Daily Kos

Updated: Diebold Whistleblower charged with 3 Felonies

Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:31:18 AM PDT

From Huffpost via Democratic Underground.

Two Years ago Stephen Heller, an actor in LA who worked part time for the law firm of Jones Day, discovered that one of the firm's clients, Diebold, was possibly going to  disenfranchise thousands of voters in the next election.

Heller did the honorable thing, and provided this information to the California Attorney General and then Secretary of State Kevin Shelley - which ultimately resulted in the decertication of Diebold in California.

But last year Kevin Shelley was forced to resign as  Secretary of State due to a fundraising scandal.  Ah-nald promptly appointed a new Republican Secretary of State who has proceeded to Temporarily certify Diebold despite the information provided by Stephen Heller, and Heller himself is now facing criminal charges.

More over flip...

Stephen Heller is alleged to have exposed documents in Jan. & Feb. 2004 which provided smoking gun evidence that Diebold was using illegal, uncertified software in California voting machines. The docs also showed that Diebold's California attorneys (the powerful international law firm Jones Day) had told them they were in breach of the law for using uncertified software, but Diebold continued to use the uncertified software anyway.

Heller is alleged to have come across these docs while temping as a word processor at Jones Day, and he is further alleged to have taken the docs and exposed them to the bright light of day. Now, after sitting on this for 2 years, the Los Angeles District Attorney, under pressure from Jones Day, is going after this whistleblower with 3 felony charges, each of which carries the potential of time in state prison.

So tell me is it a crime to report the commission of crime now?  Apparently it is if the criminals include a large and powerful law firm like Jones Day.

Let's make this clear, folks. The docs Heller is accused of exposing were important evidence. First, they show that Diebold and their attorneys, Jones Day, conspired to mislead the California secretary of state, and that the lie they told was material, and resulted directly in the disenfranchisement of voters. Second, another document demonstrates that Diebold lied to the secretary of state when it represented that certain problems with its software were "fixed." This document, the release notes for the new software, showed that the problems were not fixed. Third, the documents showed that Diebold had been advised by Jones Day that what it had been doing with its uncertified software was illegal. Fourth, the documents show that Jones Day advised Diebold that it was subject to criminal prosecution. So in a nutshell, Diebold was defrauding the state government and taxpayers of California, and disenfranchising the voters of California. And the documents PROVE it.

The Huffpost article goes on to suggest that those who oppose the continued illegal certification of Diebold speak out in support of Heller.  I concur.  They suggest contact the relevant parties with the following talking points:

  •    Don't prosecute Stephen Heller. He's a whistleblower, not a criminal, and he should not be prosecuted.

  •    Diebold is the criminal here. Stephen Heller is alleged to have exposed Diebold's criminal activity, and that makes him a whistleblower. He should not be prosecuted.

  •    Diebold's election malfeasance strikes at the very heart of our democratic republic. Without clean elections, we don't have democracy anymore. Those who expose such crimes are whistleblowers and should not be prosecuted.

  •    America has a long history of whistleblowers exposing criminal activity, and prosecuting them is wrong; it puts a chilling effect on others who might see criminal activity and want to expose it.

You can email the Los Angeles District Attorney's office at lada@co.la.ca.us.

And of course, "a good old fashioned snail mail letter is very powerful tool":

District Attorney's Office
County of Los Angeles
210 West Temple Street, Suite 18000
Los Angeles, CA 90012-3210

Phone calls also help:

Telephone (213) 974-3512
Fax (213) 974-1484
TTY (800) 457-7778 (8:30am - 5:00pm M-F)

Update - 02-27-06 I posted this diary because California is going to be a 2006 Battleground State for Control of Congress, we can't afford to lose any ground on the issue of voting security.

Now I don't care to get involved in the Bev Harris debate - but quite a bit of the commentary on this has focused on the issue of whether or not Steve Heller actually did break the law by revealing priveledged material. And in fairness it seems that he just might have - technically, and if so he probably should face the music. But that doesn't mean he did the wrong thing. From the original LATimes peice:

Although state law protects whistle-blowers from retaliation by their employers, they can still be criminally prosecuted, said Tom Devine, legal director at the Washington, D.C.-based Government Accountability Project. "It's very rare that it's successful," he said. "It's a tactic where the primary goal may be to scare other would-be whistle-blowers rather than a realistic attempt to obtain a conviction."
And I think this is the precisely point. This prosecution is a scare tactic. My feeling is that sometimes it just may infact be neccesary to risk legal punishment in order to accomplish a far greater good. This is doctrine behind all acts of Civil Disobedience from sit-ins to marches. Those people who abuse the law, and the color of authority to accomplish their ends frequently exploit the of the law to intimidate and silence dissenters.

If CBS and Dr. Jeffrey Wigand hadn't taken the legal risks facing them, we probably still wouldn't know that nicotine is addictive.

If people like Russell Tice hadn't spoken out about the NSA domestic spying program, we still wouldn't know a thing about it.

I'm not saying the "ends justify the means", I'm simply saying there's a reason we have whistle-blower laws, there are reasons these people need to be protected from retalitation. IMO The fact that someone can be a witness and source for the California Attorney General only to be trashed by the LA District Attorney is a loophole that needs to be closed to protect all future efforts by people to speak Truth to Power. If Linda Tripp can get immunity from Ken Starr, Steve Heller deserves a decent and robust defense. Naturally, reasonable minds may disagree.

Vyan

Tags: Diebold, California, Kevin Shelley, Arnold Schwarzenegger (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 410 comments

  •  Tip Jar n/t (3.99 / 130)

    •  The law is strange (3.91 / 12)

      A woman in Kansas City was once prosecuted for practicing "random acts of kindness," by putting money in parking machines about to run out of time.  Apparently it's a crime to do that for other people and of course the city loses out on the revenue for all those parking tickets.  It's the same sort of twisted logic.  They make an example, in this case, squeal and you will be prosecuted.  

      Winning without Delay.

      by ljm on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 11:23:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is often... (none / 0)

        ...because cities have time limits on how long cars are allowed to be parked at a meter. By doing this, the woman was allowing those cars to be parked past their allotted time, since the meters are the only way to track that.
        •  I don't understand. (4.00 / 3)

          How does her action screw up their records, where the people themselves would be just as able to put in more money?  The meter presumably doesn't know who is putting in the money.

          Unless we're talking about the sort of meter that accepts credit cards, where I could see a hard limit in place..

