Ever wonder who the 35% who still believe in Bush are?

They are people like my family.
When presented with the facts, they claim it is nothing but Democrat propaganda.
When shown that their beloved party is actually hurting them, they label it as false Democrat propaganda.
They listen religiously to Rush, and they take everything he says as truth.
They rush out to buy multiple copies of a Chicago newspaper just because it has a picture of Clinton that appears to have horns on him, from the Bulls symbol on the flipside.
They blame Democrats for their problems.

My sister for example, 2 children, and a husband that works at the mill.She blasts Democrats constantly for her families problems. I asked her when did Bush turn Democrat, she replied well you Democrats control congress.I corrected her and said First Im an Independant not a Democrat and second the house and senate are both Republican.Well she replies the Democrats in the congress wont let the Republicans do anything.I ask how are the Democrats stopping them? They have no control. All she could do is stammer and threaten to throw me out of her house.
My family voted against Gore based on the word of my uncle.His former landlord was a Gore,presumebly a cousin.
My Gore taught me to drive and was a reasonable landlord.
My uncle was a nutty Vietnam vet who has problems with every landlord. So because he had a problem with a Gore
that means his cousin is of the same type?
It is people with closed minds that follow blindly.And that goes for all parties btw.
They dont want their blind faith shown for what it is because it would strip away a false sense of security.

•  Your family reminds me of an uncle of mine

  He was as honest as they come and you could trust your daughter with him, but as he aged and became religious he became foolish. I had moved across country and had not seen him in years and when I did he started complaining about liberals. Finally, I asked what the problem was and he responded big government. This from a man whose wife and son worked for federal gov.,son inlaw-state government and daughter when she worked-county.
  The next time I saw him , he started in again and when I asked him what he was complaining about since his whole family was working for the government the asshole actually said they should have stopped hiring after they hired his family

  by saul2006 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:05:05 PM PDT

•  ColdFusion04

  DailyKos member ColdFusion04 wrote and published a whole book on this subject.  It's called Growing Up Red.  He does a great job of describing this Republican mindset.

  by Jesus was a Liberal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:07:30 PM PDT

  •  and before him, advisorjim

    Another Kossack with a book (not yet released) on this subject--advisorjim, his book being Confessions of a Former Dittohead. Fortunately, you can get the gist of it now just by reading through his old Daily Kos diaries!

    by pb on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:38:35 PM PDT

•  I'm sorry

  you have to put up with that. But just think, if after growing up in that family you still managed to keep your sanity, you are very strong indeed.

  by vickyny on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:08:16 PM PDT

•  My father in law

  is a staunch republican and had no idea about all the connections between the Bush administration and the energy/oil lobby.  Seriously, none....ofcourse, he also doesn't understand why he hasn't seen any of Bush's tax decreases.

  by tjb22 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:15:10 PM PDT

•  What I wonder is

  33% approve Bush,
  18% approve Cheney,

  Who in the hell are those strange people who approve of Bush's performance, yet dissapprove of Cheney's performance? What do they think? That Bush is better than Cheney because he merely falls down, runs into people on his bike, and chokes on pretzels, as opposed to shooting elderly men in the face?

  by assyrian64 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:16:37 PM PDT

  •  only perception

    To them, Bush still seems like a nice, folksy guy they'd want to have a beer with.  They don't care about job performance.

    by dufffbeer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:19:20 PM PDT

  •  they...

    Are the people who like Bush well enough, but don't really know who Cheney is. Note that Cheney's numbers have a large segment of "Don't Know" respondents. I should start an FAQ on this or something...

    by pb on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:40:22 PM PDT

  •  there is the latestest Pew Poll

    where they ask people to describe Bush in 1 word.  A popular one (like 5th or 6th on the list) was Christian.  Is that supposed to be a compliment?

    by pacified on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 01:19:17 AM PDT

•  Boy, can I relate...

  My family is frighteningly well-connected politically and of course, to nothing but Republicans.  They seem to be able to swallow just about everything that goes on, and even attempt to explain it to me as if I were three years old and simply can't comprehend what a fantastic job Bush and his cronies are actually doing.

  You should hear them rally against the ACLU, "commie liberals" and sometimes "militant" gays.  Being gay myself, I always get:

  "But we certainly don't mean you honey.  You're different."

