Daily Kos

Science Friday: The Great Library

Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:23:41 AM PDT

The following was inspired by the book Remembering Hypatia, written by Brian Trent.

The Roman Empire is crumbling, the fragments of the classical world regrouping in Egypt when Thasos, son of an ill-fated scholar, meets Hypatia of Alexandria. Astronomer, mathematician, and philosopher at a time when women were shunned from learning, Hypatia is a daring visionary in a world about to change forever.

We take science for granted these days, we trust that knowledge hard won will not be lost. But it wasn't always so. There was a time when books were extremely expensive, no cheap form of large scale mass copying existed, few people could even read. And in those days, libraries contained manuscripts and work that was unavailable anywhere else. Once, millennia ago there were many such repositories.

The Greeks spread the seed of early science far and wide, following in the wake of blood and flesh carved through Eurasia by Alexander the Great. But as Greece was replaced by Rome, and Rome was brought down slowly and painfully by corruption and religious superstition, there came to be a time when only one library was left. It was the Great Library, in a Hellenistic city called Alexandria, in ancient Egypt.

The Great Library of Alexandria was founded in the 3rd century, BC, and stood for centuries. It was much more than an archive, it was a laboratory, a museum, a university, and research institution, in which some of the most advanced early science was stored, carried out, or refined.


The Great Library of Alexandria in reconstruction, as it may have once appeared. Illustration courtesy University of Texas.

One of the first librarians was Eratosthenes, a gifted geographer and mathematician who correctly computed the size and shape of the earth. He went on to propose a planetary grid of reference lines to aid navigation; longitude and latitude. Here was where Euclid derived the principles of modern geometry. The library may have contained further analysis on the work of Democritus, who proposed the atom, that the Milky Way was composed of distant stars, and that around these stars might be other, very different worlds:

"In some worlds there is no Sun and Moon, in others they are larger than in our world, and in others more numerous. In some parts there are more worlds, in others fewer ... There are some worlds devoid of living creatures or plants or any moisture."--Democritus

Later Alexandrian thinkers were likely busy approximating the volume of cones using thin slices, and studying the relationship between the volume of a sphere and the area of a circle. These individuals were standing on the doorstep of Calculus, physics, chemistry, engineering, and modern astronomy. Still others followed in the footstep of Hippocrates, wondering if disease was caused by tiny animals, or if afflictions would one day be understood and treated.

Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why, there would be no end of divine things -- Hippocrates

The last Librarian of Alexandria was Hypatia. She was by all accounts, a genius of mathematics and physics, one of the few widely admired female natural philosophers:

There was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. ... Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more.


Hypatia lectures in one of the many halls (Enlarge). Reconstruction of the library of Alexandria interior created by Stefan Viljoen using Moray and PovRay software, inspired by a reconstruction in Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Hypatia added by Karen Wehrstein, from a contemporary portrait painted on wood exclusively for this post and your enjoyment. Artist's Tip Jar

All these people and discoveries, and many more, are mentioned in passing as items which may have existed at the Great Library. Sadly, we will never know for sure. Of the library itself, only a few words and references have survived into our modern era: In 414 AD, so the story goes, a faction of fundamentalist Christians, led by a shadowy character named Peter, ostensibly endorsed by Cyril, Pope of Alexandria, dragged Hypatia through the streets by her hair, beat her to a pulp inside their Church, and then scraped the living flesh off her bones with broken tiles and abalone shells. Her remains were cremated; there is no grave. Cryril was made a Saint, a status he enjoys to this day.

The Great Library was ransacked and set afire shortly after Hypatia's murder. What little remained was finally destroyed by invading Muslims in 646 AD; the new conquerers burned the library's store of books to heat bathwater. Europe and the Mediterranean plunged headlong into the Dark Ages. The reputation of the Great Library fell into relative obscurity, some scholars even relegated it to the status of a myth, or opined that it was hyped to be larger than life.

In 2004, a team of Polish and Egyption archeologists found the remains of what is believed to be the Great Library. It is, if anything, larger than legend. Among the impressive ruins are thirteen sweeping lecture halls with raised podiums, estimated to be able to accomodate over 5,000 students. The last great bastion of early scientific thought it now seems was indeed a reality, the flicker of knowledge it preserved once burned brightly in the ancient city of Alexandria.

One has to wonder just where the human race would be today, if that flame had not been snuffed out. Would our planet now be a poisoned nuclear wasteland in which gangs of semi-feral children chase rats in the shadows of dilapidated glass and metal towers on the outskirts of Bartertown? Or would disease be a factum of history stored in the memory of immortal human/AI hybrids plying a sea of stars, our first interstellar ships unloading genetically engineered people onto the distant shores of new worlds? For better or for worse, and in part because of the destruction of places like the Great Library of Alexandria, the end of that story lays in our future, not in our past.

  • ::

Tags: science friday, library (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 316 comments

    •  Greatly intriguing, DS, and thanks (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DarkSyde, blue armadillo

      but I'm not sure your latter possibility sounds all that positive to me, given that someone (a latter-day Dick Cheney?) will probably be deciding just how those genes are engineered and to what end those "people" will be "unloaded" on other planets - a la the aliens in Independence Day?. And no, I'm no Luddite, just someone struck by how much we can do now and how little human nature has changed.

      Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

      by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:28:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Destruction (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mrkvica, Blue387, mary4, jlb1972, J Royce

        "But as Greece was replaced by Rome, and Rome was brought down slowly and painfully by corruption and religious superstition..."