          I'm still an Edwards supporter, and a Patriots fan. Not having the best year here...

          by Stymnus on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 02:33:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Huh? (none / 0)

          If there's a limit, then there's a limit.  It can't be overridden by someone other than the owner of the car dropping money into the meter instead of the owner of the car -- which is all that happened.
    •  Just finished my printed letter, (4.00 / 2)

      and it will be off in the mail this afternoon.  I've never written a letter to a DA before.  Will letters like this honestly make a difference?
    •  Why is Arnold afraid to have an honest election? (4.00 / 12)

      Just as Schwarzenegger needed anabolic steroids to win his bodybuilding competitions and achieve success in Hollywood, he now requires the help of a corrupt voting machine company to assure re-election in California.

      When will this outrage stop?

      •  Arnold and steroids (4.00 / 4)

        From Wikipedia (with footnotes):

        Steroid Use

        Schwarzenegger has admitted to using performance-enhancing anabolic steroids while they were legal, writing in 1977 that "[steroids] were helpful to me in maintaining muscle size while on a strict diet in preparation for a contest. I did not use them for muscle growth, but rather for muscle maintenance when cutting up." However, some bodybuilders who used the same steroid cocktails as Schwarzenegger in the 1970s dispute the notion that they were used merely for "muscle maintenance." Even Schwarzenegger has called the drugs "tissue building."(1)

        In 1999, Schwarzenegger sued Dr. Willi Heepe, a German doctor who publicly predicted an early death for the bodybuilder based on a link between steroid use and later heart problems. Because the doctor had never examined him personally, Schwarzenegger collected a DM 20,000 ($12,000 USD) libel judgment against him in a German court. In 1999 Schwarzenegger also sued and settled with Globe Magazine, a U.S. tabloid which had made similar predictions about the bodybuilder's future health. As late as 1996, a year before open heart surgery to replace an aortic valve, Schwarzenegger publicly defended his use of anabolic steroids during his bodybuilding career.(2)

        Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve; a normal heart has tricuspid valves. According to a spokesman, Schwarzenegger has not used anabolic steroids since 1990 when they were made illegal.(3) In bodybuilder slang, steroids are sometimes referred to as "Arnolds".(4)

        Schwarzenegger has had facial plastic surgery. Here's an interesting before-and-after comparison (including some of Arnold's early nude photos as well).

        •  Steroids (none / 0)

          Is a name for a large group of drugs.  Each drug serves a different purpose.  Yes, there are those that are for maintenance, "cutting", and "bulking".  When you're "on", you take them as a group, or "cycles" - for instance, a bulking cycle could be for 6-weeks, etc.  

          Arnold had the genetic structure suited for bodybulding.  Granted, he got "bigger" all of a sudden when he was 19.  But waaaay back then, athletes didn't take the amounts taken today and the drugs were VERY different than what is available now (and the last 15-years).  After the Iron Curtain fell apart, you had steroids coming to this country of such purity.

          Anyways, I could go on about steroids, but really it has nothing to do with this topic.  What does fit well with this topic is Arnold's corruption and bad, bad governing.  I miss the days when Arnold was a charismatic ex-bodybuilder, action movie guy.  During the 80's he brought attention to a (at the time), a fantastic sport (bodybuilding) and while I was initially piqued due to Lori Bowen, Deborah Diana and Rachel McLish, Arnold really showed me that bodybuilders could go on and be successful in other areas.

          So, when you come here and speak about politics, keep it within that realm.  The lot of you on this site know practically nothing about steroids, or even bodybuilding.  Mind you, this ain't a rub:  it's just the goshdarn truth.  Sites like Wikipedia (even though I love that site), will continue to generalize steroid use - what athlete has entirely spelt the beans on steroids?  Oh, yeah:  NONE.  And it constantly grates on me when I come here and expect some type of enlightening discussion and well, see something like this:  a topic that has nothing to do about steroids and is all about politics.  And no, past steroid use has nothing to do Arnold's inability to govern NOW.  It's just Arnold's inability to govern.  There are plenty of ex-athletes who have taken steroids who go on to live upstanding lives.  And I don't see any of 'em constantly berated as Arnold is about this. At least Arnold had the balls to admit to past steroid use.  Geez.

          Also, there's  only a few things I trust Arnold on:  his knowledge about weight training.  He knows LOTS about that; as for diet and supplements?  Ick, wouldn't listen to him.  I think he followed whatever Franco was doing on diet.  That's it.

          O 4 O: Oregon for Obama!

          by smugbug on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 04:11:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oops, point taken (none / 0)

          My own reply about steroids was meant for another discussion, so sorry about that -- it hijacked the thread. If a couple people zero it out, I wouldn't mind.
    •  legal defenses (4.00 / 4)


      1. Lack of criminal intent.  One of the elements of many crimes is intent.  There are lesser included offenses, e.g. killing someone without intent isn't murder, but is prosecutable as manslaughter.  

      2. Competing harms.  This is the legal basis by which e.g. you don't get convicted of burglary if you broke into the house to save the baby from the fire while its parents were away.  In the present case, saved the voters from massive vote fraud while the public officials weren't looking.  

      3.  Having established (1) and gotten the charges reduced accordingly (i.e. if the state decides it can't prove criminal intent), will probably make it easier to use (2).  

      And meanwhile, if Diebold's law firm was in cahoots rather than advising their client to clean up its act, someone should be prosecuting them for participating in conspiracy to commit fraud and possibly for suborning perjury.  A class action civil suit by voters would also be interesting.  
      •  he didn't remove the documents accidentally (none / 1)

        He clearly intended to take the documents, so I don't see how you can establish (1).  Whistleblowing is all about (2), not (1).
        •  good point but... (none / 0)

          i would think that motive in a robbery would have to include some kind of a gain on the part of the thief. did he intend to steal the documents to enrich himself? it doesn't seem so. why can't he argue that he thought that he was, albeit unwillingly, going to be put in the position of aiding and abetting what he thought was a crime? therefore, he was protecting himself.

          I didn't get Jack from Abramoff...I'm not a Republican!

          by nonnie9999 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:43:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  there are no requirements of motive (none / 1)

            Demonstrating motive isn't a requirement, only intent.  Stealing is a crime even if it's selfless.  The theft is morally justifiable, but the law is a different matter, and the legal argument of intent is what I was addressing.

            > why can't he argue that he thought that he was, albeit unwillingly, going to be put in the position of aiding and abetting what he thought was a crime?

