Daily Kos

Getting It Straight with the Wrong-Headed Right

Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:43:15 PM PDT

What I need from the conservatives who were wrong is this:

A statement, a simple statement, that they were wrong and we were right. Period. Not that Bush incompetently executed a terrific idea, but that the idea itself was wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. As wrong as you can get. You simply cannot force democracy on another nation at gunpoint. Period.

It doesn't matter that you don't like the messenger, that you wish he or she were less shrill or not fat or not given to making documentaries or standing in ditches or previously criticizing Bush on other issues from the pages of the New York Times. None of that matters. Those messengers were right. You were wrong. Period. Have the decency to say it, once and for all, and we can move on.

It's not groveling that we critics want; we don't want conservatives to face years and years of personal humiliation over this. The admitted emotional satisfaction we can get from that is minor, more appropriate for the schoolyard than the national political stage.

What the right doesn't understand - and why they're screaming that we're meanies over this insistence on an unconditional mea culpa - is that we anticipate a repeat, with a more competent executive in charge, of a scenario that most people with a grounding in Middle Eastern history knew had no chance of success from the get-go. You could put the most efficient, brilliant leader in charge, but if the idea is simply bone-headed and undoable, all you've got is a longer time period before the unraveling becomes apparent, which in some ways presents a bigger danger. A competent executive that marshals a bad idea through its initial stages has a greater ability to hide the signs of an impending disaster. Just ask Enron employees who had their life savings tied up in company pension plans.

I also find it disingenuous that the right claims sole ownership of the "Saddam is a bad, bad man" banner. Please. Compared to the liberal left, they are decades late to that particular party. Progressives were screaming into the void about Hussein's human rights violations, his gassing of the Kurds, his terrorizing of political opponents long, long, long before it conveniently bubbled up into the consciousness of the neocon right. While Donald Rumsfeld was famously shaking hands with and arming Hussein, we were saying: Bad idea. Bad man. This is gonna come back and bite us in the ass.

For this, we were labeled too "sensitive," not reality-based enough to operate in the real world, where sometimes you have to arm a strongman to keep a worse scenario at bay.

Well, shove it. We were right. You were wrong. Period.

And you were wrong because - it pains me to say this - you lost your minds in the aftermath of 9/11.

War critics who did not, in fact, shut off their higher cortex and retreat to the reptilian brain during this period can make it easier for conservatives to admit they wrong - and we need to do this to move this country forward, like it or not - by quit rubbing their faces in it. A horrible thing happened on 9/11. We were shocked as a nation, horrified, terrified, wounded and grieving. It is understandable - completely understandable - that a large portion of this country suddenly was willing to kill people - any people - for any trumped-up reason whatsoever to assuage the bleeding of this national wound. But ... being understandable doesn't make it right. I can understand how a parent reaches a point of slapping a child out of frustration for asking one too many times for a Mr. Goodbar in the check-out line; that doesn't mean I approve the action or want to see it repeated in the future.

But it was then - right then in the fresh, raw, losing-our-minds stage after 9/11 - that the few outspoken critics should have been most honored, that critical speech should have been most strenuously preserved: saying whoa whoa whoa whoa now here, let's slow down. Let's look at the facts. Let's see if a military solution is going to prevent this kind of thing again - or whether it's going to further enrage an already clearly enraged group. That was when it was most vital to hear "slow down the juggernaut and let's examine our options" counsel.

And that's when we were labeled traitors. Fifth columnists. America haters.

We loved our country enough to dig deep down into our courage and speak up in the face of an overwhelming majority that had - to put it bluntly - temporarily gone insane. We loved our country - and its freedoms - enough to bear years and years of being called its enemy, and still continued to speak out.

We believed our gargantuan defense budget should - at the very least - buy us time to simmer down, regain our senses, make decisions from a strategic and rational mindset and not one out of instinctive revenge and over-emotionalism. The fact is, if the defense budget can't serve that purpose, then we've been seriously overfunding it for years.

It's hard to say these simple words, without qualification: You were right. I was wrong. Ask anyone who's been in a relationship. Hell, ask anyone who's been a parent or child or a sibling or a friend. It's one of the most difficult concessions to ever make, admitting complete wrongheadedness, but it's also a sign of maturity and a willingness to move out of the realm of accusations and into the realm of finding workable solutions. It's also the only way one party can be assured that more caution and more willingness to brainstorm is assured in any future horrifying situation.

Few on the left are total pacifists, unwilling to sanction use of the military under any circumstances. Many supported the invasion in Afghanistan. We are realists, and we understand that there are times and situations in which use of military force - or the threat to use it - is necessary for the defense of our country. But it is regrettable, we believe, when it comes to that. It speaks to a failure of imagination on either our part or the part of our adversary, a failure of diplomacy, sanctions, sophisticated intelligent gathering and healthy defense maneuvers.