        Sounds like the America of today, following the same path toward destruction.

        •  Also sounds like the Iraq Museum (11+ / 0-)

          Who else here fell into grief during the first days of the Iraq war as the Iraqi Museum of Antiquites was looted and the ancient site of Babylon nearly destroyed by U.S. military earthworks?  The Mayans were right.  History and human barbarism comes 'round in circles.  We Americans have now had our turn at destroying a country's riches that in fact belong to all of humanity.

          While it is true that many Iraqi antiquities have been found and returned, as of November last year it was slow going.  Further, the accounts of returned items do not include the thousands of small, irreplaceable items that were summarily destroyed.  Like Alexandria's library, gone forever.

          http://www.globalpolicy.org/...

          •  That reminds me more of (14+ / 0-)

            The famous Death of Archimedes during the Sack of Syracuse.  Just Like our commanders, the invading Roman general knew the worth of Archimedes and his  genius (how not when his inventions had destroyed the first invading fleet?) and gave strict orders that he not be harmed and brought ot him at once for protection.

            Unforunately by the time that got translated to the grunt in the street, during the chaos of the sack the "brought to me at once" part was all that got through.  Thus when Achimedes brushed off the soldier sent to fetch him because he was busy working on an equation, the legionaire ran him through for his rudeness.

            And in a single unthinking moment of rage, an illiterate, anonymous grunt destroyed a mind that was at least the equal of Newton's, Einstein's, and even possibly DaVinci's.  But such destruction is an almost inevtiable part of war, and a story as old as time.  

            How many of the greatest works of enginerring and art that Humanity has ever created, bear the legend "later destroyed during the war of..."?

            Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

            by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:20:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  'Don't disturb my circles' (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Magorn

              is what were reputedly Archimedes last words...

              probably the legionair didn't even knew who he had slain until it was too late... and then he must have been cross at himslef for having ignored Marcellus' command.

              Gore-Warner in 08!

              by Frederik on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:19:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  See Archimedes' text revealed today, 4 pm PST (4+ / 0-)

              Finally, after more than 1,000 years in obscurity, the last unreadable pages of the works of ancient mathematician Archimedes are being deciphered, thanks to x-ray vision at SLAC. This research, which is underway this week at the Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory (SSRL), will offer the most complete record of Archimedes' works since the middle ages.

              A team of scientists is using a special x-ray imaging technique, called x-ray fluorescence (XRF) imaging, to finally unlock these scientific secrets, hidden from view since antiquity on a goatskin parchment manuscript. The manuscript uniquely records several of the works of the legendary 3rd century B.C. mathematician, who famously exclaimed "Eureka!" upon discovering how to measure the volume of a solid while sitting in his bathtub. Archimedes' work is considered to be the foundation of modern mathematics.

              The text of the Archimedes Palimpsest presented a monumental challenge for imagers to reveal and scholars to decode. In the 10th century, an anonymous scribe copied Archimedes' treatises in the original Greek onto the parchment. But three centuries later, a monk "palimpsested" the parchment: he scraped away the Archimedes text, cut the pages in half, turned them sideways, and copied Greek Orthodox prayers onto the recycled pages. Adding further injury, forgers in the early 20th century painted religious imagery on several pages in an attempt to elevate the manuscript’s value. The result was the near obliteration of Archimedes' work, except for the faintest traces of ink still embedded in the parchment.

              Archimedes at SLAC

              Live Webcast 4 pm PDT (7 pm EDT)

          •  The Harp of Ur (4+ / 0-)

            The Harp of Ur, the oldest surviving musical instrument, was destroyed immediately.  It was made of wood with gold overlay.  It was one of three instruments found in 1929 by archeologists excavating the ancient city of Ur.

            A man in England is building a replica

        •  There is another story (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jlb1972

          There are actually three or more stories about the destruction of the Great Library, and this is not necessarily the most likely one.  In fact, that it's destruction is variously ascribed to Julius Caesar or other Romans, the Christians and the Muslims, suggests that there is a great deal of legend and history as propaganda woven in here.

          Obviously there was such a library, and it's loss, like the destruction of the Baghdad Library by the Mongols was errible.  But the legend you relate isn't the only version.

          John McCain--he's not who you think he is.

          by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:48:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All three may capture some part (0+ / 0-)

            of the real truth.

            Fundamentalists have been hostile ot knowledge in all eras.  Anything outside their narrow canon is--or can be--a threat

            We need not think alike to love alike -- Ferenc Dávid

            by ogre on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:26:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like our own Bu$hCo FUNDIES banning books... (0+ / 0-)

              from the moment they stole the office, they fought a 3 year battle with the ACLU and Library Assn. -  WHY?

              Simple - Bu$hCo wanted to BAN BOOKS! Took 3 years, but the Supreme Court said that they could take the PEOPLE's arguments against banning books to Court - Bu$hCo backed off because they didn't want anyone to know. Google and find out for yourself!

              Human nature hasn't changed much - why?  Gotta keep people's minds down so they can be ripped off by the elite.

              HAD ENOUGH?
              ----------
              Gandhi said: 'We must be the change we want to see in the world.'

              •  Never tell people to (0+ / 0-)

                google for themselves.

                Offer links.

                When you insist people do the work without offering some proof, you get blown off.

                As for me, I had enough before Bush was selected....