            Well, he can argue it but it obviously isn't true.  He neither was going to be in the position of aiding and abetting a crime, nor did he think he was.  He was simply a temp typist -- not a criminal enterprise -- who came across some documents that he thought indicated that a crime had already been committed.  The documents were part of a defense strategy for addressing a criminal charge.  Mounting a legal defense is not itself a crime.

            •  No actually... (none / 0)

              from what I can tell, the crime was ongoing.  Diebold was attempting to hide their failure to meet certification requirement from the Attorney General.  So it was both past and future criminal activity that Heller disclosed.

              The Reality-Based Community Our Truth - Our Soundtrack

              by Vyan on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:15:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Where is the document that Heller encountered (none / 0)

                that demonstrates that attempt?  In any case, Heller wasn't aiding or abetting a crime by working for the law firm or neglecting to steal their documents.
                •  The LA Times said the following... (none / 0)

                  Link.

                  In the memos, a Jones Day attorney opined that using uncertified voting systems violated California election law and that if Diebold had employed an uncertified system, Alameda County could sue the company for breaching its $12.7-million contract.

                  The documents also revealed that Diebold's attorneys were exploring whether the California secretary of state had the authority to investigate the company for alleged election law violations.

                  The Reports were published by the Oakland Tribune  (I haven't yet found a copy), but the Times went on and described events after that publication (which were in fact future events)...

                  A subsequent report by the secretary of state's office found that Diebold had marketed and sold its systems before gaining federal qualification and had installed uncertified software on election machines in 17 counties.

                  So the memos document that installing uncertified machines violated election law -- and even when warned Diebold went on to do exactly that.

                  Vyan

                  The Reality-Based Community Our Truth - Our Soundtrack

                  by Vyan on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 09:44:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You didn't answer my question. (none / 1)

                    Where is the document that Heller encountered that indicated that Diebold was attempting to hide their failure to meet certification requirement from the Attorney General?

                    You link indicates that an attorney opined that doing something that violates California election law violates California election law -- whoopee.  And that if Diebold did something they could be sued for, then they could be sued for it -- whoopee.  These are neutral in regard to whether Diebold broke a law or could be sued.

                    You then mention a report by the secretary of state's office -- but that's not one of the documents that Heller saw at Jones Day.  I guess you offered this to demonstrate that the crime was ongoing, but you already made that statement and I didn't challenge it.  Instead, I asked a quite specific question, to which you did not respond.

              •  How is that a "crime"? (none / 0)

                Show me somewhee in the law where that's a jailable offense.
  •  Recommended -- Important stuff (4.00 / 35)

    Sometimes it seems that all we have between ourselves and the culture of corruption that permeates Washington and state/local systems of goverment are those honest people known as whistleblowers.

    Whistleblowers are often vilified as people with chips on their shoulders, character disordered, or paranoid. But they are usually ordinary people who work hard, care about their jobs and their society, and believe they can make a difference.

    Daily Kos readers should support Stephen Heller, a stand-up guy trying to save democracy in California.

    Thanks for this diary.

    War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

    by Valtin on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:35:41 AM PDT

    •  rep. Jim Mcdermott made this point (4.00 / 17)

      at a house party fundraiser recently. His ongoing, lengthy & expensive court battle with Repubs is due to determination to make an example of him, to penalize a well-known whistleblower so severely, others will back off from doing the same. He frames it as a free speech issue.

      I'm planning a benefit show by the Seattle performing arts community--an eccentric cabaret a step or two above "Let's have a show in my Dad's barn!"--to help him out.

      •  btw, M. Carvin of Jones Day is plaintiff's counsel (4.00 / 12)

        ... in Boehner v McDermott.

        Michael Carvin is also THE point man nationally in strategic litigation to roll back affirmative action doctrine.

        Not sure he's involved here -- Day Jones is a big, bipartisan DC shop -- but he does have an interest in voting systems. (Carvin led the Florida 2000 Bush team in oral argument at FL Supreme Court, in the run-up to Bush v Gore at SCOTUS.)

        The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

        by RonK Seattle on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 11:00:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "Free" Speech (4.00 / 3)

        is being privatized, y'know.  Them's thats got the bucks get the speech, the rest of us have to stay in the free speech pen and be ignored.

        As we now see, the wrong kind of whistleblowers are to pay for their free speech with hard time.

        However, blowing the whistle on Bill (or Bill's whistleblower), or any liberal for that matter, gets the whistleblower a free speech on national TV.

  •  Sounds like they are (4.00 / 19)

    going after him to make an example out of him.  All too often this kind of thing happens to whistle-blowers.  It's a damn shame.  Maybe the taxpayers should go after Diebold and Jones Day.

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:38:38 AM PDT

  •  Let's hope he will found not guilty (4.00 / 9)

    after a trail that digs deep into this issue exposing the crimes of Diebold and those that benefit from those crimes.

    Where can I donate to a defense fund?

    I've chosen quality-of-life over financial gain so often I'm now completely broke.

    by coldCanadian on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:43:08 AM PDT

  •  More education on jury nullification (4.00 / 7)

    Spreading the message about jury nullification is probably the best way we can help folks who break the law as a matter of conscience.

    But jury nullification is a knife that cuts both ways.

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    •  Not that the judge will ever (4.00 / 3)

      let the lawyers argue that at trial
    •  I kind of doubt if an L.A. County jury (4.00 / 5)

      can be found that would vote unanimously to convict on a felony count.

      I wonder if there are any lesser included misdemeanors that they might settle for.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:30:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not just about conviction (3.92 / 13)

        Although conviction is the worst that can happen. But the charges are already a blow to the person... because of the stress, the legal costs, the fact that you may have to explain on applications, etc. that you were arrested for a felony, or that it is on every cop's computer if you get stopped for a ticket, etc.

        Do not underestimate the power of the state to screw up your life, even if you are later acquitted/redeemed, etc.

        War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

        by Valtin on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 11:27:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not a problem on applications (none / 0)

          All the ones I have seen ask if you have been convicted of a felony. I don't think anyone has the right to ask if you have ever been charged with a felony.

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" Mohandas Gandhi

          by baracon on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 03:38:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Verbatim from my Recredentialing Contract (none / 1)

            ... with a major managed care firm. Such contract allows an otherwise licensed professional to see patients and get paid. Loss of such credentialling can significantly impact one's abilty to practice their medical specialty. (Note: the date of this form is 2/20/2006, so this is not old news.)

