Daily Kos

My First Troll Diary!

Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:06:51 AM PDT

Your Democratic Action Group meets once a week. You started a few years back as a strategy group to win back the City Council, but it has since evolved into a forum to debate a wide array of topics relating to important national issues, the soul of the party, shared values and social responsibility.

One night, you see a new face. A young guy who was invited by a member who saw him deliver a most excellent anti-Bushco snark at a local college rally. You get to talking over cocktails. Out of nowhere he says "I think we still don't know the full truth about 9/11."

"Holy crap!," you think. "Not again!"

What comes next:

Of course you know he is right. Why would we know the whole truth about 9/11? We know the whole truth about NOTHING in the Bush administration. But the group has had this discussion a thousand times. It is not productive. Tempers flare. In fact, such discussions nearly led to the break up of the group about a year ago.

What do you do? Do you tell him that there is an agreement not to raise such topics and calmly explain why? Do you politely excuse yourself and go to another room?

Absolutely not. You reach over, grab a nearby pastry and smush it in his face. You kick him in the groin and call him a tinfoil hat whacko. Then you chase him around the room interrupting every conversation he joins until he finally leaves, never to return.

In the last 24 hours there have been extended conversations (here and here) about how this problem is handled on dKos.  We all know the problems of trolls, and the importance of policing.  But the majority seem to believe we could all benefit from a modified approach.  Rather than recount the problems that are well known, I would like to offer a solution to the problem of Troll Diaries. My suggestion is as follows:

1. Diaries that are clearly meant to inflame or insult remain fair game for Troll Hunting.

Yes, every now and then a bona-fide troll posts a diary designed to provoke and/or draw traffic to a Repug website.  These are pretty transparent.  My view? Get out the pies and flamethrowers.

2. Establish a clear, written policy on Conspiracy Theory (CT) diaries in the rules.

As of yesterday, the policies in Dkosopedia did not explicitly ban CT diaries.  I understand why they should, and apparently so does Markos.  Update the policy along the lines of:

We have learned that diaries that suggest conspiracy or speculate on secret government complicity in atrocities are unproductive, divisive and distract us from important issues. You are perfectly free to discuss these issues, just not here. It is a big internet and there are excellent opportunities to start your own blog. Should you decide to post such a diary here, it must be original, fresh and supported by orignal, compelling evidence. If not, expect to be greeted with ridicule, recipes, ponies and flames.

3. Add an item to the rules in the New Diary creation screen: "No Conspiracy Theory Diaries."

4. Require a Miranda Warning before the flaming begins.

When a newbie (I'm one, too) posts a CT diary that is seemingly in good faith, he or she should be informed promptly that the diary is in violation of the rules, given the appropriate links, and asked to withdraw the diary. If the user persists, then let the flame wars begin.

5. Add stalking of alleged trolls to the definition of ratings abuse.

On a number of occasions I have seen perfectly reasonable comments troll-rated for no apparent reason. Yesterday I learned why they are doing this. Some believe that "closet trolls" are participating productively in other discussions to gain mojo points to offset behaviour in other threads.  I don't deny it happens, but more often than not it strikes me as its own special conspiracy theory.  This type of stalking is disruptive to the rest of community.  It disrupts comment threads, and in some cases makes the follow-on comments disappear. If enough evidence exists to warrant troll-rating based only on the user name, then just ban the user.

6. Include blatant Troll-baiting as a reason to suspend TU status.

In a few instances, I have witnessed an active effort to provoke a "suspected troll" with abusive language and unprovoked over-the-top scorn. Eventually this leads the target to strike back in the same fashion, and the zeros start raining down.  Again, if evidence of trolldom is sufficient to justify this behaviour, ban the user.  Otherwise just keep it friendly with twizzlers and recipes.

That is my 2 cents.  Flame away.

Poll

Do you agree with my suggestions for a policy change?