So here's my final gripe with the once-raving right: When military force is inevitable, it is not an occasion to be celebrated with sleekly packaged shock and awe campaigns, the popping of Pabst Blue Ribbon, fervent flag-waving and a back-slapping binge of red, white and blue macho man international posturing. It is a serious and sorrowful matter, these decisions that kill people, guilty and innocent alike. Gravity and decorum are called for. Somber, grown-up behavior is requested. Flight suit photo ops, raucous bullying cries of "Bring it on!," uber-patriot displays on steroids are unseemly ... and more appropriate for liquored-up frat party rivalries than undertaking the most consequential decision a country can make: who will live and who will die. Vulgarity cheapens even the noblest cause, and once the PR was peeled back on this one - Iraq having no connection with the WTC catastrophe - there was precious little nobility to spare..

In other words, show some class, for crying out loud. It's the least the world deserves from this country.

And what we who criticized the Iraqi invasion deserve is an unqualified apology. We're all ears.

  • ::

Tags: conservatives, Republican Party, apologists (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 250 comments

  •  Brava (15+ / 0-)

    wow, you expressed my thoughts almost perfectly.

    Thank you for sayign this.

    The world will end not with a bang, but with a "Do'oh!"
    "America is a free speech zone."

    by Love and Death on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:42:46 PM PDT

  •  Great post! (4+ / 0-)

    Has to be said.

    Drug wars are stupid

    by Danny Boy on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:43:24 PM PDT

  •  Amen, Amen and AMEN!!! (8+ / 0-)

    I'd like my apology to be followed with a complete pull out of US troops from Iraq, please.  And then a complete focus of education and healthcare in this country.

    Thank you in advance.

    O 4 O: Oregon for Obama!

    by smugbug on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:43:26 PM PDT

  •  ain't you heard yet ? (5+ / 0-)

    It ain't their fault, It's all the Presses fault why would they take the blame when they can say the press Cheney'd it up.

    -8.63 -7.28 We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.~Martin Luther King III

    by OneCrankyDom on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:44:02 PM PDT

  •  An excellent diary... (0+ / 0-)

    We've had it right since Vietnam. No matter how much they scream it will never change the truth. It is with our truth that we will restore the blessings of Liberty.

    Goper's Lament (Hard To Be A Republican)

    Love Songs From Ground Zero

    by Subway Serenade on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:45:02 PM PDT

    •  Susan G. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bablhous, jfadden

      This is just about the best diary (FP or otherwise) that I've read here in a long time.  Just fabulous.  I want this published on the op-ed pages of every newspaper, and posted on the walls of subway stations...  Thanks!

      Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

      by dnta on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:35:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  since Viet Nam (0+ / 0-)

      war is so 20th century.  The Bozos of the Bush administration are veritable dinosaurs. They haven't figured out that war as they conceive it....armies lined up in grey and blue coats firing at each other is more than passe.  Given their concept no wonder they claim Iraq is not in a civil war...they are expecting Gettysburg yet.  Our country is paying a terrible price for this antiquated mind set.  Don't hold your breath for an apology.  These guys believe in their own fantasy.  I'm waiting for their "game-boy" to run out of batteries.  I think we're close!

  •  Need a truth and reconciliation commission (5+ / 0-)

    Because, let's not forget, for many of them, their support amounts to a war crime, and prosecuting hundreds, from Wolfowitz on down will be difficult...so a South-African style "confess your sins" to the nation is one way we can deal with it.

    For those at the highest levels, unfortunately, only the Hague will do.

  •  Best. Diary. Ever. (18+ / 0-)

    and I'm only half-way through it!

    Kudos.  Especially for these two sentences:

    You simply cannot force democracy on another nation at gunpoint. Period.

    And you were wrong because - it pains me to say this - you lost your minds in the aftermath of 9/11.

    Two things avoided by each and every pundit that I've seen.  Two things that not even the bright people will discuss.  I brought up thse things AMONGST FRIENDS, and they all looked at me like I was from Mars.


    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:46:10 PM PDT

    •  I must take exception. (7+ / 0-)

      Overall it is a very good diary, BUT....

      once again Iraq is being justified by 911. It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 911, and SusanG is being far too generous in her "understanding" of support for the war because of some collective insanity caused by 911. I'm not buying it. A lot of regular folks understandably fell for the Bush administration deceptions connecting Saddam with 911, but anyone who is paid to seriously think about these issues, from politicians to pundits, deserves no pass for falling for such blatant bullshit.

      911 is no excuse for support of this war because it had nothing to do with it. It is frustrating to see SusanG lending legitimacy to this absolutely insane conventional wisdom that refuses to die.

      •  Y'see (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Kestrel, lgmcp

        This is where the word insane comes into effect.
        And there were a lot of people who lost it on 9-11.
        Sorry. But I agree with the statement.

        The surge worked huh? Really? Are the American soldiers out of Iraq? Then the surge FAILED!

        by RElland on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:11:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think you missed her point (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Kestrel, slouise217, jfadden, lgmcp

        The point was that a lot of Americans were really hut and traumatized by 911, and wanted to strike out against anybody.  I know that was the case with my conservative Dem colleague.  It was a simple as that.  Facts had nothing to do with it.  It was all emotional, and the Bush administration exploited that emotion to conduct a war that they would not otherwise have been able to muster.  It has nothing at all to do with whether Saddam was involved in 911.  The idea was that he's a bad guy in the general area, so let's get a bad guy.  It will make us feel better.  This is all 'feel-good' politics.

