Daily Kos

Gay Community attacks Howard Dean

Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:08:41 PM PDT

In the last few weeks  Democratic Party Chair, Howard Dean, has been under attack from representatives of the gay community.  These attacks have made front page news from conservative outlets such as Drudge Report and Fox News.
Democratic consultant Paul Yandura told Gay City News:

"There has been no directive or request from either Chairman Dean or the DNC to the state parties asking them to get off their asses and oppose these anti-gay marriage referenda in the states. When I met with Dean and senior staff last year and told them the party needed a strategy on this issue to defeat the Republicans, they all agreed--but up until now they've done nothing except talk."

Yandura [again]:

"Look, this isn't really about gay marriage--it's about the Republican-Karl Rove strategy to win elections, and I'm trying to help the party win, not hurt it," he said. "But I won't allow gays or immigrants to be used as human shields to blame defeat at the polls on.

[Yandaras]

"If the party won't take very concrete steps and actions to fight these anti-gay marriage referendums on the ground--referenda designed to help Republicans win--then we may have to start withholding our financial contributions to the Democratic Party... I hope it doesn't get to that point." .

Gay City News Reports:

Some gay Democrats are already saying that, with just six months to go until November and still no Democratic strategy to fight the gay marriage-ban referendums coupled with the punitive firing of Hitchcock, that point has already been reached.

Firstly,  Yandura's suggestion of "opposing anti-gay marriage referenda in the states" seems to be in direct conflict with the national strategy of advocationg for the freedom of individual states to develop their own policies concerning "the family" (see statement below by Gay Democrats).  

Gay Democrats issued this statement recently:

"Our founders created a federal system that allows individual states the freedom to develop policy for their own families as they see fit," said Jo Wyrick, Interim Executive Director, National Stonewall Democrats. "Democrats do not believe that the federal government should forcefully dictate family policy for individual states, as championed by congressional Republicans and the Bush Administration.

But secondly,  is Yandura and Gay community representatives forcing the Democratic party to make an issue of "anti-gay marriage referendums" for November, at all costs?

Yandura is also suggesting that the gay community should pull it support for the democratic party.  Isn't the first logical move for protecting the Civil Rights of individual homosexuals to neutralize the threat of a constitutional ban on gay marriage?

And isn't the best and most direct route to ensure the protection of the individual Rights for homosexuals an overwhelmingly Democratic victory in November?

The truth is that Liberal Democrats would protect the Civil Rights of homosexuals with or without the contributions of the homosexual community.  

Of course amending the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority each in the House and Senate and ratification by three-fourths, or 38, of the 50 states. That seems highly unlikely even now.  However, if the right hot buttons are pushed anything can happen in the next few months.  With a very large lead for Democrats the right strategy is to stay away from divisive issues and appeal to a common ground.

Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean in an appearance on TV evangelist Pat Robertson's 700 Club this week wiped out what is widely considered the greatest achievement of gays Democrats - a recognition of same-sex relationships in the party platform.

"The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman," Dean told Robertson.

"That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is we believe in inclusion. That everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect and equal rights under the law are important. I'm not saying we'll agree with everything between the more conservative evangelicals and Democrats but I think there's more common ground and we're willing to work with the evangelical community."

"one of the misconceptions about the Democratic Party is that we're godless and that we don't have any values."

"The truth is, we have an enormous amount in common with the Christian community, and particularly with the evangelical Christian community. And one of the biggest things that Democrats worry about is the materialism of our country, what's on television that our kids are seeing, and the lack of spirituality.

Fox News:

Dean sought to establish common ground with religious conservatives in the interview on Pat Robertson's network, a tall order considering their opposition to the Democratic Party's positions on abortion rights, gay rights and some other social issues.

With Republicans embracing the traditional definition of marriage in 2004, Democrats sought to appeal to such traditionalists without giving up their support for gay rights.

This is what the document  says:

"We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a 'Federal Marriage Amendment.' Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart."

So it is again confirmed that the Democratic platform was to advocate for the independence of the states on the issue of family policy making, but remember Yandura wants democrats to fight anti-gay marriage referendas in the states!  

365 Gay news reported on July 30, 2004:

While many of the 255 GLBT delegates to the Democratic National Convention held here July 26-29 expressed disappointment over presidential candidate John Kerry's opposition to same-sex marriage and his support for amending Massachusetts' constitution to ban it, they were nonetheless united in their conviction that four more years of George W. Bush will be a disaster for GLBT people.

And they said that Kerry has taken the right position on nearly every other issue of concern to the GLBT community. He supports enactment of same-sex civil-union laws that grant the rights of marriage, and opposes amending the U.S. Constitution to ban same-sex marriage

So according to 365 Gay News,  the winner of the Democratic National Convention, John Kerry did in fact oppose same sex marriages.

Here is The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force:

"Disturbingly, this is not the first time he [i.e. DEAN] has misrepresented this important and affirming plank, and he has been asked before to correct the record and to cease making these misleading statements," said NGLTF Executive Director Matt Foreman.

"Governor Dean's record on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues since becoming DNC chair has been sorely and sadly lacking. The Democratic Party chair should stand by and fight for the party's own platform and values. In light of Governor Dean's pandering and insulting interview today with the Christian Broadcasting Network, we have decided to return the DNC's recent $5,000 contribution to us. We do so with great sadness, knowing that the Democratic Party has long been a champion of our rights."

Yet Dean is still [by far] the champ when it comes to protecting the Civil Rights of homosexuals.  

The issue of Gay Marriage is indeed an issue of Rights, not Morals (or values).  To suggest that same sex marriages are illegal, is to suggest that the law precludes individuals from willfuly entering into a social contract with one another [exclusively] on the basis of a Natural Right (i.e. gender, race, etc..).  

At the state level marriage is ultimately a contract.  Excluding an individual from entering into a contract because of a Naturally defined category (i.e. gender, race) is clearly an infringement of Civil Rights.

The problem for the homosexual community seems to be that protecting Civil Rights isn't good enough.

Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solmonese added:

"Gov. Dean's comments weren't a mere slip of the tongue but a glaring reminder of the governor's lack of leadership on this issue."

"As we face a Senate vote in June that threatens to put discrimination in our Constitution," Solmonese said, referring the a new proposed amendment to prevent same-sex marriage, "Gov. Dean should not only have known better but he should have used the opportunity to speak out about the lack of values involved in the current constitutional debate."

