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Daily Kos lately has been replete with accusations and counter-accusations about anti-Semitism.  Many start diaries or comments with "anti-Israel is not anti-Semitism, so don't call me an anti-Semite," or, more commonly, "some people use the accusation of anti-Semitism to stifle debate," often followed by something about "the Jews."  So I decided to take a look at the accusations, the counter-accusations, and the underlying "support" for the arguments.  This all came to a head with the Elie Weisel diaries.  This One, which received recommendations and plenty of tips, was derived entirely from propagandist anti-Semitic websites, and enthusiastically quoted Daniel McGowan, an apologist for Ernst Zundel, the man who wrote "The Hitler We Loved and Why," and "Did Six Million Really Die?"

Anybody who doubts the existence of genuine Holocaust denial or real anti-Semitism here on Daily Kos need but read on.  This is NOT a discussion about disagreeing with Israel, but of genuine, honest to goodness, hateful anti-Semitism.  

The diary cited above also quoted Christopher Hitchens at length, and if that wasn't enough of a clue, Hitchens relied extensively on Joran Jermas, known on the nets and unfortunately far too often on Daily Kos, by his fraudulent Jewish perssonna "Israel Shamir." If you want clear proof of anti-Semitism on Daily Kos, just Google "Israel Shamir" on daily kos, and you will find it.  Shamir, by the way, is the fellow who brought us such things as

Palestinians are perfect mammals; their life is deeply rooted in the ground...Israeli people represent a virus form of a human being because they can live anywhere.

Jesus taught, love your neighbour as yourself, even if he is a traditional enemy of Jews, a Samaritan. That is why he was hated by the Jewish supremacists of his time. He said: you can not worship God and Mammon, the god of greed, you have to choose. That is why he was hated by supply-side economists and bankers of his day. They sentenced him to death and the Empire obliged and carried out the execution, in order to keep peace with these all-important forces. Our fathers did not dare to speak against their leaders. The spirit of domination scored a victory, but the spirit of brotherhood did not vanish.

Two weeks ago, Russian-language journalist Israel Shamir told a largely Jewish audience: 'Jews only exist to drip the blood of Palestinian children into their matzas.

But enough about "Shamir," for this is not about him. It is about so many of you so willingly sucked into his hateful hucksterism, because his image of "a Jew" willing to say such things makes you think its okay to say such things too.

I noted some of these in a comment a few days ago, but they are worth repeating.  Note- Michigan Paul has repudiated his statements and apologized:

   Free speech does not mean that you have a right (0+ / 10-)
   
   to invitations to any and all fora where people do not want to listen to you.

   That so ?
   then why is it that the Zionazi Horowitz demanding freedom of speech in universities - apparently you and other Zionanzis seems to believe that people should be forced to listen to that yapping idiot Horowitz - why ?? because he spews that bS calim that Jews are supposedly special ?

   by DonR on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 11:59:13 AM PST

The use of the phrase "Zionazi" alone is enough to qualify as anti-Semitism in this Jews' book.

   He's a jew (1+ / 38-)
   
   he is just another Jewish right wing freak... They are all over the place these days. Their agenda is make the world safe for Israel and kill as many arabs as possible makes that possible.

   They won't say it.. but it is transparant as glass...  They got us into the Iraq war... or at least did whatever they could to make it happen.

Does it really matter who the poster was referring to when he said "He's a jew?"  No, I didn't think so either.

   Jews should be ashamed of their (1+ / 18-)

   mafioso culture.

   It's a cultural problem they need to deal with amongst themselves, like yesterday. Liberal Jews need to be  more assertive in telling their extremist brothers where to park their whackjob agendas. Lord knows Jews won't let anyone outside their circle criticize them without screaming "Antisemite!!!" (Juan of course is well aware of that brand of bullcrap) like a bunch of lemmings, so they need to take care of it within their own community.

   As it stands, their crooked culture of deamonization and extremism is as much an embarrassment to America as rightwing cristo-fascist culture.

   Joe Lieberman exists for a reason. And America should be ashamed of him and his supporters. I think we're seeing that.

   by ghostbuster on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:04:19 PM PST

Jews are a monolithic block, a "mafioso culture," uniquely responsible for the actions of each other.  That is yet another anti-Semitic canard, another version of an international Jewish conspiracy.

actually now I deny the holocaust (0+ / 18-)

before it was just kind of a curious "fails the smell" test but after further research I've decided I can offically deny any "final solution."

The jews were forced labor in a coal-gasification to supply the German's dwindling eastern front gas needs. Zyklon B was a delousing agent. The Po9lish gov't has reduced the official death count at Aushwitz from 3 million to 600,000. 3 million bodies could never be cremated in the amount of necessary time. No functioning gas chamber was ever found (except the one built be the Soviets, after the war). The aushwitz commander's confession was coerced (and written in English), and the Nuremberg trials were a kangaroo court. None of the evidence presented to prove the existance of confined-space gas chambers would hol dup in any American court and I find that troubling.

But your mind is made up. Good for you. So don't talk to me. I really don't care all that much about this, but at least I smell bullshit when I see it, unlike a mindless drone like you.

cum lade in chemistry

"He lives most life whoever breathes most air." Elizabeth Barrett Browning

"Reduce carbon emissions. Now." - SeattleChris

by SeattleChris on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:10:36 PM PST

Ah, Holocaust Denial, an entire industry of anti-Semitism, far too common the basis for diaries and comments right here on our "Democratic" website.

You are an exception (0+ / 17-)

Yes, I know, there are actually some average income Jews out there, even poor ones.  But they are clearly an exception.  I know this sounds horrible, and it is not the point of my posts-which are clearly against the present barbaric actions of the Zionist state of Israel-but look up the names of the owners of the mainstream media in this country, along with the banking and finance sectors.

Also, the neocons who brought us the disastorous Iraq war is heavily represented by Zionist Jews eager to advance their goal of the "Greater Israel" and go back to the borders God gave to Moses in the Old Testament-I think Exodus or Deuteronomy or somewhere.

I used to think of Jews in general as natural liberal allies and representatives of compassionate policies both at home and abroad.

No longer.

"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."-FDR

by Michigan Paul on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:51:03 PM PST

Michigan Paul did apologize for this, but it does show not only how he felt at the time, but that he felt sufficiently "mainstream" here to write such a comment.

Joe the Jew? (0+ / 16-)

I did not know until today that Joe is a Jew. Now I know why he is so pro war. It seems all Jews are, or the Israelis are all pro war. I know, I know, people are going to say I am against jews. No, I just do not like what the Israelis are doing to the lebanonis, what they are doing to themselfs, just to try and look like bush, and how much hell are we, the USA going to catch in the future over this unjust war?

by Dwolfaz on Thu Aug 10, 2006 at 02:16:27 AM PST

Joe=Jew=Israel.  It just goes around and around and around.

   JEWS TOO GOOD FOR US MILITARY (0+ / 15-)

  If Jews love the US so much- how come their #'s in the US military are dismal?  Instead of selling ones soul to be diamond brokers, investment bankers, doctors, and entertainment smucks (on borrowed grants/loans for tuition) perhaps the US should be like Israel and require some military service. Now this goes for every spoiled Northeast brat as well.  Daily Kos bitching would be a little more germane if the bitches could fire an M-16 or take an order ot two.  Everyone is a chief in Kos with no good answers.

   by PEARSAYS on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:26:30 PM PST

Was there some kind of contest to see how many stereotypes could fit in one paragraph.  

But it's not just comments by random posters.  We get more diaries, too, including this one which clearly ATTACKS based upon the author's conflation of Jewish and Israeli.

Here is a perfect example of one of our most virulent anti-Semites hiding behind the claim people cry "anti-Semitism" too easily:

 overcharging "anti-semitism" (0.55 / 9)
Zionists are going to call criticism of Israel anti-semitism no matter what.

And Jews don't speak up against this abuse of "anti-semitism" in most instances.

Right Wingers don't like Bush and the war to be criticized. Like during the Vietnam War the war apologists say they support a limited right of dissent, but just not the kind of dissent that's happening.

But even Cindy Sheehan gets criticized, because her dissent is... too effective.

If Zionists want to play the game of attacking the motives of Israel's critics, this game can go two ways.

It seems there is ample evidence that Zionists have a deep seated hatred of Arab, Muslims and especially Palestinians.

As I've pointed out, the "anti-semitic" Israel critics on dKos have never advocated killing, torturing or imprisoning a single Jew or Israeli.

But Zionists advocate policies that kill, torture and imprison Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians and consider this normal and AOK.

If you are interested in the politics of Proviso Township in Cook County, Illinois, visit Proviso Probe.

by Carl Nyberg on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 11:59:00 AM PST

So why do I call Carl anti-Semitic?  How about these gems:

 non-Jews are all Nazis (0.85 / 14)
Jews are worse than the Nation of Islam on this point. The NOI only preached "Whites" were the Devil.

Jews teach each other that non-Jews are all potential Nazis. If they wouldn't send Jews to the death camps they'd look the other way when it happens.

This is profoundly racist on the part of Jews to be spreading this ideology. It also makes Jews dysfunctional when dealing with non-Jews on Israel.

If you are interested in the politics of Proviso Township in Cook County, Illinois, visit Proviso Probe.

by Carl Nyberg on Wed Jun 22, 2005 at 01:38:52 PM PST

 Jewish orgs benefit from the conflict (0.57 / 7)
American Jewish orgs basically profit from the conflict.

  1. The Israel/Palestine conflict heightens Jewish identity within the United States. Jewish orgs hope this will lead to more Jews marrying Jews so more children will be raised Jewish.
  2. American Jewish organizations raise money on tragedies from the conflict. Nothing makes the cash register jingle like the picture of a pretty pregnant Jewish woman killed by a suicide bomber.

