Daily Kos

Stem-Cell Veto, Snowflake kids, and Christian Eugenics

Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:53:38 PM PDT

Ok, so why were there kids as the backdrop setting for Bush's remarks following his veto of the stem cell research bill?

Because these kids are not merely cute props, they are emblematic of, and the end product of one particular corner of the so-called 'culture of life' that Bush and his allies are attempting to remake America into.

These kids, in evangelical adoption parlance, are referred to as "snowflake children", so named after the "Snowflake Embryo Adoption" program of Nightlight Christian Adoptions.

For Bush, thousands of couples' frozen embryos are not their individual genetic material to make their own decisions about. No, the cryogenically preserved embryos, to Bush, constitute a unique national resource. One which must be appropriately handled and appropriated, a national resource in a zero sum game tug of war between stem cell research and thousands of potential snowflake children reparented into couples deemed appropriately Christian.

This afternoon the White House staged an event following the Bush veto of legislation supporting stem-cell research. According to a congratulatory press release issued by Operation Rescue West, Bush was surrounded by "snowflake children."

What's a snowflake kid you may ask?

In IVF, after a couple run through a full course of fertilizing, freezing and trying to implant their own frozen embryos, they may at the end of the process have 'spare embryos' they do not want to give birth to and raise.

There are several possibilities of what to do with these 'spares', one of which recently has been mislabeled "embryo adoption," by another, genetically unrelated to the embryo, couple. Far from adoption, this is actually, more aptly referred to as a process of tranferrence. The children that are the product of this process of embryo transfer to non-biological parents have been nicknamed 'snowflakes.'

These resultant kids are primarily the products of the Christian adoption industry, which sometimes includes in thier most casual materials, requirements such as a "constructive, wholesome, spiritual home environment" of the prospective non-biological couple - all code for a household of the fully-committed Christian kind.

Bush, some churches, and many in the Christian adoption industry consider this not merely the individual goals and aspirations of couples involved in this process, but a matter of national policy, the desired outcome, and the only destination of what they perceive as America's embryo surplus. That's why the children were such a critically important piece of the set design today. No, they're not just cute, no, they're not merely individual decisions of how to deal with the surplus in individual families' reproductive lives. No, these are the living embodiments of the opposite end of the spectrum of possibilities from stem cell research. And thus, they believe, it's a matter of national policy; because there are only but so many cryogenically preserved embryos, and this is what they and Bush want done with them.

Today, Bush opened the curtain a bit on their expectations:

"Each of these children was adopted while still an embryo and has been blessed with the chance to grow -- to grow up in a loving family.

These boys and girls are not spare parts.

They remind us of what is lost when embryos are destroyed in the name of research. The remind us that we all begin our lives as a small collection of cells. And they remind us that in our zeal for new treatments and cures, America must never abandon our fundamental morals."

There's plenty of coded language in there for his evangelical base to pick up on. But the visual with the snowflake kids was key.

These children represent the Bush administration's policy agenda when it comes to the use of remaining cryogenically preserved embryos.

America's storage facilities maintaining these embryos are seen by Bush, key religious figures in his life, and the christian adoption industry, as a national resource, one they have big plans for,  potentially running right over the individual wishes of the couples that created them in the first place.

Think of it as a limited set of options.

  • Some remaining cryogenically preserved embryos will not survive the freezing and/or thawing process.
  • Others will be intentionally disposed of.
  • Still others could be transfered to and implanted in another woman who is prescreened by the Christian agencies. Of those attempts, some will succeed, others will fail.
  • Or, the embryos can be donated for research purposes: stem cell research.

That's it: 4 possibilities.

Legislatively or legally, this administration and its allies are working to close down all possibilities other than natural unviability and (Christian) "adoption" / transferrence.

Why? All of this takes place in a climate of extreme scarcity of the desirable and top-dollar healthy white infants available for adoption. The domestic adoption industry has undergone massive contraction post-availability of legaized abortion and more readily available forms of contraception. To be crass (I'm an adoptee, I'm allowed) in short, demand is very high, and supply is exceptionally low.

