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Not PC as in "politically correct," though they certainly have more than their share of those who patrol the language for any nuance that gives off hints of liberalism.  PC as in PC.  

No one has any doubt that PCs running some flavor of Microsoft Windows dominate the computer landscape as much as dinosaurs did the Jurassic plains.  Little Unix systems pop up here and there, as do many less well known systems, holding down small niches in the computer ecosystem.  

And then there is Apple.

Despite the dropping of the word "computer" from the company name, Apple does still make computers.  The scampering mammals of the IT landscape, Macs have sometimes come close to extinction and even now hold down just less than 5% of computer sales.  Hardware wise, that 5% is not so bad, considering that the PC world is divided up amongst Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony, whoever owns IBM's name this week, and a thousand others.  Apple is solidly among the top brands.

But on the software side, the share of the market held by Apple's OS X operating system looks tiny beside Microsoft's behemoth.  It's even smaller on conservative web sites.  When it comes to visitors to Instapundit, OS X visitors make up only 2-3%, suggesting that conservatives are less likely to go for the Apple brand than the general public.  On the other hand, Daily Kos statistics show that between 15% and 25% of visitors to this site are using Macs -- an astounding 5x times the general population of these computers.  If you were at YearlyKos last time around, you could spot more Macs at breakfast than you'd find in an Apple store.

So here's a question: why?  Why do liberals like Macs, while conservatives shun them?

  • The Fiscal Conservative Theory: conservatives are, well, conservative.  They go for lowest bottom dollar price they can find, and (traditionally at least, though not so much of late) Apple products tend to cost a bit more than the average.  So conservative PC numbers are bolstered by a bunch of bare-bones models bought on the cheap.
  • Conformists vs Individuals Theory: despite conservative rhetoric that champions the "rugged individual," the whole point of social conservatism has traditionally been to knock down those nails that stand up above the rest of the row.  In short, conservatives buy PCs because they want to buy what everyone else has.  Liberals buy Macs because they want to put a metaphorical finger in the eye of "the man" (assuming that finger could penetrate Bill Gate's thick glasses).
  • The Hip vs Tragically Unhip Theory: It's been true since at least the 50s, daddio.  Conservatives are squares, dig it?  So conservatives buy computers that look like gray lunch buckets and run with all the flair of operating instructions.  Liberals, beret owners from way back, think Apple's designs are the ginchiest.
  • The Artists vs. Sausage Makers Theory: Not to say that a good Boerewors is not an art in itself, but the theory here is that liberals are more interested in all things artistic, and more likely to be employed at things that require artistic talent (and if you have a theory about why that should be, write your own post).  Conservatives are more likely to be plodding through the numbers and writing memos about the supplies in the company bathroom.  So liberals buy Macs because of the variety and power of media software available for the system.
  • The Shallow Value vs Deep Value Theory: A variant on the first theory (conservatives are skinflints), this one says that conservatives buy whatever's cheapest without taking into account the real value this represents.  Liberals study the big picture and decide the Mac represents a better overall value, even if the initial price tag causes a moment of sticker shock.

Why bring this up now?  Well, with Window Vista getting reviews like this

Compared with Mac OS X 10.4, Windows Vista feels clunky and not very intuitive, almost as though it's still based on DOS (or at least the internal logic that made up DOS).

and the iPhone on its way to convert the portable world, the percentages in this game may be about to change.  And that brings me to my own secret theory.  I call it... buying a Mac makes you liberal.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:48 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

      •  You knew this would happen, didn't you? (8+ / 0-)

        Rascal.

        As silly as this fight is, it's kinda fun in a way.

        •  I have ulterior motives (11+ / 0-)

          I really do intend to write a post comparing Apple to (gasp) Walmart.

          And I'm interested in why people think there is this liberal=Mac alignment.

          •  Steve Jobs is a liberal (17+ / 0-)

            A real dirty hippie. Vegan, 60's/70's Dylan -- nothing after Blood on the Tracks -- John and Yoko. So that's one possible reason.

            The reason Greenpeace is after Apple, I suspect, is that they know that Apple employees actually do care about this stuff, and it does make them unhappy to be environmentally insensitive. Apple is very liberal internally. I know precisely one Republican at Apple. Punchline? He's gay.

            •  DRM. (13+ / 0-)

              Digital Rights Management. It fucking sucks, and Apple is toeing the line and spreading their DRM around. Just like Microsoft. Except that Apple might actually make it happen, because they can control their hardware too.

              I understand a lot of good things come out of Macs - but this is the down and bad side.

              Steve Jobs may have a dirty hippie background - but that doesn't mean he can't also become the Man.

              That's why all Americans, and especially Liberal information lovers, are best served by both Macs and PC's. And in this regard, PC's are better.

              "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

              by jbeach on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:17:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  the tide is turning (7+ / 0-)

                Apple achieved a major coup in getting all the major labels to sign on to iTunes. The DRM system they designed was an essential part of convincing the labels to get involved. But the tide is turning against DRM, starting with rulings in Norway, France, and the Netherlands. Apple will have to rethink the DRM model, but now they will have more leeway to do so, because the labels now need iTunes as much as iTunes needs them.

                I truly believe that if Apple could have created the iTunes ecosystem without resorting to DRM, they would have done it. And maybe they still will. Keep the pressure on them.

              •  FairPlay is weak DRM (4+ / 0-)

                The DRM built into iTunes is the weakest framework Apple could get away with and still offer major label works for sale.  It allows you to burn your iTunes Music Store purchases (in "locked" AAC format) to CD (which then could be re-ripped into MP3).  You can share AAC files over your network (I think 5 computers is the max).  So far as DRM schemes go, Apple's is much less restrictive than the others (Windows Media and Sony ATRAC, I'm looking at you...).

                And really, you don't even need to play along with FairPlay.  For the longest time, I used iTunes and my iPod without making any iTMS purchases.  I ripped my CD collection to MP3 and that kept me happy for a couple of years.  Only within the last three months did I start buying music with iTMS, and the DRM has never really gotten in my way.  I burn CDs for my car and to have as a backup in case of hard drive meltdown.


                k.

                --
                "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

                by ktakki on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:52:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not for video (4+ / 0-)

                  You can't burn video clips from iTunes to CD, DVD, or anything else. Fun how they pulled that one so quickly, eh?

                  Also, as a computer scientist who keeps track of what Apple is doing here, I can say they are going all out to at least give the appearance that the core of their DRM is hard to crack, and that they could in theory do anything with it the media companies wanted upon proper negotiations. Never mind that DRM can't be made uncrackable, just hard to crack, and the war of code obfuscation and countermeasures can only become an arms race.

                  •  I did burn video from iTunes (0+ / 0-)

                    in Windows. However the video was Jobs' presentation at Mac World and it might not have been DRM'd. Just copy the file, change the extension to MP4 and process it using Nero Vision. Worked flawlessly. I haven't tried it with anything I purchased but I never purchase video from iTunes. I hardly ever purchase music. I'd much rather buy the CD and rip it.

                  •  my kids (0+ / 0-)

                    burn em off all the time. Don't know how they do it- they tried to tell me, I asked if it involved me getting another cease & desist letter or a visit from the software police, they said they didn't know, so I told them don't tell me anymore.

                    We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

                    by Silent Lurker on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 08:55:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Question: Why can't I get Beatles songs on itunes (0+ / 0-)

                  ?

                  My Beatles collection is mostly made up of trading songs with friends and p2p download, although I haven't used p2p software since about 2004 because of the spyware and viruses. I'm trying to get Taxman and Imagine (yes, sadly I don't have Imagine.) I'm considering buying #1 and one of Lennon's greatest hits CDs, but I already have most of the songs that I would be purchasing.

                  •  apple records vs apple computer (3+ / 0-)

                    There has been legal fighting between the Beatles record company and Apple Computer ever since the first Apple with sound. At one point Apple Records tried to get an injunction prohibiting Apple computers from having sound. This is why one of the default sounds in MacOS is called "Sosumi" (sound it out). I think that after the most recent round Apple is finally going to get the Beatles catalog on iTunes. They changed their name (to just Apple rather than Apple Computer), so I assume that the name confusion issue finally got settled (legally; I don't think there ever was any real confusion).

                    p.s. Just buy all their albums and rip them from CD instead of using p2p. It's good stuff, even the songs that don't get played to death.

                    I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -- Kurt Vonnegut

                    by sabishi on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:19:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'll probably do that if they don't settle soon (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sabishi

                      Although I have very few actual CDs left (half of my small physical CD collection is store-bought, while the other half is burned copies from mp3s.) I'm thinking about copying my mp3 collection onto some more CD-RWs in case my files get wiped out.

                      •  backing up (2+ / 0-)

                        If you have a DVD burner you can back up your music collection to blank DVDs. In iTunes just go to File, Back Up to Disc and follow the instructions. You can also use CD-R but it's slower and takes more discs.

                        Also, if you saw the Jobs presentation, he played a Beatles song while demoing the iPhone. That's a hint that a deal between the two Apples might be close.

            •  Gates is liberal too. (5+ / 0-)

              Look at the billions (with a B) he has given to charitable causes.  

              When you are going through hell, keep going! - Winston Churchill

              by flo58 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:18:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Gimme a break (10+ / 0-)

              Apple is jsut a monopolist asshole corporation like any othr one.

              take a look at iPhone. It's pure DRM, lock in/no unlock hardware, long contract, tied to apple product only, no ability to instal software.  IT is CLASSIC APPLE product.

              Anybody who buys iPhone and then running around abot Orwell/Freedom is plain stupid. We are talking about "REPUGS" level of idiocy. (but at least it's good looking, unlike the chimp)

              •  Uh, can you reprogram your non-Apple phone? (0+ / 0-)

                Because that's what phones are for?

                •  yes (7+ / 0-)

                  ...duh...

                  people has been doing it for several years. (PalmOS/pocketPC)

                  and another thing. Apple users are like repugs. Usually don't have a clue and believe whatever Apple advertising is telling them.

                  LOL.

                  Apple PPC is faster than intel. (oops, now apple uses intel)

                  just because steve says so, doesn't mean it is true. He is just another salesman and doesn't mind putting out BS to push product.

                  •  speed (3+ / 0-)

                    is not why Apple switched from PPC to x86. Yes, PPC was scaling a bit slower than x86, but that wasn't the main reason. Apple was only 5% of IBM's PPC sales and IBM thought they wanted too much special treatment for such a small customer. (IBM probably had a point, I admit.) Intel offered Apple some special treatment, and Apple has always done multi-architecture builds, so it wasn't a huge leap to go over to x86. Plus it was getting to the point where x86 was getting better speed per Watt. That's important to Apple. They want cool (temperature-wise) computers. It doesn't change the fact that x86 is a nightmare of an architecture. I couldn't blame anyone for being hesitant to switch to it.

                    Also, there may be a subset of Apple users who trust everything that comes out of Jobs mouth, but I'm sure as hell not in that subset and neither are any of my Mac using friends. I've been a Linux user since 1995, but have never had good luck with Linux and laptops. OS X is a Unix that "just works" on laptops. Better, in fact, than Windows on PC laptops even. I like the nice GUI, but even more so, I like the Unix underpinnings and if you're a programmer, Objective C with the Cocoa framework is fantastic.

                    I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -- Kurt Vonnegut

                    by sabishi on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:43:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jmcgrew, SBE

                  See here.  What's the point in having a "smart" phone if you can't install whatever programs you want on it?

            •  Apple's secrecy and labor standards (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tomaxxamot, Jett, phenry, antirove, Corey

              I'm really surprised nobody has brought this up... the DRM and big media connections are obvious, but there are a few other things that distinguish Apple in my mind from other companies that do not reflect positively on them. In fact, I used to have a more positive opinion of them, even early Jobs era, than I do now.

              • The level of secrecy is unparalleled. Apple has a no-leak rule to make the Department of Defense look like a sieve. They routinely sue reporters over leaks, the reporting of which is considered standard practice in the industry. (It doesn't help that they have one of the most obsessive fan bases which is absurdly interested in every little leak coming out of the company, but the two go hand in hand.) Very few of these actually end up being important; many of the "leaks" are very predictable and some are noise unrelated to anything they're actually doing. The feeling I get is of the kind of company who wants to be in absolute control of their image at all times, and this is reflected across their culture.
              • Apple people have to have faith in the company and its products. The result is that they can market packaged products to consumers just fine, but they have a problem with customer relations when the dialogue needs to go both ways. Apple isn't a "cluetrain" company. Their employees don't blog, unlike Google and even Microsoft. Much of this is because Steve will fire them if they say the wrong thing. I do know someone who was fired from Apple for giving candid advice in a technical forum that a particular technology Apple was promoting was not enterprise ready and the customer should look at an open standard instead, still running on OS X. Two years later, Apple adopted that same open standard (LDAP) instead of their broken in-house technology (NetInfo).
              • Apple is not a startup, but they have a startup-like culture which embraces being understaffed and having employees devote their lives to the company. It is the kind of place a lot of young people work, but either move up or leave before they settle down, start a family, or pursue outside interests. I personally believe that this reverse age discrimination (employing only young people because they can be corporate serfs and work longer and harder) is destructive to labor rights in an America increasingly dependent on jobs which involve extensive training and talent, and only produces a generation of talented but burned-out people. And this is aside from their arbitrary, paranoid management style where you lose your job if Steve says so. (Disclaimer: I am not a former Apple employee but have dealt with this kind of attitude in other places. Feedback from current and former Apple employees has convinced me to avoid ever applying to work there.)
              • Here's where the DRM comes in. Apple is perfectly okay with building a customer base based upon one idea, then changing their position when it suits their business while keeping all the fans they got from being different. The last couple paragraphs of this comment on Slashdot from a (former?) Apple employee is very telling. (If you look at his posting history, he's no liberal.)

              Overall, Apple reminds me of nothing more than an electronic Nike. Nike is a company that built itself up by catering to athletes at all levels and -- like Apple -- designing decent products that people wanted to buy. Behind that, though, they didn't talk about the fact that they were aggressively moving production to sweatshops in SE Asia, the reaction to which became a problem Apple is also now facing, or about the fact that as they became popular and raised prices the value to the consumer was declining.

              •  employee blogging (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CSI Bentonville

                The Safari team blogs. They have a blog called Surfin' Safari.

                I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -- Kurt Vonnegut

                by sabishi on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:48:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  that is a brilliant post (0+ / 0-)

                I think it's informative to watch the mac expo show from earlier this month.  Every word Jobs says is greeted with applause.  "It's an internet communicator!"  "Hooray!"

                My first Apple was the Apply ][e, which we got back in 1983 when I was 8 (thanks mom!).  I've been using Apples longer than most Apple users have been alive.  Here in Eugene, OR, you're more likely to see someone using an abacus than a PC in the back of Espresso Roma.  It's some kind of damn cult, and I don't understand it.  

                What Apple has is some of the world's best marketing, and that's the extent of it.

                "I am Don Fong" --don fong

                by don fong on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:04:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Steve is a buddhist too :) n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville

              "If you can't say something nice, fuck you" -- My Mom

              by virgomusic on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:59:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Steve Jobs is a dick (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gabriel Fuentes

              In 1982, Time ran Jobs' 27-year-old face on its cover, portraying him as the epitome of the new American entrepreneur. Jobs responded by giving Moritz full behind-the- scenes access to write a book about Apple. That's when Moritz saw Jobs' egomania and abusiveness. Moritz discovered that Jobs refused to acknowledge his fatherhood of an out-of-wedlock child with his old high-school girlfriend. Jobs wouldn't give any financial support to the mother and daughter, who were surviving on welfare while he was about to make hundreds of millions of dollars when Apple's stock went public.

              Steve Jobs was not the most considerate individual at Apple, and he had lots of ways to demonstrate that. One of the most obvious was his habit of parking in the handicapped spot of the parking lot - he seemed to think that the blue wheelchair symbol meant that the spot was reserved for the chairman.

              Whenever you saw a big Mercedes parked in a handicapped space, you could be sure that it was Steve's car (actually, it was hard to be sure otherwise, since he also had a habit of removing his license plates). This sometimes caused him trouble, since unknown parties would occasionally retaliate by scratching the car with their keys.

              Anyway, the story is that one day Apple executive Jean-Louis Gassee, who had recently transferred to Cupertino from Paris, had just parked his car and was walking toward the entrance of the main office at Apple when Steve buzzed by him in his silver Mercedes and pulled into the handicapped space near the front of the building.

              As Steve walked brusquely past him, Jean-Louis was heard to declare, to no one in particular - "Oh, I never realized that those spaces were for the emotionally handicapped...".

              --Andy Hertzfeld

              You want to claim this tool, go right ahead. Just don't expect me to call either one of you a liberal.

          •  It's the drugs. (9+ / 0-)

            Apple puts contact-drugs on their components, that turn you into a thinking liberal.  The more you use their stuff, the more liberal you become.  I thought everyone knew that.  

            Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

            by Shadan7 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:08:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  But (3+ / 0-)

            Mac people don't shop at Walmart. Walmart's big, and ugly, and unhip - totally PC.

          •  That's a good question... (10+ / 0-)

            Because I certainly don't make that connection.  Some of the biggest Mac-heads I've known are raving loony conservatives.  It's a bogus juxtaposition if there ever was one.  Just more "Mac people are superior -- we are, too and if you don't agree I'm going to throw another fit" garbage.

            Really, why does D-Kos have to be dragged down to these stupid OS religious wars?  What OS you use says ZERO about your politics or how cool a kid you are.  How sad is it that even liberals can be completely hood-winked by branding?  Apple is just another giant corporation with all the good and the bad that goes with it.  They are not the savior.  Steve Jobs is as big of a jerk as BillG, he just dresses better and has nicer hair.  Same for their respective OS'.

            •  I'll give you a perfect example (0+ / 0-)

              of how much Macheads love their machines.  Rush Limbaugh is a Machead, and I've heard him wax ecstatically (or maybe he was just on Ecstacy?) over Macs and the Mac OS.  This despite the fact that Jobs is well known to be a liberal.
              Of course, my point sort of destroys the whole "Macs are for liberals" theory.

              There's only two additional Americans I want to see sent to Iraq: Jenna and Barbara.

              by jazzmaniac on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:22:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, Macs aren't just for liberals (0+ / 0-)

                Oh, I do think there's a parallel in mindset, but exceptions like Rush (and some folks I know personally) sort of goes against the Mac=liberal idea.

                Hey, according to Time, even Karl Rove uses a Mac regularly in his office.

            •  The most politically conservative friend I have (0+ / 0-)

              is such a Mac-head that he got an Apple(TM) tattoo on his arm.

              Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world -- h/t deepfish

              by Mehitabel9 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:26:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think it's pretty simple (4+ / 0-)
            1.  Macs are most common in education and creative industries.  PCs are most common in the other businesses.  
            1.  The proportion of people with liberal positions tends to be greater in education and the creative industries, compared to business generally.
            1.  Most people don't like learning more than one operating system.

            Having said that, I'll give you an example that contradicts No. 3.

            My wife uses Macs at her school.  She's been making noises about me getting her a notebook computer for awhile, and I asked her over the weekend which she'd prefer: Mac or PC.  She wants a PC.  She hates Macs.  And, to be honest, after trying to use hers a few times at school and once at an Apple store, I'd have to agree.  Macs seem to employ cute and clever graphics, but I don't see much advantage to them for the average user who uses the Internet, email, writes documents, and uses spreadsheets; especially when Macs comes at such a financial premium.  

            I suppose if you want to project an image of being cool, hip, a rebel, or whatever, the extra money Macs demand is not a concern, but in some ways it is similar to paying more to get "designer" jeans as opposed to run of the mill (so to speak) dungarees.

            •  Education (0+ / 0-)

              I think higher education is a good explanation for the correlation: Macs have always had a larger presence in education, as have liberals.

              To separate "Apple as underdog" from "Apple as corporation", we need to know the stats of Linux users visiting both sites.  If you go by the comments on Slashdot, Linux users seem[1] to lean libertarian, with equal disdain for the social conservatives and for the moonbats.

              [1]Merely my impression, and certainly no more than a tendency.

              •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Catte Nappe

                The only computer I dealt with when I attended college required an offering: you had to bring stacks of punch cards and slip them through a small window to be received by a nerdy acolyte within the computer's refrigerated temple.

                The next day you could go back, pick up your cards, and learn from the printout that, once again, somewhere on your cards was an "O" masquerading as a "0."

                ...or vice versa

                •  And someone jostled you on the way (0+ / 0-)

                  And your card deck fell, before you had managed to take a magic marker to the bottom of the deck at an angle so you could see exactly which cards were out of order.

                  Single payer universal healthcare coverage saves money and saves lives.

                  by freelunch on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:38:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  this is why (0+ / 0-)

                    you punched a sequence number in the rightmost columns, starting with a reasonable increment between cards. Deck gets shuffled, run it through the sorter.

                    The real problem was some idiot used the wroung IO number and 'printed' their output to the card reader/punch, which usually meant into the following job. When I was a computer lab instructor, I acquired a real fast reflex - detect the punch starting up, hit the reader/punch stop button before more than a couple of JCL cards got trashed.

          •  Greenpeace goes after Apple (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt, jfm

            because they (Apple) have a liberal image to protect.

            As for the origins of that image (before it got amplified by advertising) I believe it goes back to the days when Macs were for doing pretty drawings, and IBM's were for counting money.

          •  Good on you. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt, Chaoticfluffy, KansasLiberal

            I would find that fascinating, and a welcome change from the usual Gospel According to Jobs, wherein the iLight of the iMac bringeth iKnowledge and hip black-frame glasses unto all the people of the iWorld.

            As I commented below, people think there is an alignment for the same reason people used to think Marlboros make you more manly: Marketing.  Too many people (not necessarily you) make the mistake of thinking that everybody who works for a computer company is a socially-clueless nerd who can program in assembly but couldn't talk to a girl to save his life, slaving away in his parents' basement in his pajamas and eating Cheetos.  (Hmmm-- where have we heard that before?)

            Nothing could be further from the truth.  They are just as good at manipulating us as RJ Reynolds.

      •  i'm telling you (16+ / 0-)

        last time i participated in a Mac vs PC discussion, i was beseiged by PC users who trollrated me from here to next week

        they're tres sensitive

        It's the planet, stupid. - Fishoutofwater

        by cookiebear on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey! Who you calling sensitive???!!! (10+ / 0-)

          Food and the art of improvisation:
          Jazz Cooking

          by kate petersen on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Come on now, cookiebear. (6+ / 0-)

          Do you really think I don't have a list of stories as long as my arm about whiny-ass Mac users?

          It's a religious war, and a diary/comment like this one will ALWAYS get the same reception as a diary that suggests that Jesus is the best god there is, and Jehovah, Allah, Buddha*, and yes, even FSM himself, are all inferior.

          "*" Yes, I'm aware Buddha is not a god.  Please just take the somewhat-faulty analogy for what it's worth.

          •  well (6+ / 0-)

            as i pointed out to a very angry PC user below who told me off but good ...

            1. the author of this diary is a PC user;
            1. there's more than a little humor involved in all of it.

            and truth be told, i never think about PC users --- except when they ask me to help them with their miserable windows based machines ::ducking for cover now!!!::

            It's the planet, stupid. - Fishoutofwater

            by cookiebear on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:47:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have an email attachment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cookiebear

              with your name on it, punk.  Don't tempt me.

              Oh wait ... nevermind.

              Not to get too far OT, but my big complaint about supporting Macs is that, for the industry I'm in (legal), the people who tend towards Macs are usually idiots.  I do not think this is generalizable; i.e., I think most idiots are Mac users, but Mac users are not necessarily idiots.

