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More Magical Thinking About Race

Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:07:50 PM PDT

I read an interesting diary today, mrsdbrown1's Of Seating Charts, Racism, and Looking in the Mirror.    The diary, a sensitive piece on preparing to teach inner-city kids, contained this nugget at its heart: "It's hard in our culture not to hold stereotypes about groups of people with whom we have little or no direct interaction."  The diary generated these two responses:
"There is one point that I didn't see [mentioned - the fact that many [African American] kids feel that academic accomplishment is somehow anathema.  I know teachers in the Milwaukee school system (one of the most racially segregated in the country) mention this as a significant obstacle to their students' success." And also this:"That was a huge problem among my latino students. Doing well in school was definitely not cool. I had an African American colleague who said that she believed that the students thought that doing well in school equated to selling out."

Jump.

It makes me so angry to see these kinds of comment, which I saw echoed downthread the diary, because it just isn't true.  But the persistence of this particular stereotype just proves that magical thinking about race thrives, even among people who believe themselves to be highly intelligent and wholly rational.

The idea persists that kids magically acquire academic ambition.  People who hold these views obviously think that the Fairy Bookworm flies through the bedroom window of all those high-rise projects, and leaves it under the pillows of inner-city kids.  Or the Ghost of Mr. Chips wafts over from England, systematically visiting every school in Compton, Bedford-Stuyvesant, and East St. Louis, where he hovers over their right shoulders whispering encouragement.  Most of the people who hold those views aren't quite sure just exactly how it works, but they know -- they just have a feeling -- that academic ambition comes after you rub the Magic Inkwell.  That's if you're black, of course.  For whites, that's not how it works; for whites, academic interest is instilled, nurtured, prodded, disciplined, fed, encouraged, supported by a host of real, tangible, fungible, bread-and-butter  resources.  But for blacks, it's not.  For blacks, it's magic.

What is the arc of academic achievement? In other words, what are the systems that support academic achievement, and what systems does academic achievement support in turn?

The arc of academic achievement is, at least in our society, seems to go something like this:

1)   an environment that has the resources to provide a good education;

2)  a continuing education that is more and more tailored to individual interests and preferences;

3)  a job that complements and supports individual ambition;

4)  a remunerative job;

5)  a job with some status;

6)  a secure niche in our economy;

7)  some real autonomy and power over life-choices.

Now,  for the average white, middle-class kid, this roughly works out to:

1a)  a school that has staff, supplies, expertise, and security, truly adequate to providing a good, well-rounded  education, including an education that informs students of the overarching educational process;  which leads to....

2a)  an expectation that high school will lead to college, college to grad/master's, master's to PhD, with each successive stage reflecting more specific interests, and developing more specific skill, of the student;  which leads to....

3a)  an expectation that the high school student will be able to get a job that helps him/her get into the college of her choice; the college kid gets a job that helps him/her into grad school, and the grad student gets a job that helps shoehorn the student into a career.  (For "job," especially at the high-school level, include "experience, hobby, etc.," and at the college or early post-grad years, include "unpaid internship.")  An early-career job leads to....

4a)  an expectation that the sacrifice of salary in unpaid internships or low-salary at entry-level jobs will reliably presage a job that pays a living wage and allows the financial passage into true adult life. That is, a job that will support having a spouse, a child, a home, and some luxuries. This sets up....

5a)  an expectation that a reasonable amount of work and dedication to the job will yield some status; pay raises, promotions, increased responsibility, increased visibility, and especially, a recognition by one's peers that your job lies within the cultural norms of middle- and upper-middle-class jobs. Then ...

6a)  an expectation that, following reasonably prudent economic stratagems, you can survive economic shocks and provide for yourself in old age; which yields....

7a)  an expectation that in the middle-to-later years of your working life and especially, in retirement, you can pursue your own interests, whether or not those interests are remunerative.

Above all, for the average middle-class kid, academic achievement has a context.  To be sure, some relatively small percentage of kids are going to be imbued with a desire for achievement strictly for its own sake.  But for the vast majority of kids, achievement has a context -- academic achievement is part of a larger narrative.

Race -- the status of being non-white -- breaks the flow of the narrative.  Schools don't include non-whites into either the creation or the structure of this narrative.  And the material world of non-white students doesn't support the narrative either.   Notice that I say "the material world."  There are non-material elements, elements like love, encouragement, values, that support kids.  But those non-material elements support and give shape to the kids themselves -- they don't, and can't -- support the substantive elements of the narrative.  Love doesn't pay bills, encouragement doesn't create jobs, values don't hire teachers.  Magical thinking substitutes non-material entities, or non-material states, for material entities or states.  Magical thinking equates the power of love with the presence of a library; magical thinking mistakes esteem for an education, for passage of a school budget;  magical thinking tries to make dinner from the smell of a steak, and tries to pay the light bill with the sound of some money.