            13. Have you ever been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime (other than traffic), including those under the Ciminial Control Act, or are you currently under indictment for an alleged crime?   Yes   No

            So, yes, they DO ask. Also, my main point was that there are MANIFOLD effects of state repression. I have, as a psychologist, seen the effects passed down as well to the next generation (who suffer loss of attention and caring due to their parents' stress at being victimized).

            So, who wouldn't think twice before becoming a whistleblower, even if it meant justice served, if the costs are so high? It's a wonder that we have whistleblowers at all! (And may be why one needs sometimes to have a secondary agenda to motivate one to come forward.)

            They don't call it repression for nothing!

            War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

            by Valtin on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 05:45:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This should not be an issue (none / 1)

      this is too crazy to get to a jury--these charges should be thrown out by the judge. "Burglary" and "receiving stolen property" for revealing confidential communications is flat-out absurd.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 03:27:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well it seems to me, that (4.00 / 11)

    according to the article he did not disclose Diebold documents but rather internal attorney memoranda.  That is quite different.  The attorney work-product doctrine is as close to sacrosanct as we have.  Even murderes and child rapists deserve to have their attorneys deliberate in confidence and even explore all sorts of caca-mamie theories of defense.  We would all go ballistic if those documents were leaked to prosecutors.
    •  Well, that's a fair point... (4.00 / 13)

      priveledged documentation is priveledged for a reason.  However, the priveledge (as I understand it) extends to past deeds, not current or future crimes which are being deliberated and planned, as was the case with Deibold.  I believe that Attorneys do have a responsiblity to report potential future crimes, even those by their clients  - and can be held liable for failure to divulge such information.

      But then again, due to too many episodes of "The Practice" - I could be wrong.

      Vyan

      The Reality-Based Community Our Truth - Our Soundtrack

      by Vyan on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:56:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (4.00 / 5)

        I haven't read the memos to know precisely what they were talking about.  But certainly, no matter how distasteful you may find Diebold's activities you have to concede that they have a right to confer with attorneys in private and to develop privately strategies to challenege rulings by such entities as Sec of State, etc.
      •  You're wrong - there were past deeds (4.00 / 7)

        From just one the documents:

        This memorandum briefly discusses the applicable California law regarding certification of voting systems and identifies provisions of the Agreement that Alameda County might contend were breached if it was provided with an uncertified voting system. This memorandum does not analyze potential defenses or counter arguments that can be made by Diebold ( e.g., the Secretary of State's failure to establish or enforce specific regulations requiring certification of new versions, etc.). Instead, the memorandum focuses on the potential arguments that might be made by Alameda County.

        II. ISSUES AND SHORT ANSWERS

        A. Issue: Whether the use of an uncertified voting system is illegal? Short Answer: Yes. All voting systems must be approved by the Secretary of State before use in any election.  See Cal. Elec. Code § 19201.

        B. Issue: Whether Diebold breached the Agreement if it provided Alameda County with an uncertified voting system? Short Answer: Most likely. If Diebold provided Alameda County with an uncertified voting system that was used in an election, then Diebold most likely breached provisions of the Agreement requiring Diebold to comply with all applicable laws.

        C. Issue: What are the consequences if Diebold breached the Agreement? Short Answer: If Diebold materially breached the Agreement, Alameda County can terminate the Agreement and sue for damages.

        PDF:
        http://www.countthevote.org/...

        •  Oops (none / 1)

          This guy is fucked then.

          The job of the law firm is to protect the rights of the client. Notifying them that they broke the law and what their maximum possible rights are in spite of that is not conspiracy. It's a good legal defense.

          It's conspiracy if the law firm helped Diebold break the law. His only defense is to prove that the law firm helped them break the law - not just advise them of what loopholes might exist that they can sneak through.

          -6.00, -7.03
          Obama '08

          by johnsonwax on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 12:42:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  However (4.00 / 7)

      would you consider those documents evidence of an ongoing criminal consipiracy?  And was that criminal conspiracy not to defraud (directly) the State and (by Proxy) the voters of California?

      Couldn't you therefore argue that the AC privilege not only did not apply in this situation, but, that  the Attorney had an obligation under the rules of professional counduct to breach the confidence under those circumstances?

      Given that can you not make an argument that you shouldn't criminally prosecute an agent of the law firm  for disclosing documents the attornies  had a legal  and ethical duty to disclose but failed to so do?

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:00:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Depends (4.00 / 5)

        See above.  I haven;t read the memos, os I don't know what they say.

        But developing a strategy or opinions that the Sec of State does not have the authority to decertify (even if the opinion is wrong) is not conspiracy.  

      •  There's a crime-fraud exception (4.00 / 6)

        to the attorney-client privilege at the federal level.  I would be very surprised if it doesn't also exist under California law.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:27:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They are obviously not evidence of conspiracy. (none / 1)

        I'm as negative about Diebold as the next progressive, but a document discussing what arguments the prosecutor is likely to make is no way no how evidence of a crime, a conspiracy, or anything of the sort.
    •  Sweet martyrdom (none / 0)

      I don't know all the facts or all of the legal arguments.

      I think that, legally, attorney-client privilege should be sacred, but, for me, if this involved clear-cut intentional election-rigging and not just stupid IT decisions, this would be the attorney-client privilege version of the "ticking nuclear time bomb problem."

      I wouldn't waterboard anyone, but I probably would slug someone if I really generally sincerely thought that slugging someone would get me the code needed to stop a nuclear time bomb that was ticking right in front of me. Then I hope I'd turn myself into the authorities and accept the legal consequences.

      In the case of the Diebold documents, if I thought the government was really intentionally rigging the elections, not just using imperfect software, I think I would justify violating my sacred trust on the ground that potentially saving democracy would trump the attorney-client privile concept. But then I hope I would turn myself into the authorities after I'd done my best to save democracy and accept the consequences. Or, if I felt the government was truly beyond reform, either go into exile or become a partisan.

    •  Ridiculous assertion. (4.00 / 2)

      There is no attorney client privilege for documents that concern an ongoing crime.

      Furthermore, only the client may assert attorney-client privilege; Jones Day may not.

      Violating attorney client privilege is not a criminal act; the client has a remedy at law by suing Jones Day for malpractice.  It is a civil; not a criminal matter. So under what theory do you think he should be charged criminally?