                We need not think alike to love alike -- Ferenc Dávid

                by ogre on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 03:00:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I like 'errible' Mimi n/t (0+ / 0-)

            Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

            by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:54:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Actually it's exactly like the U.S. today (4+ / 0-)

          Nobel Prize winning economist, and Prof. of Economic History at Washington University in St. Louis, wrote in his book Structure and Change in Economic History that the Roman Empire collapsed because wealth and power became concentrated (6 senators owned 50% of North Africa), the wealthy and powerful used their influence to avoid paying taxes, shifting the tax bruden down upon the subsitence farmers, many would have to choose between feeding their families and paying taxes.

          As a result Rome was always hard up for cash to fund its defence.  At the time the tactical edge between the barbarians and the romans had thinned, meaning Rome needed larger armies, not smaller, and meaning Rome needed larger tax revenues not smaller. The result is now history.

          A similar event occured in medieval Japan. In that case Japan.  IN both cases these societies did not fall to superior foes - in the case of Japan there was none - they simply collapsed. In both cases, multi-centuried dark ages ensued.

          The most startling thing was that in both cases, the people with the most to lose, the wealthy and powerful, were also the ones least willing to pay for the continuance of the state.

          Its a case of greed.  

          The pattern repeats itself over and over in history. At least one of ancient Egypt's kingdomes collapsed this way (I believe it was the middle Kingdom), Byzantium before the battle of Manzikert, Hapsburg Spain, Bourbon France, Romanov Russia, Coolege/Hoover America.  

          The last case, resulted in the great depression - which paved the way for the rise of Hitler, WWII, and the great depression.  A dark age was narrowly avoided.  

          The case of Byzantium before Manzikurt in 1071 is perhaps the best example.  In 1025 Basil II died. At the time he was poised to retake southern Italy and was the most powerful state in the Middle East, at a time that the Muslim states were crumbling - meaning at Basils death Byzantium was poised to retake the Middle East west of Iran. At the time Byzantium was underwritten by small farm owners in anatolia/asia minor who also formed the back bone of the army.  This system worked because small farmers broaden economic power, increased economic demand and provided soldiers who had a stake in the defence of the realm.  However, Bazil II didn't leave any heirs, and a vacuum was filled by two aristocratic families forming an oligopoly of plutocratic interests.  The property of the small farmers was transfered to the wealthy. The oligopoly, fearing the army, starved it of funds, and hired low rent mercenaries. At the last minute an Emporer arrived who had the schutzpa to reverse things, but it was too late.  The Seljuk Turks road in from the Central Asian steps to champion the cause of Islam, and defeated the Byzantines at Manzikurt in 1071. The result of the battle was all of Anatolia/Asia Minor was lost to the Turks.  Byzantium, now prostrate, had to call on the west for help, which triggered the Crusades. In one of those Crusades, the crusaders sacked Constinople itself and set up a successor kindgome that lasted 60 years. Once again Byzantium rallied, but once again it was too little too late.

          That seems to remind me of the idiots that are running our government.

          History just keeps on repeating itself all over again.

          If we don't wise up, we are going down. Rome was the light of the world.  And it lost out to a few roming bands of barbarians that were half starved most of the time.  It's incomprehensible.

          By the way, there is new research that wants to suggest that Rome didn't collapse do to concentrated wealth. (Wonder who is funding that research?) and their is a school of thought that suggest that Rome collapsed because its commercial economy collapsed.

          That latter argument is simple the same as the one North suggests.  When wealth becomes concentrated, demand collapses - that is, unless you can get China's central bank to loan property holders at artificially low rates.

          In the case of Rome, the same guy that gave Rome Christianity, Constantine, is also the guy that planted the seed for Rome's distruction.  Constitine created the latifunda system, which turned farm workers into serf, that is a slave tied to the land (as apposed to chattle tied to a person).  This took those made serfs out of the commercial economy, making them subsistence consumers, and collapsing demand.  

          We are going through the same process now. Bush & the Neocons actually want a return to the medieval age. They think that the dark ages were actually a better arrangement.  

          If something doesn't happen soon to reverse the course we are on the collapse will occur, and it will make the great depression look like childs play.

          The new deal resurrected the western world.

    •  Thank you for this thorough historical article (5+ / 0-)

      about the way people have historically explored science.  I am reminded of the years when I homeschooled my own children and we followed the same trail.  Knowing all this makes it more important to make sure that we don't regress to the dark ages.

      I know there are many other homeschoolers who fall into that false-religious path of creationism being as 'acceptable' as the scientific 'evolution'.

      However, I believe if they want creatism in school, then put it into a philosophy class or put it into a international-religion class that teaches all views.

      Religion and science are two different entities.  

    •  Great Diary! (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rktect, mary4, khereva, blue armadillo

      Reading this diary and all the insightful comments that it is generating just makes my morning a bit brighter.

      I'm simultaneously pained by the willful ignorance in the world today, and thrilled by the intelligent comments in this thread.

      Thank you, DarkSyde! Thank you, Kossacks!

      "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

      by annan on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 05:20:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I love this topic (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      borkitekt

      What people often forget about science is that most of what they read about the history of science is myth. A lot of the myth is designed to prove modern western civilization is superior, and that other nations were pagan savages by comparison.

      We are taught that it was Columbus who proved the world was round and that up until his time the ancients thought the world was flat. That myth has been traced back to Washington Irving who also overlooked the fact that it was the Vikings who first came to America from Europe.

