Another national database: Am I overreacting? w/poll

Yesterday morning I read an AP story, "Senate Votes to Double Employer Fines for Illegal Immigrants," which included this:

Employers who don't use the new computerized system could be fined $200 to $600. The system would include information from the Social Security Administration, the Internal Revenue Service and Homeland Security Department.

"What 'new computerized system?'" I asked myself. The article didn't explain, so I tried to find out for myself. The new system, it turns out, is the Employment Eligibility Verification System, which is intended, in part, to "respond to all inquiries ... on whether individuals are authorized to be employed and to register all times when such inquiries are not received."

At which point I asked myself, "Am I overreating, or have the neocons moved one step closer to their Big Brother dream of tracking and storing every move we make?"

More below the fold.

The Employment Eligibility Verification System (EEVS) arises from an amendment to S. 2611, the immigration bill being debated in the Senate. The amendment, S. Amdt. 4177 (Roll Call No. 00140), provides, in part:

(E) RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE COMMISSIONER OF SOCIAL SECURITY.--As part of the verification system, the Commissioner of Social Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security (and any designee of the Secretary selected to establish and administer the verification system), shall establish a reliable, secure method, which, within the time periods specified under subparagraphs (B) and (C), compares the name and social security account number provided in an inquiry against such information maintained by the Commissioner in order to validate (or not validate) the information provided regarding an individual whose identity and employment eligibility must be confirmed, the correspondence of the name and number, and whether the individual has presented a social security account number that is not valid for employment. The Commissioner shall not disclose or release social security information (other than such verification or nonverification) except as provided for in this section or section 205(c)(2)(I) of the Social Security Act.

(F) RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY.--(i) As part of the verification system, the Secretary of Homeland Security (in consultation with any designee of the Secretary selected to establish and administer the verification system), shall establish a reliable, secure method, which, within the time periods specified under subparagraphs (B) and (C), compares the name and alien identification or authorization number which are provided in an inquiry against such information maintained by the Secretary in order to validate (or not validate) the information provided, the correspondence of the name and number, and whether the alien is authorized to be employed in the United States.

How could this system possibly work unless all of us are in the database? The way I read it, every potential new hire must be run through the EEVS so that the employer can document, as it must, that the verification was obtained. In other words, the EEVS casts a big net, i.e., everyone, in order to catch the people who aren't legally permitted to work here.  

What can the information be used for?

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, nothing in this subsection shall be construed to permit or allow any department, bureau, or other agency of the United States Government to utilize any information, database, or other records assembled under this subsection for any purpose other than the enforcement and administration of the immigration laws, the Social Security Act, or any provision of Federal criminal law

Ah yes, "or any provision of Federal criminal law." That's the language that lets the information in this database be pulled away from its intended purpose and into the hands of other sectors of the federal government.

As the title of this diary indicates, I could be overreacting. But we've already seen the lengths this administration, with the blessing of Congress, will go to in order to compile as much information on us as possible. It could be another small step in the giant leap toward Total Information Awareness.

•  Not overrecting at all

  As these criminals have proved over and over again, what ever the text of the law says means NOTHING.  They will do what they please because "they hate us for our freedom"

  by OCD on Thu May 25, 2006 at 03:55:41 AM PDT

•  Not overreacting for other reasons...

  Nobody wants this surveillance database, especially not labor organizations and other pro-immigrant advocates. Only anti-immigrant right wing Tancredo-attrition supporters desire it, because in the absence of amnesty, it would prevent illegal immigrants from working. Go home, it says.

  "Immigrant checks would use faulty system.
  Costly expansion of 'dismal' worker database program meets opposition.
   
  By Griff Witte
  Updated: 2:16 a.m. ET May 25, 2006

  WASHINGTON - A federal database program with a checkered track record could dramatically expand to affect every U.S. employer and worker under provisions of the immigration legislation being considered by Congress.

  The program is intended to keep illegal immigrants from working in the United States and to discourage more from entering, but in nearly a decade of small-scale tests, it has had trouble distinguishing between those who are here legally and those who are not. Fixing it and rolling it out nationwide could cost more than $1 billion.