  Whatever...

  by Brubs on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:19:48 PM PDT

  •  The old rule...

    "But we certainly don't mean you honey.  You're different."

    As Himmler once complained, every Nazi has his favorite Jew.

    by sagesource on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:30:10 PM PDT

  •  you'll just love this

    I occasionally go to the FreeRepublic just for a goof and to see if I can get a diary out of something over there. They have a new category. Name of category? The Homosexual Agenda, not kidding.

    They will never learn or even moderate their behavior and words in the interests of compassion and tolerance. These people are all Old Testament, I like to say there's no Christ in their Christianity just the bloody crufixion and nothing more.

    by mbair on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:31:23 PM PDT

    •  Occasional troller myself

      The last couple of times that I've browsed through freeperland it seems like they're getting pretty demoralized. I've even seen a few of the freepers accuse Bush of being a liberal.

      On the present trajectory I'm hopeful that we'll see Bush at 25% by Fall. That will probably be the floor of his support. Of course that 25% will be the only people on the face of the planet that support Bush. 10 - 20 million out of 6.5 billion people. That really is quite an accomplishment.

      by mm201 on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 01:26:46 AM PDT

•  are they

  umm   are they racists too ?  Why would that not surprise me at all ?

  by jtomon on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:20:58 PM PDT

•  I heard a piece on NPR

  last week or so. It contained numerous interviews from self-avowed Christians for Bush.

  It was kinda sad, even the people interviewed didn't defend Bush on his policy. They claimed their support derives from the fact that he's a Christian plain and simple. The arguments for Bush espoused in the piece didn't have anything to do with what he's done just the trustiness (opposite side of the coin to truthiness) factor that God informs his decisions in every aspect of the presidency. They have a lot of faith. And it sounded like Bush was testing it, but still coming out ahead.

  So I think the views in the diary are totally valid, but remember he's fooling these people the same as the rest of us. These people the worst because they think he does what he does "prayerfully" and honestly. These people he's taken advantage of more than any other segement of the country.

  by mbair on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:25:46 PM PDT

  •  He's bringing them their Armageddon n/t

    by Jesus was a Liberal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:31:44 PM PDT

    •  The thing about faith

      is that it's supposed to stand rock solid in the face of any facts.  Facts should have nothing to do with faith.

      by peregrina on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:01:27 AM PDT

  •  They are primitive tribalists....

    these Christians. They'll swallow any poison as long as it's in a Jeezus sippy-cup, they'll excuse any atrocity that's wrapped in a Bible banner, they'll never hold a fellow true-believer accountable for anything.  They cannot be reasoned with-- they are the faith-based crowd with no understanding of reason or fact.  

    by KathleenM1 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:32:49 PM PDT

  •  An example

    of how the Right thinks:

    a group of Republican delegates to the 2004 convention was asked if they had seen Michael Moore's documentary, "Fahrenheit 9/11".  Of course they hadn't, but they did remark that they had just heard that Moore was from Michigan, and this surprised them.  They had been convinced that he was from California because that's where all the liberals and America-haters come from.  They completely accepted the "culture war" line that all evil comes from the coasts and must be rejected on that basis alone.  These are GOP  delegates!

    by WaitingForLefty on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:06:28 AM PDT

•  Being a working class Republican

  shares some of the same traits with being a cult member, including:

  1. Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society ("libs are traitors", etc)

  2. Adherents increasingly dependent on the 'movement' (i.e. Rush, FOX, etc) for their view of reality... you can't have discussions about things that can be objectively measured because they don't trust the measurements unless they are the propaganda of FOX, et al.

  3. Leaders claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers (Bush says God told him to bomb Iraq, etc)

  4. Feelings of persecution (Hollywood elite, Liberal media elite, etc, all "out to get us")

  This is why I think Bush's popularity will not sink below a certain floor. Because no matter how awful he gets, there will be a group that has been repeating a mantra for 6 years that he is Jesus' instrument in a divine country with a divine plan and that any interference is obviously traitorous and/or satanic.

  The 35%-ers are starting to have the same grasp on reality that Hitler did in his bunker at the end. They talk about imaginary triumphs and successes and mentally deploy imaginary American power, prestige, and resources to Bush's "war on terra."

  by tiggers thotful spot on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:26:33 PM PDT

  •  they need to be de-programmed

    -- they have been indoctrinated by 'talk radio'.