      Wikipedia gives the credit for the discovery of a geographic mile as a standard related to the circumference of the earth to Ole Roemer

      The geographical mile is a unit of length determined by 1 minute of arc along the Earth's equator, approximately equal to 1855 metres (6087.15 international feet).

      The unit is not used much; it is closely related to the nautical mile, which was originally determined as 1 minute of arc along a great circle of the Earth and is nowadays defined to be exactly 1852 metres.

      The Danish and German geographical mile (mil and Meile respectively) is 4 minutes of arc, and was defined as approximately 7421.5 metres by the astronomer Ole Rømer of Denmark. In Norway and Sweden, this 4 minute geographical mile was mainly used at sea (sjømil), up to the beginning of the 20th century.

      Wikipedia erroniously credits Roemer with the definition of a unit that Herodotus correctly credits to the Egyptians and science erroniously credits to Eratosthenes.

      That is nothing new really, the Greeks plagarized many or most of their discoveries and inventions in science, mathematics, philosophy, religion, history, architecture, medicine, law, and cannons of proportion from those who went before them, and then added on something more besides.

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 05:55:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Greeks tried to (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rktect

        rigorously prove Euclid's findings, even some of the axioms that were intuitively assumed to be true.

        Aristotle developed the principles of logic to make sure that his reasoning in the areas of math and religion were sound.

        Eratosthenes showed amazing insight and problem-solving skills in estimating the Earth's circumference. And his sieve is a great tool for teaching about prime numbers.

        It's rough out here on the campaign trail: kissing hands, shaking babies. ... Pat Paulsen

        by Trim Your Bush on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:56:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So how do you figure whoever Herodotus talked to (0+ / 0-)

          made his estimate, centuries before Eratosthenes was born? Do you think the knowledge developed from the use of Mehkert and Bey?

          Hoe about those Pythagorean triples?

          The Greeks tried to add rigor and state the general case to a number of pre existing but less rigorous practical solutions.

          The examples of the classical probles of Greek antiquity found in the Rhind and the EMLR are clever if nothing else, and the Egyptian Circle at Saqara dates to c 3000 BC

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:31:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Eratosthenes measurement of the earth (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lashe

      Eratosthenes (Greek Ἐρατοσθένης) (276 BC - 194 BC), gets a distance in round numbers using pre-existing standards of measure but is credited by science with a discovery. Why?

      Herodotus(484 BC-ca. 425 BC) had already written that the distance from Alexandria to Syene was 5000 stadia.

      Herodotus wtrittings were in the Library at Alexandria administered by Eratosthenes and got into considerable  detail about the Egyptians measures of the earth or geography. Why does science credit Eratosthenes with this research?

      In his history Herodotus observes
      VI. Further, the length of the seacoast of Egypt itself is sixty “schoeni” --of Egypt, that is, as we judge it to be, reaching from the Plinthinete gulf to the Serbonian marsh, which is under the Casian mountain--between these there is this length of sixty schoeni. [2] Men that have scant land measure by feet; those that have more, by miles; those that have much land, by parasangs; and those who have great abundance of it, by schoeni. [3] The parasang is three and three quarters miles, and the schoenus, which is an Egyptian measure, is twice that.

      VI. autis de autês esti Aiguptou mêkos to para thalassan hexêkonta schoinoi, kata hêmeis diaireomen einai Aigupton apo tou Plinthinêteô kolpou mechri Serbônidos* limnês, par' hên to Kasion oros teinei: tautês ôn apo hoi hexêkonta schoinoi eisi. [2] hosoi men gar geôpeinai eisi anthrôpôn, orguiêisi memetrêkasi tên chôrên, hosoi de hêsson geôpeinai, stadioisi, hoi de pollên echousi, parasangêisi, hoi de aphthonon liên, schoinoisi. [3] dunatai de ho parasangês triêkonta stadia, ho de schoinos, metron eon Aiguption, hexêkonta stadia."

      IX. From Heliopolis to Thebes is nine days' journey by river, and the distance is six hundred and eight miles, or eighty-one schoeni. [2] This, then, is a full statement of all the distances in Egypt: the seaboard is four hundred and fifty miles long; and I will now declare the distance inland from the sea to Thebes : it is seven hundred and sixty-five miles. And between Thebes and the city called Elephantine there are two hundred and twenty-five miles.

      81 schoeni = 608 miles
      1 schoeni = 7.5miles = 1/10 degree = 11.1 km
      1 Parasang = 30 furlongs

      If Eratosthenes(Ερατοσθένης) (276 BC - 194 BC), the librarian at Alexandria, is the one who made the discovery, how did he get the information back to Herodotus?

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:08:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ancient geography (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Lashe

        For a very small group of historians who specialize in standards of measure and can track the standards back in time through Herodotus and others its really a fascinating question as to who did first make the calculation of the circumference of the earth and whether it was to some degree the result of the circumnavigation of Libya by the Phoenicians under Neco I that made it possible or whether it goes back farther still.

        The Romans for example are often noted to have as a standard of measure a mille passus (thousand paces)of which there are 75 to a degree, but the Greeks who preceeded them had a mia chillioi or thousand. Both are composed of stadia which are the same length.

        Likewise our nautical mile is a standard tied to a degree of the earths equatorial circumference. How far back in time does this knowledge of the earths circumference go?