              I think what happens is that an idiot wants a computer but doesn't know why, he hears Macs are easier to understand even though he has difficulty telling time on his digital watch, and so he buys a Mac, takes it out of the box, calls me, and refuses -- REFUSES!! -- to understand what I mean when I say "double-click."

              (Yeah, you do have to take it with some humor.)

              •  i am so stealing ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CSI Bentonville, I

                ... the first part of this post!

                but seriously ... imo, it's a silly thing to get upset about, although i understand your complaint.

                i was just so genuinely surprised the first time i entered a Mac-PC discussion on dKos  to see how angry people got about it. what a strange thing to be mad about! but we all have our bugaboos. the Mac-PC divide simply isn't one of mine, tho, and i find the anomosity very weird --- almost worthy of its own ethnography! is it that we've personalized the computer to such an extent that it's become an extension of us? so criticizing someone's choice in computers is like criticizing their choice of mates or - worse - their children? seriously - i find it very odd.

                It's the planet, stupid. - Fishoutofwater

                by cookiebear on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:09:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Let that be a lesson learned. lol :-) n/t (0+ / 0-)

        "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-5.38, -6.77)

        by AUBoy2007 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe Next Time... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phenry, YucatanMan, bodymind

        ... you just shouldn't pull something out of your ass.

      •  Linux users ? (10+ / 0-)

        I use linux , so am a centrist ? Micro$oft sucks, but macs are overpriced. $600 for a cellphone , come on ?

        why doesn't Apple allow other companies to sell songs for the iPod ?

        can't believe , this is a front page article.

        •  Nah. (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cookiebear, bree, ktakki, Hannibal, plumberwill, I

          If Wintel users are conservatives, and Mac users are liberals, Linux users are anarchists.

        •  Linux Users are Leftwing Populists (9+ / 0-)

          Aren't they? They expect that old from each according to their ability -- to each according to their need without paying a dime for their software.

          Anyway, I love Linux. I've used it since 1995 when I installed a Linux file and print server for my Macs. I now use it for anything web development/browsing and email. The Macs are relegated to only print media -- poor things.

          By the way, have you seen the new Compiz 3D window manager for Linux? Wild screenshots. You're seeing the future of OS X right there!

          Stay Above the Fray --- Vilsack All the Vay!!

          by GW Chimpzilla on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:22:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  hmmm.... (4+ / 0-)

          $600 for a cellphone , come on ?

          If you think that's out of line, look at pricing on the top-of-the-line Sony Ericsson or Nokia smartphones. The Sony P990i runs about $550, and then you'll have to buy a 4GB or 8GB memory card to match the iPhone's storage. The iPhone will still be prettier, easier to use, and will work better as a music player. The Sony will have the advantage of an FM radio (oooh, ahh) and you can install third-party software on it (one minor gripe I have about iPhone at present).

          why doesn't Apple allow other companies to sell songs for the iPod ?

          Any company can sell songs for the iPod. All they have to do is offer them in MP3 format. I buy tracks from Emusic.com and play them on my iPod all the time.

          If the question was really supposed to be 'why doesn't Apple license their FairPlay DRM?', for one thing that would entail iTunes having to check all these different companies' servers to see whether the user's computer was authorized and verify all kinds of different sets of licensing restrictions before playing music or syncing it to the iPod. A lot of trouble to go through for the convenience of people who want to compete with them.

        •  no, *I* must be a centrist. . . (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lemming22, sabishi

          I run Linux and Windows simultaneously.

          I'm running Debian Etch and VMware Server (free as in beer) with a Windows 98SE guest. Ironically, 98SE is far more stable running virtually than it ever was with direct control of a real box. (for those unfamiliar with emulators, Windows 98 runs here on a software simulation of a real computer running in Linux) Uptime measured in weeks, not days.

          This is my business machine as well, and there are some Windows legacy apps I can't live without yet.

          For those who'd like to know how to do it, I've got a how-to article for publication that'll probably be up in a week or so.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:47:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd be interested to hear about that. (0+ / 0-)

            What emulator do you use? And, does your virtual Windows run Active X in Explorer? (Left to myself, I wouldn't give a rip, but I live in Korea. You can't do anything online in Korea without Active X. Pain. In. The. Butt.)

            •  VMware Server IS the emulator (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rachelmap

              I really don't know.

              Active X and Windows Scripting Host are the second and third things I disable when I install Windows, either native mode or virtual, for security reasons.

              A quick google didn't give me the answer, and it isn't addressed in the article I'm doing the final edit on... it literally never occurred to me that anyone would want
              Active X.

              I'd go to the VMWare site and check program docs and the Knowledge Base.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:25:42 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Just don't (9+ / 0-)

        bring up vim vs. emacs (vim is clearly the winner).

        I'm a liberal and I own a PC.  The reason is because I was until recently a programmer, and Visual Studio.NET is a slick IDE.

        That and I worked for Microsoft.  Don't tar and feather me, please.  There were plenty of other liberals there, it being Washington state.

      •  Heh (4+ / 0-)

        Yeah Fuck you DT.

        I have no idea why, but fuck you!

        Now much did Jobs pay you for this?!?!?!

        Heh.

      •  Something less totally pointless.. (8+ / 0-)
        ...would certainly be nice.

        What a preposterous bit of consumerist fluff (coming from a dedicated free marketer, that's something I think takes some doing).  What a wonderful way to reduce the front page of the biggest Democratic blog to a "who-gives-a-fuck" cultural barometer.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:13:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Computer Religion (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arlam, cwech, FlyingToaster, Autarkh, I

        You are talking about computer religion, so don't be surprised if people think you Mac-fundamentalism is not the way to God.  

        My theory is simple -- if it works, I use it.  So sue me....

        When you are going through hell, keep going! - Winston Churchill

        by flo58 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:17:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  do you have stats on (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sabishi

        Linux users at DailyKos?

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:54:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What did you expect? (0+ / 0-)

        It was a cheap shot at 75% to 85% of DKos readers.

      •  A few weeks ago ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... I made a throw-away comment which was mildly defensive of Microsoft, and I got something like three responses almost instantaneously, all of them complaining about Vista.

        I think there's a pent-up demand for this argument.

    •  i do too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      part of the issue is lack of free choice.  i'd personally rather run linux & am looking for solutions to that effect.  but there are some programs i need for work as well as some games i have that only work on windows.  :-(
      s.

      the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity --w.b.yeats the second coming

      by synth on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:54:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  look into VMware Server (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ClaudeB, CSI Bentonville

        free download from VMware. Google for instructions on how to set it up in your distro.

        I'm running Debian with a VMware Server session running Windows right now. You can run as a guest ANY flavor of Windows, DOS, Solaris, BSD, etc. Or all of the above at the same time if you've got enough memory and CPU power.

        Or wait a couple of weeks, I've got a how-to article on optimizing VMware Server setups that'll be published in a week or two.

        It ran OK on a Duron 1800 and 512M (at least 2G swap)... it runs fast on an Athlon 3500+/1G .

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:07:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  rock (0+ / 0-)

          can you post a reply to this comment linking to that article when you get it?  tia.  s.

          the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity --w.b.yeats the second coming

          by synth on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:47:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  VMWare is awesome, particularly if you have a... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          synth

          ...processor that is capable of hardware virtualization. But running games, or anything else that requires the full power of your CPU and video card, in emulation is a dubious prospect.

          "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

          by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:16:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The Good News (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, arnott, plumberwill, lemming22, jfm

      You can replace Windows with Linux and you won't have to buy any new hardware.

      I'm willing to bet that the operating system that Microsoft sells under the name Windows in 2013 will really be a Unix -- just as MacOS is now.

      Single payer universal healthcare coverage saves money and saves lives.

      by freelunch on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:58:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also have a PC laptop... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh

      and I'm a writer and professor. So what was that about creativity and artists?

      Brother is a PC/Open Source geek.

      Hmmmph.

      "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

      by kredwyn on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:00:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep (0+ / 0-)

        Well, the thing is--writing doesn't depend on technology. Any ol' word processor will do. So the 'artists' that flock to Macs are those that need technological 'boosting' to their so-called 'art'. (There, that ought to be good for some flames :-) ).

        Seriously, I prefer to write on RoughDraft, which, even as word processors go, isn't exactly state-of-the-techno-art. So what do I care? As long as my machine turns on and I get a word processing program to boot up, I'm happy :-)

        "I'm not a musician. I'm a rock and roll guitar player."--Little Steven Van Zandt

        by ChurchofBruce on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:08:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I also do web design (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chebene

          and a slew of other things with my PC and micrografix.

          There's something that's always bugged me about the artistic/creative mentality thing re: Macs.

          It seems kind of odd since drawing, painting, and photography also don't depend on computer technology.

          "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

          by kredwyn on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:30:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ditto (8+ / 0-)

      Well, except the 'fuck you' part, at least.

      I've used PCs for most of my life, and my brief experiences with macs have been largely negative.  When I've used them, they've frozen, crashed, and generally misbehaved far more than Windows machines are reputed to.  Furthermore, I find the single mouse button extremely difficult to get used to.

      •  single button mouse (3+ / 0-)

        For the last 8 years (i.e. since OS X came out) you have been able to plug a three button mouse in and it works exactly as you'd expect out of the box. New Macs come with a mouse that looks like it's one button, but if you push on the left half you get a left click, push on the right half and get a right click, push down on the mini-trackball thing and get a middle click.

        I've been using Macs since 1994 (and many other OSs before and since). That's about when they started getting unstable. By the time OS X 10.1 was out, most of that stability was sorted out. System 7 through System 9 were really bad. 10.0 was pretty bad because it was x.0 release. By the time of 10.3 and 10.4 Macs have become positively delightful. The hardware was never flaky. It was the cooperative multitasking, non-protected memory pre-10.0 OS that was the stability problem.

        I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by sabishi on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:03:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Delightful? Hardly! (0+ / 0-)

          I bought into all that Mac is better stuff and bought a Mac almost two years ago.  It runs 10.9.  I wouldn't exactly call it a delightful experience.  It seems to have just about as many quirks and oddities and hangups that my XP machine does.  I also find the UI to be written for computer dummies, and it sort of "talks down" to the user.  I find that very irritating.

          Mac users like to brag about how their machine "just works", but I honestly can't say it's "just worked" for me.  It's never been able to work right with the wireless mouse I bought for it, and it won't talk to one of my two printers.  It certainly doesn't "just work" for me more than my PC "just works" for me.  

          Everytime I complain about these things, the Mac fanboy chorus starts in on giving me helpful tips about obscure commands.  ("Oh, just hit 'control' and 'P'", or "you'll have to repair your permissions" they say.)  If it's so easy and intuitive to use and it "just works", why do so many odd little tricks have to be employed to get something to work?  Employing all these hidden or obscure keystrokes to fix something's appearance, or get something to behave a certain way doesn't appear to bother the Mac fanboys, while I'm sitting in a confused state wondering just exactly how is this better than a Windows machine?  

          The other common response is to assume that I tried it only for about a week and gave up because I'm too stupid to learn something new.  It's possible that I may be too stupid even for the "intuitive" Mac, but I've been trying it out for nearly two years, and I just DON'T LIKE IT, OKAY??

          On a whole bunch of levels it's been a very disappointing machine, and every week I have it I wonder if it's time to get rid of it and go back to the PCs that I know and love.  This whole Mac adventure I've had has been a lesson learned about the power of marketing and the herd mentality.  

    •  I'm afraid to tell you- (0+ / 0-)

      That any sense of taste you may possess is, by such a statement, indicated as residing solely in your mouth. ;)  

      Lobbyists need Republicans like pimps need whores.

      by electricgrendel on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:05:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amen (7+ / 0-)

      I cannot STAND Macs. They're designed for people who have no idea what they're doing, and even if you DO, they won't allow you to modify them at all.

      That's why I built my own PC - better performance, better price, and I can do to it whatever I want.

      I'm sorry, this about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read here, and I love DailyKos. Don't boil this shit down to the computers we're using.

    •  And since you probably already know... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE, chebene

      ... my NS-lookup will read "*****.aus.amer.*dell*.com"... so I guess you know where I fall on the Apple vs. the world battle.

      I like Macs.  I really do.  But I can manipulate and tweak a PC all day long.  But for the average user, yeah, I can see the Mac appeal.  

      And yes, I buy my PC's cheap.  And my PC'll kick your Mac's ass ;-)

    •  Are you bragging or complaining? (0+ / 0-)

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:25:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Im left and I use a PC (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      seaprog

      hell, im A+ certified, so i fix these damn things. I couldn't tell you though how to even turn on a Mac.

      I laugh at all the candidates announcing their run for President so early. It all won't matter once Al Gore announces.
      Gore/Feingold '08

      by Craig Burnham on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:34:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This ultra left-wing liberal uses Windows XP... (7+ / 0-)

      C'mon now...equating people's ideology with what type of computers they use? Devilstower's next post is a seven parter about how it's common knowledge that the computer of choice for centrists is an Apple II E.

    •  I hate David Brooks type of.. (11+ / 0-)

      bullshit, generalized pop culture pseudo intellectual analysis. I'm liberal and I bought a PC because it was literally half the price of a comparable Mac.  I'm sorry, but my girlfriend bought a new powerbook and all I see on hers is the pinwheel.  This whole Mac vs. PC thing is almost pure aesthetics.  Nothing drives me up the wall more than people who think that the objects they buy a.) define them b.) make them a smarter and better person.  

      Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

      by MatthewBrown on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:50:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  same here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh, SBE, KansasLiberal

      2 reasons I will never own a MAC, even if I am forced to support them;

      1. Apple feels their customers are stupid.
      1. Jobs has revealed himself for the anti-progressive he is by being on the Board of Disney Corp, the people who tried to shut-up Spocko and support hatred on KSFO ( I live in the market so it is kind of personal to me).

      Oh, and another thing, 'OS X' simply shows how weak their original one was by their adoption of an outside source.

      •  And Bill Gates donated money to ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        virgomusic, sabishi

        That temple of ignorance called the Discovery Institute. Perfection will never be found in this life.

        Single payer universal healthcare coverage saves money and saves lives.

        by freelunch on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:40:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And? (0+ / 0-)

          Bill Gates is an ass. That is beyond dispute. The debate is not Windows vs OSX, but Mac vs PC -- and it's an irrelevant debate because ultimately Macs are PCs with a slightly different BIOS.

          "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

          by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:12:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  the People's Computer (12+ / 0-)

      Having had trouble with both machines, I've found that Mac crashes are just like PC crashes...

      ...only more hip and condescending.

      So here is us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me, and I won't push you. -- Mal, "Serenity"

      by exiled texan on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:25:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  True (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      And based on the conformist vs individuals point, buying a Mac makes you a conformist if you're only doing it because "everyone else is"

    •  if you're a videogamer PC is still the way to go (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      synth, SBE

      as well.

      Republicans: By their rotted fruit you shall know them.

      by thereisnospoon on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:46:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Macs are 'liberal?' (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry, jmcgrew, spurdy, Autarkh, Chaoticfluffy, SBE

      While they do have some fine programs (Final Cut Pro is quite nifty), I'm afraid calling Macs liberal is quite a grave mistake.

      While their ads showcase PCs as being stuffy and overly complicated, PCs are much finer machines.  With a PC you can construct any machine that you wish with good quality parts that'll make a machine truly to your liking.  With Macs, you have to go directly through Apple to even do something as minor as adding RAM, a slave hard drive, or anything else. With Macs, the ability to truly learn about your computer is gone and replaced with something that you have to get permission to open up.  

      And with PCs, you aren't limited to Windows.  Linux OSes such as Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS are readily available and are becoming better with time.  Windows isn't the only OS for PCs:  Macs only have one choice total and that's their own OS.  And the reason it works in a much more consistant way is because Apple makes their own hardware to prevent those errors.  Windows has to be compatible with everything.  And if you don't like it, you are more than free to get another free OS.  While I'm not a big fan of Microsoft myself, at least having the opportunity to build my own machine instead of being forced to pay out the nose for a Mac, including the incredible markup they slap onto there to sell their products.

      So in short, putting political attitudes onto companies is both wrong and disturbing.  If anything, Mac is a brand name that is possibly even more insidious than Microsoft.  You have to go through them.  With PCs, you may have to sweat it out for a while, but that sweating gives you a knowledge about computers that can help someone in the long run.  Heck, ten years with PC equipment and not only did I get a second profession handed to me, but it also became a hobby.

      Don't believe the ads:  PCs definitely have more freedom to them than you would think.

      •  Amen to that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jmcgrew, Silent Lurker, Autarkh

        I've been building my own computers for over a decade, and one of the things I really appreciate about the PC side is all the freedom I have to choose exactly the parts I want, both hardware and software. And being able to bargain hunt in a wide market is a great plus.

        I love to tinker, overclock, and experiment with my systems.  As nifty as Apple stuff may be, they're not as friendly to that sort of thing.  When using a Mac it feels as if I'm being forced to wear mittens that I can't remove.

        Yes, I'm a techie and a hardware gearhead, and I realize this isn't the norm.  But I'm also a staunch Deaniac lefty, and a dedicated "PC" user.

        And, like you, my "hobby" eventually led to my current career in computer technology.  ;)

        PS- I agree about Micro$oft not being the greatest.  I keep itching to move over to the Linux world, but I haven't knuckled down and put in the learning time yet.

        Take the party back for the people!
        -----
        Most. Annoying. Emphasis. Technique. Ever.

        by spurdy on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:02:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I got a good return on my investing in Apple (0+ / 0-)

        when everyone else was ready to write their obituary.
        I easily doubled my investment each time I sold the stock. My only regret is that I didn't buy more shares than I did. I miss those days.

        Buy low! Sell high!

      •  Just not true (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CSI Bentonville

        I dunno why I happened to pick your post -- there's plenty of disinformation all around -- but:

        • While you can mix and match high-quality components to build your own PC, it's a crapshoot as to whether they will work correctly together. For example, I built a machine and sometimes it just hangs when waking from sleep or hibernate with the nVidia card. Remove the card and use the built-in Intel video and it works fine.
        • You can definitely add memory by yourself. It's hard to get into a Mac mini, but the iMac and Mac Pro are intended to be user-servicable. Adding drives on the Mac Pro is really neat; for the others there is no room, but external drives with FireWire/USB plug right in.
        • Macs run other OSes. In fact, if you buy Mac hardware you get the most choices: OS X, Linux, or Windows.
        • On the high end, the Mac Pro can be several hundred dollars less than the equivalent Dell workstation. So blanket statements about the "incredible markup" for Macs are not accurate.
    •  I have an HP media center... (0+ / 0-)

      and LOVE it!  Just got it last year.

      If I go anywhere in an o/s I'll go into a workstation like an HP 4400 with Linux.  The Red Hat and Suse lines look interesting.

      The Butcher's Bill at 5:30PM, on 1/29/07 is now at 3080 of our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters killed because of Bush's lies, and incompetence.

      by boilerman10 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:47:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Mostly agree (0+ / 0-)

      Liberal PC user here.  So same sentiments, except for the last part.

      I have a hunch that the higher Apple use by Kossacks has more to do with Kossack's greater involvement with higher education than ideology.

    •  I love you, PC (0+ / 0-)

      You are my brother, and a liberal one at that. I am a Mac, and this post made my day.

    •  Seriously... (0+ / 0-)

      Who the hell cares who uses a PC and who uses a Mac? We've got more important arguments to have.

  •  Notable Conservative Mac users (13+ / 0-)

    George W. Bush (!)
    Rush Limbaugh (!!!)

    •  Or someone able to measure quality (13+ / 0-)

      as well as quantity...

      which few Americans (evidently including yourself) are capable of.

      •  More like... (14+ / 0-)

        ...someone who thinks spending=coolness.

        And you'd be wrong. But it's your money. Fucking waste it. Just shut up about it.

        •  or someone who appreciates nice things (7+ / 0-)

          which most americans don't.

          they'd rather live a life surrounded by wal mart furniture and food from the gas station and mcdonalds.

          sad, pathetic.

          a reason for america's downfall?

          no taste?

          •  Hey man, watch it. (8+ / 0-)

            Sometimes all you have time for is a quick trip to McDs or a gas station.  My dad's on the road a lot, and gas station food is all he can get.

            Sometimes all you can afford is Wal*Mart furniture.

            It's not always about taste.  And even if it was, higher prices do not equal better taste.

            "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-5.38, -6.77)

            by AUBoy2007 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:07:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Or someone who... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            roseba, Vitarai, virgomusic, SBE

            works someplace that PCs are the standard.

            An awful lot of people aren't making this decision for themselves.

          •  or someone who just wants to do it (0+ / 0-)

            not spend hours trying to learn how to do it but still not being able to do it.

            •  Let's do a time warp again (0+ / 0-)

              to circa 1999.  In this day and age, that is not a reality-based talking points.

              Note: States on my work's website (which caters to a lot of people who use mac's) leave visits to less than 5% of all users.

          •  this is the second diary (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Termite

            i've seen you come into and become combative for no real reason....

            dkos ain't that deep. chill it down, please.

            RealClimate.org- READ IT

            by terrypinder on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:16:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            roseba, spurdy, AUBoy2007, kurt, Chaoticfluffy, SBE

            ...you may find a nice sleek case beautiful, but I may find a high framerate in a 3D game beautiful. You prefer form, I prefer function. That doesn't mean I have no taste.

            "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

            by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:05:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed. My only allegiance is to price/perf. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Autarkh

              For instance, I've been using AMD processors for new systems for several years, but when a colleague recently asked me to help him spec out a new system, I went with Intel's Core 2 Duo.  At this point it's the better performer.

              With Apple, I find you pay a lot for the image, aesthetics, and brand.  Those things don't hold much importance for me.  I want high technical performance at a good price.  This doesn't mean I ignore quality, I just limit my search for quality to the performance and longevity of the components, instead of the outward appearance.

              And one can put together a great looking PC these days.  We're far beyond "beige box" limitations now.

              Take the party back for the people!
              -----
              Most. Annoying. Emphasis. Technique. Ever.

              by spurdy on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:02:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's great that you used the AMD/Intel... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Gabriel Fuentes, phenry, spurdy

                ...example. I had never owned an AMD box prior to my current machine, because whenever I had been in the market previously, Intel had something better to offer. This situation was turned on its head with the introduction of the Athlon64/Opteron. I came to the conclusion that AMD had a better product and switched. I advised several others to do the same, including my workplace, which at the time needed a capable server. We have not been disappointed. Now, as you said, Intel has regained the lead, and I have switched again--in fact, I built a Core-Duo based server just the other day to complement the one we already had.

                What I am getting at is that, ultimately, fanboyism is stupid. Allegiance to brands on any basis other than quality and performance strikes me as equally inane. Obviously, speed or power aren't the only consideration: sometimes you are looking for mobility, or power consumption, or some other criterion -- but again, one should evaluate based on this rather than blind brand loyalty and carefully crafted marketing slogans.

                As you pointed out, there are quite attractive PC case options for those that care about such things. Usually I chose cases by how easy they are to access, take apart, modify, etc. Sometimes one is lucky and can get both.

                "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

                by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:14:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hear-hear! (0+ / 0-)

                  Excellently put in all respects.  I do have some brands I tend to go back to repeatedly, but that's due to positive experiences with their products regarding the performance and technical quality aspects I value.  If one of those brands goes downhill, I've no compunction about jumping ship.

                  Regarding cases, I've come to appreciate Lian-Li products a lot.  They're accessible, durable, and look nice to boot!  I've used them exclusively for my personal systems for several years now and have no regrets.

                  Take the party back for the people!
                  -----
                  Most. Annoying. Emphasis. Technique. Ever.

                  by spurdy on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:26:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Wasted money.... (6+ / 0-)

          Oh for a second there I thought you were referring to wasting money on yearly antivirus subscriptions, defragmentation software and replaced components.