    And it's right wing 'talk radio' that must be attacked: uncover the hosts for the drug addicts and sex perverts like Limbaugh and O'Reily, and hold them up to ridicule.

    For these lost kool-aid drinking ditto heads, this is not a war of reason - we are wasting our time trying to relate facts and reality to our lonst relatives and friends who believe this crap - it is a war of propoganda.

    They need to be de-programmed.

    Literally.

    by shpilk on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:12:32 PM PDT

    •  deprogramming would be

      time-consuming and expensive.

      I myself would rather utilize their labor on collective farms or in quarries.

      by RabidNation on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:25:29 PM PDT

  •  Excellent points...

    I agree there is a floor on Bush approval, but I think it's about 20%.

    A small percentage of supporters (well intended) don't believe in criticizing a president in wartime. Say about 5%.

    Another 5% only support Bush because it doesn't cost them anything. They support his policies because he's borrowing money to pay for them. Ask Bush supporters if they would actually be willing to rasie taxes to pay for a war, and support would drop like a rock.

    Another 5% are rich people who have only gotten richer in the past 5 years. If the economy gets shaky, they're gone.

    And then there are the Christians. I think they will hang in there.

    by xpress on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:21:00 PM PDT

    •  20% sounds right

      when you consider Nixon had 24% when he left office. And the amazing thing was he lost a lot of Christian and 'silent majority' support not because of his illegal acts but that he cussed constantly like Richard Pryor on his tapes, blowing his image of a straight-laced suit & tie proper type. They couldn't take his cussing! That was what did it.
      And Bush, if it ever comes out to these people that he says or does something to show his Christianity to be a sham, that will devastate his Christian followers. But only that. Otherwise he keeps them. And there are many Christians who don't like Bush, think he behaves un-christianlike. But the fundies will always love him, and that will probably be all that's left at the end along with the stubborn crazies who stay loyal to Fox & righty media. He'll lose, sooner or later the rest of the Republicans.
      A poll publicized on NPR in the past 2 years stated that about 30% think a President should be supported in war no matter what. But I think he'll lose some of those as they realize he's an incompetent general.

      by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:05:59 AM PDT

  •  You just described my stepmom

    and, unfortunately, my father (who used to think for himself but has now been pussy-whipped into blind obedience of stepmom).

    You are exactly right-on-the-money with this description.

    by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:55:43 PM PDT

•  I understand how you feel

  One of my good friends is among the people you describe. He has never been anything but the best kind of friend to me that one could ever want, but when it comes to politics he is almost always totally of a different mind. His big issue is abortion. I don't judge people by how they feel on such matters. He has a daughter after a one night stand with a woman who won't let him see his daughter and he feels that he is lucky that she didn't abort her child and holds hope that she may seek him out in the future.

  So be it.

  It is his choice to have his opinion, IMHO, and although I absolutely disagree with the "pro-life" movement I am not going to shut him out of my life because he feels differently. I do point out my opinion, and that the policies of Bush have increased abortions, plus the failure of abstinance teachings, Plan B, etc.... and I do think I have made inroads on other social/economic polcy matters with him. All you can do is keep on trying. I refuse to give up on someone who feels differently on a few political things than I do. We get along just fine when we are hanging out cooking, watching baseball or playing video games. And we respect each others opinions when we do talk politics. Like I said he is a good friend, not my mortal enemy.

  I think it is a mistake to shut out people that are different than you from your life. If anything, you should seek out people that are radically different than you are. Sorry for the ramble but yes, I AM a bit drunk. Flame on.

  by Blue Southerner on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:28:29 PM PDT

•  Unfathomable, eh?

  Your family sounds like my family. We are six siblings clearly polarized on the political spectrum.  Two of my brothers are part of the Koolaide 30% supporters. I can only attribute the differences to DNA, ie., nature not nuture.

  I'll share my own little anecdote that occurred just this evening.  Eldest brother sent a note about his health care news and ended with one statement that his other trials and tribulations are the Bush brothers.

  Brother #2 responded. His own son just re-enlisted in the Army (more on that) and Brother #2 criticized Brother #1 for making comments that were not supportive of his son in the military. (I know, there's no coorrelation.)