        Eratosthenes results, that make the degree 700 stadia, imply the circumference of the earth is 252,000 stadia and would be off by 1 part in 6 if the stadia he were using were Greek or Roman stadia of 185 m.

        If his results were acurate his stadia would have measured 158.57 m. As it happens this works out to 302 Egyptian royal cubits.

        The Egyptians had a very well documented standard of measure called the khet which was 100 royal cubits in length and was the side of an 3ht or field called a st3t.

        In Greek and Roman times the Egyptian fields were generally farmed in clusters of three with one left fallow, one plowed and sowed in grain and another planted in hay for the plow animal.

        This means the Egyptians clusters of fields would have been surveyed by a standard of 300 royal cubits that Eratosthenes could have found useful in his work.

        From the information compiled in his library Eratosthenes would have known that the last time the experiment had been performed, on the summer solstice at local noon on the Tropic of Cancer, the Sun would have appeared at the zenith, directly overhead — though Syene was in fact slightly north of the tropic and the same conditions as previously recorded were no longer true in his time.

        He also would have discovered in his reading, measurements such as those recorded by Herodotus giving the distance between Alexandria and Syene and information to the effect that the last time the experiment had been performed in his hometown of Alexandria, the angle of elevation of the Sun had been 7° south of the zenith at the same time although that also was no longer true in his time.

        Assuming that Alexandria was due north of Syene- Alexandria is in fact on a more westerly longitude- and knowing from his reading of Herodotus that the distance from Alexandria to Syene was 5000 stadia of 300 Egyptian royal cubits of which there were 700 to a degree he would have known that the distance was a little over 7/360 of the great circle of the Earth

        The distance between the cities was about 5,000 stadia or 7 degrees, 1 itrw, and 7 khet

        This recognized that the Egyptian itrw of 70 stadia was 1/10 a value of 700 stadia per degree, with a great circle circumference of 252,000 stadia. The methods discovered by Eratosthenes' were used again by Posidonius to check the results about 150 years later.

        Much confusion has existed because the Attic Greeks used a stadion of 600 pous of 304.8 mm = 185 m which doesn't agree with the reported calculations. Similarly the Roman Stadium of 625 pes of 296 mm which also equals 185m has to be rejected. Its worth observing that Eratosthenes was not an Attic Greek but rather a resident of Alexandria in Egypt which had since its conquest by the Persians and incorporation in their empire used a stadia of 300 Egyptian royal cubits or 157.5 m.

        Many otherwise knowledgable people have convinced themselves that Eratosthenes' reported value was in error because of this discrepancy. Archimedes, Posidonius, Marinus and Ptolemy also used stadia which were different from the Attic, Ionian and Athenia stadia.

        Marinus and Ptolemy used a stadia composed of 600 remen which were 5/4 the pous or pes and 5/6 the mh t3 or land cubit and measured 500 to a degree making 1 degree 112.5 km by their reckoning.

        For reference, the stadion at Olympia measures 192.3 m. With a widespread use throughout antiquity, there were many variants of a stadion, from as low as 157 m up to 211 m, but it is usually stated as 185.4 m.

        The Greek root stadios means to have standing. Stadions are used to measure the sides of fields.

        In the time of Herodotus the standard Attic stadion used for distance measure is 600 pous of 308.4 mm egual to 185 m. so that 600 stadia egual one degree and are combined at 8 to a mia chilioi or thousand which measures the boustredon or path of yoked oxen as a distance of a thousand orguia, taken as one orguia wide which defines an aroura or thousand of land and at 10 agros or chains equal to one nauticle mile of 1850 m.

        Several centuries later Marinus and Ptolemy used 500 stadia to a degree but their stadi were composed of 600 remen of 370 mm and measured 222 m so the measurement of the degree was the same.

        The same is also true for Eratosthenes who used 700 stadia of 157.5 m or 300 Egyptian royal cubits to a degree, and for Aristotle, Poseidonus and Archimedes whose stadia likewise measured the same degree.

        The 1771 Encyclopædia Britannica mentions a measure named acæna which was a rod ten (greek) feet long used in measuring land.

        In relatively modern times Gqueen Elizabeth I changed the length of a mile from the old Roman value of 5000 feet to a mile to 5280 feet to a mile so now there are no longer 75 miles to a degree.

        This allowed the French to argue that their metric system, based on Gabriel Moutons research on the Roman Milliare (or mille passus), was geo-commensurate and thus a better standard than the British System.

        The expert authority of science was used to overthrow the divine rights of kings to set the standards, in support of the French revolution, Subsequently Napoleon went to Egypt where his savants could reassess the classical values.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:13:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sort of (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rktect

          In relatively modern times Gqueen Elizabeth I changed the length of a mile from the old Roman value of 5000 feet to a mile to 5280 feet to a mile so now there are no longer 75 miles to a degree.

          Actually, the English Parliament decided that in 1593 to settle the question over whether the mile was 5000 feet, the old Roman one, or 8 furlongs, which was 5280.  It wasn't the Queen.

          At the time the furlong and rod (40 rods to the furlong) where used for surveying property while the mile was really only used for measuring rough distances.  Rather than change the length of the furlong and rod, they changed the mile for perfectly rational reasons (at the time).

          •  If people are taxed according to their land (0+ / 0-)

            and you change the definition of the standard by which the land is measured it amounts to a change in the tax rate.