          But you're talking about spending a couple hundred extra clams on a computer that allows you to avoid those added costs over its lifetime. My bad.

          "George Bush is right in that there is an 'axis of evil', but it lies at the door of big business and government." Marcus Eoin, Boards of Canada

          by gropo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:42:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Couple hundred? Try 1000 (7+ / 0-)

            Macs are crazy overpriced.  Does anyone ever do research before accepting as gospel marketing?  Mac owners, by and large, think that they're pretty and that owning one makes them cooler.  Pure and simple.  Oh yeah, and some design people, though most of that is still conformist aesthetics as well.  

            Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

            by MatthewBrown on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:23:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  $1000 (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sacrelicious, CSI Bentonville

              OK, calling your bluff. Show me a prebuilt PC that's equivalent and $1000 cheaper than a brand new Mac. Really easy to do these days what with the Intel CPU's. Don't forget the 6 pin Firewire ports and Vista or XP Pro equivalency.

              Sorry, but your c.1996 troll has a bunch of cobwebs and stuff on it.

              "George Bush is right in that there is an 'axis of evil', but it lies at the door of big business and government." Marcus Eoin, Boards of Canada

              by gropo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 05:23:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Gladly... (0+ / 0-)

                I just bought my Dell notbeook from the outlet store for $859.  It has a dual core 2.16ghz processor, dual layer dvd drive, 1 gb of ram, and 15.4 inch ultra sharp display with True Life.  The cheapest powerbook I could find with the same specs was $2,000 (and up to $2500), without the dual write drive.  Granted my notebook only has XP Media (which I could have blown a bunch of money to upgrade to Pro for another $300... you know options, unlike Macs), but it somehow manages to run the entire Adobe Creative Suite that I have loaded on my computer without any problems.  Hmm, those pesky cobwebs weren't so hard to clean.  

                Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

                by MatthewBrown on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 10:07:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  For $2-2.5K... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...you could probably have a laptop with SLI.

                  "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

                  by Autarkh on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:43:29 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Wow... (0+ / 0-)

                  Comparing a brand new, from the factory MacBook to a clearance, perhaps refurbished(?) Dell. That's a logical comparison?

                  Few Questions: What's the GPU? Does that price include a wireless card? Integrated Bluetooth?

                  I just did a quick build of an E1505 on Dell's site with equivalent specs to the $1999 MBP you're comparing against (though they don't offer quite as good a video card even at the high end) the bottom line: $1791

                  And on the other hand, 15" clearance Macs are in the $1200 range.

                  And as far as "options" are concerned, I could order an OS X Server build of a MacBook Pro, or even a pre-installed copy of any flavor of Windows from a 3rd party VAR like SmallDog. On the other hand, good luck getting Dell or a PC VAR to install OS X on your non-Apple hardware * shrug * Options indeed.

                  "George Bush is right in that there is an 'axis of evil', but it lies at the door of big business and government." Marcus Eoin, Boards of Canada

                  by gropo on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:46:20 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's hilarious to me that you would lie about... (0+ / 0-)

                    something so inane in a dead diary.  Yeah, I went to the mac refurb site, before I bought my Dell.  http://store.apple.com/...  Beyond the fact that they don't have 15" Macbook Pro's for sale at all, I find it especially funny that you say "15" clearance macs are in the $1200 range" as though screen size determines the quality of a computer.  Yeah, there was an old G4 powerbook with a shitty 1.5 ghz single core processor, half the RAM, and a shitty graphics card for $1249 (the lowest notebook price available).  So yeah, you can get less than half the computer for $400 more, so... congratulations.  Yes my dell came with wireless and bluetooth.  And yes my computer cost $1000 less than the same Mac.

                    Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

                    by MatthewBrown on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:42:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Trust me. It's not conformist aesthetics. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville

              I'm a designer, and pretty much an anti-authoritarian. Even Apple's level of marketshare bothers me.

              And still, nobody even comes close to Apple on design in my opinion. The difference is that Apple's designers are smart and talented enough to develop trends from current important aesthetic movements.

              Everyone else is just looking for style.

              It's the difference between Nike's design dep't and all the rest.

              It's easy to note true human-based design success, when everyone's copying it. That tells you a design is well adapted for it's niche.

      •  Quality? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jmcgrew, Autarkh

        lol. come on. Remember PPC is faster than intel gab?

  •  Bah. I refuse to buy a Mac. (19+ / 0-)

    I'm perfectly happy with my Toshiba laptop.

    And I'm pretty damn liberal.

    "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-5.38, -6.77)

    by AUBoy2007 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:50:10 AM PST

  •  I have a creepy feeling (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alumbrados, poemless, AUBoy2007, onanyes, kurt

    that your theory will end up like that Geico commercial, where the caveman is shunned at that party by his buddies because he chose them as his insurance company. Not that I don't like Apple.

    Politics is the deliberation of one's moral enterprise.

    by Omen on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:50:32 AM PST

  •  Uh, liberals like Macs? (30+ / 0-)

    Doubtful.  Most liberals don't like companies that have a anal-retentive stranglehold on software and hardware while hypocritically exhorting us to "think different", particularly if this strangehold is accompanied by propaganda about how open and free-thinking they are.  

    What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. -- Bertrand Russell

    by RequestedUsername on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:50:41 AM PST

    •  Oh and FYI (7+ / 0-)

      I'm a Linux user but I'm getting a little tired of how hard it  is to do certain things (not that I can't get them done, but with the 5th child on the way I don't want to take time to do it).  Smug, self-satisfied posts like these are the kind of thing that ensure I won't switch to MacOS.

      What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. -- Bertrand Russell

      by RequestedUsername on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:52:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Difference between Macs and Apple (7+ / 0-)

      I love my Mac. As a computer person, I think Apple makes great stuff. As a liberal, I think Apple the company should be doing a lot of things differently.

      I can love using the hardware and software and still criticize the company for its policies.

    •  Free thinking, my ass! (17+ / 0-)

      Steve Jobs believes that you should only use his computers the way HE wants you to.

      He's been this way ever since the beginning.  The Apple II was Woz's creation.  Jobs told him to limit the expansion cards in it, 'cos we don't want people doing what they want with their computers.  Woz told him to shove it.  When the Apple III came out, it was purposely crippled and closed at Jobs insistence.  Jobs' original Macintosh had NO expansion or connective capability, and it took Jobs' ousting to even consider putting in a SCSI port or expansion slots and bundling the free Hypercard development software. Hypercard must have been Jobs' worst nightmare--people PROGRAMMING their Macs to do whateever THEY wanted?  And for FREE???  The horror!!!!

      Now, we hear that the iPhone will not be programmable in any way, shape or form (outside of apple engineers, of course).  No surprise there.  Jobs always hated the idea of ordinary people programming his computers.  Heaven forbid that a worthless USER might get so uppity as to want to change the settings or software that Lord Jobs inserted himself.  After all, he is the decider!  You either obey or leave the Apple dominion.  Apple, love it or leave it!

      I'd say that the Apple business structure is much more Republican than Democratic.

      Thanks,

      Mike

      •  Thank God IBM didn't take PCs seriously (5+ / 0-)

        The PC was easily reverse engineered because IBM didn't think there was much of a future for it, but they had to have something that would let the number crunchers run a spreadsheet on.

        Unfortunately, because IBM didn't take it seriously, they used a peculiar BIOS system that turned out to be easy to reverse engineer and then sold their PC without an IBM operating system, though you could get some nearly worthless program-loading software called DOS for free if you were too cheap to buy CP/M.

        By the time IBM took it seriously, their 'real' product the PS/2 with OS/2 was out of touch with the market. I'm no fan of MSFT, but I cannot see how things would have been better if IBM had taken the PC seriously and had control of everything from the start.

        Single payer universal healthcare coverage saves money and saves lives.

        by freelunch on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:16:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed.... (0+ / 0-)

          I was just thinking aobut htis the ohter day, if IBM actually defelped the PC on it's own, instead of using third parties.  

          It certainly would have been stable, and robust, and maybe even software compatible with the 360 mainframe architecture... or maybe not... they certainly wouldn't have wanted to make cheap alternatives to their mainframes.

          The IBM 5150 would have been probably the basis of choice, updated and modified for 1981.

          It would have been interesting, that is for sure.  Personally, I felt that IBM ruined the microcomputer industry, with their heavy, power-hungry, very expensive machines, that really couldn't do very much.  They were clunky, had poor graphics and sound bcapability, and were difficult to use.  

          Most of all, though, they were reeally expensive.  It used to be that the Apple II was really expensive, and the IBM multiplied that upper ceiling by a factor of 3.  By making $3,000 an "Acceptable" price for a computer, the days when you could get a home computer for a few hundred dollars were disappearing quickly  In a few short years, $300 home computers were replaced with $3,000, or in my home, replaced with nothing at all...  my folks weren't going to pay that kind of money for a computer.

          I'm still bitter at IBM for doing that to me and millions of other kids.

          THan ks,

          Mike

          •  Huh? That's not how I remember it. (0+ / 0-)
            Our family spent, in total, about $7,000 CDN on our 1979 Apple ][ Plus. (Counting peripherals, of course, and the language/memory card to take it up from 48K to 64K.)

            Even in absolute dollars, without taking inflation into account, we never spent that much on a computer again. Ever.

            Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

            by Canadian Reader on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:17:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  According to wikipedia... (0+ / 0-)

              The original retail price of the computer was US$1298 (with 4 KB of RAM) and US$2638 (with the maximum 48 KB of RAM)

              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              That was back in 1977, the price certainly dropped after that.  I remember the Apple II being around $1200.  The Disk II drivews were quite expensive, and IIRC had major profit margins for Apple.  I think they were $400 a piece.

              Of course the U.S. dollar was a lot stronger back then, perhaps that was the difference????

              I don't know, but your dad must have bought a lot of memory, peripherals, and software.

              Thanks,

              Mike

              •  Thanks for the "my dad"! (0+ / 0-)

                (grin) No, I'm not that young. It was my own hard-earned cash.

                I bought the 48K model, of course. And the Plus wasn't available in 1977. We got one of the first 100 off the assembly line, in August 1979. When I say "peripherals," I'm counting the Language card with Pascal and Logo, a Disk II, and a printer. Prices were considerably higher in Canada, and it wasn't just due to the exchange rate.

                All the same, I remember, years later... who was it? Famous PC columnist... ah, right. John Dvorak. He wrote a column about how The Computer You Really Want Always Costs $5,000. Supported it with chapter and verse about price points, throughout the history of PCs.

                The price of the top of the line leading edge computers with all the bells and whistles, whether PC or Mac, for years and years, always came in around the same dollar figure: $5K in the US. That was about how much a technology freak would be willing to scrape together to own the latest coolest machine there was -- for a few months. There was a mid-price computer config, and in PCs, a bare-bones price point put together using older components, slower chips, minimum everything. Macs tended not to come with the bargain basement config.

                The price points are still there, but they've all come way, way down.

                Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

                by Canadian Reader on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:53:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Programming? (0+ / 0-)

        people PROGRAMMING their Macs to do whateever THEY wanted?  And for FREE???  The horror!!!!

        That must be why the MacBook I bought a few weeks ago (a consumer-oriented laptop) came with the Developer Tools and as an optional installation on the included DVD-ROMs.

        I do miss Hypercard though - it was a nice little environment for developing simple one-off "applications". But one can do much the same now with Apache and MySQL running locally. Not nearly as user friendly, of course.

    •  Here's another point of data (5+ / 0-)

      Drum on a visit to a liberal conference.

      My own theory is that living in Mac-Land is a little like living in a socialist Utopia.  Everything has been pre-planned and designed for your comfort. Owning a PC, on the other hand, is like being stranded in a capitalist jungle: products are sprouting everywhere, dangerous tropical viruses are in the air, lots to eat and lots to be eaten by.

    •  Art geeks like Macs... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roseba, poemless, Autarkh, SBE

      Art geeks are almost exclusively Liberals.

      Perfect logic (to an art geek, a group not known for use of logic)

      Not all liberals are art geeks.
      My PC is not supposed to be a status symbol...
      But it is damned sexy fast.
      And... if you actually want to run software other than what the puter comes with, you will want a PC.

      Why code for 5% of the market?

      TFYQA - think For Yourself, Question Authority

      by Niniane on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:46:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I dont know if (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thewhiterabbit, SBE

    we want to work with this metaphor given the ratio of PCs to mac ou there!

  •  I believe this is an embedded advertisement for (8+ / 0-)

    Apple. Shame. What a big downer. And I even like Apple. My wife has an iBook.

    Jimmy Carter is right.

    by LandSurveyor on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:50:59 AM PST

  •  all about linux, baby (14+ / 0-)

    I mean, talk about people powered! I'm still learning it, and use Windows XP on one computer and Linux on the other, but by the time Vista comes out, I'll have left Microsoft AND Apple (sorry, they still represent the man to me as much as MS) way in the dust.

    If you don't understand someone, consider that the problem may not lie with that person, but rather with your own understanding.

    by Aethern on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:51:01 AM PST

    •  I play Enemy Territory online (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, SBE

      It's a top 5 MMO all time and runs on Linux servers mainly. And like Linux, it is open source. Everyday I customize my configuration for my game and you can even do it right from your console during the game! Awesome!!! Free!!!

      Jimmy Carter is right.

      by LandSurveyor on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Linux seems pretty cool (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sabishi

      I'm always up to learning new things.

      When I rebuild my two old desktops I think they will be linux boxes. This'll be a fun challenge

      RealClimate.org- READ IT

      by terrypinder on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:58:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  the people-powered OS (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Indiana Bob, Autarkh

      Reading dkos right now on Konqueror in Kubuntu 6.10. The rendering is a little funky, but it works. I've been using Linux since the 486 days, and it's come a long way. Some things aren't as easy as they need to be for non-techies, but it's all about control and freedom. With any proprietary OS, the computer tells you what you can do when it should be the other way around.

  •  'think different' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    earwulf

    Works here, doncha think?

    david/sf

    •  LY (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      Think differently!  I hate that ad campaign.  Yes, Ghandi = Mac, I see that. It's obvious now, how could I have been so blind?

      Seriously, that campaign was almost as much of an embarrassment as "Lemmings".

      Investigate now. Impeach later. Then Extradite. Then, something involving wolves...

      by nightsweat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:02:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Answer is simple. (5+ / 0-)

    Mac's are well designed, so they're faggy.

    PC's are not well designed, so they're good for middle Americans.

    The movie Idiocracy sums up the disparity in consumption between the informed (liberals) and the cattle (conservatives). There's no big surprise why Dell used cow designs to lure mouthbreathing middle Americans. Sex appeal.

    That's how it works. If it's a disposable piece of crap that you have to keep throwing money at, it's for conservatives. The Iraq War, etc.

    •  PC isn't a single brand (9+ / 0-)

      Maybe you meant to say "Windows is not well designed", and even then, I'd have to disagree.  XP, at least, is incredibly stable for me, and it does everything I need it to do (movie editing, photos, the web, etc).  I run into most of my problems because my computer isn't fast enough anymore, and some programs (Firefox, especially, as much as I love it) drag it down.

      If you have poorly-designed PC, though, switch brands.  And Gateway was the cow box, not Dell.

    •  Dell doesn't use cows. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chaoticfluffy, SBE

      Gateway does.

      Dell uses stoner surfer dudes.

      Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal. - Supertramp, "The Logical Song"

      by mentaldebris on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:40:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You know nothing about pc's (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry, Autarkh, SBE, KansasLiberal

      PC is the hardware. Not the brand.

      Intel or AMD and the cost of your mainboard/processor determines the base speed and functionality.

      If I run OSX on an intel box does that make it a MAC?

      I deal with MAC users everyday who still don't have any idea what their computer is doing and refuse to learn.

      I own or have owned every type of computer ever used including NeXTstep, IBM system 3, Sparc, C64, Osbourne and several Macs. All the MACs had a reset switch for when the thing hopelessly locked up and ya couldn't even zap the pram.

      I am willing to bet ya could not diagnose and fix a MAC if your life depended on it.

      The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

      by NCrefugee on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:50:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Someone is easily susceptible to marketing.. (8+ / 0-)

      and ties their self worth to the objects they buy.  Dells are consistently rated higher than Macs on every technology site.  For example, the top Dells have ratings of 8.4 and higher on Cnet... Macs best 7.4.  Keep flushing your money down the toilet because Mac marketing has convinced you that you're waaaaay cooler if you buy their computers.  It's comical that Mac users, free thinkers, don't bother to do any market research before making a large purchase, they just swallow the marketing wholesale because it reinforces what they want to believe.    

      Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

      by MatthewBrown on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:11:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  dell?! (5+ / 0-)

        I used to work for the CS department of a large state university. The Dell desktops they bought had an 80% failure rate within 6 months. (And I mean failure. Dead. Not simply needs repair.) And not just with us. Everywhere. The company Dell farms out their repair work to loves them because they have such a high failure rate and provide plenty of work.

        I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by sabishi on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:23:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit.. sorry (0+ / 0-)

          80% failure rate everywhere in six months and they all still buy them?  There hasn't been some mass expose/class action lawsuit of how Dell computers are all fucking garbage and break immediately?  All the computer rating sites and all the universities buying them are just in on the conspiracy I suppose?  

          Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

          by MatthewBrown on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 04:13:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Common American Ignorance. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jbirdski

        This is the common American reaction to people who choose to purchase fewer things so that they can purchase nicer things.

        Europeans understand what I'm saying. They take pride in the things they buy, and they expect them to last.

        Americans don't. You prefer a disposable lifestyle.

        The desire to surround oneself with fewer nicer things is not about one's self-worth.

        It's about supporting designers and people with intelligence rather than supporting Wal Mart.

        It's about an ethos of quality over quantity. It's about supporting companies and concepts that help diversify markets and lead to competition.

        The simple fact that Mac has come to balance out PCs and Widows is a great thing in itself. If it weren't for people like me, the computer industry would be garbage.

        If you don't get that, then there's not going to much that you do get.

        Better you just stick with your cartoons and bigotries about those of us who see value in design.

        Stick with your Wal Mart and Mcdees lifestyle; the one where you place no value in the things you purchase. Ignore the fact that we're living better than you, and you don't even know it.

        •  What a disgustingly (0+ / 0-)

          anti-American post. I share your philosophy about consumerism and I'm American. Check out this excellent article by Andrei S. Markovits about anti-American prejudice.

          Western Europe's America Problem

        •  Wow. Just wow. (0+ / 0-)

          This is probably the most self-righteous, snide and stereotypical post I have ever seen on this site (and it takes a special talent to stand out in a crowd of Mac users). Every word drips with derision, elitism, and imbecility. Take this:

          If it weren't for people like me, the computer industry would be garbage.

          I’m sorry, maybe I missed it... but who the fuck do you think you are? Do you hold advanced degrees in computer engineering and science? Are you some heretofore unknown luminary driving innovation in the information technology?
          Many people (including myself) take issue with consumerism, and such things as "disposable architecture" or the "buy-another-one-if-it-breaks" mentality, but to go from that to saying that no one except your enlightened in-group has any taste is an unjustifiable leap in logic. There are far more powerful factors at work than personal choice. Kindly, step off your pedestal. It doesn’t suit you.  

          "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

          by Autarkh on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:13:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "PC's are not well designed" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jmcgrew, Autarkh

      Really?

      Give me a budget of around $1500 and I'll show you a computer that can blow most Apple offerings away, especially for a comparable price.

      Take the party back for the people!
      -----
      Most. Annoying. Emphasis. Technique. Ever.

      by spurdy on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:18:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Conservatives buy PCs (6+ / 0-)

    because they love complaining about viruses and showering others with bunch emails about the latest viral threats, i.e. "DON'T OPEN YOUR EMAIL FOR AT LEAST A WEEK!!!!!!"

    "Keep America beautiful: grow a beard, take a bath, burn a billboard." - Ed Abbey

    by frankzappatista on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:51:48 AM PST

  •  huh? (9+ / 0-)

    snark?

    I'm a Democrat who is bored with Macs. Worked with them extensively since 1990 in all of their various iterations. I prefer PCs. Thanks.

    I think this will end in a flame war.

    RealClimate.org- READ IT

    by terrypinder on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:52:34 AM PST

      •  I can get a desktop PC (5+ / 0-)

        for free...or close to free. Or $300-400 if I don't ask my brother to create one out of parts.

        How much is a new Mac desktop? Less than $300-400?

        "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

        by kredwyn on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:07:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My own experience (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt, KansasLiberal

        Unable to afford a Mac, I've built my own PCs, incrementally, upgrading and adding components one by one as my very limited finances permit.

        Other than that I don't have a dog in this fight.  I actually think Macs are pretty cool, but my current PC can do some pretty awesome things. :)

        Scientia potentia est.

        by slksfca on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:12:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ummm... how about cost? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jmcgrew, KansasLiberal

        Macs cost at least twice as much as their equivilant PC counterparts.

        Mac software and hardware costs significantly more as well.

        Thanks,

        Mike

        •  Ummm... how about not? (5+ / 0-)

          The Mac Pro, Apple's top of the range computer, is just as cheap, if not cheaper than a Dell:

          http://www.theinquirer.net/...

          At the low end, sure, PCs are cheaper, but Apple aren't going for the bargain basement $300 PC, where the margins are low and the quality poor.  If you want something that cheap, buy a Dell.

          Mac software, like Office and Photoshop?  Stuff you can get for Windows as well?  Photostop CS2 costs $649 for both Windows and the Mac.  Office Pro 2004 for the Mac costs $499.  Office 2003 Pro for Windows costs the same.  Apeture (Mac) - $299.  Lightroom (PC) - $299.  Gosh, a difference of precisely $0 for four major pieces of software.  What a rip-off!  No wonder Steve is a billionaire!

          Mac hardware.  Hmm.  My Mac Pro takes standard PC hard drives, standard PC CD/DVD drives, standard PC memory.  It has standard USB ports, FW400/800, standard 3.5mm/1.8" audio in/out, standard digital audio in/out, standard Ethernet ports and standard Intel Xeon CPUs.  The only bits that are non-standard are the case, motherboard and its firmware.  I can use a PC printer with it, a PC mouse and keyboard, hook it up to the same monitor I used to have with my PC and so on.  It even runs Windows (quite well, actually!).

          And I needn't start to mention all the time I save in not having to mess around with anti-virus software, spyware removers, clogged up registries, product activation, 'phone home' functionality (WGA), annoying talking dogs/wizards/etc.  How much is all that worth?  More than the initial savings I'd get buying a Dell, I'd wager.

          "You're Bush's brains, Karl? I was expecting a much smaller man."

          by VincentVega on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:10:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Oh good... (16+ / 0-)

    Mac vs. PC war.

    Yay. Maybe we can argue whether there is or isn't a god next. Followed by an endless game of tic-tac-toe.

  •  I'm a Mac ho (9+ / 0-)

    We have 3 mac laptops, 2 iMacs and a mac Mini at home.  I learned on a mac years ago and then when I had to use a pc I felt so frustrated.  

  •  By buying a Mac, you're sticking it to the man? (21+ / 0-)

    Do you realize that you have swallowed a naked marketing ploy hook, line, and sinker?

    I like Windows, you like Mac.  I like peanut butter, you like soy.  I like Buddha, you like Jesus.

    So what.

  •  i use a Mac (12+ / 0-)

    my last one cost less than $300 and has been running like a champ for 3 years now. so much for that "it'll cost you an arm and a leg" nonsense

    i tried to help a friend with their woeful, pitiful, beseiged by bots PC the other day --- gad, those things are dinosaurs! when i told them all i had to do to make a program quit running was hit "Force Quit," they sobbed. somehow, control-alt-delete just isn't the same ...

    btw, the last time i participated in a PC vs Mac discussion on dKos, i got troll rated all to heck by PC users. hehe. sensitive little critters, aren't they?

