Daily Kos

Kossack Exclusive from John Dean

Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:48:43 PM PDT

John Dean was particularly helpful to me as I worked to usher Glenn Greenwald's How Would a Patriot Act? into the world. I asked him for a blurb. To give one, he said, he would have to fact-check the entire book before lending his name. Ahh...integrity! Grateful for his time and the eventual blurb, I offered to read his new book, Conservatives Without Conscience[http://www.amazon.com/...], and told him that, if I found it worthy, I'd want to help spread word about the book to the blogs.

I find it worthy--and then some. I'll be posting on FireDogLake a full review, but wanted Kossacks to have a first read of a short Q&A that Mr. Dean put together especially for DailyKos. I'll also pose some follow-up questions to Mr. Dean for a post here later this week, so if you've got a question, please send it on.

Questions and Answers from John Dean, author of
Conservatives Without Conscience

After reading the recent postings on Daily Kos I prepared the following questions and responses to shed further light on what I am doing and why I am doing it.  

Q:   What do you hope to accomplish by writing CWC?

A:   It is long past time to start using the "A" word - authoritarianism - when talking about contemporary American conservatism.  I started working on CWC in 1994, looking for explanations of what had happened to conservatism.  Why were these people so nasty, mean-spirited, self-righteous and aggressive?  Why were conservative leaders so manipulative?  Why were the followers so compliant and unquestioning?  After 9/11 I intensified my researching but I was still looking for answers in a lot of wrong places before I discovered some fifty years of social science research into authoritarianism.  This information was an epiphany for me.  It explained contemporary conservatism, not in the words of social scientists, rather in the words of authoritarian conservatives themselves.  For these studies are based on answers to literally hundreds of thousands of questions over an extended period.

Q:   Where did you find the information on authoritarianism?

A:   Unfortunately, the material is found in proprietary data bases, professional journals, and books, and almost none of it is written for the general readers.  I spent considerable time working my way through this material, with the assistance of the leading researcher in the field, Bob Altemeyer of the University of Manitoba.  Another researcher who assisted me (sending me general readings in the field) was John Jost of New York University.  His study of conservatism, which is found here with further material here [http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/gjonas.pdf and here [http://www.wam.umd.edu/....], sent many conservatives ballistic, even though most never bothered to read it rather reacted to a press release.  (A very authoritarian reaction approach, by the way.)  A note of caution:  Google searches of the subject of "authoritarianism" will produce the works of John Jay, a New Zealander and self-proclaimed "Burkean" conservative (whatever that is) - not to mention a prolific blogger.  Suffice it to say that I examined Jay's work closely, and went over it with other experts, and concluded that nothing he writes in his reviews, critiques and articles provided any reason to not rely, as I have, on Altemeyer's work (as well as that of the many other researchers whose work confirms Altemeyer's empirical studies.)

Q:  Why do people submit to authoritarian leaders?

A:  The authoritarian personality is a product of nature and nurture.  Consistent data shows that fear and discomfort with ambiguity are factors for those who submit to authority, according to information they repeatedly provide to researchers.  Accordingly, post-9/11 research has shown that fear of terrorism has resulted in significant numbers of people moving to the ranks of authoritarian conservatism (and the Republican Party).  This fact, needless to say, has not escaped the attention of the Bush/Cheney White House, which has increased its fear-mongering during every election since 9/11 - and it has worked to their advantage.

Q:  How are conservatives (or more appropriately, authoritarian conservatives) reacting to CWC?

A:  Not well, which is precisely what I anticipated.  These are people who are extremely self-righteous, with a very low tolerance for criticism.  As Kos no doubt discovered with Crashing the Gate, often the most vocal critics do not have a clue what is actually in the book.

Q:  Is authoritarianism dangerous?

A:  Indeed it is, for it is proto-fascist in nature.   I did a great deal of reading and study of fascism as well, and spoke with scholars and political scientists who have studied it for decades.  Most of this study has looked at whether it could happen here.  There is no question it could happen here, and that terrorists could trigger it.   I am not certain which is more frightening: the next escalated terror attack that will inevitably come to the United States or the way authoritarian conservatives might deal with its aftermath.  That is why we need to publicly discuss the authoritarianism that now dominates conservatism.

Q:  Why are you posting this on Daily Kos?

A:  Because I am a daily reader of this blog and, with no wish to be patronizing, I truly believe the netroots can make a difference.  

