Wes Clark defends Generals who call for Rumsfeld's resignation (podcast)

General Clark just released his latest podcast; and speaks passionately in defense of the Generals who recently called for the resignation of Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.  Clark shares some of his professional experiences working with Generals Anthony Zinni, John Batiste, Charles Swannack, and John Riggs and defends their integrity and right to dissent.  He recognizes that each must have wrestled, personally, with their own conscience before personally deciding that "speaking out' was the right thing to do, especially when they believe that our national security is at stake.

Clark respectfully addresses General Richard Meyers recent criticism, as well, who believed that it was inappropriate at this time of war.  Although he has the highest regards and respect for Meyers, Clark argues that regardless of whether they're retired, they still have an obligation to speak out, as citizens; and more importantly, it's their duty and their right.

Clark closes by stating that the issue is all about leadership and accountability.  It applies from the bottom to the top of the "chain of command."   Donald Rumsfeld made bad judgements.  Regardless of how much dissent Meyers or any other Generals conveyed about the strategies for war, Rumsfeld chose not to listen, and in the end, he must be held accountable.  

It's worth a listen!!  

To listen, you need to be registered with iTunes or you can download, "Integrity and Dissent" (mp3)
at WesPAC, Clark's website.

•  Impressive N/T

  by Tinfoil Hat on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 08:41:34 PM PDT

  •  Yes, he is.

    Feingold is my first choice for president, but Clark is up there too.  I think he may be the most electable of our potential democratic candidates.  In fact, I would love to see a ticket with both their names.

    I like Gore also, and I know he's very popular here, but at this point, I don't think he's so electable.

    by blueoasis on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:25:36 PM PDT

    •  As a potential Dem voter

      I'd vote for Clark, but not Feingold, and that's despite Feingold's politics being closer to my own.  He's just... too political.  Clark has actually had a life outside of politics, and that rather matters to me right now.

      The President is not my master. He is Chief among my servants.

      by DemCurious on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:41:14 AM PDT

  •  He really is...

    General Clark has been hammering Bush, Rumsfeld, etc. for years now. This is not news that he believes Rumsfeld needs to go.

    General Clark simply came into the office today, and just wanted to record this podcast. No notes. No prep. Just speaking from his heart.

    Again. Impressive.

    by lhuynh on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:24:19 PM PDT

  •  Duty, Honor, Country

    Wes Clark is still "the PRESIDENT we were promised when we were children"

    by Best in Show on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:32:36 PM PDT

  •  Shouldn't need said though

    A citizen-soldiery go right back to being citizens the moment they leave the military.  If these retired officers have no right to dissent, then none of us do.

    The President is not my master. He is Chief among my servants.

    by DemCurious on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:43:22 AM PDT

•  should have been Clark not Kerry

  by paragon88 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:07:19 PM PDT

  •  Or at the very least

    It should have been Clark, not Edwards. He was the first one I heard defending Kerry from the swoftboat liars, when Edwards was nowhere to be found. He might have actually won his homestate too.

    by jj32 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:51:35 PM PDT

    •  Yep

      I was a die-hard "Clark for VP"-er on the Kerry boards in 2004.  

      After Kerry chose Edwards, he kindof grew on me, but it would have been a completely different campaign if Clark had been in the VP spot.  

      by ChiGirl88 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:48:56 PM PDT

      •  I didn't research the primaries...

        I could give you excuses, but the truth of the matter is that I should have done a better job at it. I'm really sorry. Honestly though, would we have the same outcome? And I try not to think about the past. At the same time, if you do not learn from your past, those same tests of your character will come up in your future...

        Ugh...it gets so confussing sometimes doesn't it?

        -earthy

        by earthy crunchy1 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:29:32 PM PDT

  •  Bush and Rummy are lining up other generals, but

    ...having them dissent against the dissenters is counterproductive to the military at a time of war.

    Unfortunately, they pit military against military, which hurts our military efforts; rather than against the strategic policy blunders of this Administration.  Instead, if these generals truely agree with Rummy, then they should defend exactly why they do so; rather than criticize the integrity of their own peers in the military who have legitimate arguments.

    General William Odom has been critical against Iraq policy, yet stated that he would not express dissent publicly on whether Rumsfeld should resign or not, at least not yet. It said it was a personal conviction, solely, and he would not profess his convictions onto his own peers.  

    In fact, it should be noted that neither Clark nor any of the other generals who criticized Bush or Rumsfeld, ever criticized the Generals who criticised them.