    It's the planet, stupid. - Fishoutofwater

    by cookiebear on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:53:43 AM PST

  •  I think a poll's in order (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chaoticfluffy, Red no more

    And I'm betting the number of Mac users here is awfully low.  I LOVE Macs.  But, like most people, I work in an office environment dominated by wintels, and I don't have the time in my day to work out all the details of compatibility.

    There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured with what is right with America. -- Bill Clinton

    by ThirstyGator on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:54:22 AM PST

    •  don't need to poll (3+ / 0-)

      Data such as browser and operating system is collected on the server side and reported periodically in a "meta" diary.  I can't find a link right now but I think that 15-25% range is about right.

      •  should have waited for the search window (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ThirstyGator, CSI Bentonville, kurt

        Here's an old link:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...
        18% Mac in December 2004--presumably more Macs now (?)
        (I'm not on one, btw, but my next computer might be one--running Parallels virtual machine window to use Windows as needed for work).

      •  Inaccuracy... (0+ / 0-)

        Relying on browser-sent User-Agent strings is highly unreliable. That said, whatever the server logs say likely under-represents Macs. It's pretty simple to set Safari (the default Mac web browser) to spoof the User-Agent string to be, say, MSIE/Win 6.0 - sometimes necessary for poorly designed sites that try to detect browser and serve tailored content based on what's returned.

        Since MSIE/Win 6.0 is about the most common browser out there, lying and claiming that that's what you're running can avoid pages by lazy webmasters saying "We don't support your browser" (This is not an issue on DKOS; they've done a great job of being compatable. But once set for a particular window, the User-Agent remains "inaccurate")

        I doubt that many IE users have ever spoofed their user agent to claim to be running Safari instead, so the errors in User-Agent tend to accumulate in favor of the most common platform and browser.

        I haven't checked... does Instapundit claim to be incompatable with Safari, thereby artificially reducing the apparent Apple market share in their usage statistics?

  •  Liberals are inquisitive. (7+ / 0-)

    Conservatives, by nature, ain't.  Most folks, even current Mac users, got their start on PCs.  In order to make the "switch", I think you have to be at some level mentally comfortable trying new things.  The essence of liberalism is embracing the new and the different.  Change is the byword of liberals.  The essence of conservatism is status-quoism, the embracing of what is (or even, what was) as well as caution (and even fear of) change and the new.

    "Save the Cheerleader. Save the World."

    by goblue72 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:54:45 AM PST

  •  I live in a Mac/PC household both democrats (9+ / 0-)

    however, I use to tease my husband who is the Mac user that people who use Macs don't like to read they just like to look at the pictures.

  •  My new Dell (5+ / 0-)

    will kick your Mac's ass any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :+)

    I was a Mac dude in college, but I've had PCs ever since. Say what you will about klunkiness and viruses and adware, but just as quickly as these things become problems, there are people out there solving them.

    My chief complaint about Microsoft is that they should have quite with Windows 2000. XP was an attempt to "AOL" the PC, and make it as user-friendly as possible. For those of us in the know, however, XP did nothing more than setup obstacles to doing things quickly.

    Eh, so what?

    And, BTW, I won't touch Vista until at least the first service pack!

    •  2000 rules (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joshua Lyman

      best operating system ever. I think the harddrive that has it at home works fine. I harvested the RAM for another box though.

      never had any problems, no viruses, nothin, until the motherboard went south on me (it was 6 years old at that point). But the harddrive is probably still good. I can stick it in one of those external things NewEgg sells.

      RealClimate.org- READ IT

      by terrypinder on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:09:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My old Mac (4+ / 0-)

      ..but just as quickly as these things become problems, there are people out there solving them.

      Yeah there are people working on those things on the Mac side to... 30 years ago.

      XP and the NT kernel are great by themselves, Microsoft took it and started shooting buckshot in to it to make it conform with earlier single-user versions of windows. BSD and Mach (the foundation and predecessors of OS X) were designed with multiple users, networking and security in mind from day 1.

      All this posted from a G4 originally purchased in 2000, upgraded with about $600 of components since then and still running like a champ. Let's see you get that same distance with your new Dell.

      "George Bush is right in that there is an 'axis of evil', but it lies at the door of big business and government." Marcus Eoin, Boards of Canada

      by gropo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:52:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My heavens, I hope... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sacrelicious, CSI Bentonville, kurt

        we get that much mileage out of our new PC. We spent a lot of $$$ in order to ensure we wouldn't have any regrets about processor speed, memory and hard drive capacity. We don't want to buy anything new for a long, long time.

        My knowledge of the PC is probably what will help us make it last.

        Your background on the subject far exceeds mine, so I offer you your deserved props.

        I'll shoot a comment at you in 2014, let you know how we're doing, and to celebrate year 5 of Al Gore's presidency.

        Cheers!

      •  I bought a x86 white box in 1999... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sacrelicious

        I'm posting from it right now.

        Of course, the only original parts are the box and... the floppy cable may be original, which I'm planning to change Real Soon Now. (new heat sink is too tall to fit across from the power supply)

        The original processor was a K6/350, the current one is an Athlon 3500+.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:39:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

        My PC is that old.

  •  Macs are for the elites (7+ / 0-)

    The proletariat use the people's operating system on commodity hardware.

    That's right - CP/M, baby!!

    Investigate now. Impeach later. Then Extradite. Then, something involving wolves...

    by nightsweat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:02 AM PST

  •  My beloved blue Dell (3+ / 0-)

    ... has survived two big political conventions, a trip to Costa Rica, a hot dinner plate set on top of it and all manner of being banged around on my various adventures. It's done right by me and it's a scrawny, little thing in the neighborhood of 5 pounds if it were soaking wet (and it'd probably survive that, too), so there.

    You can have your Macs, but don't knock my favoritest gadget ever.

  •  Apple is a GOP-owned company (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GW Chimpzilla, jfm

    Sure, sure, we hear about Job, etc.

    But many top execs of Apple are GOPers.  Gil Amelio, former CEO of Apple, is the founder of attempted DailyKos right-wing clone thevanguard.org

    "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

    by lokiloki on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:09 AM PST

  •  I'm PC and loving it. (11+ / 0-)

    Okay, maybe not loving it, but comfortable with it.

    Btw, kudos on finding a non religious and non-political topic that will send scads of kossacks into righteous rage and indignation.

    No really.  This should be interesting.

    "A problem has been detected and Bush has been shut down to prevent damage to your country."

    by ArgusRun on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:16 AM PST

  •  I own both (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NCrefugee, synth, ScienceMom

    and prefer each for different applications.

    You might also consider that academia is predominantly Mac, & given the numbers of blog users who are associated with academia in some way, the numbers would tend to skew towards Mac.

    And hey - you do know that the evil Bill Gates owns part of Apple now don't you?

  •  I <3 my Mac (7+ / 0-)

    I'm an IT fellow from way back--cut my teeth programming on a VAX.  I've used everything from DEC mainframes, to Dell Laptops, and the only system that meets all my needs was my Mac.

    My iBook will run all the project management/software engineering apps I need--plus doubles as a server environment for when I need to test my web apps.

    On of my senior developers uses a Windows XP laptop--and to get his hardware to do what mine does, he's had to buy more RAM, and upgrade his hardware.  My iBook is 5 years old--it's cost me half of what a PC lapop would have cost me on a per-year basis--taking into account hardware and software upgrades.

    In the end, I buy best of breed--and it still costs me less in the long run.

    Sean

    -7.63, -4.77 | "Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B Pearson

    by whytwolf on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:55:55 AM PST

  •  I think the frame is wrong. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nightsweat, CSI Bentonville, SBE, jfm

    It's more left coast vs east coast then liberal vs conservative. Most of my relatives live on the Pacific coast, are conservative and own MACs. I'm liberal east coast and use a PC. Also the industry your involved with can have a lot to do with your choice. Publishers trend Mac while industrials trend PC. There may be some correlation between artsy folks trending liberal and MACs more common in artsy and education environments.

    "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle

    by java4every1 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:56:09 AM PST

  •  Little Unix systems pop up here and there ... (9+ / 0-)

    You mean, little unix systems like Mac?

    http://www.apple.com/...

    A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. - Benjamin Franklin

    by meowmissy on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:56:14 AM PST

  •  Delete this diary (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sacrelicious, Pompatus, YucatanMan, kurt, SBE

    Really really misguided and a little stupid...

  •  Was going to ask (7+ / 0-)

    where the Linux users came in, but I see other commenters have it covered.

    Right now, at work, I have a Dell D800 laptop runnning Ubuntu 6.10, an HP Intel dual-core dc7700 running Ubuntu 7.04 (fun!) and a Mac Cube.

    Running Ubuntu 6.10.

    On the other hand, I do have a Mac Mini running at home - and, due to dire threats from the lovely Mrs., it's still running OS X.

    Then there's her laptop running XP, the little one's non-networked Win ME box, and let's not get started on the Vista virtual machines.

    So, O prognosticator of politics-by-OS, where the hell do I fit in?

  •  Vista isn't bad, btw (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronS, ConLaw101

    I have it running on a 2Gb 2.4 Pentium from four years ago. Radeon 9600 AGP card handles the Aero interface without a problem.  Build your system and get the OEM version from NewEgg or ZipZoomFly and it's between $95 and $199 for the OS.

    It hated my Norton so I switched to AVG Free for Anti-virus and it works great.

    Investigate now. Impeach later. Then Extradite. Then, something involving wolves...

    by nightsweat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:57:22 AM PST

  •  I'm giving a talk in SF tonight related to this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, java4every1

    Global Climate Change and the Mac at the Exploratorium at the BMUG West meeting.

  •  Mac OS X as ideal operating system (6+ / 0-)

    Interestingly enough, a friend and I were just discussing this last night. I've maintained for years that the ideal OS was unix with an Apple user interface. Mac OS X is exactly that. Unix is a modular design that is easily extensible and has been able to evolve over the past 30 years to meet the changing needs. No other OS architecture has shown that kind of resiliency and flexibility.

    My friend then mentioned an op-ed he had seen where the jump in CPU data size is when a new OS can cement leadership. It pointed out how DOS won the 8-bit world, then Windows 3.1 took control in the 16-bit world, with Windows 2000 having a slight edge in the 32-bit world over unix variants, although it wasn't as clear-cut. The op-ed finished by saying Mac OS X has already mastered the 64-bit architecture, with Vista being an also-ran.

    For me the reason Apple makes the most sense is I want tools that help me do work, not tools that need work. If you need to think about how to keep your hammer functioning you're not focusing on what you're building. You spend too much time keeping the tool working.

    Who knows how it shakes out, but I think Apple's choice of unix underpinnings have allowed them to focus on what they do best, user interface. And this has freed them to go beyond computers into consumer electronics like the iPod and now the Apple TV and iPhone. Meanwhile Microsoft thinks they should treat users as criminals and make products to protect large media corporations. No thanks.

    Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

    by puppethead on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:58:39 AM PST

  •  I Kinda Agree (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pwwwayne

    But in a non-factful way.

    I've been a Mac user all my life.  My dad was a Mac user, as was my grandfather before him (my maternal grandfather, actually, but whatever), and so I was raised on a Mac until my dad decided that buying me a custom-built (as in, by a friend who builds computers) PC was horrendously cheaper than a Mac.  This happened while I was in high school, after spending years on the Mac vs. PC debate.

    I really think that the Mac has always represented a sort of counterculture, an exclusive group of people who aren't stupid, and while your random program would be for Windows, if you wanted a Mac program you could find a better one free online somewhere.  When I was in the Mac counterculture, it felt a little "communist" in that sense.

    Back then, Windows had the Start menu that eliminated the need for understanding ANYTHING about the computer's internal organization, so it always felt like Windows was the system of choice for the computer-illiterate (which does not imply that all Windows users are morons, especially since I now use Windows -- and Linux at work).  To the extent that conservatives are, by blanket false generalization, intellectually incurious, they probably do tend more towards Windows.

    •  It seems to me that the computer illiterate... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      ...always flocked to Macs.. after all, you couldn't really mess around with its internals.

      But, you are right, in that Microsoft really tries to treat users like idiots, like how they disable vieing of file extensions by default.  Why woudl they do that?  It only makes things harder all around.

      Thanks,

      Mike

      •  damn some of you guys are young. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        The changes win95-XP made is refered to as "MACed up"

        On mac os pre osx, you could not find a file extension without a hex editor unless it was a .bin or other archive.

        windows pre 95 ran on top of dos and some of the bugs present in core commands (copy?) are still present in the current xp versions.

        The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

        by NCrefugee on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:26:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Young??? (0+ / 0-)

          I'll have you know, young whippersnapper, that if I wasnted to program, I used to book time at my local library to code BASIC on the TRS-80 Model III and then save my resulting programs to cassette tape.

          Windows??? we didn't have no stinkin' windows?  I was lucky to get a clear screen on my TV with my sinclair 1000 (the first computer I owned)....  

          ;-)

          I realize that I'm not one of the TRUE old timers who used to code on old iron or mainframes (shudders... did that once.. never again), but I was on the ground floor of the microcomputer revolution.

          I'm not too familiar with Classic MacOS internals, but I always assumed that file type was identified by bytes in the file, not some hidden extension to the name.

          Thanks,

          Mike

        •  Slight correction. (0+ / 0-)

          Windows 9x ran on top of DOS. Windows 2000, XP, 2003 etc. are based on the NT kernel and can emulate DOS.

          "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

          by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:30:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Now if Apple will give up their customer list... (0+ / 0-)

    ...it would be worth a helluva lot more than any voter list.

  •  I remember CorelDRAW's intro as a happy day (0+ / 0-)

    because it meant that I could tell all my insufferably smug Mac friends where they could stick it.

  •  I use both.. Am I a centrist? (4+ / 0-)

    I have an older iBook and a couple of pc laptops at home of various vintages. I'll grab either and use them interchangably for the most part; the only exception is my work (as a programmer) when I use PCs almost exclusively 'cause that's our target platform and we use all the latest and greatest (er... and sometimes not so much) from M$. I don't really care how nice or how annoying these things are if I can change stuff around to my liking -- I've killed a decent number of process on my home PCs (XP running at under 100 MB of mem. usage on bootup) and turned off all of the bells and whistles to make it snappy. For hobby stuff (i.e., music) I still use either, the mac does have the distinct advantage of not having a noisy fan in the power supply (one of the laptops has a three-prong adapter which dumps all sorts of junk to ground and causes amps and stuff to buzz). But the mac doesn't have a good vnp client that works with our work network so I can't work from home in the same way (Remote Desktop is particularly nice, almost like being here). So I say both are fine.

    •  No, you're a flip flopper (7+ / 0-)

      poserp was FOR the command prompt BEFORE he was against it! :)

      Investigate now. Impeach later. Then Extradite. Then, something involving wolves...

      by nightsweat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:06:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  to be a real centrist (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh, poserp

      you have to use both Windows and Linux AT THE SAME TIME ON THE SAME BOX.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:44:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Done it. (0+ / 0-)

        For awhile I had Umbuntu 64 and XP on the same box, but I never used the linux stuff as much as I thought I would. I may do that again if my job prospects include C++ development for linux, but for now I'm sticking to mac/pc stuff. Waaay back when I had 98/2000/redhat on one box. If I do make that sort of a switch, though, I'll probably get different hard drives for each O.S. since I wouldn't be switching back and forth in the same session.

        •  I tried dual boot (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poserp

          I found that the next app I wanted was always on the other OS, so I dropped out of my Linux experiment until I could get an emulator so I could run Linux and Windows at the same time.

          Most apps I run are Linux. For Internet apps, malware problems aside, there isn't a lot of difference between running Windows or Linux clients.

          I run Windows for things like Eudora (switching several gigs of e-mail in an elaborate folder and filter setup is too painful to contemplate), MS Office when I have to generate 100% Word or Excel compatible docs (I use Open Office the rest of the time).

          It's even possible to work on a file with both Windows and Linux apps at the same time, very carefully. (save from one before working with the other) Though I wouldn't usually do it unless I had fairly exotic graphics needs.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:54:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If you thought (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raines

    you were a Macaholic, take a look at this guy's collection:

    http://www.flickr.com/...

    "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

    by hono lulu on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:59:48 AM PST

  •  I really like your theory... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virgomusic, chicago minx

    buying a Mac makes you liberal, although with a slight change -- using a Mac makes you liberal.  My son's high school is all laptop all the time -- the kids are issued laptops rather than textbooks, and the laptops are Macs.  Just think, a school of 750 kids being indocrinated into the liberal world...Unfortunately, the kids in the school tend to skew conservative, according to my son.  Sigh.

    Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

    by jules too on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:59:54 AM PST

  •  I use both (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cwech, Floja Roja, mystery2me

    so what does that make me?

  •  Conservatives: "Baaa-aa-aa-aa" (8+ / 0-)

    I usually find that the most insulting explanation of conservative behavior works best. Also, their whole thing was built on saying the same shit over and over, which is why the conservative movement is in such great shape now.

    As for us, Mac sells aesthetics, and I'm buying. Dunno about the rest of you. And I don't feel very nonconformist, not after seeing the line outside the Seattle Mac store when Tiger launched.

    "I didn't have good intelligence!"

    by el fuego on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:00:41 PM PST

  •  Now, this is (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tyronen, phenry, nightsweat, johnnyNYC, kurt, SBE

    the dumbest diary I've seen here in a long, long time.

    -- If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by Bombadil on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:00:48 PM PST

  •  I might be able to answer that (8+ / 0-)

    I should disclose that I do Mac support for a living.

    First, here's the thing about that "market share." That includes hoards of machines being used as cash registers and so on. When you include only machines being used as desktop computers, Apple's share is much larger.

    As for the percentage of visitors to instapundit versus Dailykos, I think some of it has to do with the types of corporations that use different machines. Macs are primarily found in publishing and advertising industries -- that's where I tend to work the most. The corporate cultures of these places are very flexible, allowing employees to surf the web whenever and wherever they want. I can tell you from experience that walking around the hallways of most magazines in New York, I see a lot of browsers pointed to Dailykos up on people's computer screens. The people who work at these places also tend to be more liberal.

    PC's are found in more general business environments -- financial institutions, insurance companies, and so on. These places are less flexible about allowing you to surf the web, and the people tend to be more conservative.

    So essentially, at work the liberal Mac users are being allowed to surf, and the conservative PC users are not.

    But generally speaking, I think the reason why conservatives don't buy Macs is because they fail to understand "gestalt." They fail to see how the sum of the parts can be greater than the whole. This is just as true when they look at building a computer as it is when they look at building a society. They simply can't understand the concept of all the pieces working together to create a better functioning system.


    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

    by Zackpunk on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:02:18 PM PST

  •  This is a front page diary? (10+ / 0-)

    Seriously, this is NOT front page material.

    Or are you just bored or something?

  •  Conservative Republicans Are Neanderthals (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal

    Dont you remmeber Karl Roves Math, he, the so called "Architect" and Bushs "Brain" proved that they don't even know how to do a simple poll.

    Out of 68 polls all were wrong.

  •  Personal media player twist on the tale (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, jmcgrew, Chaoticfluffy, rpbird, SBE

    It seems to me that the conformist is buying the ipod media player and the rugged individual is going for the Zune (microsoft) or the Creative M.  
    This is based on an informal survey of my gym, online reviews, and observations of subway riders.  

    •  We got two MP3's this Christmas (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry

      both Zunes.  Now my spare time is spent figuring out how I can get my husband to trade his Zune for my Nano...Never gonna happen, and I love my Nano, but I am gonna get my own Zune one of these days...

      We switched from IPod to Zune really quickly, and I don't think we will be going back.  

      Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

      by jules too on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:09:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am in the researching stage (0+ / 0-)

        I want to upgrade from a generic MP3 to a media player.  None of my current content will work on the ipod so I doubt I will be buying the ipod.
        Everytime I see someone with a Zune I ask them what they think.  In general, they love the Zune.  Creative M will handle the most format types.  

        •  I don't know about content... (0+ / 0-)

          My husband had a really crappy cheap MP3 player he never used, so we bought him a Zune, because my teenage son convinced me it would be much better than a IPod Shuffle, and $50 more than a Nano, and has lots more memory or something...As far as switching over goes, my son is having to load all his songs he bought from ITunes onto CDs or memory sticks or something and move them over, but the tracks he downloaded from our CDs moved automatically.  He definitely thinks it is worth it, but I am not sure he did much research, since he loves Microsoft and wears a "Gates is my Homeboy" t shirt -- loves Microsoft because he adores his XBox 360.  Plus -- and this is rather convoluted so bear with me -- he can load music into the Zune program on the computer and then listen to it through his XBox when it is connected to the internets.  I think, if I understood him right...Which is really cool, because otherwise he has to load all the music directly into the X Box.  

          Good luck figuring out which choice to make, and I hope you are happy with it when you upgrade!  

          Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

          by jules too on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:23:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  content won't work? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brainwrap, jmcgrew

          I want to upgrade from a generic MP3 to a media player.  None of my current content will work on the ipod so I doubt I will be buying the ipod.

          I'm confused by this comment. If you have a "generic MP3 player" now, I would assume most of your current content would be in MP3 format. Which plays perfectly on the iPod.

          •  You may know better but (0+ / 0-)

            I have been told by several people that the content I already downloaded from Rhapsidy and Urge will not work on the ipod. It is very overwhelming trying to figure out the various players pro's and con's.  I have no personal preference for either one although I have noticed that they do seem to spark intense debate.  
            Can you confirm that all the songs I have downloaded from Rhapsidy and Urge will work on the new ipod personal media player.

  •  Linux on Thinkpad FTW (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SBE, jfm

    And then there's that <1% of us who use neither.</p>

  •  Well- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floja Roja

    I do believe that one of the side effects of eating "the apple" in the Garden of Eden was that we would know both good and evil.  

    Lobbyists need Republicans like pimps need whores.

    by electricgrendel on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:03:33 PM PST

  •  Not PC; FP... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, kurt, SBE

    ...as in "Why is this Diary FP?"

    There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't. - Robert Benchley

    by dj angst on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:03:53 PM PST

  •  I don't live in your box (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbeach, SBE

    Thank you for your hole, pidgeon, but I prefer my apartment.

  •  From Conan (9+ / 0-)

    "Apple Computer has issued a recall on several models of Mac laptops because the battery can overheat and catch fire. Experts say a Mac fire is just like a PC fire except it’s more hip and condescending."

    Now that Intel is in Macs they're all the same anyway.  I don't really care about the OS I'm running, and from my experience you can get a Windows-based PC a lot cheaper than a Mac with comparable hardware specs

  •  Got a G4 laptop and G5 Dual Tower - LOVE EM! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pwwwayne

    I have been an Apple owner since my first computer a Apple LC  - one of the first color computer = looked like a pizza box had a 10 inch monitor and cost more than my current G5 tower cost.... went on to a 6100 Power PC - then to a G4 tower - than the G4 laptop and finally the G5 tower..... Definitely the computer for the rugged individual!!

    Al Gore used Macs in the making of Inconvenient  Truth!!!

  •  Breaking: Fleischer contradicts Libby on Plame (8+ / 0-)

    Didn't know where else to put this.

    New York Times, posted 2:22pm 1/29/07

    WASHINGTON, Jan. 29 — The former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer today contradicted the account of I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff, on when Mr. Libby first learned the identity of a C.I.A. agent.

    Mr. Fleischer, testifying in Mr. Libby’s trial under a grant of immunity, said Mr. Libby told him over lunch on July 7, 2003, that the wife of a critic of President Bush’s Iraq policy worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. That is three days before he told a grand jury that he first learned her name.