At the early stage, where kids are supposed to get exposure to interesting, vivid, fascinating things, things to spark their interest, they don't get those things.  The poorest districts don't have enough money to provide the foundation for a motivated academic life. No money for class trips, no money for new media, no money for librarians, music, art, dance, or theater teachers ...no money to expose kids to the experiences that spark the imagination and ignite the desire to follow exposure with more experience, and more, and more, until the set of experiences becomes itself a mini-narrative that the kid wants to see through to the end.  

The early academic environment makes no provision for -- doesn't have the resources for -- an increasingly tailored, increasingly interesting, increasingly skills-building education. You get the 3 Rs, and that's all you get... whether you're at first, second, third grades, at middle-school, or at high school.  It's not going to get any more interesting, because it's not going to get any more varied.  So you don't get kids who were exposed earlier on to, say, music, and then at the later stages get to follow up that exposure with trips to the opera house, or concert hall, or jazz club -- much less with trips overseas to Bayreuth, or La Scala.  

Next, at the stage where school provides a context for getting a job that leads to college, the kids get to compete ferociously for the few jobs that their inner-city neighborhood small businesses will support.  Likely, these jobs at most will help you with the money you need to pay for college. But they won't be the kinds of jobs that help you get into college -- they won't be the kinds of jobs that will impress an admissions committee. No working on an archaeological dig, no being a guide at the historical living museum, no internship on the city planning commission. You get to work at McDonalds, if you're lucky; not much there  will spark your intellectual curiosity.

That will be your experience from the day you get your first working permit, right through grad school, and into the early stages of your career. At every stage, you will be less likely to get a job that either impresses the admissions people at the next stage, or that will complements your academic interests.  Like medicine?  Too bad.  Interested in space?  Tough.  Think maybe you'd be good at building bridges?  Keep dreaming.  Your school does not have the resources to flesh out those interests.  And neither will your neighborhood.

The movie theaters in your neighborhood will play a steady stream of kung-fu and Snoop-Dogg movies. It will be expensive to get to suburban multi-plexes to see more mainstream fare, and forget about a foreign film; you'll be lucky if there is an art-house theatre anywhere within public transportation, or a newspaper that carries notices of what gets played there.  If you do get to college, your college classmates may well understand the reference to Death playing chess in a Woody Allen movie, but if you saw it at all, you saw it in a Bill and Ted movie, you have no idea what connection it has to Sweden, and it just doesn't have the same cultural resonance.  So fuck you.

The narrative that starts pre-kindergarten and links academic achievement to the story of your entire life, is not reflected in your poor neighborhood.  You are not surrounded by people who have lived out the entire arc of that narrative, and who can therefore model it for you.  And anyway, the stuff of the narrative isn't there.

You will go to museums entirely on your own initiative or the initiative of your parents, but the admissions fees. will have to come out of the family's food money, clothing budget, and/or medicine.  So, even if you absolutely loved looking at the dinosaurs at the Museum of Natural History, you are likely only to be able to see them once; you won't be able to come back again and again and see them a little differently, a little more deeply, each visit.  In addition, you will find yourself utterly bewildered by the fact that your ancestral culture is   displayed in the Natural History museum along with the animals, while white ancestral culture is displayed in "Fine Art" museums.  No one will make explicit why this is so, no one will admit making the deliberate choice to equate your people with animals, and everyone will act really, really shocked by the spoken suggestion that your culture is in any way inferior, although the tacit suggestion is, of course, entirely acceptable now as always.

If there are six people in your family, it will cost your parents approximately $50 just to take you out to see a movie; it'll be a lot cheaper to rent a video. But your local video store will not have a foreign film section, except for its extensive kung-fu and anime collection. So, unless you're very, very lucky, you won't have seen March of the Penguins, The Hellstrom Chronicles, or that wonderful documentary on the migration of birds.  (The younger you are, the less money your family is likely to have to spare on intellectual fodder for you).  The same will be true in spades for going to the planetarium, the zoo, the aquarium, or any I-MAX type film. A Broadway-style play will be outside of your budget entirely.  Some teachers will start to wonder why you have no academic curiosity about, say, snakes, although your exposure to snakes has pretty much been limited to seeing Sam Jackson yelling about some muthafuckin snakes on a muthafuckin airplane.  Not one of your teachers has ever used the word 'herpetologist' in your presence.  They don't expect you to know it, and that's good enough for them.  In this regard, there will be little difference between your kindergarten teacher and your high school teachers; the word "entomologist" will never be spoken, and why talk about "Woods Hole" when you know black people can't swim.

