Skip to main content

Slot this in the "cry me a river" category:

Mrs. Clinton’s advisers do not relish the idea of someone bringing up her 2002 Senate vote at every campaign stop.

Clinton cast a vote that has led to one of the biggest foreign policy disasters in this nation's history -- a vote that even cursory skepticism would've counseled against.

Most of the presidential candidates have gotten the "I fracked up the vote" stuff out of the way last year. It's not the most compelling tack to take -- if their judgment was so poor as to vote for the darn thing, why should we promote them. We talk about DC being a place where people fail upward. Do we really want to encourage that within our own party?

But in any case, pro-war Dems who have unequivocally admitted their mistake don't have to offer tortured justifications for their war. They can honestly take Clinton pollster Mark Penn's advice:

It’s important for all Democrats to keep the word ‘mistake’ firmly on the Republicans and on President Bush. Senator Clinton has been very clear that we, as a party, should keep the focus on Bush — these were his mistakes. Ultimately that’s very important, not just for her, but for the entire Democratic party.

Too bad for Penn that just ain't gonna happen. I have no interest in giving a pass to those Democrats who aided and abetted Bush's mistakes, and I especially have no interest in giving a pass to those who demonstrate Bushian inability to offer self-reflection and admit that mistake. It's not a question of offering an "apology". I want acknowledgment of past mistakes.

These Democrats didn't just enable Bush's war, they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening. And while most of the candidates in the field have come around, Hillary remains the notable exception.

Those who have admitted their mistakes are now free to train their sights on the GOP. It doesn't absolve them from their terrible judgment, but it mitigates it. While it's best to not make a mistake in the first place, it's even worse to compound that mistake by refusing to come to terms with it.

Clinton doesn't have that. And what's worse, she has pretty much lost the window of opportunity to do so. After resisting for so long, she finds herself in the thick of the presidential primary (yes, even a year out) with no room to maneuver. If she suddenly reverses course and decides that yes, she'll take personal responsibility for her vote, it'll feed into the strongest anti-Hillary narrative -- that she's a panderer and will say what is most politically expedient at the moment.

It's a sad state of affairs, but Hillary has made her bed. And while her advisors may cringe that voters demand she account for Iraq at every campaign stop, I hope she continues to get grilled on it. She deserves nothing less.

Update: Ahh, now it's Hillary advisor James Carville trying to tie Iraq into 9/11 to justify Hillary's war vote:

There was James Carville on CNN's Situation Room, desperately trying to explain why Sen.

Clinton voted for the war, even though other senators who had been given the same faulty intel she had, voted against it: "But they weren't from New York," he said. "Their state wasn't hit. They didn't have to deal with the grief of these 3,000 people."

As you recall, Hillary has already tried to make Cheney's favorite connection in trying to justify her vote:

As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and am still dealing with the aftereffects.

Arguing that since New York was hit, we had to bomb the fuck out of a country that had nothing to do with it, then invade it and lose what will eventually be a trillion dollars and countless lives is really not an endearing argument.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:15 AM PST.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

    •  Its too late now, too. (65+ / 0-)

      It wouldnt seem like an honest admission so much as something she was badgered into admitting.

      That guy at her NH stump who asked the Iraq question presented it WONDERFULLY, and IMO gave her the last opportunity to answer it with an admission of regret. But she didnt. And now she cant.

      Thanks Tut, Gramp, Choom Gang, and Ray for all the good times. Relentless!

      by ablington on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:19:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  HRC Didn't Just Vote for the AUMF (54+ / 0-)

        she truly supports the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Although she has criticized Bush's handling of the war, HRC has stood right beside Joementum policy-wise with regard to Iraq. There is NOTHING she can say now that will ever overcome that for me.

        This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

        by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:25:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Now don't you contradict Jimmy Carville! (12+ / 0-)

              He's always right, even when he's wrong!

              :P

          •  Coming up on 100% of the time (7+ / 0-)

            The only thing worse is Mary Matalin -- who must make Republicans squirm with her smug pickle puss as often as Carvill makes Dems squirm.

            •  someone should ask Hillary to list (13+ / 0-)

              her biggest mistakes of her first senate term..

              that's a question I'd like to see.

              Why do Murdoch and Trump like Hillary?

              by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:55:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  how about mistakes admitted by all here? (3+ / 0-)

                who support funding the war now.

                the more we bomb, the worse things will be.

              •  Not merely the IWR, it's Hillary's continued Iraq (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                David Boyle

                War boosterism in the half-decade since.  Hillary has been among the steadfast prominent members of either party in pushing to continue and expand the Iraq War.  Hillary's also been very hawkish on Iran and Syria.  Her little PR campaign about Iran today convinced nobody-- Hillary Clinton has been at the forefront of those waving bayonets in the direction of Tehran.

                This is the same reason that I'm annoyed at John Edwards right now.  He's done more of a 360 on Iraq, but he was also one of the war's biggest supporters in the Senate for 2 years after it started, and he's also pushing the anti-Iran line.  I like John Edwards' economic stands a good more than Hillary's-- she's the most awful example of DLC pro-corporatism of anybody, on outsourcing in particular and on things like credit availability to poor families, she's worse even than many republicans.

                Again, it bears repeating here-- there are countless numbers of grass-roots Democrats who will not under any circumstances vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton.  Will not vote for her at all.  The anger against her stands is far too palpable, she's too much against what the Progressive base is interested in, like Joe Lieberman.  

                People are already seeking out third parties, who would be massive beneficiaries if she's nominated. There's a critical angle here that often isn't grasped-- the Democrats control the Congress, and people angry at Hillary therefore are able to tolerate a moderate (or moderate-appearing) Republican in the White House, restrained by a Democratic Congress.  If Hillary is nominated, with all the frustration directed against her, a terrifying number of Democrats will not vote for her just because she's the nominee.  They can afford to wait until 2012 when a real progressive would presumably be nominated.

                This would be catastrophic against a GOP line-crosser like Rudy Giuliani.  

                Again, our best candidate by leaps and bounds is Barack Obama, and he is an actual progressive.  He's one of the few people who called Iraq right from the start (when he was in the Illinois legislature), and he's been keen on too many other fronts to count.  People wonder if the country's ready for him in 2008, but even if he were to lose as our nominee in 2008, he'd be a powerful contender for 2012 with the broader exposure.  HRC would be an absolute disaster for our party.  Barack, win or lose, would build up his profile tremendously and really has the capacity to unite us as we haven't been since John F. Kennedy.

                The best part, furthermore, is that I think that Barack really can win.

        •  I will vote for her if she wins the primary. (16+ / 0-)

          But I cant believe she doesnt seem to understand how this is a huge thorn in her side going into the primary season.

          Thanks Tut, Gramp, Choom Gang, and Ray for all the good times. Relentless!

          by ablington on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:31:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I said the same thing about Kerry (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            revbludge, playtonjr, jct, TomP

            You'd think she would have learned something from that campaign.  Edwards has and admitted his vote was a mistake - he can move on now.

            If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will.

            by Yoshimi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:38:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  does anyone have a link to Edwards' (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lynmar, TomP, End game

              senate speech.. I'd like to compare it to Hillary's

              Why do Murdoch and Trump like Hillary?

              by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:53:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It in the Congressional Record for (0+ / 0-)

                October 10, 2002 at page S10325-26. I'll try t hustle up the link, or perhaps someone else can move the ball here.

                "There is no 'policy' regarding a crime except to stop it." -- Dave925

                by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:09:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's the CR link (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  vivacia, flatford39

                  Edwards floor speech is here in the Congressional Record

                  "There is no 'policy' regarding a crime except to stop it." -- Dave925

                  by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:17:29 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  as I thought (5+ / 0-)

                    Hillary was the only one to confound Saddam with Al-Qaeda.

                    While Edwards was clearly wrong on Iraq and not a pacifist he at least clearly separated Saddam from Al Qaeda... he mentions whether or not Saddam will "distract" us from Al Qaeda.   (although none of these speeches are to be proud of in retrospect)

                    Hillary's speech.

                    He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

                    Why do Murdoch and Trump like Hillary?

                    by inevitibility on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:51:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Apparently no evidence." (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      flatford39, inevitibility

                      She seems seriously bummed about that.  As if it's a drag to live in the dreary confines of the reality-based community.  

                      She was probably torn between drinking the Kool-Aid in its entirety, or trying to keep one foot on the same planet as her saner constituents.

                      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

                      by Dale on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:35:04 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Hillary's speech (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MikePhoenix

                      She acknowledged that it was a blank check but voted for it anyway:

                      Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

                      So Hillary, was taking the President at his word not a mistake?

                      Moreover, do you support the practice of signing blank checks? After all, if it's the President who has to cash the blank check which you signed, then it's clearly not your fault because he shouldn't have cashed it in the first place if at all possible, right?

          •  The Truth Is That (15+ / 0-)

            all primary voters do not think as many of us do. Her vote is the past and they are looking for the best person to MOVE FORWARD with.

            Once again I am not a Hillary fan and will vote for someone else in the primaries. But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. Many Democratic Senators voted for the AUMF. Are we going to replace them all? Do people make mistakes? And when they make one then that's it - they're finished? Please! Who here hasn't made a mistake.

            There are many reasons to not want Hilliary as our ideal nominee that are far more important than how she voted. But this 'one issue' weekly screed that Markos is obsessed with is just plain dumb. In one paragraph he says "if their judgment was so poor as to vote for the darn thing, why should we promote them." Then in another he says if they say the word "mistake" then they can proceed. A vote is a vote and if one is lame enough to use that as a litmus test of whether a Senator can move upward then we are shackling ourselves far into the future.

            The other night I was watching Bill Maher being interviewed. I don't always agree with him because sometime like all people, even Senators, he is just plain wrong. But the other night he said that he just doesn't get the mindset in America today where a politician or public figure only has to say or do one thing and then the screaming masses want to toss them to the curb as unworthy of anything anymore. I guess he would know because that is what happened to him when ABC tossed him to the curb.

            But he is right. This "one wrong word" or "one wrong issue" and you are out madness is just that - Madness.

            I suggest we start acting like educated adults and take these single issues, factor them in, but not make them the obsessive single litmus test of anyone.
            `
            `

            "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

            by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:01:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not a matter (21+ / 0-)

              of "one wrong word" or "one wrong issue". The issue was war and her word was yes.

              What we need to look at when someone makes that kind of mistake is to look at the thought process whereby they came to the reasoning that led them to act incorrectly and then observe whether or not they are still using the same thought processes to make decisions now. Right now, the boys who cried wolf about WMDs in Iraq are crying wolf over Iran. Will we be having this same conversation about Hilary's judgement and willingness to beleive Bu$hCo lies 4 years from now?

              Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

              by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:15:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Then According To Your (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cpresley

                thought process every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                FYI the vote was not just for war. the vote was for going to the UB and putting inspectors in.

                The fact that Bush 'gamed' the AUMF and kicked the inspectors out is no one fault but Bush's.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:40:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  uhmmm (6+ / 0-)

                  > every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                  I think the whole point of this, was Hillary's inability to ADMIT that she fscked up.  And as for other unrepentant senators, yeah, they oughta be challenged, and tossed out if they just don't get it.

                  •  So For One Issue (0+ / 0-)

                    which they had 'false' intel and were under extreme political pressure...

                    You would toss them - for one issue - and forget about all the other issues that have and would benefit us for years to come?

                    Sigh. Our party really is going to the dogs.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:00:17 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  challenge != toss (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      opinionated, flatford39

                      They (said Senators who voted for AUMF) damned well OUGHT to be challenged (you know, like in a primary, and by the voters, at every campaign stop), on this.  If they don't answer to your satisfaction, do what you can to get the challenger elected.