  Here's the irony: The re-enlisted son is decidely anti-Bush and emphatically did not re-enlist for political reasons. He did a tour in Iraq and he tried to tell his parents how screwed up things were in Iraq and they should NOT vote for Bush in 2004.  He said they didn't want to hear anything negative about Bush. They would not listen.

  I can't fathom it.  If I can't fathom my own brother, I have no expectations that the 30% Koolaide gang will ever make any sense to me either.

  I figure every historical era has that crowd who are always hopelessly lost in yesterday. Is it a coincidence that 30% of American colonialists were Loyalists?

  by sawgrass727 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:31:06 PM PDT

•  I find that the vast majority of the people

  that still support Bush are incredibly ignorant of any actual facts.

  The other day, Rumsfeld said that Iran was behind the IEDs that were killing our troops.  The idiot woman I know, staunch Bush supporter, picked up on his comments.  I asked her what proof was there of this.  She didn't know, but if Rumsfeld said it, he must know something we don't.

  I was about to try and make the point that Rumsfeld's comment wasn't even logical since the insurgency was primarily Sunni, and the Iranians are Shiites, thus it didn't make sense that the Iranians would give Sunnis the IEDs. I felt I needed to hold her hand to walk her through this basic logic, so my questioning to her began simply by asking, ok, who's mostly behind the insurgency, Sunnis or Shiites.

  She didn't know.

  I hung my head down and walked away.  Why, WHY, do I ever try to talk to these people.  But whenever I feel completely frustrated by this moron,  I try to remember what she once told me while we were having one of these heated debates:

  "I'll believe what I want to believe"

  'Nuff said.

  by edwardssl on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:32:04 PM PDT

  •  26% of Americans still believed in Nixon

    when he left office - even when everyone knew what he had done. NPR was saying tonight that 50% of Russians TODAY think Stalin was o.k. and might be a better government that what they have now (!). Which seems to go along with that old saw - you can fool some of the people all of the time.

    I think trying to work on independents and levitating the non-voters is more of a possible work through than trying to spoon feed brains into those that have none. Well, it has worked for me on non partisan local stuff like hospitals and schools, helping out with absentee ballots and rides to the polling booths.  

    by sailmaker on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:18:57 PM PDT

  •  Yep, ignorant or head in the sand

    My brother STILL supports bush. But he doesn't read the paper or watch the news. He listens to O'Reilly and Limbaugh.(he once bragged about being a 'ditto head'.)  He thinks bush's approval rating are a conspiracy and hollywood, liberals and the media are behind it. He seems like a nice guy, isn't overtly religous and yet, he has this defect. He's great with circular logic but any other kind not so much. I guess someone has to be bush's 30% but I wish it wasn't my brother!!

    by pacificcoaster on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:53:48 PM PDT

  •  You're not kidding

    It was not reported widely enough, but the recent poll that many pointed out as showing some military troops starting to question the US role in Iraq ALSO showed that 85% of military troops believe the MAIN reason for intervention in Iraq was "retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11", although the well-publicized best-selling 9/11 commission report directly refutes any role there.  It is any wonder that support remains for Bush in these matters when so many are so misinformed?  Perhaps all we need to demonstrate is less rage and, instead: simple, constant recitation of the facts.

    http://www.zogby.com/...

    by WaitingForLefty on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:58:58 PM PDT

•  No, I don't wonder

  Because I know who the 35% are. What I don't know is who the 80% were circa January 2002. Not one day of this presidency have I "approved" of Bush's job performance. Luckily I'm in the majority now.

  by Nathaniel Ament Stone on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:39:19 PM PDT

•  What are you?

  The oddball in the family?  I'm sorry to say this, but these people sound like idiots.  

  Caricatures.  

  Are you pulling our collective leg?

  by Ernest T Bass on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:52:01 PM PDT

  •  Oddball?

