Fake photo of Baghdad used to bolster GOP's claims?

Howard Kaloogian (R) has posted a photograph on his campaign website which he claims to have recently taken in downtown Baghdad, to show how "calm" and "stable" the city was during his visit.

Check out the photo under the fold. I am no photographic expert, but to me, this does not appear to be a photo of Baghdad (or even Iraq) at all.

Here's why I think this photo was not taken in Iraq:

1)  The signs are all in Roman script.  (the signs that read edo, 2.Noter, etc.)  Where's the arabic?

2)  The couple holding hands in the front, right side of the picture.  First, the fact that they are walking down the street holding hands makes me think this is not from Baghdad.  Second, look at the woman's top (shirt).  It has spaghetti strap sleeves (shoulders exposed) and is awfully tight for Iraq.

Am I crazy, or is this not of Baghdad at all?

Check out the photo on Kaloogian's site here:

http://www.kaloogianforcongress.com/...

This is extremely important because Kaloogian is claiming that Iraq is much more calm and stable than most Americans believe.  His direct quote: "We took this photo of dowtown Baghdad while we were in Iraq.  Iraq (including Baghdad) is much more calm and stable than what many people believe it to be.  But, each day the news media finds any violence occurring in the country and screams and shouts about it - in part because many journalists are opposed to the U.S. effort to fight terrorism."

Just another reason to support Busby on April 11 and June 6.

Remember to support her here:

http://actblue.com/...

and check out her campaign site here:

http://www.busbyforcongress.org

UPDATE: A few days ago, Kaloogian challenged his supporters to outraise Busby's netroots account (which stands at about $16,000)--they met the challenge and raised $25,000 for him through his website! Remember to give if you can! The latest poll in this race shows Busby leading the pack of 18 candidates with a wopping 39% of the vote! Remember, taking back the House begins with this race!

•  can't get the photo to post!

  But if anyone else knows how to, please post the photo from Kaloogian's website into a comment.

  by anthonyLA on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:23:48 PM PDT

  •  The photo

    

    by coloradobl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:32:34 PM PDT

    •  THANK YOU!

      Don't know why i couldn't post it.

      The most non-Iraq elements of the photo:

      1.  The signs in English/Roman characters rather than Arabic

      2.  The couple wearing very western attire, holding hands...especialy her tight, pink, spaghetti strapped top.

      3.  The buildings aren't typical of Baghdad

      4.  The yellow cab...

      by anthonyLA on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:34:28 PM PDT

      •  i just came from cairo

        and from my experience there, i can tell you that, with the possible exception of the "green zone," there is absolutely no chance any woman would wear that top in baghdad, none

        by The Exalted on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:37:27 PM PDT

        •  Agreed

          This is probably the Green Zone.  That is, without a question UPS and the ONLY place they would deliver is in the Green Zone.  Either that, or it's not Bagdad.

          by hardleft on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:44:41 PM PDT

          •  the photo was taken in Turkey

            See comment from Kossack daristani and thread which follows it.

            by QuickSilver on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:42:21 PM PDT

            •  Here is a photo

              of a taxi in istanbul... de ja vu...

              

              by free speech zone on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:03:23 PM PDT

              •  They have yellow taxis in Baghdad

                See the photo here:

                http://image09.webshots.com/...

                (It's very large so I don't want to post it and slow everything down).

                by existenz on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:33:05 PM PDT

                •  good link to your photo

                  There's probably a bandwidth maxed out problem on your webshots image, but but it looks like the coral cache has it...

                  nice and big, 2400x1564 !!

                  (and about taxis... the make and model of the car is more important... lots of places have yellow taxis)

                  by Dr Seuss on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:26:36 PM PDT

                •  Orange and White...

                  is the other color combo for cabs in Iraq.

                  by guachi on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:26:04 PM PDT

                  •  like these

                    
                    

                    by permanentE on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:31:28 AM PDT

            •  for the record, Kaloogian's website caption

              Downtown Baghdad
              We took this photo of dowtown [sic] Baghdad while we were in Iraq. Iraq (including Baghdad) is much more calm and stable than what many people believe it to be.  But, each day the news media finds any violence occurring in the country and screams and shouts about it - in part because many journalists are opposed to the U.S. effort to fight terrorism.

              Before Kaloogian pulls the photo, it's worth noting what he wrote about it.

              by QuickSilver on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:29:06 PM PDT

              •  When he says he 'took' the photo

                he means he stole it off the internets while he was in downtown Baghdad. That just proves that it was calm enough for him access the internet. Why are you trying to twist his words? /snark

                by white blitz on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:49:37 AM PDT

            •  I agree. It looks like somewhere Turkey to me.

              The yellow taxi, the lettering, the zeitgeist, the woman's top. I've been there.

              by Shockwave on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:49:46 PM PDT

              •  Reasons I don't think it is Turkey

                Noter = Notary most likely (the 2 could indicate 2nd floor).
                Notary in Turkish is Notar, not Noter

                The couple looks Arabic not Turkish.

