Daily Kos

How much more do the corporations need before it trickles down?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:28:29 AM PDT

By now, we all know the logic of trickle down economics, or "reform": make markets, especially labor markets, more flexible in order to improve company profits (that means lower wages and union busting); eliminates taxes and regulations to unleash entrepreneurial spirit, and see as companies hire more people and spread the wealth.

Whether or not "reform" have been implemented, the official intermediate goals, corporate profits, has certainly been reached:


US companies boost share of economic pie

US companies have increased their share of the economic pie at a faster rate over the past five years than at any time since the second world war.

Recent government figures show that profits from current production as a share of national income have risen from 7 per cent in mid-2001 to 12.2 per cent at the start of this year. This rate of growth is unprecedented since collection of these figures began in 1947.

Adapted from an European Tribune story.

Just a few more numbers from that article:


Profits have climbed by 123 per cent over the same period, soaring from $714.5bn (€552.57bn, £378.89bn) to $1,595.4bn - also the fastest increase since records began. Other official data have shown that profit growth by manufacturing companies, often seen as one of the weakest sectors, has outstripped the rest of the economy. The figures suggest corporate America is enjoying one of its best periods despite more competition from low-cost countries and tougher corporate governance and disclosure rules.

Even during the boom of the late 1990s, companies only managed a 90 per cent increase in profits over a four and a half year period. Annual data on profits go back to 1929; there were faster rates of profit growth in the 1930s, as the US emerged from the great depression. "Companies have had an extraordinary winning streak, that has lasted longer than most expected,"

To put things in perspective, here's how corporate profits looked in earlier decades (from this document, pdf):

And here's the recent evolution for all G7 countries.

(these graphs are not directly comparable to each other or to the numbers quoted in the article above, but they give an idea of the trends...)

:: ::

We are a point where corporate profits are no longer a worry, but the economy is not doing well, because stagnant incomes for workers cause either a lack of domestic demand (in countries, like Germany, that are not splurging on debt) or an explosion of debt (like in the USA or even France):

Household debt as a percentage of disposable personal income. Etats-Unis = USA, Royaume-Uni = UK

And growing inequality:

median income is the level at which half earn more, and half earn more. A big difference between average and median is a sign of strong inequality.

As the above graph shows, not only corporates (and their shareholders) are grabbing a larger part of the pie, but the top earners are capturing a growing fraction of the wages still being paid out.

:: ::

So two intermediate goals have been very obviously reached:

  • corporate profits are strong
  • "talent" is properly remunerated, through extremely high remunerations when "needed"

When will that translate into economic prosperity for all, as claimed by the neo-liberals?

Can we now focus economic policy on that side of the equation - distributing to all the prosperity that has supposedly been created? And no, making people borrow the illusion of prosperity via cheap consumer debt is NOT the solution?

Or can we now say it all out loud: trickle down economics, better known as "voodoo economics", is a scam, which should be called by its proper name, "trickle up" or, "the rich taking from the poor".

Who will stand for the (untrickled) downtrodden?

Tags: economy, inequality, economic policy, corporations, trickle down, voodoo economics, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 207 comments

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    •  There is no trickle down. (24+ / 0-)

      Let's start calling it "dammed up".

      You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. - Lee Iacocca

      by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:26:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The corporatists in this country (30+ / 0-)

        have gamed nearly every institution in this country--be it political, social, or financial--in order to generate a profit for themslves. Their single minded focus on profit to the exclusion of all else is one of the root causes of many of this country's problems--and to heck with the suffering they inflict on people.

        •  Total Scam for the ultra-rich (13+ / 0-)

          And now they are working to continue their domination of the government with the "Marriage Amendment" to the US Constitution.  Just one more show for their faithful and idiotic "base" of evangelical religious types.

          The complete control of the government would not be possible if just the rich voted for the Bushies and the bi-partisan elites, they need the religious wingers to deliver their tax cuts for millionaires and other greedy laws.

          Just watch as 18 billionaire families try to stamp out the inheritance tax, that will allow them to save $72 billion to pass on to Paris Hilton and other "worthy" richies.

          •  there aren't enough wingers (7+ / 0-)

            to flip the balance.

            As in-we never did figure out where
            Bush's 8 million "extra" votes came from
            in 2004.

            James

            •  Diebold did it for Bush (8+ / 0-)

              No recount, "Direct Recording Electronic", DRE machines don't even keep their secrets, they are programmed to erase all evidence of their election-day bias for Bush.  Easy to do, I personally could write the code, and easy to cover your tracks when the code is never revealed to anyone outside of Diebold.

              Vote by absentee ballot, at least there is a chance that your vote will count, and it is recorded on a piece of paper- the low tech, recountable solution.