If you are interested in the politics of Proviso Township in Cook County, Illinois, visit Proviso Probe.

by Carl Nyberg on Tue Jul 05, 2005 at 10:03:36 PM PST

That's not all for Carl- I just didn't feel like digging through the archives to find his comment about "money-lenders."  Unfortunately, he is not alone. We have seen blatant anti-Semitism and blatant Holocaust denial, sometimes alone, sometimes together. Here is a good example of Holocaust denial, written in a diary about Aushwitz, on the anniversary of its liberation:

 Was that the only prisoner of war camp in WWII (0+ / 8-)

cause a guy I knew in my town where I grew up spent 11 months in a P.O.W. Camp under the Japanese military! Hope he wasn't telling me a lie.

Oh and de-nuke the entire middle east or have Israel sell Iran a couple of nukes and India heck sell them 5 nukes. Take North Korean's market away!

1)Diamonds and gold should go the way of furs! 2) Have Israel sell Iran a nuke and stop N. Korea's market!

by tonyray on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 04:43:44 AM PST

This diary is an ugly combination of anti-Semitism, Holocaust denial, and absurd equivalence.  It asks whether the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were heroes, and describes the Gestapo as "local law enforcement," in yet another version of 'the Jews bring it on themselves':

The Jews begin to establish underground organizations to collect intelligence on German activities as well as to smuggle food and arms into the ghetto. These are violations of German law and the Gestapo with their usual thoroughness use terror and torture to try and break their ranks for they were the lawful law enforcement agency.

From there it goes on to discuss the I/P issue, in as disgusting a bit of equivalence as one can expect to see.  And the diary, instead of being roundly condemned, brought plenty of supportive comments, like:

 No, I agree there is a point of comparison (6+ / 0-)

between Warsaw 1939 and Palestine 1948, and only in the limited sense of ethnic cleansing.

As far as Israel continues to perpetuate the cleansing operations conducted by the Hagana in 1948, in that sense there is a comparison.

The broad outline is the awareness that the Final Solution was arrived at gradually, in part as a response to events that occurred during the war.

Denying the Nakba is on a par with denying the Holocaust

by litho on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:31:08 PM PST

and this bit of historic revisionism, which got 7 recommends:

 I hope they're not (7+ / 6-)

and I'm not suggesting they are, but this is really speculation on your part. When the Jews were first herded into the Warsaw ghetto, the Holocaust wasn't announced. The Warsaw ghetto fighters were responding to the conditions in the ghetto, not those in the death camps, and they were entiraly justified in doing so. I generally don't think comparisons between Zionism and Nazism are very helpful precisely because we can't help but view everything the Nazis did through the lens of their mass extermination of the Jews. But its not hard to see why folks might be tempted to compare the Naqba to Kristalnacht or Israeli policies in the occupied territories to those used in the Warsaw ghetto. One group that has not hesitated to see the parallels have been Israeli military planners who have studied the suppression of the Warsaw ghetto for the lessons it might offer their efforts to suppress Palestinian resistance.  

"Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

by Christopher Day on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:25:58 PM PST

One example of such support, which includes fantasies about rich Jews, is:

 nice post-- (5+ / 6-)

I think there are important lessons from Warsaw that can be applied to Palestine--one being that not everyone inside or affected by a bad situation is automatically "good" or a "hero"--there were wealthier Jews who were able to game the system, and there were the equivalent of "trustys" and fake "councilmembers" who also hurt themselves and others, and there were those who used violence and other things to try to either get out or just make life bearable and survive.

Comparisons are always tricky. And i personally think that Zionism has failed precisely because of the entrenched fear (and actions arising out of that fear) overriding all other considerations.

I read this the other day, and was absolutely appalled and shamed for us (us as Jews, and humans in general: Life Under Prohibition in Palestine

by amberglow on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:14:14 PM PST

Not, by the way, the poster's only comment:

 Yes the Jews did (0+ / 6-)

And it was psychological. They stole the German language. After War I they were permitted to go to University and they went in droves. It was as if they had been studying entrance exams all their lives. They took over every branch of learning. They excelled in languages, art, music, medicine, law, literature, science, physics, everything the Germans held dear was taken over by brilliant and creative Jews. The Germans were completely pushed out of academic achievement except for the few exceptions.

I felt that way when I went to Beaver College in 1953 and took an American literature course. The Jewish girls in my high school had been preoccupied (as all of us were) with clothes, dates, etc. The Jewish girls at Beaver were something else again. They were brilliant. They could write papers the likes of which I could hardly understand. And I came from one of the top five public schools in the US and nobody wrote like that there except for some Jewish rabbi sons. My high school was full of anti semitism and black racial profiling in classes.

I very quickly learned that I was not from a privileged class if they could perform like that. So I imagine that was just a slight tickle of the way the Germans felt when their literary language of German became the mouthpiece of the Jews.

Walter Benjamin. Alfred Doebler. Kurt Weill. And so many others I have forgotten. They were violently jealous and fell into Hitler's thinking more easily. Who is the writer that wrote I am a Camera about that time as he was living there then?

by abbeysbooks on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 06:31:45 PM PST

and this one, comparing "walls" to institutionalized slaughter:

 Yes (5+ / 10-)

Talking about Israel on this site is like talking to neocons about Bush.  They just can't see.

Is Israel building walls around the Palestinians?  Are Palestinians herded into a smaller and smaller areas?  Are Palestinians restricted in their movements?  Are their homes and villages taken and destroyed at the whim of Israeli authorities?  Are the Palestinians being crushed through brute military force?  

Yes, just like the Jews in the Ghetto.  And like the polish Jews, the Palestinians resist with the only means they have available.

Yes, there are parallels.  Reality and truth is important even though Neocons and our own Israeli defenders claim their own reality.

by Jagger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:04:48 PM PST

Let's move on to some other diaries, and see what kind of comments we find.  Here's one little horror entitled Holocaust Hucksterism.

here is one of the comments that delight brought to us:

 There's no business like (1+ / 3-)

Shoah business and the Likudnik-nudniks know this all too well.

by Litvak36 on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 03:42:25 PM PST

what other comments and posters do we find at Daily Kos?

 Please forgive Mel Gibson ... (0+ / 6-)

for speaking the truth ... as they say in Canada ... in vino veritas eh!

LIVE FREE OR DIE

by Easterling on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 10:14:09 PM PST

 Jay, I think it is violence per se that is (10+ / 7-)

probably on the rise - I continuously see a hostility in tone, in language, in actions, everywhere; from email, phone, crime statistics in the US, hostility against people of color, there is an upward trend across the board; people continuously do double-takes of us when they see us on our street, driving, in the supermarket, anywhere. I dont take it personally - they don't know me.

A woman on the metro about 3 weeks ago, would not let me sit because she felt I was occupying more space than her, and she felt she was being 'discriminated against' being a 'thinner' person, and therefore consuming less of 'metro's' precious consumable - space - so she stuck her bag between her and me and pushed against me for more than half the journey, until I thought it was ridiculously childish and got up and walked away to the center aisle.

I thought that was an isolated incident, until last week, a similar thing happened, with a woman refusing to yield an empty seat in a crowded train, to a 2nd woman, instead using the empty space to rest her bag, as she was 'first' in the crowded train - this is in DC, the 'capital of the western world' in a country with an annual budget of $2.9 trillion!!

I have ridden trains in India with people hanging from open compartments and still stretching out their hand to help push a straggler through much like the New York construction worker who put his life on the line to save an ill man on the subway..the difference being that in India it used to be the norm, in NYC, it was lauded as the exception.

I'm not trying to generalize, I think both the women concerned, had some borderline mental issues.

My point is that aggressiveness, self-centeredness, and fear of the "Other" or xenophobia is rising in general, and they are also mental issues.

You must not feed upon the paranoia that jews and only jews feel pain, feel hurt, feel excluded, and are continually victims, in a world where jewish dominance and strength and political power spanning across continents and oceans has been enough to drive this $2.9 trillion economy into a one-sided war that has totally battered and militarily exterminated the people, culture, and  economies of 2 countries, Iraq and Afghanistan, whose combined land mass is probably at least a third as large as the US!

So please lend some balance to your campaign to save jewish humanity, and only jewish humanity, and the rest of the world be damned. I yearn to hear the cry come out that a human is in pain, and not hear a reference to color, ethnicity, bank balance, religious, political, gender or other affiliation of the victim - I think only then can we say we have turned away from the brink - until then we are all doomed, my friend!!!!

by LibertyGuard on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 07:38:10 PM PST

here's once conflating Jew with Israel:

 by no credible metric (1+ / 6-)

are jews the net victims today. jews are the net oppressors, not the victims. israel is at "war" today because of the resistance of the world to israel's forcible occupation of the west bank and gaza anbd israel's inhumane and brutal treatment of the 4 million or so palestinians living under occupation.

i have no sympathies whatsoever for a barbarian who feels misunderstood.

by BlueMe on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:16:29 AM PST

Just as an aside, let me give you an example of something I do NOT think is anti-semitic, but just anti-Israel, even if I personally find it stupid and disgusting:

 No Israel = Peace in the Middle East (0+ / 14-)

There will be no peace in the Middle East until there is no longer a group of terrorists called "israeli's" in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and surrounding cities.  The United States continues to push billions of dollars at our "friends" in israel who have yet to do one god damned thing for the United States except generate votes.  I personally support the President of Iran in his condemnation of Israel.  I also believe that the only "roadmap" to peace in the Middle East is one that has roads running through Palestine with no mention of Israel anywhere in the neighborhood. If only it could come true.  Fuck Israel.  