                Another reason not Baghdad - advertising billboards?
                doubtful

                by seanflynn on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:58:23 PM PDT

                •  My mistake

                  Notary in Turkish is indeed Noter

                  by seanflynn on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:23:00 PM PDT

                  •  another option

                    Kurdistan somewhere, much safer and may explain the turkish language on the signs

                    by smtfsc on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:18:38 AM PDT

            •  a summary of the thread

              AnthonyLA, this thread currently stretches to more than 700 comments. It is in need of an update summarizing what was discovered by Kossacks.

              Here's my take:

              1. Although Kossacks carefully examined whether this could reflect some part o Baghdad, and a few comments flirted with other possible locales around the world, the broad consensus was that this photo was taken in Turkey. The street signs and other details are Turkish. Kossack daristani deserves credit for the most incisive revelation:

              Photo definitely taken in Turkey (76+/0-)

              The photo was definitely taken in Turkey; the sign "2.Noter" is for the "2nd Notary Public" (in a given district); the yellow taxicab in the front/right is a typical Turkish cab.  The words "carsi" (market or bazaar) and "alis" (first part of the word "alisveris" = shopping, as in "alisveris merkezi" = "shopping center") are not EVER used in Arabic.

              Any Turk would recognize this as a typical street scene in Turkey.

              by daristani on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:55:27 PM PST

              2. Where specifically in Turkey was this photo taken? We apparently don't know yet, although the Turkish press has been notified. But one thing is for sure: it does no good to Google the phrase “2.noter” and look for a phone number, because that won’t narrow anything down. Countless cities and towns in Turkey have a “2.noter”, as well as a “1.noter”, “3.noter”, “4.noter”, etc. Someone published a phone number for a “2.noter” in Marmaris, a Turkish seaside resort, and other Kossacks ran with the assumption that the photo was specific to that town. (That notary almost certainly woke today to find his voicemail full...)

              3. There are ethnic Turks in Iraq. So was this just simply some sleepy cosmopolitan corner of Baghdad, where signs are in Turkish? Where Edo ice cream, a Turkish brand, is sold out of shops with yellow awnings? Where brown UPS trucks deliver packages, as the eagle-eyed conjcm pointed out? (Yes, it turns out, UPS delivers to Iraq.) We discovered, from the thread, that although Edo Ice Cream had hopes at one point of opening a branch in Baghdad, as it has in many other countries in the Mediterranean and Middle East, it has apparently not done so yet in Baghdad.

              4. The thread revealed that many Kossacks had been to both Baghdad and Turkey. Though Baghdad mostly has white cabs, we learned, it does have some yellow cabs; however, the cabs in the image closely resemble Turkish cabs in shape. Other observations: the flowerpots strongly resemble others seen in Istanbul, though similar flowerpots may exist in other parts of Turkey. My favorite observation was from Kossack huppster, who pointed out the large Lenny Kravitz billboard on a building on the right of the street. (Anyone know the specific album?) To put it mildly, that Lenny Kravitz billboard is quite unlike other signs and advertisements typically seen in the Green Zone.

              5. Why is all of this important? It wouldn’t be, obviously, if Howard Kaloogian hadn’t published the photo with this caption:

              Downtown Baghdad
              We took this photo of dowtown [sic] Baghdad while we were in Iraq. Iraq (including Baghdad) is much more calm and stable than what many people believe it to be.  But, each day the news media finds any violence occurring in the country and screams and shouts about it - in part because many journalists are opposed to the U.S. effort to fight terrorism.

              Kaloogian is making an ideological point, accusing the media of lying about the conditions in Iraq. Kossacks, in turn, are accusing him of lying on his website and lying about what he saw on his visit to Baghdad.

              6. Another important point: even though this photo is from Turkey, not Iraq, there are a thousand other ways that a photograph can misrepresent what daily life is like in a country at war (as Juan Cole pointed out in an e-mail about this to MarkinSanFran).

              Having been involved in the unmasking of Ben Domenech,  I’m aware that the news media is sometimes unaware (or lazy) when it comes to reading a Kos thread as opposed to a Kos diary.  The news media doesn’t always put the comments in a wider context, or weigh the evidence the way we do. But the problem can be avoided if a Kos diary summarizes what the thread has found.

              Maybe this comment will help them, or anyone else who surfs into this late. And thanks again, anthonyLA, for a great catch! Sleuthing around this has been fun for many of us, and has shown the startling power of a convergent web intelligence. Kos at its best.

              by QuickSilver on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:01:05 AM PDT

              •  Oakley sunglasses

                That ad on the right appears to be for Oakley sunglasses, not for a Lenny Kravitz album or tour. (Democratic Underground has also done an extensive study of the photo.)

                by QuickSilver on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:31:47 AM PDT

                •  Not Lenny K

                  I agree the big ad isn't Lenny Kravitz; it probably isn't even a man but a woman.