                      For me, Hillary's "knowing what I know now, I'd have never voted" is a cop-out, and I think she's also passed the point where admitting straight out that the entire premise was a bad idea, and she truly regretted voting yes on it, wouldn't look real sincere.

                      •  who lead the fight in congress against the war? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Geotpf, opinionated, jfm

                        http://www.wagingpeace.org/...

                        Vote "NO'' On Iraq War Resolution US
                        Statement by Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), October 3, 2002

                        Before the House of Represenatives

                        As the vote on whether or not this Nation goes to war approaches in this Chamber, a vote which most surely will come within a few days, I think it is important, Mr. Speaker, for us to be able to make the case to the American people as to why it is not appropriate for this country to go to war and to encourage the American people to call their Members to make sure that government of the people, by the people, and for the people does prevail.
                        ...

                    •  Lieberman logic (9+ / 0-)

                      'Look guys, the Iraq War is just one issue...do you really want to toss out somebody because of this one little, eensy, weensy, teeny bit of an issue?'

                      I love it.  The DLC boys are back in town, and this time they've got a little more intertubes experience under their belts.

                      The South Will Rise (Blue) Again Blue Dawn Politics

                      by cfaller96 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:35:16 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  According to my (13+ / 0-)

                  way of thinking, if any Senator who voted yes did so because they were naive enough to take Bu$hCo's word for anything or were too cowardly to oppose them and  is still thinking and acting the same way, then why the hell not kick them to the curb? We're a Big Tent party, but I say that we no longer have room for fools and cowards.

                  What Hillary said was that if she "knew then what she knows now", she'd have voted differently. Well, I did know then what she knows now--that Bush was lying and that this would trigger an Iraqi civil war and an bloody quagmire. Now, I'm not an educated man. In fact, I'm a high-school dropout. So why am I smarter than Hilary Rodham Clinton?

                  The fact that Bush "gamed" the AUMF is the fault of every Senator who voted for it. For them to claim that they could not have foreseen the present situation is as insulting as Condi claiming that they could never have foreseen terrorists slamming planes into buildings.

                  Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

                  by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:57:07 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  let's keep the tent big (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    flatford39, revbludge

                    ... but I say that we no longer have room for fools and cowards.

                    Can't we welcome those "fools and cowards", but nominate somebody else for the highest political office in America? I suspect HRC will be a positive force for the party, as well as the nation, if she continues to serve in the Senate.

                    •  If the "fools and cowards" (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      opinionated, revbludge, jfm, MikePhoenix

                      are big enough to admit that they made mistakes and promise not to repeat them, and then keep that promise, fine. But if not, why on Earth would we want to be represented by people that don't act in our best interests?

                      It's really that simple.

                      Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

                      by drewfromct on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:33:21 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i feel ya (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        carrieboberry, drewfromct

                        I understand completely. (And, no, it ain't because one of your senators is named Joe.)

                        HRC, at this point, represents the people of New York. She had an outrageous margin of victory in her Senate campaign. They've got her (and shared her with the rest of us).

                        There actually are more than a few things about HRC that I respect, but there's no way I'm going to want to see her prevail in the primary. Even so, I'll commit myself to respecting the will of the primary voters. If she does win the nomination, she'll have my backing, just as John Kerry did.

                •  It isn't that she voted for the resolution - it (9+ / 0-)

                  is how she has handled explaining her vote.  She and her team have grossly underestimated the public's need for clarity on this subject.

                  Carville's lame defense really makes her look weak - not stronger which is the whole reason they told her not to reverse her position on the war ages ago.  She wanted to look like a hawk.  She comes off looking like a scared victim.

                  Worse still, John Corzine of New Jersey who lost an awful lot of citizens on September 11th had the wisdom and presence of mind not to vote for the Iraq War Resolution even in light of his state's trauma.  Acting like it is a New York thing and pretending like no one else understands simply doesn't cut it.

                  If the powers that be in the party are going to shove her down my throat as my nominee, then she better get her story straight and tell people what she really thinks or she is going to get caught out in the general election.  Worse, there won't be a lot of us who will either be able to defend her or motivated to do so.

                  •  not so sure (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    inclusiveheart

                    She and her team have grossly underestimated the public's need for clarity on this subject.

                    Hope that you are right. Suspect, though, that the general public might not have that "need". (It's kinda sad.)

                    •  The media is hitting her extremely hard on this (9+ / 0-)

                      point.  It has been unending since the weekend.  And don't think for a second that the "vast right wing conspiracy" isn't egging it on.  The Clintonians are often touted as the most politically shrewd people on the face of the earth rivaled only by Rove and his camp.  The reality is that while they both have been very skilled in the past several years, they political landscape is changing and neither seems to be adapting very well.  At least, in my mind, her hedging and dodging is quite parallel to the kinds of communications that are sinking the White House at the moment.  It could almost be said that both are practicing "old style" politics where the lack of consistency and straight forward honesty was once forgiven by their audience.  I believe that the audience has changed.  They are looking for authenticity and have a lot less patience for spin and nuance than they did in the past six years.

                      I really believe she would be smart to stand up and make an Iraq speech and admit that she always wanted to invade Iraq.  That she believed that it was a very good idea even if it had nothing to do with September 11th; and that she believed that a policy of a pre-emptive war was acceptable.  I think she should admit that because I believe that is what she believed at the time.  I don't know what she believes now and she would have to go on to talk about what if anything in her thinking has changed to have satisfactorily answered the questions we want answered now.  If on the other hand she still believes everything she did at the time then she should come clean and say so.  But if she continues to weave and dodge she will get hit from both ends.  Her base won't like her and the Republicans will eat her alive in the general.  What I have always disliked about the Clintons is that they have never seemed to have an instinct for honesty.  I don't think they are total liars, but I don't think that their first thought is "just tell the truth".  I think that truth is weigheted on a par with nuance and lies and wins out with them if and only if it is politically advantageous.  If Senator Clinton was an unknown quantity, she might get away with it, but Americans are a much tougher crowd than they were in 2000 and 2004.

                      •  You're only seeing half the story (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Lois, opinionated, inclusiveheart

                        Though the media seems to be hitting, they're even moreso handing us HRC as presumptive nominee. Thus, their narrative is still that Dems are second-fiddle losers.

                        Don't count on the traditional media to get anything done. If HRC's poll numbers begin to drop, they'll suppress this story ...

                        •  I'm not sure what you mean about counting on (0+ / 0-)

                          the traditional media to get anything done.  I am really looking at this as John Kerry's swift boat moment and think her failure to hit this question head on is really going to hurt her.  The worst thing is that in this case we can't even refute the facts - she did vote for the war and her explanations are confusing.

                      •  this isn't going to change things with (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        inclusiveheart

                        Hillary's base.

                        Her base is the subset of Fortune 1000 CEOs who are willing to finance her. It's a 20th century corporate-subsidized and corporatist values campaign, just like Bill's in the 1990s.

                        The marks that support Hillary are exactly that. Since they'll vote for her regardless of what she does or says, she doesn't care what they think.

                        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                        by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:55:17 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It is her choice. (0+ / 0-)

                          She can not care at her own peril.  I think she and her team are underestimating their early 21st Century audience.  It is back to that whole thing about her negatives.  They are high.  It would be a miscalculation to not only have a camp that is quite large that really detests you and then go on to make your base uneasy in addition.

                          •  that's what I meant about her (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            inclusiveheart

                            running a 90s style campaign where "new media" is something one does on TV.

                            And I'd like to emphasise that her marks fanatics are NOT her base. Without corporate support, Hillary wouldn't even be in the also-ran category.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:41:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  You and I (3+ / 0-)

                    have agreed on  a lot of things in the past. In fact this is the first issue that I remember we don't agree on and it really is not a big deal. I feel that the word 'mistake' is not necessary and that Hillary has clearly enough stated she would not vote the same again and you and others feel it necessary for her to explain it in the way you want it explained.

                    Myself - the word "mistake" is just not that big a deal. As I said in another post in this thread I think the words she used, that she has "taken responsibility" for her vote are far stronger that the word "mistake".

                    It is one thing for a person to say they made a mistake which does not necessarily include responsibility. But it is much more courageous and meaningful to accept responsibility.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:58:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree taking responsibility is powerful and (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      talex, flatford39

                      important.  What is tripping her up is the second part which is what would she do differently the next time and there will be a next time.  I am concerned also about whether or not I'll watch this campaign and finally end up having a stroke out of frustration watching the Clinton team calculate their messaging to the point where they talk themselves out of the job.  I'm really not in the camp that wants her to give blood for her errors here.  But I am realistic enough to understand that the more she dances the more she will be forced to dance.  Carville and Begala (I saw Begala go with the "she was in shock" narrative either last week or the week before) suggesting that her emotion was that much of a factor in her decision is only going to make it worse for her.  I'm talking pure media strategy here and fairly objectively.  The thing is that even though I'm not a fan, I actually am loathe to see any Democrat fail at this level.  I hope for her sake get can get it back under control.

                      •  Good Post (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        inclusiveheart

                        and well thought out as usual.

                        I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say "What is tripping her up is the second part which is what would she do differently the next time and there will be a next time". Are you talking about how she would handle a possible future military confrontation or how she will handle the issue of her vote next time.

                        If it is future military confrontation I really don't think she would lie us into a war or even go into a war without clear cut non-manipulated intel. She is no fool and has seen how Iraq has harmed our country. Besides if we are still in Iraq in January 2009 we won't have the military strength to do anything else. I think that is one of the reasons
                        Bush is trying to Make Nice with N. Korea. He has no army  left to take them on and he is trying to take threats off the table so we can't beat him over the head with them by talking about how Iraq puts us in danger with other threats.

                        Now if you are talking about how she would handle the issue of her vote then that is easy. It won't come up again. At least not in the General Election should she get the nomination. I mean what would the repubs do - slam here for voting yes? They can't do that and won't do that. In fact you don't even hear them doing that now. No actually as much as we don't like it her yes vote is one weapon the repubs won't have to use against her. Same with Edwards.

                        No, right now the only one beating up on her as you mentioned upthread are the MSM. And the sad thing is that many on the Left are actually help fuel it and giving the MSM the talking point that the Left doesn't like her which helps keep there story going. That is what I have been trying to communicate the last few weeks but many here have blinders on and refuse to see it.

                        As for Carville and Begala - yeah they scare me too. But you know what even if Hilliary disassociated herself from them completely they would still be out there flapping their traps just to be on TV. And it would be the same with any candidate. If Edwards or Obama or any of the others were to get the nomination the poisonous Carville and Begala would still be out there flapping their traps. It's scary for sure.

                        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                        by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:57:36 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What she would do in the face of another threat (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          flatford39

                          is my question - I wasn't clear.  You see the intelligence community is complex and there is a lot of "noise" about a lot of stuff almost constantly.  Being able to cut through the bull is going to be more challenging since BushCo has essentially infiltrated the Pentagon and the CIA in the ways that they have.  Next assuring me that she isn't the sort of person who buys into pre-emptive strikes would be a big plus - and I have to say I haven't heard her say she has a problem with them unless I missed them.  Those are my two personal issues - and I have heard others express similar concerns about her position and Republicans who don't reject that policy.  Oddly Begala's and Carville's stated defense exaggerates my need for her to clarify her position.  I am frankly stunned that the Clinton team wouldn't have anticipated that someone could have that perspective on their line of defense.

                          As for Begala and Carville (oh and also McAuliffe) - they are taking their marching orders from the Senator at the moment and what they have said has given me pause as to their overall ability to get this deal done.  Keeping in mind that none of them have really been out amongst the people since 1992 - I think their performance is still amazingly tone deaf.  Especially if her opponent ends up being McCain, she is going to have to make sure that she doesn't appear to be calculating becuse he is a master of being calculating and not appearing to be.  So is Giuliani.  Anyhow, we'll see what happens.