Tags: John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience, Glenn Greenwald, How Would A Patriot Act, authoritarianism, proto-fascism, politics, Recommended, books, netroots, interview (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 200 comments

  •  Jen (52+ / 0-)

    Thanks so much for all you do!!!

    I'm really slow about alot of this legal stuff, but Glenn is my hero. He makes things so much easier to understand, and I usually hit his blog 3-4 times a day.

    Once again- THANK YOU!!

    Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado- Menander

    by paddykraska on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:46:49 PM PDT

  •  thanks (12+ / 0-)

    But I can't help wondering about Mr Dean's stated surprise over authoritarianism (I saw his interviews on Countdown, etc, too) -- given that it's such a prominent theme in What's the Matter with Kansas, along with other essays throughout the progressive sphere.  Of course, "scholarly" vs anecdotal reports are always useful to help make the point.  

    And also, the more folks shouting about this dangerous trend is fantastic, and I hope CWC is a great seller (I already have my copy, of course...)

    regards,

  •  A few books Dean should know of (32+ / 0-)

    1. Stanley Milgram, "Obedience to Authority", the best psychology book I've ever seen, about the famous "Tenth Level" shock experiments.
    1. Stanford Prison Experiment web site http://prisonexp.org -- ok it's not a book.
    1. Adorno, The Authoritarian Personality -- I'm sure he's seen this
    1. Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism -- I haven't read this yet, just happened to look at it a few days ago, I still want to read it but since I haven't, all I can say is that it looks interesting.

    Hawkish on impeachment.

    by clyde on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:50:30 PM PDT

    •  he cites the milgram study (10+ / 0-)

      It's a really well researched book -- a good read, but sort of academic, with meticulous citing.

      •  The Milgram Study (7+ / 0-)

        is a thoroughly chilling description of how easily we can all fall into the authoritatian trap.

        We have to be ever vigilant for both of both our polical systems and ourselves.

        Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

        by boadicea on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:27:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  For anyone who hasn't read Milgram, (18+ / 0-)

          here is a link with the basic info. Worth a read.

          The Milgram experiment (Obedience to Authority Study

          I hope people find this illuminating.

          •  One of the classics (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            leolabeth, means are the ends

            More people should know about it. Thanks for posting the link.

            White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

            by nolalily on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:34:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But Milgram's study, and (18+ / 0-)

              Zimbardo, showed that it wasn't about personality, it was about situation.  I wrote a diary on that stuff a while ago.

              This Dean information is on top of situations; it's interacting with the climate of fear that we're already in.

              And if you think that this sort of thing is generally interesting, I'd love to do a series on things like this.

              It sort of jibes with my day job, anyway.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:38:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Go for it. (7+ / 0-)

                I'd find it fascinating and would read every word!

                White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

                by nolalily on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:39:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Okay, I will. (12+ / 0-)

                  I like writing about this stuff, and it helps me hone my thinking.  If in all that I can also help people better understand what's what about human behavior (esp political behavior), all the better!

                  Je suis inondé de déesses

                  by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:40:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  To be fair, you would also need to (7+ / 0-)

                    write about Dogmatism research.

                    For the benefit of those other than Marc, who I'll bet already knows this, there is, in fact, Authoritarianism on the Left as well, and the fight over that was in part what all but killed off Authoritarianism research within the personality and social psychology field for many years.  However, leftist Authoritarians tend to be along the lines of Stalinists; they are simply not well-represented in the U.S. political system (except maybe for some left-wing populists.)  Nevertheless, to be even-handed, much of the field was recast as Dogmatism so it was clear that both sides of the political divide could share this personality orientation.

                    Anyway, that has to be part of the mix.

                    If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

                    ~ Umberto Eco

                    by Major Danby on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:07:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You would be a good one to write some (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Shockwave, means are the ends

                      behavior diaries, too.  IIRC, you wrote one before.

                      I wasn't thinking about writing about personality stuff in particular; I don't know much about it (and tend to think that it's overrated as a predictor of behavior), but rather a more general series on some interesting and perhaps relevant stuff in psychology (much like the Haditha diary).

                      You should do it too, though.

                      Je suis inondé de déesses

                      by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:19:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm waiting for my sabbatical (3+ / 0-)

                        after the elections.  Until then I can't give more than 30 minutes thought to any diary.