Embryo transfer, despite often being done with remaining preserved embryos after a couple has undergone perhaps multiple rounds of IVF treatments, represent a vast untapped potential of 'supply' for the adoption industry, the Christian "adoption" industry in particular. Not merely supply, but high quality supply that will move in the market, as the supply of embryos was originally created by wealthy, healthy and likely white couples.

Think this is some rare possibility? It's already becoming more and more commonplace, and the resultant children are becoming regulars up on Capital Hill and in the White House. It's a vast untapped market of infertile, and desperate couples and possibly as many as nearly 400,000 embryos held in cryo-preservation here in the US.

The Bush administration, many churches, and agencies in the christian adoption industry want to build what is essentially a funnel: a multipronged narrowing of the options, down to the one, whenever possible. The one option, that is, that leads to christian movement growth, by eugenically doling out embryos as rewards to "godly families" and withholding them from "unfit families", Queers for example.

Through the courts, the pro-natalists are desperately seeking to establish personhood and rights be conveyed upon these cryogenically preserved embryos. For example, see cases such as this one.

This agenda is also being pushed via "wrongful death" suits against IVF clinics, alleging that destruction of the embryos amounts to the clinics and storage facilities "killing". This is but an extention of the prexisting false frame they've worked on for decades now, of "abortion as murder", and clinic workers in the abortion context as "murderers".

Other legal fronts involve the confiscation of personal biological material. Under what circumstances are you not considered the owner of your own genetic material and under what premises can it be taken from you? Cases along these lines are going to ultimately set precidents reguarding the frozen embryos.

Restrictions on the destruction of embryos is another front. There are many efforts underway working to make destruction impossible. Louisiana, for example has created a legal status equivalent to personhood for the material and made destruction illegal.

See this SF Gate article which includes the key quote:

"It bestows on the embryos certain rights," said Dr. Steven Taylor, co-director of the Fertility Institute of New Orleans, a private IVF clinic. "They cannot be experimented on. They cannot be destroyed. If we freeze them and thaw them, it has to be with the intent of implanting them in a woman's uterus."

I've talked about how they view this as zero sum game, every embryo used in research is one less to transfer out. The key  though, can be found in the legal realm.

In  Nightlight Christian Adoptions, et al. v. Thompson, Nightlight (the Snowflakers) challenged the NIH guidelines for the public funding for research involving stem cells, i.e. they argued against the destruction of cryogenically preserved embroyonic material, and funding for stem cell research. Why? They stood to gain by getting access to that material. Destruction cuts down their supply. It's all zero sum game;  every embryo destroyed is one less that Nightlight can attempt to gestitate within the context of a family deemed to be properly Christian.

Finally there's the fourth possibility, stem cell research, which is where many couples would like to pass their unused embryos on to, for many reasons.

Many simply do not want to be forced down the narrow passage of being unable to destroy the surplus embryos and are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of passing them on to another couple, the women of whom will ideally in turn bear biological brothers and sisters to the genetic couple's IVF kids. Or if the genetic couple never had a successful childbirth, the idea of passing on their genetic material which they themselves were unsuccessful in ultilizing may be a horrifying prospect. Other couples would rather the embryos go to help others through research, in hopes if eventually fighting a variety of diseases.

But Bush has refused federal funding for any research other than that only on embryonic stem cell lines from embryos which had already been destroyed.

Privately funded research continues, but that's under constant legislative attack, state by state.

So of course there were snowflake props, errrr kids, there as the set design today. The day when couples who turned to IVF, with all other options blocked, be forced to turn over excess embryos, for the purpose of creating children for other couples, specifically for Christians and Christian movement growth, is dead ahead, straight down the current trajectory.

Nope, sorry the "Handmaid's Tale" has got nothing on real life these days.

Tags: Embryos, adoption, veto, George W. Bush, Rescued, Eugenics, Christian (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 33 comments

  •  Well, whatever (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    va dare

    but the bearable wombs are the scarce resources. If they want to have someone else's biological kid implanted in them, so much the better.