    So, I find it disappointing, although not surprising, that MSM and this administration are engaged in another diversionary tactic, intent on distracting attention from the real issue.

    I beleive that the Bush Administration are 'blaming the troops," rather than calling for a success strategy, real leadership and full accountability from the top.  Doing so would best boost morale for our troops at a time of war, as they realize a fresh course towards victory under true leadership.

    by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:53:12 PM PDT

•  Integrity, dissent

  ...and starch!

  Heavy on the starch!
  True patriots, all of them.

  by Sybil Liberty on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:15:33 PM PDT

•  my opinion:

   
  good to hear Gen Clark speak out!!   yeah!

  i'm sick of the non-elected think-tankers and chickenhawks that are part of this administration who have made America a worldwide bully and ignored our Constitution.  

  thanks to these brave generals are looking out for us.
  

  by sc kitty on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:15:56 PM PDT

•  Money quote

  "I think this country's on a road to nowhere under the leadership of President George Bush"

  by BOHICA on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:21:10 PM PDT

  •  I have seen war

    "I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded . . . I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed . . . I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives.
    I hate war." -FDR

    by velvetdays on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:28:09 PM PDT

•  I keep thinking about these people

  Clark's description of his association provides detail for this story. Just folks, busting their butts and coming up through the ranks. They've lived accountability, watching what is going on must have really pissed them off.

  This podcast needs to be heard and listened to by the American people until the spinners are told to STFU. I don't know if I have the kind of guts to publically challenge people who have the power to make my life a living hell.

  I'll be mailing this link around, with some faint hope that maybe we can yell louder than the MSM.

  by Donna Z on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:23:35 PM PDT

•  the spirit

  the spirit in which Wes makes his comment about Meyers not understanding the culture is simply superb!!!

  by velvetdays on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:26:43 PM PDT

  •  That would be 'Dicky'

    I don't know why that cracks me up.

    by Donna Z on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:29:42 PM PDT

    •  I know

      why it cracks you up ;)

      But more seriously I don't think it is meant as gratuitious insult, is probably really his nickname- but if that is not the case- good on WKC for not so subtle undermining!!

      Liberty Valance: You lookin' for trouble, Doniphan?
      Tom Doniphon: You aimin' to help me find some?

      by velvetdays on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 09:33:13 PM PDT

      •  In past interviews,he's always referred to Meyers

        this way. Addressing each other through nicknames reflects more the mutual respect and friendship that they share towards each other, in my view.

        by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:00:12 PM PDT

        •  I think so too

          Knight- yes, i agree. A mark of familiarity/nickname, don't really think it was intended as a slight of any kind.  

          by velvetdays on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 05:03:05 AM PDT

  •  That is the part of Clark's thinking

    that impresses me the most in this podcast.  It is such a deeply held fundemental belief in the essence of Democracy, and the obligation of all citizens to contribute what they can to the most important debates facing our nation.

    by Tom Rinaldo on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:42:51 AM PDT

    •  The Generals pronouncements against W are severe

      ...and are especially damaging towards the policies and leadership of this administration, because it takes away their trump card that they've always fallen back upon to silence their critics against the war - the military men and women in uniform.

      Instead, Bush and the GOP have misUSED and misLED  our military in war to mostly win favor towards a political agenda, rather than the overall security interests of the country.

      by Knightrider on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:10:28 AM PDT

•  John Batiste will appear on AC360 soon.

  His interview was very impressive.  And I hope everyone hears him.

  He noted that he retired from service solely so that he could dissent publicly against the policies of this Administration and particularly Rumsfeld management and leadership problems.

  by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:03:56 PM PDT

  •  Gen Batiste (CNN) 'That's exactly what I'm saying

    I think this interview best argues why Rumsfeld must resign.

    General John Batiste - Partial transcript from CNN (w/Lou Dobbs):
    
    Batiste retired and sacrificed his career in the military to tell us why Rumsfeld must be held accountable and replaced as SoD.  It's not the military,  ... it's the civilian leadership (lack of) and their policies (strategic blunders) ...
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    

    DOBBS: Let's talk about one of the -- one of the criticisms that of this,  and why haven't the generals,  why weren't the generals asserting themselves more while they were in uniform and in command. Your answer?
    