"I think I may need a bathroom break. Is this possible?" - Love note from Dumbya to Condi

by Curlew on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 04:24:43 AM PST

and now, back to our show.

We even had a diary claiming anti-Semitism doesn't really exist, 'it just means not pro-Jewish enough."  This particular horror story was a reiteration of Henry Ford's lies about Jewish "exceptionalism," found in his "The International Jew."  Ford wrote about it:

Jewish intolerance today, yesterday and in every age of history where Jews were able to exert influence or power, is indisputable except among people who do not know the record. Jewish intolerance in the past is a matter of history; for the future it is a matter of Jewish prophecy. One of the strongest causes militating against the full Americanization of several millions of Jews in this country is their belief - instilled in them by their religious authorities - that they are "chosen," that this land is theirs, that the inhabitants are idolators, that the day is coming when the Jews will be supreme.

Ford also seemed to agree with diarist on the non-existence of anti-Semitism, saying

There is no such thing as anti-Semitism. There is only a very little and a very mild anti-Jewism.

Ford, of course, was really just rewriting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which had this to say about Jews:

In this divergence between the Gentiles and ourselves in ability to think and reason is to be seen clearly the seal of our election as the chosen people, as higher human beings, in contrast with the Gentiles who have merely instinctive and animal minds. They observe, but they do not foresee, and they invent nothing (except perhaps material things). It is clear from this that nature herself predestined us to rule and guide the world.

and that diary was recommended, uprated, and even described as "brilliant" by one person:

 Brilliant Diary (3+ / 0-)

Well said and right on.

by Near Vanna on Wed Feb 07, 2007 at 09:25:10 AM PST

I'm going to bed too (4+ / 7-)

I can't believe so many people praise Elie Wiesel so.
He can write well. So.
"Good article," writes another. "Just what I suspected. Whenever that old Holocaust Knight of Sad Countenance, Elie Weisel, starts tilting at the old genocide windmill, crying ‘Never again!’ I get suspicious."
a stupid prof
Let's see. He is against the Sudan government. So are the neocons (they want China out so they can get their greedy hands on the oil). He is against Iran. So are the neocons (they want the mullahs out so they can get their greedy hands on the oil). So far, I'm not impressed. Why is he sitting idly by while Saudi Arabia oppresses its people? The Saudi media is spinning the Sunni-Shi'ite hatred that will continue to kill for years to come. Where is he on that? They Saudis are funding the Sunnis the Iraq who are doing the majority of the killing. Neither the Nobel Prize winning (FOR WRITING, NOT FOR PEACEMAKING) Elie Wiesel or our adminstration says squat. Let's bomb Iran.
He thinks forcing everyone to look at the Holocaust (the Jews killed, not the gays, the union workers, etc.) will solve the world's problems? Now to that, I call bullshit. He is an arrogant individual.
I went to school in an all white small town. Since there were no tribes, races, religions, to distinguish us whiteys, I was picked on for being skinny. Thrown against lockers, beat up, picked on, on a daily basis. That is, until the Mexicans showed up. Finally, I had some friends. We got picked on together...
Humans are evil. And Jews don't have a corner on the who got killed market. And this is one of my two complaints about Mr. Wiesel. One, he focuses on the Jewish side. Two, he gets in front of popular struggles. How brave.
Give me Mel Brooks any day. (Just watched Blazing Saddles the other night. Mel Brooks as the Jewish Indian..."Oy vay! They darker than us!" Great movie.)
Or Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart stands up to the assholes leading the our country into moral decay. He doesn't give them cover, he exposes them.
by mickT on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:31:53 PM PST

So why am I writing this?  Just to document the atrocities?  No. I'm writing this because it is getting out of hand.  Somehow, somewhere, Daily Kos because COMFORTABLE to these people, because a place this kind of outright hate, the kind of thing one might find on a neo-nazi website, became okay, even getting recommends.  These people should have all been troll rating into oblivion in perpetuity.  Why?

Let me tell you why. Because Daily Kos exists to get Democrats elected.  And Jews are a big part of that equation.  And every time one of these bits of filth writes with approval, or anything less than our complete disdain, they hurt that cause.  These diaries and comments pop up on the right-wing sites, and you are just kidding yourself if think that can't come back to haunt us.  So, final observation.

STOP IT!  JUST STOP IT!  ENOUGH ALREADY!  YOU ARE HURTING PEOPLE HERE, AND YOU ARE HURTING THE PURPOSE OF THIS BLOG.  TO THOSE WHO CLAIM ANTI-SEMITISM DOESN'T EXIST HERE, OPEN YOU'RE DAMNED EYES.  AND IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE QUOTED ABOVE AND YOU STILL DON'T GET IT, JUST  GO AWAY.  YOU ARE EVIL, AND YOU ARE PERPETUATING EVIL THROUGH YOUR HATRED.

Originally posted to Palate Press: The online wine magazine on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:48 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  I’d think then number of posters on Kos (10+ / 0-)

      Who think the Holocaust didn’t happen or might not have happened are very few in number.  

      Not that it would be scientific but you could add a poll – did the Holocaust happen – yes, no, not sure.  

      And FUCK the defense in the Libby trial is not going to call Darth Cheney!

      'Events are in the saddle and ride mankind.' Emerson

      by deepsouthdoug on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:53:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder how this whole denial thing started... (3+ / 0-)

        I'm over 45 years old, and have always tried to keep abreast of the latest in news of all kinds, and I don't remember hearing about holocaust denial until some time in the Eighties.

        What is the point? What could ever be the point of holocaust denial? For that matter, what the heck good has it ever done to attach a term like "holocaust" (which I read is a word used in describing a Jewish animal sacrifice in the bible - literally "whole-burning") to the crimes committed by the Nazis?

        I'm being sincere about this. I don't think I've ever met a single person in my life who has tried to suggest that there was not persecution of Jews in Europe and specifically in Germany. And if I did meet one, that person would have no credibility with me. But, the fact that Hitler and his regime had a "final solution" to what they considered the Jewish problem doesn't meant the Nazis only persecuted and killed Jews; lots of other kinds of people were persecuted and killed too.

        In the end, the Nazis failed. They tried to commit a genocide and failed. Their crimes were horrible and indefensible. I think that attaching the term "holocaust" to the situation is a mistake, and is in itself somewhat provocative. But then, I do think that there are special circumstances regarding a group of people who choose to separate themselves the way Jews and Christians and Muslims (to cite just the three major western religions) have done that do not make them like other persecuted groups, like the ones I read referred to in this thread such as "women, blacks and gays".

        Women, blacks and gays are in groups of people who have been persecuted for what they were born as, not for what they believe as an ideology or religion. And those groups have never really gained their total freedom from oppression and become a group with power (even in America to this day), as the Jews to their credit have widely done.

        I am not Jewish. I have many friends who are, and one of my closest friends in life of the last twenty one years is Jewish. Another one of my closest friends is not Jewish and his life-partner is a Jewish woman, and that same friend's sister is married to a Jewish man. We talk. We watch football games and movies together. We do not hold back on the deep questions about the I/P issue nor any other. And we do not hate.

        The religion question is so indescribably complex that it seems useless to try and go into the details and minutia of any one religion or sect. But many, many people do go into that discussion, and from what I have seen, most of them never seem to come out. But it does seem pretty obvious to me that if any person or group says of themselves that they are solely chosen and singled out as special and superior to others by no less than God, they are going to get a severe, and hostile reaction from those around who have to hear it. And whether or not that is what Jews do in fact claim exactly, I won't presume to say. But I do think that that is the general perception among many, many people.

        There was a war called WW2, and Jews were singled out, among others, for persecution and death. That was a terrible crime against humanity, not just a terrible crime against Jews, it seems to me. And to call out others who say there was no holocaust? I don't know what those kind of people exactly mean when they use the term "holocaust", but I DON'T WANT TO KNOW. I would ignore such nonsense, and not dignify the baseness of such claims with a response requiring my valuable time.

        Now as to how such a thing as "holocaust denial" affects current, unfolding events and circumstances... I wouldn't pretend to understand that very well either. It just seems like one shouldn't have to use calling bullshit on holocaust deniers as a means of somehow legitimizing modern political policies that oppress others in ways that may begin to resemble some early aspects of the persecution of Jews in Germany in WW2.

        It's all so complicated. And there is a fight over limited land between peoples who cannot seem to agree to live in peace. And so these kinds of discussions provide places for people to flame and insult and spout off about something they feel passionate about. The "holocaust denial" subject seems relatively low on the list of practical, relevant subjects that need tackling. Anti semitism per se is another matter, and of course all hatred of that sort is unacceptable. Unfortunately it is not easy to avoid much confusion over what really represents hate, and what represents legitimate and necessary discussion when the sensitivities and passions run so high as they do these days.

        Change is inevitable, embrace it.

        by The House on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:04:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Holocaust deniers don't really doubt it happened (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The House

          they're just pissed that Hitler didn't finish the job.

          •  not 100% true (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hypersphere01, The House

            I don't doubt that many holocaust deniers feel that way, but I don't agree that your statement is 100% accurat, for one main reason: definition of a holocaust denier.  
            I have seen people being called a holocaust denier because they question the specifics of the holocaust, not if it happened at all.  This accusation seems unfair to me.

            •  It depends on what one means by specifics. (4+ / 0-)

              If it's 5.2 million vs 6 million, than no that's not a denier.

              Someone saying the gas chambers weren't used to kill people?  A classic denier using an indirect way of doing so.  

              •  why would it matter? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hypersphere01, The House

                If someone believes the Nazis lined people up and shot all of them versus sticking them in a gas chamber why does that make them a denier?  It's silly, of course, considering the evidence, but I don't see why it's holocaust denying, and certainly not anti-semitic.

