Daily Kos

How torture will really work

Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 10:08:23 AM PDT

The pro-torture right has been squawking for weeks about the need for "clarity" in interpreting the Geneva Conventions--a need that evidently never existed before this war and, for that matter, this election cycle... but never mind that for now).  But two important ideas have been missing from the conversation. To me, this is first and foremost about American values and American claims to moral leadership in a conflicted world. It's sadly clear that the people now in charge of our country don't care a fig about our values and traditions--and that see our values and our moral premises as a shackle, not a strength.

Right now, though, I'm not even thinking about that. I'm thinking about how this is going to work in practice. Not in a movie script scenario where the hardened terrorist knows where the bomb is but won't tell. But how it's going to work with the poor schmuck who's picked up in a sweep of a Baghdad neighborhood one evening right before curfew.

On a secure phone, the supervisor of the facility is being yelled at by someone who was yelled at by someone who was yelled at by someone who was yelled at by Donald Rumsfeld or David Addington. The supervisor has a career to consider; he's got a wfie and two kids, and he's worried about how he's going to take care of them.

One of his deputies notices that this poor schmuck who the patrol just picked up looks like someone on a watch list. Or maybe he has the same last name but for one letter that might have been screwed up in a transliteration.

And the two of them figure, okay, there's now a policy in place that "harsh methods" are allowed. It's not really torture, because it isn't rape or Nazi Doctors stuff; they're just going to have to stand naked for 20 hours in a 50-degree cell with Megadeth's second album blasting at 130 decibels, on repeat. It's just discomfort.

Now, maybe this prisoner has an undiagnosed medical condition--high blood pressure, irritable bowel, a kidney problem. He can't go to the bathroom, so he starts to foul himself in the cell. Every half-hour, a contractor from Blackwater comes into the cell, motions to the guard, and the guard pauses the CD. The contractor asks a few questions that our poor schmuck doesn't know the answers to; when the contractor/interrogator doesn't get the answers he wants, he throws a few biffs and baffs, and now the guy has a bloody nose and a black eye. After a few hours, he goes home to his hotel, and another interrogator comes and starts the whole thing again.

This interrogator, though, thinks that she's much better at her job than the blockhead now on his way home for a late dinner and some pay-per-view; her daring, outside-the-box methods might involve grabbing the guy's balls, or trying to force-feed him a pork chop. Okay, maybe some pencil-necked lib lawyer would argue that this is "humiliating or degrading" under Article 3 of Geneva--but that lib lawyer will never know, of course. So why not? Rumsfeld's office wants intel.

This goes on for about a day. Then the prisoner is released, given some new clothes, maybe allowed to sleep for an hour before he's thrown out of the facility. There's another group of usual suspects since rounded up, and the whole thing starts again.

THIS is how the torture policy will work in the real world. Not ripping off fingernails until the turbaned terrorist finally admits where the nuke is. Just a lot of "banality of evil," that ultimately probably will create some real terrorists.

Maybe not until the next time we need to go into the middle east to test out some think tanker's theory about pre-emption, but it will happen, and our own sins will be revisited upon us.

Tags: George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Blackwater, torture, Iraq (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 6 comments

  •  Two added points: (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dajafi, kraant, marykk
    1. Once we are on record as officially condoning torture, we won't get the intelligence cooperation necessary to find and capture the high-value targets - certainly not in Europe, where many of the real threats will reside. So we will have to settle for torturing the table scraps (the unlucky, the stupid, the low-level, the petty criminal, the misidentified, etc. etc.).
    1. There is one, and only one, scenario I can think of where torture might even remotely work. If you capture 2 or more members of the same operational group, you can question (and, yes, torture) them separately and compare their stories to determine how to proceed. Its what they do on Law and Order - but there, the detectives rely on clever questioning techniques to elicit info. Unfortunately, the policy of officially condoned torture (see point 1) means that we are that much less likely to get even one high-value captive, let alone the 2 or more with overlapping knowledge that this technique would require.

    -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

    by grapes on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 10:25:01 AM PDT

    •  great point (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      grapes, kraant, marykk

      It both degrades us in the eyes of the world, and hurts our operational capacity to gather usable intelligence.

      I keep waiting for the pro-torture side to produce even one person who's in a position to know--who's an actual expert on this rather than a right-wing operative or John Yoo-type theorist--who argues the value of this approach. I strongly suspect I'll continue to wait.

  •   Stop them now before it's too late to. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kraant

     This kind of behavior by the Bush admin. is the kind of behavior of bullies and braggerts! ( Fuck heads ). Just wait until their paranoia turns towards the American people from their fear of a revolution happening in this country and they start torturing us! The CIA lives with paranoia, that's why they exist. They are paranoid of everyone and everything including you and I. The CIA has to be brought under civilian control and it's powers eliminated. The initial purpose of the CIA was to gather information only, not to get involved with overthrowing governments, creating false wars... They need to be brought under control before it's too late!!

     They had all the info. they needed to stop 9-11 from happening. There is no need for torture to cover up for their incompetence and down right stupidity!

  •  Torture TV (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dajafi, mrfleas

    I think some enterprising reporter ought to set up a torture demo for national tv, say some repeated waterboarding with a volunteer or two.

    Perhaps the American people ought to see what they are legalizing.

  •  my guess (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    marykk

    as to why the Bushies are so keen on torture, despite the consensus of experts that it is not effective, is that it plays well with many constituents. A lot of people, probably ones that are not terribly well informed or educated, see the torture as being tough on terrorists. I think this torture is 99% politics and is tied to the R's persistent good polling numbers on ability to protect the nation from terror. The Rs are masters at exploiting the ignorance, prejudices and predisposition to authoritarianism of a large portion of Americans. Remember those Stanford experiments after WWII?

    •  depressing, but probably correct (0+ / 0-)

      Given that I believe (with a lot of supporting data) this administration makes all decisions with an eye to politics, you're probably right. Rove and Bush, who's no slouch himself at identifying the lowest common denominator, almost certainly see the issue as a winner.

      And that they're right might be the most upsetting aspect of all.

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