        •  How much blood is required? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Little Red Hen

          Was our invasion of Afghanistan not enough? How did it make us feel better about 911 to pull troops out of Afghanistan for Iraq and let Bin Laden escape? I'm not buying it. People who should know better (journalists, bloggers, pundits, politicians) supported an illegal, immoral, unprovoked, and unjustified war because they're quasi-fascist dickheads. Now they're just bummed out because of the results. They're still dicks and that's why they will never apologize. I'm not buying the temporary insanity defense. I was extremely bummed out after 911, but it didn't turn me into an irrational imperialist asshole.

          And let's face it - a lot of elites jumped on the Iraq bandwagon because they're whores.

          •  Yeah, but... (0+ / 0-)

            ...you're not paid to be an "irrational imperialist asshole." Some obviously are, but I don't necessarily think they were the intended audience.

            And, it is pretty apparent that Afghanistan was just a detour on the road to the "crazies" real destination.

          •  Dickheads? (0+ / 0-)

            This circle jerk of "We were right, totally and unequivocally right, and anyone who disagreed with any part of our stand was wrong" is a real waste of bandwidth. By going after Saddam Bush (1) Got rid of Saddam and (2) will have ended up totally delegitimizing large parts of the Republican ideology. It corresponds to the implosion Johnson led the Democrats through with Viet Nam. Except that Uncle Ho was something of a good guy, as totalitarian leaders go, while Saddam was really worth getting rid of.

            Look, there was no way Iraq wasn't going to get worse — far worse than it has under Bush's bungled occupation. The sanctions weren't going to hold much longer, which would have led to WMDs, which would have been used just as Saddam had used WMDs before. If Saddam had died, his sons would have taken over — worse than him. If Saddam's family had been overthrown, it would have gone straight into civil war — a war we would have had to intervene in anyway.

            The fuckup is that the occupation hasn't been run better. It could have been. To argue otherwise is to say, "Competence just doesn't matter." If you believe that, please vote Democratic, but don't even think about running for elective office. We don't need the simple-minded there.

            •  'simple-minded' (0+ / 0-)

              What is "simple-minded" is not to be able to wrap your brain around the concept that something can be both poorly executed and bad policy.

              "Look, there was no way Iraq wasn't going to get worse — far worse than it has under Bush's bungled occupation."

              I guess you must have some kind of a crystal ball to know this.

              "The sanctions weren't going to hold much longer, which would have led to WMDs, which would have been used just as Saddam had used WMDs before."

              The sanctions (which were killing millions of Iraqi civilians, mostly children) wouldn't continue to hold if the international community chose to end them. I guess you think it's legitimate for the U.S. to simply unilaterally preemt the will of the rest of the world by invading a country that had not attacked us, earning worldwide fear and hatred and giving the terrorists a recruiting bonanza beyond their wildest dreams.

              "If Saddam had died, his sons would have taken over — worse than him. If Saddam's family had been overthrown, it would have gone straight into civil war — a war we would have had to intervene in anyway."

              Why would we have to intervene? Even if you are right in your unsupported speculation that the situation would have gotten worse on it's own, it would have gotten worse without the loss of thousands of American lives and without the one to two trillion dollar estimated long term cost to our treasury and without alienating our allies and without turning us into the most feared and hated nation in the world and without the Al Queda recruitment bonanza our invasion and occupation have caused.

              The bottom line is that the invasion and occupation are bad policy because they were perpetrated for a motive - to control Iraq's resources by military force - that is both evil and transparent to the rest of the world. The incompetent execution is merely putrid icing on a foul and evil cake.

        •  BushCo manipulated this reaction (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Little Red Hen

          I think you are correct in so far as you describe the feelings of many Americans.  But The Regime took this reaction and capitalized on it to create a war that had no actual justification.  

          I guess it depends a bit upon whom you are looking at.  The Regime created the link between 9/11 and Iraq.  Many people bought it (and others were rendered a bit less certain) only in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

      •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

        I must have missed the part where she said Iraq was "justified" by 9/11, or that it had "anything to do with" 9/11.

        She didn't. She pointed out that a lot if rightwingers, whether they were being serious or just opportunistic, DID. Not the same thing. That's like saying that an oncologist who diagnoses someone's cancer is saying the cancer is "justified."

        You're not only criticizing the messenger, you're misunderstanding her.

        -8.25, -6.26 "I'm not superstitious. But, I AM a little stitious." - Michael Scott

        by snookybeh on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:44:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Umm... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Little Red Hen

          It is understandable - completely understandable - that a large portion of this country suddenly was willing to kill people - any people - for any trumped-up reason whatsoever to assuage the bleeding of this national wound.

          No, it is not understandable. People rallied around a president in a time of crisis and believed him when he lied to them. People supported the war because they were told that Saddam had something to do with 911 and the media never bothered to correct the misperception. It is not understandable to want to slaughter thousands of people that had absolutely nothing to do with 911 because of 911. What is understandable is that millions of Americans struggling to survive and spend their precious leisure moments numbing their stressed out brains in front of a television set were easily manipulated by an administration and an enabling corporate media both of whom have their own agendas that don't have jack shit to do with 911.