              •  2-3 Lines in Lotus Macros (7+ / 0-)

                could do it. I've worked with secretaries that wrote more complicated spreadsheet and word processing macros.

                We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

                by Gooserock on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:27:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly, why else would Diebold hide their code? (8+ / 0-)

                  I agree, and was not trying to claim any great programming expertise.  This is very easy to do, and the Diebold felons were probably clever enough to just insert the cheating code in the assembly language for their machines.

                  Of course the latest is that the Diebold terminals will look for new code at power up, so all you have to do is have the cheating code on a flash memory stick when you cycle the power.

                  Then after the election, just cycle the power again with a clean copy of the firmware ready to load, completely overwriting the earlier, Bushian code, and "Bush wins again" are the headlines.  What a deal.

            •  Allegedly the churches turned out for Bush (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              retLT, splashy, Lashe

              ...by eight million more than they'd turned out for him in 2000. Or that's what the newspapers briefly speculated, in curious synchrony, before quickly losing all interest in the subject by about 9 November. (funny how they stayed in a panic all through November and December, about the possibility that Gore might have really won in 2000)

              Both the thought that it's false and the truth is Diebold, and the thought that it's true and it really was an eight million voter surge in the radical religious right, are equally scary.

              But here's the thing. More Americans voted for Al Gore in 2000 than had ever voted for any candidate for President before, beating Ronald Reagan's record. In 2004 John Kerry, fueled by voter outrage and a Bush presidency that was hovering around the 50.0% approval mark all through 2004, beat Al Gore's record... only to be wiped off the electoral map by a completely unexpected eight million extra Republican voters who had not existed the last time around.

              Those eight million made George W. Bush easily the most voted-for presidential candidate ever, beating both Gore and Kerry and the sainted Ronald Reagan. But shortly after electing him, they disappeared, and Bush's approval rating fell below the 50%, never to return. (contrast this with the "failed" presidency of the "unpopular" Bill Clinton, who rarely fell below 60% in his worst days as president).

              So the question to ask is, does that look like a president who can inspire real people to appear out of the woodwork in just enough numbers to beat a popular Democratic candidate, and if it does, where are the people he is supposed to have inspired now?

              I expect the next honest presidential election to show a mysterious massive drop in total voter participation, and for the US media to twitter about apathetic voters. You heard it here first.

        •  personally i dont know why people are optimistic (7+ / 0-)

          about 2006 or 2008 elections. there is plenty of evidence for vote manipulation in the last 2 elections, corporations are getting stronger, democratic leadership does not seem to wish to step up to the plate and fight back hard... i can go on. but the idea is that the status quo, imho , does not seem to be about to chnage. rather i think things are going to get alot worse before they get better...

          Welcome to the empire. life is not a dress rehearsal My record label: www.11mileswestofnowhere.com

          by johnfire on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:09:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ohio was Florida in 04 (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            splashy, Gegner
            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Great maps.

            Great analysis.

            BTW-On Corps collusion and why they must die-

            The Media's Bloody Footprints by Mike Whitney (courtesy-www.williambowles.info)

            Eventually, we will have to seriously address the media's culpability in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi non-combatants (My Edit-And stolen Elections). Conspiracy to facilitate mass murder is not protected under the 1st amendment any more than shouting "fire" in a crowded building. The media played a crucial role in deliberately misleading the country into a war of aggression and, subsequently, aiding and abetting the vast incidents of war crimes (my edit-And redux with Iran). For that they will have to be held accountable.
             
              The persistent slaughter in Iraq is not just the work of right wing fanatics and neocons, but of the information-managers who pumped their lies through the public air-waves and made the war a fati accompli. They've played a central role in decimating Iraqi society and putting America on the fast-track to ruin.
              
               The bloody footprints from Haditha lead straight to the corporate headquarters at Time Warner and FOX News. They are every bit as guilty as anyone who served in Kilo Company.

            James
                 

            •  This graph of mine (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              splashy, Lashe

              Shows the way that Ropublican-voting precincts in Ohio were supplied with many more machines than Democratic-voting precincts. No long discouraging lines for the Republicans!

              The gap in the middle is because my data set was just the top fifty and bottom fifty precincts in terms of machines per voter. I would be happy to redo the chart if someone has the full data set.

          •  They Don't Need to Manipulate Now (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            corvo, tonyahky, Lashe, means are the ends

            The purging now being done by the voter I.D. laws is going to cut Democrats 10% or so in some places.

            The previous sentence does not exist.

            We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

            by Gooserock on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:28:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  foresight (5+ / 0-)

            This is a side effect of playing a game of trying to narrowly win a handful of states rather than investing in party infrastructure.  Rather than competing in 50 states they've been competing in a dozen, and then only 2 or 3 come election day.  By battling out in this fashion, they set themselves up for such rigging.