What?  What does "values" have to do with the U.S. constitution which is based on Law (i.e. the sphere of Right)?  It seems that Joe Solmonese would like Democrats to get into a moral debate about the "goodness" of homosexuality.  Further, he thinks that Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean should advocate the "values" of Homosexuality.

Amid criticism from a gay rights group, Democratic chairman Howard Dean now says he misstated his party's platform in an interview with the Christian Broadcasting Network.

"I misstated the Democratic Party's platform, which does not say marriage should be limited to a man and a woman," and reasserted the party's commitment to equal protection for all.

"We need for Governor Dean to demonstrate real leadership on our issues," executive director Matt Foreman said in an interview, "not to equivocate depending on the audience."

It is not the job of the Democratic party to advocate homosexuality, but to protect Civil Rights.  And Howard Dean has provided consistant leadership in his efforts to protect the Civil Rights of Homosexuals.

Tags: Howard Dean, Gay Marriage (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 133 comments

  •  and with good reason (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    guyute16, mr crabby

    He has made this same mistake so many times about the party platform.  We don't want anyone to advocate homosxuality but we do expect our Party Chairperson to know the party platform and not sell us out for the conservative bible thumpers votes.  He can remember the platform when he ask us for money and votes so why couldn't he do it on CBNN?

    •  Um, the Platform? (2+ / 0-)

      Can you clarify where in the platform it advocates that the party should or should not take a position on state-level marriage amendments?  I know it has some generic, milquetoast language about equal rights, but the Yandura quotes are about the party taking a position on voter initiatives to amend state constitutions, and I don't recall the platform taking a position on those.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:47:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  platform be damned (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ejbr

        It is the right thing to do.  The party is suppose to be the Party of the People and fight for Equality for All.

        •  Then Why Mention The Platform? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DemocraticLuntz

          I only asked because you accused Dean of not knowing the platform, and I couldn't think of what the platform had to say about state-level marriage amendments.

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:55:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Dean mixed up Kerry's 2004 and DNC's 2004 plats (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            gmb, ActivistGuy

            That's all he did.

            But some folks out there -- most notably the Aravosis-Hitchcock faction (Dean replaced Don Hitchcock, Aravosis' buddy, with Brian Bond and DNC's gay outreach director) -- are trying their best to make it into an international incident.

            John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

            by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:59:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm getting pretty fucking (11+ / 0-)

              annoyed with people who proclaim themselves leaders of the gay community.  No one asked me to vote for them as the voice of the community and I'm gay.  Many are self appointed leaders with little or no base.  And John Aravosis really fucked things up.  His crusade against Dean because his buddy was fired has created a mountain out of a mole hill.  I can't claim to be a gay leader, but I've done my part over the years and had to deal with thinly veiled homophobia on more occasions than I can count.  That said, I support Howard Dean and I am really upset with this development.  The democrats have often done the wink-wink bit where they take gay money and tell us that the time isn't right, but we are behind you...just don't tell anyone.  I don't see that with Dean at all.  Kerry's position made me very  unhappy, but I voted for him while pinching my nose.  If Dean were to announce that he was running for president in 2008, I would unequivocally throw my support, time and money behind this campaign.  And to the diarist, your headline is misleading and offensive: some gay men and women may be attacking Dean, but many of us support him.  Unless you can point to someone other than Paul Yandura, who I never heard of before this brouhaha, do not say that the gay community attacks Dean.  That is simply bullshit.

              •  I agree. (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                guyute16, gmb, SoCalLiberal

                That is simply bullshit.

                Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:41:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Dude.... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                refinish69
                He went on the 700 club and misrepresented the party platform (some with stars in their eyes would say understandably) to make gays seem second class.

                I didn't get that from anybody but my own eyes watching it on Friday.

                I'm not party of any "gay leadership" and I was a rabid Dean supporter (still have my "Tea is in the Harbor sweatshirt), but this was just wrong.  Period.

                Notice too the subtle homophobic digs.  The message of this diarist is clear.  Sit down and shut up gays, we're gonna do a hatchet job on you to win elections (albeit in a somewhat nicer way than than Republicans).

                I call bullshit on all this.

                •  The diarist is wrong. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Rob Mac K, SoCalLiberal

                  But I am not pissed that Dean went on the 700 Club.  He's trying to get the message out to people who vote against their own interests.  This attack on Dean as anti-gay is getting on my last nerve.  Dean is better on gay rights than a lot of democrats and I am wondering what is behind this attack by some who claim to be leaders.  I've had enough.  The wink-wink bullshit wears me down, but I don't see it from Dean.  Enough.

                  •  You sound just like me... (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    refinish69
                    ..before I saw Dean's pathetic performance Friday.  The fact that he seemed uncomfortable doing it and probably doesn't believe in it doesn't change the fact that he did it and it was wrong.

                    But oh look how the homophobic wing of the Democratic party took the arms the minute we started complaining how wrong it was.

                    It speaks volumes.

  •  Really? Dean '[protects]' my rights? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    guyute16, refinish69

    So, where was Howard Dean in Cincinnati's 2004 election? Howard Dean and the DNC had no involvement to help restore civil rights to Cincinnati's LGBT community. We did it on our own. Your indifferent attitude would be better utilized with another political party. Have you heard of the GOP?

    Let's see what happens if your son/daughter is driven to commit suicide, is constantly harassed, intimidated, and threatened, is afraid to go to school, or is denied the right to housing or employment because of his/her sexuality. Let's see where your indifference will lie.

    •  amen!!!! (0+ / 0-)

      They didn't help in any state and are to gutless to stand up for equality.

      •  So when did Dean become DNC chair? (7+ / 0-)

        2005.

        AFTER the 2004 race, if you remember.  (And as the diarist notes, Kerry's 2004 platform did indeed state that marriage is between a man and woman.   All Dean did was (understandably) confuse the DNC's 2004 platform with Kerry's 2004 platform.)

        The thing is that, if you read the whole freaking transcript instead of just the teeny-weeny parts shown to you by the anti-Deaners, you'd realize that while Dean noted that the DNC's 2004 platform (actually Kerry's, as noted above) stated that marriage was between a man and a woman, Dean states that the Democrats NOW believe that we are all equal before the law.

        John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

        by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:36:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've never been 'Anti-Dean' (0+ / 0-)

          But, like a Republican, you are quick to jump to generalizations. Howard Dean's later election to DNC Chair should have been all the more reason to participate and advocate for Cincinnati Issue 3. I knew the differences between the national party platform and the Kerry/Edwards campaign position. Furthermore, Howard Dean knew exactly what he was saying on "The 700 Club." The man is not an idiot and speaks in an almost too-straightforward manner. Look at the clip again, he knew what he was saying.