The standardized tests, which are written by whites for whites, won't reference more than one (1) book by a non-white author. Because your school only has enough resources to prepare you for the standardized tests and nothing more, you will read Middlemarch, The Catcher In the Rye, some Shakespeare, and Native Son; you will not read anything written after about 1960.

Your family may or may not have an explicit discussion about it, but you will have picked up, by now, whether or not you will have the financial resources to go on to college; if you don't, you will have to decide whether to put your energies into continuing an academic life, or direct them towards finding a local job. By the time you're finishing up high school, you'll have heard, over and over again, how much Jews value a good education.  You will try to tell them, in vain, that it was your people, not theirs, who fought and died for the privilege of just learning how to read; you will want to say that valuing education is equally true of your own culture, but you know damned well no body's listening.  And anyway, they will never have been taught about Mary McLeod Bethune.  But they will have been inculcated, by now, with a mild contempt for historically black colleges.

If you do decide to go on to college, you will have to start developing a very thick skin, because you're going to start hearing, over and over, that "many African American kids feel that academic accomplishment is somehow anathema."  You will not have had a yoga class to help you calm down when you feel like slapping the shit out of  the speaker.  Most likely, you'll control yourself, because you've been taught better than to resolve conflicts by fighting.  If you by any chance give in to the impulse, you'll be arrested.

Tags: African Americans, Blacks, Stereotypes, Racism, Education (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 63 comments

  •  Thank you (4+ / 0-)

    for this marvelous post.

    Buy my book! The Servant of the Manthycore by Michael Ehart, foreword by Michael Moorcock http://www.mehart.blogspot.com/

    by IsraelHand on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:07:10 PM PDT

  •  and you fall into the same trap (4+ / 0-)

    All of the economic and access factors you discuss above aren't limited by race in their impact.

    There are a great many poor white rural school districts that you could be equally describing.

    Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

    by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:09:13 PM PDT

    •  Then why isn't the stereotype (9+ / 0-)

      flung at poor whites?  Why is there no cognate stereotype that runs just as deep through American culture that says ...poor whites think academic achievement is anathema? They don't say that, do they?

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:16:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No they don't say that (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        IsraelHand, ormondotvos

        That's my point. The diary doesn't really get at the heart of what the problem is.

        Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

        by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:18:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not that I don't posit, it's that (7+ / 0-)

          you don't accept the position I've taken.

          The reason they don't say it is because while people recognize that for whites, poor resources yield poor educations, whereas towards blacks they ascribe an absence --not of resources -- but absence of valuing intellectual curiosity or academic achievement.The magical thinking is precisely that whites fail for lack of resources, while blacks fail for lack of desire.  Your post doesn't respond to this reality at all.

          Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

          by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:22:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They don't say anything (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            IsraelHand, ormondotvos

            When was the last time you saw any concern for poor rural schools of any race?

            Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

            by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:39:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Point well taken: (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            IsraelHand

            Absence of resources, absence of desire.

            Desire is a resource.

            The joys of slavery, both chattel and caste.

            •  No! NO NO NO!! (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DemInCville, redfish, FLDemJax, bic momma

              Desire is NOT a material resource.  Otherwise, you could buy a book with desire, or build a school with desire.  Black people have plenty of love, plenty of desire.  It was, in fact, our people who fought and went underground to learn, when it was against the law for black people even to learn to read.  We were the only people in the history of America, about which that was true, by the way.  

              And I seriously doubt that, unless you yourself are black, you have enough immersion into black culture and especially, black home life, to see the gazillion ways that academic success IS valued.  Tremendous pressure is put on kids to succeed, and succeed academically.  But without the resources at home, in the neighborhood, or at school, how is this going to happen?  All YOU see is the outcome, the inevitable depression, sense of futility, or inability to magically overcome the material hurdles.  And because that's what you see ...the tip of an iceberg ...that's what you think exists.

              Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

              by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:57:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Trailer trash. Hillbilly. Redneck Military brat. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        IsraelHand, Muwarr90
        •  I repeat: (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          IsraelHand

          "poor whites think academic excellence is anathema."

          Doesn't work, does it?  I'm not saying there are no stereotypes about poor whites; I'm saying that the stereotype about non-whites being hostile to academics is just that -- a stereotype -- that engages in the magical thinking that academic excellence and material resources are linked for whites, but not for blacks ...that for blacks, the only component is attitude.

          Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

          by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:52:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Open your eyes (0+ / 0-)

            Willful ignorance and lack of education is an integral part of each of those stereotypes. The exact phrasing may be different, but the assupmtion is the same.

            Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

            by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:59:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)

            on the street behind me, it works equally well for the poor whites.  The school they go to tests surprisingly well right now, just 4% point below schools in the righest quadrant of the city, so you can't blame it on the school, imo.  It's got to start with the desires of the parents.  If the parents don't want it for their kids it won't happen.