            Imagine if Florida or Ohio have Democratic governors and Sec States in 2000 and 2004.  It radically shifts the nature of the election battle.  The Democrats have to be competitive at the state level as well as the federal because it's the only way to insure some fairness in the electoral process.  

            Also, the Dems might benefit from running a candidate who is... good?  I can't count the number of people I know who can't stand Bush but didn't trust Kerry to run the country.  Bush won the popular vote quite handily, so even if we can suspect some vote tampering and such in those races, the truth is that Bush had the majority of popular support (god help us all).

            ---
            Some of my best friends are wrong

            by sterno on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:11:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  They will if people don't work to change that (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Del C

            There are only two choices. Put on blinders, ignore vote fraud, and be part of the problem, or deal with the reality that our vote is badly in need of rescue, roll up the sleeves, and dig in.

      •  Never could figure why (14+ / 0-)

        "trickle down" was supposed to be a positive development.  A trickle of water out of a faucet usually signals that there's trouble ahead.  And when food trickles down an old man's beard, you can be pretty sure that what intelligence there was is now gone.
        Crumbs from the table even seems preferable.

        Anyway, releasing our monetary systems from the strictures of limited precious metals was a very egalitarian development.  It negated the old argument that "there's just not enough money" to do all the things (trades and transactions) we want to do.  But, egalitarianism is not a good thing for people who are into accumulating power.  So, various strategies to counteract the flood of paper money had to be invented, accounting for the explosion of the financial sectors of most economies and not necessarily increased production of assets to improve human well-being.

        How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

        by hannah on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:06:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's really 'P*ssing Down' on the poor (18+ / 0-)

        That's the only trickle I see.

        -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power"

        by dopper0189 on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:11:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My sig says it... (13+ / 0-)

        I forget when I changed my sig to this but it seems appropriate to this diary :).  In the end, trick down economics has never worked.  At no point in history has prosperity come by giving the wealthy more money and letting it "trickle down".  It only happens when through altruism or enlightened self interst, the wealthy recognize the value in a little distribution (see Ford and paying his employees enough to buy his cars).  

        Time and time again throughout history we can see this play out.  The wealthy get wealthier and wealthier and get this sense of entitlement, that is, that they are somehow above everybody else.  Thye lose that sense that they are even human anymore, instead some sort of divine creation with no dependency on anybody else.  Then invariably they get a big smack down when the revolution comes.  This is not an efficient way of doing things (besides the fact that it tends to be brutally violent).

        Imagine pre-revolutionary france if the royalty started paying all of the people who worked at the palace, etc, substantial amounts of money.  These people then go out into the community and spend the money they earned and bring up business outside the palace.  This chain of spending brings up the whole economy and we have no revolution.  But no, they didn't recognize the value of that and so they let the peasants eat cake, and that was the end of that.

        ---
        Some of my best friends are wrong

        by sterno on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:05:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  'Trickle down' is the biggest lie... (7+ / 0-)

        ...that the Reagan Faithful still (stupidly) believe.

        Already over-rich Republicans are too fucking greedy to let ANY of their pennies "trickle down."

        Evil bastards.

      •  Trickle Down, Bell Bottom pants, and Disco Music (3+ / 0-)

        I'm not sure what the reference to this is. Even Kudlow doesn't mention trickle down anymore. Economists will defend the home ownership society, and point to the rise in equity, which incidentally isn't counted in personal savings. The rising asset values of homes, is part of the tide which lifts corporate profits as well. Attacking corporate profits simultaneously denigrates the pension funds of workers who are shareholders in these companies. Cut corporate profits and put your pension fund assets at risk.
        The solution which I see happening, is to reform the corporation from within, CEO salaries, better safety and envirnomental regulations, and dividends rather than share price appreciation. Taxes are one solution, and higher property taxes would be equally as fair as higher corporate taxes, since the same economic policy drives both.
        This economic policy will probably create a bust that will drag everyone down, corporations as well. Of course the corporations are stacking up cash, while the individuals are stacking up on debt. In the final outcome they will own us lock stock and credit card. however rampant inflation actually helps debt holders, and hurts cash holders. so think about that one, while Bernanke keeps rates well below their real rate of inflation. Mogambo Guru said this week that if Bernanke was raising rates for the same reason that Paul Volcker raised rates in the 1970's, and at the equivalent level, rates would be around 17% right now. So want to know where you are being screwed? Or to parody an old Village People tune, FFF-O-M-C, (sung to YMCA)

        "Everything is chrome in the future..." Sponge Bob Square Pants

        by agent double o soul on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:50:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The only thing that trickles down (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        means are the ends

        are the bribes and payoffs.