    •  Absolutely, Dean has fought for your Rights (3+ / 0-)

      An election year is not the time to cause inner party rifts. All for one and one for all.  

      •  No, Dean lied on THE 700 CLUB! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        refinish69

        Dean made himself look as foolish and hypocritical as the show's "host", Pat Robertson.

        •  Did you actually READ the full quote? (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rob Mac K, Xeno of Elia, gmb

          Want me to quote it back to you?  (Not that it will do any good with you.)

          Here goes -- and note the bolded portions in particular:

          “Well, let's discuss abortion first,” Dean said. “I think what we have in common with the evangelical community is that we ought to have a lot fewer abortions than we do. The abortions have actually gone up in the last few years. [PW notes:  Precisely BECAUSE of Bush's gutting real family planning for abstinence-based bull, and that's what Dean's trying to communicate here.] We should have far fewer abortions...we ought to make sure that there's not just abstinence, but family planning used to get rid of abortion, and that is something that we share. Now the difference is that we don't think making criminals out of doctors and women is a good idea.”

          He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is that we believe in inclusion, that everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect, and that equal rights under the law are important.”

          “I'm not saying we're going to agree with everything, between the more conservative evangelicals and the Democrats, but there's a lot more common ground than most people realize, and we're willing to work with the evangelical community,” Dean said.

          Dean didn't lie -- as the diarist noted, he just (understandably) confused Kerry's 2004 platform (which had an anti-gay-marriage plank) with the DNC's 2004 platform.  BUT, he went on to immediately say that while the DNC's 2004 platform was that marriage was one-man/one-woman, the Democratic Party's CURRENT (as in "formulated AFTER Dean took over as DNC chair") platform is that we are all equal under the law.

          (By the way:  For the illiterate and excitable among us, Dean didn't become DNC Chair until 2005, and he had no part in either Kerry's or the DNC's platform construction.  But that won't stop the determined frothers.)

          John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

          by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:50:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  where the hell do you get off (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Raddark, guyute16

            calling me illeterate?  You can kiss Dean's ass as he sells out the party to the 700 club but I sure as hell want.

            •  Again -- did you actually READ the full quote? (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Xeno of Elia, gmb, DemocraticLuntz

              Yes or no?

              Want me to quote it back to you?  (Not that it will do any good with you -- as you have just shown by your refusal to answer the question.)

              Here goes -- and note the bolded portions in particular:

              “Well, let's discuss abortion first,” Dean said. “I think what we have in common with the evangelical community is that we ought to have a lot fewer abortions than we do. The abortions have actually gone up in the last few years. [PW notes:  Precisely BECAUSE of Bush's gutting real family planning for abstinence-based bull, and that's what Dean's trying to communicate here.] We should have far fewer abortions...we ought to make sure that there's not just abstinence, but family planning used to get rid of abortion, and that is something that we share. Now the difference is that we don't think making criminals out of doctors and women is a good idea.”

              He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is that we believe in inclusion, that everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect, and that equal rights under the law are important.”

              “I'm not saying we're going to agree with everything, between the more conservative evangelicals and the Democrats, but there's a lot more common ground than most people realize, and we're willing to work with the evangelical community,” Dean said.

              Dean didn't lie -- as the diarist noted, he just (understandably) confused Kerry's 2004 platform (which had an anti-gay-marriage plank) with the DNC's 2004 platform.  BUT, he went on to immediately say that while the DNC's 2004 platform was that marriage was one-man/one-woman, the Democratic Party's CURRENT (as in "formulated AFTER Dean took over as DNC chair") platform is that we are all equal under the law.

              (By the way:  For the illiterate and excitable among us, Dean didn't become DNC Chair until 2005, and he had no part in either Kerry's or the DNC's platform construction.  But that won't stop the determined frothers.)

              John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

              by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:01:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  She did not call you illiterate (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              gmb
              Read it again if you must. You are making way too many assumptions when you assert that Dean is selling you or the gay community out. I think it's naive not to recognize that Dean is trying to make equal rights for gays more of a reality rather than less. You can disagree on tactics, that's fine. You can also criticize him for suggesting that equal rights can be achieved short of gay marriage (something on which I haven't been able to make up my mind, but if you think you see the one and only path on this, fine). But I think it reflects poor judgment of the man's character to accuse him of selling the gay community out from that statement, given his past.

              "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

              by jd in nyc on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:11:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The 700 Club tactic? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                refinish69
                This is furthering gay rights?  Going on the 700 Club and stating "we believe marriage is between a man and woman".

                Oh -  you mean the stab the gays in the back while being nice to their face tactic.

                Great tactic....forgive us if we don't jump on board with it though.

                •  let me explain it to you (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  DHinMI, MissLaura

                  Here is the tactic as I understand it:

                  A and B disagree strongly about X. X is an emotional topic, with very strongly held views on both sides. Moreover, both sides think that the other side is fundamentally mistaken and morally deficient for their position on X.

                  So, what to do if you are A (a pro gay rights Democrat) and want B (an anti-gay rights fundamentalist) to come closer to your position on X (equal rights for homosexuals or gay marriage in particular)?

                  Here is one strategy for A that is often the best option:
                  Begin by emphasizing what B has in common with A. Try to lessen B's feeling of distance, and that A is perverse and alien. Convey to B that A is in fact very similar about a lot of things B cares about.

                  In particular, convey that A and B agree on many of the very same basic principles. Moreover, try to show that where A disagrees with B, A does so on the basis of the same principles they share. In this case, examples might be Christian principles of brotherly love, charity to all, kindness to the downtrodden, and so on.

                  If you're good, you'll get B to see why A chooses the course that he does in a way that makes it much more sympathetic to B. It's important that you don't engage this discussion with an attitude of "You're a horrible deluded person" because that immediately retriggers defensiveness and the alienation that B feels towards A. If this is done right under the right circumstances, in the short term you can lessen B's hostility to A and A's position, and in the long term you can actually get B to change his mind.

                  Now, do I think this is easy? No. Do I think Dean did a good job of it in his interview? Not really. Do I think Dean's intent was to signal that he was giving up on gay rights? Not in the least.

                  "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

                  by jd in nyc on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:44:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Great detached analysis (0+ / 0-)

                    Just one hitch though, last weekend at the Philly  Equality forum this crowd that Dean's trying to appeal to held up signs telling me I'm going to hell, that "God hates fags" and that they could cure my "mental illness".

                    Somehow I don't think a bumbling 700 club performance is going to bring em around.....