                •  No gas chambers = fewer people (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Warren Terrer, blueness

                  killed, as a matter of logistics and physical limitations.  

                  It also detracts from the organized, industrial scale and nature of the extermination.

                  •  you're reading into statements (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    hypersphere01

                    And drawing your conclusions based on what you think someone meant, versus what they actually said.  That's not right.

                  •  And again, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    hypersphere01, sunshineonthebay

                    No gas chambers = fewer people

                    Wouldn't even one person be enough to warrant the harshest judgment that can be made on a person?

                    Isn't murder equally bad in every case? Are we really going to somehow grade degrees of heinousness from murder to murder?

                    If someone is denying the holocaust, and I do not sympathize with them whatsoever, but if someone is denying the holocaust, then unless that means the same thing as that they do not believe that there is such a thing as anti-semitism, that they do not believe that Jews have ever been persecuted for nothing other than being Jewish, then what difference does it make how many people were involved? Didn't Stalin kill something like twenty million? Would that make him more or less evil than Hitler?

                    See, it's a crazy discussion to try and have. Murder is wrong. The Nazis committed murder, and each individual complicit in the process deserves nothing less than the harshest sentence that can be levied on anyone, which is, I believe, ultimately death. This talk of numbers seems like grotesque nonsense. War is bad, always. And people die in war always. These distinctions do not seem to serve much purpose beyond sparking heated interactions. If that is so, why would anyone want to spark heated interactions?

                    Change is inevitable, embrace it.

                    by The House on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:06:42 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  What you said... (0+ / 0-)

                  I was thinking just that and then read your post.

                  Change is inevitable, embrace it.

                  by The House on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 04:52:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You fail to appreciate that (3+ / 0-)

                  the denial of gas is part of the overall denial- no gas chambers -> no industrialization -> FAR fewer dead -> no wholesale slaughter -> prisoner of war camps only -> death by typhus and other diseases -> no genocide. The claim there were no gas chambers does not exist in a vacuum, but as part of organized denial.

                  A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

                  by dhonig on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:22:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  why it matters (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pumpkinlove, jhritz

                  There was a single building at Auschwitz, Krema II, in which nearly half a million people were gassed and cremated.

                  If that doesn't matter, I don't know what there is on earth that can truly be said to matter.

            •  But questioning the Holocaust (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TiaRachel, Pumpkinlove, blueness, zemblan

              is a political tactic. It's not that they doubt it occurred, but it will be more difficult for them to try it again if people are on guard against. A good way to keep people off guard is to try to create a lot of false doubt and get them to believe that the Holocaust didn't happen and is peddled by Jews in order to create false sympathy.

              David Irving is an interesting example. Until Holocaust denial really took off, he fully believed in the Holocaust. His shtick up till that point was to try to create equivalency, i.e. sure the Holocaust was bad, but look at all the bad things the allies did too. But after the Holocaust denial movement really got underway, Irving understood the political ramifications and signed up.

              •  that may be true (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                The House

                But again, you're using an example and justifying your generalization.  This method of proving your point is invalid.
                I'm not sticking up for deniers by any means.  But by lumping everyone together and assuming their motive is uniform, you can lose credibility.  

                •  The hard core deniers (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TiaRachel, blueness, jhritz

                  are motivated by the politics of their hate. Maybe the small timers we get around here are motivated by shear ignorance more than anything. But the ultimate source of the bullshit propaganda that those small timers peddle is the hard core deniers who know exactly what they are doing. It is the ignorant that the hard core types are counting on.

                  •  i agree (0+ / 0-)

                    At the same time, I think stifling conversation about holocaust gives more ammo to the politically-motivated deniers.  They gain legitimacy by pointing out that if something is true then how come we can't talk about it.  You know what I mean?

                    •  The problem is (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pumpkinlove, blueness, zemblan, jhritz

                      there have been a lot of shitty diaries about the Holocaust around here lately. I'm not sure that that speaks negatively of the left so much as it speaks to the level of ignorance generally. Personal experience has shown me there is way more of this crap coming from the right than the left.

                      And to be fair, the 'Holocaust Hucksterism' diary was not a denial diary, it was a different type of stupidity. And it was written by a formerly banned troll who acknowledges he is really a Libertarian more than anything.

                      Anyone can post here. There is no vetting process until after the fact. So I'm not in a panic yet about what those kinds of diaries say about this site. But it is disappointing to me when I consider what such diaries say about people in general.

                      •  people in general (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        The House

                        Well unfortunately, people in general are bigots and racists.  The fact that such diaries are in the minority on dKos means we're better than average, but not perfect.

                      •  Are you equating (0+ / 0-)

                        holding libertarian ideas with being trollish? Because if so, that doesn't seem right. I am gathering that the word "Libertarian" seems to have started to get from some I have seen here the same treatment as the word "Liberal" has gotten in the MSM. I hold to liberal ideas. Am I then a Liberal?Are Democrats hostile to libertarian ideas? Or are some Democrats confusing Libertarian partisans who may hold questionable opinions with common sense libertarian free-thinkers?

                        Change is inevitable, embrace it.

                        by The House on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:36:30 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  the problem is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jhritz

              ... that nobody denies the entire Holocaust. But Holocaust deniers deny as much of it as they think they can get away with.

              Holocaust denial is a movement with a set of common core ideas, the three main ones being (a) that Hitler didn't order the genocide of the Jews, (b) there were no homicidal gas chambers, and (c) that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is X, where X is the smallest number they think they can get away with in any given setting.

              To say, "I think the Holocaust happened, but only one million Jews were killed" is like saying, "I think Apollo 11 flew, but it only few to Pittsburgh."

    •  I got to this part: (27+ / 0-)

      The use of the phrase "Zionazi" alone is enough to qualify as anti-Semitism in this Jews' book.

      and I thought "That qualifies as anti-Semitism and just plain assholedness, in my book."

      Thanks for the diary.  Those comments made me flinch.  I hadn't seen them yet.


      Big, bold, beautiful beasts seeking humans for cyber-help. Click here.

      by Page van der Linden on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:53:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  From a thread below (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geekesque

        a comment with a suggestion.  Here's a copy:

        A front pager wrote something (3+ / 0-)

        once that I think might serve well as a disclaimer on the front page:

        "Diaries are like letters to the editor, they do not necessarily reflect the views of the management."

        Sites like the one you linked will find the diaries and comments without this diary.  The ones that are not hidden can be googled.  

        The real question has to do with users who consistantly uprate anti-Semitic posts, causing them to become unhidden.  

        That just happened on my latest diary, where the uprater brought back the third thread of a user who'd reposted the same comment that had been hidden two times.

        Adam B: Perhaps that's something that might bear scrutiny; if a particular post gets lots of tr's, and the post gets unhidden through uprate, maybe the post needs to be assessed for offensiveness.  

        Probably some kind of algorithm could be applied, leading to an admin review if it happens enough.

        That's not censorship as much as giving the admins a quick way to review problem posts that are unhidden to see if they should remain hidden.

        by jhritz on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:47:33 PM PST

        I don't know if that will work, but it was all I could think of.

    •  Ummmm.... (25+ / 0-)

      Aren't comments troll-rated so they won't be seen and read by the site readers at large?   Now you have immortalized them all for public viewing.   I think it says a lot against the point of your diary that these comments were all roundly troll-rated outta sight at the time they were posted.

      Not Jewish, not anti-Semitic, either.  But I do sympathize with the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and the occupied territories.  

      •  look again (10+ / 0-)

        Not all the posts cited in the diary were sent to HC. Many, many anti-semitic posts on this site never reach HCs, or, once there, they are removed by upraters.

        •  garbage gets by all the time (10+ / 0-)

          Here's a current example. Over on a dying thread, a Kossack has posted a comment containing a link so people may purchase Henry Ford's The International Jew: The World's Problem. Now why would he do that? Because he's an anti-semitic holocaust-denier. And a proud member of this community.

          •  Not representative (7+ / 0-)

            of the DKos community, even still.  I never saw that.  Not until you have given it publicity here on this diary thread.   It may well have scrolled off unnoticed.

            Perhaps it hasn't been troll-rated into oblivion because few have read the diary.  BFD.

            I'm sure there are thousands of comments every week that I never see, because I simply don't have the time to read every single diary that gets posted here.    So just because I haven't troll-rated or objected to any overt anti-Semitic commentary here at DKos, doesn't make me anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic, either.

            You are painting the Kossack community with far too broad of a brush, imo.   We get lots of dross posted here, much of it against our political viewpoints, sometimes we go at it against each other's left-leaning viewpoints.   We just learn to stay focussed on what interests us, what we like as valid commentary, try to minimize the trolling and the hateful baiting, and to enjoy the best of what Daily Kos represents and has to offer.

            "Holocaust Deniers" are such a tiny minority here, if they exist at all, that they barely register on the site radar, obviously.   If you see a comment that is egregiously offensive to you, troll-rate it and write to Kos or ct or any of the F/P-ers regarding your concerns, is my recommendation.

            But endlessly browbeating the Kossack community at large for the sins of the very few seems like an exercise in futility for you, in my opinion.    I've reviewed the "evidence" you've presented in this diary, and I still disagree with the conclusions proferred.

            And it's not because I hate the Joos.  NOT.

            •  ummm . . . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pumpkinlove

              But endlessly browbeating the Kossack community at large for the sins of the very few seems like an exercise in futility for you, in my opinion. I've reviewed the "evidence" you've presented in this diary, and I still disagree with the conclusions proferred.

              Sorry, but in responding to me, you were not responding to the diarist: I didn't write this diary.