                  I also did some research into sunglasses, etc. but I haven't found this particular ad on the internet. It really could be anything: fashion, make-up or whatever. Nevertheless, given the size of this ad and the woman I believe is shown on it, I don't think it is very likely such an ad could be found in Baghdad, for several reasons: first, it depicts a woman in a more Western-like pose (visibility of her hair); second, such ads cost loads of money and I find it very unlikely any local or even major make-up, fashion or sunglasses-firm would already have included Baghdad of all places in their world-wide marketing campaign.

                  Regarding the UPS-van, it is extremely unlikely, given the amount of attacks on US forces, US contractors, translators, etc., that a marked UPS van would at this time be able to drive around downtown Baghdad as the picture suggests.

                  by ElGringo on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:00:02 AM PDT

              •  More from Juan Cole

                Juan responded to my request for his take on the most likely location of the photo. He replied:

                This is definitely a street scene from Turkey.  On the right, a sign begins with a C with a cedilla under it, which is a character pronounced "ch" in modern Turkish that would never be used in a Latin-script sign in Baghdad.

                cheers  Juan

                by MarkInSanFran on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:51:40 AM PDT

              •  Excellent summary

                Thank you Quicksilver for going to the trouble of summarizing someone else's diary, since you don't get a lot of credit for doing so much work. Here is my (unimportant (because I am pretty unknown here), but grateful) 4.

                by Native Light on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:50:16 PM PDT

                •  I find the 'blogswarm' phenomenon fascinating

                  It was fun to play a bit part in it, though in truth I played no more role yesterday than to direct readers over a lot of accumulated misinformation and red herrings in the thread, steering them toward the most illuminating comment at the time (from daristani, though others had suggested Turkey, too).

                  What's fascinating is what eventually triggered the positive identification of the photo: the '2.noter' and 'Edo' signs signalled Turkey, and the flowerpots and taxi (and for some, the cobblestone street and subway entrance) connoted Istanbul. Look up '2.noter' in various districts of Istanbul, e-mail your friends overnight, and pretty soon you will find this nondescript street corner. It sounds simple, but a lot of other information had to be considered, debated, and discarded before the truth finally came to light.

                  Detectives and intelligence analysts do this sort of work, of course, and it takes them hundreds and hundreds of hours. But in a 'blogswarm' it can happen at a furious pace, with revelations coming in very rapidly and there's a friendly community spirit as well as competitive edge to it.

                  And don't think the right wing doesn't know about this peculiar power of the Internet blogswarm: the 60 Minutes/Killian memos were largely debunked by a right wing blogswarm which may well have been conceived to disgrace '60 Minutes.' (I've no doubt the Killian memos were produced with Microsoft Word. But remember, there are still outstanding questions about whether the memos were generated from originals Killian's secretary, Marian Carr Knox, remembers typing in the early 1970s from what she called Killian's "cover-your-back file." Why forge copies of real documents from Bush's record? The whole goal, after all, was to disgrace '60 Minutes' -- make them run with a story of some of Bush's worst offences, then debunk the story and disgrace the messenger as well. Knox, who is a very convincing witness, says she remembers the specific words and phrases and the plain fact of Bush's preferential treatment in the National Guard, but she is sure she didn't produce those documents in the peculiar IBM typewriter format that can be so easily reproduced, embarrassingly enough, by Word.)

                  I suspect that Ben Domenech was appointed by the Washington Post so that right wing blogswarms similar to this could get a quick foothold in the traditional/mainstream media. It seems to me the authentication of bogus Iranian nuclear documents, for example, would have an extraordinary real time advantage if Domenech were still on the job propagating his various falsehoods. (We were damn lucky that he turned out to be a serial plagiarist, in addition to being so dishonest in other ways.) You can bet that if the right wing had discovered something as disgraceful as what was revealed about Kaloogian, it would already have been in Domenech's column.

                  Note that as of this writing, there's nothing in the Washington Post or New York Times about this Kaloogian photo. Nothing at all....

                  by QuickSilver on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:13:48 PM PDT

        •  I totally disagree

          Iraq was secular under Hussein. Western fashion was not uncommon in the cities.

          From Mother Jones, just before the war:

          We could go almost anywhere in Iraq in a regular car, unprotected," wrote the Wall Street Journal correspondent Farnaz Fassihi this February, in a wistful front-page story for her paper about the situation she found when she first arrived in 2003. "I wore Western clothes -- pants and T-shirts, skirts, sandals -- walked freely around Baghdad chatting with shopkeepers and having lunch or dinner with people I met."

          by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:45:44 PM PDT

          •  doesn't matter

            Kaloogian said he took this photo recently (i.e. on his recent visit to the country), during the war...

            by anthonyLA on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:49:19 PM PDT

            •  Why would that change it?