          •  What's understandable and what's unforgivable (0+ / 0-)

            You've won me over with your sharply worded responses to SusanG.  This one's a little confusing, though.  I think you mean that it's understandable that people wanted to get behind the President and take action but not that they wanted to slaughter "any people", as Susan G put it, and I agree.  Saying that it's understandable that people can act stupidly and cruelly is not saying much.  Your point is that irrational behavior is not understandable (rational).  

            Susan's post is excellent, but she does seem to give cover to people who did not want to deliberate about the issue at all but just wanted to act out their dormant vengefulness toward the world in general.  Even if you believed that Iraq was involved in the attacks, you were bound to wait for evidence before supporting an invasion of that country, and there wasn't any.

            Take back your country.

            by Mass Man on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 08:35:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  'Did you go crazy ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... or did you report, on that day they wounded New York?"

        - Leonard Cohen

    •  strange (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      miasmo

      these are the two (2) points I disagreed with.

      1. You simply cannot shouldn't force democracy on another nation at gunpoint. Period.

      I know, it's just one word but I think mine gives the statement another dimension.

      1. And you were wrong because - it pains me to say this - you lost your minds in the aftermath of 9/11.

      I feel that this is not accurate. They lost their minds long before 9/11.

      "It takes two to lie. One to lie, one to hear it." Homer Simpson

      by Euroliberal on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:37:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jfadden

        some people really did lose their minds on 9/11.

        I have a (former) good friend who, prior to 9/11, was, at most, apolitical. Maybe leaning toward conservative, no fan of Bill Clinton, but basically apolitical.

        After 9/11, he became TERRIFIED of terrorist attacks. And he fell into the sweet embrace of the freeper wingnuts.

        Was his insanity always there, just waiting to come out? maybe, but the fact remains that 9/11 triggered it for him. Had it never happened, we would still be friends. But, unfortunately, he has said and done things regarding my "hatred of America" that make that impossible now.

        -8.25, -6.26 "I'm not superstitious. But, I AM a little stitious." - Michael Scott

        by snookybeh on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:50:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  For some, (0+ / 0-)

        the insanity wasn't "temporary" at all.  Their derangements are long-standing.

      •  'Cannot' is the right word (0+ / 0-)

        You cannot force democracy on a nation at gunpoint.  If it's forced on you, it's not democracy.

        Take back your country.

        by Mass Man on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 08:24:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Susan G (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    maryb2004

    Like your posts, but they are way too long.  I would suggest breaking it up.  

  •  Perfect! (9+ / 0-)

    This should be on the oped page of NYT or some other major paper.  

    The general tone of the article captures my feelings exactly.  Moreover, every time the Republicans say that others dont have a plan (whether or not that is true), I want to say "I know your plan was wrong every single time in the last 15 years, so I know your plan only sinks us into a quagmire from which we need more plans to extricate ourselves from".

    •  I have to agree ... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Kestrel, Subway Serenade, jfadden

      While Daily Kos items can reach many -- such as through Kossacks like me forwarding this to 50 people -- the "MSM" still has serious reach and 'credibility'.  

      This is a tremendous diary that is reflective of so much ...

      I was pulled into some pre-war activity ... and had everything that I was suggesting rejected.  I worked to raise issues about whether this was a sensible path to take the nation.  I have yet to have a single person who pushed this lunacy and who was pounding the drums for war do any form of mea culpa ... so far, I've been satisfied by ever growing silence by these drum beaters.  But, I really am tempted to go back over e-mail trails and feed back their 2002/2003 lunacies and how they reacted to even the most mild questioning.  I want to tell them "I/we told you so!" and have them respond "you were right."  ...

    •  I agree . . . (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Subway Serenade

      Susan G's essay is perfect in telling what needs to occur for this country to move on. Not too long either.

  •  FEMA vs Charitable Organizations in Gulf Region (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Subway Serenade

    Sorry this is a different subject but:

    Have you heard about FEMA working to make charitable organizations life more difficult? The ones helping New Orleans residents?
    FEMA is practically attempting to shut down the efforts of private citizen sponsored organizations and ministries down there Helping People!
    (what FEMA refuses to do)
    Unbelievable!!

  •  I Want Humiliation (6+ / 0-)

    I want change in their philosophies and characters consistent with what happened when the Guilded Age led to the Depression and it became impossible for politicians not to embrace the New Deal.

    That's the only deal I'm offering.

    •  Go back and learn how these guys' (6+ / 0-)

      political forefathers fought the New Deal. Tooth and fucking nail they fought.

      I'm not holding my breath expecting any sign of remorse from these bastards. The truth isn't in 'em.

      9/11 changed everything. And we're gonna change it back.

      by perro amarillo on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:51:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd love it too, but... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Kestrel

      yeah, if there were any cosmic justice, these fascist bastards would have to go on TV (because, like Randi Rhodes says, unless it happens on "the teevee" it doesn't really happen), confess their sins, and face the verbal abuse of an angry populace. Which would then be followed by time in a "reeducation center."

      But... ain't gonna happen, and I'd settle for apologies and admissions that they were wrong.

      Besides, beasts fight back after humiliation. The humiliation of Germany after WWI led to the rise of the Nazis.