                        If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

                        ~ Umberto Eco

                        by Major Danby on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:41:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Alice Miller's work is also (5+ / 0-)

                        Of significant note here. She wrote about the parenting habits of the Germans and stated that these authoritarian methods helped create a society that was trained to follow someone like Hitler.
                        Now when you look at the childhood of someone like James Dobson, you can see why he is the way he is. He,in psychological terms, identified with the abuser.
                        Another researcher into authoritarian types is Daniel Jay Sonkin. He has studied attachment theory and how one can predict who will become an abuser and the attachement type that is likely to become a victim.

                        Every Smack is a Humiliation-- A Manifesto by Alice Miller

                        Few insights gained in the last 20 years are so securely established as the realization that what we do to children when they are small, good things and bad things, will later form a part of their behavioral repertoire. Battered children will batter others, punished children act punitively, children lied to become liars themselves.

                        In the short term, corporal punishment may produce obedience. But it is a fact documented by research that in the long term the results are inability to learn, violence and rage, bullying, cruelty, inability to feel another's pain, especially that of one's own children, even drug addiction and suicide, unless there are enlightened or at least helping witnesses on hand to prevent that development.

                        When laws prohibiting corporal punishment were launched in 1977 in Sweden, 70% of the citizens were against it. In the latest survey, 20 years later the figure has dropped to 10%, most of them fundamentalists. These statistics show that the mentality of the Swedish population has changed radically in the course of a mere 20 years. A destructive tradition, upheld and acted upon for thousands of years, has been done away with thanks to this legislation. Where is the rest of the world?

                        The claim that mild punishments (slaps or smacks) have no detrimental effect is still widespread because we got this message very early from our parents who had taken it over from their own parents. Unfortunately, the main damage it causes is precisely the broad dissemination of this conviction. The result of which is that each successive generation is subjected to the tragic effects of so called physical "correction."

                        Fundamentalists propagate beating children because they disavow their own painful experiences and are unaware of the fact that they are using children as scapegoats. It is imperative for us to launch this kind of preventive legislation in the major countries of Europe and the USA before the fundamentalists gain any further control of the political arena. It is designed to have a protective and informative function for parents. It does not set out to incriminate anyone.

                        Sanctions deriving from it could take the form of parents being obligated to internalize information on the consequences of corporal punishment, in much the same way as drivers of motor vehicles are required by state law to be familiar with the highway code. In the case of our children, the point at issue is not only the welfare of individual families-- the vital interests of society as a whole are at stake.

                        Physical cruelty and emotional humiliation not only leave their marks on children, they also inflict a disastrous imprint of the future of our society. Information on the effects of the "well-meant smack" should therefore be part and parcel of courses for expectant mothers and of counseling for parents.

                        Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other dictators were exposed to severe physical mistreatment in childhood and refused to face up to the fact later. Instead of seeing and feeling what had happened to them, they avenged themselves vicariously by killing millions of people. And millions of others helped them to do so. If the legislation we are advocating had existed the time, those millions would simply have refused to perpetrate acts of cruelty at the command of crazed political leaders.

                        •  Compare pop psych (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          mariva

                          "Smart Love" by Piefer and Piefer and Dobson's books and that about sums up the difference.  "Smart Love" focuses on raising children who internalize their own boundaries and self-discipline and who are comfortable with their own decisions.  
                          "Smart Love" described the kids Dobson would raise as having a need for external discipline because they've not learned to trust their own instincts and must rely on others to keep them in line.  Taking it further, these are the people who need laws to dictate moral behavior.

                          White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

                          by nolalily on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:09:22 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  What killed off 'authoritarian research'? (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      artebella, coloradobl

                      You wrote:

                      ...there is, in fact, Authoritarianism on the Left as well, and the fight over that was in part what all but killed off Authoritarianism research within the personality and social psychology field for many years.

                      As a psychological researcher, who has also taught history and systems of psychology, I would like to get some documentation for your assertions on the portion I've italicized.

                      I think you've set up a straw man in so-called leftist authoritarianism. The psychologists in the field of authoritarian research were hardly Stalinists, though it's true that some refused to sign the loyalty oaths at U.S. universities in the 1950s and 1960s (like Erik Erikson and Nevitt Sanford). Theodor Adorno was a member of the Frankfurt School. Others were non-Marxist entirely (Daniel Levinson).

                      The biologization of psychiatry and psychology and the decline of the psychoanalytic school in acadamia is what brought about the decline in more political psychological research, IMHO.