        •  Which is only (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jayb

          a segment of whites, not the entire race.  

          "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

          by tryptamine on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:59:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hit this one... (7+ / 0-)

    out of the park.
    I remember thinking today that if we had taken a fraction of the world energy and resources spent after the fall of the Berlin Wall and used this capital on education, healthcare and secure food distribution networks for all citizens, what would our world look like today?  Thank you for reminding us that our experiences limit our reason and judgements, but we have the capacity to see beyond our narrow worlds and that gives me hope.

    Energy is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes form.

    by SME in Seattle on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:24:25 PM PDT

    •  Thanks, because it's true. (5+ / 0-)

      If you starve kids before the age of five, they don't develop the brain size -- the brain capacity --equal to nourished, healthy pre-5s.  If you catch them before 5, you can reverse the effects of malnourishment.

      It's the same thing with intellectual stimulation; it's not magic.  No books, no movies, no museums, no stimulation, no curiosity.  It's that simple. Only, the myth for poor whites is inevitably a pull-up-by-bootstraps story, whereas for poor blacks, it's inevitably a "they don't value academic achievement" story.  If you look behind the myths, you will find some tangible resources -- or lack of resources -- at the root of either course, either set of experiences.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:29:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One easy point to make (6+ / 0-)

        is access to good libraries.

        I succeeded academically in large part due to my parents taking me to the public library every weekend (cause it was free but for the parking, and my dad even managed to game that).

        If you have no way to get to the library, it might as well not exist.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

        by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:39:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank God for the Internet. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          IsraelHand, jayb

          If as a parent you teach the real library uses of the Internet, and fight the game and zombie entertainment aspect of it, it even surpasses the local library.

          Especially if you teach the kid to write in forums, rather than chat groups.

          And we did.

        •  This is SO true. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, lemming22

          But even this has changed.  When I was coming up, the local library had your classic, grandmotherly children's librarian who had story hour every day.  Lots of kids were there ...and it was an all-black neighborhood, so all the kids were black.  But when the budget cuts starting rolling through, and they started closing neighborhood libraries, and the nearest 'local' library was a bus-ride-plus-transfer away, in a hostile white neighborhood (think Howard Beach-type place)... well, the kids stopped going.  That's how it goes.  And the hostile neighborhood was overwhelmingly Jewish.  So ... it didn't do much to kill the stereotype that blacks weren't interested, but whites were.

          Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

          by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:48:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and? (0+ / 0-)

            And the hostile neighborhood was overwhelmingly Jewish

            And what significance do you find in that fact?

            Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

            by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:50:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My diary, my story, my experience: (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bic momma

              By the time you're finishing up high school, you'll have heard, over and over again, how much Jews value a good education.  You will try to tell them, in vain, that it was your people, not theirs, who fought and died for the privilege of just learning how to read; you will want to say that valuing education is equally true of your own culture, but you know damned well no body's listening.  And anyway, they will never have been taught about Mary McLeod Bethune.  But they will have been inculcated, by now, with a mild contempt for historically black colleges.

              The significance is that there is a strong stereotype that says Jews DO value a good education.  My point is that trying to say that blacks share that value -- especially trying to say blacks share it in equal measure -- is met with scepticism, if not outright scorn.

              Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

              by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:01:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Whatever (0+ / 0-)

                I don't think setting racial and ethnic groups against each other is going to do much to achieve your goals.

                Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

                by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:08:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  HOO-boy. (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't think setting racial and ethnic groups against each other is going to do much to achieve your goals.

                  That's true.  But like I said ...my diary, my history, my experience.  So ...telling what happened is not at all the same as "setting one group against another."  Telling what happened is a way for those different groups to learn that there is another reality, another set of experiences, and those experiences were not all sweetness and light.

                  Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

                  by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:42:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Neither were theirs (0+ / 0-)

                    I suggest that, as you explain your experinces, that you open yourself to the experiences of others. Their experience was likely not all sweetness and light either.

                    Lying can never save us from another lie - Vaclav Havel

                    by Muwarr90 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 05:27:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I Can't See How She Did (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  4thepeople

                  Please explain how she set anyone against anyone else.

                  Stop rewarding bad behavior.

                  by FLDemJax on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:49:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  To add (7+ / 0-)

    to your already excellent diary: my little brother (who is basically white) came to visit me for a week.  I asked about school and he told me about how uncool it was, even amongst him and his rather nerdy friends, to be smart or interested in school.  Yet I don't see anyone stating that "white kids feel academic accomplishment is anathema."  

    When you also take into consideration that my brother simply assumes he will go to college - with absolutely no plan or idea of how to do it, and in spite of being fairly poor and already getting rather mediocre grades in middle school - it really highlights the incredible privilege that white people have when it comes to education and academic achievement.