                    But hey he did a great job of pissing us off.  But we don't count....that's been firmly established right?

                    •  No. It Hasn't Been Firmly Established (0+ / 0-)

                      Since you asked, I answered.

                      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                      by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:59:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Read some of the diary entries (0+ / 0-)

                        There clearly is no down side to angering the gay community in many of these people's eyes.

                        I never understood why a gay person would vote Republican.  Now I see the cold logic - at least we'll get the tax breaks.  I mean neither party is going to stand up for us in the face of this hatred.

                        Indeed, many who believe we're "advocating homosexuality" or want the Democrats to "wear pink triangles" seem to be firmly in the fuck the gays camp.

                        I'm so proud right now of having given so much cash to Dean in 2003

                        •  You'll See What You Decide You Want to See (0+ / 0-)

                          I don't see hatred on this thread, and I only see a few examples of ignorance.  You seem to be mistaking a failure to share your anger with hatred of gays, which is a losing approach to cultivating and maintaining allies, in politics and in life.

                          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                          by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:11:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Uh...right (0+ / 0-)

                            Advocating homosexuality and forcing the Dems to wear pink triangles isn't somehow hateful towards gays.

                            How in the hell do you even advocate homosexuality?  By demanding that you be left alone to live your life?

                            Pink triangles?

                            I think you're willfully NOT seeing what is plain here.

                            •  Give Me a Link (0+ / 0-)

                              Show me exactly where someone on this thread advocated forcing Dems to wear pink triangles.  You're either delusional or dishonest, because it didn't happen.  But if you're convinced it did, show me the comment.

                              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                              by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:22:50 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Oh Christ, just read...... (0+ / 0-)

                                "Frankly I think it is dumb to "punish" the Democrats for not wearing pink triangles and pushing gay marriage down the throats of Americans who are hostile to the concept."

                                Written by jiacinto at 7:35 PST, about 2/3 the way down the page (I know sweetie, its HARD to read that much).

                                So basically by expressing anger that Dean would

                                1.  Misrepresent the party position in such a way that appeals to fundies on
                                2.  The 700 Club

                                The gay community is "punishing" Democrats for not "wearing pink triangles" and "pushing down the throat" gay marriage.

                                Yes, this little closet case clearly has an S&M thing going on in his head

                                •  Says Complete Opposite of What You Said (0+ / 0-)

                                  So, you dont have an example.  

                                  Thanks for not admitting you were wrong.

                                  The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                                  by DHinMI on Mon May 15, 2006 at 05:25:23 AM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  Whatever... (0+ / 0-)

                                    If you willfullly want to ignore the dripping condescension in this comment, go right ahead.  I used his little pink triangles comment to highlight the homophobia running through this diary.  If you misread what I wrote, that's your issue.

                                    For those not blindly towing the party line in the vain hope that somehow we'll get a few 700 Club nut jobs to vote for us, its right there in plain view.

                          •  If you're not angry... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...then you're not paying attention.

                            It might come as a shock to you, but for the millions of gay people who are currently having their civil rights denied them, it's an important issue. So important, that when a leader of the party that is supposed to be the party of hope stands up and panders to an audience he will never persuade to vote for him or his party, it kinda makes some of us angry.

                            Perhaps if he were speaking at a gun rally and "accidentally" said that the Democratic platform in 2004 included advocacy for a "no child left without a gun" policy, perhaps you'd be angry too.

                            Perhaps if he were speaking at a pro-life rally and "accidentally" said that the Democratic platofrm in 2004 included advocacy for a "every child ever conceived must be born" policy, perhaps you'd be angry.

                            What's your issue? I'm sure the man could say something that would make you angry, if it directly affected your life.

                            Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                            by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:27:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Thanks for the Condescension (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              vcmvo2

                              It's a great persuasion tactic.  

                              Obviously you don't know anything about me.  Maybe you shouldn't presume to know so much about a person and just stick to what's written.  

                              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                              by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:36:47 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Great persuasion tactic? (0+ / 0-)

                                Do you think it's a great persuasion tactic to pander to the relgious right?

                                I'm almost to the point of just staying home on election day. Why should I vote for a Democrat OR a Republican if neither is going to represent me?

                                A few more comments like Dean's from high profile Democrats and there's really no point in me voting. If Democrats want my support, they'll have to do better than this. If they want me to fight for them, then they better be fighting for me.

                                Dean, and some of the posters on this board, aren't doing much to persuade gay Americans to vote democratic, they're just making it easier to say "I don't give a shit, fuck'em all, let the country go to shit, let the Republicans maintain control". Perhaps that's what it'll take for any real change to happen in this country.

                                So go ahead...keep supporting this idea that the religious right is worthy of pandering to...you'll only end up turning people away from the Democratic party and telling you all, Democrats and Rpeublicans, to go to hell.

                                Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                                by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:45:02 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                    •  "detached" analysis (0+ / 0-)

                      I presented it in this abstract way to make a general point. This kind of tactic can work for all kinds of topics. I have found it to be an excellent one to use in one-on-one situations. So, really, this kind of approach works best in a very personal setting, not a detached one.

                      Here is the rub, though: I think this approach is much harder to pull off in a public setting than in a personal setting. In a public setting, there are always going to be the super-committed people whose careers, credibility and influence are dependent on the position at issue. Those people will step in to undermine attempts to break down the hostility, basically creating peer pressure.

                      The only way I've seen to overcome it is sheer charisma. I'm not sure Dean has the kind (quantity?) of charisma needed to pull off this tactic in a public forum. Perhaps he can make a little progress, and others can contribute their progress, and together we will get federal partnership rights for gays equal to those for straights between 2009 and 20013.

                      "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

                      by jd in nyc on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:21:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  The Kerry Platform Would Explain the Goof (5+ / 0-)

          Dean worked so much to try to hoist Kerry's sorry ass into office all of 2004, it's believable he got Kerry's sorry platform imbedded in his brain.

          I did a full transcript of the 700 club interview.

          I admit, it may be hair-raising in places to those who are "Christian"-o-phobic-- but after reading the 4 Gospels myself, it's pretty clear that the rabidly gay-hating "Christians" aren't following a lot of Christ's teachings anyway.

          When Dick Cheney smiles, beware...

          by Dean Nut on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:00:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the transcript, DN (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            gmb

            That helps a lot, and it provides context which the screamers are desperately trying to ignore.