              If it's an area that's not controlled by the clerics and has some measure  of protection by Iraqi and U.S. forces then they could continue their secular ways.

              by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:51:42 PM PDT

              •  here's why

                During the US occupation of Iraq, the self-appointed rightwing fundamentalist mutaween have taken to the streets, enforcing sharia dress code.

                It's not as bad in Baghdad is it is in Sadr City, but it's pretty bad.  Just ask Riverbend.

                -Jay-

                by JayBat on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:10:20 PM PDT

                •  Okay

                  I'll concede. I'm trying to use logic, not  experience--and it's no substitute.

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:24:14 PM PDT

                  •  Wise and manly at the same time

                    Not many people get that question right, Earl. Big props. You just made my day.

                    by autoegocrat on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:21:19 PM PDT

                    •  Many thanks

                      But you do know I still lean toward the photo being from Baghdad? Only because it'll take for me substantial proof to call Koolio a liar. I want to hear his response. Or see him pull the photo. Then I'll take all my doubts away.

                      Cheers

                      by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:30:12 PM PDT

                      •  I have read your other comments...

                        ...and I take the opposite position, I lean toward the conclusion that the photo is from Turkey. I just saw a recognition from someone that experience trumps logic and I had to say something.

                        Keep your doubts. You seem like a good enough devil's advocate to me, because you aren't actually advocating for the Devil. You're just expressing natural skepicism, and that can never be a bad thing.

                        by autoegocrat on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:43:49 PM PDT

                        •  Truly isn't

                          I am confoundedby the Rigth's ability to groupthink; I'm depressed when I see it on the Left. It is embarassing and damgaing.

                          Have you seen the links that confirm what was taken as fact? The yellow taxis in Baghdad; the Turkomen's use of Latin alphabet..e there's still more to come on this.

                          Hey: Are you saying you've been to Turkey? Or live there? Obviously something I respect; but also the fact that you'r leaning means you're not sure.

                          Cheers

                          by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:49:35 PM PDT

                        •  I am leaning way the

                          other way now, since the comment from oldmanriver at the bottom of the thread.

                          Why can I still believe they're not that stupid?

                          Okay, I'm leaning way over now.

                          fucking good eye AnthonyinLA. Unbelievable.

                          by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:14:11 PM PDT

                      •  If it's legit...

                        He should be able to produce lots of peaceful pics of Baghdad.  I'm not entirely convinced it's not Baghdad, but surely someone could pinpoint the five story high "Lenny Kravitz" bilboard/mural.  It could be Ghadaffi as far as I can tell, but it seems like the #1 identifiable landmark in the pic.

                        by Moli on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:36:25 PM PDT

                        •  I'm thinking it is now

                          See my comment at the bottom

                          by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:41:37 PM PDT

                  •  You're using neither.

                    What you're using is a completely irrational assumption that Koosigian is neither lying or mistaken.

                    by jqb on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 01:56:31 AM PDT

                  •  the roman script is the giveaway

                    and it's not a western language (english, french, german, etc.).  it's the language spoken in whatever locale the photo was taken; turkish and kurdish are the only languages that use roman script in the islamic middle east.

                    besides, kaloogian is claiming this was taken in baghdad on his recent visit there.  he's obviously lying, even if it is a snapshot of some iraqi enclave not yet under the thumb of islamic extremists.  and the likelihood of that is extremely slim.

                    by hind on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:17:55 AM PDT

                •  umm isn't Dard City PART of Baghdad?

                  so isn't your penultimate sentece a bit misleading.  Do you mean "in the rest of Baghdad"???

                  by teacherken on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:06:40 PM PDT

                  •  you're correct, thanks

                    Ken, you're exactly right.  I thought that Sadr City was a separate city just outside Baghdad, but it is in fact a district of Baghdad proper.

                    So I should have said "not as bad in the rest of Baghdad as it is in Sadr City".

                    Still learnin' something new every day, thanks!
                    
                    

                    -Jay-

                    by JayBat on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:24:09 PM PDT

              •  you know, Earl,

                your persistence at offering the freeper inquisition of posts is getting old.

                by essexgreen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:56:08 AM PDT

          •  that desciption is very different

            it is very possible to wear pants and a t-shirt and be mostly covered.

            this woman's top is (i) tight and (ii) showing her shoulders and possibly more beneath her hair. neither is considered acceptable.

            and, i'll add, egypt, on which i base my opinion, is secular, probably much more secular than the state iraq currently finds itself in.

            by The Exalted on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:50:58 PM PDT

            •  But much less than

              the state Iraq was formerly in. And the presence of American soldiers may make some who enjoyed the Western ways feel emboldened to flaunt it in certain areas of the city. The clerics do not own it all.

              by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:55:03 PM PDT

              •  um no

                egypt is a free, democratic state

                if you think anyone in baghdad is "flaunting" their western ways, you should turn off your faux news

                by The Exalted on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:03:51 PM PDT

                •  Well..