    You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

    by peeder on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:56:54 PM PDT

  •  Thankyou so much for this information (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bronte17, fiddlingnero

    though scary to read. "Snowflake kids", sounds more like steppford wives to me. We adopted our three grandchildren, if we had not fought to keep them safe, our ex-daughter-in-law would have killed them. It makes me shudder to think how many of these "christian" parents will physically or mentally abuse these children.Bush seems very proud to be able to show these children off for the cameras, why can't he show just a small bit of compassion for one of our adopted sons, who has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy,and desperately needs stem cell research to help him be as happy as these children are. Thanks again for this information, I just reread it and it still is scary to me.

    *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

    by bonesy on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:08:27 PM PDT

  •  More racist conceit... (0+ / 0-)

    I wonder what proportion of the "Snowflake" Brigade is also supporting restrictive immigration policies, and how many subscribe to the claim that we can't afford the 2-300,000 "excess" people that our current policies are allegedly allowing in.

  •  Think of this in regards to Homosexual marriage (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sagra, shirah, Elise, willers

    If homosexuals are granted the right to marry (and gain all the rights therein), the next logical step would be allowing homosexuals to adopt.

    The Christian Right's precious Snowflakes might end up in a loving, happy home and turn into <gasp> liberals.

    Al Qaeda No. 2: "We don't kill innocents." GW Bush: "We don't torture." How tragic that both statements bring the same snort of disbelief....

    by PatsBard on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:05:11 PM PDT

  •  These people make me want to do bad things. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah, willers

    They are SO racist and homophobic and ignorant.

    How many foster children are out there right now?? Living in abusive homes? This is just ignorant. And heartless...I suppose I should expect just that from Repugs though...

    •  'Adoption' without the 'mess', birthparents, etc (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, Elise, mspicata

      This new form of transference/"adoption" is incredibly appealing to those who don't want to have to deal with pesky aspects of traditional adoption like "biological parents".

      Also, as assumedly this transfer is taking place at the behest of and assumedly with the permission of the biological parents, consent will be ASSUMED. Unfortunately, that 'consent' may have been obtained under a whole new set of pressure points- aspects like ongoing cost of maintaining the cryogenicly stored material. Few couples, after they have completed thier course of IVF treatments (and possible children resultant therefrom) want to have to go on and on indefinitely having to pay for the remaining material's storage.

      Something as simple as not having an up to date address and contact information on file with the storage facility could be enough to begin to trigger a release of the material to an "Adoption agency" if the couple had previously signed forms to that effect.

      In this transferance, the embryo itself is implanted directly into the woman who is doing the "adopting". This means she herself gets to give birth- thus 'validating' her in a way 'normal adoption' never will.

      It also take the often feared 'spectre' of a 'birthmother' out of the picture. The woman who adoptes gave birth, and thus unlike traditional adoption, in embryo "adoption" she herself becomes the "birthmother". It also allows her to experience the act of giving birth- something other traditional adoptive women who have not given birth have not experienced.

      So yeah, the kids will absolutely continue to languish in foster care- because that form of traditional adoption will never be able to offer these women what they are seeking- giving birth, to a newborn, with no "birthmother" lingering in the shadows.

      It's an ubber form of "adoption" which involves no airports, no foreign governments, no foster care kids with previous histories, and no sky high price tags or bidding wars with other perspective adoptive couples for trying to get one of the rare healthy white infants that come on the market in traditional adoption. Assumedly not much in the way of waiting lists either.

      No wonder they like it so much- theologically it feels good AND no messy birthparents, no history, no life experience, just the healthy white infant they always wanted- and the adoptive mother gets to be 'all woman', giving birth herself and everything.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 02:39:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I know a Christian woman with... (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    skwimmer, shirah, ppluto, willers, mspicata

    I think eleven kids. A few are hers biologically but the vast majority of them (sorry, I don't know the difference--she never talks about them) are special needs kids who she will have to care for the rest of her life. She always signs emails and posts "Mother of Many, Child of God." She works so hard with these kids, helping them to get up to their full potential, whatever disadvantages they have whether physical or emotional/intellectual.

    So pardon me as I scoff at this snowflake initiative. If these people are so keen on children, they ought to follow this woman's example. I'm sure she wouldn't care for me to point it out, but she has truly earned the label "Christian".

    tragically un-hip
    ..- .... --..-- / --- -.- .-.-.-

    -5.88, -6.82

    by Debby on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:45:48 PM PDT

    •  deja vu (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, willers

      I have to wonder about the organizations that are taking part in this so-called "snowflake initiative". Are they really so concerned about all of God's children, or just the "special" ones?