              However, I'm curious as to how much "evidence" you might require. I have read hundreds of posts, all unhidden, on this site over the last nine months that fit the definition of anti-semitism as set forth by the EUMC, an arm of the EU. If they were assembled all together in one diary, would you find them of significance? Or would they, too, be dismissed?

              Of course there's also quibbling with the EUMC's definition. That has been a tactic of some of the more egregious violators of it.  

              •  Still insufficient "evidence" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rusty Pipes, anonymousredvest18

                First of all, I may have been answering your post, somewhat.  But when I began to speak to the diarist, it's obvious I was speaking to the diarist.   I'm sure most got that.  It's a common style here at DKos.

                Secondly, just because you allege you've read "hundreds" of posts "all unhidden" at Daily Kos that you maintain "fit the definition of anti-semitism", still doesn't equate with the meta hate that this diary purports to be castigating the Kossack community about.   Even if you "assembled them all into one diary" [emphasis mine], that would be miniscule compared to the hundreds of thousands of comments and thousands of diaries that pass through Daily Kos each year.  Miniscule.

                So, no, I still disagree that any of the broad-brushed swipes at the Kossack community here as being hatefully anti-semitic and "Holocaust deniers" (ferchrissake) are any kind of valid assessment of any prevailing attitude on this site.  

                Just give it rest.   There is so much more that we can all be putting our energy toward that are really serious problems the DKos community can be helping to address.   It's all in what you emphasize, imo.

              •  Don't ya know (0+ / 0-)

                we Israeli supporters are too "sensitive" and can't properly determine what is and isn't anti-Semitism.

                President of the Elders of Zion Chapter 112

                by Pumpkinlove on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:59:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The problem is that they have turned an entire (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              another American, blueness

              area of discussion--Israel/Palestine and by extension overall mideast policy on occasion--into a sewer.

              Those with weak stomachs just skip the topic entirely.

      •  Yes, but the recurrence of such comments (5+ / 0-)

        is disturbing. Also, they continue to be available to TUs.

    •  I'll sign up to be on your security detail (6+ / 0-)

      Dr. Weisel has one (they're tough SOB's too) but he thought he didn't need them around the clock. It makes me sick that he and his wife do now. Anybody thinking about getting sketchy with either of them from here on out gets what they've got coming to them.

      This is like ending racism though. It doesn't end. It always finds a home in the hearts of deeply ugly people. The best that the rest of us can do is jump hard, with both feet, on those people when they think they've found an audience.

      I'm sorry dhonig, Jay, and so many others here. I avoided all those threads because they always devolve into illogical (what am I, T'Pol?) I/P crisis debates. Been there, done that. I had no idea that anything even approaching Holocaust denial was propagating in those threads. I'll keep my eyes peeled and jump in from here on out.

      Good people shouldn't have to fight alone.

      Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

      by Kimberley on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:31:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you are SO not making this up (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CalifSherry, blueness, dmsarad

      Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out.

    •  Troll rating (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geekesque, Pumpkinlove, jhritz

      Important diary, dhonig: I'd hoped someone would come along and unpack this phenomenon. Not having the stomach for it or the time/discipline/chops to track down all this hate speech, I had not been paying attention to these threads.

      The bright side is the troll ratings. Thanks for the heads up: I'll start paying attention and, so long as I maintain T/U status, I'll check in on a few of the users you quote. Hmm - does that make me a target for retalitory troll rating. Hope some of you have my back.. The bright side is the troll ratings.

      Thanks for the heads up: I'll start paying attention and, so long as I maintain T/U status, I'll check in on a few of the users you quote. Hmm - does that make me a target for retalitory troll rating. Hope some of you have my back.

    •  This diary is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes

      Deliberately misleading.

      You've quoted a mere handful of comments and then pasted them together to try to construct a case that they are somehow representative of some kind of overall trend in sentiment on dailykos.  How many comments did you quote?  10?  15?  And it's supposedly representative of the sentiments of the hundreds of people who comment on these diaries?  Do you honestly think that argument has any validity?  

      You've succeeded in establishing one thing and one thing only: that the people you've quoted espouse the views expressed in the quotes.  Trying to extrapolate anything more about a population from a small, deliberately cherry-picked sample of individuals is a textbook example of intellectual dishonesty.

      If I made a claim that there was a recent tendency for bags of M&Ms to have a disproportionate amount of RED M&Ms in them, and then tried to prove that claim by taking a half empty bag, pouring a bunch of RED M&Ms in it, and then presenting it as "evidence" of my claim, you and anyone else with two brain-cells would see through it for the bullshit it is.  You've basically done the same in this diary.

      You are either a fool who knows nothing about how to measure trends or how to extract information about populations based on samples, or you are a dishonest individual who is making a concerted attempt to attack people, just for fun.

      "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

      by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 06:59:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Try this search (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pumpkinlove, zemblan

        If you can see hidden comments, here's a search using the criteria "Jew" and "Hidden Comment" that produced:

        35,964 results.

        Not saying they are all anti-Semitic, but, based on quick browsing (and then a trip to the head to throw up), way too many of them are.  

        Now, they are hidden, which points to the self-policing working; though we don't know how many got through without being noticed or got unhidden because of uprating.  But... that still leaves:

        35,964 results.

        Numbers are games.

        One is too many.

        •  Good start (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes, hypersphere01

          The next step would be to break down the comments by date and calculate the mean number per day.  You would need to do a similar calculation for overall comments made on the site as a whole.  Then you look at the ratio of the mean number of anti-semitic comments to the mean number of total comments.

          An even better approach would be to measure the number of users making these comments and compare that to the total number of users on the site.  This would be a more accurate measure because it controls for the fact that individual users can post hundreds of comments in a day, making it look as if more people hold a certain view than really do.

          "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

          by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:00:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  PS (3+ / 0-)

          I almost forgot.  As you acknowledged, you would also need to weed out the comments that were hidden that were not anti-semitic, but were hidden for other reasons.  For example, I noticed the uid "sderot5" in your search results ... someone whose comments are regularly hidden for bigotry against Muslims, not Jews.  It would inflate the results to include such users.

          "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

          by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:05:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Selective thinking (0+ / 0-)

            games are still games.  Like the commenter that stated in the title "now I deny the Holocaust."

            The point the diarist was making still stands.  

            There are problem comments and commentators.

            My point is that one is too many.

            Of any type of bigotry.

            If you don't get that, then that's you're issue.

            donesky.

            •  I'm talking about whether or not the problem (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, hypersphere01

              can to any extent be seen as representative of a trend.  That is what the diarist is suggesting, after all, that it is a trend.  This is not a "selective thinking game" but rather basic logical reasoning.  To make the kind of generalizations that the diarist makes requires some type of evidence that goes beyond the anecdotal, but anecdotes are all he/she has got.  To point to a handful of cherry-picked comments and then say that it's somehow some huge problem that inflicts the entire community is irresponsible and dishonest.  The diarist should back up their assertions with solid data or else be prepared to suck it up when they get called out for piss-poor reasoning.

              "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

              by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:37:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A suggestion (0+ / 0-)

                Since you're the one who requires more proof, why don't you go through all 30,000 plus comments and tell us exactly how many are not anti-semitic, or anti-Muslim or anti-anything, since any bigotry is the problem and since you seem to think the examples provided are not trend-setting enough for you.

                For my part, the dairy rings true.

                Now, as mentioned above, I was donesky.  

                End of conversation, please.

              •  Show me where (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jhritz

                statistical exactitude is required elsewhere on Daily Kos, and perhaps I will accept this argument, that a claim there are anti-Semites on Daily Kos is only valid with a double-blind study or certainty within two standard deviations.  No?  I didn't think so.  Or perhaps you just don't think the amount of hate described above is a problem, for there must be some previously unidentified base level of hate before it actually qualifies as repugnant.  Sorry, pal, but I really don't feel I am obligated to spend days, weeks, or years, digging through every comment in Daily Kos to make a point here, and it's pretty obvious more than a couple of other people felt the same way.  Yes, anecdotes are all I've got, because that was the basis of my diary- anecdotal evidence of anti-Semitism on Daily Kos. At no point did I claim to be putting together a statistical analysis.  And there are enough anecdotes, in this case anti-Semitic tirades, to make me (and plenty of others, to judge by comments here) pretty darned uncomfortable.  Almost everything written on Daily Kos, whether on anti-Semitism, or Israel, or Hilary Clinton, or Barak Obama, or clean energy, or damn near anything else, is based on anecdotes.  It's called conversation, blogging.  Look at the front page.  What do you see?  Diaries filled with anecdotes, and very little statistical analysis.  

                Look at the recommended diaries.  Possible Disaster in Baghdad is purely anecdotal, and does not have any sort of statistical analysis, including the number of dead AS COMPARED TO the number still living, or the number of bombs at intersections versus the number of bombless intersections, or any such idiocy.  Media Try to Bar Access to US Capitol, by David Sirota, was one long anecdote, completely devoid of analysis of other media persons seeking credentials, the number of print, radio, and television reporters actually allowed into the capitol, or anything else of the sort. DEMAND these diaries be deleted.  Call the diarists fools, morons, poltroons.  The Front Page has an entry entitled "Pace and the Proof Against Iran."  Again, no statistics, just anecdotes.  Tell BarbinMD how she is DELIBERATELY MISLEADING the Kos community.  

                Get it, asshat?  This is a blog, not a scientific journal.  If you are comfortable with the hate above, be it 1 comment, 10 comments, or even 27 comments (and who could have expected you to count that terribly high, after all), then you are unworthy of further comment.  If you feel the need to defend the comments, hiding behind a suddenly (and for this diary only) high statistical standard, I suggest you buy a mirror.  

                And if this is how you intend to formulate your legal arguments, I suggest buy a shovel.