35%29 votes
3%3 votes
13%11 votes
16%13 votes
30%25 votes

| 81 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: TU, Ratings Abuse, DKosopedia, Meta (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 82 comments

  •  In agreement except (9+ / 0-)

    no conspiracy theory diaries.  I believe the guidelines already state that unsupported, specious diaries that are long on conjecture and short on evidence are already veboten.  I'm not sure if they are still grounds for banning though.  

    So, you want to do a CT diary, go ahead.  Just don't expected to be greeted with flowers.

    Miranda warning - that should be standard practice.  Many people ignore trollish behavior, some people try to point out it to the user and some people start waving torches and pitchforks.  I've been the newbie who was warned once.  I've seen other people warned.  I hate to see the accusation of 'Troll!' after one or two comments.  If someone is a troll, we'll find out soon enough.

    Caveat: Troll ratings are also used for comments that 'violate community standards'.  Threats of violence or death gets my knee jerk troll rating.  Passion is fine but don't let it get the best of you.  

    Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

    by Fabian on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:15:25 AM PDT

  •  Agreed. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tvb, JPete, Do Tell, CSI Bentonville

    BTW, I was once again labeled as a suspected lurking troll again last night. Fortunately I could laugh it off.

    Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

    by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:17:12 AM PDT

    •  Before I label or troll rate someone (9+ / 0-)

      I always click on their handle and look at their body of work. If it indicates an extensive amount of decent contribution to the blog I won't troll rate, period. Some folks just have misunderstandings, very bad days, confusion, etc.

      But if their dKos history contains no profile, no diaries, and just a string of troll rated comments, I will sometimes sit on their comment page and monitor for a bit, then do what needs to be done.

      BTW, I haven't troll rated more often than once a week or so. Restraint is a good thing.

      -6.88/-5.64 * We won! We won!.... Now back on your heads.

      by John West on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:39:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Comments are NOT the only thing Kos looks at (0+ / 0-)

        He ALSO looks at the ratings pattern of people.

        And the ratings pattern of people is how several of the recent gang of trolls cooperating to diminish the power of DailyKos were exposed.

        That's a fact.

        ...but not your own facts.

        by slouise217 on Sat May 06, 2006 at 12:09:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That is excellent policy John (0+ / 0-)

        There are a few (one in particular) who get an idee fixe that someone is a troll and will do whatever necessary to prove it. Actually does it in spite of the users history, convinced there is some sort of cabal.

        I don't know if said person hears voices, or if it is just the product of a malicious, unchristian soul. But there are increasing numbers of users who are hoping it stops soon.

        Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

        by RickBoston on Sat May 06, 2006 at 10:43:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Voted Pie - aaaccckk (8+ / 0-)

    As a Pie War Veteran.....that's a tough vote for me.

    Some of the suggestions are good - especially the definition of CT diaries...and putting in the 'new diary' warnings. That said....I want them to add another box to the ratings. The old ratings were kind of mixed. Bring back the "1" as jerk / unproductive and "2" you are pushing your luck / marginal.

    Just an FYI - most of the troll hunters aren't out to 'get' anyone...except the most obnoxious and total trolls.

    Meta-diaries on trolls and CT diaries are annoying as well...been there done that for almost 2 years now.

    Well written diary...maybe not a good day for it though!

    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. Voltaire 1694-1778

    by SallyCat on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:18:55 AM PDT

  •  One thing that bothers me about 9/11 (0+ / 0-)

    I guess it's Rummy's known unknowns. I really don't think we will ever know the entire story of what happened. My bet is that there is a hellava lot more to the story than we will ever know.

  •  RickBoston (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, dmsilev, oregon blue, RickBoston

    You need to come to terms with your problem.

    We can help you.