      Hmm . . . sort of reminds me of some of the social experiments that were going on in the 1930's.

      I'm surprised that Dubya didn't have all of the kids dressed up in matching uniforms doing a little goose-stepping for the cameras.

  •  Please G-d: An Islamic Embryonic Adoption Agency? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah
  •  I wonder... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah

    Would they allow a white baby to be implanted in a woman from another race?

    Also, while I agree with a lot of what you said and there is a chance of this occurring in the future, I believe, at this time, there are less than 150 Snowflake babies in America. That doesn't really sound like even a marginal threat by the numbers. I realize that he 'used' them as a symbol of 'life', but it might be a stretch to think his personal position is to one day implant all IVF embryos in willing Fundie wombs. Now, that may be someone's idea of what to do with the embryos, but one of the reasons the right hasn't gone full-force after IVF clinics to have them shut down (even though some wish it was so) is that it would alienate the people you pointed out: White, healthy, wealthy couples.

    You can laugh when you're proven right though...

    •  not about numbers (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, mspicata, Hedwig

      Unfortunately, it's not about numbers (for the moment) so much as the meme.

      For evangelicals, each and every single one of those kids surrounding Bush up there are to their minds "saved" from being "murdered" for the sake of stem cell research.

      ONE of these kids means everything to them because to them, it was ONE kid not "murdered".

      This is exactly the kind of legislating for the extreme low numbers ("if it saves just one") psuedo-rationale that has been used to cover the country within just a few years with Baby-Moses Laws- i.e. "safe haven" laws- which is a whole 'nother can of worms when it comes to christian eugenics, actual adoption, and identity.

      I'm just saying, in this meme, they move very rapidly legislatively- and often highly sucessfully.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 12:55:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  oh and IVF clinics (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, Hedwig

      One other detail- I was present (as a researcher, not a participant) for what may have been America's first and only IVF clinic protest by compulsory pregnancy advocates who oppose IVF.

      American Life League (a catholic anti-abortion group) protested one morning several years back outside an IVF clinic in Northern Virginia.

      While they opposed IVF and the ongoing storage of the embryos, they did not, however want the embryos destroyed.

      Most other CPA groups that I've seen, however have no problem with IVF as they are intent on increasing their own numbers through what ever means possible. And as many of their people became involved in the anti-abortion work as a result of thier own reproductive history and in some cases inabilities- for the most part, they are supportive of each new scientific advance that increases the birth rate.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 02:55:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

        they are supportive of each new scientific advance that increases the birth rate

        That's not hypocritcal at all eh? So, the eventual result will be? They will allow women to store embryos in the clinics, but won't allot the embryos to be destroyed? Then, they'll pass laws that allow anyone to come in without the parents permission and take an embryo? We'd have no say what happens to our genetic material? I wonder how'd that play out legally. I mean, if someone else gives birth to one of your embryos, could the kid challenge their right to your estate after you die? Would 10 of them show up at your door calling you daddy?

  •  I remember reading an article (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah, willers, mspicata

    About one woman w/ a snowflake baby.  She'd tried like 8 different embryos before one survived and grew into a baby.  And she was talking about how she was "liberating" the poor enslaved embryo, making a really thick comparison to slavery and emancipation.  And I was thinking "Look lady, there were 8 so-called enslaved embryos -- you killed 7 of them w/ your botched attempts to to thaw and implant them in order to liberate just one of them.  If I'm an enslaved embryo and I'm a real person w/ as much right to life as the next person, I'm thinking I'd rather just stay where I am -- I'm not liking my odds too much."

    Thanks for this diary.  Good food for thought.

    •  quality (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, ppluto, mspicata

      Actually, one of the arguments against snowflakes, is that there's a concrete scientific REASON these embryos are the 'spares'- they were lesser quality/less likely to develop into an eventual sucessful pregnancy.