        The prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad; For the multitude of thy iniquity And the great hatred...

        by Tirge Caps on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 09:38:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Something's trickling down all right (5+ / 0-)

        The bastiches are pissing on our heads and trying to convince us it's raining.

      •  Even back in the Reagan years... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Lashe

        ...I always thought "trickle down" was equivalent to getting "pissed on".  Always made sense to me what they were wanting to do.

        "You can't depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus."
        . . . . . . . . . Mark Twain

        by Land of Enchantment on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 10:51:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A rising tide can't lift all boats... (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Del C, ZAPatty, mataliandy, splashy, Lashe

        ...if the boats aren't in the same ocean. The corporations have built themselves a luxury lagoon, and a rising tide their lifts all THEIR boats, leaving the rest of the boats in the world untouched.

        Jerome - great headline. Great way to frame the debate in a simple question. Kudos, and thanks.

      •  Bob Filner (CA 51) once said, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Lashe

        and I'm paraphrasing here, that he, also is a believer in the "bubble up" theory of economic growth, he's afraid that while those in power still are there, we'll have to put up with being trickled on for a while.

    •  when I saw Markos in SF last Friday (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jerome a Paris, JenThinks

      I showed him the oil poster and said "Jerome's gonna like this!" I look forward to presenting you with one there, it really packs in a lot of educational footnoted context for any energy-related discussion.

    •  As a small business owner (27+ / 0-)

      I can tell you that part of the problem is the same issue facing the middle class in the US -- the little guys are subsidizing the big guys. If you own or work for a company of 50 or less employees, regulation costs nearly twice what it costs per employee for the big boys. You don't get the tax breaks they get. My business has only been open for six months, and I've had the labor department in checking for violations of child labor laws and illegals. I can't hide those behaviors like a big company can. I can't afford health insurance.

      The conservative line is that entrepreneurship is good; it's the future. Stats show it's where jobs are created. But they stack the deck against us. In my view, it's just more of the same hogwash used on the Christian right, fiscal conservatives, and the folks out there who earn $100k. The repugs talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk.

      I'm lucky, my business is on the verge of being profitable. I may actually start getting paid to work instead of paying to work. But that's no thanks to the tax policies and regulations that favor big business. It's not trickleing down to me.

      For me and thousands of other small business owners, serious talk about health care reform, tax reform, and regulation reform that levels the playing field so that I don't have to subsidize big companies with deep pockets will win votes.

      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

      by zic on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:01:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why does corporate welfare go to (15+ / 0-)

        the wealthiest of corporations? To me, it seems like it would be better spent on small businesses--the ones who will create jobs and boost local economies, rather than rape them, the way Super Wal-marts tend to do when they move into a small town.

        For all the griping you here conservatives do about paying out "public assistance" to the poor of this country, in the end it's the Wal-marts and McDonald's who benefit the most--they can get away with paying minimum wage, partly because the poor can sign up for food stamps and medicaid--which acts as a kind of "wage subsidy" for these workers that taxpayers pay for--and in turn fattens the ultra-rich's bottom lines.

        We need to force these kinds of companies to pay their employees a fair wage, insteading of exploiting the system. They are the real "welfare queens", not the poor.

        •  it goes to corporations because they have the (14+ / 0-)

          political clout to see to it that it is funneled that way.
          simple as that

          Welcome to the empire. life is not a dress rehearsal My record label: www.11mileswestofnowhere.com

          by johnfire on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:11:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Single biggest issues (5+ / 0-)

          are health care and unfair tax burdens; enron got the tax cuts and I'm paying to make up the difference.

          There's also a lot of lobbying reform to look at; the insurance industry is so set on eliminatng risk that they cripple businesses like mine. It's quite a food chain, too. I own an internet cafe. We needed a fire-suppressioin hood over our stove to open. We make muffins, soups, etc. We have the kind of equipment a fry shop would need. It costs about $10,000; but having it doesn't lower our insurance. And there's great benefit to the metal workers who build and install the things. I've got to sell an awful lot of soup before I'll ever see a profit.

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

          by zic on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:01:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is kind of timely in Southern Illinois, (5+ / 0-)

          Maytag just announced they are closing the Herrin plant and laying off something like 1500 in an area still trying to stuggle to recover from the loss of thousands of coal mining jobs.   This article appeared in the local Southern Illinoisianthis morning discussing when Galesburg Illinois lost it's maytag plant a few years ago.  A few interesting quotes from the article (be sure to read the whole thing)

          The state is paying $192,500 to Maytag for the shipping dock - on top of $192,500 spent the last fiscal year for the improvements.