    If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. - Cpt. Ian Fishback

    by Rick Oliver on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:22:28 AM PDT

  •  Controversial diaries in the FAQ (8+ / 0-)

    Controversial Diary Topics

    Diaries on certain topics are likely to generate angry responses. Most of these topics fall under the general heading of "conspiracy theories", i.e. "JFK was killed by Martians". The rule for posting such diaries is "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The more extreme the claim, the higher the burden of proof that commenters will demand. If you can't provide evidence to back up your claim, it is best not to post the diary. This guideline also applies to recommending extraordinary-claims diaries. If a diary makes an extreme claim with little or no evidence to back up that claim, it shouldn't be recommended, no matter what that claim is.

    which is more or less equivalent to the text you are suggesting.

    As far as first-offense warnings go, my experience has been that one of the early comments in such a diary is usually some variant of "here we go again", and if the diarist asks for clarification, more detail is provided.

    I do think that troll-rating-stalking is ratings abuse at best. I think people should rate comments, not commenters. My advice to anybody who believes that they've unfairly picked up a stalker is to e-mail Markos about it.

    -dms

    Having trouble finding stuff on Daily Kos? This page has some handy hints and tricks.

    by dmsilev on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:24:17 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, I read that too. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dmsilev, CSI Bentonville

      But when I was first here, I did not interpret that as they were strictly verboten. Fortunately, I have no interest in such a diary, and never clicked on one until I saw hidden comments.

      The policy seems to have moved to being much stricter than stated above, which I fully support. I was only suggesting that the language be made more explicit. Not saying my suggestion is the best, just throwing something out there.

      Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

      by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:34:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Been Accused of a Troll (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fabian, Do Tell, RickBoston

    Good points. We've got to be careful when troll hunting. Although I've never been accused being a troll on this blog, I've been accused of being a troll on the Huffington Post. Why? Because I cite what has been said on the book "Crashing the Gate." Many bloggers believe if you say that the Democrat and progressive strategy has been less effective than the Conservative strategy, then you are a troll. I've also been accused of being a troll when I made a comment that we have to be careful to get on the anti-Dubai (running our ports) bandwagon because much of the fuss started with Conservative talk shows who wanted to start an anti-Arab sentiment in this country. Sometimes Progressives disagree with other progressives and calling progressives who disagree with the majority of progressives just divides us even more.

  •  Add stalking of alleged trolls to the definition (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CSI Bentonville

    I agree completely with this. It's why I troll rated these 2 comments:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  You would say this is an alleged Troll? (0+ / 0-)

      If you don't think the comments posted by this guy indicates a certain troll, then I don't know what a troll is to you.

      Notice his reference to pro gay sodomy freaks, and pro abortion freaks.  Do your ratings of my comments mean you support him, or are happy to consider he is not a troll?

      Should I rate you likewise for inappropriately rating my posts?

      •  Like I said... (0+ / 0-)

        I think the comments that were troll-rated were not troll-worthy. I don't agree with the practice of following users around. That's my opinion.

        I concede I don't have the historical perspective, but in the few cases I have followed it struck me that one or two users got someone in their crosshairs and there was nothing the user could do to get out. All it takes is one argument to piss off the wrong person, and you are history.

        If the user has the history and is disruptive, ban him. That will disrupt the rest of the community much less than the way the hunt currently plays out.

        I understand you see it otherwise, and that is your right.

        Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

        by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:47:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ban him. (0+ / 0-)

          You must not understand the process of what happens here.  People are banned by TUs who give them enough 0s that they are automatically banned.

          Again, when you look at the comments the above linked to poster stated, do you think he should still have the priviledge to post on this blog?  
          He mocks all of what most people here stand for in that one comment.  70 people troll rated him.  If you look further in the other comments he continued to purposely post to spit in the faces of everyone in the democratic party and on this blog, he was troll rated highly by many many people.  I would like an answer.  Do you think that a person who purposely states the kind of things he did is a legitimate user of this blog?