            Not only that but you change the international medium of exchange because you are changing the length, width, and breadth of almost every measurable commodity based on the foot, and essentially quite a lot of money changes hands.

            The British were not the first to come up with this trick, the Romans were famous for it, but it was the French use of scientific authority rather than the whim of a monarch to back the change that had the widest repercussions.

            Originally all of these were different unit fractions of the same standard, but the trick was to know how to convert an equivalence between say board feet or yards of fabric.

            Richard Arnold's Customs of London, c. 1503,
            contains the following sentence ...
            The length of a barley corn 3 times make an ynche (inch)and
            12 ynches make a fote (foot) and
            3 fote make a yerde (yard) and
            5 qaters (quarters) of the yerde make an elle.
            5 fote make a pace.
            125 pace make a furlong
            and 8 furlong make an English myle

            The name statute mile goes back to Queen Elizabeth I of England who redefined the mile from 5000 fote to (5280 feet) by statute in 1593, increasing the length of the furlong from 625 pes (or Roman feet) (185 m) to 660 English feet.

            When the Roman Milliare was 5000 pes the Roman stadium was 625 pes and 185 m. In a square Milliare there were still 64 square stadiums but there were also 25 square actus of 25 acres.

            A Heridia was 1.25 acres so there were 20 Heridis to a square Actus. Each Jugerum was half a Heridium and Half a Jugerum was an acuna. A Centuria was 100 Heredia or 125 acres or 5 square Actus. In a square acre there were 40,000 square pes or pedes and each acre had a side of 200 pes.

            When the Myle was 5000 fote the furlong was 625 fote and 185 m, each acre had a side of 200 fote.

            When the Mile was made 5280 feet the furlong became 220 yards. Each square furlong was divided into 10 acres or 8 Heridia. Each acre measured a perch by a furlong.

            The Romans had conquered (much of) Britain, when it was inhabited by Celts, and Picts bringing with them their mile to be adopted by Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and Nordic people west of the Rhine while east of the Rhine the standard was the Greek stadion.

            When the international mile became legal in mid-1959, the survey mile was retained for measurements derived from U.S. cadastral surveys.

            In Denmark and most of Germany the mile in the 19th century was a 7.5 km geographical mile used as a sea mile or rast in Scandinavia In Norway and Sweden, a mile or mil is  a measure of 10km

            In Ireland the Irish mile of 2240 yards or 2048.3m  was used legally until 1826

            The 'Collins English Dictionary' defines a sea mile as 1828.8 m (6000 feet) being an Imperial unit of length, formerly used in  navigation.

            The  Russian verst of 1066.8 m or 3500 feet or 1168 yards of 500 sazhen was also used east of the Rhine.

            The Milliare Scotia in 1503 was 1600 elle of 1616.8 mm or 3200 Greek pous or 2560 remen, where 1 Elle was 2 Greek pous. In 1595 the  Milliare Scotia was 5 minutes of arc of the great circle of the earth or 9.25 km. The  Milliare Scotia after 1595 was 80 chains of 24 elle of 2 remen or 2.22 km and 1814.2 m or 1984 yards or 320 falls

            The Italian mile was 1820 m or 1467 yards

            The Spanish mile was 1 legua of 4597.6 m or 5028 yards

            The Austrian Meile was 7585.9 m or 8296 yards of 240 Ruten or rods or 400 Klafter, orguia, or fathoms.

            Imagine how much fun and profit a skilled accountant could have taking advantage of the round off error.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:59:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I still don't know how they did it w/out a zero? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rktect

          I don't know how you can do any math without a zero and arabic numerals.

          •  Egyptian unit fractions were used (0+ / 0-)

            for calculations up through medieval times. Arabic numerals, or better hindu numerals, were invented by Aryabhatta c 600 BC

            Philosophical formulations concerning Shunya - i.e. emptiness or the void may have facilitated in the introduction of the concept of zero. While the zero (bindu) as an empty place holder in the place-value numeral system appears much earlier, algebraic definitions of the zero and it's relationship to mathematical functions appear in the mathematical treatises of Brahmagupta in the 7th C AD. Although scholars are divided about how early the symbol for zero came to be used in numeric notation in India, (Ifrah arguing that the use of zero is already implied in Aryabhatta) tangible evidence for the use of the zero begins to proliferate towards the end of the Gupta period. Between the 7th C and the 11th C, Indian numerals developed into their modern form, and along with the symbols denoting various mathematical functions (such as plus, minus, square root etc) eventually became the foundation stones of modern mathematical notation.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:06:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Don't forget the Greeks also assigned properties (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              rktect

              to numbers. They had good infinity and bad infinity. The Pythagoreans freaked when they realized that the diagonal of a unit square had the length of radical 2, an irrational number. A non-terminating or non-repeating decimal was blasphemy and they swore themselves to secrecy lest this abominable number become known.

              It's rough out here on the campaign trail: kissing hands, shaking babies. ... Pat Paulsen

              by Trim Your Bush on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:02:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Either way it serves as a warning (7+ / 0-)

      I'm always in awe of the fact that almost 2000 years ago these ancients had figured out the basics of the steam engine, and built such tantalizingly modern looking devices as the Antikythera mechanism  and saddened to realize how fragile that knowledge proved to be and how easily lost.

      Those Greeks and Romans who studied at Alexandria were a civilized urbane people who would, after a few minutes of ogling at some nifty technology, probably integrate quite nicely into the modern world, as in many repsect it wasn't terribly different from theirs.   They too proabably assumed that the March of Progress was a one way street and every generation after theirs would go further, dream bigger, achieve more.