      -8.25, -6.26 "I'm not superstitious. But, I AM a little stitious." - Michael Scott

      by snookybeh on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:57:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Germany In World War One (0+ / 0-)

        Was not invaded to speak of.
        Haven't heard much like that out of them lately, have you?

        France got the worst of it in WWI. They were not game for WWII.

        •  Germans felt humiliated after WWI (0+ / 0-)

          Hitler fed off that.

          France built the Maginot line--which was probably the biggest boondoggle* ever!

          *Please note that "biggest boondoggle" is hyperbole and not an invitation to supply some of the many other contendors for the title.

          John McCain--not so much old as obsolete.

          by ohiolibrarian on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:16:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes... (0+ / 0-)

            ...They felt humiliated because they still felt like the same old Germans, and those same old Germans felt defeated. But weren't.

            What you need to do if you really want to conquer is transform people through real defeat into new people in their own minds; new people that were therefore never defeated.

            And it should go without saying, I hope, that I don't counsel that undertaking in Iraq!

            •  no... (0+ / 0-)

              Whether or not Germany was "invaded" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

              After the armistice that ended the fighting of WWI, the Treaty of Versailles was the official peace treaty that formally ended the war:

              Terms imposed by the Treaty included Germany losing a certain amount of its own territory to a number of surrounding countries, being stripped of all its overseas and African colonies, and its ability to make war again was limited by restrictions on the size of its military. Germany also acknowledged and agreed to respect the independence of Austria. Germany's foreign minister, Hermann Müller, undersigned it on June 28, 1919. The treaty was ratified by the League of Nations on January 10, 1920. In Germany, the treaty caused shock and humiliation that contributed to the collapse of the Weimar Republic in 1933 and arguably, Adolf Hitler's rise to power.

              This is what I'm talking about. In addition to what is cited above, the terms of the treaty also probably caused more economic disaster in Germany than what would have probably happened. The terms of the treaty and reperations demanded upon Germany have been criticized often in the years since, and many have speculated that, had they been more reasonable, The Nazis may not have swept into power, and WWII may well have not happened. There's no way to know of course, and Fascism may have still sprung up anyway. But who knows?

              Think of our own Civil War. Once the South surrendered, there was a loud, vocal faction in the North that wanted Lincoln to harshly punish the South. He did not. He knew that the war had severely damaged the South, that rebuilding would be necessary, and that the South had already been humiliated enough in defeat.

              I shudder to think what could have happened to this country had there been massive, severe punishment.

              -8.25, -6.26 "I'm not superstitious. But, I AM a little stitious." - Michael Scott

              by snookybeh on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 02:06:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                The lesson being, do nothing by halves. Moderation is good for oneself but not a good way to deal with others.

                I think you can win a war by treating the other side as an equal and politely working out terms. In fact in some cases you can even win a war you lost that way, as with the Russo-Japanese War, although that like Versailles led to WWII.... The middle path leads to enmity and the communal ability to seek revenge.

              •  Also, Germany was treated unfairly in 1916 (0+ / 0-)

                The British used a blockade to starve the German population and the U.S. supported it, then turned around and accused the Germans of breaking international law when they deployed submarines to combat the blockade.  The British were violating international law in the first place, but Wilson just wanted a war and fixed the facts around the (his) policy.

                Sound familiar?

                Take back your country.

                by Mass Man on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 09:28:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Yes... (0+ / 0-)

            ...They felt humiliated because they still felt like the same old Germans, and those same old Germans felt defeated. But weren't.

            What you need to do if you really want to conquer is transform people through real defeat into new people in their own minds; new people that were therefore never defeated.

            And it should go without saying, I hope, that I don't counsel that undertaking in Iraq!

          •  And conservative liberals encouraged the Right (0+ / 0-)

            A big event in WW1 Germany was the presumably "liberal" government of Social Democrats giving in to the loony right.

            Some sailors began a revolt when their naval officers began launching an assault not approved by the government.

            Let me repeat that:  these military men patriotically refused to carry out illegal military orders.

            Their revolt spread to several cities where patriotic and humanist socialists established revolutionary governments.

            What did their Social Democrat (i.e., liberal) government do?

            The Prime Minister called out the right wing paramilitaries (often called the Freikorps, think Montana Militia) to crush, beat, and kill those revolting.

            I guess it sounds nice to crush lawbreakers.

            But it gave a vast promotion to the unlawful murderers who would form the basis of a violent fascist movement in Germany.  Where do you think Hitler's brownshirts came from?  Where do you think the German people got the idea that armed right wing enforcers were legitimate?

            It was this act -- this cowardly collaboration of the 'moderate' liberals with the loony right.  That's what helped usher in fascism.

            Who will we be now?

            Will we be among those who agree to go along with the right to crush dissenters?

            Or will we be among those who risk everything to halt their nation's slide into criminality?

  •  Applause !!! (0+ / 0-)

    Brilliantly written. Really, really well said.

  •  Hey! Leave PBR out of this! =) (4+ / 0-)

    Great rant SusanG.

    You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

    by peeder on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:48:59 PM PDT

  •  The 'L' Word (7+ / 0-)

    My wish is that the talking heads and people like Matthews and Olbermann would use the 'L' word.