            John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

            by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:02:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you're saying he DIDN'T go on the 700 club? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Smallbottle
              The FUCKING 700 CLUB.  Home of the craziest of the fundie crazies.  He didn't mention the Democratic Party support "marriage between a man and woman" in this venue?

              Take me to the place where that doesn't matter.  Oh yeah, you're a straight person who has no fucking clue what its like to constantly be relegated to second class status in this country.

              Sell it to somebody else...nobody is buying it.

              •  Uhhh (0+ / 0-)

                Sadly, the 700 Club is usually one of the more moderate and sane of the fundagelical teevee shows. Which is truly depressing. Check out Rev Bob Enyart, one of the leading lights of that movement. His show used to feature 'how to spot a homo obituary'. He would find one, get the surviving lover's phone number, give it out on the air while urging viewers to call and taunt the lover. Really just ordinary every day conservative Christianity on display.

                So, sad as it is, Dean did pick the best of a very bad lot to make his pitch. Watching conservative Christian media is like riding a glass bottom boat thru a sewer.

      •  Then quit sell us out (0+ / 0-)

        so we sit back and get treated as second class citizens again and accept it?  Hell no!!!!

        •  Oh no, haven't you heard? (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Smallbottle, Raddark, refinish69
          You're just angry because the Dems won't "advocate homosexuality".  The jackass diarist heard that once at a urinal drunk in some redneck bar so its gotta be true - we're trying to turn everybody gay gay gay.

          Jesus its 2006, this is a liberal blog and you STILL have to put up with this kind of thoughtless hateful bullshit.

          This guy's just pissed because we dare speak up when somebody shits on is.  He probably fondly remembers the Reagan years when the powers that be gloated silently while thousands of us died of AIDS.

          Fuck you buddy, and your paranoid conspiracy theories.  This is my fucking life and its way more important than Dean's ego, the Democratic Party and you're barely repressed homophobia.

        •  No, you stand up (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rob Mac K

          make the elections a fight about gay rights, which is what the Republicans are trying to do anyway, and play right into BushInc's hands.

          I have read posts of how people will leave the Dems and vote Green or Libertarian because they don't get the recognition that they feel they deserve.

          Twenty years ago, gay bashing wasn't even investigated.  It was a non-issue.  The Green Party didn't fight for your rights.  The Libertarian Party didn't fight for your rights, the Democratic Party is the one that fought for you.  Now you feel that things aren't going fast enough.  If you want to speed things up, out the Republicans who are so two-faced.  Don't hide behind the "code".

          So go to the Greens or Libertarians, get another Bush elected, and puff out your chest and say "I did this" as they haul you off to some camp, or get the Democrats back in power where they CAN make changes.  We can't do anything sitting on the back bench.

          Don't confuse this confusion with disorganization, because we're not that organized yet. -5.13/-3.38

          by Grannus on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:46:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have not left the party (0+ / 0-)

            and will not but I also will not accept a party chairperson who sells us out either.  

            •  He is not just the chairman (0+ / 0-)

              of the Gay wing of the party.  I have some problems with some of his stances too, but if you are looking for the "perfect person", you will be looking forever.

              Don't confuse this confusion with disorganization, because we're not that organized yet. -5.13/-3.38

              by Grannus on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:56:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  How about somebody who won't pander? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                refinish69
                How about somebody willing to just state the plain and obvious truth:

                Homosexuals pose no threat to you.  Homosexuals just want to live their lives, which have as much worth as any other human beings?

                I guess that would take real leadership, which has been bereft from this party for the past 6 years.

                I guess its just easy to jump on the demonize gays train, I mean its worked so well for Republicans.

                And shame on us for speaking up about it right?

                •  non sequitor (0+ / 0-)

                  Making straw men to knock down doesn't do anything.  I agree with you, but not that people are jumping on any "demonize gays train".

                  Speak up? Damn right.  You should always speak up about things which concern you.  Actively undermining the only party which has championed your causes is not really productive though.

                  Don't confuse this confusion with disorganization, because we're not that organized yet. -5.13/-3.38

                  by Grannus on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:08:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Just shut up" won't work either (0+ / 0-)

                    Sorry, but no.  This sort of pandering NEEDS to undermined.  In fact, I will spend every spare minute I have undermining it.  Republican or Democrat - if you're duplicitous sneaky ass goes on the 700 Club to wink and nod to the fundies about how gays don't really matter, you're gonna get called on it.

                    PERIOD

              •  How about someone who will.... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                refinish69, blueoasis

                ...defend the Constitution?

                You can believe homosexuality is immoral all you want. But you do so as a "Christian", not as a Democrat. As a Democrat, you should be standing up for my right to believe homosexuality is not immoral...as it is my right.

                You can be opposed to same-sex religious marriage all you want. But you do so as a "Christian", not as a Democrat. As a Democrat, you should be standing up for my right to legally marry...as it is my right.

                Until Democrats understand that, they will continue to be tempted into ignoring their principles, and they will continue to lose elections. The Republicans consistently and successfully blur the line between religion and politics on this and other issues, and the Democrats consistently and successfully fail to alter that framework. Until they do, these issues will continue to be winning issues for Republicans, because everyone knows that Republicans are such better "Christians"...or at least that people vote for Republicans because Republicans have consistently and succesfully sold themselves to the "Christian" community as being members of the "Good Christian" ™ club.

                Democrats will have a very diffcult time altering the perception that Republicans are better "Christians", but they can have an impact on altering the perception of what the debate is about. The debate is not about religion, religious morals, religious values, family values, or any other "Christian"-titled propaganda tool. This issue is SOLELY about civil rights...and until the Democrats make that consistently clear they will never be successful in debating this particular issue.

                Selling out the gay community is not the answer to resolving this issue or in changing the dynamics about it. Fighting for principles is what will change the dynamics. Fighting for principles is what will change the framework in which it is duscussed.

                Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:26:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  If you stupid fucks can't figure out... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Smallbottle, refinish69
            ..how to win elections without going on the FUCKING 700 CLUB and selling us out then I'll gladly watch you lose every single election from now until the whole country gets flushed down the fucking toilet.
          •  Democrats fight for us? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Smallbottle, blueoasis

            The Libertarian Party didn't fight for your rights, the Democratic Party is the one that fought for you.

            You mean like when Clinton signed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy and the Defense of Marriage Act?

            Democrats have done nothing but ENACT laws that discriminate against us when they've had power. They don't abide any principles when it comes to our rights, they use us as bargaining chips in this stupid game called politics.

            Enough is enough.

            If Democrats had any principles, they'd be consistently standing up for our rights, but as it is, they have no principles, they only have words. They're no different from anyone else in politics...sell-out whoever you need to in order to get what YOU want.

            Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

            by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:05:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There you go (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              refinish69
              "Advocating homosexuality" and "demanding that all Democrats wear a pink triangle".

              Clearly the Dems are the only game in town that will even pay perfunctory lip service to gay rights, so sit down and shut up.

              That about sum up this diary's pathetic point?

    •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

      So, where was Howard Dean in Cincinnati's 2004 election? Howard Dean and the DNC had no involvement to help restore civil rights to Cincinnati's LGBT community.

      Howard Dean was running for President in 2004, he was not the chair of the DNC until Feb 12, 2005.

      The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

      by deathsinger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:34:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Much of this is Aravosis' doing (11+ / 0-)

    Donald Hitchcock, one of Jon "AmericaBlog" Aravosis' best buds, was replaced as DNC gay outreach director by Brian Bond, a well-known fundraiser for gay causes.

    So Hitchcock and Aravosis, putting their personal situation above everything else (including getting the GOP out of the majority this year), have mobilized their networks to take down Dean at any cost.  Aravosis' blog is the online Ground Zero for these efforts, and anyone who dares question them gets banned from commenting.

    Then again, Aravosis is still a Republican at heart, so why should this surprise anyone?

    John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

    by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:25:15 PM PDT

    •  no it is dean's doing (0+ / 0-)

      he made the mistakes, he told the lies and now he is paying the cost.

    •  Yeah that makes sense (0+ / 0-)

      And the Hitchcock put a gun to Dean's wife's head and said "Now go on the 700 Club and send out subliminal signal to the fundies that we don't really support gays"

      Gimme a break

      •  Read this (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Terri, Xeno of Elia, gmb

        Here's what Dean actually said -- and note the bolded portions in particular:

        “Well, let's discuss abortion first,” Dean said. “I think what we have in common with the evangelical community is that we ought to have a lot fewer abortions than we do. The abortions have actually gone up in the last few years. [PW notes:  Precisely BECAUSE of Bush's gutting real family planning for abstinence-based bull, and that's what Dean's trying to communicate here.] We should have far fewer abortions...we ought to make sure that there's not just abstinence, but family planning used to get rid of abortion, and that is something that we share. Now the difference is that we don't think making criminals out of doctors and women is a good idea.”

        He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is that we believe in inclusion, that everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect, and that equal rights under the law are important.”

        “I'm not saying we're going to agree with everything, between the more conservative evangelicals and the Democrats, but there's a lot more common ground than most people realize, and we're willing to work with the evangelical community,” Dean said.

        Dean didn't lie -- as the diarist noted, he just (understandably) confused Kerry's 2004 platform (which had an anti-gay-marriage plank) with the DNC's 2004 platform.  BUT, he went on to immediately say that while the DNC's 2004 platform was that marriage was one-man/one-woman, the Democratic Party's CURRENT (as in "formulated AFTER Dean took over as DNC chair") platform is that we are all equal under the law.

        (By the way:  For the illiterate and excitable among us, Dean didn't become DNC Chair until 2005, and he had no part in either Kerry's or the DNC's platform construction.  But that won't stop the determined frothers.)

        John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

        by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:52:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah that's believable... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          refinish69
          Dean, who clearly is a stranger to being on TV, suddenly ACCIDENTALLY confused the one party platform item that would appeal to the fundie hatred of gays.

          On the 700 club.  Then he (kinda) softened the blow by saying something to the effect of "well they're still entitled to rights"

          You know what, I can get that off Bush.  Or Cheney.  I guess from the Dems I just expected a little more.

          My bad.

        •  Are you interviewing for a job as a stenographer? (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Raddark, guyute16, refinish69

          You keep retyping the same quotes, over and over, without actually reading them.

          Dean went on the 700 Club specifically to reach out to fundies--the largest, most organized and most dangerous group of nutjobs in the country. He misquoted the Democratic platform specifically to illustrate what the party had in common with these nutjobs--opposition to gay marriage.

          Those are the simple facts.

          So if you think anybody's buying the bullshit spin you're selling, you're seriously deluded.

  •  Advocate homosexuality? (5+ / 0-)

    What kind of stupid bullshit is this?  You're honestly gonna sit there and bloviate forever and then arrive at the erroneous conclusion that people who have a problem this want to have homosexuality ADVOCATED?

    I see a bright future for you over at Little Green Footballs friend.  

    What utter complete bullshit.

    I'm going to break this down for you in the simplest terms possible as you've obviously gone to great lengths to obfuscate the issue.

    Dean going on the 700 Club to tout how Democrats don't advocate gay marriage was the equivalent of throwing us under the bus.  It was a betrayal.  A farce.  Even more aggravating, a waste of time as clearly the 700 Club audience will NEVER, repeat, NEVER believe that we speak their crazy whacked out language.

    And now somehow when gay people who have supported the Democratic party through all of their hamfisted appeasement to the radical Republican agenda these past six years take umbrage at this, we're going to be called whiners who want the party to ADVOCATE HOMOSEXUALITY.  

    Yeah that's what makes us made, that the Democratic party isn't trying to make everybody gay (whether they were born that way or not).  Next up on the paranoid kneejerk moron fantasy list - African Americans are upset with the Democratic party for not advocating darker skin.

    You sir are an idiot.  I take great wonder at your ability to even navigate the keyboard to write your closeted intolerant little screed.  

    •  What? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Phoenix Woman, Rob Mac K

      Effusive logoiarrhea.  Now make some sort of argument.

      •  Oh I'm sorry (3+ / 3-)

        That probably was a little wordy for someone of such lofty intellect.

        Here it is again:

        Fuck you, you homophobic cowardly moronic piece of turd.

        Still unclear?  Come to Philly, I'd be SO fucking happy to reiterate this in person to you.

        •  Word Salad (1+ / 0-)

          Poor thing you can't formulate a real argument can you?

          •  No, he/she can't (0+ / 0-)

            That's why he/she cuts loose with the insults.

            John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

            by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:57:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Its called anger (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Smallbottle, homogenius, refinish69
              And if you think its going away you're wrong.  You dumbasses picked on the gay community and now we're fighting back.  We're not buying your half assed arguments and your closet intolerance is painfully showing.

              Its kind of pathetic.  

              I'm not sure what kind of nuanced argument I would need to make to get it through your skull that Democrats going on the 700 Club to telegraph to the most hateful section of American society that gay marriage will never happen pisses us off to no end.