      When a couple undergoes IVF, when the embryos initially came together, those most likely to develop into healthy pregnancies that can be maintained through to term are those used for initial attempts at implantation. Simply put, due to a number of reasons, not only scientific, also expense and the emotional hell that can be related to failed tries, those most likely to result in a viable pregnancy are skimmed off and used first.

      Couples may go through a number of rounds of attempts before a successful pregnancy and birth occurr- if ever. If they wish to try for a second or third child etc out of that same initial batch of preserved embryos, the quantity, and quality diminishes further. Eventually they're left with frozen embryos, some that may be viable, many that may be less viable.

      By the time the couple has finished with their attempts at successful offspring, the 'spares' from that process, if passed on to the transferance process are in turn less likely to gestate.

      Which means, the embryo "adopters" may have to go through repeated attempts, and much emotional heartbreak along the way, with no guarentee of eventual success. To say nothing of the expenses related to each attempt at implantation.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 02:10:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Incompatibility (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah

      What about incompatibilities between "mother" and embryo? One known problem with natural pregnancies is the Rhesus Factor and its effects on mother and foetus during pregnancy. I shudder to think what other incompatibilities there may be when the host mother has no genetic relationship with the embryo whatever. This may be one of the reasons why this lady became a serial killer (according to her own logic), murdering seven embryos along the way [/snark].

      In fact, when I read this article, the first thought that went through my mind was: "The Boys From Brazil."

      The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.

      by Spoc42 on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 03:49:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  scary stuff, stormcoming (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah, willers

    Thanks for the info stormcoming. I just keep wondering how the hell did the wackos get so much control in this country.

    Anyway, I have a question. Do you know if the parents of these "snowflake" children get permission from the biological parents(?)/donors of the embryos before they get them?

    •  the biological parents (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, mspicata

      It varies agency to agency, but usually the biological parents have signed off on this as their 'option' for what to do with the 'spare' embryos- it's specificly being marketed by some clinics/storage facilities as the 'pro-life' means of dealing with them.

      In some cases, you have christian bio parents who intentionally pass along their embryos to another christian couple- complete with rhetoric about how god wanted the second couple to parent their bio kids. Much of it is deeply cloaked in 'god meant it to be', or even god showed me in a dream' kinds of language.

      Some kids have both sets of parents in their lives, others do not.

      The question remains, the kid being born, by via the non-bio mother, how many of these kids will never be told their true origins, (or may find out much later in life, sometimes by accident, similar to late discovery adoptees, LDAs).

      Kids who are not told will go through life thinking they share their family who gave birth to them's medical history etc- never once suspecting their genetics are not those of their (non-bio set of) parents. This puts these kids, and eventual adults into a similar medical category to traditional adoptees who are unaware of their adopted status.

      Suffice it to say, the potential for genuine mess is great, to say nothing about how these little trophies are being paraded around in DC and at conferences- for some any notion of 'privacy' is being completely destroyed by thier non-bio parents who are using them as props in their lobbying efforts.

      Who knows what new and inovative insults these kids may get to face down on the playgrounds.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 01:06:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ouch! (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shirah, stormcoming

        That last sentence hurt! I was not adopted, but suffered in the playgrounds, because I was the only one in class who was wearing spectacles by the age of 6. I shudder to think what these children will go through in a few years' time. Insults such as "your mommy couldn't even have a baby from your daddy, so they bought you instead" are likely to scar the minds of these children for years...

        The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.

        by Spoc42 on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 03:55:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          shirah, mspicata

          And that's what I continually try to do when I try to explain this to people- force them to look at the very real, very human, realities that the people who are the end results of ongoing manipulations like this are really going to have to deal with for the rest of their lives.

          How would you feel if your name and baby pictures were splattered all over the national news before you were even 1? These kids have no say in how they're being utilized politically. They have no consent, they're reduced to set design. And this is the image the world will have of them, ensuring that they will FOREVER more be known as a 'flake.

          This as I've said before and will say yet again, treats people, infants and kids in this case, as a means to an end, not as ends unto themselves. It's revolting.