                      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

                      by Valtin on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:44:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Huh? (4+ / 0-)

                        I'm not saying that any of those people you name -- Adorno, Sanford, etc., and you left out Frenkel-Brunswik -- were Stalinists.  I don't see how that's even possibly a fair reading of what I wrote.

                        Rather, the field (at that time) came to accept that the hallmarks of authoritarianism were half of a broader story that did not apply merely to conservatives, but rather to political extremists generally.  In other words, the thinking is that there is a personality trait called Dogmatism, and that what had come to be called Authoritarianism was simply the right-wing flavor of Dogmatism.  My sense (and I don't think that this is an original insight) is that divorcing the personality trait from one particular side, and saying instead that it is a function of political extremism in any direction, took a lot of the sizzle (sizzle that you see in the reaction to Dean's book) out of the topic.  Go find some old personality texts from the mid-80s.

                        Be clear on what I'm not saying here.  I'm not saying that the Dogmatism theorists were right and that Authoritarianism theory was incomplete.  Nor am I saying that Authoritarianism was right or wrong -- though as a social psychologist by training my instinct would be (to comically overstate) that you give me your infant and the right environment in which you raise him and I'll give you either Paul Wellstone or Ralph Reed.  What I am saying is that a proper history of Authoritarianism, as Marc in KS was contemplating, would have to address Dogmatism research as well.  I have no idea where it stands right now, but it did exist, was taken very seriously at one time, and is going to be an obvious retort to any renascent version of Authoriarianism.  That I can promise you.

                        If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

                        ~ Umberto Eco

                        by Major Danby on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:47:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  The Milgram study could never be done today (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          boadicea

          The APA has strict ethics rules regarding the kind of research studies that can be done.  The rules were adopted after numerous psychologists questioned the propriety of Milgram's study, and others.  Under these rules, Milgram would never have been able to get approval for his study.  On the one hand, it is fortunate that Milgram's study pre-dated the ethics rules, because it provides a great deal of insight into the responses of ordinary people to authority, even when the orders are blatantly wrong.  On the other hand, I have read that some of Milgram's subjects took a long time to recover emotionally from the experiments.

    •  Spot on clyde. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      paddykraska, Rogneid

      Those are three great choices.

      If you have got a boss, you need a union. Read www.purpleocean.org/blog/

      by BartBoris on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:54:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He cites 1, 3 and 4 of these sources n/t (10+ / 0-)

      -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

      by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:58:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He does (9+ / 0-)

      He cites them.

      Unlike many political writers, Dean is no academic slouch.  All of his stuff, be it books or articles, is always meticulously researched and referenced.  

      Dean also writes a regular column for FINDLAW that is accessible free.  Read his stuff here.

    •  The Adorno and Arendt are good (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      matt2525, subtropolis

      for discussing the personality aspects, but the other two are more about situations than anything.

      Of the two, the greater fear is situations.  Far and away, the data show that circumstances are more likely to influence behavior than personality characteristics.

      Je suis inondé de déesses

      by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:39:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the prison study (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        leolabeth

        showed that the situation had its effect only on some of the people--about 50%.  That is very significant, I think.

        Hawkish on impeachment.

        by clyde on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:05:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You could be right, here. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          x, peraspera, matt2525, grayslady

          I've not read that one in a long time; I've read the Milgram more recently.  I'm a bad scholar.

          But even Milgram only got 2/3 of the people to go all the way to the end of the scale, so that's not perfect either.

          The point usually made by the social psychologists is that situations are in general far better predictors of behavior than personality.

          I'm not minimizing the Dean book (I haven't read it yet, and from what I've heard, it's good and I intend to have the library get it); I'm just saying that focusing on the 23% with the authoritarian personality type misses a whole huge bag of people who don't fit that profile, but will nonetheless succumb to the wiles of Karl Rove and the situations he's established.

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:15:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'd bet my left nut (0+ / 0-)

          That if you recapitulated (as far as possible) the Milgram experiment with chimps or monkeys you would get identical results.  We are, afterall, just apes with the same social hierarchical structurings and genetics.

          We are "just animals" afterall.  We need our laws and cultures to be very well structured to control what would otherwise be very destructive and self-defeating groupings and interactions.

          No one, no species, can escape its evolutionary roots.

          "Events are in the saddle and ride mankind." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

          by Terminus Est on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:00:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, but we like to think (0+ / 0-)

            we're "better" than that.