                A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

                by dhonig on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 09:37:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't get it do you? (3+ / 0-)

                  You're the one making a claim, so the burden is on you to demonstrate that that claim has some validity.  You have failed to do so by any measure.  

                  DailyKos, as part of the "fact-based" community has always put a high value on accuracy, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," and all that (see DailyKos Diary Guidelines #14).  Well, the evidence you point to to support your claim was cherry-picked, so there's no way to assess whether your assertion has any validity or not.  

                  If you wanted to make an argument that consisted of more than hot air, you could spend a little time and do so by comparing the number of these anti-semitic comments to the number of overall comments made on the site.  As the diarist, that's your responsibility.  Unfortunately, you refuse to live up to this responsibility out of laziness, saying:

                  I really don't feel I am obligated to spend days, weeks, or years, digging through every comment in Daily Kos to make a point here,

                  Well, yes, you actually are obligated to do so, provided you expect your argument to stand up to even the most rudimentary criticism.  

                  "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

                  by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:11:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You don't get it, do you? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jhritz

                    nowhere did I claim this was a statistical analysis. Rather, it was my observation, hence anecdotal by definition.  Your insistence on stalking this ONE diary for statistical exactitude makes me wonder whether you actually have underlying issues with the content.  Perhaps you are disturbed at the thought there could be anti-Semitism on Daily Kos.  If so, kudos to you for your naive optimism- I wish you well as you grow up.  Or perhaps you can't stand to see any criticism of Daily Kos, having arrived so recently and still having stars in your eyes.  Again, good luck with that whole growing up thing. Or perhaps, just perhaps, the whole thing strikes a bit close to home. Whatever it is, you have made whatever point you believe valid, and from here forward are just demonstrating a comical immaturity.

                    A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

                    by dhonig on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:15:02 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This diary (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hypersphere01

                      makes a claim that there is a trend that is occurring on this website.  The evidence you point to to support this claim was cherry-picked, thus making it completely useless as evidence.  This is a dishonest, and anti-intellectual form of argument.  

                      This is the exact same technique that Limbaugh and O'reilly use when they argue that the mainstream media has a liberal bias: they point to articles from The Nation, or to Air America, or to Olberman's special comments, and try to extrapolate from that that the whole media has a "liberalism problem."  Never mind that the examples they give are the exceptions to the rule rather than the other way 'round.

                      You have meticulously replicated this shameful brand of snake-oil salesmanship in your diary.  I do not deny that there are anti-semitic posts on dailykos, just as I do not deny that there are liberals in the mainstream media.  That is not what is at issue.  What is at issue is the extent to which it is representative of the sentiments expressed on this site.

                      What is so contemptible is your transparently disingenuous exercise in tarring an entire community based on a handful of extremist comments, particlarly in light of the fact that you have no clue whatsoever the extent to which such comments represent any significant trend.  For all you, I, or anyone else knows, anti-semitic posts on dailykos could actually be declining in number.  You could easily find out, one way or the other, but you choose not to, perhaps out of simple laziness, perhaps out of fear that your precious argument might be proven to be fallacious.  If the answer is the former, then you are simply incompetent at thinking in a critical manner, if the latter, you are a broker of dishonesty.  Either way, it is shameful.

                      "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

                      by Balam on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:46:44 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are completely full of shit (1+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        jhritz
                        Hidden by:
                        mattes

                        and I am utterly tired of your accusatory attitude.  Yes, I wrote a diary, and diaries (in case you hadn't heard) express the opinion of the diarist.  I have noticed a trend.  No, I did not do a statistically valid survey, nor is any such thing required on Daily Kos.  

                        Your repeated accusations are entirely unjustified, as well as intellectually dishonest.  ANY collection of comments would be "cherry picked."  Otherwise, EVERY comment on Daily Kos would have to be included.  Yes, I picked anti-Semitic comments, because this was a diary about anti-Semitic comments. If you believe that to be cherry picking, then you are simply a moron, nothing less.  Sorry, but repeated stupidity does not make for intelligence.

                        To go from there to comparing me to Limbaugh or O'Reilly is only a trite personal attack, and not worthy of further response.  

                        You seem to have a terrible burr under your saddle over this particular diary. I'm starting to wonder if there isn't some more nefarious basis for your attacks.

                        As for your claim that I could easily determine whether anti-Semitic comments are on the rise or decline here, I disagree, unless you know of some secret search that magically identifies anti-Semitic comments throughout Daily Kos.  Otherwise, you are just a damned liar.  And with that, I am done with you.  I am perfectly willing to rest upon my long history here, my diaries and comments, my recommendations, and the people here who know me, to speak to my honor, my honesty, and the validity (or vapidity) of any comparison of me to Limbaugh or O'Reilly.  Your opinion, begun with accusation and followed with attack, is meaningless to me.

                        A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

                        by dhonig on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:17:26 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  DELIBERATELY misleading?! (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        jhritz
        Hidden by:
        mattes

        And the basis for the slanderous attack?  Please do tell.  And please provide the basis for you accusation that the comments were "cherry picked." Otherwise, and I do mean this sincerely, go fuck yourself.  And you can do it with red MMs, if you wish.  This "handful" of comments represents a miniscule portion of what shows upon Daily Kos, taken mostly just from the last month, and from a few diaries.  And from this you stoop to personal attacks, slanders, and insults?  And this from some pissant "attorney in training?"  Good luck with that, for if this is the best you can do, I seriously doubt you will get past the "training" part. and by the way, I quoted 27 comments.  I you can't count as high as 27, I expect your future is severely limited.

        A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

        by dhonig on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:17:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Charming (3+ / 0-)

          Maybe this might help you ... but I doubt it.

          From wikipedia:

          Cherry-Picking:

          In the literal case of harvesting cherries, or any other fruit, the picker would be expected to only select the ripest and healthiest fruits. An observer who only sees the selected fruit may thus wrongly conclude that most, or even all, of the fruit is in such good condition.

          Thus, cherry picking is used metaphorically to indicate the act of pointing at individual cases that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases that may contradict that position.

          For example, opponents of safety belts often cite rare cases in which car accident victims were strangled, or trapped, by a safety belt, whereas accident statistics suggest that they much more commonly save the life of the passenger (unless used improperly).

          "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

          by Balam on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:22:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Uprated to counter tr abuse n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  Look, if Kos can ban people with 9/11 conspiracy (17+ / 0-)

    theories, then removing Holocaust deniers and I/P war trolls makes ever more sense.  The signal to noise ratio has been getting ridiculous.

    And when will DK4.0 recognize previously banned IPs (not I/Ps) so we can see the last of the shergald troll?

    Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

    by madhaus on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:51:07 AM PST

  •  There is a double standard, for whatever reason. (24+ / 0-)

    Judeophobia/anti-semitism is treated different than anti-black, anti-gay, anti-woman, or even anti-Muslim sentiment.

    I personally don't know why there isn't something along the lines of a "Three strikes and you're out policy" regarding this stuff.  One strike would be enough for Holocaust deniers.

  •  I am not going to place the lives of one (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, greenearth

    Country, or people, over or above that of another. The name calling goes both ways. In my World there are no difference in people. I will also  see injustice and call on it, no matter what Country it comes from or no matter what peoples. When its wrong, its wrong,no matter who does it.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:52:13 AM PST

  •  Well, yes and no. (20+ / 0-)

    When this community decides to troll-rate a comment, it's because we believe that it represents a viewpoint so noxious that we believe it should be hidden from public view so that it cannot be taken as representative of this community.

    By collecting all those posts above, you make it easy for those who want to tar the left as anti-Semitic to do so.  I respect the point you're trying to make, but I wish you hadn't done so in this fashion.

  •  Also, I/P debates would be a lot more productive (16+ / 0-)

    if we could have them without all that damn hatred in the air.

    I myself have deep criticisms of Israel and our policy towards it.  But, there's just so much nasty shit being thrown against it here that I feel compelled to come down against the haters.

  •  This is not a representative sample... (8+ / 0-)

    ..though. Nearly all of those comments were troll-rated into hidden comment territory. This means, as a whole, we find those comments despicable.

    •  In part that is true, and (7+ / 0-)

      in part they were just the easiest to find.  What is disturbing is that (a) some got recommended, and (b) people felt the environment here one that welcomed the comments, hence they made them.  Something is just plain out of kilter, and that is bad.

      A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

      by dhonig on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:57:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are over 100,000 people (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sockpuppet, buddabelly, Chaoticfluffy

        in this community.  A few of those hateful comments received recommends.  Most of them were troll-rated into oblivion.

        There are bad people who come here to spread their disgusting anti-Semitism, but I doubt they convince the larger community of anything more than their own bigotry.

        Would I be happier if that shit weren't posted here?  Probably.  But at the same time, it's probably good that we see this stuff every once in a while just so we don't forget here in our liberal compound that such sickening thoughts abound in the real world.

        I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. -- Thomas Jefferson [-4.25, -5.33]

        by GTPinNJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:06:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not beofre they casued damaged or succeeded (5+ / 0-)

      om hijacking the diary.

      I promised my family they won't see me dragged from my home by men in black, dangling off ropes from helicopters.

      by Junglered1 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:24:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As a more or less neurtral observer in this (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tiponeill, curmudgiana, zemblan, LynneK

    Insofar as I don't comment or respond to the I/P diaries because they are too emotionally charged and very little of what is said is worthwhile. I find the comments that are made about Israel and the Jews very disturbing. I certainly don't feel that Israel is without sin, but I think that their situation is not an easy one to operate in and so they need to be given some benefit of the doubt in dealing with terrorism.