              But you know what, I don't have to.  Continue with your thoughtless hero worship.  We'll take care of ourselves and do what we have to do, we always have.

              Good to know where certain members of our "community" stand though.  You sanctimonious pricks are no better than some of the Republicans out there.  No, you're WORSE.  You actually pretend you're on our side when in fact you just want us to keep our mouths shut and vote your people into office.

              Good luck with that.

        •  Hello?!? (0+ / 0-)

          So you have no proof of your assertions, and therefore just hysterically slime people?

          Wow.  How mature and enlightened.

          John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

          by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:56:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Is that what we're calling it? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            homogenius, refinish69, blueoasis
            This man accuses us of being angry the Democrats don't "advocate homosexuality".  Advocating.  Homosexuality.  

            How exactly does that work?  Are feminists "advocating vaginas"?  Are African Americans "advocating dark skin".

            That is SO homophobic it reeks.  Explain to me how demanding that Dems don't go on the 700 Club to misrepresent the party platform in a way that will appeal to the basest of human nature, then getting angry about it is somehow "advocating homosexuality".

            Demanding that the Democratic Party enforce a mandatory anal sodomy on all Americans is "advocating homosexuality".  Get the difference?

  •  What the hell is Dean doing (5+ / 0-)

    going on Pat Robertson's show in the first place? What next - an appearance at a Klan rally?  If we criticize McCain for speaking at Liberty College (and we should),then we shouldn't overlook this.

    Better beans and bacon in peace than cakes and ale in fear... Aesop

    by mr crabby on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:42:03 PM PDT

    •  Dean's trying to get those voters... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Terri, gmb

      ...who keep voting against their own best interests.  (Remember, he's the one who said that we have to talk to the people with Confederate flags in their trucks, because their kids don't have health care, either.)

      If you look at the full quote, you'll understand this.

      Here goes -- and note the bolded portions in particular:

      “Well, let's discuss abortion first,” Dean said. “I think what we have in common with the evangelical community is that we ought to have a lot fewer abortions than we do. The abortions have actually gone up in the last few years. [PW notes:  Precisely BECAUSE of Bush's gutting real family planning for abstinence-based bull, and that's what Dean's trying to communicate here.] We should have far fewer abortions...we ought to make sure that there's not just abstinence, but family planning used to get rid of abortion, and that is something that we share. Now the difference is that we don't think making criminals out of doctors and women is a good idea.”

      He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is that we believe in inclusion, that everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect, and that equal rights under the law are important.”

      “I'm not saying we're going to agree with everything, between the more conservative evangelicals and the Democrats, but there's a lot more common ground than most people realize, and we're willing to work with the evangelical community,” Dean said.

      Dean didn't lie -- as the diarist noted, he just (understandably) confused Kerry's 2004 platform (which had an anti-gay-marriage plank) with the DNC's 2004 platform.  BUT, he went on to immediately say that while the DNC's 2004 platform was that marriage was one-man/one-woman, the Democratic Party's CURRENT (as in "formulated AFTER Dean took over as DNC chair") platform is that we are all equal under the law.

      (By the way:  For the illiterate and excitable among us, Dean didn't become DNC Chair until 2005, and he had no part in either Kerry's or the DNC's platform construction.  But that won't stop the determined frothers.)

      John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

      by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:54:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  facts, facts.... (8+ / 0-)

      looks like dean did not go on the show, but was interviwed by one of the show's 'reporters'.  I am not sure that is the same thing at all. Even so, the guy showed up on Hannity and Colmes and was considered a hero for doing so.  

      Secondly, whether he was dragged to it or not, he did sign the civil unions bill in vermont did he not?

      Thirdly, are we now arguing that everybody in the democratic party champions gay marriage?  I agree that Dean, as the party rep should be more careful than he was.  But cut the guy some slack - he has had worse slip-ups

      he had the decency to come out with a detailed statement admitting his error and specifically stating that the Dem Party opposes a constitutional amendment on the issue.

      What do you want from him?  why the circular firing squad?  do we really believe that a democratic house will start out in 2007 with a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?

      Me, I think that Gay Marriage is a non issue - look at MA - they have had it on the books for quite a while now and I don't see any locust swarms. Obviously it does not end civilization as we know it.

      But it is going to take time for all of America or even a majority of America to come around to that point of view.  A long time , maybe even a couple of generations time.  But we will get there.

      In the meantime, can we please lay off the one guy who is working to be inclusive?  

      •  There is a world of difference (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        guyute16, blueoasis

        between Hannity and Colmes and the 700 club.  i have no problem with his reaching out to evangelical Christians. Hell, Jimmy Carter is one. But you don't start with Pat Robertson and his ilk.

        Better beans and bacon in peace than cakes and ale in fear... Aesop

        by mr crabby on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:15:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  look at it this way (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          gmb

          Jimmy Carter evangelists who voted dem before are not going to switch just because Dean gave an interview to Pat Robertson. So, no loss of votes there.

          There may be one or two 700 club viewers who looked at Dean and thought 'maybe these dems are not so bad after all' and decide to vote dem.  

          So, we lose no votes and maybe, just maybe, gain a few votes.

          This is a bad outcome how?

          It is a bad outcome if gays who supported dems decided not to support dem because dean slipped up on one sentence in a taped interview but corrected himself publicly a couple of days later.

          Go to it. Knock yourself out.

          •  Gay anger doesn't matter (4+ / 0-)

            Got it...thanks!
          •  Since you folks are obviously slow (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            guyute16, homogenius, MNW

            I'll try to explain it slowly.

            The Democratic party has been losing elections for decades because it has been perceived by everyone--from liberals to conservatives--as standing for absolutely nothing. Its "brand" is a pandering party that hands out gimmes to special interests while denying it in public. That's what the Democrats stand for in the eyes of Americans. And that's precisely the image Dean reinforced on this show.

            Second, the Republicans have been winning because they rally their base. Democrats prefer to attack their base and position themselves as Republican-lite. They have criticized you (as a young Internet extremist), they have critized the antiwar movement, they have dismissed impeachment advocates, and now they dismiss gays. This strategy is bleeding the party to death.

            Third, gay advocates have been trying to explain to the same sort of dense morons spewing nonsense all over this thread that running away from antigay petitions is killing us at the voting booth. These ballot measures have been focus-tested to death; the are extremely effective in rallying the base. The party is not going to win unless it finds a way to neutralize this issue. There are many possible pragmatic tactics to do this, but telling the public you agree with it isn't one of them.