    "This is hush-hush," Mr. Fleischer recalled Mr. Libby as saying in effect. "This is on the Q.T. Not many people know about this."

    "I think once they get in harm's way, Congress's tradition is to support those troops." --Stephen J. Hadley

    by dov12348 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:05:07 PM PST

  •  Mac user; MCSA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard

    I use Macs for home and photo, audio work.  Microsoft network engineer at work.

    PC's are used by most businesses because of some marketing challenge in the mid 1980's that went unmet by Gil and his bad judgement.  So the myth at first, then reality was that Apple had no "productivity" software.  M$ didn't at first either, until they made Office.

  •  This whole post is fucking ridiculous. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linnen, phenry, YucatanMan, kurt, SBE

    You should lose your front-page posting privledges for writing this.

  •  I'd like to see Urban/Rural data (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mystery2me

    We know urban areas tend to be more liberal.  That said, rural areas are sometimes forced to go with the status quo.  

    For example, my parents only buy PC's because there's not an Apple Store within 200 miles.  Given you can purchase them off the internet, but being a bit old fashioned, they were worried about having to travel to get it serviced.

    •  $$ difference less to urbanites? (0+ / 0-)

      Urban people have a higher income on average to go with their higher cost of living. This can sometimes mean that their marginal income (leftover after the basics) is higher, and the price differential thus less significant. This would argue for more macs in the city.

  •  Wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    java4every1, SBE

    Windows is made by Microsoft, a big company with a history of monopolist behavior.  Liberals don't trust big companies and they don't like monopolies.  So liberals seek out alternatives to Microsoft.  Kos himself has flatly refused to even consider running this site on Windows servers, for instance.

    That being said, I have a PC with Windows and Linux dual-booting.  The cost of Mac hardware, and the pain of migrating, just isn't worth it for me.

    Macs are better only for word processing and video editing.  For web, email, spreadsheets, presentations, and photo editing the two are about the same.  For games, Windows wins hands down.  For freeware and shareware, Linux leads the way, followed by Windows.

    As for which is easiest to program for - Linux, of course, then Windows.  I really don't want to have to learn Objective-C, not because it's an inferior language, but simply because it has no market outside the Mac, and I have a career to think of.

    •  My guess would be stability and maintainability (0+ / 0-)

      rather than ideology are the main reason for not running on Windows servers.

      As for programming (as in creating applications for), I wouldn't really know. I would guess the Unix underneath OS X allows you to compile other stuff than Objective C, no?

    •  Nice and on-topic leading paragraph. (0+ / 0-)
      Unfortunately, you do nothing to show why liberal might go with the Mac/Apple brand.

      Personally, I am in your camp.  If I wanted to drop a couple of K USD, I'd build a system from the ground up.

      'Pundit' is a Latin term for 'Concern Troll'.

      by linnen on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:48:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  So you wanted to start a flame war, huh? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, lgmcp, kurt, SBE

    You just couldn't help yourself, is that it?

    "A man who won't die for something isn't fit to live." -MLK

    by gjohnsit on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:09:12 PM PST

  •  Ridiculous commentary (9+ / 0-)

    I am a computer geek with 25 years of experience. I still have my original IBM PC boxed up and stored. I use PCs. My wife uses a PC and an Apple, the latter for her job. So I get the indubital pleasure of support it.
    I am sick to death of the religious wars between PC and Apple advocates. The current Apple ad campaigns are pathetic ad hominems of the most pitiable variety.
    For your information, the new Apple OS is nothing but UNIX under the hood wearing a pretty skirt to fool you. There is no Apple operating system anymore. It is UNIX in drag.
    I have to support my wife's Apple, and I can tell you that while it may be intuitive for end users who are focused just on their desktop publishing or other activity, for doing tech support it is still a frigging nightmare. It is not only unintuitive, it is sometimes absolutely counterintuitive.
    As for Vista, my gripe with it is that it is bloated, bloated, bloated beyond belief. Don't even plan to install it unless you have a honkin' new PC with at LEAST 1 GB of RAM, and 2 if you want to do anything, a Pentium 4 class CPU that is fast as possible, probably 3ghz or better, and great gobs of hard disk space. Bloat defines not only the Vista OS, it absolutely defines the new .NET framework used for developing applications. I am starting to see vendor and off the shelf products that require it, and typically they require disk storage on a order of multiples of what it took with prior development software just to store the program, the .NET framework, and all the ancillary crap on the hard drive.
    I won't even go into detail on the new Microsoft registration, that forces you to register with their database, and if you don't functionality starts shutting down after a few months till the OS won't fire up anything but notepad. "Big Brother 'R Us" should be MS's new mottos.
    But back to Mac OS X, which as I pointed out is UNIX all gussied up to fool anti-geek liberal geeks, I still prefer my PC. And if I need to feel like a real geek, I use my LINUX workstation or LINUX (RedHatES) email server.
    Sheesh.
    And here we thought religious wars were all about religion.

    •  .NET 2.0 redistributable is 22MB (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry

      That's not exactly "bloat" of the type you're claiming, especially given the amount of functionality it provides.

      You make some other good points. Don't weaken them by exaggerating where you don't need to.

      •  Bloat is in the apps, not just the .NET framework (0+ / 0-)

        What I am seeing is not just the .NET framework size, but the apps that are being built on it are tending to be bulkier and have greater space requirements. This actually has been a consistent trend in  the evolution of Microsoft Windows OS and related development tools from Microsoft, even extending to their Office Suite, which just keeps getting bulkier.
        Related to this development historically is one of my favorite phrases to describe the nightmare of maintaining a stable image of the Windows OS from the Windows NT version of the system: the emergence of 'DLL Hell', which aluded to the proliferation of dynamic link libraries which scattered the core of the OS hither and yon. At one point we had a build sheet for NT 4.0 servers and service packs that was several pages long. If you had to reinstall a server from scratch, by the time you got to the application of Service Pack 4, and that server was going to run the IIS web service and other MS servers, like SQL server, one error in the order in which you applied each step of the install and update process would break the entire install, and you had to flush and start from scratch. What fun that was.
        Actualy the Windows 2003 server OS is a vast leap forward for Microsoft, I will give it that.
        P.S. I own a small chunk of Microsoft stock, so this is not just Microsoft bashing. I support and develop every day on MS platforms. I also don't delude myself with religious mania regarding computing platforms.

      •  If 22 Megabytes isn't Bloat... (0+ / 0-)

        ...what in the world is?

        best,

        john

        jabney co-writes - at www.thecodes.net

        by jabney on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 06:59:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Apple Use (9+ / 0-)

    OK, let's get this straight:

    Apple use is by no means more ideologically compatible with liberalism than PC usage. Like Microsoft, Apple has again and again engaged in predatory business practices.

    To whit:
    1)
    They abuse their DRM system
    to keep users of ITunes locked into using their overpriced, poorly-built IPods.

    2)They tie down users of their operating system to their own overpriced hardware.

    3)They sue anyone they perceive as infringing on their intellectual property, but will gladly infringe on other companies' trademarks.

    Apple has been pulling stunts like this for years. While Jobs can be described left-winger himself (as can Gates in many ways!), and Apples are popular among the hipster intelligensia, Apple would gladly become the monopolistic giant Microsoft has become given the opportunity.

    I'm not saying that all users should jump ship to community-developed OSes like FreeBSD or Linux, which are admittedly more technical in nature. But it's completely disingenuous to claim that Macs are somehow more "liberal" than pcs. That and it only plays into the tired right-wing stereotype of liberals as insufferable latte-swilling, Mac-toting pissants.

  •  I'm sick of this stuff (6+ / 0-)

    Mac / PC
    Verizon / Cingular / whatever

    It's as if some evil powers that be have set everything up so we must all pick a side and hate absolutely everything about the other side, like it's some goddamned football team rivalry.

    "Their" side is fat and dumpy (as per the current stupid Mac commercials these days), but our side is cool and hip. (I have a Mac and love it, BTW.)

    There was a diary the other day about cell phone providers. People were saying "Cingular is the worst company on the planet" "Verizon sucks ass" etc. Finally someone said, "you know, it all depends on where you are. X company is good in some places, crappy in others."

    (rant over)

    humani nil a me alienum puto (I consider nothing human foreign to me) --Terence

    by astraea on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:09:53 PM PST

  •  Oh Devilstower (8+ / 0-)

    Nooooo

    Don't start the religious wars here... don't you know what it's like at Slashdot? Don't we have enough ways to divide the "liberal" tag as it is? (And I'm speaking as a proselytizing Mac user in full support of your general position, who is helping two or three recent switchers at the moment.)

    IMHO — and I definitely don't have numbers, this is strictly speculation based on personal experience doing Mac IT support — there may be a weak liberal/Mac - conservative/PC correlation, but I'll bet the principle correlation is just income. The real question is, what are the respective demographics of liberals and conservatives? Apple's targeting a specific income band. There may be more liberals in that particular band (say the 80th-95th percentile) who can afford Macs, which are more expensive and are not marketed as commodity boxes. The upper-upper income band on the other hand may be strongly conservative, but there are a lot less of them (and I'll bet Jeeves types their URLs anyway). That leaves the bulk of the populace, conservative and liberal, to take what they can get at Wal-Mart and Best Buy.

    Sisyphus couldn't waste as much energy as the endlessly repeating Mac-vs-PC price, usability, and general mine's-better flamewars.

  •  Snarky comments upthread aside... (15+ / 0-)

    I hate this discussion.  It's ridiculous.  I use Mac because I hate Windows.  No- that does not make Windows a bad product.  That makes Windows a bad product....for me.

    I'm sure that Linux is superior.  All of the geeks who, of course, have no personal capital invested in being the most esoteric and arcane are quick to tell me so.  I've tried using it and the GUI was okay.  I hated command line.

    I like OS X because of the interface.  I don't game or do any of those things that require a windows box.  And yes- I think that the Windows system is ugly.  The asthetics are just awful.  I think OS X is much sleekier/cooler.  That's something i cared about so I bought a Mac.

    That doesn't make Macs a superior product.  It just makes it my prefered product.

    So people should really just stop this argument.  Both systems have strengths and both have weaknesses.  Linux and it's more palatable version Ubuntu both have strengths and weaknesses.  In the end it is a preference of the consumer.  To debate that is as idiotic as debating why I dislike the color brown but like the color green.

    It's a silly, masturbatory argument and really shouldn't be had.

    Lobbyists need Republicans like pimps need whores.

    by electricgrendel on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:12:02 PM PST

  •  I thought it was... (5+ / 0-)

    ...the free doobage that comes with every Mac.  (Look under the battery....)

  •  15% and 25% of visitors to this site (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, peelinglayers, SBE

    are using Macs... I'm happy to be part of the remaining 75% to 85%.

    And, please quit wasting my Front Page reading time.

    •  hahahaha.. there's your typical PC user (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Floja Roja, Hannibal, virgomusic

      they have to waste so much time fixing and understanding their PC's, they just assume they have to waste time in everything!

      here's a clue:

      If you don't want to "waste time" reading about Macs..

      DONT READ A DIARY ABOUT MACS!

      •  Rude much? (6+ / 0-)

        Your condescending air of superiority is tiresome. Is that the hallmark of the typical Mac user or should I not generalize?

        I read because I was waiting for the diary to make a real point. By the time I realized that there was none, I'd politely read the entire article.

        For the record, I have PC running Linux that I built myself. (And I'm a middle-aged woman as long as we're into sweeping generalizations and nasty stereotypes.)

        My primary use of my machine is to run Pro-E. My PC is a better choice for that application.

        Oh, and for the record, I would say that it was my Pickett slide rule that made me liberal - back in the dark ages while Mac and Windows were both still wet dreams.

    •  You got the stats (0+ / 0-)
      I'd like to see that.  

      3.5% of the internet uses Macs.
      http://www.w3schools.com/...

  •  Hmmm.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, jmcgrew

    Maybe you should just rewrite this, ask Apple to help you with "backdating".

    Ah, that ethical liberal Apple. Fuck them, they can't even create proper computers. Same goes with iPhone (if the specs are true)

    "I have a dream" King Jr.

    "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

    by allmost liberal european on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:12:16 PM PST

  •  This diary is really beneath a (14+ / 0-)

    KOS front pager to post. How wrong is it?

    1.  Engages in blatent stereotyping for no good purpose.
    1.  Insults through innuendo all those liberals, progressives and middle-of-the roaders who use PCs solely for the purpose of advancing a silly theory with no basis.
    1.  Ignores the fact that a 5% market share leaves 95% of the rest of the market with a different product.  Those 95% are split about 80% against the war and 20% for the war.  What does that tell you about your silly theory.
    1.  Lots of people with Macs showed up at Yearly KOS - maybe 3x their market share in the public-at-large.  So... what....?  Maybe 3x as many people at Yearly KOS had all-cotton shirts.  Again, So What?

    Honestly. This is an insulting diary.  It is not funny. It is not entertaining. It does not advance the progressive cause. It does not help Democrats get elected. If anything, it hurts Democrats by claiming some sort of odd philosophical relationship between those who buy more expensive hardware/software and their political leanings.

    It is just flat out wrong. Take it down.  What a waste of bandwidth.

    •  re (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bree

      The numbers of people visting the respective blogs and their respective OSes is not sterotyping...

      He's not saying every PC user is a right winger...

      Its a window into something...

      "Steve Holt (D - Arrested Development)" - Steve Holt

      by cookiesandmilk on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:15:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Window? (0+ / 0-)

        I see rotten apples. One is too many.

        "I have a dream" King Jr.

        "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

        by allmost liberal european on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:17:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The diary goes farther than that: (7+ / 0-)

        So here's a question: why?  Why do liberals like Macs, while conservatives shun them?

        * The Fiscal Conservative Theory: conservatives are, well, conservative.  They go for lowest bottom dollar price they can find, and (traditionally at least, though not so much of late) Apple products tend to cost a bit more than the average.  So conservative PC numbers are bolstered by a bunch of bare-bones models bought on the cheap.

        * Conformists vs Individuals Theory: despite conservative rhetoric that champions the "rugged individual," the whole point of social conservatism has traditionally been to knock down those nails that stand up above the rest of the row.  In short, conservatives buy PCs because they want to buy what everyone else has.  Liberals buy Macs because they want to put a metaphorical finger in the eye of "the man" (assuming that finger could penetrate Bill Gate's thick glasses).

        * The Hip vs Tragically Unhip Theory: It's been true since at least the 50s, daddio.  Conservatives are squares, dig it?  So conservatives buy computers that look like gray lunch buckets and run with all the flair of operating instructions.  Liberals, beret owners from way back, think Apple's designs are the ginchiest.

        * The Artists vs. Sausage Makers Theory: Not to say that a good Boerewors is not an art in itself, but the theory here is that liberals are more interested in all things artistic, and more likely to be employed at things that require artistic talent (and if you have a theory about why that should be, write your own post).  Conservatives are more likely to be plodding through the numbers and writing memos about the supplies in the company bathroom.  So liberals buy Macs because of the variety and power of media software available for the system.

        * The Shallow Value vs Deep Value Theory: A variant on the first theory (conservatives are skinflints), this one says that conservatives buy whatever's cheapest without taking into account the real value this represents.  Liberals study the big picture and decide the Mac represents a better overall value, even if the initial price tag causes a moment of sticker shock.

        Since 85% of the people at YearlyKOS did NOT have Macs, were 85% of the people at YearlyKOS:

        1. Fiscal conservatives who love "bare bones" and "cheap"?
        1. Conformists?  Ha!  KOS was a gathering spot for those who rejected the crap being pedaled by the MSM and corporate news.
        1.  Tragically unhip?  Having not seen a fashion review of YearlyKOS, I am unable to comment. However, it is still insulting, whether they were or not.
        1.  Unartistic, Uncreative sausage makers?  Judging from normal front page quality, KOS folks are pretty damn creative and deep thinkers.
        1.  Shallow?  Get out.

        I repeat my charge:  This diary is nothing more than divisive garbage. It should not be Front Paged.

  •  re (0+ / 0-)

    In 1984, Apple launched the Mac and called it a "Tool for your mind."

    It has been that way ever since.

    PCs and Windows are general tools...

    It comes down to what people want to do with it, use it like a calculator or use it like a pen that can write the greatest Opera ever...

    There truly is a difference.

    "Steve Holt (D - Arrested Development)" - Steve Holt

    by cookiesandmilk on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:13:44 PM PST

  •  I love Microsoft an I am a George Bush hateing.. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, SlowNomad, jbeach, rpbird

    George Soros loving Liberal and proud of my Love aof Microsoft.. My theory is that Mac people are fascists... just kidding here. Pcs. .Macs.. Linux, Sun.. they all have thier place.. I have used them all.. I just like PCs because I can tweak them out better without knowing Pearl.. And I can swap out an old video card for two Geforce 8800 GTS cards any time I like...

  •  Oh, brother (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, andgarden, Lesser Dane, SBE

    After reading just a smidge of this conversation, I think I'll go do something more productive, like read a political discussion on slashdot.

    Seriously, who gives a rat's ass what kind of computers people use???  I had an Apple II, I worked at IBM when they launched the original PC, and I've published one book and dozens of articles on computer programming over the years.  And I have to tell ya--computer preference is one of the least interesting things you can know about a human being.

  •  regional identity? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rpbird

    This might be a large part of the reason. I would suspect, with no hard evidence but my own living experience in NY, SF and now LA, that a large proportion of coast-dwellers use Macs, and also happen to be liberal.

    Therefore people see Macs, know people who use them and know that they're good systems.

    Whereas in the Southern and Midwest states, less people use Macs; so less of those dwellers who happen to be conservative will tend to see Macs and know Mac users, and thus be aware of them as good systems.

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:14:03 PM PST

  •  I hope (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Autarkh, SBE

    I hope Kos receives some compensation for the bullshit apple commercial.

    Apples are nice to look at but in the end are WAY over priced.  Please don't buy into that media software crap either, maybe 5 to 10 years ago MAC had an edge but not today.

    To each their own but why pay for an "image".

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:14:10 PM PST

    •  Anyone using the all-caps MAC... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbirdski, virgomusic

      ....to describe a computer running the Mac OS gets the same response as people who talk about the "Democrat Party" instead of the "DemocratIC Party"--which is to say, I totally write off whatever else they have to say about the subject.

      MAC = Media Access Control, as in a MAC Address.

      Mac = Macintosh or Mac OS computer.

      •  well (0+ / 0-)

        well MAC can also mean Mid Atalntic conference and  host of other things. That is why we grown ups use "context".   Maybe you'll understand one day when you become a big boy.

        Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

        by pissedpatriot on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:51:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I just bought a new mac last Thursday (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cookiesandmilk

    My beloved dome iMac died by cat, (hair actually). I didn't realize how much I loved that machine till it was gone. I grieved for it like it was a pet that had died.

    Now I have my new Mac and I am in love again. I couldn't use a PC if my life depended on it. (Well maybe.) I just don't have the patience.

    P.S. I was in a shop yesterday that had SEVEN dome iMacs. I felt like a heroin addict in a room full of heroin. I actually got a high from being around those beautiful domes. Go figure. It's art to me.

  •  Oh, obnoxious (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linnen, phenry, poemless, Chaoticfluffy, SBE

    I'm a liberal who would never buy an Apple product. Why? Because I'm not a fool, and I don't want to part with my money oh-so-soon. When it comes to my computer, I'm more interested in the end product than in what either the box or the icons look like. And, yes, I'm a publications designer who's discovered that both Adobe programs and well-designed typefaces from respected foundries work juuuuuuust fine with Windows.

    If translucent plastic and glass buttons are your thing, then, fine, go for the Mac. I figure that the box will get covered in dust anyway, no matter whether it's beige (actually, mine is more like black and a gunmetal color) or translucent plastic, and, even so, I don't really feel like making it a part of the decor. It's just a damned functional machine.

  •  the Mac Cult is utter BS (11+ / 0-)

    As if Steve is really a more deserving millionaire.  

    If you're getting your identity from an operating system, you've got issues other than politics on your mind.  

  •  Was this meant to be a troll? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poemless, cwech, fugue, SBE

    I've been using, making my living with, Macs and PCs for a long time.  There are nuances to the software and hardware of both systems, and those have been debated endlessly since before almost any of us were on the Internet.

    But, if you're going to discuss this issue, due so on the merits of each machine, not on what their marketing departments told you.  

    I've thought that one of the purposes of this site was to take a critical look at politics and distill reality out of spin.  Why should that reverse when it comes to computers?

  •  server tech they use for their lame blogs (0+ / 0-)

    Does anyone have the stats on whether they prefer .NET/ASP/VBScript (Darth Vader tech) or PHP/mySQL/Java (the good guys)?  

  •  In the '06 campaign... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, SlowNomad, SBE

    Some of my fellow Kossacks were telling WA-08 candidate Darcy Burner to "play down" her recent employment at Microsoft, because, as they said, "Some people don't like MS."

    Given that MS is the big employer in WA-08, I found that an odd suggestion.

    As a guy who grew up in Redmond WA during Microsoft's golden years, even if the PC sucks ass, they've done a lot for WA state.  I like Apple more, but I still gotta stick up for my home team.

    HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

    by willkk on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:17:26 PM PST

    •  I can explain this... (0+ / 0-)

      ...and it's not exactly about Microsoft.

      You have to realize that in WA-08, once you go south of entry point into Renton, and due east of Issaquah then off of I-90, but most especially once you go south of Kent/Covington, you have a much more working class ethos going on than up on the northern, Bellevue/Mercer Island/Issaquah/Sammammish axis.

      And they look at the changes all that money and development have brought, and most of them are none too happy about it.  

      Boeing-Auburn has shrunk a lot in the last few years, which means lots less good-paying jobs for blue collar folks.  People are going all the way out to Orting or Enumclaw, of all places, to find a house they can afford, then commute as far north as Seattle to be able to pay for the place.  

      These people feel pretty much left out of the picture of the prosperous side of Western Washington.  And, for better or worse, it doesn't help that South King County has probably the highest influx of nonwhites into the region, and that most of them are either doing a lot better or a lot worse than the folks that were there twenty and thirty years ago.

      Being part of Microsoft, for many of the folks in the southernmost end of WA-08, is being part of a  world that doesn't acknowledge them.

      My two bits...

      God gave us his own child as a sacrifice. Bush wants to take yours...

      by Palamedes on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 05:28:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You might have missed my point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phenry

        Kossacks were telling Darcy to not talk about MS on dkos, not giving her strategic advice.

        Darcy had mentioned in a diary containing her bio that she worked for MS.  A few of our community members whined, saying she shouldn't talk about here.  It was weird.

        But your assessment of of the rural parts of the 8th are dead on in any case.

        HorsesAss.org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press

        by willkk on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:27:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I Use Linux and I'm Liberal (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plumberwill, SBE, jfm, willkk

    I've used Linux (RedHat, Mandrake and now SuSE) for the past 10 years now on all my machines, and don't like the lack of choice or corporate nature of either M$ or Apple.

    In my experience, there are lots and lots of liberals and progressives in both the Linux and Open-Source communities.

    Jim
    Seattle

  •  One reason: homophobia (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linnen, jfm

    No joke.  

    There is a perception among some that Macs are  for "gays".  

    (Although The Steve would never admit it, this is one reason Apple plutoed the previous rainbow coloring of their bitten-apple logo, as it was equated with a gay rainbow type of flag).

    Erudite, slick, dressed well, more costly, expensively accessorised, appealing especially to artists---oh sorry artistes---and musicians?

    Oh yeah, and supposedly they can't do "real work".

    And that Mac users are a persistently snobby minority?

    now the viral load aspect, that's another story...

    Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

    by mbkennel on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:18:26 PM PST

    •  how about that 90% are dead by age 45 (0+ / 0-)

      You know the bit of Christianist "wisdom" (never supported with evidence) about how gay people are all so riddled with sodomy-induced disease that they drop dead by the time they hit middle age (and thankfully never have to work on those love handles that heterosexuals live to develop!).

      I don't know how computer years correspond to actual years (you know, like how a dog year is one seventh of an actual solar year), but I have a Mac SE built in 1988 that still works fine, which seems like a long time given how thoroughly obsolete it is. Old PCs also last a long time but they tend to become obsolete much faster.  An old DOS machine really isn't good for much except use as a hutch for pet yellow jackets.

  •  Hmph. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, SBE

    I have been a practicing artist (painter) for over 35 years.  I started voting Democratic in June, 1972, when I voted for Shirley Chisholm in the California Primary.  I learned my computer skills on a PC in 1986, after many years in an airplane serving meals and pointing to the nearest exits.  I still work on a PC for the sense of familiarity more than anything.  

    As much as I hate some aspects of Windows, it's more about just getting things done on an otherwise reliable machine and getting back to the studio.  Pffft.  Who cares about hip or cool?  I care about what I put my hands to in the physical world, the paint, the canvas, the paper ballot checked off all in the wisest, most responsible choices--always from my perspective of minus 5.63, minus 7.59.

  •  How about LINUX!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floja Roja, Hannibal, SBE

    And what about Amiga? OS/2??

    You're all fascists!!! I'm going back to nature with my abacus and some megaliths!

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:20:17 PM PST

  •  sheesh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcjoan

    some people really need to chill out and you know.. like relax.

    If anything, this post demostrates people are way to wound up and stressing out.

    And BEFORE i get replies telling me in detail whats going on in the world around me and how horrible and wretched it is.. think about this for a moment.. You cant help change or fix anything if your stressed out, tired and ran yourself into the ground.

    I saw this as a tongue in cheek, its a damn shame people are too fucking wrung out to see anything but gloom and doom.

  •  Elite beyond the Mac Elite (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linnen, phenry, Floja Roja, Autarkh, SBE

    I build my own machines.  They are usually dual-boot systems (actually, since I keep an old copy of win98 for legacy games like Myst, they're multi-boot systems) running a flavor of Linux and Win2k (though I might spring for a copy of XP soon, I hate to be too far behind the latest Windows release).  My favorite Linux right now:  Kubuntu (kubuntu.org).  I'd love to build Macs, but I can't.  To explain, here are a couple clips from forums.macrumors.com.
    ___

    It isn't quite that easy [to build a Mac]. As I understand it, the Macintels (not mactels ) use EFI or whatever it is instead of a normal BIOS. They also have some sort of device that Apple recently filed a patent for that is meant to keep OS X off of non-Apple computers.
    ___

    Since you are coming from a background of building PC's I'll approach the question from that perspective. In the PC world you can buy the parts brand new, and build a PC cheaper or at a comparable price to buying one from a retailer.

    THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WITH A MAC

    To build a Mac from parts you'd have to either:

    1.Buy used or old parts and get exactly the right ones for the Mac you are trying to build. Here you have the problem of the reliability of the part you purchased. In addition, given the way apple's been cutting prices you will probably end up paying just as much if you start from scratch, as you would spend just buying a new mac.

    2.Buy new parts from places that stock mac parts. There are a very few places that will sell a consumer brand new replacement parts for Apple computers. The problem is that they charge a high markup on the parts, so unless you only needed one specific part it wouldn't make economic sense to buy all the parts from these re-sellers. If you did for some reason try to buy all the parts new from them, you'd easily end up paying 4-5 times the cost of the new computer bought fully assembled and working from apple.
    ___

    The supposedly enlightened Mac is so filled with proprietary crap that they are impossible to build.  So I'll stick with the PC.  Go to a home-built site and look at the illos of the PCs there and then ask yourself:  "Who's cool now?"

    •  So true (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh, SBE

      Apple owes its corporate life to its ability to convince people that a "computer" is more than the sum of its parts ... that it's not a box with hard drives, a video card, a motherboard, a CPU, and so on, but that it's a beautiful little rounded sculpture with translucent plastic that "does cool stuff."

      If liberals pride themselves on being free, open, rational, clear-headed, and efficient; if liberals want to cut down on over-consumption and not use materials wastefully, then why would the be woo'd by a Mac?

    •  while it IS possible to run OSX (0+ / 0-)

      on generic X86 hardware, and in fact, I could even run an OSX guest on the same VMware Server that runs Windows on my Linux box.

      At the moment, the level of pain for doing either is more than I want to contemplate, and my Linux / Windows desktop runs well enough that I'm pretty unmotivated about it.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:04:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just as driving a Volvo doesn't make one liberal (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, kurt, SBE, jfm

    neither does owning a Mac. Considered getting a Mac and tried a friend's laptop for a week...maybe it's just my ingrained comfort with Windows O/S, but the Mac's features seemed counter-intuitive. To each their own I guess.

    Live in the Atlanta area?: Join the Atlanta Kos meetup group now forming by clicking on the homepage link in my profile.

    by VolvoDrivingLiberal on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:21:05 PM PST

    •  Being a software engineer (6+ / 0-)

      maybe it's just my ingrained comfort with Windows O/S, but the Mac's features seemed counter-intuitive

      I write software for both platforms and find both compelling, but for different reasons.

      I have always found that people tend to be most comfortable with the platform that they started with, and tend to describe that platform as 'intuitive' while simultaneously describing other platforms as 'counter-intuitive'.

      To each their own I guess.

      Choice is good.

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:41:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What I like about the PC... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rpbird, SBE

    is that the PC itself (not Windoze) is egalitarian.

    Anyone who is interested in putting together his or her own PC can do so with the help of time, an instruction guide, and a collection of parts picked up at a computer show/computer parts shop.

    I heard a member of the OpenSource community talking about how he was part of an OS coding group because he wanted to be able to provide the people in his mother's community (South America...can't remember where) with computer access that didn't require a ton of money for MS stuff...and hardware purchases.

    "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

    by kredwyn on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:21:09 PM PST

  •  ROFL... (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcjoan, roseba, kredwyn, alizard, kurt, SBE

    ...you really reeled them in this time. This obviously won't reach the level of Pie, but these diaries always have a way of bringing out those who lack a sense of a humor, much less perspective.

    I'll admit, you kind of missed the mark, but how often can one writer be stellar?

    For the record, I'm on a PC because I'm an engineer and have always required a PC to operate my programs. Although, I understand that MAC can now run Windows.

    The odd thing is, I also do alot of graphic work with Illustrator and PS, but I also use them in conjunction with 3DS Max, so, once again, it's PC world for me.

    As someone who does alot of art on the computer, I really don't need a MAC, what I need is one of those tablets that has the monitor/display in it. :)

    Certitude belongs to those who have only lived in a place where everybody believes the same thing.

    by Alumbrados on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:22:01 PM PST

  •  In the Beginning Was the Command Line (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Duncan Idaho, Autarkh, jfm

    is a really great essay written by author Neal Stephenson in 2000 that compares the 3 operating systems (Mac, Windows, and Linux0 in terms of 3 competing car dealerships across the street from each other.

    Hilarious and interesting.

    Thanks for all your work, Devilstower!  We enjoy it immensely.

  •  Apple can kiss my ass (10+ / 0-)

    I have hated Macs since before they released the 'Mac Classic' (seriously, who names a new computer 'classic'?)

    A) they're single source (no clones except for a brief run in the late 90's), so there is no pressure to keep prices down.  They seem to have run with that.

    B) I hate computers that hold my hand.  Say what you will about Windows (and I've got my own special set of profanity for Microsoft products), if I want to get into the guts of it and tinker and play, I can.  Whenever I use a Mac, I feel like I'm being guided along by a way too bubbly tour guide.  "No no no!  You don't want to open that door!  Let's move on to look at the fuzzy kittens!"

    Aside from my IBM Thinkpad (well, and my Sinclair ZX-81, Commodore 128 and TI99/4A) I've never owned a computer that I didn't build myself from component parts (and that includes most of the computers at work as well).  On a Mac, can you just upgrade the sound card?  The video card?  Add extra USB ports?  Can you slap a GPIB card in one so you can get data off of your lock-in amplifier?  If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', then that is a very new development in the world of Apple.

    Just to round things out, I yelled at my mom for voting Reagan back in 1980.  I was 8 years old.

    The only real difference between the Sane and the Insane, in this world, is the Sane have the power to have the Insane locked up. -- HST

    by Elmer McJimsey on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:25:12 PM PST

    •  So true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      As I've said many times before, Macs are for people who don't really like computers but still want to own them.  Sure, they're easy to use, but that's partly because they have more limitations.  As you point out, their hardware can't just be upgraded in a snap and their programs are an impenetrable fog, resisting all atempts at modification.

      And those stories about Macs never crashing are pure fiction.  My ex-girlfriend was a newspaper editor, and she said her Mac at work seemed to crash fairly often when copying and moving files.  Hell, I saw it happen one time.  That has to be the only computer I know of where click-and-drag doesn't actually move anything, it just makes shortcuts to the files.

      OK, I'm done ranting now.

      All your vote are belong to us.

      by Harkov311 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:09:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My friend (0+ / 0-)

        is a college art teacher and she uses her Powerbook for everything to do with her classes. But her husband, a professional composer and graphic designer for a custom down-hole oil tool company, uses PCs for everything and has to instruct her all the time on how to do stuff on her Mac. The household computer arguments always end with some crisis or other taking place on the Mac.

        "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." Maggie Kuhn -6.75/-7.54

        by crose on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:14:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  i just love folk who are MacStuck (9+ / 0-)

    which is what I call folks who can't seem to get over the fact that Macs and PC's are just tools.

    I am a professional composer. I use a PC for most of my work. Back in the day, I was a UNIX hound--loved that operating system. I loved my amiga 64. I was one of the first to adopt the "Next" computer. Great computer, seriously before its time. Macs (and the mac os) are wonderful machines with some rather serious flaws. PC's are clunky machines with some really serious flaws.

    Computers are tools--not religious artifacts. I just love my sledge hammer, but it's a poor choice to drive a finishing nail. I also like my tack hammer, but it's pretty useless for knocking down a wall.

    I can always tell a computer user who's got a political agenda when he/she starts trying to compare why some folks use one computer or the other--and, usually, they end up favoring the Mac and disparaging the PC. Talk about buying into apple's advertising.

    I'll say it again: computers are tools, not religious relics.

  •  All I know is, go to the nearest Apple store (3+ / 0-)

    on a Saturday morning. It will be full of people who look they belong on DailyKos. They're bright, interesting and curious.

    (This observation has little science and not much art in it. But there you go.)

    Thanks for slapping those goddam hogs away from the trough.

    by perro amarillo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:27:12 PM PST

  •  well, even Macs aren't Macs anymore (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roseba, bree, Floja Roja, Hannibal, java4every1

    I've been a Mac user since.. hmmm a long time...
    My first was a Mac Classic.. oh those were the days!

    In those days the difference wasn't just the mouse and icons.. it was about Apple making its OS simple and transparent and really trying to make a computer "for the rest of us".  

    My fondest memories...
    FILE NAMES!!!  remember when you were limited to (was it) 8 letters for your file name in DOS/Windows? You could have looong (though not unlimited) file names on a Mac.  No wasted time/energy trying to devise file names short but expressive...

    And unless you were a geek you couldn't possible figure out the PC file names.  On a Mac, even parts of the system were clearly named, so you could easily delete a preference file if a piece of software was acting up.

    On PCs you had to have an Un-installer to get rid of a program (still do)  On a Mac, you just dragged the application to the trash, and maybe you went into the system and deleted the preference file.

    Starting with OS10 (oh, excuse me OSX) the Mac system is almost as opaque as Windows.  My 20 years experience with Macs hardly helps me find and fix stuff when things go wrong.  There's all this obscure Unix crap (which I'm sure is beautiful to Unix jockeys)

    Mac is still more elegant and beautiful than any PC based machine (or software) will ever be (think rounded rather than sharp)

    But it's pretty stupid to be carrying on these wars still..

    It's just a fucking tool.

    Now, Apple STOCK on the other hand.. I made some tidy sums playing the ups and downs over the years.  Whereas my MSFT stock has consistently stunk up the joint for years.

    •  Yep I do remember that days (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jmcgrew

      That is why we use things called directories and sub-directories.

      It had the bonus effect of allowing your files to be well organized.

      Nothing is worse than saving a file and having it go into the ether "somewhere on my computer".  It's a good thing to know where your files actually reside.

      As far as cases, PC's come in every configuration known to man. My husband's was clear with neon colors and black light on the inside.  (cheesy at best, but that's his taste.)

  •  The reasons this liberal uses a PC. (11+ / 0-)

    I own a Dell desktop and a Sony Vaio laptop.  Here's why I don't have an Apple:

    1. All the awesome stuff they talk about Macs being able to do on the commercials, like desktop publishing, linking to your iPod, creating photo albums, composing music?  I don't do those things.
    1. I do play quite a few video games on my computers.

    My PCs didn't come with a free grey flannel suit, and Apples don't come with Birkenstocks and patchouli oil.

  •  Using a MAC rots your mind -- Proven (sort of) (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Hannibal, kurt, Autarkh, SBE

    There was a study many years ago from the University
    of Delaware. English Composition class, students had
    the choice of which computer lab to use, PC's or Mac's.

    The instructors noticed a difference, so they conducted
    a study and found that the students using Mac's had
    generally inferior performance in criteria such as
    choice of topics, organization, and even spelling!

    This comment is so far down on the list that no-one will probably see it, but if there is interest, I can try to dig out the study or the reference.

    (PS. I am writing this on a Mac, and I don't know if
    it the machine or time, but my mind seems to be rotting.)

  •  comp.sys.mac.advocacy (0+ / 0-)

    sigh...

  •  You PC users sure are over-sensitive. nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Duncan Idaho

    .

  •  Well, this has been one hell of an argument (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, gish, Autarkh, crose

    But the bottom line is RUBBISH!  One can only hope that no one buys anything to prop up their identity.  Buying a computer is a discretionary expense.  It only makes sense to buy enough to meet your needs, whatever they may be.  I would rather have money in my discretionary budget to give to the ACLU or Amnesty International than buy a computer that is going to make me look liberal and sexy.

    dress for dinner and be discreet.

    by moodyinsavannah on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:35:18 PM PST

    •  Your comment should be this diary (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, moodyinsavannah, SBE

      and the diary should be a low-rated comment.

      We are all better off putting our money into our cause, than accessorizing our philosophy with the "right" hardware, car, whatever.

      I'm not pro or con Mac or PC. What I am is anti-needlessly divisive unfunny diaries on the front page.

      •  the real division here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        virgomusic

        is between people with a sense of humor and people like you, and that's a hell of a lot more fundamental than trivia like which OS you use.

        My position (I've used computers ranging from vacuum tube - drum memory machines to my current Linux Athlon 3500+ machine) is that you use the best OS for the job you're doing, and the best OS might be anything from no OS on an embedded CPU to a mainframe OS.

        I've been watching this flamewar since the BBS days... and it's just as funny today as it was when I was running DOS on a 286 machine or the original MacOS on a MacPlus.

        "Best" OS is generally dictated by available software... if what you need doesn't run on the box/OS you chose, you picked the wrong one.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:10:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Oh please no more of this silliness (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal, SBE
    The more likely explanation is that Conservatives are more likely to work for major corporations. And major corporations run PCs and often expect their employees to be able to access work and work files from home.

    "Artsy types" prefer Macs and are more likely to be liberal.

    The theory behind this FP story is as smug as the Mac guy in those Mac commercials. I prefer the John Hodgman character myself.

    That said, after buying my daughter an iBook, this PC mega-geek has vowed to buy myself one soon.

    Which reminds me ... I went to a Bar Mitzvah in Philadelphia this past Saturday. One of the most charming tableaux of the evening was seeing a table of octogenarians all hunched around an iBook looking at a slide show of the great-grandchildren of the iBook's owner.

    Hmmmm ... It was a very liberal synagogue ...

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:37:46 PM PST

  •  We're all individuals... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exiled texan, SBE

    just like everybody else...

    If you really wanna be a liberal, (or a Libertarian, go figure)... you run Linux.

    TFYQA - think For Yourself, Question Authority

    by Niniane on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:39:04 PM PST

  •  oh geez, Devilstower, you're smarter than this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peelinglayers, SBE

    and better than that, I thought.

    Do you have to stoop to cheap rhetorical trix and Platform Bigotry to bolster your sense of superiority?

    Or is your point that liberals are Clueless Elitists who don't realize that most poor people can't afford expensive hardware, expensive software, and the time to futz around with rarified systems and incompatible file formats? 'Cuz that's hardly the image you want to project, I'd think - unless you're secretly a winger double agent!

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:39:39 PM PST

  •  All great art is subversive... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virgomusic

    especially music!

    "I'll give up my Mac when you pry my cold dead fingers off of the mouse...

  •  Devilstower, don't blame yourself (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Duncan Idaho, alizard, virgomusic

    It started as a funny, silly, diary. Some people - who are perfectly good people otherwise - just can't lighten up.

  •  As a guy who wrote games for the Mac in '84 (7+ / 0-)

    and worked at Microsoft Research's Virtual Worlds Group in 96.

    I wrote my games - ChipWits and Cinemaware's King of Chicago - for every little computer back then: Apple II, C64, Amiga, TRS-90 Model III, Atari 800.

    I am not fond of Apple's hardware monopoly, but it makes it a LOT easier for them to move forward with their OS.

    So stand aside in the face of my awesome expertise, posers. I hereby make this deeply informed judgment:

    The Commodore Amiga was the only profoundly liberal computer.

    Case closed.

    I will quite likely get a Mac laptop as my next main machine and multi-boot different OS's.

    ChipWits forever!

    Walden 3.0: My Indie Game Dev Blog

    •  Same here! (0+ / 0-)

      I'm a Network eng. and I'm thinking of doing the same for my next purchase. Apple made a good move going to Intel and Unix based systems. Microsoft just spends it's time maintaining it's almost monopoly through brute force and the rest of it's time trying to reverse engineer Apple's systems. It seems to work for them doesn't it? Vista is just a cheap knock off of the Mac OS X but it will wildly successful if for no other reason then it will live on 90% of the market without even trying. Isn't Monopoly fun? Profitable as well!

      "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

      by Blutodog on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:14:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What Was the Only Fixed Register in Amiga OS? (0+ / 0-)

      It's been a while, but if I recall, wasn't it A4?

      If Commodore had continued the development of the Amiga 3000 just one more generation and if Motorola had taken the 680xx series up to a 68080, and if SunRize had extended Studio 16 to 24 bits, I'd probably still be using an Amiga today.

      It was so close. Will there ever be another computing platform as elegant as the Amiga?

      best,

      john

      jabney co-writes - at www.thecodes.net

      by jabney on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:35:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nice flame war, bub (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh, Chaoticfluffy, SBE

    Keep in mind that Apple may indeed design things very well, but underneath it all, it's a corporation whose sole purpose is to make money for its shareholders.

    Nothing wrong with that, of course, but they're not making cool computers in order to help distinguish liberal Mac owners from conservative PC owners, they're making cool computers in order to earn money. That's all.

    If you really want to go the non-conformist route, use Linux (it runs on PCs and Macs). If you're not familiar with its history, the idea was that software should be free -- not free in price, necessarily, but that the source code to programs should be made freely available to anyone to view and modify. This idea of "freedom" is the basis of the GNU General Public License that most Linux programs use.

    The flip side of this is that a lot of Linux development takes place by volunteers collaborating over the Internet (sounds kind of like blogging, doesn't it?).

    In practice, most Linux software is also free (as in no-cost), which means you can get a high-quality OS and programs to run on it for the price of an Internet connection and some blank CDs.

    Still crazy, after all these years.

    by eco2geek on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:42:28 PM PST

  •  1984! (0+ / 0-)

    I have used a Mac since 1984.
    This is one of many, many reasons to own one.
    http://www.uriahcarpenter.info/...

    Keep your eyes on the prize.

    by Better Days on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:44:47 PM PST

  •  Mac Fundamentalism (7+ / 0-)

    The reason I don’t own a Mac has nothing to do with my politics, and everything to do with how I view computers. For me, computers are not lifestyle accessories, but tools. I could care less about the aesthetics, hipness, or the mutually reinforcing in-group mentality and sense of "belonging" that Mac users seem to experience. I’m after utility; buying proprietary hardware at a premium price, and then locking myself into a low market share OS diminishes the utility of my tool. I can build a PC (tower or laptop) from scratch, selecting each component that will best suit my needs. I can install the OS I want to use – be it Windows, Linux or Unix. I can select from a much wider array of software solutions. And it will cost substantially less than Apple’s designer computers. Maybe the interface isn’t as shiny, or the package quite as sleek, but the only real interface is the command line. I’ll take bash over any desktop environment any day of the week. =)

    I am baffled by the self-righteous religiosity of Macdom. As with any other religion, my stance is that you have a right to believe whatever you want until you start trying to push it on other people. You may regard us PC users as automatons – but doesn’t the ubiquity of this view speak volumes about your own conformity?

    "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

    by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:44:47 PM PST

    •  Think different (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, Autarkh, SBE

      That says it all. "Think different." An advertising slogan imploring people to ... "think different."

      NOT as individuals, mind you. But as a smaller group of lemmings.

    •  hardware monopolists (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh, pale cold, SBE

      So far, at least, I use a PC because:

      a) Macheads piss me off, e.g. this post (they're almost as bad as Harry Potter fanatics).

      b) I put together my own machine 6 months ago, and I don't know that much about computers, for $300.  Suck it, Apple!

      b) I refuse to buy a computer from a company that would then force me to go to them for all upgrades/replacements/peripherals.  Why doesn't it ever occur to Macheads that Microsoft ain't the only monopoly in the computer business?

      So here is us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me, and I won't push you. -- Mal, "Serenity"

      by exiled texan on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:40:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Early adapters are fearless! (0+ / 0-)

    I use all three OS's to connect to DKos: Windows, RedHat Linux and Mac OS X.  I hate, hate, HATE Windows and use it only when I have to.  
    We are not afraid to try new things.  We look ahead, not behind.  We make our decisions, whereas PC users have their decisions made for them.  

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:45:05 PM PST

  •  PC in Republican = Pious cant (0+ / 0-)

    The title says it all

  •  MAC users 25%, Bush supporters 30% (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fugue, SBE

    Given Bush's low  poll numbers & how we all believe his remaining supporters are so uncool, why shouldn't we think the same about the MAC users here?

    "Only poets know how many poems end up as pies."

    by DJ Rix on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:49:09 PM PST

  •  word of advice, apple is passe (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, Autarkh, crose, jfm

    as if it were actually hip.

    that's like saying shopping at abercrombie is hip

    or driving a (new) VW beetle.

    ahahaha

  •  Except for computer gamers (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Trapper John, gish, Autarkh, SBE

    As a gamer, I know quite a few others, and lemme tell you, I don;t know a single one that doesn't own a PC.  Mostly because all the complexity that normally scares people away from PCs are what gamers love.  Macs for the most part can't be upgraded once purchased, nor can their hardware and software be fiddled with nearly as easily.  Well, that, and the fact that the most popular games often take a very long time to come out for Macs.  Least, that's why I have a PC.  I like being able to modify and hack my own machine on a whim.

    Macs, I'll be the first to admit, are much more user-friendly.  But if you've taken the time out of your life to learn how Linux works just so you can play a game more smoothly than on Windows, user-friendliness is about the last thing you care about.