                          Oh and the left adding to the frenzy.  I have to tell you that I have genuine concerns about both HRC and Obama.  The past six years have been too scary and too painful for me to just let stuff go unanswered or to be trusting.  I am in a really practical - list oriented - state of mind - I am also looking for authenticity, practical experience, and a level headed approach that tends towards peaceful conflict resolution and diplomacy abroad and at home.  If Obama runs a coy campaign, I won't have anything to do with him.  If Hillary continues to weave and dodge I won't have anything to do with her.  If her husband had just said the courageous and not politically correct thing about the blow job "It is none of your goddamned business" we might never have even thought about George W. Bush after November 2000.  But he wasn't into personal sacrafice when it counted.

                          Anyhow, I've gone into why I don't like the Clintons on a totally different level here and probably muddied my earlier argument which is offered in ernest as an assessment of what I think is her current political miscalculation.  I'd be saying the same about someone I supported whole-heartedly though.  I am in marketing and there is nothing that frustrates me more than a Democrat blowing this stuff especially since the Republicans have proven to be quite good at the art of communication.

            •  I don't see it that way... (12+ / 0-)

              "But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. "

              I think the obession is with the fact that she won't admit she made a mistake.  Therefore she must not feel she made a mistake, that the war is not a mistake. I think the war is a mistake ergo, I don't care to vote for her.

              If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

              by crkrjx on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:18:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I Won't Either (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                heartofblue, cpresley

                That is I won't vote for here in the primaries - but I will vote for here if she wins the nomination.  The reason I won't vote for her in the primaries isn't because I'm obsessed with her not saying the word "mistake". I'd like to think I am above that. She has said she wouldn't vote the same today. Good enough for me. But for you and others unless she says "mistake" it just isn't good enough.

                I have heard of 'one issue' voters and thinkers before but this is an example of taking things to the ridiculous extreme IMHO.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:55:53 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I believe if someone can't admit a mistake (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  opinionated
                  • it's a fatal flaw - case in point?  GW Bush

                  If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

                  by crkrjx on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 08:30:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  The problem is "political calculation" (11+ / 0-)

              not the vote.

              That is the main problem I have with Hillary.

              I believe she calculated that voting for the war would be the best thing for her politically, just like Kerry and Edwards did. Now, she has calculated that the best thing is not to recant.

              All I know is what I perceive to be her political stance, not her true stance on the war, which is why I don't trust her to be my president. I want someone who is not afraid to say what they believe.

              That is going to be Hillary's biggest problem to overcome. The vote is just symbolic of the underlying problem.

              Politicians and diapers both need to be changed often, and for the same reason..unknown

              by Sherri in TX on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:20:23 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  She has Recanted (9+ / 0-)

                She has said knowing what she does NOW that she would not vote yes again. That IS admitting that based on the facts now she would not vote the same.

                The problem people have is she will not say the word "mistake". I bet most people here have swallowed that word more than once themselves - that they wouldn't publicly admit the made a mistake. But yet they use it as a litmus test for others.

                As I said - let's discuss the real issues that one does not like about Hilliary. But if we are going to obsess over the word "mistake" for the next year then this blog is going to become very boring. I'd like to think that people here are broader thinkers that that. But then maybe not.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:47:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Broad thinkers... maybe not (7+ / 0-)

                  I agre talex - here's what she said in New Hampshire

                  CLINTON: Well, I have said, and I will repeat it, that, knowing what I know now, I would never have voted for it. [audience applause] But I also—and, I mean, obviously you have to weigh everything as you make your decision. I have taken responsibility for my vote. The mistakes were made by this president, who misled this country and this Congress into a war that should not have been waged.

                  Yet, many here including Markos insist on comparing her to Cheney.

                  •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dannyinla, cpresley, fairleft

                    She has said everything she needed to say to make clear how she feels.

                    She has even "taken responsibility" for her vote while saying she would not vote the same again.

                    I know for me I'd rather see a person "take responsibility" than simply say they made a mistake. Admitting a mistake is not necessarily taking "responsibility" - and taking responsibility is what adults do - children say they make mistakes.

                    "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                    by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:02:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  It's not obsessing over a word (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  alizard

                  It's being firm on the concept of accountability. She got it wrong and won't admit it.

                  Refusing to admit that she made a mistake is to refuse to acknowledge that there was a difference between those of us who called it right back then, and those who got it wrong.

                  You either got it right or got it wrong. If you got it wrong, you need to reassess the thought processes/logic that you used to arrive at your conclusions.

                  If you refuse to admit error, you cannot reassess. If you cannot reassess, you cannot improve you defacto flawed thought process.

                  In addition to that, she is essentially refusing to accept her part in the hostile environment that those of us who got it right had to endure.

                  Kos' comment says a lot.

                  These Democrats didn't just enable Bush's war, they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening. And while most of the candidates in the field have come around, Hillary remains the notable exception.

                  There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                  by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:09:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  She was conned (5+ / 0-)

                  The problem here is that Ms. Clinton is staking her position thusly: that there was no way she could have voted differently if she (and her staff) had been more diligent in 2002. That's the kernel of her action.

                  I really don't want to hand the White House keys to somebody who claims that she'll be no more diligent in the future than she was in October 2002. The job's too big for an easy mark ...

                  She'll never admit that she voted thusly for political purposes. We really cannot purport to know her mind on that. Still, claim that she was suckered rings hollow among those who've been paying close attention (like most fellow Kossacks). It's really a damned shame that most Democratic voters don't do likewise.

                •  No, she hasn't... (0+ / 0-)

                  fully explained her vote (see Bob Johnson's diary yesterday), and she seems unwilling to do so.

                  Besides, if doesn't use the word "mistake," then how am I supposed to know if she really does believe it was a mistake?  Or do you think Iran/Iraq v2.o doesn't count?

                  The South Will Rise (Blue) Again Blue Dawn Politics

                  by cfaller96 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:38:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Two bad choices (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alizard, creeper

                Either we believe she's acting out of political calculation or we believe she made one of the most wrong-headed votes in the history of the Senate, based on the flimsiest of evidence, out of misguided patriotism and at the behest of a group of warmongers who had been jonesing to go to war since the nineties. The first one disgusts me, but the second choice sends a chill down my spine. Either she's a machine or an idiot. Neither one inspires my vote.

              •  This is mind-reading (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                diplomatic

                inspired by the MSM anti-Hillary (and anti-Democrat) narrative: "She is a calculating panderer (they are calculating panderers). St. John McCain is a straight shooter." The Dem nominee was killed by this in 2000 and savaged by it in 2004.

                There is no evidence that Hillary is any more calculating than any other politician. At least show me some evidence, instead of just relying on the Republican-managed 'impression' of Hillary we get from the MSM.

                I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:42:21 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sherri, you're right. (0+ / 0-)

                At least for me, the underlying problem with Hillary is that she isn't honest and did not stand up publicly for anything important to me, nor did she stand up with Feinstein, Murtha and other colleagues who could have used her high profile support. Interesting that in her effort to portray herself as a badass on defense, thus overcome the stereotypical passive female liberal persona, she comes across as a weak woman, lacking the courage to stand up to the boys until it was popular to do so. On the other hand, maybe she really is a hawk on defense; her speech at AIPAC a couple weeks ago surely indicates that she is. Either way, she's created a mess for herself.  

            •  Being wrong about an illegal war... (14+ / 0-)

              where countless thousands have been slaughtered is a little bit different than being wrong about the most efficient way to administer highway funds.

              I'm willing to allow mistakes in politicians, but when I, pretty much everyone who posts here, as well as millions of others all around the world were able to see that the rationale for war was a crock of shit, then why didn't Hillary. If you can't outthink George W, then you've lost my vote.

              The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

              by cometman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:20:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I Just say the same to you (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cpresley, fairleft

                that I said to another poster above:

                Then According To Your thought process every Senator who voted yes should be tossed to the curb.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:50:22 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, I would like to see that... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  leftyboy666, Roadbed Guy, jfm, MikePhoenix

                  the war is illegal.  There are no excuses.  None. Period.

                  The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

                  by cometman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:10:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Indeed, out of the other 299,999,900 (6+ / 0-)

                  people in this country - I'd be happy to take my chances that we could find another 100 qualified individuals to take over the senate . . . (OK, sure, maybe we can leave in the handful who voted against the IWR).

                •  Every Senator isn't running for president (0+ / 0-)

                  I have two responses to your response:

                  1. Every Senator isn't running for president. If you're running for president, you better have a damn good reason for the entire country why you did something stupid like vote for an illegal war. If you're not running for president, you're only responsible to your constituents, which means I only have a beef with Feinstein on this, besides Clinton.
                  1. Every Senator who's running for president isn't a former inhabitant of the White House. She should have known better. She knew what kind of snakes these guys are and she blew it.

                  A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

                  by tmo on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:56:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  ACTING LIKE ADULTS vis-a-vis HRC (12+ / 0-)

              Her vote was a colossal error, indeed.  Also, one that was supported by the vast majority of Americans (who are obviously not as quick as bloggers--that meant tongue in cheek).  THAT is why most Democrats are not raking her over the coals.

              The anti-Hillary vitriol sounds like the "right wing smear machine."  It astounds and distresses me how many writers say that they'd never vote for Hillary.  I mean, better to have a GOP Pres, to doom Roe v. Wade, destroy the COURTS, the ENVIRONMENT, etc.

              Thank you for saying the necessary:  we need to act like adults, if we want to move this country forward.

              •  Yes, I'll vote for her if she gets to the ticket (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                by foot, alizard, larrybutch

                But hell no I will not support her now.

                It's not being childlike for me to call her on the carpet for her positions.

                I don't like her positions, I don't like her explanations.

                I'm not obsessing over her vote. I am obsessing over the fact that she will not admit that it was a mistake; that there was a better position to take and for whatever reason, she failed to recognize it at the time.

                I hate it that GW won't admit mistakes, and I will hold ANY Democrat to that standard as well.

                There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:13:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  adults can admit mistakes. adults don't (0+ / 0-)

                rely on hordes of political consultants to make their decisions for them.

                In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

                by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:37:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  "hordes of political consultants" = MSM spin (0+ / 0-)

                  You're just regurgitating the Republican/Rightie MSM spin on Hillary.

                  Which they'll turn on whoever is the leading Democrat, just watch.

                  She says she would've voted differently with what she knows now. That's all us adults should need. This is not a big deal, except in the MSM and here on dailykos.

                  I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                  by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:45:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  nice try, but really James, stick to CNN. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    alizard, MikePhoenix

                    that is all us adults should need? You mean we should turn off our rational thinking process (just like the bush supporters do) and blindly follow a heavily flawed candidate because she has money? You mean we should ignore thinking about what this says about her leadership qualities, intellectual curiosity and gulibility? You mean we should ignore her laziness as a senator, her willingness to hide in a crowd in order to protect her presidential aspirations and simply say, oh, that was then, this is now?

                    No way.

                    In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

                    by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:15:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, you should fight on real issues (0+ / 0-)

                      There's plenty wrong with the real Hillary's positions on the issues. But all kos and you ever attack is the MSM-created Hillary, the one with 'hordes of advisors' (all the Big Dems have 'many' advisors, so does Hillary), the one who's calculating, who will do anything to become President.

                      Y' know, just like Gore in 2000, that same MSM-created character the Republicans create for all the Dem Presidential candidates. The b.s. we're supposed to be fighting.

                      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:32:15 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OK. I agree with that completely (0+ / 0-)

                        you  win :)  and yes, I know, we are NOT having a contest. a contest suggests competition, a fight, a spat, a boxing match, a. . . .

                        In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

                        by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:01:28 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  according to you (0+ / 0-)

                    ANY criticism of Hillary is Republican/Rightie MSM spin.