    Outcast, pariah, free-thinker

    I considered myself a Republican growing up.
    When I turned 18 and joined the army under Reagan
    I began to see things Thru my own eyes.
    It wasnt regurgitated BS from family members.
    I took an interest in the world beyond and furthered my education of it.
    When I got out of the army I realized my family was not being best served by the party.
    Since that time I have spent the past 21 years trying to get my family to open their minds.
    I have had 1 partial success, an uncle who works for the school system as a janitor.He's the union rep.
    He doesnt watch TV and he doesnt listen to Rush.
    He hasnt left the party completely, but he now splits his vote based on issues that affect him.

    by betterdeadthanred on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:17:51 PM PDT

    •  Do you think people like your family

      are happier believing the lies? How will they react if the truth ever starts seeping through to them? Are you happier with your eyes opened?

      by Alien Abductee on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:29:57 PM PDT

      •  Wouldnt say happier

        Just more comfortable.
        The truth will never seep in.My grandmother's hatred of Clinton and the Democrats went with her to the grave.She would of loved his impeachment in the house.
        As for myself? Happier isnt what I would call it.
        Glad is more like it.Knowing the truth empowers a person to get things done.

        by betterdeadthanred on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:01:12 AM PDT

•  These people

  They are those who only get their news from Fox news, Rush Limbaugh, and their pastor.

  Sadly enough, there are plenty out there.

  by KansasNate on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:56:08 PM PDT

•  As my father has related to me on numerous

  ... occasions, he walks three miles every morning with a group of guys, a number of whom are Republicans, and the Republicans -- big Democrat-haters all -- don't read newspapers or even current event magazines.  They get their information strictly from Limbaugh and Fox News.

  He says they are so ignorant of what is really happening in this country that it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

  He still counts them as friends as they have known each other many years, but their ignorance remains surprising to him.  These are not dumb people.  Just uninformed and unwilling to make themselves informed.

  by Bob Johnson on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:59:00 PM PDT

  •  what's so weird

    about this for me is realizing that the first step to a successful con is to tell the mark what he wants to hear.

    Bushco, and the propaganda forces, do that really well.

    What's so weird to me is the fact that so many of these people still don't know that they've been conned.

    It's like they've been fleeced of all their money, all their clothes, their shoes, everything, and they're standing in the middle of a busy street, buck naked, talking about how great the guy is who took all their stuff.  

    by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:58:04 PM PDT

•  It's the 'press'

  They get all this shit from people like Limbuaugh, that drug-addled gas bag, and Bill O'Reilly, sex-pervert and that screeching hag Coulter.

  Logical argument does not work with people like this; I have a brother who just does not get it, either.

  My answer? Attack the people he listens to; ad hominem attacks are the only thing he understands.

  These kool-aid drinkers are
  hard-core, nothing is going to change their minds, anyway.

  So, might as well have some fun with it. I do.

  by shpilk on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:01:20 PM PDT

•  In fact, one good thing we, as a community

  can do, other than the other political actions we already partake in, is to keep the pressure on idiots like O'Reilly - Franken was saying today one of his insiders at Fox was telling him that O'Falafel Boy is just about ready to go totally off his rocker.

  We have to keep up the pressure on these traitors.
   

  by shpilk on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:06:25 PM PDT

•  Rock of Ages

  Fox News and Rush will prevent any Republican President from falling below 30% approval. Talking to a Bush cultist is similar to speaking to a rock. They are both equally informed.

  by mcartri on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:08:44 PM PDT

  •  I Strenuously Object...

    ...on behalf of rocks, stones, and pebbles everywhere.
    

    by kingubu on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:41:23 AM PDT

•  Here's my take on them

  I just posted a comment in another diary in response to a similar question, which basically asked what's going on with America when we'd impeach a president for sex, but not censure one for lying about a war and spying on us without warrants, etc.

  Actually, I responded to someone who responded to that question with the answer of "greed", to which my response was:

  On the rank and file level, not exactly

  Sure, every Repub, deep down, believes that he or she can, and someday will, become a zillionaire just like all their "picked themselves up from their bootstraps with nothing but hard work and gumption and ingenuity with no help from no stinkin' government handouts" heros (many of whom, of course, got rich by lying and cheating and some form of corporate welfare). But I think it's more complicated that this. Not that I've figured it out for myself, or probably ever will.

  Maybe, during the "good" years following WWII, when everybody seemed to be doing well (or so the common public misperception held), all these people came to believe in a simplistic, optimistic, white bread, 2 cars in the suburban garage kind of vision of what America was all about, and for a while, for them at least, this was a very attainable goal. Back then times really were quite good for lots of hard-working (white) people.