      It would be helpful to know exactly the statute or ordinance under which he is bieng charged.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 12:14:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  having now skimmed the documents (4.00 / 4)

        It is clear that they dealt with past and not future or ongoing activities.

        Furthermore, the documents did not even involve communications with clients, but internal attorney work-product, i.e., internal attorney deliberations.  Disclosing them was highly improper.

        •  what firm do you work for? (none / 0)

          Is it the law firm in question? What are your ties to this?

          Infidels in all ages have battled for the rights of man, and have at all times been the advocates of truth and justice... Robert Ingersol

          by BMarshall on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 01:16:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're right on principle, and I'm (none / 1)

          not reading any of this clear enough to know what the "facts" stated here really are.

          But I think what this really boils down to is an issue of intellectual and moral purity. Someone who's truly pure would probably always side with you on this issue.

          Someone who's less pure and more pragmatic might side with me IF the documents gave fairly convincing evidence that the defendants were seriously plan to rig an election, not just using or selling a defective product.

          I respect your position more, but I just could never ever keep a secret like that if I had it even if I agreed with you 100 percent. I would pretty much explode if I had such a secret until I had posted it on every blog on Google. Which is probably why I would make a really, really rotten spy. :-)

           

        •  "highly improper" is criminal? (none / 0)

          As I said in my post earlier, the fucking asshole client - Diebold - has a remedy for impropriety - it can sue Jones Day for malpractice - and some asshole insurance company will wind up paying.

          So who gives a shit whether Diebold or Jones Day look bad? Not me.

          My understanding is that if an attorney has evidence that his/her client is breaking the law on an ongoing basis - which seems to be the facts here - they have a duty to withdraw from representation.  Nicht wahr?

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 02:11:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not the point (none / 1)

            The point is that internal attorney deliberations on how to best advise the client are near sacred. Unless attorneys are actively participating in an ongoing corruption (not the case here) there is absolutely no justification whatsoever to divulge these secrets.

            How would you like it if you went to the lawyers say for divorce and then someone decided to publish your secrets (or your attorney's approach to the case) to the entire world?  Would you be so blase about it then?

            Everyone deserves to have their lawyers' confidence.  

            •  But it is not criminal (none / 0)

              Note that the charge does not mention "privilege" but instead speaks of "burglary" and "receiving stolen property".

              It's a while since I was in law school and I haven't ever practiced in a firm, but it is my understanding that you don't go to jail for an ethics violation unless it involved violation of some criminal law.

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 03:36:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Stealing firm's private documents (none / 0)

                and publishing them sounds pretty criminal to me.
                •  Publishing? (none / 0)

                  The story says the guy turned the documents over to the proper authorities because they were evidence of an ongoing fraud.  How is that criminal?

                  "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:33:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Because (a) he stole them (4.00 / 2)

                    and (b) tehy are not evidence of ongoing anything.  Go and read the documents.
                  •  No, the story does NOT say that (4.00 / 2)

                    But good try.

                    In fact HE turned them over to other people who then turned them in it appears.

                    ...but not your own facts.

                    by slouise217 on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 02:11:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He stole them? (none / 0)

                      Rather than nmade copies of the documents?  He "stole" the originals? Or do you mean he made "unauthorized copies"?  Which is it - or are you saying it's the same thing?  And if so - then what is your theory that making unauthorized copies is the same as stealing the originals?

                      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                      by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:45:22 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Okay.... (4.00 / 2)

                        Your post said "The story says the guy turned the documents over to the proper authorities...."

                        But the diary did NOT say that. The story says "he provided that information..." Weasel words to avoid saying what really happened. And the original article from which this was taken did NOT say that either.

                        And that is NOT what happened - he did NOT turn the documents over, as you claim.

                        HE did NOT turn the documents over to the proper authorities.

                        He turned them over to others, who turned them in to authorities.

                        I think YOU may have been confused by the 1st reply to your comment.

                        MY reply was to YOUR comment, not to the other reply to you.

                        YOU said that the story asserts that he was the one that gave the DA the papers, and he was NOT that person. He removed them from the attorney's office. That's the crime he's charged with.

                        What does the article say? "Bev Harris continues, "Jim March, another investigator for Black Box Voting, and I immediately took the documents to both the California Attorney General's office and to Kevin Shelley, who was then the California Secretary of State.

                        ...but not your own facts.

                        by slouise217 on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 11:29:21 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Theft (none / 1)

                It seems to me that the crime is the theft of the documents.  That it seems to me is no different that if the temporary worker had stolen the petty cash.  The documents weren't his, he has no priviledge to take them or disclose their existence, I think that is theft.

                As to the issue of an ongoing crime, it also seems to me inspite of what was called ridiculous above that an attorney is always entitled to tell his client what the law is, what laws they are breaking and, if there is some agrument around the law that too.  It seems to me that this is what these memos did.  As long as Jones Day didn't participate in the crime, it had no obligation to rat out its client as there was no imminent threat of bodily harm.

                While we all think that it is important that these documents and this matter were brought to the public attention and we can all hope that some smart person on the jury will vote to acquit and let the guy go even in spite of the law and evidence, it seems to me that we must remember that many great advancements in America were made by civil disobedience.  Martin Luther King, Jr. spent many nights in jail for his civil disobedience.

                Further, lest the consipracy theorist above thinks I have some conflict, I work for myself in a small firm in Colorado.  Only contact with Jones Day is when they represented a large English conglomerate buying out a client of mine.  They were assholes so no love lost.

      •  err . . . (none / 0)

        . . . what's the exact crime being perpetrated?  
    •  Here is the thing... (4.00 / 2)

      ... the charges are as follows:

      Stephen Heller was charged in Los Angeles Superior Court with felony access to computer data, commercial burglary and receiving stolen property.

      The usual disclaimer that I don't know the particulars of these charges, but I don't think the A/C. privilege is more than tangentially relevant to any of these charges.

      •  Totally absurd (none / 1)

        This is like charging someone who brings evidence of a crime - say burglary tools - into the police station with possession of burglary tools.

        The guy had access to the computer - and since when is evidence of a crime able to be categorized as "commercial property."

        The idea that evidence of a crime is a protectible intelletual property is one that is not going to fly with a jury and any defense lawyer worth his salt.

        Heller would be well advised to file his lawsuit against Diebold, Jones, Day and LA County now.

        He may never have to work again.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 02:16:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  wait. (none / 1)

          Was Heller even working on Diebold-related matters?  Or did he just get curious about what attorneys at the firm were doing and go snooping?