                    Is there some reason why anyone should take your opinions seriously?

                    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                    by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:05:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It's not just the one vote. (0+ / 0-)

              Once again I am not a Hillary fan and will vote for someone else in the primaries. But this obsession over her vote is idiotic. Many Democratic Senators voted for the AUMF. Are we going to replace them all?"

              It's not just the vote.  It is the whole-hearted support she has had for her vote up until now, and has others have said better than I can, that she has undercut us at every turn the way Joementum did.

              And I think this goes to her underlying character problem that the Republicans are eager to exploit: her cynical political opportunism.  Because I don't for one minute believe that she really believed in her vote for that.  On the one hand, I give her enough credit to see what a pile of crap that vote was when she made it.  On the other, her consistent positioning around that vote shows a sociopathic willingness to do the wrong thing.

              Hillary and her entourage really must have believed that as dumb as the war was, it was going to work to Bush's advantage for a long time and they better not get in the way, but it would be over before 2008.  It isn't, and now her strategy has failed.

              Who was it that said, "Better to be wrong and strong than right and weak?"

            •  Agree completely (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              talex

              It's the same one-issue-ism that people on this site often complain about.

              Be it choice, drugs, gay marriage, etc. Though to my mind the war is more important that any of these. To some, not.

              I fully expect a candidate to differ from me on any number of issues. Some more important than others. I will look for the candidate who most shares my views and who I think would be a good president. Right now that person is Al Gore. Unfortunately for me, I don't expect him to run. After him, I prefer Wesley Clark, after that I'm undecided.

              But whoever is the nominee, I will support that person. I'm amazed that some people on this site are refusing to make that same committment.

              How many Ralph Nader voters (or other third party) does it take to elect a GOP president?

              Don't cut your nose off to spite your face people!

          •  I won't vote for her if she wins the primary (12+ / 1-)

            We don't need another deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid president.  I'll stay home or vote for Vermin Supreme.  There are some Democrats I would vote for enthusiastically, others I'd hold my nose and vote for, and then there are those I would not vote for under any circumstances.  Hillary and Biden fall into that last category.

            I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

            by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:15:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ridiculous. Gore and Bush are the same. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wystler, carrieboberry, heartofblue
            •  Agree (6+ / 0-)

              although I reserve the right to change my mind.  I can respect the fact that some people believe in voting the lesser of two evils for any democrat, but I can't figure out why they don't respect the fact that some of us draw the line in a different place than "democrat vs republican"

              "New World Orders" is the exciting new novel of global warming and conspiracy by Ed Parrot and Jason Derrig. Visit www.edwardgtalbot.com for more information.

              by eparrot on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:49:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are some real authoritarians here... (9+ / 0-)

                ...who relish their self-appointed roles as diary and discourse police.  They believe if you participate at this blog you are somehow required to automatically and blindly vote Democratic, regardless of how loathsome the individual candidate might be.  Tigercourse, in this thread, is one of them.  Delaware Dem is probably the best-known of them.  (Perhaps you recall some of his diaries in the weeks before the election...)  Now that he no longer blogs here there are probably plenty who want to take DD's place.  They're known for abusing the ratings policy and hijacking threads with their bleatings.  Kos has banned some of them, but there will always be more.  Authoritarians are just like that, it seems.

                I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:11:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are welcome to vote for anyone. (0+ / 0-)

                  In fact it's good that you speak up. But here's the thing would you vote for Obama or Edwards?

                  •  The only Dem candidates I would not vote for (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    in the general election are Biden and Clinton.  In general, I support Democratic candidates.  But I do NOT support them blindly, and I very strongly DO believe in holding them accountable.

                    I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                    by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:48:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  tough choice. (0+ / 0-)

                    I like Edwards more than Obama, but I can't get past his war vote or my fear that he will be another centrist democrat re: Israel/Palestine.  I don't like Obama as much - I worry he is more interested in philosophy than policy - but I have to admit that his record is better (albeit shorter) than Edwards'.

                    If I had to go into the booth today, I might not decide until I got there between those two and Clark.  But that's one reason I am trying to pay a lot of attention so that when I do have to vote, I am confident in the vote.

                    "New World Orders" is the exciting new novel of global warming and conspiracy by Ed Parrot and Jason Derrig. Visit www.edwardgtalbot.com for more information.

                    by eparrot on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:22:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  it should be mentioned (4+ / 0-)

                  as always, the statement of purpose of this site

                  This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory.

                  Certainly one can go overboard in quashing dissent.  But above is the purpose of the site.  Despite my moniker, I, for one, see the necessity right now of supporting that purpose.

                  •  Yup (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    And all the authoritarians on this site are always quick to throw that quote in the face of anyone who disagrees with them, taking a ridiculously and childishly overly-literal interpretation of it.

                    If Joe Lieberman ran as a Democrat again, would you support him?  Would you support Bush if he ran as a Democrat?  What if we dug James O. Eastland out of his grave, removed the stake that had been pounded through his heart, and ran him for president?  Would you vote for HIM?

                    I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                    by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:53:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Since you brought up the subject of your moniker (0+ / 0-)

                      I just have two words: RICHLY IRONIC.

                      I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                      by asskicking annie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 06:26:22 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  two words in return: (0+ / 0-)

                        BORING and PREDICTABLE

                        •  Well, definitely not the curiosity you are (0+ / 0-)

                          Imagine, someone who calls himself/herself "Viva Dissent" while forcefully advocating for the status quo, for the party corporate establishment, and for unthinkly following what passes for authority.  Not a level of irony encountered very often, I must say.

                          I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                          by asskicking annie on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:13:07 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  lol (0+ / 0-)

                            forcefully advocating for the status quo, for the party corporate establishment, and for unthinkly following what passes for authority

                            Absolute lies and utter bullshit, Annie.
                            Clearly, you know nothing about my positions on anything, and you obviously don't care.  

                            You just make up a narrative to fit your self-aggrandizement (regardless of whether it hurts or helps the cause of real progressive change).  
                            Keep on asskicking, you're a real rebel!

                          •  No, I don't know anything about you (0+ / 0-)

                            I just know what you said above: shut the fuck up, and do what you're told to do.  Don't think about Hillary's pro-corporate and pro-war record.  Just shut the fuck up and vote for her and don't rock the boat.  The rules here say this is a Democratic site so shut the fuck up and do what the Dem establishment tells you to do.

                            Are you telling me that's NOT what you said above?  Maybe we should let some readers be the judge.

                            I support THEY WORK FOR US: http://www.workingforuspac.org ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I BOYCOTT the New York Times and the Washington Post.

                            by asskicking annie on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:52:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  all fictions (0+ / 0-)

                            It would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting.  If you don't wish to debate or discuss the points that someone else raises, you don't have to say anything.  But inventing your own set of villainous arguments to tag onto someone else is profoundly dishonest.

                            I shouldn't have to read back your own comments to you, but this thread was spun off of your assertion about all the "authoritarians" who

                            believe if you participate at this blog you are somehow required to automatically and blindly vote Democratic

                            Apparently my quoting of the FAQ (as a response for why people would be so devoted to that effort here) delivered some kind of subliminal assault on behalf of Hillary Clinton (who I don't support) and the Democratic corporate establishment (which I don't support), thereby persecuting you horribly.  Horribly enough that you had to invent stories about my authoritarian crusade and my tyranical efforts to silence you.

                            Actually, if you had bothered to engage in a discussion, rather than firing off hack and slash invectives, I would have explained that, for me-- who has spent much of my life working for progressive causes outside and inside the Democratic Party-- there are a number of other blogs and sites where I go to engage in a broader, and often more progressive, approach to the issues-- but that, when I come to daily kos, I recognize that the purpose of this site and its activism is more targetted, and in my opinion, quite legitimate right now.  

                            If you wanted to argue that you think it's bad strategy to work toward Democratic dominance at the expense of important ideological battles-- I would think that was a great counter-argument, and one with which I agree, and I would have an interest in hearing what other progressives and activists think.

                            But you chose instead to put words in my mouth and act as if I'm part of some despotic regime trying to suppress you.

                            It's good to debate with some respect for people who don't always agree with you, and with the humility to recognize that you can't magically judge the stranger on the other end of a discussion-- rather than launching knee-jerk attacks and derision at people who might be on the same side as you.

            •  How can this get recommended on a Democratic (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wystler, heartofblue, dannyinla, cpresley

              blog? How will McCain or Giuliani or Hagel be better?

            •  'I WON'T VOTE FOR HILLARY" (4+ / 0-)

              You'd rather have Rudy or John M as President????

              That is INSANE.  Do you really think that Roe v. Wade, the entire COURT SYSTEM, the environment, civil rights, gay rights, working wages, etc., mean nothing?

              •  Come-on (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                asskicking annie, jfm

                Let people vote their conscience.

                I live in NY. If I don't vote for HRC, it would have no effect on the electoral votes, assuming she will carry NY, which is a pretty damn safe assumption. Many people are in a similar situation. If the general isn't close in your state, it doesn't matter.

                This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

                by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:45:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  just stupid. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wystler

              Suport Obama or Edwards in the primary, Hopefully obama wins btw, but if Hillary wins the nom you have to vote democrtaic if you live ina swing state. McCain is going to Invade Iran and Syria.

          •  so will I (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jfm

            Since her Fortune 1000 corporate friends will have bought her the nomination, they can buy her post-nomination GOTV and media ads, too.

            My money and time will be going to downticket progressives.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:43:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I live in California... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jfm

            ...which means my vote is 100% worthless, which means I have the luxury of being able to vote Libertarian if she is the nominee.

        •  Absurd. (12+ / 0-)

          HRC has stood right beside Joementum policy-wise with regard to Iraq.

          Bat-shit crazy absurd.  And people who endorsed this comment, you should be ashamed of yourself.

          Clinton was wrong on the war vote.  But she has consistently criticized the conduct of the war and our continued presence in Iraq since at least 2004.  Her position and Lieberman's, if not 180 degrees apart are at least 160 degrees apart.

          Hate on Hillary all you want.  Her war vote too evil for you?  Fine!  Her refusal to repudiate the vote in the language you prefer?  OK.  Don't like the people she associates with?  Make your choice against her on any factually correct basis you want.

          But please:

          1. Clinton is currently against the war and has been for some time.  Her position is not the same as Lieberman's.
          1. Clinton did not vote for the Flag Burning ammendment.  She was the deciding vote against it.
          1. Clinton did not vote for the Bankruptcy Bill (neither did Obama, another untruth floating around the internets).

          Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

          by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:03:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL! (7+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lois, wystler, adigal, jct, naltikriti, michstjame, RudiB

            I have seen HRC make pro-war statements many times over the past few years. My opinion is not at all based on her vote for the AUMF.

            Why do you feel the need to equate that with hate for Hillary? I voted for her to represent me in the senate, and I'm happy to have her there. You should try to resist constructing straw-men, especially when it maligns your fellow Kossacks.

            This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

            by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:16:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What? (3+ / 0-)

              I voted for her to represent me in the senate, and I'm happy to have her there.

              Why do I find that hard to believe -- the second part, if not the first.  You're happy to have Joe Lieberman represent you in the Senate?  Please -- tell me another one!

              Or perhaps even you recognize that your statement about Clinton and Lieberman was ridiculous?

              And Clinton's "pro-war" statements?  Except for the standard "no options off the table" language every statement I've seen by her emphasizes diplomacy.  Every one.  

              Show me otherwise.

              Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:19:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  My congresswoman signed on to support Hillary (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wystler, Roadbed Guy

              already. Kirsten Gillibrand, NY20, has already signed on to support Hillary. She also did NOT sign onto that letter that many freshmen Dems signed onto about economic inequality that I saw on Kos last week. Larry in NYC always supports the two of them, which is, of course, his right. I think they all hang out together in NYC at high cost fund raising events. I know Gillibrand and Clinton do. Democracy in action. (I am not being snarky.)