          Except for rare situations, Kos does not go through the comments and ban everyone he thinks is inappropriate.  He leaves it up to trusted users.  A troll such as Quasimoto, or however he spells it, posts fairly normal comments once in a while to increase his mojo so that it cancels out zeroes.  In this way he stays to spit in the face of others into eternity.  His comments like the ones from the Kennedy diary are not opinions, they are comments intended to disrupt the blog and laugh when people defend his "right" to post a couple of other non troll comments.  Don't be a weakling in keeping the blog free of real trolls.

          Wishes don't come true here.  KOS has set rules about Conspiracy diaries, and has created a self policing site.  You can't get around it.  That is how it is.  Either be responsible of getting rid of trolls if you're a TU, or quit moaning when others do it.  

          •  I would rather that the outrageous comments (0+ / 0-)

            get 70 troll-ratings, to offset the recommended ones here and there, than the stalking.

            And yes, I do check hidden comments, and when there is one that is intentionally over the line, I troll rate it. Even if 50 people already have.  

            I understand that we have very different perspectives and that is okay.

            Now I would like to ask something of you. Look at my history. Tell me if you think the comment I got last night the "the jury is still out on me" and that I am suspected of being a "lurking troll" is the product of a healthy mind and supported by the evidence.

            That is the behavior people see, and that type of assault, in the opinion of many users new and old, is what is giving a bad name to troll-hunting.

            Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

            by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 02:31:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I looked back at your comments, but don't know (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              slouise217

              which comment you are referring to.  One thing I did notice though, that your comment history has not a lot if any rated down comments.  So, are you all upset because people have just said some things to you and called you a troll at times.  If that is what is bugging you, I don't know what to say, 'cause it will happen to you about a million more times if you post here much.  It happens to the best of us.

              For example, I have been called a stalker here, but I am not near to writing a diary about it.  I can't think of more than 2 times I have done what I did with Quasimoto in about a year and a half here.  The idea that I would be troll rated for rating an actual troll who abused the entire blog by posting the comments he did is laughable, and was in itself an abuse of TU ratings.  I have to ask again, in reality, what is the point of allowing Quasimoto to post any other comments after the ones he posted, and if banning depends on the number of zeroes he gets, then why is that wrong.  Seems sticking up for him, knowing his history, which I had the decency to post right along with the two zeroes I gave him, is questionable and soon that attitude will allow the blog to be nothing but a bunch of democratic comments inbetween a bunch of troll comments mocking gay people, pro-choice people, some of our greatest leaders, and the Democratic party itself.  Tell me, where do you see your responsibility in keeping this blog free from someone like him or are you content to fit one of your comments in between a bunch of comments like his whenever you get the chance?

              See, you have to have a discriminating attitude to participate here.  All comments are not to be treated the same, nor are all posters.  Your comment history is there for everyone to see you are not a troll, his comment history lies mostly in Hidden Comments, although if you read his other comments that have not been hidden, you will find homophobic statements that people just let fly.  People can see the difference and make a decision.  The fact that they will not do that contributes to ruining the blog, and does not make sense.  By the way, I will continue to troll rate people as severely trollish as he is.

              You on the other hand do not have any hidden comments that I can find, and should just maybe not be so sensitive.  You're nobody on Dk until somebody hates you.

              •  I appreciate that you share you views (0+ / 0-)

                No, I did not appreciate being called a troll, but I considered the source and laughed it off. What inspired me to write the diary is that last night in the discussions it became clear that there are things that can be improved. Or do you think it is impossible to improve on the current situation?

                Do you think that instead of more effectively warning people not to post CT diaries, it is better just to let users post them and then flame them?

                Do you really believe that everything is perfect in the troll-hunting community, and that the hundreds who question what is going on by a few users "just don't understand the threat?"

                Do you feel that everyone who stands up for someone judged to be a troll is a lurking troll himself? ("If you are not with us, you are against us.")