    "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

    by tryptamine on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:25:49 PM PDT

    •  Most 9-year old boys (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      IsraelHand, tryptamine, ormondotvos

      think school is pretty uncool, and they seem to hold that attitude until sophomore year, or so, of high school.  Nobody applies the stereotype on the basis that they're white.  That's the whole point.  So, I agree with you.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:34:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That Would Be My Only Complaint (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      about this diary.  Thinking that working at achieving in school is anathema crosses racial boundaries pretty easily.  There are large cross sections of society that  consider intellectual pursuit of anything is just plain crazy.  That includes schooling.

      But, otherwise this diary rocks.  Well-written and brought me around to a different viewpoint on the whole topic!

      Stop rewarding bad behavior.

      by FLDemJax on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:53:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A sound and well balanced diary. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    IsraelHand, tryptamine, Caneel, jayb

    It's sadder than hell to me because my last youngster is caught right in the middle -- half black, half white. Think big Hawai'ian with curly hair, but not heavy.

    It took her only one year in Florida to learn that other black kids didn't expect to succeed, and the corollary, Why Even Try.

    Because we put in a lot of steam at home, and finally home-schooled most of mid-school, she lived in both worlds.  We moved to California.

    When she entered Berkeley High School (where you'd think the fire of curiosity and scholarship would burn brightly) she scoped it out and returned home to announce that there were at least seventeen(!) easily charted areas of the school reserved for different classes of students.

    I called her bluff. My bad. We went to school the next morning and I was treated to a display of amateur sociology that kind of set me back on my mental heels.

    I wrote, she spoke, and we ended up with nineteen easily charted places staked out by different groups. Quite an education.

    The next weird thing was that she already knew which of the groups were for and against doing well at school. She had already joined several of them.

    Her explanation was that the two week peace camp we had sent her to when she was eleven had taught her how to avoid taking sides or alienating new people.

    But she refused to go to school because between classes was too violent, and the whiter kids presumed she was hip-hop, or worse, and the blacker kids called her an Oreo (black on the outside, white on the inside).

    She took her diploma from the Alternative School in Berkeley and split as soon as she turned sixteen and we emancipated her.

    That was five years ago. Now she's in Hawai'i, where she's dead in the middle of the population culture and appearance.

    Still an amateur sociologist, much happier. Hope the hurricane isn't too weird.

    •  The interesting thing is, (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      IsraelHand, tryptamine, ormondotvos

      that even where the school is fairly integrated, the neighborhoods are not ...or at least, they're not integrated across economic lines even if they are multi-ethnic neighborhoods.  So you still get the problem of the resources for academic nurturance being missing from the neighborhoods, even assuming they exist in the schools.  And often, in poor neighborhoods, they don't exist in the schools.  So there's basically nothing but the ability of the parents to pull it out of their asses, so to speak.

      You see this with immigrant kids all the time, where the immigrant parents were not middle class before they arrived in America.  Those kids don't get the academic resources at home; they get the love and discipline, but not the actual resources.  The resources themselves come from local churches, synagogues, civic clubs, and schools.  But if those institutions are not set up to distribute some kind of resources, it just doesn't happen, for most kids.  

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:41:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting diary (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    IsraelHand, tryptamine, ormondotvos

    I'm a "latino" who always (after first grade) excelled academically.  I almost got held back in first grade due to having grown up in Newark, NJ, and not knowing my ABC's, though I knew how to read.

    "That was a huge problem among my latino students. Doing well in school was definitely not cool."

    I never encountered that.  My experience was "hey one of us made good, you go guy!"  But at the same time I played a decent third base, that probably helped.

    When I got my first "real" job after schooling in my home town, my peers would often ask me where I'd gone to high school, given I was a hometown boy.  

    When I mentioned the name of my school, one of three in the city, they had never heard of it because they had all gone to private schools.

    The cultural differences between growing up poor and upper middle class or wealthy are indeed vast, I had a hard time bonding with people in that first job.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

    by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:35:36 PM PDT

    •  It has always helped (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      IsraelHand, tryptamine, redfish

      to be a little more well-rounded than just a bookworm.  Sound mind/sound body, and all that.  Just like it helps that John Stewart is funny as hell, in addition to being the kind of guy who can fill in the NYT crossword in pen, in about two seconds.  

      I agree -- I got a lot of admiration for academic achievement in my neighborhood.  It's just that for people who didn't have the resources to keep up ...there are a lot of negative feelings to deal with, and a whole lot of negative feedback to fight off.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:44:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Take that Maslow guy's list of needs (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        4thepeople

        Some need to get filled before going to the next level.