              My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

              by adigal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:23:45 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Actually (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Zagatzz, 2nd balcony, adigal

            when Joe Lieberman was running in an ELECTION he was in danger of losin, his position was very much closer to Clinton's position, that she has now.

            They are not identical politicians, but they are closer then most. I mean look how chummy they when it comes to flipping out over fucking video games.

            •  When Lieberman was (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              naderhader, curtadams, cpresley

              in danger of losing, it's true he did lie about both his current position and his history.  For that month or two he was a lot closer to the Democratic position on Iraq.

              But that was lieing.  Clinton has never held a position close to Lieberman's true position on Iraq.  It's a fiction at best, a deliberate falsehood at worst.

              Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:21:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you personally know (0+ / 0-)

                both Hillary and Joe's TRUE position on Iraq? You can make that claim with real honesty? Even Joe's true position on Iraq is still cloudy (his motives maybe even darker then he cares to admit). So let us keep this debate based on what they have both said about Iraq.

                Considering how nuanced Hillary's position on this issue has been, it is not for the purposes of being as transparent as possible on this issue, it is to give her wiggle room. She is moderate the Joe, but she is a hell of alot closer to him then most of the candidates on the Dem side except for perhaps Biden.

              •  i agree with you part way: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jfm

                "[sen] clinton has never held a position."

                please also respond to her willingness to conflate iraq and 9/11.

                we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

                by 2nd balcony on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:32:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Her conflation of Iraq (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  heartofblue, cpresley

                  with 9/11 is only true if you play the same rhetorical trick with her statement as you did with mine.  Which is fun, of course.  But false.

                  Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

                  by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:39:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  (pointing towards back door of bar:) ok, let's go (4+ / 0-)

                    how then do you interpret her relying on the argument that her state had been hit on 9/11 as continuing to justify her vote (specifically) and her attititude (generally) in suuport for the iraq invasion.

                    i didn't make this up, she said it.  i don't want semantics about my use of the term "conflate."

                    but don't sit at your keyboard and tell me she didn't say the things that she said...on film, no less.

                    we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

                    by 2nd balcony on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:54:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  She didn't say it as you claim. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      bluecayuga, brek

                      Where does she say that the fact the her state was hit on 9/11 justified her vote?

                      Here's her quote in fuller context (from the AP) from a speech she delivered in Iowa.

                      GLOVER (1/27/07): Attention focused on Iraq and her vote to authorize the use of force ahead of the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003. Presidential rivals such as former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards now say the vote in support was a mistake.

                      "There are no do-overs in life," Clinton said. She says Congress received bad information going into the vote and that she would have voted differently given what she knows now.

                      "As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and I am still dealing with the aftereffects," Clinton said. "I may have a slightly different take on this from some of the other people who will be coming through here."

                      Clinton said her view is that the nation is engaged in a deadly fight against terrorism, a battle that she contends Bush has botched.

                      "I do think we are engaged in a war against heartless, ruthless enemies," she said. "If they could come after us again tomorrow they would do so."

                •  She didn't confate 9/11 with Iraq (8+ / 0-)

                  a fucking AP reporter (sort of did), which led Aravosis to get his panties in a bunch, which led Atrios and Markos to follow suit.

                  The entire argument that HRC ala Cheney is conflating 9/11 with Iraq - which Markos continue to hammer is a fucking embarrassment.

                  Some words from Bob Somerby on this:

                  Unconscionable! And an outright lie! Claims like that were once the stuff of fact-challenged screeds from the RNC. Soon, Atrios linked to the AMERICAblog post, noting (twice) that "Clinton was in DC on 9/11." It’s unclear why he stressed this point, since Clinton never said anything different in the statements under review. But you know what liars those Clintons both are! Atrios then reinforced John’s larger complaint. "Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, never has, never will," he wrote. "It's historically inaccurate and, frankly, racist to suggest otherwise."

                  Wow! We’re so old that we can remember when we needed Ken Mehlman for this sort of work! Clinton said something in Iowa last week, and, by the time we liberals got done, one of us was clearly suggesting that she had lied about her whereabouts on 9/11—and he even raised the specter of racism. Another savaged her "outright lie." We used to need Lucianne for this sort of thing. But now, we can do it ourselves!

                  What’s wrong with these screeds by John and Ate? Let’s start with a basic factual point: Clinton’s highlighted comment doesn’t come from the "interview" to which John refers; according to Glover, it comes from a presentation she made at a meeting "with state Democrats at the party's headquarters." We can find no transcript of this event, and we get no real idea, from reading Glover’s story, exactly what Clinton had been asked or had said just before the highlighted statement. Did Clinton suggest, when she spoke with those Iowa Dems, that "Iraq had something to do with 9/11?" That would be extremely odd, since—like every other Dem on the planet—she has long said otherwise. (Beyond that, this comment would surely strike most Dem party leaders as being quite odd.) But Glover’s article doesn’t give us the context of Clinton’s highlighted comment. We don’t think Glover did anything wrong in putting this simple report together. But nothing he wrote can fairly suggest the conclusion John drew from it—the conclusion Atrios seemed to affirm. We can recall when we needed Sean Hannity to crank such attacks against Major Dems. By now, though, we’re all Sean Hannity (or Jim Nicholson). We can slander our own hopefuls now!
                  Have we learned nothing in all these years? Readers, you can’t rely on a perfunctory AP report to provide a perfect account of someone’s statements at a political meeting. Glover doesn’t say that Clinton tied 9/11 to Iraq; John simply drew this inference from Glover’s report, and Atrios soon was thundering with him. And presto! Spin-o! Just like that, Clinton stood accused of telling an outright lie about Iraq and 9/11; seemed to be accused of lying about her whereabouts on 9/11; was said to be just like Cheney; and seemed to be hit with a vague charge of racism. It’s sad to see such familiar work coming from our own major bloggers. Such work became "familiar" when we heard it from Drudge. Now, we produce it ourselves!

                  •  always willing to be proved wrong (0+ / 0-)

                    have sen. clinton (or her peeps) come out with quotes or context?

                    your long excerpt is useless though, except in asserting that we can't know what she really said.

                    ok...but for me to decide that she has been unfairly treated (including by me) kind of depends on what she did say.  and why did carville echo what she "didn't say" rather than deny that she said or thinks any such thing?

                    we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

                    by 2nd balcony on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:30:41 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  An AP reporter prints something (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cpresley, Kirklees

                      that almost no one initially reads as conflating 9/11 with Iraq... except for John Aravosis at AmericBlog who over-reacts. His hysteria is then echoed by Atrios and kos. Then, a couple of days late, Arianna jumps into the fray. Yet not one of them is basing their reactions on anything she actually said... but on an a brief AP report.

                      So know you want Carville to come out and talk about what she didn't say?

                      Did you read the Blitzer/Carville transcript? In context he is talking about her vote as opposed to Kennedy and Graham's vote. And how her decision on the war resolution vote was connected to the "grief of these 3,000 people" that died in the WTC. Nowhere does it state what people are incorrectly inferring - that she is conflating 9/11 and Iraq.

                      I despite Carville and hate the thought of him and Begala having one iota of success on ay future election. I do NOT support HRC in the primary. But let's stick to the facts. That's all I ask.

                      •  And, Carville is not a Hillary adviser (3+ / 0-)

                        Another falsehood in this kos post.

                        Basically, the conflating 9/11 controversy comes down to the bold-faced word below:

                        "As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and I am still dealing with the aftereffects," Clinton said. "I may have a slightly different take on this from some of the other people who will be coming through here."

                        We don't know what 'this' refers to. We simply DO NOT. We don't have a transcript to show us the previous lines in her speech.

                        So, no controversy, right? When you don't know what 'this' refers to, you don't go off accusing someone of conflating 9/11 and Iraq, right?

                        This whole Hillary hatefest is embarrassing and sad.

                        I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

                        by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:53:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Outstanding (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dannyinla

                    Watching my fellow lefties Swiftboat Hillary Clinton is maddening.

                  •  Markos may get a chance to live this down (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dannyinla

                    I am too am getting tired of the bash Hillary train, that always seems ready to leave the station at the drop of a hat.

                    It's one thing when it's posted on the right side of the screen, but to see it FP material over and over again is getting old. Really damn fast.

                    Can we survive furious George's 'Quest For Stupidity'TM?

                    by shpilk on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 08:02:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  it's not the lying it's the abuse of our troops (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sck5, dinazina, berith, cometman

                why didn't she think of them before her career.  i'm sorry, i respect many things about mrs clinton, but the only experience my candidate needs to get my vote is the experience of doing the right thing when the pressure is put on to do the wrong thing, to stand up for the millions who begged these people not to take us to war.   there are lots of them.  i will never vote for any democrat, no matter how much i respect much of their careers, i do this out of respect for every american and every innocent iraqi who have lost life, limbs and loved ones because of this catastrophic war.  no do overs with war, she is way, way way to smart to not have know what my whole family knew.

                DEAN, OBAMA, GORE, WEBB, just a few names of americans who didn't okay this lunitic to ruin our country.... every bid of this damage was predicted.  sorry hill, you lostme.

                Confusis Said: Once you embark on a journey of revenge, dig 2 graves.

                by bluecayuga on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:34:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree (9+ / 0-)

            I think it speaks to a state of mind that she can't come out and say, "I made a mistake." Why is that so fucking hard? She waited, like too many others, for the polls to show discontent with Iraq before she finally started to speak up. And she can bite me with her 9/11 references. That is reprehensible behavior.

            She runs to the middle time and again. She cavorts with those who want to stay in the middle and, in the end, achieve nothing other than to hopefully remain in power.

            I know he's not running, but compare HRC to Sen. Feingold. It's night and day. One is a true leader, one is a true politician. At least Edwards and Obama have shown semblance of leadership.

            If forced to, I will vote for her if she is the Democratic nominee. But until then, I will throw my support, as I suspect many others here will, to those who demonstrate they really are about positive, progressive change.

            Man, I fuckin' hate politics.

            by Whigsboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:22:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well. . . (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              heartofblue, Whigsboy, PhillyGuy03

              I think it speaks to a state of mind that she can't come out and say, "I made a mistake." Why is that so fucking hard?

              I don't know, but I can speculate.  Of course, it is hard to apologize for a mistake -- let's see if we ever get apologies from the people who endorsed the ridiculous comment about Clinton having Lieberman's position on Iraq.  Hah.  Apologies for some, stubborn silence for others!

              But I think the bigger issue is this -- are people really going to vote for a Presidential candidate in the general election who says "Hey, look at me, even I know I can't trust my own judgement!"?  Edwards is betting yes -- by saying he was wrong to have voted for (and sponsored) the IWR he's hoping that people will see him as honest and willing to make mistakes.  I think Clinton believes otherwise.

              (For the record, I tend to agree with Edwards on this, but I thought the public would embrace Dean as well, so what do I know?)

              I know he's not running, but compare HRC to Sen. Feingold. It's night and day. One is a true leader, one is a true politician.

              That's certainly true.  But there's a reason why Feingold took himself out of the race.  It's because he knew he couldn't win.  The next election will be won by a politician, so better get used to it.

              Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:28:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you admit (0+ / 0-)

                you are compromising on principle to vote for what you think is the easier win? I am not saying it is wrong, but I do appreciate the honesty.

              •  good points, but about Feingold (0+ / 0-)

                I don't know if Feingold got out because he didn't think he could win. He would have really strong support from the Netroots and is such an effective, straightforward speaker, that, if a few things would have bounced his way, so to speak, I think he could have made a real run at it.