                Hopscotch, I am not trying to pick a fight, and I have no problem with you going after agents provocateur and pseudo-Drudge/Malkin/Hannity/Limbaugh trolls. In fact I applaud it. If you read my diary, you will see that it is mostly concerned with CT "trolls." I have never written a CT diary, so it is not about me. Further, I am opposed to the practice of attacking someone for an ad hominen attack when it was in response to an (uprated) ad hominen attack initated by a troll hunter.

                You and I simply disagree with how best to handle trolls. Maybe one year from now when I have seen a lot more, I will come back and say "Gee, Hopscotch, I was wrong and you were right." But one thing I know will never change: my judgement of the actions of a few trollhunter that have crossed the line into witch hunts. I have never seen you do it, so please don't take this as a personal affront.

                Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

                by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 03:39:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The 'jury is still out on you' comment (4+ / 0-)

                  strikes me as vaguely threatening.

                  It's as if to say, you better watch your ass because if I (or we) decide we don't like you we'll, ya know, do something about it.

                  I don't really have much of a problem with a small group of kossacks designating themselves troll hunters and zealously guarding the site. (Apparently Kos approves, as well.) What I do have a problem with is the obnoxcious way that it's being done.  The incivility.  The foul language.  And mainly the sadistic glee of the hunters as they gang up on their target.

                  It violates my sense of fair play, which is one of the reasons that I am a Dem to begin with.

                  It also makes the environment around here less than pleasant for those of us who use this place as a pointer to interesting articles or to see which way the progressive wind is blowing.

                  The funny thing is, in other contexts, I like those guys.  When they're prancing with the ponies, or making substantive political arguments, they're great because they're clearly intelligent people.

                  "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                  by Karmafish on Fri May 05, 2006 at 04:46:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wholeheartedly agree that most are decent people (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    joanneleon, Karmafish, Do Tell

                    I, too, have admired their creativity when focused on the more positive aspect.

                    I think you capture my feeling succintly with this:

                    What I do have a problem with is the obnoxcious way that it's being done.  The incivility.  The foul language.  And mainly the sadistic glee of the hunters as they gang up on their target.  It violates my sense of fair play, which is one of the reasons that I am a Dem to begin with.

                    Everytime I see it, it reminds me of a decent guy, who for some reason when he is in a bar, goes looking for a brawl. No one bites, so the taunts begin. "Come on you, Motherf**ker, I dare you to call me the same." Finally the mark does it, and fisticuffs ensue. I just don't understand it.

                    And then there is the dark one....But that is a whole separate story!

                    Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

                    by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 05:04:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  People who make troll posts (0+ / 0-)

            In one thread may make reasonable posts in another.

            IF they make a troll post in repeated threads, it IS fair to say "this is a troll post here, and here's why it's a troll post" AND "this person has repeatedly made troll posts in the past".

            Saying ANYTHING without documenting it is a personal attack.

            Bringing up old news in this way is stalking, and is out of line.

            ...but not your own facts.

            by slouise217 on Sat May 06, 2006 at 12:15:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Old news? (0+ / 0-)

              If you are referring to my rating a comment which was then referred to in the comment above, you need to read the trolls  previous comments from the SAME NIGHT and tell me that it was not a troll who needs to be banned.  I am getting pretty tired of having to point this out repeatedly, but if you think that that poster should live to post another day, then I have to question what the possible reason you would ever have TU status to begin with.  People who make comments like he did should not be given another chance.

              Please check out the root comment which were troll rated before discussing this, and if you think this person should be able to post I questoin your understanding of the reason for TU and the autobanning process.  The fact that my comments were troll rated in the other thread was not legitimate,my history shows no trolling, whatsoever,  but that seems just fine to all the defenders of troll rights.

              •  Don't worry Hopscotch, (0+ / 0-)

                I think that was meant for me. It would appear that I am the next one that she wants to convince Kos to take away rating privileges for, because I try to support people she ratings-abuses.

                You will notice that I took away the agree on the post you objected to. It was a close call for me. I still don't like the practice of following someone to productive threads (and moreover the person I agreed with does not seem to be a troll), but you are correct that the person you followed is not worthy.