                  If you can call Mubarak's Egypt free and democratic...but I digress...

                  by gladkov on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:08:25 PM PDT

                •  Clip the attitude

                  I'm being healthily skeptical. Are you trying to give the image that Cairo is some swinging free state? Obviously you won't try that for long. I haven't been to Cairo for twenty years and I've never been to Baghdad, but my understanding of Irq was that it was the most secular of Mid-Eastern Muslim nations.

                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

                  For some info.

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:17:39 PM PDT

                •  Egypt is a dictatorship with phony elections

                  who are you kidding?

                  by Cheez Whiz on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:33:15 PM PDT

              •  I agree. Freedom really is on the march. (nt)

                [/snark]

                by HellofaSandwich on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:18:43 PM PDT

              •  Earl, the GI's aren't even allowed to drink beer.

                When was the last war that happened in?

                by John West on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:19:20 PM PDT

                •  You got back up on that? n/t

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:23:47 PM PDT

                •  Not allowed

                  But they do. Beer for Soldiers

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:27:00 PM PDT

                  •  Here ya go:

                    http://www.estripes.com/...

                    by John West on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:47:54 PM PDT

                    •  shudder

                      But, but, they said we don't condone torture.

                      by justme on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:52:13 PM PDT

                  •  Not even a response from Earl after he asked

                    for verification of my statement and I provided it. Remind me not to bother next time.

                    by John West on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:18:43 PM PDT

                    •  earl is a closet freeper

                      his MO is well-established

                      by essexgreen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:57:04 AM PDT

                •  When I was in the service...

                  Beer was served at the US Embassy in Karachi, Pakistan -- but not elsewhere in the city.  

                  I heard, though, that hashish was available on every street corner and in every cab.

                  Does anyone know if both beer and hashish are illegal in Moslem countries?  Do they both have the same stigma attached to them?  

                  by Kayakbiker on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:52:39 PM PDT

                  •  No alchohol allowed in Muslim countries..

                    hashish depends on the country you are in and whether they enforce any laws against it. But alchohol is strictly forbidden to Muslims, as is pork. In Saudi Arabia, you cannot bring in either alchohol or pork into the country, even if you are a diplomat and/or a non-Muslim. I had a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for two years, and when he got back all he wanted was bacon, pork chops and beer...LOL Ate nothing but pork and beer for a whole week, got sick as a dog.

                    by Demfem on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:26:11 PM PDT

                    •  Not all Muslim Countries

                      In Uzbekistan I lived next to a pig farm for 3 months.   It wasn't so bad except that the rats were HUGE.

                      Central Asians drink alot and love the sausage.

                      by paiges on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:49:23 AM PDT

                •  desert storm, General Order 1

                  basically said don't drink.  I was stationed in Qatar, which allows drinking, but we couldn't drink.  The Canadians stationed with us imported Molsons by the pallet load, they understand soldiers a lot better.  

                  by unterhausen on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:21:48 AM PDT

          •  that was then

            before the fundies were unleashed. they blow up music stores and stores suspected of selling liquor. it's a very, very different country these days. different in countless ways.

            "after the Rapture, we get all their shit"

            It's time: the albany project.

            by lipris on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:51:33 PM PDT

            •  Also before

              Ameican forces were there. Obviously a bolster to secular activity and western fashion.

              by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:53:24 PM PDT

              •  Oh Please

                American forces are in control of nothing except the Green Zone. The idea that the presence of American troops in Baghdad would enable a woman to dress that way is just silly.

                For good measure I will email Juan Cole and ask him. Always good to get a reality check instead of just nattering on about "gee, my opinion is...".

                by MarkInSanFran on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:27:06 PM PDT

                •  Like saying

                  it's "just silly". Okay.

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:34:49 PM PDT

                •  As in

                  Whether or not it's because of forces there, my point is that the West was embraced there, and there are no douby many eager to keep or get it back. And they would attempt to live that hope when they felt safe to do so.

                  Hey: It could be Baghdad, but Koolio placed the couple, eh?

                  by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:40:30 PM PDT

                  •  a rec for calling him 'Koolio'

                    heh. You're right about Kaloogian placing them for the photo. I was thinking that myself, maybe 2 off-duty/out-of-uniform US troops or something.

                    But even without the couple, there is still the question of the UPS truck, buildings, signs, etc.

                    by reid fan on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:12:01 PM PDT

                    •  Where is the UPS truck?

                      I don't see it

                      by Dysfraxion on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:29:55 PM PDT

                      •  In everybody's

                        imagination. Once it is written and it  agrees with the hive mind, it is true.

                        So's this.

                        by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:31:47 PM PDT

                        •  I don't think there's any question...

                          ...it's a UPS van.

                          You mention it just looks like a brown van but that particular shade of brown is only used by UPS (aside: I believe they have the formula mixed by PPG exclusively for them).