    We all know it.

    While Perlman and Wolfowitz were disolustioned; Bush and especially Rumsfeld, Cheney and Rice LIED to us.

    Not only did they lie, they new they were doing it.

    With the video archive at they're finger tips it would be so easy for Matthews to look at Cheney and say "Excuse me Mr. Vice President but you are a liar" and then roll the tape.

    (-9.00, -8.92) Those Who Hear Not the Music, Think the Dancers Mad

    by craigb on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:49:26 PM PDT

  •  don't hold your breath... (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kestrel, Carnacki, bablhous, jfadden, lgmcp
    superlative post!

    alas, there's no hard-wired capacity for self-relexion, empathy, or compassion in the reptilian brain.  these miscreants would sooner crash and burn--taking us all along for the ride--before revealing the required measure of humanity intrinsic to the acts of apology or admission of fault.

    >> We're all ears.

    but sadly, they're all ass (makes for a very unsettling uni-directional line of communication).

    Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. -Mark Twain

    by homo neurotic on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:49:30 PM PDT

  •  Brilliant! (6+ / 0-)

    Operation Iraqi Fuq'P never had a chance.  Those of us who knew this have been demonized by idiots.

    Thanks for saying it all so eloquently, SusanG!

    •  Occupations (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lisa, Kestrel, bablhous

      Yes, even the low motives we attributed to them, as in '"Operation Iraqi Liberation" = O.I.L.' (Download this and other great songs by Dave Rovics) were delusional in and of of themselves.  

      It's actually pretty impossible to permanently steal other people's land and resources with any effectiveness UNLESS you are willing to follow uber-traditional conquest procedures: slaughter every man and boy, rape the women, burn the towns, and salt the fields.  

      Otherwise you get a whole lot of freedom fighters, oh, excuse me, insurgents.  

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:22:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now we know (0+ / 0-)

    2 wrongs CAN make a Right!

    (sorry, I couldn't resist)

    "I must admit that I don't see a bright tomorrow; still, I must also confess that my hopes are fairly high"--Ass Ponys, "Fighter Pilot"

    by oxymoron on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:50:48 PM PDT

  •  As long as the war's supporters (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Orj ozeppi, rockhound

    are divorced from reality, there's not a lot to talk about.  

    Until the conservatives come clean, words mean nothing.  
    .

    Will "gooks" vote for John McCain? Will "c-nts" vote for John McCain?

    by Grand Moff Texan on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:50:50 PM PDT

  •  My thoughts (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    guyute16

    "we don't want conservatives to face years and years of personal humiliation over this"

    Although if they did, it might prove the law of karma.

    The only place where Republicans are anywhere close to responsible is in the dictionary.

    by DemDachshund on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:51:15 PM PDT

  •  I disagree, I want groveling, the bastards! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jfadden

    We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

    by hcc in VA on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:51:43 PM PDT

    •  Yea! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jfadden

      I love the post, but with respect to this comment:
      "It's not groveling that we critics want; we don't want conservatives to face years and years of personal humiliation over this"---speak for yourself.  Years and years of personal humiliation is the least that they deserve.

      Most everything means nothing--except some things that mean everything. Patty Griffin

      by Cracker on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:12:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely, and let's not forget that hanging is (0+ / 0-)

        prescribed for traitors in time of war...you know, like traitors who knowingly lie to get us into one?  OK, maybe not hanging, but a few hours in the stockades for some pummeling might be appropriate.

        We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

        by hcc in VA on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 06:57:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  BTW (0+ / 0-)

    this seems to be today's theme.
    .

    Will "gooks" vote for John McCain? Will "c-nts" vote for John McCain?

    by Grand Moff Texan on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:51:54 PM PDT

  •  SusanG (6+ / 0-)

    I tried to enlist after Sept. 11th (was too old). Jonah Goldberg did not. I protested the Iraq war. Jonah Goldberg cheered for it and still did not try to enlist.

    Thrice is he armed who hath his quarrel just. Sherlock Holmes.

    by Carnacki on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:52:07 PM PDT

  •  PBR! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    peeder, kazztawdal

    Bravo.

    FWIW: I popped several Pabsts in opposition to this whole mess. Don't blame the blue ribbon. ;)

  •  perfect. (0+ / 0-)

    and I promise not to say "I told you so" again.

    At least not more than a couple of times.....

  •  They need to be shunned (4+ / 0-)

    You don't go far enough. Their incredibly bad judgment has led to one of the worst strategic blunders and humanitarian disasters in our history.

    The reason they need to admit they were wrong is not so "we can move on". It's so the rest of us, whose judgments were correct, do not have to hear the likes of George Will, Tom Friedman, Paul Wolfowitz, Daniel Perle, et al tell us what we must do next.

    They need to be exposed.
    Then they need to be shunned.
    Before they can do more harm.

    •  To be fair... (0+ / 0-)

      Tom Friedman in his typical semi-intelligent more-neoliberal-than-neoconservative oh-so mealy mouthed way, actually admitted to some doubt, but said his support for the war was based on "hope, over experience."