                Life is not always black and white.

                I stand by my assertion that with regard to CT diaries, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and that simply posting a CT diary under the current rules as written does not a troll make. Nor does standing up for someone abusively accused.

                Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

                by RickBoston on Sat May 06, 2006 at 08:45:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do agree with your idea that Kos should post or (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  RickBoston

                  make clearer his position on CT diaries.  He mostly makes statements in diaries which make a big splash at the time, but then are gone and if you miss them that day, you don't know that he objects to things or makes rules he wants followed.

                  Same goes with the fact that this is a Democratic blog in existence to get Democrats elected.  I see that that is now posted in the FAQs, but that question comes up over and over again.  People just think it is a blog to put anything people consider progressive or liberal on.  Likewise that should be prominently posted.

                  I think that CT diaries can get out of hand and at the time they were objected to, they really had.  And I also think that some are posted by trolls, not all of them.  Because I see names in those threads that I have never seen before and rarely if ever do again.  They don't show up in political discussions or any other kinds of threads.  They may be well meaning, but wacky.  Very wacky, some of them.

                  The whole point of Kos's objection to these types of threads is that that some of them can paint us as crazy paranoids against the government, which of course interferes with getting candidates elected.  

                  So, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, and again, you are right about some people who go overboard against people they consider trolls.  There area about 4 or 5 of the same people who join in.  Sometimes, I rate the people up because I feel they are pushed into making trollish comments to defend themselves.  If you're called a name, you have a right to do the same to the name caller.  Maybe, not a mature approach, but you have a right to defend yourself, and then the person ends up getting further troll rated.  Not a good senerio.  And provoking people into trolling in not right.

                  As far as the person you think I followed, I was actually in that thread already posting before he came along, but had previously been in the Kennedy thread and saw what he was doing.  Since the second thread was about the PA election, and I am from PA, I resented the fact that he was probably up to no good in coming to that diary.  We have enough upheaval in PA Casey/Santorum without deliberate trolls stirring things up.  I wanted people to know what he had been doing moments before.  So, no, I wasn't following him at all.  Just aware of his presence.  

                  I also have not read the last million post 911 thread or the TU thread.  I get enough aggravation on here reading stuff as it is, and saw how many comments from the 911 diary were in hidden comments.  I didn't want to go there.  

                  So, thanks for your thoughts.  I haven't see you do anything trollish.  So keep on speaking your mind.  From the looks of your comment page, you don't have anything to worry about.  

  •  I don't mind (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CSI Bentonville, RickBoston

    CT diaries, but I agree it's silly to reccomend them. I like stories about alien abductions and bigfoot, but I don't believe a word of them. There can be an entertainment value to idle, and even ridiculous, speculation. As long as it's recognized as such, I see no harm.

    There's a link to the DKos front page at the top and at the bottom of every page. There's also the back button. That's how I generally deal with diaries that seem like a waste. Hell. Come to think on it, at some point, that's how I deal with all diaries!

  •  I went to Hidden Comments (7+ / 0-)

    yesterday and followed some of the reccomends and trolls- I saw more troll ratings by the same few indivuals in the first page, then I have given in the year that I've been a TU here.
      It seems to me that these self-appointed (and yes I read Markos's post) police are more the problem than  the perported "trolls".
      Obviously the new rating system isn't working, and the atmosphere around here is getting a bit ripe.
      It's fine to down-rate if you believe the remark is trollish, but to activly hound the other visitors is to appoint yourself as hall monitor in this junior high enviornment and as everyone here should know - The person who wants to be the policeman is usually the one who should be the last person to have the job. (This applies to politicians, also.)