    BATISTE: In uniform,  you can bet we asserted ourselves,  and you recall that we have a special culture,  where we stay within our chain of command. And there's debate. There's great debate. Sometimes heated. But when the commander makes a decision,  you have two options. One,  you can salute and execute the best idea you've ever heard,  or you can get out. And in my case,  I chose to stay and fight with my soldiers.
    

    It's interesting,  though,  that I retired on principle in part,  so you and I could have this discussion this evening. If I was in uniform,  I couldn't do this. I'd be violating the uniform code of military justice.
    

    DOBBS: And as you -- and as we have reported here,  General,  I just wanted to have it on the record,  I wanted to hear you say that,  I know our audience did as well.
    

    [snip] You have a high regard throughout the military. What would you have the United States military right now,  if Rumsfeld steps down,  what should the general staff of the United States Army and the leadership of the Marine Corps,  our military in Iraq,  be doing?
    

    BATISTE: Lou,  we've got the best military in the world. And operationally and tactically,  we're winning it on the backs of our soldiers,  our Marines,  our airmen,  our sailors and our incredible families that support them every day. To answer your question,  that's really a decision for the secretary of defense,  whoever that person may be. That's a big -- a big choice,  big decision he needs to make.
    

    That's why we need a new secretary of defense. We have one now who has repeatedly made strategic mistakes,  one after the other. And my question is,  if we're going to continue the war on terrorism for a long time,  and I suspect we are,  why would we want to continue riding the same horse,  where he has such a dismal track record?
    

    DOBBS: General,  and this has to be asked,  because this military as terrific as it is,  no one supports our men and women in uniform more than me. I have to tell you,  I have great questions about the command staff of our military,  the general staff.
    

    We've been in Iraq for three years. I've watched,  as did all Americans,  a brilliant campaign to take Baghdad. The difficulty of fighting this insurgency is clear. I listened to Donald Rumsfeld talk about thugs and dead-enders when the insurgency was first manifesting itself in Iraq,  talk of 10, 000,  to 20, 000 members of the insurgency,  keeping at bay the world's most powerful military. [snip] What do you say to those who say this military should be delivering more to the men and women we're putting in harm's way?
    

    BATISTE: Lou,  I think we went to war with the wrong war plan. We had 12 years of deliberate planning that went on,  the most intensive analytic process you've ever seen.
    

    DOBBS: Right.
    

    BATISTE: And multiple secretaries of defense supported by their chairman and the joint staffs that supported them approved these plans. It got better and better every single year. So why,  then,  did we commit ourselves with one-third of the number of troops that we needed to,  a,  take down a regime and then,  b,  build the peace. The building the peace part is the hardest part. If you look at the history of Iraq,  you know that there's going to be an insurgency. There is no question. The country of Iraq is not homogeneous at all.
    

    The British drew a boundary,  a lady named Gertrude Bell did it in the 1920s,  and it lumped together all of these ethnic and tribal and religious,  an incredible mix that just doesn't come together very well. So we had to anticipate this.
    

    DOBBS: And as I understand it,  general,  we did,  with a plan 10 years in the making,  which was thrown aside,  correct?
    

    BATISTE: That's exactly what I'm saying.

    by Knightrider on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:41:14 AM PDT

•  This is very good.

  Really appreciate hearing this podcast. I'm so sick of those saying dissent means you're not supporting the troops. Maybe just maybe, supporting the troops means not sending them to war in the first place. Maybe just maybe, supporting the troops is ensuring the troops are being guided by the correct strategy. And maybe just maybe, that means canning that idiot Rumsfeld.

  by Gopher Bob on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:12:20 PM PDT

•  Direct download

  Of course, we here at WesPAC, would love folks to subscribe.

  But if you just want the direct link to the audio, here it is:

  http://media.libsyn.com/...

  by lhuynh on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:16:36 PM PDT

•  CNN: John Batiste sacrificed career in military

  ... so that he could dissent against the policies of this war.

  This is an excerpt from Gen. John Batiste on AC360:

  AC: "General Batiste,...how did you see this (sense of Rumfeld's arrogance, not listening) on the ground in Iraq?"

  Batiste: "We had great debate within the Corp, mutinational force... and tremendous dialogue between commanders on the ground, and at some point you have to stopl and you decide either to execute the best plan that you ever heard or you get out.

  I personally chose to retire, on principle, so that you and I could have this discussion, right now."

  by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:34:22 PM PDT

  •  That is amazing

    BushCo is really hurting our military. I wonder if they care so long as they get what they want.

    by Gopher Bob on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:03:42 PM PDT

    •  Bush Co is really hurting us all and

      no they don't care.

      by Friend of the court on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:18:58 PM PDT

    •  Exactly!