                          Is your argument because it's not a stereotypical UPS truck?   Because as far as I know they don't use the "Big Brown" everywhere in the world.  It looks to me to be the Mercedes Benz delivery van that they use in Europe.

                          But my question is why are you even arguing this point?  It doesn't matter since it's been established that UPS delivers in some capacity in Iraq so it's hardly proof either way.

                          by Prima on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:58:52 PM PDT

                          •  And i was the first to

                            mention that.

                            But the point was about hive mind. It still fits and it's an important enough topic. And how can you say tht there isn't any question? you have to know how silly that sounds about the paint. You think UPS has a patent on it in Iraq? and even if they did that someone could or would still use it if they wanted?

                            by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:05:56 PM PDT

                            •  I just see you arguing...

                              ...about things that don't need arguing.  Plus elsewhere you're arguing against a point that would support other arguments that you're making elsewhere.

                              Which makes me question what your goal is.  Is it the hive mind you're really upset about?  Because I can see your point early on about people jumping the gun but now it appears to be a rail against the perceived machine.  This just isn't a David and Goliath battle worth fighting over.

                              Would it have been nice if the facts were all in before folks jumped the gun?  Sure.  Is this the internet where a bear shits in the woods and people have already speculated what color it is, what time it happened and whether it used Charmin all before it's reported on the eleven o'clock news?  Absolutely. It's greatest benefits can be it's greatest failings.  Sensible people know this.  You can't save everyone from themselves.

                              And on the other thing,  Would it be impossible to duplicate the color?  It wouldn't be impossible.  Would there be any point to matching the color to the same exact shade in a country that has UPS service?  Likely not.  Perhaps it could be a little brand misdirection but as I said before, evidence (along with the guy who's also wearing UPS browns standing behind it) suggests that's a UPS delivery vehicle.

                              But, as I said before, it's a pointless argument since I'm not using it as proof one way or the other for the legitimacy of whether that's Iraq or not.

                              by Prima on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:35:24 PM PDT

                              •  If you're gonna accuse

                                me of that (1st paragrpah) back it up with an example. it is worthless and almost revealing without it.

                                things that don't need arguing? matter of opinion. I'm responding to things being said.

                                by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:45:56 PM PDT

                              •   If you're gonna accuse

                                me of that (1st paragrpah) back it up with an example. it is worthless and almost revealing without it.

                                things that don't need arguing? matter of opinion. I'm responding to things being said.

                                by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:56:45 PM PDT

                    •  The UPS truck?

                      You act like we KNOW it's a UPS truck. It looks like a brown van to me.

                      by Earl on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:30:52 PM PDT

          •  That was then, this is now

            "There are only a handful of fashion designers in Iraq, and most are women. The ascendance of fundamentalist groups and the violence have made life tough for designers.

            Asma Muhammed Ali, 35, who owns a shop and makes clothes, says most of the demand now is for the abaya, or head covering, and traditional folklore dresses. Even those aren't selling well, she says. "Most of the people with taste have gone abroad."
            http://www.usatoday.com/...

            (And a T-shirt is more modest than a spaghetti strap top.)

            by Catte Nappe on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:04:22 PM PDT

          •  Ever read Baghdad Burning

            A woman in Iraq writes it...this excerpt is from Feb 2005 a diary called "and Life goes on"

            She writes: An example is the situation in Baghdad today. The parties that have power in colleges today are actually the Iranian inclined Shia parties like Da’awa and SCIRI. Student representatives in colleges and universities these days mainly come from the abovementioned parties. They harass Christian and Muslim girls about what they should and shouldn’t wear.

            this next passage is when she went with her male cousin to the Ministry of Higher Education

            We were greeted in the reception area by a bearded man who scanned us disapprovingly. “Da’awachi,” my cousin whispered under his breath, indicating the man was from the Da’awa Party. What could he do for us? Who did we want? We wanted to have some documents legalized by the ministry, I said loudly, trying to cover up my nervousness. He looked at me momentarily and then turned to the cousin pointedly. My cousin repeated why we were there and asked for directions. We were told to go to one of the rooms on the same floor and begin there.

            “Please dress appropriately next time you come here.” The man said to me. I looked down at what I was wearing- black pants, a beige high-necked sweater and a knee-length black coat. Huh? I blushed furiously. He meant my head should be covered and I should be wearing a skirt. I don’t like being told what to wear and what not to wear by strange men. “I don’t work here- I don’t have to follow a dress code.” I answered coldly. The cousin didn’t like where the conversation was going, he angrily interceded, “We’re only here for an hour and it really isn’t your business.”

            by crkrjx on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:19:05 PM PDT

        •  I disagree and agree

          I am in Doha, Qatar right now, which is a Wahhabbi Islamic country (although not as strict as Saudi) and women can be seen wearing that attire, usually they are expatriates.

