Daily Kos

A few months ago, people were being banned for posting election fraud diaries, but now...

Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:31:42 AM PDT

...we have a mainstream Democratic politician like Tom Vilsack giving credence to fraud allegations, and citing people like Steven Freeman, who, as I recall, until recently, was being dismissed by Kos front pagers and other "anti-fraudsters" as not having the expertise (in that he is an academic, not a professional pollster) to claim that the exit polls in Ohio were accurate and the election results therefore suspicious. On Heartland PAC's Web site (http://www.heartlandpac.org/...) Vilsack writes of RFK Jr.'s recent Rolling Stone article:
"Kennedy does an exceptionally fine job explaining the mystery of 2004 exit polling. He uses data by Steven F. Freeman, who specializes in research methodology, to support his thesis the exit polls were accurate"

He goes on to write:

"This article is a must-read for our community and anyone who cares about the electoral process."

I've also noticed that there seem to be fewer and fewer "anti-fraudster" opinions expressed in recent diaries on the 2004 election. A major shift appears to have taken place in people's view of the whole fraud argument. If so, is this just the effect of the RFK Jr. article, or is something else going on? And, if you are reading this and you are a former "anti-fraudster" who has changed his or her mind, what has caused you to do so?

Tags: 2004 elections, Tom Vilsack, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  let the flying of fur commence ... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SarahLee, Cedwyn
  •  Presentation and Framing (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ed in Montana, SarahLee, marchmoon

    are important in the political discussion.

    However, one's perceptions only reveals one's own reality.

    Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:37:15 AM PDT

    •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

      You don't think there's such a thing as objective truth?

      (Especially on the subject of elections, which involve hard numbers.)

      •  Uncertainty Principle (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SarahLee

        No such thing as objective truth in the universe of relativity in which we live. It's just slow getting into peoples' minds. It also leads to authoritarianism when you think like that.

        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

        by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:45:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nonsense. (0+ / 0-)

          I think you have it ass-backwards.  

          In the absence of any standard of truth and factual objectivity, those who hold political and economic power in a society can twist the truth into whatever "truthiness" they like.  This is exactly what the Bush gang, Fox "News," and the religious right have been doing for the past five years.  

          Haven't you figured that out yet?

          "We control reality because we control the mind.  Reality is inside the skull.  You will learn by degrees, Winston.  There is nothing that we could not do.  Invisibility, levitation - anything.  I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wished to.  I do not wish it, because the Party does not wish it.  You must get rid of those nineteenth-century ideas about the laws of nature.  We make the laws of nature." - O'Brien, in George Orwell's 1984.

  •  I think the RFK Jr. (0+ / 0-)

    story did make some difference, actually.  

    Remember that some of the folks around here are knee-jerk party functionaries, and their motives in suppressing vote-fraud conversation are not always good.  Nor are they entirely bad.  

    Why, just yesterday someone was spewing venom at the mere mention of Greg Palast's name . . .

  •  still the same... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    grayslady

    i'm agnostic if the question is if i think it would have changed the 2004 outcome.

    AND i think that's a failure of our system.  we need to be able to have more (realistic) faith in the system.

    i think it was wrong to ban people over this.... but, not my call - not my site... and i may be missing key data which would make me more sympathetic to the banning....

    bottom line - i'm glad to see people like RFK Jr. and Tom Vilsack discussing it openly.  shouldn't be the case, but they've done alot to make it an "acceptable" topic of discussion.  so i say, good for them.

    now, what are we going to do about it?

    for 2006 we've got to work our asses off to have overwelming numbers on our side to make it REALLY hard to steal (if that is what could happen).

    for 2008 we need to organize non-partisan exit polling.... and do what we can to make the election officials a non-partisan position.

    •  Kos is a fairly conservative site (0+ / 0-)

      It's about putting dems in office to change things. Election fraud is a deeper issue and for that matter has always been a part of elections in this country. Only it wasn't openly admitted,but the old party bosses did it all the time. And I personally know of someone who voted twice for Kerry and I was even thinking of it myself. Only I wasn't doing it with two states but two counties in MO and I was afraid I'd get caught.

      In Phila I never worried about things like that. Here it's different. People are afraid of doing something wrong. There they were not.

      But in everyday life this fear inhibits one and depresses economics.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:50:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  please don't cheat... (0+ / 0-)

        hey - i know Ds have done it too. couldn't have lived near chicago w/out knowing about the machine.

        that doesn't make it right.  but if representative democracy is going to have any meaning - then we must respect the will of  the people.  please.

  •  The Jury Has Been Out... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SarahLee

    .. until the overwhelming evidence has been articulated.

    It is being articulated by the likes of Conyers, RFK jr and others...