            •  That's the operative phrase (0+ / 0-)

              We like to think we're better than that.  Clearly, we aren't.  History, inside and outside the laboratory setting shows this.

              I don't believe we are better than that as individuals.  We have to count on our culture and laws to overcome our baser nature.  That's the point of them in the first place.  Unfortunately, it requires constant general vigilance by a significant minority, or better, the majority, to keep the rules in play and punish transgressions.

              With recent torture issues coming from our own government (in the USA) and its instruments, as well as a loud chorus calling for punishment (torture or murder or imprisonment) of those who disagree, our society may well go into a Milgram experiment writ large...like Germany's did post WWI (and Russia's and China's and Cambodia's, etc, etc, did).

              "Events are in the saddle and ride mankind." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

              by Terminus Est on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 06:53:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  He knows (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      coloradobl

      Each of your citations is covered in CwC.  (I just finished it, last night and my SO is starting it as I type.)

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:04:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Classic study: The Authoritarian Personality (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wader, coloradobl, kurt

      This was not a work by Theodor Adorno, but was a joint research/writing work by Adorno, along with Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sanford, published in 1950. Subtitled, Studies in Prejudice, and sponsored by the American Jewish Committee, it became a controversial classic.

      The data for their study came from life studies and other work done at UC Berkeley's Institute of Human Development, where Erik Erikson also worked (though formally, the research was done as a joint undertaking of the Berkeley Public Opinion Study and the Institute of Social Research, also known as the Frankfurt School). Some of the original psychoanalytic research technique had been utilized by the OSS in making assessments of Nazis for intelligence work. The intellectual grandfather of the work was Henry Murray and the latter's Psychological Lab at Harvard in the 1930s.

      Sanford himself wrote in his 1985 essay, "What have we learned about Personality?" (published in A Century of Psychology as Science, APA Press):

      The authors of The Authoritarian Personality included rigidity, intolerance of ambiguity, and other cognitive variables within the authoriatarian syndrome, but they consistently saw psychodynamic factors as determining.

      Frenkel-Brunswik's in-depth interviews for the study showed that highly prejudiced people were conformist, given to cliches, overly moralistic, and intolerant of individual differences.

      Sanford summarized The Authoritarian Personality, saying the authors found:

      ...among other things, that ethnic perucudice goes with idealization of parents, which goes with punitiveness toward nonconformists, which goes with rigid conception of sex roles, which goes with intolerance of ambiguity, and so on; and the3y saw in this covariance a deeply based structure of personality.... If it makes sense ot sepak of an authoritarian culture or social character, as I believe it does, the common culture of the United Sataes is not a very good example of it...

      Sanford was always an optimist, in my view, but I wonder what he would say in 2006? I know one of his students very well (now a well-known author in his field), and his pessimism belies the hopes of Sanford that America would not become an authoritarian culture. Of course, it was to achieve the latter, and to understand what had happened in Germany, that the authors of The Authoritarian Personality did their research and wrote up their results. Their work was well-received, also long-hated by some for its conclusions. See the link in previous sentence for some of the contemporary animus still directed toward this work.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:37:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As someone who took Psych 101 in the fall of 1971 (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      I am well-acquainted with all of these.

      The corporate media are destroying progressive Democrats. The Clintons are destroying the Democratic Party.

      by lecsmith on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:36:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another book to check out (0+ / 0-)

      Eric Hoffer's The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements.  Although it was written in 1951, it is one of the most insightful books about who joins mass movements, what causes them to "unify" and what makes them either cataclysmic or helpful.  Long after Hoffer wrote his book, the Khmer Rouge was a text book example of the phenomena he described.

      And, as a person who has truly worried about the signs of the mass movement cult I see in the rightwing, I am deeply grateful for what John Dean has done to expose the depth of the problem.  Thank you.

      "The less satisfaction we derive from being ourselves, the greater is our desire to be like others." - Eric Hoffer

      by Mary on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:04:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Highly Recommended (13+ / 0-)

    I can't wait until this book hits the shelves.  It could be the beginning of not just a massive reframing, a la Jeffrey Feldman, but a backlash against the right.

    Could, I say.  If people start paying attention to it.

    Yes, that's a hint: recommend this diary.