          With regards to the signs, every sign here in Doha has both Arabic and English. Is is the same in Baghdad? I don't know, I haven't been.

          by Paranoid Humanoid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:07:48 PM PDT

      •  They're doing so well in Baghdad

        that they now have tourists?

        That looks more like Mexico to me.

        by nupstateny on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:37:39 PM PDT

      •  Website

        If you guys would quit pounding that website, I'll post the picture on mine and give Anthony the link.

        by smokeymonkey on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:20:15 PM PDT

      •  I posted this way down

        but wanted it up here so people can use it...

        open image in new window to see full. this is the larger version they had on their web page. i opened it in photoshop... applied the unsharp mask filter 2x and made it 200% size...

        open in new window to see full

        

        by free speech zone on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:40:19 PM PDT

        •  Edo Ice Cream

          

          Edo is a Turkish brand of ice cream (dondurma), but they do have shops in other countries.

          by daulton on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:17:16 PM PDT

          •  That's good...

            I was putting on my tin foil hat and came up with a different EDO, which is an arms manufacturer...

            by marchmoon on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:22:42 PM PDT

          •  And 'Noter'

            means notary public in Turkish.

            Surely, with almost 80,000 registered Kossacks, someone can identify this city!

            by matt n nyc on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:35:02 PM PDT

            •  2noter

              There is a Turkish website, http://www.2noter.com.tr that I found doing a Google search for "2noter". That doesn't mean it's not Baghdad - but somebody with some knowledge of Turkey could call and ask where they have outlets.

              by joejoejoe on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:02:58 PM PDT

        •  Can you get the right side of this shot?

          There is a yellow sign with red lettering on the right-hand edge that appears to have the letter C with a cedilla under it. I don't know any Turkish, but this is a Turkish form for a soft C (not "G") sound. And not an Arabic character anywhere in the scene that I can see. Either this is from Turkey or from a very Turkish area of Baghdad.

          by profh on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:54:50 PM PDT

          •  Carsi -- Turkish for 'bazaar' and a Turkish chain

            store.

            by jqb on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:37:37 AM PDT

      •  some Howie background

        Howie's activities:
        He is a founder of Move America Forward, the outfit that organized the trip of right wing radio personalities (and himself) to Baghdad. Both he and MAF are tightly connected to Russo, Marsh, and Rogers , a PR firm which was also involved with the trip. RMR has a contract with Kurdistan which Kaloogian seems to be involved with, they're trying to push Kurdistan as a good place to invest. Since MAF and RMR are the ones that organized the trip, I wouldn't be surprised if they are the ones that supplied his campaign with pictures.
        "oops, our mistake."

        Howie is also very involved in Armenian activities- as far as I can tell a good cause that happens to conflict with US realpolitik right now. Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Would going to Armenia involve stopping in Istanbul?

        by HiBob on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:54:47 PM PDT

      •  The flowerpots and benches

        See ElGringo's comment above...

        by BrooklynRaider on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:52:36 PM PDT

      •  I don't know

        I have no background here, but it looks a lot like Koreatown in LA.

        by fabooj on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:22:45 PM PDT

      •  I agree with you

        It looks like Turkey or Germany.

        I heard someone say that all the cars in Iraq are white, which makes sense given the heat in the summer.

        That is a good question: are there yellow cabs in Iraq?

        by fightorleave on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:41:23 PM PDT

        •  yes to yellw cabs

          But you probably have seen the orange and white ones.  Very easy to spot when you see footage from Iraq.

          by guachi on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 08:28:56 PM PDT

      •  Blue structure

        the blue structure on the right side of the photo looks like the stairs leading down into a subway

        are there any subways in baghdad?

        by Tamifah on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:51:05 PM PDT

        •  saddam had begun to build a subway...

          ... but did not finnish.  Lost his money back in early ninties if you remember.  So i am pretty sure there are no street level entrances, like what you have in Istanbul, perhaps

          by smtfsc on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:51:47 AM PDT

      •  It's Marmaris, Turkey,

        a seaside resort town.

        Marmaris, Turkey !!!

        See my info & evidence (I'd say "proof" at this point) in my comment further downthread. I found it through the area code of the Notary's phone number posted by bewert.

        BTW, a good quick multilingual dictionary for finding translations of foreign words (practically any language) is here.

        by Donna in Rome on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:33:29 PM PDT

        •  I'm not disputing that it's not Baghdad, but

          the area code isn't shown in the photo, as far as I can tell.  I don't think doing a google search for "2. Noter" would pull up anything but any number of notary publics in Turkey or elsewhere.  (Someone has said elsewhere in the comments that "2. Noter" is just the Turkish term for notary public).

          Am I misunderstanding?  (It wouldn't be the first time!)

          by celticshel on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:10:46 PM PDT

    •  I emailed him.

      This was what I wrote:

      You sir, should be ashamed of yourself.  You are a liar and a crook.