          Within the last 10 years, Herrin Maytag has received nearly $4 million from the state, the majority of which went to employee-training programs.

          Federal funds have also been given to the company. A $1.65 million federal grant was given to Herrin Maytag in March 2003 for a Stotlar Street expansion that would widen and improve the street next to the facility.

          Think of all those jobs we're sav.... never mind.

          Mangieri said Maytag's departure from Galesburg coincided with the return of real estate taxes.

          "At the end of 10 years, when that real estate that had the taxes abated would have come back on the roll, they decided to close the facility and move out," Mangieri said. "In October 2002, they announced the closure of their Galesburg facility by 2004 - the exact year in which the tax incentives fell off and would have had to start paying their property taxes like any business or resident in Knox County."

          I guess that's what we get for taxing business huh??  If we just didn't tax them this would never happen, right??? right???? right?????

          Now why would they move??

          The state of Ohio, which will absorb the work done from the Herrin Maytag facility, offered nearly $30 million in loans, grants and tax breaks to Whirlpool

          Good thing we're not giving it to those welfare queesns, you know the ones with seven kids by seven different guys who drive around in cadallacs with minks stoles.

          bullshit, pure unadulaterated bullshit.

      •  Absolutely (9+ / 0-)

        Same situation here.

        And it's important to note that all big business started as small business at some point.  Many mergers and restucturings later it's hard to see or remember that, but as older big business stagnates and dies off there needs to be a healthy pool of small business to provide fresh ideas and products.  Big business hurts themselves in the long run by starving small businesses.  Unfortunately, that kind of short-sightedness is typical of what they have done since the 70s.

        The problem is that big business takes more than it contributes.

        And anyone who thinks that the Small Business Administration is doing much to change this has never dealt with them.  If you want to open a franchise or retail store they are OK, but if you truly have a new idea they are of no help at all.

        Live Free or Die-words to live by

        by ForFreedom on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:23:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  amen (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zic, tonyahky

        and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings....

        by farmerchuck on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:00:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's Why My Biz is Moving to Canada (5+ / 0-)

        Being a sole proprietor, I as the entire company can't risk the American health care system. Taxes be damned.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:31:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No Trickling down here either (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zic, Gegner, Lashe, means are the ends

        Matter of fact, it's trickling up, up up and away from me!

        I write my Republican Members of Congress often to give them information I to counteract the line of bull they are attempting to feed us! this diary is chock full of new info I can use to torpedo them again!

        I hope some of you will also write, call or fax you Members of Congress no matter if they are Repubs or Dems--let them know! We should be shouting all of this from our roof tops--"I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more!"

        Contact yours NOW!

        http://www.visi.com/...

        I suppose that's why we have this Gay Marriage Amendment right now--diversion, distraction--division--pumping up the old Republican base to Keep this FAILED Utopian Capatilism alive???

        Down with it I say!

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:14:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Congrats. If you reach a profit soon you're (6+ / 1-)

        way ahead of most new business' from what I've read.  And congrats on blaming the right people for your difficulties.  My boss just doesn't get it.  Even though I've been working on him for years.  As a successful small business owner he thinks the Repubs are for him.  Of course since he's been successful for years and invested in Atl before it was cool, he got a big fat tax break from Bush.  Still, I think the recent health insurance developments are weakening his mistaken resolve.

        "Yes dear. Conspiracy theories really do come true." (tuck, tuck)

        by tribalecho on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:37:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Trickle down? No...How about 'trickle out'? (0+ / 0-)

      There has been no trickle down. It's an abstraction with no substance. There is evidence, however, of "trickle-out". Corporations seem to be rushing to invest money and jobs in economies other than our own that have cheap labor. Globalization is destroying our country and our economy. The corporate x's left hand doesn't know what the corporate y's right hand is doing. I'm just wondering what these corporations are going to do when they discover that Americans can no longer afford to buy those goods that were manufactured offshore. We are quickly moving to a 2-class system -- the rich and the poor. Bush is doing everything he can to fashion a country after the pre-FDR era -- large and growing lower class, no middle class and no safety nets.

  •  I'm rec'ing this one for two (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hhex65, lizah, tonyahky

    reasons - the title and it's Jerome. I know you're not supposed to do that but I'll bet there are others who feel the same.

    See you at YKos!! I wasn't going to be able to make it but I'm returning home on Wed from Singapore and heading up to LV on Fri.

    You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. - Lee Iacocca

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:24:09 AM PDT

  •  I've never understand how anyone can believe (16+ / 0-)

    trickle down economics.  I am sure that those who advocate it know what the effects are.  They are just trying to get the most money for themselves.