  •  It is a remarkable and engrossing book (27+ / 0-)

    I bought it two days ago and can't put it down.  Having grown up with a religious fundamentalist mother and family, I grew to understand what was going on over many years.  In some respects, I feel ahead of the game here.  But the great thing about this book is that what I've known for years from my first hand experience is backed up with research.  And this research is explained so well in John Dean's book that it is bound to make people think.  It deserves as wide an audience as we here at DKos can possibly give it.  After I read it, I'm going to give it to my mother.  She still has a conscience, barely, and I am counting on it to make her stop and think about who she is picking for her authority figures.  

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:56:53 PM PDT

  •  Fascinating (16+ / 0-)

    John Dean reads dailykos daily.  I wonder how he selects what he reads.  Does he focus on the front-page posts? Does he dip into the Recommended Diaries?  How about the Recent Diaries list?

    I do plan on purchasing his book but I had already decided to do that prior to reading this Q&A.

    Thanks for following up on our behalf, Jennix.


    •  Doesn't surprise me that he reads us (12+ / 0-)

      After having read the chapter on conservatism and his personal beliefs, I understand very well why he might occasionally check us out.  We are not who they say we are but you would only know that from experience.  

      -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

      by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:05:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doesn't surprise me either. (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zzyzx, Terri, tikkun, walkshills, paddykraska

      He strikes me as the kind of person who wants to understand, rather than demonize, those whose beliefs are different from his.  Which is a big part of what makes him out of place in today's Republican Party.

      ----------------
      The trouble with the world is that the stupid are always cocksure and the intelligent are always filled with doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

      by gpm on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:34:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is the difference between the authoritarian (9+ / 0-)

        followers and the 77%. The RWA followers would be afraid to read Daily Kos, because what we write here would cause "fear and discomfort with ambiguity." The truth, as reported here would challenge their core beliefs. They are too weak to withstand the emotional pain of disillusionment that would ensue. Their anger and spewing hatred is a defense, armoring them from feeling deep emotional pain (the nurture part?), and replacing the hard task of thinking.

        I'll be interested to learn what the nurture part of the equation is, in producing RWAs. As I recall, no connection was found between punitive child-rearing techniques and RWA. So it must be that most of what produces this kind of person is somehow genetically determined, and must, therefore, have had some degree of competitive survival advantage at one time in our past. Perhaps the RWA followers are the equivalent of the submissive members of a pack. I remember reading here a while back that the Republican propaganda speaks to the 'reptilian brain' so I'd guess that this mindset is a relic from before our higher cognitive abilities were fully developed in our frontal lobe.

        •  What a perfect description. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zzyzx, matt n nyc

          I'm guessing that you also have friends or family members who fit the bill.  It is painful, painful I say, to watch them refuse to trust their close relations because doing so runs counter to what the party tells them to believe.

          ----------------
          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are always cocksure and the intelligent are always filled with doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

          by gpm on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:22:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Dean no longer a republican (0+ / 0-)

        He states in the book that he's an Independent.

    •  Damn lurkers! ;7) (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      justme, 3goldens

      No!  Just kidding, everyone!  Don't hate me!

      If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

      ~ Umberto Eco

      by Major Danby on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:08:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the links to those sources! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    paddykraska
  •  John (15+ / 0-)

    Stop lurking!  Sign up! Post!  This is the future!

    "Success is a level of violence where the people feel comfortable about living their daily lives." --George W Bush, May 2, 2007

    by mspicata on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:14:21 PM PDT

  •  BTW, Mr. Dean, I think there is a genetic factor (14+ / 0-)

    If I made a map of my family tree, I see on my mother's family and her maternal family a large number of members with anxiety disorders.  Agoraphobia, panic disorders, intense shyness.  Out of 5 siblings, 3 of them have turned to fundamentalist religions in their adulthood and my mother managed to convert her own mother.  In my own immediate family, along with my mother, my sister and brother have become fundamentalist wingnuts in their adulthood.  Some of this may have to do with proximity to one another and the area of the country where they live (Central PA) but I can tell you for certain that no matter how long or closely I lived with my mother and her family and her religion, it all fell on deaf ears with me.  I am certain that I only got one of the alleles.  

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:14:54 PM PDT

    •  to be fair (9+ / 0-)

      non-authoritarian types can also be plagued with agoraphobia, panic and anxiety disorders and shyness. I'm one of them. Unipolar, too.

      I don't mean to play nanny here, but there is so much societal prejudice about mental illness and mental health that I get a little uncomfortable when things like this are used for broad generalizations.