                I think he didn't run because he felt the next two years were crucial on many fronts, particularly with the Dems in control of Congress, and that, even with a presidential election on the horizon, he could get far more accomplished if he wasn't running for office.

                Perhaps that's naive, but he really doesn't seem to be a fundamentally honest guy who isn't interested in power or credit, just being able to achieve positive change.

                Man, I fuckin' hate politics.

                by Whigsboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:27:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  No Brotosh politician (0+ / 0-)

              apologized for getting into ww1.  And that had millions of needless casualties.  I don't want her to a servile politician to my opinion. She hasn't been pandering to anyone. She's adjusted her opinion as the facts have changed in Ira q and as certain facts have been debunked.

              I didn't think the invasion was right, I thought that there were no WMD, and I think we should get out now. I'm not so full of self importance that I can't see the reality of her position. She's had to deal with the realiy of a murderous executive that had a majority for most of her term.

            •  This Is the Problem (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jfm

              She waited, like too many others, for the polls to show discontent with Iraq before she finally started to speak up.

              It was obvious within a year that Iraq was turning into a disaster.  Hillary kept right on voting to fund the war.  Her stance didn't change until it was obvious last year that support for the war could carry a high price.

              In the end, for me at least, it isn't the fact that she can't admit making a mistake.  It's the fact that she made it to begin with. We have 3,100 dead Americans because people like Hillary Clinton failed to exercise due dilligence.

              Somehow, Hillary's position always seems to be the most expedient at the time.

          •  Where's her Iraq plan to get us out? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            adigal

            That's the only thing that's really important here.  Her current Iraq plan is insufficient.

            •  As far as I know. . . (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              carrieboberry, heartofblue, cpresley

              Clinton is the only Presidential candidate who has said unequivocally that if we're still in Iraq when she takes office, she would bring us out.

              As to her current plan?  That's a perfectly fair question to ask.  If you think eight months is the right amount of time, but fourteen months is too long (or whatever the various election oriented plans say), you're certainly entitled to base your vote on that.  As long as you are accurately reporting the candidate's plans.

              Which the comment I'm replying to didn't.  Because, as you state, Clinton has a plan to leave Iraq -- even if you think it insufficient -- and Lieberman is dedicated to staying there.

              Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:33:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm for setting a date (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LarryInNYC

                Give or take a few months does not concern me.  I know for a fact that Hillary's plan does not set a date for withdrawal, or even the principle of negotiating a date, and therein is the problem with her plan.  I'm also still sore that neither she nor Obama voted for the Kerry/Feingold amendment (Jun '06) which did set a date along with massive diplomacy.  Obama now supports setting a date; I hope Hillary will follow (but let's face it -- the operative word is follow.  She has never been a leader on Iraq.)

                •  Thank you. . . (0+ / 0-)

                  for your 100% factual comment.  This is the kind of fair, accurate opinion I come to dKos to read, and I would say that even if I didn't agree with everything you said, which I do.

                  (Well, except for Hillary setting a date.  Even if her Senate plan doesn't set a date she has clearly set a 22 month deadline with her statement that she'll end the war if Bush doesn't).

                  Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

                  by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:41:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess you have a point there that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dannyinla

                    she said she'll end the war come 2009, if elected, but I hope that she and the others running see what good groundwork Kerry is laying in the SFRC in how to get out.  I like Feingold, but it's about more than cutting funding -- there has to be a real plan on how to get our troops out, while not letting the region fall into chaos.

                    (I am undecided for the '08 primary, just to disclose)

                    •  her legislation focuses on the logistics (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LarryInNYC, cpresley

                      of getting our troops out. Here is her recent speech on the subject:

                      http://clinton.senate.gov/...

                      She has stated that it is Bush's job to end this war, and her legislation proposes a congresional reauthorization if, after 6 months, Bush is not making progress towards winding down this war. She has specific terms about what "winding down this war means" including undoing the de-Baathification process and certifying that the Iraqi army is militia free.

                      Her plan to end the war may not be accurately covered here on dkos, but she does have one.

              •  "Clinton is the only Presidential candidate..." (0+ / 0-)

                "who has said unequivocally that if we're still in Iraq when she takes office, she would bring us out."

                That's what Nixon said too. Remember the secret plan?

          •  Being against the war (0+ / 0-)

            Being against the conduct of the war and being against the war are are not one and the same thing.  Anyone seriously against war will propose concrete steps to end it.  That is what Obama, Edwards, and others are doing.  Her equivocation is really just a symptom of dependence upon the corporatist elite, whether it be the military-industrial complex in Iraq (and Iran) or big pharma in thwarting any effective move toward single payer health insurance.  Keep the monied interests happy, no matter how many people die in the process.

          •  hmmm... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dinazina, rsie, moosely2006

            ...people have shown me quotes from Hillary where she actually seems to say that the war was wrong... and I admit I was not aware that Hillary had uttered that kind of criticism. But I have seen her many times, defending the war, saying she is positive that there will be a military victory and saying the US has to "finish what it started" in Iraq.

            Basically, Hillary has offered critique against how Bush started this war and how he has managed the war, but not criticized the idea of a preemptive, unilateral war on Iraq in itself.  

            Hillary has also tried to make the connection between the war in Iraq and the war on terror and even 9/11, and seems to be arguing that the decision to vote for the war was a good decision at the time (thus making a vote against the war a bad decision).

            So no, her position is not Lieberman's or Bush's. Rather it is the typical triangulation position: take what the majority of the American people think at the moment, then take the GOP's point of view and position yourself in between these two opinions and express yourself as vaguely as possible.

          •  she proposed her own flag burning bill (4+ / 0-)

            a blatant triangulatory sop to the right.  The furor here was rampant and well deserved.  Your comment is deflective of that pandering episode and shows that you are willing to paint her in a rosy progressive light that she doesn't inhabit.

            Her position on the war is that, after all we know now, it was wrong to go in but that she made the right choice at the that, not knowing what everbody on this site and millions of others were pleading at the time: Iraq is a bullshit deal and only bullshitters will back the deal.

             

            Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

            by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:49:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  THANK YOU. Yup, uh huh! (0+ / 0-)

              precisely.

              In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

              by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:38:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The bill was a meaningless (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              heartofblue, tigercourse

              reproduction of existing federal common law on flag-burning mixed with destruction of property (and so on). That bill provided cover for a few Senators who would've otherwise helped to pass the flag-burning amendment.

              The bill stopped the Amendment.

              But go ahead, have fun, call her all the names the Republicans want us to call her.

              I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

              by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:59:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  meaningless? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jfm

                At least we now know Hillary's perspective.

                Maybe you weren't here when she pulled that one (I don't have the rudimentary chops to find the fp diary that day, maybe someone else can come up with it).  The folks on this blog took great umbrage at that "meaningless" ploy which was an outright sop to the wingnuts.  This is exactly what makes her so dangerous.  She is the quintessential game player.  We need a straight shooter leading us now, not a process manipulator.  The job ahead is so immense that anybody who can't call a spade a spade will do us no good.  

                By the way, after several such exchanges with you, fairleft, I went to your blog and noted your banner:

                My "big fundamental" is that being left means working for a more egalitarian, democratic society, but also for fairness, not ethnic or other kinds of favoritism. Because the left has turned away from fairness it is lost and unpopular. I'm a small voice hoping to push the left back toward its basics and its natural popularity.

                Hmm.  We are lost and unpopular???  Then what does that make Hillary, who got absolutely the most disasterous decision in our lifetimes absolutely wrong while we (the lost souls of the left, waiting only for fairleft to set us "right") got it absolutely spot-on?  And unpopular?  Have you ever looked at the number of hits this site gets compared to any DLC related site anywhere?  Maybe after the last election you might, like Hillary, want to amend your statement just a bit.  

                I also noted in one of your posts there that you find the Minutemen more persuasive on immigration than Barbara Ehrenreich and Tom Engelhardt.  

                No wonder you are a Hillary apologist, maybe the most agressive of those to post here.  In your blog you call those of us who yearn for real progressive politics "politically correct."  But that is what Rush Limbaugh calls us, if I recall.  I thought you said we shouldn't be parroting the right when we criticize each other? Or does that just apply to real liberals criticizing neolibs like Hillary?  

                By the way, this isn't fun, having to rehash her many faults because folks like you continue to plead her mangled case here.  At least I know what kind of "lefty" I'm dealing with now.  

                Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

                by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:50:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  one more thing (0+ / 0-)

                to characterize her flag burning bill as you have describes a political approach that can be most accurately called "co-dependent."  At least we now have a name for Hillary's dysfunction.

                Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

                by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  It is NOT too late... (5+ / 0-)

          she has pretty much lost the window of opportunity.

          Its too late now, too.

          There is NOTHING she can say now.

          at this late stage, I think an admission of "mistake" at this point would do her more harm than good.

          There appears to be growing consensus that Hillary can't come clean and admit that her vote was a mistake. There are two reasons why this is not, and must not, be true.

          • The American people have short attention spans. A talented campaign strategist should be able to steer Hillary into a satisfactory admission and, over the months ahead, they could make the public either accept her new position or forget the old one.

          It gives me no pleasure to assert the above, but it's true. And for me, it does nothing to attract me to a Clinton candidacy, but I'm not the target audience.

          • We must not foreclose on the opportunity to repent. I still want to see all stragglers on this issue see the light. I don't even care if it's genuine. The gesture is important and building moment will have an overall beneficial effect.

          If Hillary falls in line it will help others to make similar statements. Even if it doesn't help her candidacy, it does bring us closer to a united front that accepts the folly of past decisions to write president's blank checks.

          While I almost certainly will not vote for Hillary in the primary, I'd welcome her in to the ranks of those who regret that vote and regard it as a mistake.
          .

          • Visit News Corpse
          • The Internet's Chronicle of Media Decay.

          by KingOneEye on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:05:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's too much obsession with HRC (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            moosely2006

            given that we are a year away from any election. Work for an alternative.

            As Harold Meyerson writes in today's Washington Post Hillary has a huge Ed Muskie problem.

            There are a few of us here old enough to have witnessed how he was dogged by his record on another unpopular war and how his candidacy collapsed. The past is prologue!

            "There is no 'policy' regarding a crime except to stop it." -- Dave925

            by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:27:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  are you sure that's why the Muskie campaign fell? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cpresley

              The Muskie campaign, eh? It really wasn't about his Vietnam stance. Myerson's ignoring some key history.

              from Wikipedia:

              The collapse of Muskie's momentum early in the 1972 campaign is also attributed to his response to campaign attacks. Prior to the New Hampshire primary, the so-called Canuck Letter was published in conservative New Hampshire newspaper, the Manchester Union-Leader. The letter claimed that Muskie had made disparaging remarks about French-Canadians – a remark likely to injure Muskie's support among the French-Canadian population in northern New England. Subsequently, the paper published an attack on the character of Muskie's wife Jane, reporting that she drank and used off-color language during the campaign. Muskie made an emotional defense of his wife in a speech outside the newspaper's offices during a snowstorm. Though Muskie later stated that what had appeared to the press as tears were actually melted snowflakes, the press reports that Muskie broke down and cried were to shatter the candidate's image as calm and reasoned.[4]

              Evidence later came to light during the Watergate scandal investigation that, during the 1972 presidential campaign the Nixon campaign committee maintained a "dirty tricks" unit focused on discrediting Nixon's strongest challengers. FBI investigators revealed that the Canuck Letter was a forged document as part of the dirty tricks campaign against Democrats orchestrated by the Nixon campaign.[5].

              GOP Dirty Tricks: The common strand, then and now? Karl Rove.

        •  amen and amen (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adigal, moosely2006

          If only she would pander to her own party's base from time to time.  "I'm in to win!"???  How about, "I'm in to serve the people," or something like that that shows it really isn't all about Hillary(!)?