      Of course, this was true for all the war's supporters, but at least Friedman more or less admitted to being irrational.

      Still, hard to imagine anyone could be so cavalier with such a giant gamble which, in retrospect, looks like spending a year's salary on lottery tickets (and in week with a low jackpot).

      Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

      by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:10:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That was the last time I read him (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jfadden

        What a moron.  "Yeah, based on my knowledge of history and human nature this could get sticky, but on the other hand -- look, something shiny!"

        On the plus side, it cut down on the NYT first dibs scrimmages between my husband and I.

        •  I'm glad the NYT walled off their OpEd pages. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jfadden

          Now I'm not even tempted to see what really annoying idiots like Friedman & Brooks have to say. (If I want to see what some average idiots have to say, I can go over to the Moonie Times.)

          My dogs think we're all totally nuts, but how do I explain Daylight Savings Time to them?

          by Shiborg on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:52:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  'hope, over experience.' (0+ / 0-)

        In the words of George Carlin: "Fuck hope."

        And Friedman, too. Flat Earth, indeed. Maybe they should let Indians do his job for 1/100th of what he makes, and then he'll have a little more credibility to scold people that neo-liberal model is helping Americans.

  •  idiots (7+ / 0-)

    idiots on the right watch Top Gun and think they understand what war is.

    war is insanity, once combat isengaged it has nothing to do about god and country, and everything to do about watching your buddies back and trying to get home in one piece.

    war is failure, war is failure of diplomacy, failure of understanding, failure of philosophy, failure of leadership, failure of ideas.  If you have to lead your country to war you are a FAILURE.

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:55:05 PM PDT

  •  No apology (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kestrel, homo neurotic, jfadden, lgmcp

    will be forthcoming. This is the president who infamously couldn't name one mistake when asked.

    Sure, I think Bush knows he screwed up quite a few things.  But the Rove directed plan is "Never admit you are wrong about anything."

    Funny, but I think a little humility could serve this president well.  

    •  I think you're missing the point. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Subway Serenade, jfadden

      You're right, the Shrubbies are a lost cause; that goes without saying.  I think the point is all of those GOP types who are awakening like Rip van Winkle to the realization that something bad has happened; for them there may be some hope but only if they admit their mistake!

      Still it is amusing to imagine a Shrub speech where he "assumes responsibility" for the mess he's made and issues a nonapology apology.  Maybe it'll be an SNL skit or somesuch.  He'ld be a total loss if you couldn't laugh at him (and that still leaves him just this side of being totally worthless).

      --- January 2009: A time to mend!

      by KingBolete on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:23:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Never gonna happen (8+ / 0-)

    And what we who criticized the Iraqi invasion deserve is an unqualified apology.

    I appreciate your sentiments. You've captured the emotional, political and philosophical in one well-written piece.

    But if you think any of these fascist rat bastards would ever show an inkling of regret, much less offer anything remotely resembling an apology, then you're smoking something better than what I have. Accountability in this administration and the electorate that foisted it on us went the way of the buffalo in December of 2000.

    I'll take "I resign" or "The jury finds the defendant guilty on all counts" as really swell consolotation prizes. I'm not picky.

    -GFO

  •  Susan G, I adore you in the Internetty kind (11+ / 0-)

    of way of not really knowing you but feeling profound admiration and gratitude for your articulate expression of my thoughts.

  •  Apologize to the Iraqis first and foremost n/t (5+ / 0-)

    •  Yes, I would love to see that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lisa, lgmcp

      The next president apologizing to all Iraqis. After all, America lost only... what, 2000 troops so far? Iraqis lost about 30000 people, adjusted for population x15... it's as if America lost almost half a million people!

      (the US lost only about 300000 in WW2)

      So yes, let's hear an apology to the Iraqis first.

  •  Just in case... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Lisa, station wagon, jfadden

    Someone from the right happens to read this. Listen to this and please stop impugning my patriotism and my faith. I lost a lot of dear friends on 9/11. I supported the campaign in Afghanistan, even though it was a "failure of imagination" that spanned several administrations.

    Hear my cry. I'm an American, just like you.

    Red Line Blues

    Love Songs From Ground Zero

    by Subway Serenade on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:58:58 PM PDT

  •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rockhound

    SusanG, today you are my hero.

    Time Magazine should run this piece.

  •  that was awesome. n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral
  •  Fuhgeddaboudit (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Babsnc, jfadden

    Their great-grandkids may apologize to our great grandkids, but you'll ever get an apology out of these rat finks.

    I hate to Godwin miyself, but its the less extreme version of the "good German" effect, or the "Everyone was at Woodstock" effect.

    Here's what you'll hear from them in 20 years - "Oh no, I NEVER supported that horrid man.  Saw right through his lies from the getgo."

    "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

    by nightsweat on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:00:32 PM PDT

  •  Thank you, especially... (5+ / 0-)

    For the part that reminds us that "when military force is inevitable", it is a time for gravity and decorum.  And not a time for swaggering bravado.