      •  Don't misunderstand me (4+ / 0-)

        I am not saying that all people with anxiety disorders will become authoritarians.  As has been stated previously, there is a certain environmental component to the authoritarian personality type.  
        As for me, I certainly had the environmental aspect shoved down my throat so given the large number of extremely fearful people in my family, I am not wrong to assume that there is a genetic component to it.  

        -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

        by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:34:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  genetic component (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          TiaRachel, goldberry

          there's certainly a genetic link with certain mental illnesses like depression, etc. IANAPsychologist, but I think environment can play a big part in behavioral disorders.

          I'd also have to give due weight to the environment in the area of the country we're talking about too. For a long time, it was pretty well insulated from much diversity. Going back there for my first visit in years--should be interesting.

      •  Well maybe though it is important to discuss how (13+ / 0-)

        people who face these challenges are manipulated and victimized by authoritarian leaders.  I see this as a real issue.  I will never ever forgive George Bush for a speech he made just days after 9/11 making very bleak predictions about our country which frightened my infirmed grandmother so much that she called me crying and in a panic.  The planes still weren't flying and she was 1,000 miles away and all I could do was try to take her back to FDR and tell her the president was an idiot.  He took advantage of her fears and vulnerablity.

        •  agree with you about manipulation (4+ / 0-)

          There was a choice made as to whether people would be helped to heal or whether they would be made more afraid and it was the latter.

        •  Weird story (7+ / 0-)

          So, the last time I went camping with my family was in 2003.  We were all sitting around the campfire, it was dark and my mom said something like, "We have to finalize our contingency plan."  She an my siblings immediately started talking about what they were going to do in case of a nuclear terrorist attack, where they were going to meet, their phone chain, their emergency supplies, the Cipro they would need, the alternative meeting site and camping gear.  
          I started to laugh.  I thought they were joking.  
          They got really quiet and stared at me with their serious faces and big-wide eyes.  
          They were very much in earnest.  They were planning for the end of civilization and they kept citing 9/11, 9/11, 9/11.  
          It was then that I knew they were goners to me.  

          -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

          by goldberry on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:58:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yikes! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            inclusiveheart

            My best advice is to revel in your non-authoritarianness and sense of perspective.

            I knew a very well-educated couple back there who were absolutely convinced that midnight on 12/31/99 was going to be very very bad. They took classes beforehand about edible plants, etc. They aren't fundies by any means.

            Most of my best friends back there weren't originally from the area.

          •  Jumping Lizards and wee frogs! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            blueoasis

            That is absolutely creepy and exceedingly sad.  That just shows you why the GOPers keep pushing the fear buttons.  There are probably many more people out there who reacted similarly due to all the demagoguery/propaganda the Bush Regime has inundated us with.

          •  preparednessssss... (6+ / 0-)

            ...isn't really a sin, y'know.  Even if you don't live in hurricane country, it's not a bad idea to have an emergncy stash, and some fore thought as to how you would get somewhere if you had to because things got really bad where you are.

            Especially given that BushCo has made it clear we're on our own if disaster strikes too hard.  The transpo net that feeds most of us, especially you urban folks, is fairly fragile; fuel shortage is a distinct possibility if things heat up further in the ME; power could be knocked out over a large region by the increasing extremes of weather behavior fueled by global warming.

            How long could you go on the food and water in your house right now?

            don't always believe what you think...

            by claude on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:43:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What he said (7+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              claude, zzyzx, Ducktape, OLinda, splashy, 3goldens, kurt
              I play dead once every 3 years for the emergency preparedness people. We give ourselves a C-,D+ each time. Radios never work, directions can't be given, everyone wants to know where their children are at that very moment, cooler heads are far between, and the rest.

              Here we prepare for earthquakes, although we should also prepare for haz mat if Lawrence Livermore ever blows in an east wind like we get every September.

              Mormons are supposed to keep a year of supplies on hand (I doubt that includes water), maybe people should think about keeping at least a week's worth of supplies?

              Please consider volunteering for the emergency preparedness team at least once - an eye opener that is practically a civic duty.