    If you actually want to improve the economy make sure the large group of people who will actually spend money have it and that will improve the overall economy in a healthy way.  But they are not interested in that they want more profit for themselves.

    if (Kos) doesn't like what goes on here, he can start his own damn website! - Major Danby

    by Green Zombie on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:28:33 AM PDT

  •  Until they learn the word 'enough' (2+ / 0-)

    it will always trickle up.  

    "You can't be neutral on a moving train." - Howard Zinn

    by bigchin on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:29:32 AM PDT

  •  Where did... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tonyahky

    ...the chocolate diary go?  Ummm, not complaining about this one, mind you.  I was just readying a Nestles rant about breast-milk substitutes.

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by BarbinMD on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:30:23 AM PDT

  •  a flawed system (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tasch, tonyahky, CTLiberal

    I'm sure the companies and corporations know it can't last forever, that the practice of squeezing every last drop and more out of the poorer consumers and mostof the middle class will stop when everyone realises they've borrowed away their livelihoods.

    The trouble is, the corporates know this is an unsustainable and unethical system. But their profits are so huge they're increasing rahter than decreasing the amount they do this kind of thing, to maximise the money they get before it collapses. The problem is, it could cause a global depression. If debts catch up with a large percentage of the people who have borrowed equity on their home, the bottom could fall out of most markets.

    follow my world without oil! http://miawithoutoil.livejournal.com

    by darrkespur on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:31:20 AM PDT

    •  its going to last (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Marek, Jerome a Paris, splashy, corvo, tonyahky

      until there is a financial train wreck in this country.
      that is the only thing that will change it. something like the great depression. maybe the bottom falls out of the housing market. or maybe the world starts trading oil in euros not dollars. but its going to take a major shock to change things

      Welcome to the empire. life is not a dress rehearsal My record label: www.11mileswestofnowhere.com

      by johnfire on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:12:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My two cents... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sphealey, JenThinks, Lashe, ignatz uk

    ...this is a difficult one to figure out, since corporations are now global, while national economic data is not.

    What we are seeing is a rise in the profits of corporations, and particularly global corporations, combined with the stagnation or fall of domestic wages.    But in emerging markets, wages are increasing.  Wages are increasing in India, China, Thailand, Singapore, et al, while they are decreasing in the United States and Western Europe.  Meanwhile, it is outsourcing and emerging markets which are creating most of those increased profits, and not the tax incentives or economic policy of the US government.  In fact, as those incentives and policies continue to increase American debt, both public and private (the combined public and private American debt now fully eclipses the US GDP, which debunks the popular right-wing argument that the national debt does not matter since it is less than the GDP), the benefits of outsourcing actually diminish.

    As a general rule, the Federal government has little control of the overall health of the economy.  President Clinton gained the benefits of the "It's the economy, stupid" voters, but the robust economy during his tenure was largely the result of emerging technologies and the expanded marketplace of the end of the Cold War.  President Bush's economic difficulties are largely due to outside factors as well: the burst technology bubble, the downsizing of American corporations due to technological advances, and the same expanded marketplace.  Another good general rule is that planned economies usually fail, and centrally planned economies fail worse than others.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 05:36:42 AM PDT

    •  I disagree on both counts! (12+ / 0-)

      1a. There is some element of truth in that wages in a number of places are going up, but there are still deep pockets of ultra cheap labor available for the unskilled work - enough anyway to keep pressure for a very long time on wages elsewhere.

      1bis. Meanwhile, the lack of coordination of governments against the corporations pushes all of them in a race to the bottom in terms of taxes and regulations imposed on corporations. Even if tax rates don't move down, what they are paid on gets smaller each time. Meanwhile, less mobile labor gets taxed more and more, worsening the income problem of wage earners.

      1. As to economic policy, I also disagree. Maybe Clinton cannot take the credit for the 90s, but Bush can certainly get the blame for the current mess: the tax cuts to the rich and the corporations, the out of control spending on war and contractors that benefits a few corporations while starving the budget of the money required for basic services to the population at home, all made possible and encouraged by Greenspan's reckless cheap money policies and the accompanying bubbles and global imbalances. That bill is going to be paid by future generations for a long time.
      •  Well... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cambridgemac

        ...let me preface this by saying this is a very interesting dialogue.

        1a) This is undeniably true.  The counter to this is that this also has a myriad of positive effects.  Yes, there is a tremendous availibility of 'cheap labor'.  But part of that includes the fact that as cheap as that labor is, it is still a huge increase of the income for the populations of those nations.  This increase in income has several effects: it builds middle classes in nations which have none, it creates revenue for poor nations to invest in education and infrastructure, it increases global demand for goods and services which expands the world market, and it makes wars less likely by creating a more interconnected and cosmopolitan world.  Those are all huge positives for humanity, even if they are detractors to American workers.