    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude --Pablo Neruda

    by justiceputnam on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:46:11 AM PDT

    •  Ovewhelming Evidence Needed for Conviction-- (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee, corvo

      not for investigation.

      There's far more than enough needed to make a legitimate call for formal investigation.

      If these were dollars instead of ballots there would be no discussion at all. There'd have long ago been a published full audit and/or people in prison.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:39:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Was that what you (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Plutonium Page, cookiebear, BarbinMD

    were banned for?

    •  I was a lurker until recently... (8+ / 0-)

      ...so I have yet to be banned. However, I did find the bans disturbing, simply because I thought they were heavy handed and totally unnecessary. The interactive nature of this site seemed to be sorting out the liars and nutjobs in the fraud debate very well on its own: bad ideas, conspiracy theories and out-and-out bullshit on the 2004 election (e.g. Wayne Madsen's check) would get posited here, and gradually torn to pieces by the collective force of hundreds or thousands of intelligent and informed people discussing them. The system here was working perfectly well on its own, and I thought banning people (presumably out of fear for the site's "reputation") showed a stunning lack of confidence in the ability of this community to sort the wheat from the chaff.

      "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." Nancy Pelosi

      by StupidAsshole on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:54:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Follow the money: (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        gmb, jfadden, cassidy3, blueoasis

        from the Party perspective, talk about vote fraud --> voter hopelessness --> voter apathy --> less voter money for Party candidates.

      •  The bannings last year (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BobzCat

        were mostly over the bombings in London and certain aspects of 9/11. In other words, over the top speculation presented as fact. If someone has the evidence to present on these issues that is not a problem. People can't seem to be able to recognize the difference. Real evidence has always been welcome here. Plus, most people were reinstated.

        No one here claims that all is well with our election system. No one. There are arguments over what constitutes evidence of "stolen" - but everyone is aware there are areas in the election process that are open to exploitation.

        This diary is disingenuous. Georgia10 really got noticed here for her well thought out diaries on the election - and now she is a front page diarist. If what you are claiming is true ... how the hell did that happen?

        I'm finding it odd that all of these new "lurkers" are showing up with analysis of old issues that mostly took place in the HC list. If this was such a concern to you, why didn't you post then?

        •  I'm not quite sure why you see the diary... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SarahLee, corvo, grayscale

          ...as disingenuous. I was simply pointing out that we seem to have gone from a situation where the fraud issue was associated with bannings, vicious arguments, etc. to a situation where it seems to be gaining more acceptance on this site and within the mainstream Democratic party. And I was wondering what had led to the change.

          As for my having lurked and not spoken out on all this earlier: you're right. I probably should have.

          "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." Nancy Pelosi

          by StupidAsshole on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:28:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I shut up too when I was banned for awhile (0+ / 0-)

            and didn't mention it. Then I noticed more and more people were commenting on it and I saw that accepted opinion was moving. Same on election fraud. I knew it went on in Ohio because I was here all night feeling companionship with my misery. And I remember all the Ohio Kos people begging for help at the polls. Begging people to come there. Crying over the fraud.

            And so I knew it was true. Their passion and tears were real.

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 12:01:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Desiring real hard evidence (0+ / 0-)

          is the same mistake the Bushies made over the info on Bin Laden's  intent to bomb the WTC.

          It is all about connecting the dots. That depends on intuition of possibilities,who profits,and following the money trail.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:58:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you (0+ / 0-)

        and the 9-11 stuff comes up with great fervor every now and then. I still wear a tin foil hat over that one and think time will prove me right. But finding out later is small consolation after the damage is done. People have short memories and who the hell cares about Pearl Harbor now except how much money a movie about it made.

        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

        by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:54:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There's a resolution you should sign (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    StupidAsshole
    Promoting transparency of the voting process.  

    http://www.heartlandpac.org/...

    "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they kill, there would be no more wars." - Abbie Hoffman

    by Jensequitur on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:55:45 AM PDT

  •  Credibility (7+ / 0-)

    The recent phenomenon raises a legitimate issue as to whether the truth can only be recognized when presented/acknowledged by celebrities - even on this site.  I certainly hope not.

    •  I saw the same thing at Camp Casey (0+ / 0-)

      last summer. The hierarchy of personalities was getting firmly set in stone.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 12:02:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Framing (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ROGNM, housesella, cookiebear, BobzCat

    "Fraud" versus "stolen".  Conspiracy theories about stealing, not interesting.  Sourced information about fraud, we'll take all we can get.

    We're all just monkeys burning in hell. SmokeyMonkey.org

    by smokeymonkey on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:59:35 AM PDT

  •  right on (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    gmb, Patriot for Al Gore, corvo

    I've been thinking that too. What once was even too crazy for the far left is now becoming a mainstream concept. We should have been taken seriously all along.