          All I guess I can ultimately say, speaking as a proud bastard ("adoptee") myself, is that as these kids grow up, some of them will likely have their own political and biographical awakenings, just as regular adoptees, Late discovery adoptees, and now yes, even children who have been produced as a result of sperm donation have. But the so called "snowflakes" (they will have to find their own voice, and their own self definition in time) are going to be facing down their own unique set of circumstances and unique political challenges.

          Wait roughly 30 years, then you may just start hearing the other end of this- told in first person voice by the children produced via all this. That time lag has occurred over and over again in each community, from the 'test tube' babies, to today's "baby moses" laws/"safe haven" laws and the snowflake kids.

          barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

          by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 05:30:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  the power of words: infanticide, eugenics,... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah

    My reaction to Bush's veto dog show was to think of the words to associate with Bush beliefs.

    He supports or condones:

    • eugenics (embryos are inspected and the weak discarded)
    • infanticide (what else can you call killing an infant)
    • slavery (he is promoting the transfer of a human life as property without the child's interests being reviewed by a judge and an agency acting on the child's behalf - do the parents who "adopt" get vetted by an agency to determine if they are fit parents)

    He objects to

    • using human spare parts, commonly called organ donation
    • medical research, aka education, on humans, commonly called donating one's body to science

    In my view, the way to make the illogic of those who made these "an embryo is a human life" arguments is to introduce one bill that requires all frozen embryos to be included in the census to determine the number of representative allocated to each state, and a second bill that changes the IRS definition of dependent to include embryos where the taxpayer is paying child support (the fee to pay for storage space in the vat of liquid nitrogen).  And a third bill would change the way that age is calculated to be nine months after conception, which would mean that an embryo in storage for five years would start out at age five.

    •  actually it's nuanced (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah, mspicata

      Firstly, "eugenics" itself is about a sort mechanism- the creation of an arbitrary standard of 'desirable' and 'undesirable'. Historically, particularly here in America the 'sort' was on race and physical characteristics.

      The Eugenics I alluded to in the above is actually more of a theological eugenics, or as I called it in the title "christian eugenics"- desirability in this case, is not merely the (predominatly white) IVF cryogenically preserved embryos, but also a second sort on who make appropriate "nests" to place the national resource of these embryos into- ie, who gets to parent? On that sort, they sort by what I've loosely termed a "metaphoric blood sort"- i.e. are you covered by the blood of jesus, or not? Are you a member of the tribe of the fish, or not?

      Families deemed sufficiently christian- through a process of proving worthiness in some way, i.e. ongoing church participation, letters of recomendation from their pastor, bank statements as evidence of appropriate thithing, etc, are as I said, rewarded with the embryos. Those not deemed an appropriate 'spiritual environment' (for many reasons, not just Queer, many people won't meet their metaphoric blood sort standards) are denied.

      Now, getting into some of your Bush views- embryo 'inspection' and discarding- I personally don't know his views on discarding, but it's possible he opposes such. As for inspecting for viability- that is actually part of the scientific process of determining whether or not to implant- as each IVF attempt can cost thousands of dollars- in other words, it's an intrinsic part of the IVF process.

      As for your 'slavery' argument- you've got it backwards. Bush and the administration are specifically arguing this combined genetic material, i.e. the embryos ARE NOT property, that instead they are a 'third person' with their own 'rights' in need of (federal or state) protection.

      The 'property/ownership' argument is actually more often made by biological couples who wish to maintain control over the embryos they created- arguing these are not 'third parties' but are instead 'potentials' made up of thier own genetic material, and as such, they alone get to determine the fate of the genetic material.

      The 'spare parts' line is actually a very specific reference to a video tape produced by Mark Crutcher of Life Dynamics, and (and now meme/argument) now common in the compulsory pregnancy advocates' (CPAs') subculture- that of abortion clinics 'selling' fetal body parts- an outright lie- as proven when Life Dynamic's 'star witness' blew to pieces in testimony before congress. This anti-abortion meme- now throughly accepted as a matter of bedrock faith by CPAs has been picked up and moved over into the stem-cell arguments as an extention, of the Robin Cook-esque imagery used by CPAers to describe humans bred purely for 'parts'. It's a crock of shit- but commonly believed by people who continue to insist on nonsense like "the process of birth begins at the moment of conception" and and "embryos are babies".