          Show me anywhere that these documents encourage the commission of a c rime.

        •  The problem was (none / 1)

          that there was no evidence of the ongoing crime.

          And if the client for example gave the lawyer a gun, even if it was used in murder, a lawyer or the employee of the lawfirm would be prohibited from turning it over.  And they most certainlt would be prohibited from turning over internal discussion of how to attack ballistic evidence.

          •  WTF? (none / 0)

            So the best way to hide a murder weapon is to give it to your lawyer????  

            That reminds me of the Samuari code (as I understand it) of absolute loyalty to whoever's paying you.  That's not noble, it's a way of ensuring plenty of work for the Samuari class.  It's interesting, because it puts the good of the Samuari as a class above the self-preservation of individuals in that class if they end up fighting each other, but that's not what I'd call noble.  Noble is loyalty to principles of justice.  Letting lawyers be the legal system's equivalent of Samuari is pernicious.  It rots both our legal system in general and the personal ethics of lawyers.

            We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

            by david78209 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 04:52:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nonetheless (4.00 / 2)

              That is the way it is.

              An attorney-client confidentiality is nearly absolute.  In the absence of evidence involving attorney collaborating with client to violate the law, the attorney-client communication and attorney work-product (which is what this was) is sacrosanct.  What this guy did was absolutely wrong, unethical, and unprofessional.  And given the fact that he took his employer's property and distrubuted it without authorization, he committed theft.  It is no different if he took their pens and gave them out on the street corner.  Law firm's most precious possession is its work product.  He stole it.

              •  But he didn't "hand it out ... (none / 0)

                on the street corner." He took what sure sounds like evidence of wrongdoing to what sounds to me like the right authorities -- the district attorney and the secretary of state, wasn't it?  The DA, for sure, is a lawyer.  If he gets something that might be stolen, couldn't he just return it to the rightful owner privately?  If he realizes it's evidence of something he should act on, shouldn't whistleblower laws come into play?  If imminent bodily harm to someone justifies an exception to legal ethics, possible theft of elections in a democracy should justify the same exception.

                I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the laws are written otherwise; that's one way lawyers earn their reputation.  They're hired mouths, well paid to put their sense of what's right into suspended animation.  But it's not even good for lawyers.  Trial law especially is the great haven of, and nurturer of, articulate sociopaths.

                We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

                by david78209 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:16:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't believe this is true (4.00 / 3)

                  I believe he GAVE the info to Bev Harris' colleagues and associates, and THEY turned it over to the authorities.

                  ...but not your own facts.

                  by slouise217 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:50:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I bet you're right. (none / 0)

                    If he took the stuff to Black Box Voting (is that Bev Harris's outfit?) the sly thing would have been to do it anonymously.

                    I'd like to think that if he took it straight to the DA and the DA didn't think there was any illegality, they would have told him so and advised him to destroy any copies he had.  The DA's a lawyer, so he ought to be able to tell a well intentioned would-be whistleblower, "Since there's nothing indictable, going public with this would be illegal.  If it were indictable, you would have been covered by whistleblower laws."  Could/does that happen?

                    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

                    by david78209 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:11:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  You are insane. (none / 0)

                So - if an employee takes a gun fromt he workplace that has his employer's fingerprints on it - and it's involved in a crime - that's burglary?   When he takes it to turn it over to the proper authorities.  You're fucking crazy dude - that is no crime.  And either is this.

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:28:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The documents themselves are not (4.00 / 2)

                  criminal.  A gun could in theory be (like if possession of guns is per se illegal within the city limits).

                  I am asking you what if it was a person on trial for his life and the typist decided to hand over to the DA internal memoranda where the lawyers between themselves admit that a crime may have been committed but are trying to figure out how to present the best defense.  Is that OK?  If so, then our justice system as we know it is dead.

                  Attorney-work product is not evidence of a crime and should under no circumstances be revealed to anyone, unless the attorney is actually advising the client to commit a crime.

                  As an afterthought.  Did you actually bother to look at the memos?

                  •  No - it wouldn't be "OK" (none / 0)

                    but it wouldn't be a crime - it would be a civil tort - do you not understand the difference?

                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:37:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually it would very much be a crime (none / 1)

                      A crime of theft of documents that don't belong to you.  The documents belong to the firm.  They are in fact the firm's most prized possession.  Stealing them to sell/distribute/give away to unathorized parties is theft.
          •  WRONG. (none / 0)

            The story says:  "The docs also showed that Diebold's California attorneys (the powerful international law firm Jones Day) had told them they were in breach of the law for using uncertified software, but Diebold continued to use the uncertified software anyway."

            You're saying that's not evidence of an ongoing violation of the law?   What are you smoking? CAn you read?

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:30:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree.... (none / 0)

              the crime was indeed ongoing, which may indeed mitigate the attorney-client priviledge issues. I don't believe that an attorney can learn of a future crime, such as a rape - and then fail to disclose it, so it's reasonable to Mr. Heller to use this fact in his defense.

              Vyan

              The Reality-Based Community Our Truth - Our Soundtrack

              by Vyan on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 09:57:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Ummmm.... no (none / 1)

              The documents are not evidence of ongoing crime.  They are merely evidence that the attorenys may have said something to the client.  (Actually they are not evidence of that either because these documents were internal).

              There is no evidence whatever that the documents advised the client how to keep breaking the law.

              •  WRONG - again (none / 0)

                The point is not whether or not the attorneys told them to keep violatng the law.  If the documents demonstrated that the "client" was ignoring the advice of counsel to stop violating the law, that is itself evidence of a continuing violation.

                Once again - providing evidence to the proper authorities is not stealing.

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 04:41:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The documents were (none / 0)

                  internal.  So they don't even fall under that rule because they were not prepared for the client.

                  Second, it is irrelevant if the client was violating the advice of the attorney.  They either broke the law or didn't.  It is wholly irrelevant to the question what the attorneys told them.

                  •  It Doesn't matter (none / 0)

                    You apparently just don't get it.  Violating attorney-client privilege is not a crime.  It's a civil wrong.

                    Beside, under your logic, Daniel Ellsburg should have been convicted of "stealing" the Pentagon papers.  And he wasn't.  Because there was a public policy bias in favor of the whistleblower.

                    Same here.  

                    Diebold's remedy is to sue Jones Day.  Jones Day'
                    s remedy is to sue the temp firm or Heller.