        I was fortunate in that both my parents were educated before coming here, my dad was a teacher and my mom got an art school scholarship in the country they came from, so I was raised among books and implements of art.  I never got much in the way of toys, I was the low man on the totem pole as far as that goes, but I had books and paper and stuff to be creative on galore.

        It's hard to see the value of books if you haven't been raised valuing books.  

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

        by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:01:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And it's also hard to ACT on that valuation (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DemInCville

          if your love of books is thwarted by no libraries, no neighborhood bookstores, no money to buy.

          Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

          by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:04:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Imo a lack of access to books and art (0+ / 0-)

            is a crime.

            I know it is happening, there are places where people don't have access to a grocery store much less libraries and galleries.

            As much as the media complains about U.S. kids not being up on their math and sciences, I think their lack of exposure to literature and the arts is the greater problem.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

            by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:12:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know I'm biased towards the arts (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DemInCville, redfish

              instead of the sciences, but I think this is true; somehow, the exposure to cultural difference through art prepares you to accept ever deeper and sharper cultural difference ...and prepares you to see, more and more, the similarities.

              And the vocabulary you get through art (whether a vocabulary of words, or of music, or film images, or painterly expression ...) the vocabulary you get through art allows you to communicate far more deeply with a far wider range of people, than the sciences allow.  Most of the really brilliant scientists I know are well-versed in the arts.

              Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

              by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:46:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I practically lived in the... (0+ / 0-)

              ...E Orange Public Library, and read everything I could get my hands on. It was the place where I discovered possibilities -- different lands, cultures and new ways of thinking.  Plus many "smart kids hung out there.  It was a place to go for a little group therapy to deal w/some of the problems of being the "smart kid", especially if you weren't perceived by others to be "cool."

              Also, I know many students who improved their math skills by taking music and having to figure out rhythm and meter signatures, or took their academic studies way more seriously in order to be able to get in a magnet school for the fine arts.  

              "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." - Alice Walker

              by DemInCville on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:26:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Oh wow... (5+ / 0-)

    There is just some shit that white folks can't see:

    In addition, you will find yourself utterly bewildered by the fact that your ancestral culture is displayed in the Natural History museum along with the animals, while white ancestral culture is displayed in "Fine Art" museums.

    Read this list for more examples of shit white folks can't see.

    I hope to not go too far from the original point of the diary, but - I have spent most of my early life living in the "inner-city" (we called it "the ghetto" back when I was a kid - the movie Crooklyn makes me noastalgic) and I was appalled that after 9/11 everyone was running around talking about how NOW fear has come to America. Now Americans truly know fear or some bullshit.

    Puh-lease. Not in my neighborhood. We've been on "high alert" for decades - and NOBODY on my street ever worried about somebody's terrorist. Best believe that dude slinging rock on the corner could give a shit about Al Qaida.

    And how come I could go to sleep EVERY NIGHT to the sound of gunfire, but nobody was worried about Homeland Security then, huh? Oh - okay, now that the suburbians are scared, we'll turn over heaven and earth, tear up the consitution, torture people, all kinda nasty bullshit going on because Bush says his job is to "protect the American people".

    Huh. Yeah. Unless you're in my neighborhood, then you're on your own.

    •  You bring it all back to me. (0+ / 0-)

      I will never, EVER forget going to the multiplex to see Terminator II.  Boyz N the Hood was playing next door.  Suddenly, the doors flew open, and a guy with an AK-47 sprayed down the whole theatre.  My boyfriend, who was from Texas, STOOD UP TO LOOK, while everyone else, including me, instantly hit the floor.  The funny thing was that we were watching the Schwarzenegger movie which was filled with gunfire, but every single person there knew the difference between real gunfire and a movie soundtrack.  Fact is, most of us could tell what kind of gun, pistol or revolver, semi-auto, auto, and calibre, etc., just from the sound of the gunfire.  Went to sleep at night to gunfire so often, you learn to identify it by sound.

      And the fact is, there was a world of difference between the resources available to me, and the resources available to the kids in that neighborhood.  I was an adult -- I'd already had my schooling.  When I was in high school, my local theatre DID play Ingmar Bergman films.  By the time I was an adult, it was strictly a kung-fu house.  No comparison.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:12:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  High Five!!! (0+ / 0-)

      I'm feeling you about 9/11. Shit ain't never been safe for the "melanin-intensive", so it's hard for me to get worked up about the new security.

      Also, why is it in every "Boyz in the Hood-type" movie, the kid that wants to get off the streets and go to college is always the one that dies at the end?  What kind of message does that send?

      "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." - Alice Walker

      by DemInCville on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:38:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Growing up in Ga. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tryptamine

    in the 70's, my high school was 50-50 black and white. The classes were divided into 3 levels. The "academic" class level was 95% white. The only black kids in that class were the teachers' kids. The middle level consisted of the rest of the white kids and a few more black kids. The bottom level was all black.Almost all of that bottom level quit school. They were told institutionally they were "less than" from the 1st day of school.