      I doubt they could have ever imagined the Long Night that was mere centuries away, when the world they knew would not only stop progressing but march aressively backward into poverty, barbarism and ignorance.  

      We too, I suspect, smugly think the Dark Ages are curious historical anomaly, not something that could ever happen to OUR civilization.  But as the ruins of the Great library prove, it has happened before and it could easily happen again.

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:07:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And what of our own libraries? (15+ / 0-)

    Will future civilizations some day look back and ask what wonders once resided in the "Library of Congress", before it was sacked by the anti-science hordes?  

    Let's not find out.  Let's vote out The Barbarians at the Gates (R).

  •  Call me the eternal optimist (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Magorn, Sopiane, J Royce

    but it seems to me that all fundamentalism was able to do then was set back the pursuit of human knowledge a bit, not kill it, and while I am disturbed by the willful ignorance portrayed by fundamentalists today, and the way they have infected the populace at large, I  believe that the world as a whole is better able to withstand the desires of Taliban-esque know-nothings than Alexandria was 1600 years ago.

    I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    by incertus on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:30:10 AM PDT

    •  No WMD's then (0+ / 0-)

      by WMD's I mean nukes and SUV's

      Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

      by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:34:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mint julep, Lashe, jlb1972, J Royce, khereva

        but there wasn't a world wide web then either. The way information is so widely available today means that even if we were to follow in the path of Heinlein's Nehemiah Scudder scenario, the rest of the world wouldn't have to. When Alexandria went up, lots of stuff was lost forever. If the US tanked and managed to take Europe and/or Asia with it, there are still plenty of places that would survive and rebuild much more quickly and with a far smaller loss.

        I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

        by incertus on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:47:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let's hope ... thanks n/t (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          J Royce

          Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

          by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:55:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It depends (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Coherent Viewpoint, J Royce, khereva

          If the telcos eventually defeat Net Neutrality, then freely available knowledge will be harder to come by in these here tubes.

          Pessimistic, I know, but it's something to watch out for.  The fundies are on our side of the NN battle for now, but if the telcos win, look for a realignment; instead of just trying to take over school boards to enforce their dogma, they'll also try to take over corporate boards to have a say in the censorship.

          Ignorance is never random. - Gunnar Myrdal

          by ThomasAllen on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 05:59:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I remember when I first heard about (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Coherent Viewpoint

            about the internet (it seems so long ago), I thought, This has the possibility of being the new Alexandria. The knowledge of all the world can be placed there, and be accessible to everyone.

            One thing I didn't know, was that the new Alexandria would become a great forum for everyone to speak to everyone and exchange ideas and information.

            You're right about Stevens. He's a 4' 2" Cyril, and he would happily send bands of peters to scrape the flesh from our bones.

            When's that vote for net neutrality, again?

            "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran!" McCain doesn't need a presidency. He needs a Playstation.

            by The Gryffin on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:45:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  One of the reasons I'm so passionate about (6+ / 0-)

              Preserving the net in it current universally accessible form is because it has the potential to advance human knowledge in the same way as the printing press only increased by several orders of magnitude.  In the days of Handwritten scrolls of vellum, access  to learning was restricted essentially to only the artistocracy.  

              The printing press was a revolutionary invention because it democratized learning by making books much more affordable and thus much more widely distributed.  It is no accident that Gutenberg and the Rennaisance happened in close proximity.

              But Books still cost a lot of money as does care and storage of them.  There are too many places in the world, and indeed even in our own country where schools and communities simply cannot afford more than a very basic library.

              But, the Net Changes that radically,   for the price of a dozen hardbacks, you have access to very nearly the entire catalog of collected human knowledge.  With access to the Net, suddenly it doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, you have an equal access to knowledge.  

              This is why I truly believe that the $100 Laptop Project may one day prove to be the most effective global development program and anti-poverty program ever.There are millions of amazing minds in the third world laying fallow only because they lack acess to the basic building blocks of knowledge.  Given half a chance, who knows that they could achieve. How many more Ramanujans are there in the world just waiting to be found?

              Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

              by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:47:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Onward to Alexandripedia.org (0+ / 0-)

                Couldn't agree more, Magorn!

                This is the central argument to make in the Net Neutrality debate too. Pointing up the contradiction to the corporations' oft-stated commitment to environmentally small footprints and support for universal education.

                That being said, there is a sense in which the net, as it stands today, is an improvement on Alex. I'm convinced the library was neither public nor free...

                I'd love someone to demonstrate that it was!

                Hats off to one corporate though: Bill Gates putting PCs with high-speed access into US libraries (for free).

                OpenSource Food, Health and Education ("OpenSource" = verb).

                by All that is solid melts to air on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:11:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Distillation of Information (0+ / 0-)

                The only caveat I have to the world's worth of knowledge available on the internet is that with everyone having access to the net, everyone also can create that knowledge.  And those accessing the information and creating it may not have the credentials or the knowledge to either distill out the truth nor produce something dependable.  Yes, it is all knowledge, but not all is wise.  And, to a lesser extent, this was true before.  The difference was that with a limited amount of information produced, there could be more watch-dogging.  Now it is virtually impossible.  Communities like this one and others do what they can to aid us with this distillation process, but I still hestitate to sing the praises of the internet as a general resource...