      I'm still trying to identify the GOP pundit on MSM who demeaned Batiste's military service in Iraq last week, when he charged that Batiste left the Army, <paraphrase>"because of his 'frustration' at being unable to effectively train Iraqi security forces."

      ie "blaming the military"

      by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:22:48 PM PDT

•  I have a new found respect for our military

  that is the only good thing that I can say has come out of this god forsaken war.  Growing up during Vietnam certianly helped form my views of the military, and it was not because of the soliders, it was the talking head military on the TV every night.  Now, those that I distrusted the most in my youth are supporting my beliefs, wow, what do you do? Personally, I support them because in one of those strange twists of fate, we are on the same page, and we want the same thing, for those young men and women to come home and get out from under the thumb of this worthless chickhawk administration.
  You know, I wish the media would cover this war like   Vietnam, Bushco would be so gone if we had the nightly film and body counts we did during Vietnam.

  by dansk47 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 10:45:40 PM PDT

  •  Letting Go

    I too lived through Vietnam, in fact, I served at Kent State University. Although many of my closest friends were Vietnam Vets who came home to march beside me in protest, being shot at by your government, your army, leaves a bitter distrust of all things military.

    When a friend of mine, a woman who was very close to Senator Wellstone, mentioned General Clark as a possible candidate, I didn't know what to think. LIttle did I know, I was about to rethink a few pet ideas.

    The last time I saw Wes Clark, he told the story of getting shot in Vietnam, and carrying the anger with him. Until one February 19th while looking in the mirror shaving, he thought about the person who fired the gun that caused him so much pain. He said that on that ninth anniversery, he decided to set it aside.

    Later that day thinking about it, I wanted to tell him my story. I carried my anger far too long, but I had to set it aside to vote for a general.

    It's been a rotten five years, but some good things have found their way.

    by Donna Z on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:20:08 PM PDT

    •  There has been good that has come from this

      as Kitchen Table Activist once commented in a diary of mine

      I slumbered soundly under a blanket of apathy for about 20 years, but I'm wide awake now."

      I love the quote, I believe it is classic, it speaks to me completely, and I belive it speaks to many others.

      But know what motherfuckers, I am awake now, and I will not sleep.

      by dansk47 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:43:04 PM PDT

•  Quotes from Generals:

  Selected quotes from the retired US Generals who called for Rumsfeld resignation;
  ------------------------------------------------
  Wesley Clark

  " I think that it's more than an appropriate time. This country needed a better policy from the 2001 period on. We should have stayed in Afghanistan and finished it. Rumsfeld and Vice President Cheney wanted us to go to Iraq. It had no connection to the war on terror. They pressed for this, they pressed for open warfare before the diplomacy was finished. It was a tragic mistake. It's a strategic blunder. It was wrong and the American people just didn't understand it or they wouldn't have reelected George Bush. They did...reelect him. Now these officers are saying 'at least give us somebody in the military chain of command who will listen.' That's why Secretary Rumsfeld has lost their confidence. He's made bad policy choices. It's time for new leadership."

  ------------------------------------------------

  From MsNBC;

  John Batiste

  The retired major general, who led a division in Iraq, told CNN, "We need leadership up there that respects the military as they expect the military to respect them. And that leadership needs to understand teamwork."

  Anthony Zinni

  The retired Marine general wrote an op-ed calling the Secretary of Defense “incompetent strategically, operationally, and tactically.”

  Paul Eaton

  The retired major general, who oversaw the training of Iraqi troops until 2004, wrote in The New York Times that "Rumsfeld has put the Pentagon at the mercy of his ego, his Cold Warrior's view of the world and his unrealistic confidence in technology to replace manpower."

  Charles Swannack Jr.

  The former commander of the Army's 82nd Airborne Division in Iraq told the New York Times, "I do not believe Secretary Rumsfeld is the right person to fight that war based on his absolute failures in managing the war against Saddam in Iraq."

  Gregory Newbold

  The former Marine general, writing in Time magazine, declared, “I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat--Al Qaeda.”

  
  John M. Riggs

  In an interview with National Public Radio, retired Gen. Riggs alleged an atmosphere of ''arrogance" among top civilian leaders at the Pentagon. Rumsfeld ''should step aside and let someone step in who can be more realistic," he said.