    My 15 year old tells me it is very cool to at least act like you don't care about school and he goes to one of the best schools in Ga.(1500 students, avg. SAT score 1200). I can only imagine what it's like for children, black or white, without a strong support system.

    Recommended.

    What history and experience teach is this-that nations and governments have never learned anything from history... Hegel

    by jayb on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:56:11 PM PDT

    •  Truer words were never spoken. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jayb

      I graduated from high school in the top 2% (saying something in a high school with a graduating class of +2000); graduated college summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, went to an Ivy law school.

      But what did my high school guidance counselor advise me when we all had our Jr. year interviews?  Same as he told all the other black kids ..."go to a trade school."  

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

    But your argument is flawed.  You start by trying to disprove the statement - 'many [African American] kids feel that academic accomplishment is somehow anathema' - but then you go on to prove why it exists - because poor black and latino kids don't have the same opportunities and exposure middle to upper class white kids do.  I'm sure there are people out there who may say that the quoted statement is due to ingrained genetic predispositions, but I don't see how you can get that from what the commenters said.  It seems they were talking from experience with inner city kids.

    If you have a community without the tools and outlets that would encourage academic performance and therefore sees no benefit in academic performance, you don't just call people closeminded white racists for pointing it out, you try to find ways to give them the tools and outlets.  You give a very good summation of why the problem exist, but you don't prove that the problem doesn't exist.

    Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

    by scionkirk on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:57:16 PM PDT

    •  NO, NO, NO!! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bic momma

      You start by trying to disprove the statement - 'many [African American] kids feel that academic accomplishment is somehow anathema' - but then you go on to prove why it exists -

      You are assuming that black/ non-white kids "feel" negatively about academic accomplishment.  I'm saying that isn't true at all ...black people value academic achievement.

      Repeat: black people highly value academic achievement.

      Whether or not we have the resources to reify that value, that's another story.  But the value itself is firmly embedded in black culture.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:17:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not arguing with you (0+ / 0-)

        But there has to be a reason that drop-out rates are much higher for blacks and latinos.  If one group of people are dropping-out at higher percentages than others, there has to be a reason.  You make a very good argument as to what that reason is.  I don't have a problem with your statements, I think your argument can be made better, and to people not already converted, if you move it away from opposition to the phrasing of the problem and more towards a problem/solution type argument.

        Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

        by scionkirk on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:25:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  To flesh this out, a bit, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bic momma

      the original diary started with the premise that

      It's hard in our culture not to hold stereotypes about groups of people with whom we have little or no direct interaction."  

      Most whites don't have enough immersion into black culture, and especially into black home culture, to see the very existence of the value of academic achievement.  They dont' hear the family anecdotes.  They don't hear the fights, the admonitions to get that homework done, they don't see the respect paid to teachers, professors, and other professional people who have succeeded.  All they see are the RESULTS ...the OUTCOME of a lack of resources.  So they think that black people's attitudes and feelings must match the outcome.  They DON'T match the outcome.  I'm saying that academic failure occurs IN SPITE of a rich cultural tradition that values an education  --- and that it happens because there's a lack of resources, not a lack of esteem for the value of education.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:22:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  i agree (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    4thepeople

    that this problem is more linked to racial stereotypes than the reality seen in classrooms.  and these stereotypes help us justify the inequities we see in our larger society.  they don't have to be true, or wholly true.  they just have to explain the world in ways that let us believe that there is nothing we can do about it so....

    for example, when i got my first job in education, it was in a third grade classroom where 80% of the students were native spanish speakers.  I loved this job, and when descibing it to a coworker at a restaurant where i waited tables (education pays...)he expressed complete disdain for this posision (as if teaching in another - more white/english speaking environment - would be more worthy...) "well, i don't see why they would even want to come to our country if they didn't want to learn the language..."  I was like, "For christsakes, THEYRE EIGHT!"

    but the lack of "coolness" of academic acheivement   still remains a problem (for a variety of students reguardless of race) and the diarist proposes no solutions outside of a radical redisribution of wealth.  A teacher can't do that.  what can a teacher do?

    •  A teacher can ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DemInCville

      start using the word 'herpetologist.'

      The fact is, when America was segregated, black people were taught by black people ...and those teachers demanded the best because they expected the best.

      A lot of teachers really don't expect non-white kids to do better ...and this is not as true of poor white kids, because there really is a strong "you can pull yourself up by your bootstaps" ethos that runs through the teaching of poor white kids.  But somehow, there isn't that expectation of poor black kids ...there's a sense of futility that sets in among teachers.