          (Sudden Snark Attack:)

          And when is someone going to do something about the plague of burning American flags we all suffer from on a daily basis.  Is there a Senator brave and upstanding enough to put an end to this epidemic?  Hillary?  Are you there?  Save us Hillary!  We are all choking on the acrid smoke.  

          Oops.  That smoke seems to be coming from another source.  Carville and McAuliffe should take the fire extiguishers behind her podium to put this one out.

          (Snark Attack subsides)

          Bow out now before we bring you to your knees, Hillary.  You represent everthing that has gone wrong with our party over the last decade, all the shifting of the "center" to somewhere right of Ghengis Kahn  and all the stooping to poll-driven policy and the corporatization of our government and, yes, the unapologetic pandering to the worst in our civic discourse.  

          God help us if you get the nod.

          Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

          by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:23:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  nay (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cpresley

            God help us if you get the nod.

            God help us if the GOP is victorious in November 2008. We've gotta avoid cutting off the nose to spite the face.

            •  she is not our nose (0+ / 0-)

              if she was, she would have smelled a rat during the leadup to this war.  And if she gets the nod, we will most likely be handing the job back to the GOP because her negatives are so strong and enduring on both the right and on the left.  She is the worst choice politically and tactically.

              Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

              by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:57:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  correction: Biden would be worse (0+ / 0-)

                because with Hillary, we would at least have the first woman President.  For me, now, that is her one strong point.  It isn't enough, however, to allow me to endorse someone who would be so wrong otherwise.

                Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

                by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:01:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Long after things went bad (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pelican, Lesser Dane, moosely2006

          As we who oppose this debacle were trying to get heard, Senators Clinton and McCain were interviewed by Russert one Sunday morning. They were on a trip to Afghanistan. Senator Clinton actually stood there and said that this liberation was wonderful, wonderful, for the women of Afghanistan and Iraq.

          Now I know how to read, so of course I knew what was actually happening to the women in Iraq if they were alive.

          I couldn't believe that Senator Clinton was giving the bush administration this much cover for this mess.

          Un-fucking-belieavable at times; that's Senator Clinton.

        •  That is baloney. She has called for a phased (5+ / 0-)

          withdrawal almost 2 years ago.  She explicitly stated when she voted for AUMF that she does so do give the UN a better vehicle to get inspectors back into Iraq and with the explicit statement that she was taking Bush and Powell by their words that they would exhaust diplomatic means first, that war was only a last resort.  

        •  They have all made mistakes. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley, tigercourse

          Yes, Senator Clinton was wrong with her vote on the war.  Sentor Obama was wrong when he endorsed Todd Stroger for Cook County Board President last fall (helping the most unqualified candidate ever to seek the office win by a narrow margin, which has resulted in Toddler's padding his payroll with relatives and political cronies in high-paying jobs, even while demanding draconian cuts in health care and justice services to the 5.4 million people of the county... all in less than three months in office).

          None of the Democratic Presidential candidates are perfect.  The sooner all of you realize that, the greater the chance is of ousting the Republicans completely in 2008.

          •  oh. for craptacular balderdashery's sake! (0+ / 0-)

            Sentor Obama was wrong when he endorsed Todd Stroger for Cook County Board President last fall ...

            Todd Stroger was the Democratic Party's nominee. Did you think that Barack Obama could have afforded to endorse the GOP candidate? Really?

            If so, there's a bridge over the Fox River that I've got an option on. High traffic, great revenue opportunity. I'd consider letting you buy half interest at a really great price ...

            •  At Sunday's rally for Obama, (0+ / 0-)

              when Todd Stroger's name was mentioned, a loud chorus of boos disrupted the proceedings.  

              Obama is choosing to ally himself with Mayor Daley and his allies, including the likes of Todd Stroger.  Whether that helps Obama or blows up inhis face politcally remains to be seen.  However, attacking a candidate for public pronouncements of support for another public official is fair game.  After all, how many Kossacks have attacked Sen. Clinton for her past support of Sen. Lieberman?

              Note that I am totally uncommitted to a Presidential candidate at this time, other than to support a Democrat.

      •  Put a fork in her she's done (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        crkrjx, adigal, moosely2006
    •  That's the basic problem (11+ / 0-)

      By refusing to admit that she made a mistake (read: refusing to buck her consultants who tell her that "mistake" is not a word she can use) she risks becoming the same as Bush--a stubborn person who refuses to admit mistakes and by doing so is unable to portray herself as able to learn from experience.  

      Too stubborn and too proud--that sums it up.  And who wants another President with that cxharacter flaw?

      It isn't too late for her to get over this, but if she doesn' within the next month or so, it is going to eat up her candidacy.

      "False language, evil in itself, infects the soul with evil." ----Socrates

      by Mimikatz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Even that won't help. Her ultimate problem is... (26+ / 0-)

        ... that the truth will not set her free.  Because the truth is, and I believe everybody knows this, is that her Iraq vote was a cold political calculation, that the US would win the war and not have real problems thereafter, and to oppose same would make her look "weak."

        So, if she ever really does tell the truth, that is the day her campaign is over.

        •  The nub of it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          moosely2006, jfm

          New Deal hits it on the head.  This starkly highlights that HRC will choose doing what is politically expedient over doing "what is right."  In other words, she was more concerned about protecting her career than anything else.  And some people may think that's a good thing - that politics is about compromise and always obeying the will of the people.  But i think there are a lot of people (voters) who are starved for someone who is willing to sacrifice their career to do what is right.

          Note: Bush/Cheney's continuing fueling of the iraq debacle doesn't count as this kind of principled leadership because 1. they're not sacrificing any career - they're both done and 2. they wrong - and deludedly so.

          •  Thanks.Others downthread have made the same point (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wystler, moosely2006, jfm

            but I appreciate the compliment.

            90% of everybody here knows why Hillary Clinton cast that 2002 vote.  But, since telling the truth would destroy her campaign, she has to come up with the same kind of flannel-mouthed flim-flammery that Kerry did in 2004.  And it doesn't pass the smell test, it doesn't ring true.  It's not a clear, simple statement -- because she doesn't dare state the truth.

            End of story.

        •  yeah the pols thought it would be a push over. (0+ / 0-)

          Calculation?  Not really. half the army thought it would be push over too. Some thought it would drag on and they resigned.

          •  really? (0+ / 0-)

            iirc, the brass wanted a much bigger force to try to make the invasion and occupation work, but the neocon civilians got to call the shots, and they went with an undersupported blitzkrieg approach that left unsecured weapons and other materiel, as well as private property, public works, and national treasures, subject to looting ...

            it's not beyond imagination that it could have worked if well-planned ...

            (just don't assume, though, that because i offered counterpoint, that i ever supported the notion of this elective war)

            •  fer fecks sake. (0+ / 0-)

              search my recent comments. I'm having an argument with someone about that very issue in this thread. (500,000 troops at least were needed in 2003 to occupy streets and buildings according to Army estimates.) We both agreed that the invasion was a sin, but then I went on to say that 500,000 troops may have made the occupation a success of sorts. Then I got ear bashed for saying that! Blamed for supporting the war, lumped in with McCain etc.  The person was full of shit.

              Shinseki resigned over this issue so I know the score.

              Zinni gamed the war and predicted a defeat. They were a minority opinon with in the military.  But they were both correct.

              I've been following the war closely.  I think would be king making Dems are melting down over Hillary and it's disturbing to see the infighting. Our own army wanted this unfair fight, they got it and now it's a lost cause.

          •  people who though "pushover": (0+ / 0-)

            disrespectful of history.

            Maybe this time the lesson will sink in a little, hey? Probably not, too bad.

            They will learn if there is pain associated - like having to explain over and over why she cast such a wrong-headed vote.

            an ambulance can only go so fast - neil young

            by mightymouse on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:33:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have an inside track on the... (0+ / 0-)

              ...thinking at the time. I know an Historian called Lawrence Freedman. He's a British military historian. He wrote the Chicago Manifesto that Blair delivered in the late nineties laying out the causes for which a democratic liberal state could intervene in a genocidal situation. He's basically a policy maker and is now a critic of the war in journals like FP.

              From discussions with him it seemed clear that the ease with which the Taliban fell, provoked the Generals in the UK and the US to think that Saddam would be a cakewalk if armour was used.  

              These were heady days.  Bush and Blair were virtually unstoppable and military force was intoxicating.

    •  I wonder which is Hillary's best option: (9+ / 0-)
      1. coming clean and admitting she was wrong; or
      1. continuing on the current obstinate path.

      Kos is right that, if she were to come clean, the pandering meme might gain currency. But what if she both came clean and made a compelling case for her sincerity? There's arguably a place of endearment in U.S. culture for prodigal sons (and maybe even daughters) coming home and making right after having done so wrong. I wonder if Hillary could pull that off.

      This, of course, is to say nothing of what would be the right thing to do; of what course of action might display genuine character. That Hillary's coming clean would be the right course of action is not, I suspect, the priority of her advisors.

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  continuing on the current obstinate path (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah, dannyinla

        Is the best option, otherwise she becomes a caricature of JKerry and MRomney - flip-flop,

        I'd rather be obstinate and in denial a la dumbya.

      •  Right Personality? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dunderhead, moosely2006

        I know that Nixon managed to survive his sour grapes speech in 1962, so anyone should be able to recover, but still, Senator Clinton will still need to come across as a changed Senator, one who is willing to listen and learn.

        Maybe if she gave us a list of political things that she learned. Say, for example, that she also disavows her absurdly complex health care proposal and went with a straight single payer universal coverage proposal, people in the Democratic Party might not think that she spends her entire life triangulating.

        •  and no one even said anything about her dog yet. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freelunch

          we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

          by 2nd balcony on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:37:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  and don't forget about this... (0+ / 0-)

          she has put a dagger into publicly funded campaigns.

          Little noticed amid the announcement rollout was a page on her Web site in which she asked potential contributors to give her campaign checks of up to $4,200. That figure signaled not only that she plans to forgo public funds for primary season but also that, if she becomes the nominee, she will not take public money for the general election.

          and then it goes on to say

          Others have opted out of public financing for the nomination campaigns, but Clinton is the first since the current structure was created in 1974 to declare she will forgo public financing in the general election as well.

          The result of this move is now forcing the other candidates to follow suit to keep up with her. She has started a campaign funds race. If she was a true leader, instead of someone just trying to acquire power, she would see that this is exactly opposite to what the country needs to accomplish. The private money in politics is the single biggest issue that we have before us. Without true public financing of campaigns all the discourse in this diary as well as all others is meaningless because anybody that is elected will be beholden to their lords and masters, and that ain't us.

          And that is why, among the other things stated in this diary, I can't support her.

          Sorry this is a little off-topic, but it's something that I am passionate about.

          It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress. Mark Twain

          by rsie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:50:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  admitting she was wrong (4+ / 0-)

        won't cut it at this stage.  Its been brutally obvious shes been wrong for a looong time now.  Pandering wouldn't even begin to describe it.  

        I'd recommend she apologize profusely and come clean on the reasons for her support of this policy and the reasons for her refusing to budge from that position.  Maybe she can let us in on the advice given by her consultants, funders, other party leaders or even Bill.  Only she can tell us what she was thinking.  That would take real political courage.  Of course its a huge risk, it might doom her in 08 but then again it might make her stronger.

      •  "Because I'm a Blonde...." (0+ / 0-)

        "....and I just can't tell when a man's lying to me. Just look at Bubba!"

        I might not appease a lot of Dems, but it would snare some of W's base.