              •  Ramanujan, another great thinker (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Coherent Viewpoint

                Truly prodigal, and prolific.

                He once took a taxi ride to visit a colleague in London. Upon his arrival, the colleague mentioned the uninteresting taxi number: 1729. Ramanujan quickly pointed out that 1729 is the sum of two different pairs of perfect cubes (12^3 +1^3 and 10^3+9^3).

                Gone too soon.

                It's rough out here on the campaign trail: kissing hands, shaking babies. ... Pat Paulsen

                by Trim Your Bush on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:15:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Wow! (11+ / 0-)

    X-ians attacking the institutiions of Science..... who would have thought?

    Welcome Back, Hillary & friends!

    by Krum on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:30:31 AM PDT

  •  Book recommendation: 'Barbarians' (6+ / 0-)

    It was written by Terry Jones of "Monte Python" fame, and its premise is that everything you learned about ancient Rome was dead wrong. The so-called "barbarians" were generally more respectful of human rights than the Romans (whose record in that department was awful; imagine the College Republicans with absolute power). In many cases, they were technologically more advanced than the Romans as well. But the Romans excelled at one thing: devoting a huge portion of their budget to the military and fielding a huge professional army.

    So how did the Romans wind up getting such good press? A few reasons: some cultures preferred oral to written traditions, the xenophobic Romans had a nasty habit of destroying the cultures they conquered, and the Roman Catholic Church finished the job by destroying whatever its leaders of the day considered "pagan." Hypatia, for example.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:30:51 AM PDT

    •  Actually... (7+ / 0-)

      The early Romans were pretty tolerant of other cultures. They used to leave the beliefs and cultures of the people they conquered in tact as long as they toed the Roman stipulated line. The druids did not and horrified the Romans with their human sacrifices and thus were prosecuted... The Jews were finally prosecuted because they had the nasty habit of revolting (68AD, 115AD, 132AD).

      Gore-Warner in 08!

      by Frederik on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:37:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Real questions about (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Dump Terry McAuliffe, rktect, Wary, Lashe

        Roman depictions of druids, as always with imperial narratives about conquered but stubborn people. The Spanish were horrified by the Aztecs' human sacrifice customs, but the Aztecs were equally horrified by the Spanish fondness for torture a la the Inquisition.

        Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

        by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:40:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a bit more nuanced (7+ / 0-)

          The druids were also the backbone and spiritual guidance and cause of military resistance against the Romans. If they had settled quietly and abided the Roman law, like for instance the various peoples in the East, the Romans would have let them keep their cultural beliefs and practices...

          It also must be said that the Romanization of the conquered areas was not necessary done by force... eventually the conquered people adapted and started living like Romans. Cultural assimilation.

          Gore-Warner in 08!

          by Frederik on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:47:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've always found it odd (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ray Radlein, jlb1972

          That a culture that Loved it Circuses, Gladiatorial games (themselves originally religous sacrifices at funerals), and often lethal theatre performances (why use fake blood when there is a slave handy?)  Should be horrified at druidic   human sacrifice (for which by the way there is virtually NO evidence beyond the writings of Ceaser)

          There has got to be more to that story

          Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

          by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:51:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Austrians have a favorite saying - (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Magorn, Coherent Viewpoint

            The best thing Austria ever did was to convince the world that Mozart was Austrian and Hitler was German

            Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

            by jlb1972 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:23:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I guess (0+ / 0-)

            the Germano-Celtic practice of burning prisoners alive in wicker cages isn't proof enough.

            Gore-Warner in 08!

            by Frederik on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:21:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If the remains of one of those cages (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jlb1972

              mixed with human remains had ever been found, It certainly would be, but we don't have any such, at least so far as I know.  In fact so far As I am aware we've never seen a wicker Anything at a known Celtic sacrifice/worship site. It wouldn't be suprising,  human sacrfice was pretty widespread at the time but so far as I know the evidence for it simply doesn't exist, outside of Ceaser's pen..

              Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

              by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:01:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It exists from other sources as well... (0+ / 0-)

                5 years before Caesar was born, the Cimbri annihilated the Romans at the Battle of Arausio...
                according to history... they burned the captured consular Marcus Aurelius Scaurus alive in a wicker cage.

                Gore-Warner in 08!

                by Frederik on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:06:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well (1+ / 0-)

                  While that's certainly the story you can find when you looks for the battle of Arausio, I can't seem to find the source of it.   Livy doesn't mention it in his account of the battle and he was writing about 50 years later.   And too the way it is protrayed in that story is as a method of execution not a human sacrifice ritual.   If I had to guess I'd say that incident, if it did happen, might have been the source material for Ceasar's possible invention the Drudic ritual

                  Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

                  by Magorn on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:40:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  The 'barbarian hordes' that destroyed Rome.,, (6+ / 0-)

      were more like illegal immigrants early on. All the really desired was some of the good life Rome offered. They were extensively recruited as soldiers. In the crises of the Third Century and later whole war bands were recruited with their "tribal" leaders serving as officers. Roman neglect caused a number of revolts, particularly among the Visigoths leading up to the battle of Adrianople(378) and the later sack of Rome in 410. All the really desired was some of the Roman prosperity. In some regards the barbarian hordes were like large gangs of teenage delinquents. Theodoric the Ostrogoth who eventually supplanted the empire in the West was 19 when he lead his first "invasion".

      CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

      by irate on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at