        1b) This I'm not fully sure I understand.  If you have the opportunity, could you rephrase?

        1. I fully agree that there are huge drawbacks to the policies of the Bush administration.  I mentioned the most blatant of them in my post - the huge rise in the debt of the US and the devaluation of the dollar.  The military policies have been disasterous economically as well, largely because the billions spent have been squandered through inefficiency and failure.  That being said, my point is that the benefits the Bush administration have introduced for investors have had little overall effect on the economy.  The failure of trickle-down economics is that creating incentives for investment does not corrolate to the success of those investments.  In point of fact, any benefits of a theoretical increase in overall investment will be mitigated by the corresponding effect of concealing failure, meaning that such policies will prevent corporations with poor business models from failing, or more accurately will slow down such failures, meaning that more money will be wasted attempting to prevent the failures of bad companies.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:00:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  true (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cambridgemac, Jay Elias
          1. This is absolutely true, and inded a good thing, but the scale on which it is happening is really disruptive. It's one thing for Japan or Korea to catch up with us through mercantilist policies - they benefited hugely at (relatively) little cost to us. China, with its 1.2 billion people cannot be expected to not have an effect on us as it grows like it does now. It is having a massive impact on all commodity markets in addition to the labor markets - where the impact is happening on a large scale. Also, labor competition would be okay if transport costs were not absurdly subsidised through cheap energy.

          1b. What I mean is that capital is more mobile than labor, so capital is now setting its conditions to come to, or stay in any country, and these conditions usually are: no taxation, no regulations, no obligations. and, oh, please make sure that you provide good highways for our trucks, good education and healthcare for our workers, and efficient courts when we need to fight it out. But no rights for workers.

          2.Well, I think the sheer amount of cheap money has allowed to not invest: why bother taking risks in making and selling stuff when you can just print money on the asset markets? why pay workers when they can consume by borrowing from their future? The bubble - and the accompanying waste and/or corporate corruption - has very real long term cosnequences.

          •  See, we agree on lots! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jerome a Paris
            1. It most certainly is disruptive.  Changes in technology, and the globalizing effects that those changes always have, are universally disruptive.  And China is bound to wreak massive changes on the market, as well as India (which has had almost an equal effect on the world economy, but a less talked about effect, largely because India is not nearly as repressive as China).  I would add that you'll get no argument from me (or anyone with libertarian inclinations) on the harmful economic effects of subsidy.

            1b) Also true.  But two points: first, the proper solution to this, in my opinion, is not making capital less mobile but making labor more so.  I've made the argument here in a diary post that it is in the interest of the United States to return to a policy of open immigration.  Second, the effects of globalization ameliorate the lack of worker's rights.  As the middle class grows in places like India and China, the rights of workers increase correspondingly, mimicking the process that occurred in the US and Western Europe in the industrial age.  We will see and are seeing that process occur naturally in developing economies already.  In the end, the playing field will level out, due to the finite number of developing nations in the world.  And I have a very hard time arguing against the emergence of the middle class in places like Indonesia.

            1. I agree with you entirely on the issue of debt, both public and private.  I'm just not sure that this financial irresponsibility is something that can be laid mainly at the doorstep of trickle-down economics.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:03:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The problem with trickle-down economics though... (0+ / 0-)

              ...is that it is the phrase constantly evoked to avoid discussing the other issues. That's why Jerome's question puts a brilliant, easy to understand spin on it, that paves the way to the conversations such as you and Jerome just had.

              •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

                ....I think that the fact that Jerome is really smart, and I'm a contrarian who likes to argue with people who are smarter than me led to the conversation.  My impression was that no one really talks about trickle-down economics anymore.  The new spin from the right that I hear is that the tax cuts benefit the wealthy disproportionately because the poor don't pay taxes.  This is demonstrably untrue, but is a hard argument to debunk when Democratic leaders don't take a stand against other forms of taxation besides the income tax.  As long as the tax debate remains focused on income taxes, rather than sales, payroll, and sin taxes, the tax system in this country will be horribly regressive.

                You want to make taxes in this country less regressive?  Eliminate the taxes on alcohol and cigarettes.

                The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 12:50:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Presidential power (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sphealey

          does affect the economy, in the budgets the President sends to Congress and bills sent to Congress.  Clinton deserves credit for the state of the economy in the 90s because he did not interefere with it, but could have.  I can think of dozens af ways offhand that he could have changed the way the Internet developed for the worse, with little notice from the voters.  And that's just one small example.

          I'm not on average a Clinton fan-I think he was the right person at the right time, but the country has moved past that time now.  But he did cut deficits and the debt without hurting the middle class.