    Wherefore do ye toil; is it not that ye may live and be happy? And if ye toil only that ye may toil more, when shall happiness find you?

    by keefer55 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:44:54 AM PDT

  •  your Diary is an example of the problem (0+ / 0-)

    •  How so? (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

      Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

      by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:50:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your comment is an example of the problem ;^) (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RickBoston

      heh, sorry about that, but that makes about as much sense as your comment does -- to me at least.

      Prove me wrong by explaining?

      Cheers -

      the injectapods look like nothing less than lobsters with bat wings. "I don't know, but I don't like it," says Agar, throwing a stick at the beastie

      by stevelu on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:54:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  whoops, misread your title there (0+ / 0-)

        civil society has also posted a diary on this issue, and from the content it's pretty clear that I misunderstood the comment.  Must mean the comments show evidence of the problem...

        sorry bout that

        the injectapods look like nothing less than lobsters with bat wings. "I don't know, but I don't like it," says Agar, throwing a stick at the beastie

        by stevelu on Fri May 05, 2006 at 10:15:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RickBoston

    It's important to keep the focus. I really like the aspects of DailyKos that discuss and develop applicable strategies that will win elections. I like to think the stuff I've put together with the thank you sites plays a role, serving to boost media awareness, but I sometimes fear it's distracting from what I love about this site. In general - Rather than descending into analysis and after analysis of some media event, I'd like to see this place continue to act as a substantive think tank. Let this place serve as a launching pad for these media events/phenomena, while maintaining the discipline to get back on the task of idea and strategy development quickly.

  •  Why eliminate amusing trolls? (0+ / 0-)

    Geez, another overwrought troll diary. I'm getting tired of people who want to impose thought orthodoxy on the wide diversity of people who haunt these pages.

    Frankly, I find most of the trolls I see pretty amusing, as in being amused by stupid pet tricks. Most of them are completely ignorant, fact-free idiots whose diatribes provide a little comic relief from all the outrage one finds in diaries on this site. The really hateful trolls whose only objective is to disrupt and spew venom are easily recognized and 'recipe'd' out.

    Chill out, dude. I suspect the great majority of readers here are perfectly capable of recognizing a troll and will act appropriately. Just like in the Bogie movie, we don't need no stinking badge orthodoxy.

    -6.38/-3.79::'A man is incapable of comprehending any argument that interferes with his revenues.' Descartes

    by skrymir on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:19:49 AM PDT

  •  Well you're wrong about some things. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, slouise217, BobzCat

    Some believe that "closet trolls" are participating productively in other discussions to gain mojo points to offset behaviour in other threads.

    Happens all the time.  If you have TU and know how to examine people's ratings history (Naked dKos, waay down at the bottom of the FAQ) you can easily come up with a dozen examples, some of whom are quite infamous.

    In fact most trolls are easily identified by their history since they tend to monomania.  If this is your 15th diary about WTC 7, I know what you are.  Another example is the green trolls.  If you're not serious about recapturing at least the House, you're not serious at all.  Diebold and Eeyore trolls, we have a saying in my meatspace club- if things are that bad, jump.  The rest of us have work to do.

    Have you ever seen somebody hijack a thread with long and tedious off topic posts and pictures.  C'mon, I know you have, what do you think recipes are.  And then there are the 'Why' 'Why' flies.  Go to bed baby.

    I don't troll rate often, but when I do rest assured I have examined your history as carefully as anyone outside an FP can.  Sometimes a mild reprimand on a particularly unfortunate comment will do.  Other times I wish to draw attention to the behavior so your mojo meter goes down and you're staring at a lonely little recommend box and can't do anymore damage.

    But if you really piss me off you'll never know it, because I will assemble the record of your continued misbehavior (with links) and mail it along with my recommendation that your priviledges be restricted or that you be outright banned to my favorite Front Pager who has the secret hotline to Markos.

    Don't think I haven't done it and that I wouldn't do it again.

    Without TU moderation via the ratings system what you end up with is a site like RedState, they used to have ratings, now they have editors and one step over the line and 'Blam'.  There are no warnings.  I post there occasionally but it's no fun at all.