              We can't have acquittals, we've got to have convictions." Pentagon Chief Counsel Haynes on military tribrunals in Gitmo.

              by sailmaker on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:56:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  There's planning and then there's PLANNING (0+ / 0-)

              I happen to agree that it is always a good idea to be prepared.  (I was a girl scout once too)  And there was a Kossack who's name I can't remember who wrote a series on that very subject about a year ago.  I still have the link on my home computer and look at it every now and then.  My major threats are flooding, storms, power failures, proximity to NYC and an Army depot.  I know what to do and where to go.  
              That is quite different from my family who is fearful that they are about to be nuked tomorrow and are preparing for utter chaos.  My mother calls me in a tearful panic every time Bush has a news conference on Bird Flu.  She is convinced we are all about to die.  It is not a matter of if but when and she thinks it is imminent.  No amount of reassurance that a number of very improbable steps have to happen before we get a lethal, virulent strain of bird flu that can spread person to person has any effect on her state of mind.  
              Do you see the difference?  
              There is rational and irrational fear.  My family can not distinguish between the two.  All fears get equal weight.  They are more likely to be soft targets of terrorism, like an attack on a Walmart, but they are convinced they are going to be nuked into oblivion and will have to fend for themselves.  Not just lose a city here or there but literally have to fend for themselves with a breakdown in civilization as we know it.  THAT is the kind of talk I hear from them since Bush became the #1 terrorist in America.  

              -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

              by goldberry on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:22:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I knew we were in trouble in 2004 (5+ / 0-)

            when a colleague came back from a visit to a small southern Ohio city (few thousand residents). She described a conversation with a middle-aged lady who was afraid of terrorists attacking her.  

            I have no idea how to talk to people who are so divorced from a realistic assessment of risk. Or who have such delusions of grandeur (Wow, I'm so important that terrorists are going to trek out to the wilds of Appalachia to bomb my little one stop sign town.)

            Happy the man and happy he alone--he who can call today his own ... John Dryden

            by ohiolibrarian on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:04:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  She bought what she was sold. (0+ / 0-)

              My Grandmother was reasonably easy in the grand scheme of things to convince that Bush was an idiot.  She was a devout Democrat.  But what pissed me off about her fearful reaction to Bush's statement was that she believed in the Office of the President of the United States.  She instinctively trusted our President (no matter which party he was from) when he talked about national security and the state of the union.  I think it is safe to say that probably 80% of the people on this blog at one time believed what Bush told them because he was our president.  Logic defies on risk assessment - I agree - but when you instinctively place your trust in a source - even when it is illogical it can still scare you.

              The only reason why I wasn't a part of the vast majority of the people who believed Bush's rhetoric was that I was raised largely in DC and I never ever trusted the guy so when he didn't make sense to me I figured he was lying.  

            •  That reminds me of a college experience (0+ / 0-)

              Back in 1983 or 1984, "The Day After" was broadcast on national TV -- I think ABC, but I can't remember exactly.  I was a freshman at Carleton College (where Paul Wellstone taught before running for the U.S. Senate) and had just blown in from the Montana plains.  So many of my classmates were extremely upset by the concept of a nuclear strike, but their experiences were colored by fear.  I grew up within shouting distance of easily a dozen Minute Man III missle silos; I recall distinctly military convoys carrying missles through my hometown, as the Air Force shuffled MM III missles from silo to silo to keep the Soviets from destroying our second strike capability.  Nuclear war was a reality to me, but it was also something that I did not fear; it became integrated in day-to-day life.

              9/11, too has had the same effect on many.  I am now living near Philadelphia, which was roughly equidistant to each of the attacks.  I am puzzled about why people in Nebraska and Kansas and Utah are so afraid of a terrorost attack when people living in the shadow of 9/11 aren't.  Same thing with the cold war -- I grew up in a targeted area, yet feared nuclear war less than my classmates from New York and California.

    •  p.s. lived in Central PA til I was 29 too n/t (0+ / 0-)

    •  Glad you escaped the nature and the nurture of (0+ / 0-)

      the fundies.  You are most fortunate, indeed.

    •  Genetic link (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ducktape, splashy

      I see this in my own family.  My mother's side of the family is almost entirely Republican, and the propportion of fundamentalists is astonishing--probably upward of 50 percent--though my grandparents were simple church-going Swedish immigrants. Of my mother's siblings, those who were not born again were nasty, manipulative and controlling.  The cousins--again, even those whose parents were not fundamentalist--tend toward evangelical religiosity.  In contrast, the children and grandchildren of my Norwegian paternal grandparents, though similar to my mother's family in socio-economic status, are utterly delightful, bright, funny, highly cooperative and mostly Democrat. A single family reunion afternoon last year with my mother's side of the family was excrutiating for my siblings and me.  This year's three-day event on the other side was a delight.  

      Genetics.

  •  A separate note (7+ / 0-)

    To thank you for your anal