  Under the proposal, employers would be required to submit information about their employees to a federally administered electronic system that would automatically check workers' immigration status. Supporters say it is the only way to prevent employers from hiring illegal workers. But an unusual coalition has emerged to oppose the idea, with labor advocates saying it would dissuade legal immigrants from applying for work, big business groups asserting it would be too bureaucratic and civil-liberties organizations arguing that it would jeopardize individuals' privacy."

  by shergald on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:03:41 AM PDT

  •  Too bad the opposition wasn't enough

    to defeat the amendment. It passed 59-39.

    by VetGrl on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:10:02 AM PDT

  •  this is already the law in florida

    and small business owners aren't too happy about it either.  If someone presents you documentation you shouldn't have to worry about being fined.  
    I know someone who hires mexican workers in florida, pays them the same as everyone else (which is better than many of his peers in the area) and says they are the most dependable and hard working people on his crew.  They pay in to Social Security which helps everyone, even though they will never be able to collect it. They pay all the other taxes the rest of us pay.
    Now he is using this database and finding out that guys who have been with him for 10 years, who are the backbone of his crew, are illegal and he has to let them go.  

    by TeresaInPa on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:16:17 AM PDT

    •  I just hope this bill blows up in conference.

      Gridlock is the only answer to preserving this democracy at the moment.

      I have to wonder what it costs people to have this database and what happens when people fall off the list?  I mean what if you or I just were not on it.  What would the recourse be for us?  Would it take weeks or months to prove that you exist and are a citizen?

      I am in a freelance industry.  I wonder if now we have to check everyone's papers for that?  That is a nightmare I am loathe to contemplate.

      by inclusiveheart on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:35:03 AM PDT

      •  1 billion

        I have to wonder what it costs people to have this database and what happens when people fall off the list?

        to fix the current implementation according to the WP.

        by kindertotenlieder on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:43:44 AM PDT

        •  I actually was wondering how much

          a business has to pay to support the database.  Most businesses in the US are small businesses and these kinds of laws affect their bottom line.  There are tons of businesses that are still run without a computer or internet service.  You would be surprised.  People think of large corporations when they think about this stuff, but in reality most people aren't employed by large corporations at all.

          So does a guy who has no computer have to go out and buy one, get an internet connection, and learn to use what will probably be a complicated program in order to hire one person?  OR does this mean that we are all that much more beholden to the Diebolds and Credit tracking companies (who make mistakes often) who basically just had Congress create a new line of business for them?

          Furthermore, doesn't this allow people access to Social Security numbers that should not have them?  I mean if I can get into the the system to verify a number doesn't that mean that thieves can verify it as a good number to use for identity theft?

          There are so many problems with this thing I can't even begin to think about them.

          by inclusiveheart on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:53:29 AM PDT

      •  If I'm not mistaken, independent contractors must

        be run through the verification system, too. (I'd check the language of the amendment, but it's about time to head to work.)

        by VetGrl on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:47:09 AM PDT

        •  This thing presents a litany of problems.

          Seems to me as I think it through, this program increases significantly the potential for identity theft also.  Nothing like a way to verify that the Social Security number that a theif has stolen is a good number to use.

          Outrageous.

          by inclusiveheart on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:56:51 AM PDT

        •  yes, it covers 1099 contractor arrangements

          by clcaev on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:29:00 AM PDT

    •  Georgia took the voting route

      Rather than implement worker verification databases for the state, Georgia legislators passed the ID law requiring all voters to be registered with photo ID.  I insisted from the start that this was about illegal immigration and shutting out the illegals by denying them any form of valid ID, but the damn liberals had to jump up and down flailing their hands in the air, screaming "the white man still trying to keep the black man down!" When it had absolutely nothing to do with voter suppression and race, and everything to do with this immigration issue. NOW does it make sense, people?

      by retired on Thu May 25, 2006 at 11:08:37 PM PDT

      •  Worse yet.

        According to the bank according to the Patriot Act...If you apply for a loan and your assets are in a trust, they want a "complete" copy of the trust - no omissions, deletions of any kind. I told them to shove it.  Who I left my money to was none of their GD business.  

        by dkmich on Fri May 26, 2006 at 02:49:36 AM PDT

  •  Nice little bonus from the immigration panic

    We are well on our way to the seamless surveillance society.

    by janinsanfran on Thu May 25, 2006 at 11:31:13 PM PDT

•  Not at all.....