      The photo that you have placed on your website to show just how "calm" Bagdad is is  a phony.  It was taken in Turkey, a country I have visited many times.

      Did you really think that people would fall for this?  Did  you really think that people would be  so ignorant?

      Your lies shame our military, shame our nation and  shame you.

      You make me sick.

      environmentalist
      Taos, New Mexico

      by environmentalist on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:08:48 PM PDT

      •  email address:

        [e-mail]

        by environmentalist on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:09:52 PM PDT

    •  Tall Buildings in the Horizon could be more

      recognizable landmarks.  At 12 o'clock through the haze.  See the photo blown up.

      by mwchicago04 on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:09:44 PM PDT

      •  I don't think those are tall buildings

        I don't think those are "tall buildings" -- I think they're what has happened to images of power lines/streetlights through many generations, resizings, "rasterizations" of a low-res photo --

        by maren a on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:37:46 PM PDT

    •  I am almost sure this in not anywhere in Iraq

      I would say about 99% sure.  I think it is some mediterrianian(sp) country.  
      Cabs in Iraq are orange and white, men hold hands with each other not with women, and what appears to be a police car in the back is a little suspicious too because most police vehicle in Iraq are toyota pick-ups. Ohh and the blue jeans those are a rare luxury item in Iraq as well.

      by smtfsc on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:14:16 AM PDT

  •  Transfer the photo to a file on..,,,

    your computer, then from there to Photobucket or some other hosting site. I'm not sure if this would be a copyright infringement.

    by irate on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:34:04 PM PDT

    •  Don't sweat it.

      Used for journalistic purposes constitutes "Fair Use."

      by dj angst on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:37:44 PM PDT

  •  Picture is taken in Anatolia (Turkye)

    Can't recall the actual name of the town (Could be Edirme). It's been a while since I was there, but it sure a Heck isn't Baghdad (downtown or otherwise.).

    by Kalong on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:46:47 PM PDT

    •  The street signs

      I don't see any signs in this picture with Arablic lettering on them. None. None at all. Maybe it is a Turkish city. Turkey adopted the Roman alphabet 80 years ago.

      by Kimball Cross on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:50:03 PM PDT

    •  That's Turkish on the signs...

      As far as I can tell... definitely not arabic, even in Roman script.

      by Cletus from Canuckistan on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:58:20 PM PDT

    •  Googling 2.Noter and EDO...

      (words visable in the picture) brings up a bunch of references to Turkey.  Mostly not in English so hard to be specific. I think this guy might just be a liar though.

      by olddembroad on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:18:13 PM PDT

      •  2.noter phone number

          COMPANY     2. Noter  
          PHONE     [phone]  

        (Thank you google)

        Maybe someone who speaks the language can call them and see if they can identify which office it is.

        by bewert on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:09:06 PM PDT

        •  if we make the assumption that 252

          is the COUNTRY CODE .. it is Somalia ..

          I doubt it is Somalia.

          Another mystery.

          by shpilk on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:24:31 PM PDT

        •  Posted above

          "Noter" means notary public in Turkish.

          And Edo is a Turkish brand of ice cream.

          Case closed.

          Never believe a single thing a wingnut tells you.

          by matt n nyc on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:38:17 PM PDT

        •  How did you come up with that specific number

          just by googling such a vague term as "2.Noter" (when "Noter" just means "Notary Public")?

          I find it brings up 41,000 pages.

          When I saw it, I took your info and ran with it, and came up with the idea that the city must be Marmaris (area code = 252), but now I'm not so sure. How did you narrow the search results down to that specific number, to that specific notary?

          by Donna in Rome on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:52:43 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, I'll admit

      I've never been to Turkey, but my first thought when I saw that photo was, "I'll bet that's Turkey."

      by steve davis on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:32:50 PM PDT

    •  More information

      I totally agree that this is Turkey.  I travel in both Turkey and Iraq, I've spent time in Baghdad, and I am sure this is Turkey for the following reasons:

      (1)  The taxi is the kind that is used in Turkey but never Iraq.

      (2)  The street in the background is cobblestone - there are no cobblestone streets in Baghdad, or anywhere else I have been in Iraq, period. They are quite common in Turkey.

      (3)  One of the signs appears to have a Turkish letter for "sh" which is an "s" with a little noodle on the bottom.

      (4)  They don't use parasols in Iraq at open air restaurants (on the left in the image)

      (5)  The snake posted an image carefully cropped and low-enough resolution to prevent a definitive language ID on any of the signs.  This photo appears to me meant to decieve.  It would be easy enough to post a photo of Iraqis at peace and make the same point, but he wanted a photo that looks more like a nice suburb in the US to make his point.

      The dude is a slime mold.  

      There are English language signs in Iraq.  Much of Iraq is actually more peaceful than you would believe (although not Baghdad.)  Women still dress like that in some rich neighborhoods and occasionally in Kurdistan.  But this is not Iraq and it is really unbelievable that this particu