    All your vote are belong to us.

    by Harkov311 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:54:54 PM PST

  •  Funny you should mention this. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, plumberwill, crose

    My husband and I are all computered up at the moment, and won't be in the market for anything else for a few years yet. All our home computers at the moment are running MS WinXP (except for the old iMac that I haven't even taken out of the box since we moved). But this morning, we decided that there's no way in hell we're letting Vista into our house.

    Here's why -- Vista's legal fine print raises red flags:

    Vista's legal fine print includes extensive provisions granting Microsoft the right to regularly check the legitimacy of the software and holds the prospect of deleting certain programs without the user's knowledge.

    That's not just an alarmist quote, either. Read the whole article.

    I buy a computer, it's my computer. Not Microsoft's.

    If MS is losing market share with liberals now... just wait. They ain't seen nuthin' yet.

    Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

    by Canadian Reader on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 12:58:17 PM PST

  •  Late to the party... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    judy99, kurt, Chaoticfluffy, SBE

    ...or is it a pie fight?

    DT, why did you have to start this BS, especially as an FP diary.

    This kind of stereotyping is so beneath all of us.  People buy the computer they want, liberal or conservative, period.

    I personally know some rabid rightwingers who are Macheads.  And, myself, I'm a Progressive PC geek.

    Your theory is way too full of holes, please pull this.

    When I must guard my thoughts, feelings and words, lest I be unpatriotic...then my country is lost

    by crimsonscare on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:05:05 PM PST

  •  Apple was marketed to Liberals (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, Autarkh

    Those weren't giant black and white murals of Grover Norquist, Nixon, and Jesus that showed up all over city streets over the last 10 years.

    All the theories above are sound if not, and I say this as a Liberal, a little smug.

    But the answer is Apple was marketed to liberals.

  •  Don't like where this is going... (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roseba, SlowNomad, cwech, kurt, Autarkh, SBE
    • Mac users are well known for having both a superiority complex and a persecution complex
    • Mac users are always out of touch with what the rest of the world is doing
    • They're nonconformists in the sense that they choose to non-conform in the most hip, stylish way possible
    • They're superficial, caring more about the color of their earbuds than the quality sound they produce
    • Mac users are all a bunch of beret wearing hippies
  •  Nonsense (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    judy99, Autarkh

    No offense but the whole Mac vs. PC thing is sooooo 90's. Even Mac knows it's over that's why the name change. Now that doesn't mean I disagree that the Mac OS isn't far superior it is. But, so what? I use both systems and for different reasons but, I don't see how that makes me anything political 1 way or another.

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

    by Blutodog on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:08:49 PM PST

  •  I have a dumb question.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plumberwill

    Given that OS X is now supposed to work in an Intel environment, does that mean that one could install it successfully on, say, a Dell Demension 610?  Or would one have to use only a late-model Apple PowerBook and, in turn, install Windows or Linux for a dual boot capability?

    This is both a work- and home-related question.  Work is becoming very heterogeneous, and that means I have to get better in multiple environments, but of course without, you know, actually spending money on it from the budget at work.  A simple route would be to have multiple devices dedicated to specific OS's to have some flexibility, but a dual- or tri-boot (trial-boot? ;-)) capability laptop looks to be my future, so an answer on this question would help.  (And yes, I know of VMware and Xen - they won't cut it, trust me (though some of my customers want me to be their resident expert at those apps too, thankyouverymuch.))

    Home-wise, I just find that OS X seems to have more graphics-n-media (especially video) savvy stuff than in either the Windows XP or SuSE (my work-oriented Linux) environments, but that Windows or SuSE, depending upon a few key issues, would be a good alternate OS to have on hand as well.)

    My two bits...and thanks in advance for your answers.

    God gave us his own child as a sacrifice. Bush wants to take yours...

    by Palamedes on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:09:22 PM PST

    •  It's possible ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SBE

      But not encouraged. And not legal. And not easy for the average Joe.

    •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt

      Yes.  It's an explicit violation of the EULA for OS/X, but it can be done.  Don't expect any official support.  

      You can read more here, if you're still interested.

      Good luck!

      A Republican is a person who can borrow $20, pay back $10, and claim the two of you are even because you both lost $10.

      by plumberwill on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:28:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  OS X on other systems (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      plumberwill

      You can't easily or directly run OS X on non Apple computers.  As I understand it there are hacked versions out there that can be installed and run on certain systems.  I think whether it'll work or not depends on what chipset/motherboard/processors you have.  But, of course it's not legal to do so.

      You can boot Windows or Linux on Intel Macs, using Apple's Bootcamp.  Or you can use a product called Parallels to simultaneously run Windows, Linux and OS X.

  •  Fuck Apple. (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Trapper John, roseba, jules too, chebene
    Hidden by:
    Ari Mistral

    And especially fuck all of the Mac cultists out there. My PC works just fine, and I like it.

    What I don't like is having to run 5 kinds of security software, because otherwise, my system would be overrun by viruses. Funny how Apple users don't have that problem. Maybe that's because a large percentage of the assholes writing the viruses have Macs.

    I will never buy a Mac.

    Don't fuck with my ch'i.

    by Han Solo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:10:30 PM PST

  •  Nothing wrong with a Mac. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SBE

    I still drool at the newest Macintosh computers. However, I remain on the Dark Side because:

    1. That's what they use at work. Grrrr.
    1. Gaming, man. Gaming.
    1. There is no 3.

    One of these days, I'll be back. I was there for twelve years, and there is still some good in me.

    Keep a spot open for us.

    Ari

    "The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go." - Dr. Seuss

    by Ari Mistral on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:14:11 PM PST

  •  Buying Apple Makes You a "Liberated" User (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    agoldnyc, virgomusic

    I don't know if buying a Mac makes a person a liberal or not. I'm in the IT world working for a university and see a larger percentage of Macs than the average corporate IT person would. But there are a couple of points to be made that everyone should know.

    1. Cost of ownership is considerably less with a Mac. You buy a Mac, use it for an average of six years versus the average PC lifespan of three and you're way ahead on money. Mac peripherals such as monitors, scanners and printers also tend to have extended lifespans due to a more "conservative" approach in ownership. People tend to buy new peripherals with new computers, not because the old peripherals have reach end-of-life.
    1. Mac users are happier. I can't really say why. I use Microsoft Office on my Mac, the Adobe/Macromedia Suites are basically similar and I prefer Firefox no matter which platform I'm using, so it can't be the applications. But give me a ten hour day on a Mac versus a ten hour day on a PC and ask my wife which guy she'd rather live with that evening and it's the Mac version of me.
    1. Macs are more powerful. Spend enough time with a Mac to get comfortable under the hood and you discover you're sitting on the computer version of an M1 Abrahms. When you get to the point of opening terminal windows and talking directly to the core of your Mac via command line, every UNIX geek begins to wax poetic. There simply is nothing that can't be done from the desktop of a Mac.
    1. Remember the rules of OS. Always use the proper OS for the job:

          Linux for servers
          OS/X (Mac) for Desktops & Graphics
          Palm for Mobility
          Windoze for Solitaire

    •  I am not going to comment at length... (0+ / 0-)

      ...but Windows is vastly superior at 3d games, not just Solitaire. Furthermore, with the adoption of x86, Macs are really the same as PCs except for the OS and price. The claim of Macs being more powerful is baseless repetition of a talking point.

      "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

      by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:59:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're Exactly Right (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jbirdski

        You are very correct. With the adoption of the Intel Duo-Core (soon to be Quad-Core) processors, the only real difference between Mac's and PC's will be the native architecture and the OS. I'm still using both systems, and even have a couple of Sun systems running in my home office as I migrate some old UNIX apps over to Linux, but the longevity issue is directly related to the lack of openness everyone else is commenting on. Controlling the hardware allows Apple to build in some quality control that has to be compromised in a fiercely competitive PC market.

        If I only played games, or even just played them more than a couple times a year, I'd definitely build up a robust Windows box for gaming.

        In the end I don't think it's about the Mac being more powerful, just more useful to the average user for a longer period of time. Beyond specialty computing needs, the Mac is just a bit more friendly and has less of learning curve for the 90% of the world that is non-computer embedded. To them the computer is just a tool for one job or another, not something to be lived in front of. To those of us who use the computer for the vast majority of our lives, they're the "left-handers" of our time.

        I'll always keep a variety of systems around so I can provide support for the rest of the users. But I do like the way my copy of WinXP runs on Boot Camp on my MacBook and will probably try Vista somewhere down the road. But we're a long, long way from being able to support Vista across our campus.

  •  DOS is the one true operating system! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh, crose, SBE

    Renounce your false gods! Repent your sins!

    Nonbelievers shall suffer eternal system failure!!!

    Don't fuck with my ch'i.

    by Han Solo on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:25:49 PM PST

  •  the academic view? Umberto Eco (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, linnen, Mehitabel9, Violetta, virgomusic, kurt

    "The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counterreformist and has been influenced by the "ratio studiorum" of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach - if not the Kingdom of Heaven - the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation. DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revelers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment. You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counterreformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions... And machine code, which lies beneath both systems? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is Talmudic and cabalistic. "
           - Umberto Eco.

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:31:03 PM PST

  •  My wife is blasting away on here ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IAblue, chicago minx

    ... so I thought I'd throw in my two cents, too.

    My household currently has an iMac, two MacBooks, a MacBook Pro and a Mac mini -- all effortlessly networked via wireless.

    I also have a PC laptop (a new Dell Inspiron, in fact). Nice machine and Windows Media Center is kind of cool. Plus, I like to be knowledgeable about the PC side.  

    But every couple of days, I have to remind myself to run a  variety of protection programs (Spybot, AdAware, Norton) to make sure bad shit hasn't gotten on this machine. The programs always find something.

    Macs are elegant and intuitive and all that and Windows Vista promises to approach that level. But working on both sides of the divide I've learned that if I have a deadline project or something where there's no margin for error, I'm not going to risk it on the PC.

    I'll always go with the Mac.

  •  I started on Apple. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linnen, Autarkh, SBE

    went to a PC in 1991.

    For the record if you want to really screw with the big monopolies, legally?

    Buy all the parts for a PC wholesale or second hand, Build it yourself and install linux.

    As for my preferences? I do like to tinker and the PC makes it a lot easier.

    "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there."-Pierre Elliot Trudeau

    by pale cold on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:33:17 PM PST

  •  Not again... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virgomusic, Autarkh

    I hate this debate, and I've been using macintoshes since I was five (I am in my mid-twenties).

    Just because using a PC feels like slicing a loaf of bread with a nail file, that doesn't make the people who use Windows stupid or retrograde (however, if they upgrade to Vista, they may indeed be gullible...). Indeed, there are a lot of right-wing mac users, too. If you think about it, the line may fall closer on the question of design. Now me, I'm a communist, in favor of a GDR-style Engineer's Society. Design is progress. Whereas the right-wing mac users are likely to be people who spend a lot of money (because Macintoshes USED TO BE more expensive until about 2004 or so — try to spec a comparable notebook cheaper than the macbook today...) not only for a properly-made computer, but also on other yuppied-out lifestyle things. You know, Bose.

    Now Unix on the other hand... those guys are a bunch of ideologues. (But a lot of the software is great!)

    BTW: I heard a joke from a friend who works at Apple. In November of '04, on the Radar (Apple's internal bug-tracking system), someone posted a bug on Safari (Apple's browser), to the effect of: All of these states on the map at CNN.com are appearing red when they should be appearing blue!

  •  If MACs were really (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jabney, el zilcho, Autarkh, SBE, Predictor

    reflective of liberal values, they'd make some effort to make them more affordable to the masses.  

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire

    by poemless on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:36:32 PM PST

  •  I am a democrat andI prefer PC's (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cwech, el zilcho, Autarkh, SBE

    Been using them ever since I could and I like the format better, plus Microsoft puts food on the table =) (mom works for them)

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:39:27 PM PST

  •  This seems reminiscent (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Autarkh, pale cold, SBE

    of the South Park episode about hybrids, wherein the world was threatened by a cloud of sanctimony generated by self-satisfied hybrid owners smelling their own farts.

    Look, I'm pretty staunchly liberal, and I have an artistic sensibility about most things.  I have tried many times to like Macs, but I just don't.  I find the interface isn't intuitive to me, and what it appears to have in aesthetics is counterbalanced by its stifling of the user's ability to modify the machine to his liking.

    I guess I see Macs as pretty but shallow.  A well-made PC can let you do so much more.

  •  I usually avoid these sorts of debates... (0+ / 0-)

    but isn't ANYONE going to mention video editing?

    I use a Mac because Final Cut Pro worked flawlessly in version 1.0.  Adobe Premiere (the only other option in the same price range) didn't really work properly until version 6.

    I happen to think desktop video is a revolutionary development.  The MAIN reason TV is like it is, is because it was SO expensive to make.  When I first got FCP to run, my best friend had a Windows NT box running Avid that cost him $130,000.

    Now I know that Adobe now has the bugs worked out of Premier Pro so one can do roughly the same things on a windows box that I have done on FCP, but I had about a four year head start.

    As for OSX, when it came out, I hated it and my personal conversion process was VERY painful.  But now I love it and cannot imagine why anyone would build an OS any other way.  I mean, Unix, on a desktop, with an Apple GUI?  What's not to love?

    As for price--if you option out a computer to do video editing, the cost differences between brands are insignificant.  Those $400 wintel boxes can't do very much.

    But whether a computer signifies a political stance--that I doubt.  I once thought that smoking pot or being gay was a sign of a progressive.  Turns out, lifestyle issues are almost totally unrelated to political persuasion.

    Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool

    by techno on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:47:20 PM PST

  •  me? I have an Alienware PC (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    agoldnyc, SBE

    I know what I like, and I does it. ;-0

    Republicans: By their rotted fruit you shall know them.

    by thereisnospoon on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:50:50 PM PST

  •  for OSX users (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, Autarkh

    If you've got a need for Windows software, there's an alternative to buying Parallels.

    There's a VMware Server for OSX beta available as a free download... install it, then install Windows as a guest on VMware Server.

    With an emulator, you can cut and paste data between open Windows apps and Linux apps instead of finding out that the next app you need is always on the other OS, as happens on dual boot.

    Some assembly required, you must be familiar with the *nix command line to install it successfully.

    I run this setup on Linux, using VMware Server to run Windows. I'm very happy with it. There's something of a performance hit just as their is with any emulator, but this should be no big deal with a modern machine.

    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 01:53:36 PM PST

  •  The biggest reason I use PC's are (6+ / 0-)

    because I can build my own. The minute Apple opens up its architecture to hardware makers and I can throw anything I want in it, Ill consider Mac.

  •  It's the same reason (0+ / 0-)

    We're liberals for the same reason we're Mac users.

    Because we're smart!

  •  Boerewors (0+ / 0-)

    ummmmmmm,
    I gittin some in the summer I hope!!!!!

  •  Better? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exiled texan

    Macs are better.

  •  I play computer games (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh, SBE

    so I own windows, but as soon as I can play games on windows OS (or Linux OS, or even MAC OS), I'll switch back.

    Also, I owned two of the worst MACs ever built, Mac IIsi and a Power Computing clone.

    Electronic voting is no vote at all. (-3.38, -6.56)

    by agoldnyc on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:06:19 PM PST

  •  oh Jesus, not again (6+ / 0-)

    I am so gawddamned sick of Mac users looking down their nose at pc users and saying, "Did you know that Mac users are all [personality quality that I value], but pc users are just a bunch of [type of people I don't like]?  Yeah, it's because of [analogy that fits context in only most marginal sense]!"

    You know it's bad when I say Mac users are insufferable, and I own a hybrid!

    So here is us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me, and I won't push you. -- Mal, "Serenity"

    by exiled texan on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:07:04 PM PST

    •  seems opposite so far (0+ / 0-)

      From my perspective, the comments so far have a much more anti-Mac than anti-PC tone.  Maybe that'll change, but I find it quite hostile (and, personally, the arguments unpersuasive or misinformed).  

      I don't care what someone else uses for their computer, and I don't see why one side needs to run down the other.  Like PCs?  Great!  Use a Mac?  Good!

      Whatever works for you...

  •  recipe for a flamewar? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mehitabel9, Chaoticfluffy, crose

    Markos, isn't this thread a recipe for a slashdot like flamewar?

    I have a nice recipe for dairy-free pumpkin bread somewhere. It's sort of like this:

    brown sugar
    white sugar
    flour
    pumpkin from a can
    some oil or baking soda or something

    mix and bake for an hour

    add dates or pears to taste. make sure the fruit doesn't stick out or it goes dry and raisiny in the oven.

    Electronic voting is no vote at all. (-3.38, -6.56)

    by agoldnyc on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:09:23 PM PST

  •  my theory (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SensibleDemocrat, Autarkh, SBE

    Ice cream causes drownings.  After all, as ice cream sales go up so do drownings.  Your so-called "study" of blog hit trends is poor science.  I would also like to point out that a majority of people on Kos are still using PCs, so under your theory 75-85% of DKos visitors are conservative?  You can go ahead and like your mac, I dont, I think they're hard to use and illogical.  I think its got a lot more to do with an individual's conceptualization of operating systems than anything else, and looking at hits to two blogs is hardly a representative sample for the population of politically engaged computer users.

    "You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."-Clarence Darrow

    by cwech on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:13:15 PM PST

  •  I bet (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vivacia

    Barack Obama uses a Mac and Hillary uses a PC.

    Let the pie fight begin.

    /snark

    Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world -- h/t deepfish

    by Mehitabel9 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:22:40 PM PST

  •  Mac's are kewl. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vivacia

    (moral compass:-7.63,-6.21) Honk if you vote Democratic !!!

    by ezdidit on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:30:01 PM PST

  •  Nothing Makes me happier than Mac Whoring (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virgomusic, TalkieToaster

    Here's me:
    17" iMac G4
    Wearing an Apple shirt right now, one of several
    Been to the grand opening of 6 Apple stores (all in Texas)
    Converted several of my friends to Mac (who have spawned their own converters
    Skip classes to watch Apple keynotes live
    CUrrently applying for a job in a Mac lab on campus
    helped start a Apple Users Group on campus.

    I saw a guy at Democracy Fest in 2005 handing out literature about Apple's (then) non-existant recycling program for iPod and their poor environmental programs. Now, I consider environment my #1 policy, but I told him to shove it, and I'd happily do it again. My loyalty to Apple existed long before I was a democrat and is much greater than anything else except maybe my home and some certain people. It's first for me.

    Also, Nintendo > M$ and Sony. I <3 my Wii. <br>DC is also > Marvel, 52 is a great read.

    THose are my biases outside of my politics which I think you all can tell since I am posting here.

    BTW, thinksecret.com is reporting there might be a product revision tomorrw. YAY!

    And yes I am a normal, in shape, attractive American in his early 20s with a girlfriend, I swear, I really am.

  •  "The Shallow Value vs Deep Value Theory" (0+ / 0-)

    I am firmly in this category.  Overall value for money all things considered is just more.

    And I can hardly wait to buy my iPhone. :)

  •  To all those who keep griping... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbirdski, virgomusic, Bronx59

    ...about whether this diary has any legitimate reason to have been written, I should point out the original numbers cited by the author:

    Worldwide, Macs have roughly a 2.5% total market share.

    In the U.S., Macs have roughly a 5-6% market share.

    On DailyKos, Macs have roughly a 15-25% market share.

    Now, this doesn't prove anything about whether Mac OS-based machines are better than Windows-based machines, but it does have some sort of meaning worthy of exploring. If this site was devoted to all   things technical/computer related, it might have less significance. If the site was devoted to all things Mac-related, the only surprise would be that the percentage of Mac users was so low instead of so high.

    However, this site is neither of the above--it is primarily devoted to politics, and particularly to progressive/left-leaning politics, so yes, the 15-25% Mac base is significant and worth discussion--it's hardly an anomoly.

    •  Haven't we seen (0+ / 0-)

      lately that these low numbers have a certain meaning? If Mac users on DK are in the 15-25% range, then aren't PC users the other 75-85%? In politics, that's a huge advantage, no? Kind of reminds me of the Bushies that claim 29% is a good number.

      "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." Maggie Kuhn -6.75/-7.54

      by crose on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:53:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  To all those who defend this stupid post (0+ / 0-)

      Oh wow, 10% market share on DailyKos over the US.

      Instead of using this spurious link to make idiotic generalizations about people based on their hardware brands, you could have actually thought about the most obvious economics reasons why Macs might be more popular here, if that is indeed the case. Disposable income, age, and any number of other variables.

      Instead, we get this bullshit Mac-cult spew about creativity and conformity. Hey, I write music for a living. What do YOU do? What in your choice of OSX makes your brain more creative than mine? NOTHING. The original post was bullshit and your lame defense was even more bullshit.

  •  Facts have a well known Mac bias (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbirdski, TalkieToaster, bethyb
    PC users tend to be more conformist and less computer literate, but it doesn't by any means follow that because someone uses a PC, or a Mac, they are either a conformist conservative or a liberal.  

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 02:59:14 PM PST

  •  Three things worth noting: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbirdski
    1. Steve Jobs was asked by John Kerry to be  one of his economic advisors during the '04 campaign.
    1. Al Gore is on Apple's Board of Dirctors.
    1. The slideshow in An Inconvenient Truth was done entirely in Keynote, Apple's answer to PowerPoint.

    Discuss.

  •  I miss DOS *sniff* (n/t) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh
  •  Tried a Mac (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    judy99, Autarkh, Chaoticfluffy

    for a couple of weeks. Just didn't like it. I'll stick with my Dell PC which has given me no problems in the year and a half we've owned it. There's nothing WRONG with a Mac, but I don't do art or photo world, so the features that most appeal to users don't really apply to me.

    Even if I HAD liked the Mac, I loathe their damned ads so much that I wouldn't buy one for that reason alone.  The only ads I dislike more are the coal company ads in which a 10 year old tells us how much more she knows about the environment and energy than her parents.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 03:45:30 PM PST

  •  Mac vs PC (0+ / 0-)

    When I saw this post on FP, I was mildly interested:  I am a Mac acolyte and Jobs Is god!

    and then I noticed it already had 450+ replies to it!  Far more than any other posting.  

    Very in-ter-es-ting.

    I don't want to know how my computers work - I just want them to.  So I've always luved my Mac's.  I did get a PC because I had an essential program that would only run on PC.  PC did fine for 4 years and then died! - unfixable!

    I'm getting myself a Mac Book Pro and a 30" Apple Cinema Display (I already have a 5th gen. iPod).  Eat your heart out!

    I also got a Bush Countdown Clock!  Our national nightmare will be over (not soon enough)! http://www.nationalnightmare.com/

    •  Theres no such thing as "unfixable" on a PC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry, Autarkh

      No matter which component dies your computer as a whole is always fixable. You just have to replace whatever it is thats broken. Harddrive crash? Get a new harddrive. Motherboard burns out? Buy a new one.

      Thats the beauty of PC you can crack it open and replace stuff that breaks. The only time I've ever come close to having a PC break down to the point where I couldn't fix it was when they changed the standards such Power Supplies or Memory when the old stuff finally dies you cant find it anymore. Big whoop.

      Even then its just a matter of changing what you have to change to adapt.

      Also the line that Macs are immune to viruses, etc is bull. The reason most viruses infect windows machines is because the success of a virus is measured by how many machines it infects. If Mac owned 90% of the market 90% of the viruses would be written for it too.

      He who lives in the present, has no knowledge of the past nor vision for the future.

      by DeanDemocrat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 05:04:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your statement sums Macdom up: (0+ / 0-)

      I don't want to know how my computers work - I just want them to.