  Let's think about it. A couple of years or so ago the insurance companies among others were released to track information (for 'pre-existing conditions etc.) all of which results in more difficult or impossible insurance for people who hire on after being 'displaced' from a previous job. Then we've got the credit card and finance companies, able to freely track our every move in our world of consumption. Plus 'bankruptcy reform' condemning millions to wage-slavery and indenture for the rest of their lives. Then the pharmaceuticals - let's not go there! And that brings us to today.

  Can't over-react to all that; but... be careful! if you over-dissent, you may just end up stuck in that Other Web!!!

  by talkville on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:18:29 AM PDT

  •  Bankruptcy 'reform' has a database provision, too

    I hadn't thought about it in this context until you posted your comment because it's made up of publicly available data and researchers have long decried the dearth of information about bankruptcy filers. (And by researchers, I mean people like Elizabeth Warren who write a lot issues affecting the middle class.)

    But when you think about how all this information can be synthesized, it's truly frightening.

    by VetGrl on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:44:52 AM PDT

•  New database

  I'm guessing it would be a negative database, so if an SSN doesn't get a search match it gets flagged.  I still don't like it, and very much doubt the accuracy.  

  Sometime in the 80's the government "solved" the illegal  problem with Form I-9.  It required employers to have all new hires complete the form as verification of citizenship, requiring (iirc) 2 forms of ID. That went well. </snark>

  by Cecile on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:18:34 AM PDT

  •  Right

    Here's the WP article on problems with accuracy. Note that if you don't show up, it goes into manual mode. Sounds like a nightmare.

    by kindertotenlieder on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:25:42 AM PDT

  •  if...

    If all they're tracking is whether the SSN is legit, why not just ask to use the SSA database?  Why add in IRS?

    Nope.  Something fishy here.  

    (signed) someone who's worked for both SSA and IRS.

    by Nina Katarina on Thu May 25, 2006 at 05:18:23 AM PDT

•  maybe one of these 'employees' will take the

  new database home like the VA employee did, and they can then sell everyone's SSN's and whatever other data like birthdates that are needed to verify that it is the right person

  by testvet6778 on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:30:42 AM PDT

•  Sounds like the REAL ID

  Program which is coming under so much fire right now from the governors of states because it is so costly to begin with.

  This is also under fire by civil libertarians do to the requirement that all citizens have to PROVE they are citizens and prove all kinds of things.

  It's not unusual that these people would slip something like thins in when the other is failing,

  Good catch!

  by Wary on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:36:46 AM PDT

•  I know several companies

  are being asked to put in software that they hate.

  The Food Stamp office, my brother in law quit his excellent job, due to crappy software, and Gates Rubber Co, was Forced to put in a software system that they all hate. Anyone questioning it was told to shut up. And no, I am not kidding!

  I have wondered about this for a while. Our government is becoming more like China's and Russia's with every passing day.

  by missliberties on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:46:27 AM PDT

  •  Laughter...

    was heard from former Communist countries, as America became the worst dictatorship in history. It took a world crusade against the "Christian" theocrats of that country, aiding the Second American Revolution, to bring about peace.

    History of the World, 2056 Edition, World City Press, Chad.
    [Fell through a wormhole into the present]

    by Spoc42 on Fri May 26, 2006 at 02:09:18 AM PDT

•  Democrats Need Not Apply

  What a great tool for economic coercion. Also good for rationing fuel and food, as everything starts getting scarce. Gee, not employable? We have a nice 'summer camp' for you.

  Federal criminal law. Didn't I read here that any evidence uncovered as a part of the 'War on Terror' would be used in the prosecution of other crimes, thus 'federalizing' just about anything? Over-reacting? Nah.

  by Halcyon on Thu May 25, 2006 at 04:53:11 AM PDT

•  This won't accomplish anything good, either

  So the illegals are hired off the books and under the table - which means that, as compared to hiring them on fake green cards and/or social security cards, there are now no taxes withheld.

  Instead, let's have a simple law: Any corporation found guilty of knowingly hiring two or more illegals will be forfeit to the state and sold to cover enforcement costs. Heck, we already have that for those bringing in marijuana. What's more likely to stunt the work ethic of our citizens, pot smoking or illegals willing to work our jobs at a fraction of the pay? For the greater danger, there should be at least an equal penalty.

  by wytcld on Thu May 25, 2006 at 05:27:34 AM PDT

•  If you want to control illegal immigration

  It's cheaper and more effective than building a fence.