                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 06:29:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Violating A/C privilege may not be a (none / 0)

                      crime.

                      Stealing documents is.

                      Daniel Ellsberg was charged with theft, conspiracy, and espionage.  The only reason he went free is because of government misconduct in the case (breaking into his psychiatrist's office) not because there was "public policy bias" in his favor.

                      •  Wrong again (none / 0)

                        "The only reason he went free is because of government misconduct in the case (breaking into his psychiatrist's office"

                        Actually, the Ellsburg case was dismissed because the government withheld the information about the break-in from defense lawyers - it wasn't  the break-in itself.

                        And if violating A/C is not a crime - why did you bring it in to the discussion in the first place.

                        Now we  have isolated the issue - is it "stealing" a document when the intent (and you must prove intent in a burglary/theft prosectuion - it's an element of the crime)is to turn it over to the proper regulator authority?

                        There must be a mens rea to prosecute a crime - and once again, that is the reason for the gun with fingerprints analogy.  If someone takes the gun from his employer in order to enrich himself - that is theft.  If he takes the same gun from the same employer and turns it over to the sheriff for fingerprint analysis - it's not theft.

                        There is nor real crime here - and if this guy has even a halfway decent attorney - he's going to walk.

                        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 09:01:50 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  the intent is not to (none / 0)

                          "commit the crime" but to "take" the documents.

                          In other words if you were cleaning your desk and a piece of paper accidentally fell into your briefcase, and you took it home, you are not guilty of theft.

                          Also, if you believed you owned the paper in question, you may not be guilty.

                          But an error of law, i.e., that you knew you were taking something that doesn't belong to you, but didn't think that the law prohibited such a taking is irrelevant.  You are still guilty.

                          (As for Ellsberg, I meant the whole episode caused the dismissal.  But as you can see, if not for that misconduct he would be spending the rest of his life in jail).

                          •  I can't believe you are spouting this crap. (none / 0)

                            If your mental set is that you are taking the documents to turn over to the proper authorities - you do not have the required mens rea.  If you are taking the documents to "take the documents" or profit from them - you do.

                            Jesus - have you ever done any criminal defense work?  

                            If a parent takes a bag of his kid's dope to the cops, the cops do not arrest the parent for possession.

                            If someone finds a firearm and takes it to the police - they are not charged with CCW.

                            If I take eveidence of a crime belonging to my employer to the proper authorities - it isn't burglary.

                            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                            by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 10:21:54 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  I guess you know nothing (none / 0)

                              about the specific intent element.

                              The intent refers to the intent to take without authorization.  He did that.  End of story.  The reason why he did that is immaterial.  The only defense is that he a) either did not take or b) did not take with intent to deprive or c) thought that the object in question belonged to him (which is a subset of b).

                              http://www.lawspirit.com/... (emphasis mine).

                              b. Mistake:  Similarly, a mistake of fact is more likely to be enough to negate the required specific intent. [13]

                              Example: D breaks and enters, in an attempt to carry away something which he mistakenly thinks belongs to him; D will probably be acquitted of burglary, where mistake will generally not negate a general intent (e.g., the intent to commit the breaking and entering by itself).

                              ###

                              4. Mistake of law: It is especially hard for D to prevail with a defense based on "mistake of law." [27]

                              a. Generally no defense: As a general rule, "mistake of law is no defense." More precisely, this means that the fact that D mistakenly believes that no statute makes his conduct a crime does not furnish a defense. [27]

                              Example: D, who is retarded, does not realize that unconsented-to intercourse is a crime. D has unconsented-to intercourse with V. D's ignorance that unconsented-to intercourse is a crime will not be a defense; so long as D intended the act of intercourse while knowing that V did not consent, he is guilty.

                              i. Reasonable mistake: In this core "D mistakenly believes that no statute makes his conduct a crime" situation, even a reasonable mistake about the meaning of the statute will usually not protect D. In other words, so long as the crime is not itself defined in a way that makes D's guilty knowledge a prerequisite, there is usually no "reasonable mistake" exception to the core "mistake of law is no defense" rule.

                              *Example 1: D's car has been repossessed by Finance Co. D finds the car, breaks in, and takes it back. D's belief that the car is still legally his will absolve him, because it prevents him from having the requisite mental state for theft (intent to take property which one knows or believes to belong to another). (But if D had taken his neighbor's car, his ignorance that there is a statute making it a crime to take one's neighbor's property would not be a defense.) *"

                              So the only question is whether he believed that the papers that he took were in fact his.  He certianly did not believe that.  The fact that he believed that it was no crime to take these papers does not absolve him of responsibility.

                              •  No Way, Jose. (none / 0)

                                This is typical law school blather - and has nothing to do with the real world.
                                You're example:

                                "The intent refers to the intent to take without authorization."

                                Refer to the analogy of the gun bearing fingerprints.  Employee suspects boss of murder - takes gun with fingerprints to the police.  He "takes" without authorization. So that's a mistake of law? Horseshit. You're telling me that's burglary?  Bullshit.

                                Making copies of an employers' election-related documents, evidencing possible election law violations, to turn over to the Secretary of State without the employers consent is not burglary.

                                Tell you what - bet you $100.00 this guy is never convicted.

                                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 11:58:31 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Not being convicted (none / 1)

                                  and not being charged are very different propositions.  The jury can have all sorts of sympathies  to him for whatever reason.  OJ was acquitted too.

                                  But the DA was correct to charge him.  And based on the evidence he should be convicted.

                                  •  Preposterous!!!! (none / 0)

                                    You know, I really enjoy a good argument, so thanks!

                                    That being said:

                                    "But the DA was correct to charge him.  And based on the evidence he should be convicted."

                                    So, are you saying in the analogy of the gun-bearing-fingerprints-evidence-of-murder that the DA would be correct to charge the employee who carried the gun in a plastic bag into the Homicide Detectives office with burglary?  Cause if you're not saying that - then you're back in the blather-patch.

                                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                    by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 12:59:19 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  If you broke into my house (none / 1)

                                      and stole my gun, yes that would be burglary.  even if that gun is evidence of the crime.
                                      •  The guy didn't break into the computer (none / 0)

                                        or the office he was working in - he had permission to be there.  

                                        Again, look at the gun analogy.  Say the employee sees a gun in the boss's desk. Takes the gun to the cops.  Burglary it ain't.

                                        What if I'm a guest in your house and pick up documents that show that you cheated on your income tax.

                                        The IRS is going to give me a reward if they recover from you.