    "...I was worried about what he'd do to the economy... muck up the drinking water...the failure of my pessimistic imagination...boggles my mind" Sarah Vowell

    by CrazyDem on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:01:51 AM PDT

  •  I was a a former 'anti-fraudster' (5+ / 0-)

    but I changed my mind on the issue, principally because of the
    obvious sincerity and manifest scholarship of the type of poster
    who would refer to himself as
    StupidAsshole.

    Slap it. Shoot it. Kaboot it.

    by adios on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:03:03 AM PDT

  •  I wasn't banned . . . (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sj, gmb, corvo, jfadden, IL dac, cassidy3

    but my post was called an "embarrassment" to DailyKos.

    It was a snark about how the surge in support for the dem candidate for governor was meaningless as long as the repugs control the voting machines.

    Just a short snark.

    And I was called an embarrassment.

    Mere weeks later moderate centrist Vilsack says the same thing, sans snark.

    I'm not ashamed.

    "Balance" does not mean giving the same weight to a lie as you do to the truth.

    by delphine on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:04:34 AM PDT

  •  hm (0+ / 0-)

    I've also noticed that there seem to be fewer and fewer "anti-fraudster" opinions expressed in recent diaries on the 2004 election.

    That's why those of us who know the difference between fantasy and reality realize that there's no point in even commenting on those diaries.  There's no hope for you guys.  You've taken the Bev Harris bait, which is just about as financially damaging to you guys as Scientology is to those who fall for that.


    Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed. -- Bruce Springsteen

    by Plutonium Page on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:07:44 AM PDT

  •  As Mr. Burns would say: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    corvo

    "I told you so" has a brother, and his name is, "STFU".

    The reason the anti-fraudsters are posting less is because STFU is the only response they have anymore and doing THAT too often can get you banned!

    I love the Simpsons...

  •  Most of the election fraud diaries (4+ / 0-)

    after the 2004 election were of the CT type - short on facts and long (in some instances complete) on conjecture.  There was little or no research other than the exit polling data, and that died an early media death.

    Since that time more hard and damning data has been collected.  This time around it is possible to add the factual seasoning to the stew.

    When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

    by wozzle on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:34:21 AM PDT

  •  Lou Dobbs (0+ / 0-)

    wants to go back to paper ballots.  When a bedrock conservative like Lou says, "paper ballots", there must be a good reason.

    The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all - JFK- 5/18/63-Vanderbilt Univ.

    by oibme on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:52:20 AM PDT

  •  I've said it before . . . (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smokeymonkey

    I think it's probably impossible to prove whether or not there was fraud, but there were ample opportunities for fraud, and NOBODY can say for sure whether it was present or not.  And that's a serious problem, whether the election was actually stolen or not.

    One of the Republican poll watchers at a couple of early voting sites at which I was working in Dade County was a pretty objective guy who has experience with elections in the developing world.  At one point, he observed that if elections in some of the country were conducted in the same manner as ours, there would be rioting in the streets. (This was before election day itself, so neither of us knew at the time who the ultimate winner would be, but we agreed that the process was wide open to a variety of types of fraud.)

    One of my concerns about allegations that the election WAS stolen (even though I think there is cetainly circumstantial evidence that it might have been) is that this makes the abysmal state of our present election system a partisan issue on which Republicans feel compelled to be defensive.  The important thing isn't rehashing the last election; it's changing the election system so that we can be confident that results in the future are accurate -- and I think the best way to get there is to emphasize the fact that the present system is wide open to fraud, rather than allegations that the last election was stolen, regardless of how strong our suspicions may be on that issue.

    "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

    by leevank on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 11:56:21 AM PDT

    •  Diebold machines were known to be the master key (0+ / 0-)

      to stealing the election,hence fraud,over a year before 2004. It was common knowledge in some libertarian and radical circles.

      Of course there always has been fraud,but since the elections were not so close it didn't matter. Statistically,that is,so nothing was done about it. If one side called foul,then the other side was going to get in the shit soup too,so they all shut up.

      But now it's different. Communication is too fast for them. We know quickly. and we have access to so much info.

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 12:08:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Al Gore and the Dems Did NOTHING To Help... (0+ / 0-)

    the Congressional Black Caucus' inquiry into voter fraud in Florida.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/...

    January 7, 2001

    "May God bless our new president and new vice president, and may God bless the United States of America," Gore said to a standing ovation from the remaining House and Senate members, before gaveling the joint session to a close and signing autographs.

    At his ranch in Crawford, Texas, Bush said, "I'm honored. I guess I better go and write an inaugural speech." He added, "I want to be the president of everybody, whether they supported me or not."

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