  As a former employer, I can say the system is setup now to protect employers. If there is "Instanta check" , there will be alot less employment of illegals.

  Right now, an illegal buys an ID, the employer says that looks like a real ID to me, you are hired. Social security gets around to you in a year or so and tells you the SS# is not valid. You tell the employee. He goes around the corner and buys a new ID. You put that number in. And wait for another year. The employer faces no penalty. The ID looked OK to him. That's why zero, or 1 or 2 employers have been penalized about this.

  If the employer is told in 30 seconds the number is not good. The employer has no excuse. He is guilty of hiring illegals. The data base exists right now. Social Security has a number for all of us. All you have to do is plug a name and a number in. The name and number match or they don't.

  Right now, an illegal Jose Gonzalez buys an ID for $50 or $100 with a real SS# that has his picture and a fake name, usually hispanic on it Say, Jose Rodrigues and number 11-111-1111. He becomes Mr. Rodriguez and pays taxes for 111-11-1111. A year later, Social Security notifies you the name and number do not match. You tell Jose, he either leaves or goes around the corner and buys a new ID. You put that in the system and wait anther year.When the employer knows immediately that 111-11-1111 belongs to Sally Gonzales. Then he can't hire Jose.

  Jose goes home. Because he can't work. He tells his buddies he couldn't find work in America without a real ID. Immigration then makes more work permits available than at present. People have real ID's. The number of people living in the shadows is reduced. They have more rights and are protected from some the abuse that goes on now.

  It's not perfect. But is cheaper than the National Guard and fences, and makes the employer liable for the first time. It draws on a data base that exists right now, and is tracking everybody right now, anyway, even as we speak.

  by Sherri in TX on Thu May 25, 2006 at 05:46:27 AM PDT

  •  control immigration

    You are right.  The magnet for the illegals is the job.  A package of documents can be bought almost anywhere there is a large illegal population.  The only way the magnet of the job can be eliminated is to have this combined data base, with a requirement that each and every employer checks prior to making a new hire.  

    Immigration and Social Security already have the necessary data bases, but to truly be effective they have to be merged.

    Absent this type of data base and requiring employers to use it, we will never get a handle on illegal immigration.

    by pax on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:46:41 PM PDT

•  Orwell Was An Optimist!

  No one could have anticipated the unexpected intrusions into Americans' privacy via interconnected computerized systems!

  Isn't it interesting, though, that the FBI has been unable to successfully update its antiquated computer systems, but the NSA et al. have (or, at least the assumption seems to be that they have) a software system of significantly greater complexity that works nearly-flawlessly.

  If true, what does that say about the differences between these two organizations in terms of both the technical talent & organizational competence needed to accomplish (or not accomplish!) their respective projects?
  
  

  by Pope Bandar bin Turtle on Thu May 25, 2006 at 06:34:49 AM PDT

•  exceptional control on political opponent's

  Currently, the government has to wait for a year or so for 1099 and other tax forms to be filed before they know where someone is working.  This will change all of that.  The government will have the ability directly to know before you're working for someone and to be able to prevent you're employment if they so choose.

  Never mind that this is supposedly for "immigration", it will soon get dressed up with all kinds of rules, exceptions, and special cases so that you're ability to work in the field you wish at the wages you can negotiate will be greatly hindered.

  Make a few nasty remarks against a current administration?  Perhaps next time your "dream job" puts in a verification submission it comes back with a big fat: "NO".   Of course, it will just be a mistake -- and require months of your time fixing it -- but the damage will be done, you will be un-hireable for months at a time, financially devastating you and your family.  Want to work  without approval: go for it, you'll be breaking the law and then they can throw you in jail.  Fantastic way to keep the population in-line.

  by clcaev on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:27:44 AM PDT

•  Correct me if I'm wrong...

  ...but, your SSN, paired with every job you've ever had (on the books, anyway), doesn't the IRS already have this?

  Not that I think a "no-work list" is a good idea, mind you -- just look at the bungled no-fly list, and imagine that multiplied by the number of Americans who need to earn a living versus the number who need to be in Florida in time for their tee-off. One doesn't even have to invoke the tinfoil hat, incompetence alone will ensure that this ruins innocent people's lives. But while the use they'd like to put this data to is sketchy, one can hardly object to the creation of a second database of information which they already have.

  by dwarf8 on Fri May 26, 2006 at 04:42:04 PM PDT