  •  Right on. (5+ / 0-)

    While I am proud to know that I was right (RIGHT, RIGHT RIGHT!!!) and that they were all wrong (wrong, wrong, wrong), somehow it doesn't help much knowing that the fools who got us into this mess (and that group inxcluded far too many Dems - both citizens and elceted) are responsible) have caused such grief to our nation and Iraq.
    YOU who thought Saddam had WMD,
    YOU who believed Bush
    YOU who believed Cheney,
    YOU who thought that even if there were no WMD, it was worth destroying a nation because Saddam wasn't a very nice guy,
    How does it feel to have blood on your hands? Have you been able to remove the stain yet?
    I too want an apology. While I am glad there are more and more seeing the light, I am angry that you were such gullible fools in the first place. Look what you have done.

    "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    by MA Liberal on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:01:18 PM PDT

  •  On behalf of all of us who worked for McGovern (8+ / 0-)

    We're still waiting for an apology on that one, too.

    Somehow I don't think we'll get it anytime soon...

  •  Good job...although.... (0+ / 0-)

    under certain circumstances, you actually can 'force democracy at the point of a gun' -- witness Japan.  That history and that memory, for many, allowed the oversimplification by average people in our country, resulting in Vietnam and Iraq...and god knows what else to come.

    Complexity isn't our strong suit and neither is confession.  So...it ain't gonna happen.  If we had half a chance to learn from our mistakes, those of us who lived and protested through the Vietnam War would never have let Iraq happen.  The Swiftboaters, however, still won't give it up on Vietnam and carried a lot of the country with them through the Kerry campaign.

    Life is an IQ test and we are doomed.  Nevertheless...fight on.

    Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

    by oldpro on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:01:56 PM PDT

    •  true, but... (0+ / 0-)

      we didn't launch an unprovoked invasion of Japan.

      -8.25, -6.26 "I'm not superstitious. But, I AM a little stitious." - Michael Scott

      by snookybeh on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 02:15:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Beside the point. (0+ / 0-)

        True enough, but not germane.  There was no reason to think that Japan, with its history, would ever be a democratic country (or an anti-war society) no matter what.  That is the parallel some use for an excuse to 'believe' that it could happen in Iraq...

        Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

        by oldpro on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 02:53:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not true (0+ / 0-)

          Japan was actually famed for its commitment to both modern industrial production and its trends to parliamentary democracy.

          Had the US and Western powers not tried to screw over Japan and to colonially control all of East Asia, maybe that trend would have continued.

          What, have people forgotten the whole thing about fascism?

          Fascism is not mysterious for having taken root in perpetually authoritarian societies.

          No one would have been surprised that an authoritarian movement had arisen under authoritarian regimes.

          Fascism was notorious for being an anti-modernist movement that took over specifically in the most modern and the most democratic areas.

          •  Frame of reference... (0+ / 0-)

            ...for your first sentence?  What time frame are you talking about?

            Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

            by oldpro on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:06:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Brief response from Wiki (0+ / 0-)

              Work calls.  US & Western power manipulation of their east Asian colonial policies vis a vis Japan not here.  But, for example, compare below to that of Iraq.  Japan was a million times better candidate for restoration of parliamentary democracy than a destroyed Iraq.  That was the main point.

              World War I to End of World War II

              In a manner perhaps reminiscent of its participation in quelling the Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the century, Japan entered World War I and declared war on the Central Powers. Because Japan's role in World War I was limited largely to attacking German colonial outposts in East Asia, it permitted Japan to expand its influence in Asia and its territorial holdings in the Pacific. Acting virtually independently of the civil government, the Japanese navy seized Germany's Micronesian colonies. It also attacked and occupied the German coaling port of Qingdao in the Chinese Shandong peninsula. The post-war era brought Japan unprecedented prosperity. Japan went to the peace conference at Versailles in 1919 as one of the great military and industrial powers of the world and received official recognition as one of the "Big Five" of the new international order. It joined the League of Nations and received a mandate over Pacific islands north of the Equator formerly held by Germany. Japan was also involved in the post-war Allied intervention in Russia, occupying Russian (Outer) Manchuria and also north Sakhalin (with its rich oil reserves). It was the last Allied power to withdraw from the interventions against Soviet Russia (doing so in 1925).

              During the 1920s, Japan progressed toward a democratic system of government in a movement known as 'Taisho Democracy'. However, parliamentary government was not rooted deeply enough to withstand the economic and political pressures of the late 1920s and 1930s, during which military leaders became increasingly influential. These shifts in power were made possible by the ambiguity and imprecision of the Meiji Constitution, particularly its measure that the legislative body was answerable to the Emperor and not the people, and the 2.26 Incident. Party politics came under increasing fire because it was believed they were divisive to the nation and promoted self-interest where unity was needed. As a result, the major parties voted to dissolve themselves and were absorbed into a single party, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association (IRAA), which also absorbed many prefectural organizations such as women's clubs and neighborhood associations. However, this umbrella organization did not have a cohesive political agenda and factional in-fighting persisted throughout its existence, meaning Japan did not devolve into a totalitarian state. The IRAA has been likened to a sponge, in that it can soak everything up, but there is little one could do with it afterwards. Its creation was precipitated by a series of domestic crises, including the advent of the worldwide economic depression in the 1930s and the actions of extremists such as the members of the Cherry Blossom Society, who enacted the 5.15 Incident.

              </