  And then came along those terrible un-American civil rights and anti-war protesters, beatniks, hippies, race riots, bra burners, pro-choicers, etc., to ruin this dream for them (in the sense of its being perfect and not subject to criticism or competition or attack from alternate sociocultural realities).

  At the same time, the economy started to go south, the commies were making inroads all over the world, and crime was on the rise. And so these people sort of shut down psychologically, and dug in ever deeper into this simplistic and monolithic fantasy of what this country was all about, rejecting all contrary views of it, and embracing those who reinforced it.

  Thus Nixon, Reagan, Gingrich and Bush. They were all smart (and cynical) enough to grasp this, and play it for all it was worth. A major segment of the population either wanted, or could be made to want, this sort of fantasy image of what America was and should be about, to be returned to them (even though it never really existed in its idyllic form), and they readily fed them this fantasy in a number of very clever and effective ways.

  Personally, I think the fantasy remains for many of these people, but they no longer believe in the latest purveyers of it--or have started to have very serious doubts about them. That's why I think that the latest incarnation of this Norman Rockwell fantasy of America is falling apart as a viable political tool. But the fantasy remains, and sooner or later, someone else will come along to tap into and exploit it.

  The political tide is finally turning away from these people, but only for now, and it's just a matter of time before someone else comes along to galvanize their racist, bigoted, homophobic, white bread vision of America, and use it to do great harm to the rest of us (and, of course, to them as well, as if they'd even know it).

  Be grateful that Bush and his cronies are self-destructing and that the pendulum seems to be swinging back towards us. But always be vigilant, because that pendulum will eventually swing right back to them, and when it does, I sincerely hope we won't be caught asleep at the wheel like we were this time.

  by kovie on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:51:37 PM PDT

•  i don't wonder cuz i don't care

  they hate me for my freedoms and i hate them for their stupidity.  so why waste time thinking about them?  I worry about how to round them all up and inter them on a ranch in Crawford, Texas, kinda like the way Malkinbitch said it was ok to inter peaceful noncombatants.  What could protect our country more?

  by Bill O Rights on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:10:01 PM PDT

•  Its hard to admit that you were wrong

   I know quite a few like your family. They repeat the talking points they hear from Rush or Ted Baxter or somehow try to bring up something with the word Clinton in it. The real reason is some people (apparently 35%)would rather plagues of locusts, frogs or lightning bolts than admit they were wrong or vote for a Democrat.

  by tworivers on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:22:11 PM PDT

  •  they don't know they've been conned

    yet.

    And most of them probably will never figure it out.

    by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:58:55 PM PDT

  •  The Bush supporters I know

    Are simply too stubborn to admit he's incompetent after me telling them so for four years. So, it's hard for them (all men) to admit their wrong. Big surprise there. I also think it's the conservative ideology of following the leader (political or religious) without question or doubt. It's why cons are so good politically. They don't question or doubt, they just show up and vote. Either that, or people are simply too busy or uninterested to care.

    by master94 on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:02:43 AM PDT

•  Hey look...

  We all know people that are just so dumb...

  you shudder.

  Jerry Springer.

  That's America, people.

  Are we forgetting? We all know these people.

  by theletterzee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:32:21 AM PDT

•  Yeah, that's what so scary

  is that if Bush were competent, he'd have the support of half the country and be dictator. After this goes up all in flames, the democracy-hating Neocons & Christianfakey Righties will look for a competent strongman. Scary. I hope the Republicans who are starting to talk about a so-called 'centrist' 3d party do it, so that it replaces the old respectable Republican conservatives, and the Neocons & Christofakeyfascists are re-marginalized. Otherwise, we're in bigger trouble, and we're in big enough trouble now.

  by doinaheckuvanutjob on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:34:23 AM PDT

•  A lot of misguided ideas here.

  Do not be too hard on that 33%. In the end it will drop no further than 25%.

  These people are not stupid. They are not delusional. They do not believe they will become millionaires. They do not hate brown people. Quite simply they are followers.

  Anyone with any experience with social interactions knows that people land all along the leadership spectrum. Kids learn this by 2nd grade. They learn that some people are natural leaders and some are natural followers and most are somewhere in between.