            Perhaps the Democratic party could win a few more Southern states if it advocated reinstatement of Jim Crow laws. I mean, why not? Should black people vote for Republicans? I guess they could go "knock themselves out."

            Anybody have any other stupid questions?

      •  Why aren't they? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        llbear

        Thirdly, are we now arguing that everybody in the democratic party champions gay marriage?

        Do you think everyone in the Democratic party would champion the recognition of all of America's citizens' civil rights?

        As a gay man, I don't need anyone to champion marriage. What I need is for champions of my civil rights.

        Currently, I don't see many champions of civil rights in either party, namely because issues of civil rights are rarely debated on the grounds of civil rights but on the silly arguments pertaining to religious belief and "moral values"...you know, the issues Republicans have successfully been able to champion, even though they have nothing to do with the issues.

        Republicans bait the hook. Democrats swallow it and wallow in it.

        Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

        by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 09:45:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You're Conflating Issues (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    gmb

    Yes, there's a federal marriage amendment that's been floating about for some years.  But what this Yandura guy is talking about are the state-level initiatives to amend state constitutions to ban not only same-sex marriage, but also civil unions and even domestic partner benefits for public employees and their families.  Without getting in to the issue of whether the DNC or state parties should take a position on state referenda, I'll still point out that you ignore the issue raised in the comments you posted at the beginning of your diary and then went on to change the subject.

    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

    by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 06:42:07 PM PDT

    •  Now here is contribution (0+ / 0-)

      I said that it "seemed" like there was a conflict.  Possibly there isn't.  But that is still far from clear based on your comment.  There still seems like there is a conflict in tact.  Regardless, do you agree with Yandura?

      •  I Don't Understand Your Comment (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        hhex65

        And regarding the Yandura quotes, he seems muddled.  I was involved in the campaign against the Michigan amendment in 2004, and I've poured over the election results in great detail, and I'm convinced the only effect it had on other votes was possibly in driving up turnout among potential Republican voters who hadn't voted in the past, especially those who are elderly.  But in terms of changing votes, it did nothing.  The no vote was greater than the Kerry vote in lots of Republican areas, especially if the population of the jurisdiction was well-educated and upscale.  On the other hand, it passed or was just barely defeated in plenty of high-Dem areas where there was little decline in Kerry's peformance compared to Gore's.  So saying parties should defeat these amendments because they hurt Democrats, as Yandura seems to be implying, does several dumb things:

        1. He's supporting the claim made by some after the election that gay marriage cost Kerry the election, which is bullshit and proven to be bullshit by DaveOinSF just days after the election.  
        1. He's basing his argument on whether Dems should do something on electoral efficacy instead of whether it's the right thing to do.
        1. The DNC has little authority over state parties.  If a state party doesn't want to get involved in an amendment fight, the DNC (and hence Dean) can't do anything about it.
        1. In most places threatening to hold back GLBT community money is an empty threat.  In Michigan, for instance, it's a tiny fraction of money.  In some places, like NYC, the Bay Area, even Chicago or Boston, has some clout.  But in most places they have almost no political heft, so it's an empty threat on the state level, and misdirected if it's to punish the DNC for the actions of state Democratic parties.

        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

        by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:25:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Driving up the bigot vote? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          guyute16, homogenius

          I always hear this claim that "the gay issue" ™ causes more of the religious right to come out and vote.

          "The gay issue" ™ is about civil rights.

          Why aren't the Democrats using this issue to cause more PRINCIPLED Democrats to come out and vote? Why aren't they using this issue to cause more moderates and civil libertarians to come out and vote? Why aren't the Democrats using this issue to bring out more people to vote for them?

          You wanna know why?

          It's because Democrats have no courage.

          Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

          by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:38:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Evidence? (0+ / 0-)

            Do you have evidence that "Democrats"--all Democrats?  Some Democrats?  Every third Democrat?  Care to define your terms, or am I as a Democrat who worked his ass off to defeat the Michigan amendment devoid of courage?--any evidence that "Democrats" didn't or won't use "this issue" to bring out votes?  

            Any reason to believe it's a winning strategy?  If so, how come nobody in the GLBT community advocates putting marriage bans on the ballot so the effort to defeat them will drive up Democratic turnout?

            Or are you talking about some other issue?

            Or do you just not have any idea of what terms and arguments you've engaged here?  Are you just spewing, or do you have a coherent argument to make?

            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

            by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:58:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  As a party... (0+ / 0-)

              ...Democrats have no courage.

              "Any reason to believe it's a winning strategy?"

              It will never be a winning strategy as long as it continues to be perceived as an issue about marriage. It's not about marriage, it's about civil rights.

              "Or do you just not have any idea of what terms and arguments you've engaged here?  Are you just spewing, or do you have a coherent argument to make?"

              I am married.

              I am married in my heart.
              I am married in the eyes of my church.
              I am married in the eyes of my God.

              I am already married. I am married in every way but one.

              The right to legal recognition of my marriage is being denied me. This is not about my marriage. This is about my right to have my marriage legally recognized.

              Until Democrats (as a party) recognize that this issue is not about marriage at all, but about civil rights alone, they will continue to be useless in fighting against the ignorance-inducing religiosity of the right. The Republicans want to make this issue about marriage, and the Democrats consistently propogate that fallacy.

              Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

              by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:14:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again, Evidence? (0+ / 0-)

                Saying it over and over again, but not providing evidence that "Democrats" don't have courage doesn't prove anything other than that you substitute repetition for evidence when proffering an argument.  

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:25:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Prove it... (0+ / 0-)

                  You prove it.

                  Please provide examples of Democratic courage in regards to gay related issues.

                  Clinton signing the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy and the Defense of Marriage Act (in the middle of the night have you) were great moments in Democratic courage. You must be so proud.

                  Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                  by MNW on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:31:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Whatever (0+ / 0-)

                    Ignore the Massachusets party convention last year, or the fact that a big majority of Dems in Congress voted against the FMA.  That way you can always insult all Democrats, including me.  

                    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                    by DHinMI on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:38:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Insulting? (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      guyute16

                      You haven't got the slightest clue what it means to be insulted.

                      I'm insulted by the fact that my civil rights are being denied me and the politicians in this country, not to mention the vast majority of citizens, couldn't care less.

                      Do you know how insulting it is to have your life and your love compared to "man on dog" sex?

                      Do you know how insulting it is to have someone tell you that your marriage isn't worthy of legal recognition and that you should just accept separate and unequal, second-class citizenship?

                      Go fuck yourself.

                      Is that insulting? If so, you haven't got the slightest clue about what it means to be insulted.

                      Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

                      <