      "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

      by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 08:50:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  That is the lamest analogy/flame-bait post... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Autarkh, crose

    The whole idea that people pick their platform based on their political stripes is remarkably stupid and uninformed. The whole "conservatives buy rock-bottom" argument is stupid. Getting hardware and software to communicate correctly is pretty complicated, so these things called "standards" have evolved over the years Right? Well, Apple flaunts them and bastardizes them constantly and thereby protects their intellectual property as much or more than M$ (who twists standards and then patents them as their own). The only way they've been able to get people to buy their non-standards compliant crap is by convincing their customers that they are elite and cutting edge by thinking "different." It's a little different nowadays, though, because hardware-wise the systems..... are...... identical!!! Except that Macs are much much more expensive (often - but not always -  made with higher quality). Unless you're some kind of cultist, the computer you buy is still just that: a computer. A tool. Not a fucking political statement.

    •  Amen (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gin, Autarkh

      In my experience apple users tend to be new to computers. They've never dealt with the command prompt OS such as DOS and the MAC OS is designed with the newbie in mind. If you've never used a computer everything is where you would expect it to be on a MAC.

      If you're a LONGTIME computer user however everything feels ass backwards and dumbed down on a mac.

      And this is coming from a guy who hates Microsoft with every fiber on my being.

      He who lives in the present, has no knowledge of the past nor vision for the future.

      by DeanDemocrat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:55:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  bf works for Apple.... it's an addiction (0+ / 0-)

    We always have the newest and latest.  We are of the monetarily challenged persuasion (I'm a PhD student) but we love our mounds of Apple gear.

    I switched from a PC a couple of years ago and never looked back (I'm 27).  I LOVE the operating system and my MacBook is amazing.

  •  I use a PC because... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    el zilcho, Autarkh

    I don't like the idea of buying a whole new computer everytime a new game, or piece of software comes out that requires a faster video card, or a newer more advanced soundcard/interface. Or if I run out of harddrive space due to having so many mp3s I don't like the idea of not being allowed to crack that bad boy open and upgrade.

    Because of the limitations of Apple such as the fact that they have virtually no 3rd party hardware. Macs are like Nintendos. You get to play it for 5 years and then you have to buy the new one.

    He who lives in the present, has no knowledge of the past nor vision for the future.

    by DeanDemocrat on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:18:49 PM PST

  •  None Of The Above (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbirdski

    I develop software professionally, and the reason I use Macs is that OS X is what I've been waiting for for many years - a UNIX-alike with a human face, and which runs niche user software, primarily music software like Finale and Sibelius that lets me do my other primary professional work - I'm also a musician. Linux is great as far as it goes, it comes fairly close, but no luck with serious niche stuff.

    Macs are a joy to use, especially in a network setting working with Linux servers, where OS X and Linux work really well (pretty much transparently) together. I'm struck by how easy it is to install/remove programs from my Macs - no ini files, no bloody registry or Windows Installer - just put it in Applications and you're done! I love it.

    So, I switched because it works really well, and I'm willing to shell out a little more to get the right tool for the job. Macs also seem to age more gracefully - I can get a lot done on my almost 4-year-old 800mhz Powerbook and it doesn't feel THAT slow, whereas when I play around with similar vintage PCs they seem like they're ready for the Elephant Boneyard.

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" - Neils Bohr

    by rickstrong on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:37:49 PM PST

  •  It was hysterical to read (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virgomusic

    that Microsoft invited about a dozen influential bloggers in for a propaganda session. The climax was when BillG himself walked in to greet the group. The payoff was his double-take when he realized that every single invited guest present was using a Mac laptop!

    News is what they don't want you to know. Everything else is publicity. --Bill Moyers

    by RobLewis on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 04:44:49 PM PST

  •  I hate to get involved in religious disputes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Autarkh, crose

    and although Some May Say that Macintosh use is a Satanic choice, I believe the they are born that way and we should tolerate them and allow them second class citizenship.

    Because I'm a liberal.

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 05:34:20 PM PST

  •  I always root (0+ / 0-)

    For the underdog. You know, the one who is not as popular but always ends up with the babe (unisex use here - must remain PC:) at the end of the movie.

    Macs let you create.
    PC's make you fix things.

    •  Do you honestly believe that? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry, el zilcho, dagor, Autarkh

      I've been creating nice publications for a while with my trusty ol' PC. It might not sound as cool as a Mac commercial, but unlike a Mac commercial, there's a grain of truth to it.

      •  um no (0+ / 0-)

        Trying to do a succinct imitation of lost mac fandom. Forgot snark tag.

        When I was shopping for my first computer years and years ago, I received one priceless piece of advice:

        "Buy what the majority of your friends and people you work with have."

        For me (into music, film, etc. at the time) that happened to be Mac. If I had known Windows users, I probably would have ended up buying a PC.

        I had a few years there where I was worried that Apple would be no more and I would have to relearn/rebuy everything. Then they came out with the imac and the rest is history.

  •  Thomas Jefferson (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Autarkh

    used a quill pen.  I guess he was a conservative.

    I use a PC.  I use it because when I got used to computers, the software I needed mostly ran only on PCs.

    What a silly diary.

    What are you reading? on Friday mornings
    What have you got to learn? (or teach) on Saturdays

    by plf515 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 06:14:27 PM PST

  •  Liberal PCers Unite! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Gin, el zilcho, Autarkh

    Bah.

    Seriously I have used Macs regularly over the last 4 years and I continue to hate all their products. I'm going to continue to avoid buying a Mac until they start making products that I find easy to use.

    So I guess I'm a conservative winger then.

    Seriously though, this pops up a lot and it's really really annoying to hear bloggers proclaim Mac = Liberal.

    There's something attractive about invincible ignorance... for the first 5 seconds.

    by MNPundit on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 06:14:52 PM PST

  •  The Mac is not a Typewriter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, crose

    I recommend that you purchase this book. Maybe then you'll stop adding two spaces after the period. I'm not trying to be anal about this. When you add that damned extra space it screws up the formatting of your posts. Not only do you get the visually unappealing gaps between sentences but the left margins of your text blocks do not align properly and show indents that aren't supposed to be there. You obviously learned to type on a typewriter so this book will hopefully undo that annoying habit.

  •  Breaking: Being a gamer makes you a conservative? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh

    I know things are getting better with the Intel deal, and I almost bought a mac at one point. However, until there is full parity when it comes to games (As in, you can install game A on all OSes, WITHOUT little emulation programs) then I'm stuck by my leisure habits with Windows.

    Like I said, things ARE changing. However, they aren't changing fast enough. Windows remains the "gamer" OS, and until Apple chooses to open their eyes and arms to that market segment (news flash: many gamers have other hobbies too, which would be complimented with the strengths of a Mac, if only Macs could play all their games) Windows will remain the leader in that field.

    I can also be found here, rambling incoherently.

    by BullitNutz on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 06:21:51 PM PST

    •  That's why I use a PC (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh

      Macs don’t support computer gaming like PCs do.  I love the in depth strategy and Roleplaying games that come only come out for the PC.

      If I was an architect that used my home computer for drafting, sure I'd use a Mac instead, but considering my computer is strictly for entertainmet and comunication Macs are pointless to me.

  •  i am so fucking tired of you apple fanboys! (6+ / 0-)

    why must every forum, no matter how unrelated, be made a podium for the latest senseless salvo from apple fanboys?

    if you like macs so much, just use them!  you wont see us pc users making a lifelong crusade of freelance marketing for microsoft.  what the fuck is up with you lot?

    if you want to depend for everything else [including hardware] on the company that makes your OS, you do that.  if, when your computer breaks [which all types may], you're okay with being confronted only with a flashing sad face, fine.

    but for fuck's sake, you dont need to waste the rest of our time blathering on and on endlessly about how the only intelligent people in the world are the ones who make the same overpriced, high end consumer decisions you do.

    •  Cheers! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gin, Autarkh

      I come here to read about politics.  If I wanted to read PC/Apple crap, I'd go to the rest of the internet.

    •  It's a fundamentally different mentality zilcho. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry, crose

      You don't see your PC as part of your wardrobe, as a cultural statement, or proof of how cool and trendy you are. It's a fucking tool, and a really useful one at that. Beyond some offhand statement like: "my wrench works well", or "I’ve never had a problem with this hammer" – you’ll seldom see one pushing tools on others. Evangelist Mac users (not all) have a different perspective: their beloved Macs, iPods, and iPhones say something about them as human beings and they take it upon themselves to liberate us from the thralldom of PC use. If only the ignorant, unsophisticated masses knew the true bliss of Macdom, we would convert in droves. You get the idea.

      Let me share a personal anecdote. A little while back, I was in the market for a new box, and I made the mistake of mentioning to a good friend (and fellow progressive) who is an avid Mac user. He proceeded to try to convince me on why I should get a Cube rather than a custom built PC. Keep in mind that I work in IT and he does not. He stated that Macs were more than the sum of their parts (nonsense), that they had a more efficient architecture (blatant falsehood), but most importantly it looked so cool and small. I pointed out that all my software library and games would be useless on a Mac, and that I wouldn’t be able to customize it to my liking because it used proprietary components and a non-standard case. To him, these observations did not matter – there were surely better Mac equivalents for these apps. Further, why would I want to tinker with a PC when a Mac just works?  As I said, there’s an irreconcilable disconnect – and it doesn’t reflect on political views so much as other personality traits.

      Whatever.    

      "The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -- Albert Einstein

      by Autarkh on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:42:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wish I could recommend this post twice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Autarkh, crose

      "Hi, dKos readers! I thought I'd waste a bit of space on the FRONT FUCKING PAGE to talk about how awesome my consumer product of choice is, and how awesome people are who buy it. By contrast, people who buy competing products are total melvins. Let's talk about how uncool they are!"

    •  Apple fans are also more cultish (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phenry

      Interesting that the writer of the post attributed all good characteristics to Apple fans and all negative characteristics to PC users.

      Steve Jobs is Bush-like in his secrecy and his pettiness.  The breathless excitement with which the latest Apple-anything is unveiled is just plain annoying.

      To top it all off, Jobs insults the last companies (Microsoft, for example) that make the software keeping his platform alive because he has some sort of childish resentment towards what he views as an inferior platform.  He also stopped licensing the OS when he returned to Apple, which meant only apple made Macintosh computers again.  

      He should grow up and so should his worshippers.  

      Software makers keep Apple alive, yet Jobs treats them all with disdain.

      You know what happens when companies are run like a cult?  The cult leader eventually leaves/dies and then the company falls to pieces.  

      Of course, before that, Apple may well sell out to Microsoft by adopting a Windows OS.  Probably when they get tired of developing their own OS for a stagnant market.  When that happens it'll be like Rick Santorum conceding in the '06 election:  Some crazy Jobs/Apple worshipper will scream from the crowd "No, NO!" and normal people will think "are they all that weird?"

  •  As a 'far left' PC User (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, el zilcho, Autarkh, crose

    I can say that my choice in computer has nothing to do with the theories you mentioned.

    I learned how to use a PC waaaaay back in the day (12 years ago when I was 6), and then I continued to get better with them as time went on.

    Macs simply annoy the hell out of me, and until PC's stop meeting my needs there is no need to change.

    And DOS might of been a ridiculous language, but it was the first non-English one I learned ;)

    Just my two cents

    The Truth about [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/12/ap/politics/mainD8MJRGCO0.shtml John McCain]

    by ChapiNation386 on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 06:41:03 PM PST

    •  Same here. (0+ / 0-)

      My first laptop was a Gateway with Windows 95. Ahh, those were heady days.

      My latest laptop came loaded with 2000Pro and I have loved it. My friend's Powerbook seems clunky and hard to deal with. It is all about the tool you started on and not the status.

      Vista? Not so sure about Vista. Let's just take a wait und zee approach.

      "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." Maggie Kuhn -6.75/-7.54

      by crose on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 11:33:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  people-powered Linux user (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh

    And lovin' every bit of it.

    I did buy my daughter a mac mini, I am pretty pleased with it.  I think Apples decision to run on top of BSD was a good move.

    As far as Microsoft is concerned, Hasta la Vista, baby!

  •  oh look (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, Autarkh

    another meta-pie fight diary

    Graphics/prepress person here.
    Working in printing for over 20 years- half of the files are pc half are mac coming into the printshop- no problems with either platform.

    Built my own home network based on PC Windows after my built pc blew the doors off a G5 mac (same ram, same photograph, same action & filters performed on the photograph.

    Graphic apps are built for pc as well as mac, run equally as well on either platform.

    Send my files all over the south-east to approx 20 diff printshops and have no issues with platform.

    We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

    by Silent Lurker on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 07:12:38 PM PST

  •  So, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silent Lurker, Autarkh

    I run Mac OS X on a PC....whats that make me smarty pants??

    Seriously folks, I have Windows XP, Vista Beta, Ubuntu Linux and Mac OS X (hacked on a PC)...They all have strengths and weaknesses.  There is ABSOLUTELY no definitive choice.

    To each their own.

    "you tried to recreate normandy / but you made up the reason to fight" -State Radio

    by cjrasm on Mon Jan 29, 2007 at 08:56:28 PM PST

  •  Now I know... (0+ / 0-)

    ... why I'm strangely attracted to this site:

    Daily Kos statistics show that between 15% and 25% of visitors to this site are using Macs

    Former Apple employee. The absolute best place in the world to work!

  •  i've seen the light (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh

    I didn't think it was possible to have an even more condescending, dumbed-down approach to political analysis than that  "red state/blue state" hogwash, but this post sure opened my eyes.

  •  there are some wingnut Mac users (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Autarkh

    Pudge.  He doesn't have any really good ones right now, but anytime you check out his blog you're likely to find at least one example of jaw-dropping hypocracy.

    I know hypocracy has been a GOP platform for a long time now, but even FOX news generally doesn't show it off in back-to-back segments, like Pudge does on a regular basis.

    Like the time he bitched about his state's requirements for home schooling his kids as meddling in his affairs.  But then in the next post, he talked about how gay couples want to get married without interference from the states were "shoving" homosexual marriage down our throats.

    Or the time he called Boxer a liar for saying the authorization for the invasion of Iraq was about WMD, period.  His reasoning was that the other justifications were Iraq's violations of U.N. resolutions.  I pointed out that the vast majority of those resolutions were about...WMD's.  I said that if half the reason for war was current WMD stuff like the "aluminum tubes" and "Nigerian yellowcake", and the other half were those U.N. resolutions passed after Saddam invaded Kuwait, then, charitably, at least 95% of the reason for war was WMD's, and justified the use of the word "period".  He said "not in this world" and banned me from his blog.  When in the next post down he talked about how Social Security really really was in "crisis", despite having funds to last another 40 years, and even then could go on paying at 75% benefits.

    He'll also go out of his way to split hairs and call Democrats liars over trivial matters (like Boxer) and yet if a Republican does something serious (like oh, say, have a male prostitute ask if Democrats were "divorced from reality") he "doesn't see what the big deal is".  The sad things are that this dumb fat fuck is a Mac user, and also has a journalism degree.

  •  How is elitist crap like this ... (5+ / 0-)

    ... supposed to make liberalism more tolerable to the masses? I know it's not obvious to those of you who don't receive Money From Home(TM), but although lots of people want and need to own a computer these days, not everybody can afford a Mac.

    Macs are expensive. Liberals with discretionary income buy Macs; those of us without health insurance have generic PCs.

    Having the discretionary dough to burn on a Mac doesn't make you any more liberal or creative than a PC owner, any more than owning an Acura makes you a smarter driver than someone in a Taurus, or wearing $200 jogging shoes makes you a better runner than a barefoot Kenyan.

    So I know this is a petty topic; but still, get off yer goddamn high horse already. Give me some fucking money, so that I can buy a Mac and cover my rent, and maybe I'll consider buying in to your precious Apple cult. In the meantime, I'll thank you not to invent new ways to denigrate my political leanings, level of intelligence, and/or creativity based on my choice in PC hardware.

    •  It boils down to the salient quote... (0+ / 0-)

      ...by Steve Jobs back 1996:

      The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have absolutely no taste. And I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way, in the sense that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products. - Steve Jobs

      And those who don't "get" that quote, or disagree with it... well that only proves the underlying point.

      Elitist?

      Sure, if you call having taste, and a true understanding that design matters. And for those who think that design is not so much about usability, presentation and attention to details and such things... I have three words that may drive it home in the political realm... Florida Butterfly Ballots.

      Design matters.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      November 7th, 2006 - America's death spiral halted.

      by Lestatdelc on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:34:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Design matters (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phenry

        Don't I recall a bunch of problems with Macs' power buttons not working right because they were "designed" to be pretty but not functional? Didn't they (and I'm thinking of the hideous cubes) have some sort of button which allowed you to touch a glowing part of the translucent plastic case to turn it on ... but whatever futuristic system allowed that to work began to break down?

        Yeah ... design matters. And flawed design sucks.

        If I wanted to buy a sculpture to make the room look pretty, I would. If I want to buy a computer that, you know, turns on properly, I'll do that. But I don't really care for a sculpture that's also a computer.

        In a weird way, it reminds me of the old floor-model TVs designed to look like furniture. They looked nice when they came out, matched the tastes of the era and helped make a piece of equipment fit better into the room--DESIGN MATTERS after all--but now, they look hideously and laughably dated. Technology-as-sculpture does not age gracefully.

      •  Design ≠ "taste" (0+ / 0-)

        Those who don't "get" that, or disagree with it... well, that only proves the underlying point.

  •  Worthless thread (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry

    As a liberal, professional musician and composer who uses a PC for work and play, this thread is a complete waste of time. Why must there be this kind of intentiona division? It's not enough that we share a vision of what we want the world to be, we have to use the same brand of electronics? Fuck off, 'devilstower'.

  •  Pound for pound, I've found that (0+ / 0-)

    the hardcore Mac users are more like cheerleaders.
    Hardcore Linux users are the true snobs.
    And hardcore Windows users are just the biggest dicks of them all.
    (replace "users" with "fanboys", if you like)

    Personally, I switched from XP to OS X 10.3 a few years ago and I love it.  
    Then I bought a copy of 10.4 and I hated it.  SSOOOOOOOOOO slow!  It just CONSTANTLY hangs.  Spinning ball, all the time.  So slow, in fact, that I had to go back to 10.3.  
    I use 10.4 at work and it's terribly slow here, too.  It's sad that Apple seems have have, for whatever reason (probably Spotlight), taken two steps back with 10.4.  
    I can't even recommend people buy a Mac anymore in good conscience.  

    Also, because I haven't seen it mentioned here...if you really want to needle a Mac user, you start off a post with the following title:
    The hardest part about owning a Mac...
    is tell your dad you're gay.

  •  Not this shit again (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry

    As a graphic designer who has used a PC for years I get this crap all the time. Mostly from snotty designers who don't know better.

    Mac is sooo much cooler than PC. Really? Who gives a crap? Computers are tools. That's it. It's like arguing that Makita drills are sooo much more cooler and liberal than Craftsman.

    I've used both. My first computer was an Apple and I set up a Mac Network in converting an old employer from cut and paste to digital.

    I like Macs too. In fact I'd love to get one for my primary work machine, but there's a number of reasons I don't. The short story is Mac screwed the pooch for themselves by being stingy with proprietary software and the range of available software far-outweighs that of the Macs. I like that flexibility.

    Next, cost. As a graphic designer (and an avid gamer) I have to replace machines every three years to stay current. Especially since because I need the portability I've switched to laptops. I can now pick up a excellently configured, high preformance laptop for under 2000. Nothing Mac has comes close yet in comparable price. Not counting the thousands of dollars in graphics programs I'd have to replace. If I had started with Macs I'd have spent thousands of dollars more in the 15+ years I've been working as designer.

    Some Mac owners need to get a clue and realise that PC users usually have a pretty damn good reason they choose PCs. I hate Microsoft, but for me Mac positives simply don't outweigh the advantages of the PC for me at this time. If you want to use a Mac and love it, I'm happy for you but it's not for everyone. I'm not keeping up with Dieter. My computer is a tool, not a statement of coolness, ideology or a religion.

  •  4 Chips in 10 years (0+ / 0-)

    Motorolla, Power PC, G3/4, and now Intel.  If you are a power user (with lots of expensive programs) this kind of thing makes you want to kill yourself.  I started out as a Mac fan.  Loved them.  As an editor, Avid was on a Mac, so I bought them too.

    Besides the limited software available (Gamer? Tough luck.  Got a hobby that's going digital?  Sorry, all the home programmers only write for PC) and the fact that you have to buy a whole new MAC every 3 years (either becasue it breaks, or they upgrade the chip so new software wont work on your old Mac, or they upgrade the OS and it runs too slow on your old machine) my biggest beef was that despite the "think differently" BS, it order to use their software you have to think like them.  Mac softare and hardware designers make stuff that works for people who don't think too much about how things work or why.  They build things that work perfectly as long as you agree with the designers that their way of getting a job done is the best way.  

    Just take the iPod as an example.  Great design, easy to use and all that.  But just try and use it with a player other than iTunes.  Try and download a song from someone other than Apple.  Don't like the way the software names and organizes songs you rip from a CD? You're S.O.L.  Before my iPod crashed (1 month out of warranty), I had to rip songs using Musicmatch because the Apple song naming convention sucks and there's no way to change it.  Rip a compilation CD in iTunes and you find it's put each song in a separate folder cus the designers decided for you that that's the way you should organize your library.  AGGGGGGH!

  •  elitist nonsense (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry

    It's this kind of elitist nonsense that gives the word liberal a negative connotation.  Shut the fuck up about your precious little mac already.

  •  Dopey analysis, Comrade (0+ / 0-)

    I remember the shock and awe the first time I heard Jerry Rubin go on and on about "not trusting anybody over 30." Really? How stupid can you get.

    Don't get me wrong. I love my Mac, and I've always found Windows clunky and weird. But there are perfectly fine people who can make those dull, clunky machines sing. The point is, this is a dumb way to talk about politics, or sexuality, or anything else. It's advertisement and image politics, about as long-lasting and eternal as an ad slogan. "Gee, those coke drinkers, they're so square. Pepsi drinkers, now, they're young an hip and cool!" Uh-uh. That's a way to sell colored water, not to think of people.

    Good example? Rush Limbaugh is a Mac guy. I shit you not. What does THAT say about the Mac? Nothing.

  •  uhhh. (0+ / 0-)

    Sure, 15-25% may be using macs here, but that still means that 75-85% are still using PCs.

    Really, this post is kind of insulting, comparing PC users to conservatives. It's a weak correlation, like the 'murder and ice cream rates both go up in summer, therefore eating ice cream causes murders' logical fallacy.

    Quite honestly? I don't use Apple products because I think they're crappy quality, and that most people buy them simply BECAUSE it's hip to own an iPod or iMac or iBook because they look sleek and high tech. Yeah, thanks, but I'll keep using my custom PC and my non-iPod Creative Zen Vision (hey, look, no DRM restrictions!) instead.

    Although, I will say, posts like this that demonstrate the self-righteous superiority complex of Apple users makes people who don't use Apples loathe those who do.

    •  note from an unfashionable DCC (0+ / 0-)

      Nothing like an OS flame war for entertainment.  
      This 20 year digital content creator appreciates Apple as the standard by which all industrial design should be measured.  
      I'd be happy if every cellphone maker in the world threw out their clumsy, unintuitive interfaces and licensed Apple's, but I need cheap computing horsepower, not stylish packaging, to get my art done, and you don't get that from Apple.  
      I find insufferable the entire self aggrandizing fashion/marketing/company philosphy surrounding Apple.  For Pete's sake, we can't all be hip 20 something flmmakers, with carefully cultivated 2.5 day beard growths.  Apple's marketing is not at all subtle,
      the "genius bar" in the store? please.  Perhaps a shiny laptop will get you some attention when you pull it out in Starbuck's, but I bet it doesn't really get you laid.

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