  Leaders have the ability to look at where the crowd is going and the be the first one to say 'No! That's the wrong way!'. Followers simply cannot do that. Some followers have such a desperate need to be led that they'll go to Jonestown, they'll join up with a David Koresh or a Charles Manson. For some it's localized to a need to be part of a larger purpose and these people are more likely to turn to religion - normal, typical religion - others to fundamentalism. Some will turn to the military or other highly structured environment. Others need to be part of a relationship and they'll stay with an abusive person or someone who cheats on them, etc. And it's sometimes a short-term thing - like hostages that refuse to escape from their captors, or citizens that side with terrorists.

  These people that need to be led, to feel as though they have a President looking out for their interests, a government that will be there for them, have such a deep need to have that leader that they are willing to excuse these faults, to redefine their interests to be the interests of that party or that person. They'll hide from information that disrupts that need for leadership. They aren't stupid, they simply cannot bear to lose their faith in their leaders. These people are just wired a bit more in that direction than the other 67% and/or they are experiencing circumstances that makes them more in need of that security - which is part of the military support.

  So, why are these people clinging so desperately to Bush and the GOP instead of jumping to the Dems? Well, for one the Dems don't have the power to deliver what these people need - they're the minority party. For two, they aren't exactly showing blazing leadership themselves, but slowly they are winning over the middle. But in the end there will be some who cling with every last breath to who they perceive to be their leader, so that 25% will never go away.

  But take it easy on them - it's not something that can easily remedy as it's part of their personality and circumstance.

  by johnsonwax on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:56:18 AM PDT

  •  Go straight to the head of the class

    Yours is the most succinct and on-point explanations of the "W" hero-worship phenomenon (quite a phenomenon considering how clay-footed the man is) I've seen.

    Having said that, it's too bad that the diarist can't go into the free-agent market and find better relatives than the ones he's been issued.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 03:54:10 AM PDT

    •  We all have the free market option

      It's society that holds us back. Your family is who you make it be. There are plenty of cultures that define the family as those people that care for each other. My neighbors are Filipino - they and all of the other Filipino families in our neighborhood (3-4 or so) consider themselves to be one extended family. They pull together as well as any nuclear family. It's a wonderful thing to see and having so many participants makes many things much easier.

      Part of why so many Americans have struggled since WWII isn't the erosion of the nuclear family as the right would have you believe, but the erosion of the extended non-genetic family. My dad (born just after WWII) and his 4 siblings were half raised by the family across the street as my grandfather was institutionalized from PTSD and my grandmother worked as a nurse to support the family. My dad is approaching 60 and still continues to visit that family regularly - even as he and they have moved around the country. They cared for him when he was young and he will care for them now that they're old. Our society wouldn't not consider them as part of my family, but we do.

      My uncle is an asshole. His wife is no better. I have no guilt about never going to visit them and never inviting them to get to know my kids (they happen to be our closest living relatives, to boot). They are not part of my family. I may share some more DNA with them than I do with my neighbors, but I guarantee that my neighbors will come up on the next of kin list a hell of lot faster than my uncle will.

      If we as a society could get over this whole genetic nuclear family hangup, life for a great many people would improve signficantly. Kids in need of parents would find them faster and be less stigmatized if they looked different. Dysfunctional families could break out of their dysfunction and reform and move ahead.

      So, to the diarist I would say that if your relatives aren't working out for you there's nothing stopping you from finding new ones. I have never found a shortage of caring people that were willing to participate in my life but I find a real shortage of people willing to invite them in. My kids have been adopted by their crossing guard who lost her son in Vietnam and missed out on grandkids. She is a wonderful person. Why would I deprive my kids of a grandmotherly figure or her of kids that she can be grandmotherly to?

      And just because there are familiy disagreements doesn't mean you need to go free agent (I know you aren't suggesting that). My mom was a GOP delegate. She's still a Republican, though not a 35%er any more. We have viscious disagreements over the direction of this country, but we can just as quickly turn to other subjects - it's not a wedge, just a difference of opinion. I don't think any less of her for her viewpoint and she doesn't think any less of me for mine. Well, except that I'm right and she's wrong. :)

      by johnsonwax on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 10:37:23 AM PDT

•  the bush supporters live in a cocoon similar to w

  they watch faux and run around with other cocoon disabled people. on sunday they go to cocoon church and are told they are right and the rest of us are going to hell. there you have it!

  by stodghie on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 07:36:00 AM PDT