      Teachers can advocate a whole lot more than they do for resources for students, and teachers can way raise their expectations and their demands.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:28:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I remember the scene in the movie Malcolm X (0+ / 0-)

        where young Malcolm, president of his class, and the only black student, tells his white sixth grade teacher that he wants to be a lawyer. The teacher replies, "but Malcom, you're a nigger.  You can't be a lawyer. You should become a carpenter.  People like you, they'll give you lots of business."

        While I doubt a teacher today would use a racial epithet, I know of situations where administrators have said of black (and poor white) students in general, "they don't want to learn" or "they can't learn." If the kids are being stigmatized by educators and other authority figures from the day they walk in the door, where are they supposed to get the tools to overcome that so they can be successful?

        "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." - Alice Walker

        by DemInCville on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:54:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What can a teacher do? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      4thepeople

      What my teachers did, for which I am eternally grateful, is not give up on me.

      My life's direction has been influenced by maybe a half dozen teachers who wouldn't let me take the easy way out, I've been given the chance to thank many of those teachers but not all of them.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

      by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:30:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is so, so, so true. (0+ / 0-)

        If you ask almost anyone, rich or poor, who has made a success of their academic life, they'll point to one or two teachers who allowed them to be 'teacher's pet.'  I had a couple -- they're the ones who actually paid for me to go to foreign films, paid my way into plays, lent me books I never would have heard of, brought in their obscure academic journals for me to read ...really treated me as special...and called bullshit to that guidance counselor who advised me to go to trade school, when my self-confidence was in the sub-sub-sub-basement about getting into college at all.

        If you're a teacher ...let a disadvantaged kid be your pet!

        Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

        by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:54:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry that's not what I'm talking about (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          4thepeople

          I'm talking about teachers who were unwilling to let a kid side-step his/her potential.

          Teachers who took a personal interest in their students lives.

          I never had anyone pay me to go to a foreign film, or a domestic film for that matter.  No playing my way into plays, either.

          Whatever live you lived I did not have that privilege, I have been working since I was 14 years old.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

          by redfish on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:11:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Ni hou ma (0+ / 0-)

    I used to work with a lot of Cantonese speakers who loved Kung Fu movies.

    Their kids and/or little brothers and sisters were going to go to Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA or a Claremont College or there would be hell to pay.

    Their kids and/or little brothers and sisters who grew up speaking a non-Indo European language did pretty well on standardized tests written by whites for whites.  So did kids who spent some of their formative years on rafts escaping from Vietnam.

    •  Yes, it is very true that some immigrants (0+ / 0-)

      have come over and pushed their kids hard to succeed.  Now ...do the detective work, and work backwards.  Parents were middle-class in their home countries?  That helps a lot.  Ethnic group has a structure for lending money within that group?  Helps a lot. Teachers extend mentorships to those students?  Helps tremendously.  

      I watched (and loved) the movie Spellbound, about the national spelling bee. Several of the kids who made it to the end were Indian -- at least, first generation American kids of Indian parents.  But from what I could tell, ALL of the parents of those kids were middle-class, educated people -- who grew up, no doubt, comfortably esconced in a culture that expected them to succeed, in a culture that didn't spread the stereotype that they had no regard for learning.

      Left. Because it's right. Beware the terrible simplifiers!

      by 4thepeople on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:15:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One theory I heard (1+ / 0-)

    a long time ago is that young black chidren are regarded as cute and encouraged to be funny and outspoken by early teachers. When they become teenagers, the new teachers feal threatend by the kids who are only doing what they have always done. This ends up confusing, hurting and discouraging the teens, making them resent education.

    Just when they think they've got the answer, I change the question. -Roddy Piper

    by McGirk on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:59:37 PM PDT

  •  Well Said!!! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    4thepeople

    Thank you so much for writing this.  You said it so much better than I ever could, especially the stuff that goes through my head whenever I visit the Museum of Natural History.

    "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." - Alice Walker

    by DemInCville on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:05:17 PM PDT

  •  Judith Rich Harris in 'Nurture Assumption' (0+ / 0-)

    says that the views of the parents are less important than the views of the peer group.

    The book is very well researched and annotated, and it just raises hell with these arguments that it is the home environment that is chiefly responsible for the attitudes the kids have.

    One of her key points is evolutionary psychology: the kids are raising each other because they are the people they will be living with, not their parents.

    My personal experience coincides with this view. I have always felt that I was raising the kids in opposition to the peer group.

    I also felt that the society we live in has no culture to speak of because it is changing very fast, and the transmission of culture has been given over to the television commercials for consumer behavior.

    Kids are impulsive when they are encouraged in that way of thinking. It is no big surprise that GWBush is their elected leader.

    Our parents and grandparents came home from WWII and swore their kids would never have to go through such emotional stress as they had just endured.

    They may have overdone it, eh?

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