    I also feel, but to a lesser degree that the charge of anti-semitism is used too frequently on this site. When this sort of charge is used too frequently, it begins to lose its effectiveness. I would like to see more refutation based on historical fact, rather than falling back to ad hominem attacks. It doesn't matter whether the poster is converted, uninformed and/or neutral observers are more likely to be swayed by facts.

    •  Respectfully disagree (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adam B, wiscmass, Pumpkinlove, blueness, jhritz

      I have observed several times that anti-Semitism has overused far less than the prophylactic "don't call me an anti-Semite."  

      A cartoon is worth a thousand words.

      by dhonig on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:03:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that's because (8+ / 0-)

        "You're an anti-semite" is a pretty harsh accusation. For some reason, it seems to pack more of a punch than "You're sexist" or "You're racist." I really don't know why, but it seems that way to me.

        I've seen a lot of people asking questions (not even comments or declarations; QUESTIONS asking for clarity) that result in those people being called anti-semitic.

        It's an ever-increasing trend. Calling someone an anti-semite leads to people starting comments and diaries with qualifiers like "Don't call me an anti-semite," which makes people wary of the comment or diary, etc. Or vice versa.

        /shrug

        I don't think it's constructive to get into a "More people get accused of anti-semitism" vs. "More people say 'Don't call me an anti-semite.'"

        I think it'd be better for everyone to see how emotionally charged an issue is and not leap to judgements about anything.

        We're oft to blame in this--tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage and pious action we do sugar o'er the devil himself.

        by TheBlaz on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:10:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps if a front pager announced that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zemblan

        the problem is under serious consideration with a decision anticipated in the near future, you might agree to delete the diary. If satisfactory action is not taken, you can repost it.

  •  Lose Your Next to Last Paragraph (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    Holocaust denial is indefensible without regard to its effects on partisan politics.

    Conflating the intellectual and moral inadmissibility of Holocaust denial with the empirically suspect claim that 2% of the population is "a big part of that equation" (i.e. getting Democrats elected) detracts from the very real substance of your larger argument.

  •  As someone who has seen many of these comments... (11+ / 0-)

    ...(hell, one of them is addressed directly to me), I can't help but to feel like if you felt that this required action, the superior choice would have been to email them to an administrator and to request the warning and/or banning of the posters in question.  I'm not sure this is a situation that the community as a whole is capable of handling any better than it does; if your feeling is that it needs firmer action, take it up with an administrator.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:18:09 PM PST

  •  To make criticism seem to be anti-Israel (8+ / 0-)

    rather than anti-Semitic, many people will say, "I have no problem with Jews, it is the insert comment here policies of Israel that I don't like". But they go on to state the formula Israel bad, Jews=Israel, therefore all Jews are bad.

  •  An actual post from st0rmfr0nt.0rg: (16+ / 0-)

    Something that might be a little uplifting: This same topic came up on a leftist/liberal forum that I post on sometimes just to interject our point of view and you wouldn't believe how many comments were left by confirmed liberal posters saying the same thing we're saying here today! Comment after comment spoke of the evils of AIPAC and the Israeli lobby. It was great to see people of every political persuasion finally waking up to what Israel really is. Here's a link to the article with the comments posted at the bottom on another link. This site changes it's stories daily so this might only be good for another day or so, but it's refreshing to see that so much of America, regardless of our differences on other issues, is coming together and getting it when it comes to Israel and the Israeli lobby in this country.

    •  I don't give a damn what Stormfront, or any other (4+ / 0-)

      group says about AIPAC. I have read and studied enough, and having received many of their mailings over the years, have determined that their right-wing alliance with Likud (with their PNAC agenda, and Iran attack plans) is not good for Israel, and in my opinion, liberal Jews should not be supporting them. I know I sure as hell don't!

      So I don't give a shit what Stormfront says. Even a a broken clock is right twice a day.

      NO MORE DYNASTIES! No more triangulation! No more lies! No more war! No more corporatists! ELECT PROGRESSIVES NOW!

      by Hornito on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:20:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The rhetoric should be at a place where (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hornito, blueness, zemblan

        neither St0rmfr0nt nor LGF people feel welcome or that they're on the same wavelength.

        •  It's a fine line when it comes to certain... (3+ / 0-)

          issues. I think that one would be stifling discussion to oppressive levels if you were to make rules that kept everyone from discussing certain issues.

          We have to be careful here.

          NO MORE DYNASTIES! No more triangulation! No more lies! No more war! No more corporatists! ELECT PROGRESSIVES NOW!

          by Hornito on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:44:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think the subject should be off-limits. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hornito, curmudgiana, zemblan

            I do think that a clean-up of the hate-mongers would improve the overall tone.

            Either that, or have a special set of rules for I/P discussions, i.e. no comparing Palestinians or Israelis to Nazis, etc etc.

            •  With all due respect, after seeing what... (3+ / 0-)

              happened at DU, where all I/P discussion was (is?, haven't been there in a long time) moderated, and virtually all threads "anti-Israel" were/are deleted, I am not sure I like the idea, because then it depends on who has the "power" with Admin.

              My libertarian tendencies simply don't want to embrace more "rules". Sufficient, should be being able to report blatant "deniers" and anti-Semites, and then having Admin., should they agree, act on them by banning.

              NO MORE DYNASTIES! No more triangulation! No more lies! No more war! No more corporatists! ELECT PROGRESSIVES NOW!

              by Hornito on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:11:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are plenty of anti-Israel threads there. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan

                What's gone are the flamefests between the GIYUS types and the "ZIONAZI PIGS" types.

                •  I keep seeing "anti-Israel", "anti-Israel.".... (3+ / 0-)

                  I think sometimes people don't take enough care to say what they are actually thinking. They are not against the people of Israel, but against their government. I think everyone should take more care to point this out, and clarify what they are against.

                  If they're  against "Israel" then I have a problem with them, because that means they're against all the babies, liberals, and others who don't have a freaking thing to do with the government that currently rules there.

                  NO MORE DYNASTIES! No more triangulation! No more lies! No more war! No more corporatists! ELECT PROGRESSIVES NOW!

                  by Hornito on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:22:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Anti-Israel" is short for "critical of Israel." (0+ / 0-)

                    There's plenty of criticism there.  

                  •  Hmmm (0+ / 0-)

                    I would say that most their critiism is Anti Israeli and not anti "the Israeli Government." Because many of these people do not believe that Israel has an implicit right to defend itself or that when a suicide bomber kills israels "it is what Israel deserves." And often times they claim that Hezbollah and Hmas are legitimate "resistance groups." THey are essentially condoning or in some cases welcoming harm to innocent civilians and not the "government or army."

            •  Bradley Burston's rules (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              howardx, james risser

              The guiding principles of the talkback forum for this article will be mutual respect and openness to dialogue. Participants, even if they rule out, dismiss or oppose coexistence, must, within the confines of this forum, practice it.

              Censorship will be unapologetic.

              Political orientation will have absolutely no bearing on whether a comment is posted or rejected.

              The following will be grounds for deletion:

              1. Racist remarks, as well as slurs on the basis of religion, ethnicity and gender.
              1. Use of the terms Nazi, Hitler, to describe the actions and policies of Israelis, Palestinians or other parties to the Israel-Arab conflict.
              1. Disparaging remarks, personal attacks, vulgarities and profanities directed at other participants in the forum.
              1. Advocacy of violence against individuals or religious, ethnic or racial groups, including statements which may be construed as urging attacks on leaders, officials, security forces or civilians.

              Of course, he operates as the censor.

      •  We might be in better shape, if (5+ / 0-)

        criticism of AIPAC focused on criticizing the substance of its positions rather than imputations of treason or impropriety in AIPAC -- an organization of American citizens -- seeking to influence public policy, i.e., exercising their First Amendment right to petitiion for redress of grievances.

        •  This is a tough one... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          anonymousredvest18, james risser

          Here's why:

          AIPAC, JINSA, and other groups overtly, loudly, and publicly supported the Iraq invasion, as they are now doing with Iran.

          There are those of us who think attacking a country without just cause, and lying to our nation about it, is treason.

          AIAPC joined with the Bush regime to push and sell this war on false pretenses. Hence the "treason" meme with respect to AIPAC, and I can't say I disagree.

          AIPAC is not what it used to be, when I used to donate and participate. They have been taken over by right-wing Likudnicks and Benny lovers, and no liberal Jews should be supporting them.

          Then, there the matter of someone like me, who has family in the military. AIPAC and JINSA are again ringing the war bells, possibly putting my family at risk of being killed. Sorry, they are my enemies now, and will be as long as they push unjustified wars.

          NO MORE DYNASTIES! No more triangulation! No more lies! No more war! No more corporatists! ELECT PROGRESSIVES NOW!

          by Hornito on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:18:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  An Indictment is Not A Conviction (5+ / 0-)

          ....but since the former head of the organization and a senior associate go on trial on June 4, 2007 for improperly handling of classified information including its delivery to an unnamed foreign government, a case in which Pentagon Analyst Larry Franklin -- who worked for Douglas Feith and Paul Wolfowitz in the DOD OSP -- was convicted and received a 12.5-year prison sentence, it seems a bit much to ask that all public comments regarding AIPAC focus solely on their policy positions and studiously avoid any imputation of treason or impropriety.

          The apparent expansion of the FBI probe into an examination of Jane Harman's succssful efforts to induce major AIPAC donors to lobby Nancy Pelosi in favor of Harman's (unsuccessful) bid to become chair of the House Intelligence Committee also raises questions, not only about the policy positions taken by AIPAC, but about the breadth of its influence and the propriety of the tactics it uses to exert that influence.

          Unless of course you're suggesting that we follow Scott McClellan's lead and "Decline to comment on this continuing investigation as it makes its way through the legal system."