  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

  ----------------------------------------------------

  by Knightrider on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:15:05 PM PDT

  •  The best quote from Newbold

    it ring too damned true

    My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions--or bury the results.

    by dansk47 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:36:05 PM PDT

•  Thanks, KnightRider. Clark is a statesman, ...

  ...not a politician.  You could hear the passion and sincerity in Clark's voice.

  Stan Davis
  Lakewood, Co

  by Stan81747 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:26:27 PM PDT

  •  Yes, Clark is an excellent all around leader. n/t

    by HoundDog on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 04:41:06 AM PDT

•  I know I'm a freak for not knowing...

  But what's a podcast???

  -earthy

  by earthy crunchy1 on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:30:50 PM PDT

  •  It has to do with the format

    You can download a "Podcast" to your iTunes player on your computer, then hook it up to your iPod.

    I myself have neither iTunes nor iPod.  But it's a good message for our mission in iRaq.

    My blog. Come visit.

    by hekebolos on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:40:31 PM PDT

  •  Just click on the link provided in the diary

    I'm on a Mac with iTunes, so for me it comes in automatically. However, if you follow the link there are instructions to tell you what to do no matter the machine. podcasts are MP3s that you can listen to. This is really an inspiring piece the General has left us. I encourage to take the plunge.

    Oh, I read another post you made earlier in the thread about the past, and thought you might enjoy this quote:

    "to view the past as prologue not a prison" Wes Clark

    Twenty Year Vision

    by Donna Z on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:49:09 PM PDT

•  read this transcript

  from the General's appearance on Fox News.

  Clark at his best.  It amazes me about these Fox News hosts--their strategy for defending Rumsfeld isn't that Rumsfeld has failed, but rather that:

  1. You're not allowed to criticize him in the first place, because we're at war; and

  2. the president is ultimately responsible, so it's not Rumsfeld's fault.

  But they'll never admit there's a problem with Rumsfeld's leadership.

  My blog. Come visit.

  by hekebolos on Mon Apr 17, 2006 at 11:46:36 PM PDT

•  gore-clark '08

  clark-obama '16
  obama-markos '24

  by Turkana on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:35:18 AM PDT

•  Rumsfeld's importance was 3rd in line in the Iraq

  Middle East strategy. His purpose was to delay and allow for base construction to get the main track. When Iraq became bogged down then their plan became slowed. Entry into Iran didn't spread and only the Right and the Press and Media told us that Democracy had changed the others peoples of neighboring nations.

  Second became the spending and enrichment of bank accounts of friends and corporations. The political plan has been to bankrupt the nation and treasury.

  The simplistic thinking al went south. There was a book that Bushco had read about the democracizing of the Middle East. Read easy and good I suppose but the one thing never included is the pain and knowledge of the deaths of innocent people.

  We went for three reasons.

  O--il
  I--srael
  L--ogistics

  Israel's ZIONIST have infiltrated your ignorant Presidents brain.

  Good luck and enjoy your slaughter because remember the George Will's, Silly Kristol's and Hillary Clinton's remind us that "we" are over their.

  I wonder how much closer those 4 young Marines that were killed last Saturday have gotten to their homes? They aren't the "we"s but rather the those that were/are over their.

  Texas Aggieland is running hogwild loose in D.C. and those are very closed minded people. Phil Graham coming back in the picture? I don't think so as who can forget his wife's narrow escape of the Enron rape of innocents.

  Arlen Specter will dance "we" around this again.

  Their employees are stooges and know nothing of reality.Plus allow for them to shop and dress for their status appearances.

  There might be one way that democracy could be returned to America or least a hearing held and that'd be if there were a FAN's Strike from going to Major League Baseball. Not likely right?

  by jackhalfpenny on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:51:03 AM PDT

•  It was very touching, really

  I was surprised how moved I was listening to the descriptions of relationships among the military players who are unveiling the incompetence of the civilian leadership. This whole thing can only be painful for those involved, though not as painful as the war policy itself has been.

  by mexdem on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 09:04:23 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for expressing that

    It is a quality to this podcast that I strongly sensed but had not put into words yet for myself.  There really is an effort going on here to do what is right by America, at whatever personal cost, and indeed there are personal costs for these military leaders who now are being sniped at in the media nation wide, and even more painful I am sure, being sniped at by others in the military.  

    Trust has been broken by this administration and the reprecussions in all directions are painful.

    by Tom Rinaldo on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 10:48:37 AM PDT