                                        Let's look at California:

                                        The California burglary statute forbids burglary of locked motor vehicles, unlocked railroad cars, motor homes, inhabited campers, etc., as well as structures. (Penal Code § 459.) First-degree burglary includes, in addition to structures, a vessel designed for habitation, a floating home, and a trailer coach. (Penal Code § 460(a).) All other kinds of burglary are in the second degree. (Penal Code § 460(b).)

                                        The crime itself consists of "entry" into an enumerated area "with intent to commit grand or petit larceny or any felony . . . ." (Penal Code § 459.)

                                        You read that - it requires proof of "intent to commit grand or petit larceny."  If the intent was to make copies of documents and turn them over to the proper authorities, there is no criminal intent.

                                        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                        by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 02:13:33 PM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                        •  First of all (none / 0)

                                          you don't know if he broke in or not into the computer.

                                          Second, there is also theft being charged in addition to burglary.  So if you are a guest in my house and steal documents showing that I cheated on my taxes that may not be burglary, but it is theft.  Same if I am your boss and you broke into my desk and stole my gun.  It is theft.  I don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend.  Show me where the California statute exempts theft if done "with good intentions of uncovering criminal activity."

                                          •  Because it requires - as an element (none / 0)

                                            of the crime - the intent to commit grand or petit theft.  Theft involves unjust enrichment.  If the documents - or the gun - are taken with the intent to turn them over to the authorities - it's not theft.

                                            Why can't you grasp the concept?

                                            Why can an undercover cop walk around with 2 ounces of blow and not be committing a crime?  Because there is no mens rea.

                                            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                            by bobdevo on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 06:03:51 PM PDT

                                            [ Parent ]

                                            •  It does NOTrequire (none / 0)

                                              unjust enrichment.  All theft requires is an intention to take something that doesnt belong to you.

                                              In your world people would be free to break into other's houses as long as they intended to help the police, and not enrich themselves.  But that is not the case.  If you break into someone's house with the intention to take stuff that you know does not belong to you that's burglary.

                                              A cop walking around with drugs is technically guilty of possession.  All intent requires is intent to possess.  Of course we don't prosecute as a matter of discretion as part of public policy.  The same public policy concerns do not apply to people revealing attorney work-product.

                                              •  Balderdash! (none / 0)

                                                You're flat wrong.  The statue specifically says "intent to commit grand or petit larceny."

                                                The determining factor between grand and petit larceny is the value of the item "taken".  In this case, the item was a copy of a document.  What is the value of a copy of a document?  At Kinko's its 15 cents a page.

                                                You said: "In your world people would be free to break into other's houses as long as they intended to help the police, and not enrich themselves"

                                                In point of fact, this happens ALL the time, when the police encourage persons to do just that, to bring them evidence of a crime, as a way around illegal search and seizure issues, which only apply to those acting under color of authority.

                                                You clearly do not interact in the real world of criminal prosecution.

                                                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                by bobdevo on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 07:31:48 AM PDT

                                                [ Parent ]

                                                •  Nonsense (none / 0)

                                                  If police encouraged you, you are an agent of the police and it is a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and therefore subject to the requirements of the same.

                                                  The value of a document is not 15 cents.  It is infinitely more valuable then that. It includes the work of the attorneys in putting together that document (at $300-1000 an hour).

                                                  So you are saying that I can today, after getting home from work start ransacking my neighbors houses in hopes of finding some pot to bring over to the police, and that no law is there to stop me?  That's the law.  You are so full of it.  i am not sure it is worth continuing this discussion with you.

                                                  •  Clueless!!!! (none / 0)

                                                    "The value of a document is not 15 cents.  It is infinitely more valuable then that. It includes the work of the attorneys in putting together that document (at $300-1000 an hour)."

                                                    Try to get those damages in a judgment.

                                                    "If police encouraged you, you are an agent of the police and it is a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and therefore subject to the requirements of the same."

                                                    Try to get evidence thrown out on this basis - that the police "encouraged" a private citizen to bring in evidence.  It'll happen once in 10,000 times.

                                                    "I can today, after getting home from work start ransacking my neighbors houses in hopes of finding some pot to bring over to the police"

                                                    No, why do you insist upon rcreating ridiculous straw men.  What I'm saying is - if I'm in y our house and see a 20 kilo bags of coke - and take a bag to the cops - they're not gong to charge me with burglary.  

                                                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                    by bobdevo on Wed Mar 01, 2006 at 12:57:41 PM PDT

                                                    [ Parent ]

                                                    •  I am getting pretty sick (none / 0)

                                                      of your bombastic statements.  Either maintain a civil tone in the discussion or do not discuss at all.

                                                      You seem to confuse getting damages in a judgment versus the value of the thing taken.  Not everything that has value can be satisfied in a judgment.  Does your arm have a value?  if so how much?  After all it is just a collection of cells, mostly water.  The chemical composition can be obtained at a pretty low cost.  Probably less then $100.  But i am sure your arm's value is higher than that.  And it shouldn't be that difficult to get those damages in a civil action.  The taking of the documents caused all sorts of negative consequences for the firm, e.g., loss of trust by clients, etc.  That is worth real money.

                                                      Second, you seem to not know case law.  the case law is crystla clear that if you are acting as an agent of the state whether or not you are wearing a uniform or have a badge your actions are covered by the Fourth Amendment.  Police cannot ask people on the street to break into someone's house to look for drugs when they themselves are not able to do it.  It's just that simple.

                                                      Third, my argument about breaking into people's houses is not a strawman, it is exactly what you are proposing.  You suggested that as long as my "intent" is to report and obtain evidence of criminal activity and not to steal stuff, I am not committimg burglary or theft if I am taking stuff from other people's houses.  So, if my intent is to uncover criminal activity, according to you, what law am I violating is I continuously and repeatedly break into people's houses?

                                                      Fourth, you did not refute the statement that he didn't take anything to the cops, but rather went to the press.

                                                      Fifth, you apparently fail to understand the difference between discretion to not charge and not actually breaking the law.  The DA in this case chose to exercise his discretion and not waive off the violation of the law, and proceeded to charge this guy.  That he didn't have to charge him is not the point.  He is fully within his rights to do so.  And under the letter of the law, the guy is guilty.

                                                      Finally, you do not address the point of what happens if you are wrong.  What happens if you take that 20 lbs bag thinking that its coke, but its really just baking soda.  Are you of the hook for thievery?  And