    •  Never denied the existence of real trolls (0+ / 0-)

      But I still think banning is a far more effective way that 89-comment flame wars stretching across 5 diaries. And I don't think what I suggested in any way undermines your way of handling the 7th WTC diary.

      I personally think it would better to ban the user after diary #2 or #3, rather than let the future 4 or 5 diaries push others more quickly down the front page.

      Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

      by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:27:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your missing the beauty part. (2+ / 0-)

        Write as many diaries as you like.  When your pet theory is proven true you are still around to give all us jerks a big fat "I told you so".

        I've seen it happen.

        Instead the system you propose is less tolerant of creative and offbeat thought.  Step outside the community norms and you're history baby.  Get bounced from TU and you still have a chance to redeem yourself.

        TU is just not that big a deal.

        • You get to troll rate.
        • You get to see who does the troll rating.
        • You can see hidden coments.
        • You can edit tags.

        Of all of those the only one I crave is Tag editing.  People who don't use commas drive me nuts.

        •  I agree on the tags. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ek hornbeck

          I hate when someone fills the tags with 8 different stupid snark tags. If I were dictator, I would make that cause for banning!

          About 8 months before I registered, I was checking out Kos on Plame and tried to search by tags. I had to re-boot three times. I sent Markos an email with an egregious example of abusive tagging, and why it bothered me. Within 30 minutes he posted my example in an open thread comment. I didn't get the impression that many took him seriously, and the situation seems to have gotten worse.

          BTW, did I forget to use commas? If so, SORRY!

          Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

          by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:50:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  but not all trolls are created equal (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    stevelu, RickBoston

    Are they?  I mean, do you recognize different gradations of "trollishness?"  Some kid who's heard a 9/11 conspiracy theory and wants to post about it is, yeah, redundant, and he should have checked the archives to see if it's been covered before, but I don't think he's deserving of the same kind of scorn as, say, a visitor from Freeperland.  Both raise the signal-to-noise ratio, but I think there's a qualitative difference there in terms of intent and effect.

    The world is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced. -Alan Watts

    by pr00de on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:07:09 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this diary (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    glingle, Karmafish

    Seems like the next flame war here at dkos is simmering away, bout ready to boil over.  

    I hope that kos and the front pagers take these suggestions seriously.  I think you laid things out quite well.

    And I hope that any troll catchers who are reading this take a serious look at whether every 'police action' they take is truly essential for the site.  We do appreciate what those folks do.  Hell, I've caught some folks in the past who I'm sure trying to manipulate and game the site, and its a great feeling to nail such an asshole.  

    But it's a bit like the criminal justice system:  you can't obsess about punishing every misdeed and criminal, or you run the serious risk of creating an atmosphere in which the innocent get swept up and punished all too often, and a vast number of folks feel uneasy that the arm of the law might grab them next.

    Sometimes you have to let that righteous feeling sit in your heart and refrain; other times you have to nail the sucker.  Seems like some of our most passionate rule-enforcers need to ease the dial back a tad.

    One of kos's great moves when he built this site was to enforce standards, so that a community could form.  But for my money, his instincts seem to run a bit to far on the 'my way or the highway' side of things when these controversies crop up.  I will be interested to see how this one plays out.  Better than the old pie wars, I hope.

    the injectapods look like nothing less than lobsters with bat wings. "I don't know, but I don't like it," says Agar, throwing a stick at the beastie

    by stevelu on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:35:58 AM PDT

    •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

      But it's a bit like the criminal justice system: you can't obsess about punishing every misdeed...or you run the serious risk of creating an atmosphere in which the innocent get swept up and punished all too often, and a vast number of folks feel uneasy that the arm of the law might grab them next.

      Strangely, it seems some folks are nostalgic for the pie wars at dKos, at the same time we are trying to stop them in the Democratic party!

      Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

      by RickBoston on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:45:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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