  •  Hate always destroys productive debate. (10+ / 0-)

    It presence is toxic; a valid troll-rate.

    The door swings both ways, don't sink down too far.
    Attack their ideas and not who they are.

    "A problem has been detected and Bush has been shut down to prevent damage to your country."

    by ArgusRun on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:23:07 PM PST

  •  I can't tell you how RELIEVED I am you wrote this (12+ / 0-)

    There are some regular animals on here, some even say they're Jewish.  If they are, I'd like to know what their fathers did to them that made them hate themselves.  That's rhetorical, becuase I don't really care.

    You've linked to several of them and quoted a few directly and  I've seen some of them in the recent Elie Wiesel diaires.

    It's sad and dangerous.

    It's one thing to critics a government for doing something you don't believe in, and believe me, Israel isn't immune from that in my book, but it's quite another to watch pigs like _______ (fill in you own blank) do what they do (ranting, hijacking diaries, etc.).

    Thank again for this and DON'T CHANGE A THING!  

    I promised my family they won't see me dragged from my home by men in black, dangling off ropes from helicopters.

    by Junglered1 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:23:08 PM PST

  •  This is all I'm going to say (4+ / 0-)

    I agree; some of the things people say around here are nothing but racist garbage.

    However, as someone who has uprated a few of those comments you mentioned, it's solely because sometimes people say things that are racist garbage AND they also have a point that isn't entirely racist. The point may just be racistly worded, or the point may itself be an interesting conversation piece if nothing else.

    The hidden comments are hidden for a reason. The ones you argue should be hidden but aren't, however, mostly seem to be at least worthy of public examination.

    •  Well. . . (6+ / 0-)

      can you honestly say that you would have uprated the same comments if they'd been targeted at blacks, Muslims, Catholics, or Hispanics?  If so, then you're acting out of principle.  If not, you're acting out of bigotry.

      Your "recommend" on a comment is an endorsement of that comment.  It's always been treated that way here at dKos.  So, if you want to stand behind those comments in their entirety, expect to be treated as if you'd made them yourself.

      Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

      by LarryInNYC on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:08:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would have... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LynneK

        ...uprated the few that I did either way.

        However, a recommend was NEVER an endorsement of a comment. I recommend things I completely disagree with all the time just because someone made a valid point.

        In that same ideal, if a point simply could have been phrased better but spawns an otherwise interesting discussion, it's worth keeping unhidden.

    •  The change in the rating system (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenskeeper, dennisl, curmudgiana

      Some people give a recommend ("4") to a comment that they previously would have given a "3".

      "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." - Harry Truman

      by Rusty Pipes on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:41:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There's a slippery-slope in operation. (8+ / 0-)

    There are a fair number of Kossacks who are deeply disturbed, and rightly so, at the plight of the Palestinian people.

    Many of them have turned their support of Palestinians into a sort-of vehement hatred of Israel and therefore present the I-P situation as one strictly of villains and victims.

    Because AIPAC has significant clout they therefore also castigate AIPAC (which is as it should be), but sometimes conflate AIPAC with Jews in general and also slide into the idea that because AIPAC has significant clout it essentially runs the US government.

    We thus end up with, among a limited number of posters, this equation:

    Jews + AIPAC = Zionist control of US government.

    Which, in the parlance of Stormfront, is Zionist Occupied Government (ZOG) of America.

    I have no answers for this problem.

    I just really, really don't like it.

    "I think the Iraqi people owe the the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W. Bush

    by Karmafish on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:54:39 PM PST

  •  Hidden comments are hidden for a reason. (5+ / 0-)
  •  holocaust deniers 9/11 conspiracy theorists (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dvo, TiaRachel, zemblan, LynneK, jhritz

    I wonder what proportion of the holocaust deniers also think that 9/11 was an "inside job" propogated by the "neo con jews". These anti-semites get free reign to say the most hateful and divisive things. Now, it is one thing if you are using thoughtful evidence to make a point that is not p.c. But that's not what is going on here. People are making comments that are thoughtless and hateful, comments that we would largely express outrage over if they were said by republicans. Instead of just pushing these comments under the rug, we need to swiftly ban the trolls responsible and get back to productive discussions about how to take back power as democrats.

  •  Amazing how much information is promoted ... (7+ / 0-)

    ... on the Internet.  People google a phrase or topic and are rewarded with a vast number of links to articles, which an uninformed searcher regard as all equally credible. Rarely is the search, link, and reading that culminates in grabbing of a quote and providing a link back to the source preceded with any research to validate the source as long as it supports their preconceived views or opinions.

    The recent diaries about the assault on Elie Wiesel illustrate this with attacks against Wiesel based on his supposed denial or rejection of the Armenian Genocide. The attacks were based on an article in Counterpunch written by someone called Michael Z..  No one bothered to consult an organization like the Armenian National Institute.

    Just like many other actions people make some of this may come down to intent. Some people are clueless that their lack of research and use of such material is a mistake--a mistake that many of the providers of the material count on by the way. Other people find affirmation in discovering a "prominent" source that supports their views. And of course, there are people are fully aware of their source material and use it for the exact purpose of the providers: to promote hate, racism, bigotry through lies and smears to attack and discredit the  ir targets.

    •  Although the Israeli government shamefully (0+ / 0-)

      tends to give in to Turkish pressure, many American Jewish organizations have long recognized the Armenian genocide.

      •  And (4+ / 0-)

        Elie Wiesel has nothing to be ashamed of, since he's the one who did recognized it, signed his name to the petition from the Armenian committee to put pressure on the world and was the keynote speaker at the event for the Armenian committee's announcement.  

        That didn't stop a user here from posting the old canard blaming him for Armenian Genocide denial (on my diary about Elie getting attacked by a Nazi) and then writing his own diary attacking Elie with an implication that he deserved the attack...  

        Even after he'd been corrected with the link to the Armenian National Committee.

        So, what was the guy's agenda?

        Anyway, Elie has recognized the Armenian Genocide, lent his name to the cause and took the time to be the keynote speaker at the announcement.

  •  Very interesting diary (3+ / 0-)

    I'm not surprised to see that these comments exist on DKos.  Any forum that (a) allows anonymity, and (b) has over 100,000 registered users, is likely to record all sorts of crazy shit.

    "The mission of the press is to spread culture while destroying the attention span." -- Karl Kraus

    paralepsis

    by kellogg on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:52:55 PM PST

  •  Markos is quite clear (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhritz

    he has already banned people en masse for recommending 9/11 LIHOP and MIHOP diaries

    http://www.dkosopedia.com/...

    Controversial 9/11 Diaries

    DailyKos accepts that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by agents of Al-Qaeda. It is forbidden to write diaries that:

      1. refer to claims that American, British, Israeli, or any government assisted in the attacks
      2. refer to claims that the airplanes that crashed into the WTC and Pentagon were not the cause of the damage to those buildings or their subsequent collapse

    Authoring or recommending these diaries may result in banning from Daily Kos.

    So the precedence is already there: the mechanism exists to take corrective action. It's really up to Markos.

    Quite frankly, with 5 troll ratings a day, I run out when these awful things are posted. I'd run out if I had 50 donuts to dispense some days. TUs alone cannot stop the large number of ignorant racist  garbage that is posted here.

    It certainly cannot delete diaries, in any case.

    More important perhaps, there are observers who watch here, that keep building the case that dailykos {and other liberal blogs} support hatred of Jews.

    This diary http://www.dailykos.com/...
    ended up on the front page of LGF.

    The examples you list are the ammunition they use; and there's a lot more than just the examples you posted. And the posters you mentioned, some have been here for years, and yet they continue with the bigoted postings.

    Fairly or not, this place is under a microscope. Fairly or not, there is a backlash outside of the dailykos community related exactly to these racist ignorant diaries, postings and upratings of comments.

    The 9/11 LIHOP MIHOP conspiracy theories were deemed detrimental to this community, along with some of the comments in the threads, as well as those who uprated those posts.

    It's about time that something was done about from the top.

    Can we survive furious George's 'Quest For Stupidity'TM?

    by shpilk on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:15:25 AM PST

  •  i can't rec this diary enough (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhritz

    i am saddened, outraged, and sickened by the crap that a good number of individuals here believe passes the muster as to acceptable, relevant and/or accurate communications when it comes to the I/P issue.  neither side as any ownership over innocence; neither side can point a finger with immunity.

    however, among and amidst these vitrioloic and disruptive maelstroms, there are also tho trojan horse posts and diaries.  

    lately,the trojan horses seem less and less worried about how well or poorly they are camouflaged.  

    i've said this before and i will say it again -- these I/P brawls are far too frequent and far too intense and are being instigated by far too wide a cabal (by sock-puppets and zombies) to believe this rash to be just an anomaly of the moment and nothing that won't blow over given some proper guidance and babysitting and good old-fashioned fighting fire with facts...

    i am exhausted from the disrespect displayed and the callous disregard shown and outright meanness exhibited across I/P diaries and posts. if we can't find a way to establish a more mature, evidence-based and respecftful manner of discussing this isusue, we are hoisted upon our own petard.  

    then i fear the issue will be reduced to a mere "fishing expedition" of spite, little more than just an effort to create a little more havoc, gin up a little more rancor, and insinuate a little more distrust over an issue that is tremendously complicated for which a simple answer is neither possible nor likely.  such a reality would be tragic. to us, to the issue, to the democratic candidates in 208 and ultimately to our own collective soul.

    but your diary, to get back on point, was great. thank you.

    _________________________________

    "...Repeat, the dog pisses on the gardenia at midnight. Over."...

    -8.25, -6.15

    by dadanation on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:29:19 AM PST

  •  Wow, look at all those TR's. (0+ / 0-)

    I guess the system does work.  That was your point, right?

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