          While I agree with your statement about the causes of failure of trickle-down, I would add that another problem is the lack of management of the returns on those investments.  Supply-siders always seem to think that any returns get immediately reinvested, but I do not believe that happens at anywhere near the rate they expect, or with the freedom they would ascribe to the reinvestment.

          Live Free or Die-words to live by

          by ForFreedom on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 06:46:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

            Non-interference was certainly a fantastic strong point during the Clinton administration.  One can question whether or not this was the intent of President Clinton; his administration certainly did attempt to interfere in the economy, through the increase of the gas tax, to the attempt at national health care, and the Kyoto Accord at the end of his second term.  It is important to bear in mind that for six of his eight years, Pres. Clinton had a bitterly divided government, and his policy-making was hampered by the impeachment proceedings as well.  But as a general rule, I always believe that the less the government tries to do, the better off people are.

            Reinvestment is usually quite high, actually.  People in the United States very rarely sit on their money.  And a lot of the (very limited) gains in certain areas of the economy over the last six years are due to reinvestment.  The 'housing boom' that we have experienced is a big part of that - over 1/4 of the houses sold in the last year for example are second homes.  The problem is that the gains of investment have little impact on our national economic health.  First of all, the explosion in the market for luxury items benefits only a small sector of the economy.  The fourfold increase in the fine art market, for example, isn't something that benefits working class Americans.  Second, the increase in per worker productivity vastly outstrips demand.  Say, for example, that the demand for goods doubles, and productivity increased by a factor of eight.  That means that even though demand has increased, the labor needed to fill that demand is one quarter of its previous total.

            The problems we have to deal with are more due to globalization (which is inevitable, so we had better start coming up with ways to be more competitive in the global marketplace) and to vast increases in health care costs.  As for the solutions to the spiraling problems of health care in this country, you're far better off reading the diaries of experts like nyceve than listening to anything I'd have to say.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 07:45:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Definitely agree on healthcare (0+ / 0-)

              and globalization.

              I think globalization is one of the areas where US business has failed miserably.  Not from the sense of short-term profiteering, they have been doing OK with that, but with long term planning.

              I do read nyceve on a regular basis.  Some days my own fights with the healthcare industry get too depressing for me to read her diaries, though.  Minor fight right now: We sent in a 90-day script 2 weeks ago, but the mailorder place did not fill it until 2 days ago, with the consequence that I had to pay out of pocket full price for a week's worth of meds to cover until the mailorder arrives.  Try to play by the rules, get screwed.  It's only small $, but the priciple of it makes me angry.  OK, done venting.

              Live Free or Die-words to live by

              by ForFreedom on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 09:22:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry for your troubles (0+ / 0-)

                And they are ones that I can sympathize with.  About a year ago, I joined a union, and I took their health plan, which is paid for in my dues, but much lousier than the plan I used to pay for.  Even with my union plan, I end up paying a full 50% of the cost of the plan I was paying for out of pocket in copays.  Meanwhile, we're just starting to experience a national doctor shortage (to go with our nurse shortage) and that is with a full 25% of our doctors being immigrants.

                On globalization, American businesses have done quite well, actually.  Long term as well as short term, American corporations are going to derive huge benefits from outsourcing to India in particular (India, and not China, is the real exploding economy).  As I mentioned upthread, this is a good thing for humanity and the world even though it puts the crunch on American workers.  The problem is one of adaptation.  Simply put, we are not adapting particularly well to the global market.  Part of that is inevitable; globalization is not something which can be slowed or stopped, and it is definitely going to harm our economy in many ways.  Part of that is due to major problems both with organized labor in this country as well as with onerous state interference in union activity.  My union (IATSE) is an excellent example.  We are hampered with union leadership that does a lousy job for us, as well as with anti-union laws ironically named "Right-to-work" in many states.

                Let's be honest: globalization will hurt many Americans, and even more than it already has.  But let's also keep in mind that this is a good thing for the world.  The world will be a better place when the US does not represent 25% of the world economy.  Globalization is an anti-imperialist force, and that is a good thing as well.  Globalization is also another excellent reason to refund to the American taxpayer tens of billions spent each year in wasteful and counterproductive foreign aid.  In addition, we should bear in mind that the detrimental affects of globalization to Americans will be hugely increased if we do not begin to sharply decrease our public and private debt.  The continued fall of the dollar will result in massive inflation as globalization continues.  In fact, if we do not start to ameliorate our debt soon, we could live to see another Great Depression in this country, and one we will have little ability to escape through domestic policy.  Our national debt made little economic sense before, but it is close to a national suicide pact in the era of the global economy.

                The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                by Jay Elias on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 09:54:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]