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 01:36:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ethical questions (0+ / 0-)

    I would not force "Christianity" down the throat of any child; what gives them the right to force as-yet unborn children into their rigid, bigoted frame? This looks to me to be coming from two directions:

    1. They want to ensure that there is a steady supply of "extra" minds that they can manipulate, to be given to those most narrow-minded bigots who cannot have any children of their own to manipulate (doesn't this perhaps mean that God knows what would happen to any offspring of such a union, and is protecting them from such a terrible fate?).
    1. These "host" families will pay top dollar for the embryos, thus lining the pockets of those organisations that supply them. If embryos are "people," then, according to their own logic, these organisations are involved in white slavery, because they are selling people to other people! In other words, they are showing their hypocricy, because they are treating these embryos as things to be bought and sold!

    The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.

    by Spoc42 on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 03:28:14 AM PDT

  •  Not to get too O/T here... (0+ / 0-)

    But since snowflake kids are biological siblings of the original kid... isn't there a chance of a lot of unintended incest in the future?

    •  not unique to 'snowflakes' (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah

      Yes, potentially, if they are unaware of their origins.

      This is an issue regular adoptees living with sealed records or otherwise kept from their genealogical heritage also face and bring up with regularity as an objection to denying any group of people their history.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 05:14:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sure but (0+ / 0-)

      is that really an argument to use against adoption.  I'm reminded of Alan Keyes' campaign against Barack Obama when he said that it's wrong to allow gays to adopt because "if you don't know who your [biological] parents are, it's inevitable that you will end up in an incestuous relationship."

      This is a worry, sure.  But it certainly doesn't happen all the time, I'd even go so far as to say it happens only around 1% of the time.  As a serious argument against any form of adoption, I'd say this falls flat.

      *and I'm not arguing for this snowflake kids adoption crap... in general I support adopting kids already on this planet, and specifically those in foster care who are deemed less "desireable".

      •  not adoption- history (0+ / 0-)

        I didn't say it was being brought up as an argument against adoption itself, I said adoptees bring it up in realtion to

        ...an objection to denying any group of people their history.

        Many groups of people through history have been in one form or another denied their heritiage and geneology. Sure incest is one potential outcome of that process- I wouldn't even gander a guess at how often such occurrs- odds would seem to point towards it being an incredibly minimal risk. The odds would go up ever so slightly if they were still in ongoing touch with members of their biofamily however unknowingly.

        There is certainly no inevitablity to it- the crux of Keyes' (blantantly false) argument is an extention of what compulsory pregnancy advocates use over and over- 'if allowed than must', or 'if there's even an teeny possiblity, IT WILL HAPPEN'. Needless to say, that's bullshit.

        The point is, when you have people nose down in 'if allowed than must'- then one arguement that speaks the only language that seems to get through to them is that they are building a system wherein 'unintended side effects' like incest become, however exceptional, a possibility.

        Nor are the adoptees bringing this up in relation to adoption prohibition- merely they bring it up to fight the sealed records/secrecy in adoption. It's not a head on attack against adoption itself- just the secrecy aspects thereof.

        barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

        by stormcoming on Fri Jul 21, 2006 at 09:30:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  re: (0+ / 0-)

          The basic crux of my argument is that we have to tread a careful line because alot of what we are saying in here can be used as arguments against adoption period.  I think that was understood, but sometimes it can be hard to know for certain.  Public figures and even private citizens will say something like Keyes did against a particular aspect of adoption without even realizing that he is speaking out against something that resonates with all adoptions (and sometimes even larger, as Keyes idiotic statement did).  

          I don't know if I'm making sense here or not.  If not, just ignore me... kicks self

  •  forced pregnancy (0+ / 0-)

    This is on their agenda. No lie. The NYTimes had an article on the subject a couple months ago. And Ted Rall really captured it last week in this cartoon.

    Notice all the things that are trending in this direction - except for the need to get women into the house and out of the workforce to care for all those kids. Until one income can support a family or there is affordable daycare, that can't happen.

    So I guess there still is room for the Handmaid's Tale. http://www.unbossed.com/...

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