      •  While I think there is room (I wouldn't call (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        machopicasso, brklyngrl

        it "endearment") for a president to admit an error (Kennedy after 'Bay of Pigs' and President Clinton after 'Act like Pigs') I don't think that recent history suggests similar results for presidential candidates. I also think there remains a gender-based double standard in our politics which contributes to Sen. Clinton's dilemma. Sen. Kerry can admit a mistake, and perhaps it shows flexibility -- which I find a desirable trait in a leader. But will Sen. Clinton be perceived as 'tough enough' by the general electorate if she is seen to be 'caving in' to the left? It always pissed me off that Margaret Thatcher was so universally lauded for her "toughness." She was an inflexible reactionary, but somehow the MSM decided to call it 'toughness', and it apparently resonated with the voters. Regardless, she remains the most obvious -- if unfortunate -- yardstick for a western democracy considering the election of a woman as its leader.

        •  women (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wystler, zashvil

          I agree with you about the double-standard (ergo the "maybe" in my comment before "prodigal daughters"). In a way, that double-standard makes the stakes higher for her decision on whether or not to acknowledge the mistake. Or maybe if she had come clean a long time ago (when everyone was doing it), then she could have preempted the criticism of weakness which dove tails with that double-standard.

          I'd disagree with this point, though:

          she remains the most obvious -- if unfortunate -- yardstick for a western democracy considering the election of a woman as its leader.

          What aber Germany? Finland? And, perhaps, soon France.

          "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

          by machopicasso on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:52:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  to replace Bush with Hillary would be to (12+ / 0-)

      replace the BlameShifter-In-Chief with the SideStepper-In-Chief

      It's time for a change, a real change!

      we're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression

      by Lepanto on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:30:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  When she has Carville with Cheney Talking Points (7+ / 0-)

      What does it matter.

      What we need to hear now is:

      • Carville is an idiot and should shut up on such nonsense.
      • My bad. (No further attempts to justify)
      • Clear statements about what needs to be done today and tomorrow.
      •  She has to cut Carvile loose (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        heartofblue, leonard145b, TomP, brklyngrl

        In spite of what people say here, she opposed actually doing the invasion right up until it happened (she said we needed more evidence to go in). Outside of the echo chambers, she's not attached to the Iraq war. But Carville's trying to lash her to the Iraq war anchor, and she'll go down with it if she lets him. She needs to put out a denial as fast as she did with her South Carolina supporters saying Obama would kill the party by being black. Carville's become a huge liability for her.

        •  Someone should take Carville out for a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          long ride in the woods.

        •  Say, WTF?! (0+ / 0-)

          She opposed actually doing the invasion right up until it happened.

          The only thing that counted (and everyone knew it at the time) was a vote, Yea or Nay. HRC voted Yea--authorizing W to go to war with Iraq any time he alone saw fit. Hell, he was already moving troops on October 10, 2002. It defies belief to think that anyone voting Yea did not believe that they were voting to go to war with Iraq.

          "There is no 'policy' regarding a crime except to stop it." -- Dave925

          by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:35:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bush's actions were unprecedented (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            heartofblue

            Even by him - he used the Al Qaida AUMF properly against Afghanistan. And rhetoric does count. Oddly, the vote wouldn't have - Cheney has made it clear they'd have gone to war anyway. The vote was a political ploy by the Republicans to use the (then) overwhelming popularity of Bush's "War on Terror" for political advantage by wedging the Dem party. It worked then, getting them the Senate, and, amazingly, it's still working now, in this thread.

        •  Carville doesn't work for Hillary! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Partially Impartial

          This is a false statement in kos's post, as far as I can tell from a google search.

          I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

          by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:01:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with Carville (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        heartofblue

        I personally wrote Hillary and told her that if she had voted not to give authorization merely on a gamble that Bush would be wrong, as a New York constituent, she would not have gotten my vote for re-election as Senator. My reasoning was, it was o.k. (and easy) for other senators from other states not directly impacted by 911 (such as  Illinois) to vote NO but no New York congressman or Senator had that luxury. Besides, Hillary's daughter Chelsea was jugging not far from the twin towers when the airplanes hit. I feel that if I were in her position I would have voted the way she did -  every time. The mistake is George Bush's - who misused the authority he was granted and persecuted a war in worse than 'Katrina' style.

      •  Should Hillary's theme song be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adigal

        The wreck of the old No. 9   with Casey "Carville" Jones at the throttle. The smugness and audacity of these people makes me wanna puke. Their damned paternalistic attitude is to much. But if she gets the nod I will hold my nose and vote for her.

    •  But Did She Make A Mistake? (5+ / 0-)

      Serious question here.

      I wasn't in the briefings she and other Senators got back then, so I have no idea as to what she was told re any connection between Iraq & 9/11.  Her state was attacked and she wanted revenge.

      Given what she was probably told back then, and the fact that her state was attacked (IMHO) she didn't make a mistake with that vote.  She's already said if she knew then what she knows now she wouldn't have voted the way she did.

      That's good enough in my book.

      My concern now is to move forward and fix what's been done.  I could give a shit about blame games at this point.

      •  I agree that the present is more important (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        orchid314, adigal

        However, Mrs. Clinton's CURRENT Iraq Plan is a poor one and frankly, I am unsure if it will get our troops out of immediate danger since she seems to want to target Iraqi forces funding.  She also does not set a clear date for our forces to get out of Iraq.  The Obama plan is far superior, and clearly echoes the Iraq Study Group and Kerry's ideas from 2004-06.

      •  The problem is really (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        berith, Janet Strange, adigal

        what it says about her. Billary voted to send American soldiers to die so that she might maintain her political viability. I would like to think that she is simply dumb enough to be taken in by bush and his "evidence". However, the reality is that she is a coward, more interested in doing the politically viable thing, rather than the right thing. This is not the kind of person you want running the country. She is just like her husband, a triangulating cipher, interested only in her own power. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is.

        Gore 2008: Accept NO Substitute!

      •  revenge = key word (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adigal, stanley63

        Revenge ought never drive policy decisions. It clouds judgement. The issue isn't a "blame game" about who is at fault for us being in Iraq. For those of us who always understood the likely consquences of such behaviour, it is a question of judgement and trust. I cannot trust Hillary Clinton's judgement regarding how international military actions will play out.

      •  she's way to smart to not have known this was (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sck5, by foot

        going to be a disaster.... she doesn't play dumb very well.

        let's put someone in who loves the country more than their career, please?

        GORE, OBAMA, WEBB, DEAN, THEY KNEW IT WAS A MISTAKE, AND YOU CAN ADD TO THIS GROUP, ALL GREAT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES

        JJJJEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

        Confusis Said: Once you embark on a journey of revenge, dig 2 graves.

        by bluecayuga on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:01:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Based on your framing, yes she did (0+ / 0-)

        make a mistake.

        It is absolutely outside the bounds and protocols of her job, and outside her oath of office as a Senator for the people of New York, to undertake some scheme for revenge for 9/11 by granting George Bush the authority to wage war on Iraq.

        War is the supreme decision of an elected official-- it is, in effect, the instituting of the death penalty for a massive number of people.  

        If she undertook that decision with the lack of gravity that you are suggesting, it was an unconscionable lapse of leadership.  I, for one, hope that your framing is not what actually went through her head.

        •  My Word - Not Hers (0+ / 0-)

          So maybe I used the wrong wording and I certainly can't speak for her or any other Senator on this vote.  I'm just guessing.

          Just as anyone else here is guessing.

          Face it - none of us know for sure what she and other Senators were told in the months after 9/11.  Unless we were in those rooms, sitting in on the briefings - we're all just guessing.

          In all honesty - I really don't understand this hard-on people seem to have about Clinton.

    •  Our Three Choices (8+ / 0-)

      Al Gore, Wes Clark, and Barack Obama.

      These are the three candidates who were right in 2002, were right in March of 2003, and are right now.

      These are the three who showed the judgment.  These are the three who showed the vision.  These are the three who showed the leadership.  And these are the three who showed the courage to assert it.

      And as a result, these three allow us to fight the 2008 campaign from the greatest position of strength and rightness.

      Any other candidate returns us to a wishy washy flip floppy for-it-before-I-was-against-it campaign.  

      •  Clark and Clinton were not very far apart (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cpresley

        pre-war. He was concerned that we would not have the forces to suceed (right) and should wait. He was not vehemently opposed to an attack. Furthermore, he believed that there were WMD's.

        •  They were miles apart. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pelican, berith

          His House and Senate testimony, in part, convinced Kennedy and others to vote No, and they've said that publicly. Part of his argument was that we were not prepared for the aftermath, but it wasn't his only argument. He had many.

          He urged them many times in his Senate testimony to not give the president a blank check, to narrow the resolution.  He even brought up the spectre of Iran, and was concerned whether the broad language of the resolution could widen the war later.  (prescient, anyone?)

          His House testimony prompted Richard Perle to viciously attack him on the floor, calling him confused and wildly optimistic about what the inspectors could accomplish.  Perle had no doubt as to what Clark was trying to get Congress to do - vote No.

          Democrats - We refuse to caucus in the missionary position.

          by SaneSoutherner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:12:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  guess what? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cpresley

        none of these guys had to actually vote to authorize force in fall 2002.

    •  # carville is an ass for doing this and #2 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sck5, mjd in florida, The Lager Lad

      i'm sorry, i forgive edwards and those who said it was  a 'mistake' but let's not forget how we begged and begged  and begged them to vote NO.  if they couldn't do the right thing when my 11 year old son knew and marched with millions, i don't want them in the white house.

      don't give me this bull that we must 'get over this' NO.  HERE'S WHO I'LL VOTE FOR:  GORE, OBAMA, HOWARD DEAN, WEBB, Those are the best   and the brightest and let me add, THE BRAVEST!  
      SCREW HILLARY AND THOSE ASS HOLES RUNNINGHER CAMPAIGN.  SUCH DICKS.

      Confusis Said: Once you embark on a journey of revenge, dig 2 graves.

      by bluecayuga on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:46:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it might not be safe (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluecayuga

      to assume that she made a blunder, or an error in judgment, in connection with her IRAQ vote, i.e. her stance, on Bush's belligerent aggression and illegal, unprovoked invasion, and killings. Could it be possible that this was really her choice, that she made a deliberate decision to side with Bush, Lieberman, and the neocons on this issue because this is what she believes, and is therefore really an enabler of Bush's trigger-happy foreign policy? This is in the same vein that some Democrats in Congress are, like a lot of their Republican counterparts, pro big business, pro big oil at the expense of the poor and middle class Americans. Not a lot of people here seem to be asking Lieberman to apologize for being pro-war and pro-Bush, IIRC.

    •  James Carville (0+ / 0-)

      Why does James Carville, a quasi-republican operative, have anything whatsoever to do with any Democratic presidential campaign?

      I thought we weren't going to lose the presidency on purpose this time.

    •  oh shut the fuck up (0+ / 0-)

      you self-righteous idiot.

      hillary is pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-gun control. get over yourself.

    •  That's the problem with Hillary (0+ / 0-)

      Like Bush, she refuses to accept responsibility for her part in this disaster. Both Bush and Hillary will freely admit that things are not going well, but they both want to blame someone else.

      Without congressional approval, this war could never have happened and so anyone who voted for the war and wants to be president must acknowledge their role in starting the war and apologize for it.

      If your name was George Walker instead of George Walker Bush, your candidacy would be a joke.

      by dole4pineapple on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:43:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Get your "mind" checked. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Rethugs have now reached that point in a western where their gun is empty so they throw it at the other guy and run.~loudGizmo

      by Caldonia on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:05:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good news (24+ / 0-)

    If she weren't married to Bill Clinton, no one would consider her as a candidate. I'm sick of nepotism determining Presidential candidates!

  •  Sebelius '08! (4+ / 0-)

         "The un-Hillary."

  •  Boo hoo. (24+ / 0-)

    Mrs. Clinton’s advisers do not relish the idea of someone bringing up her 2002 Senate vote at every campaign stop.

    Tough shit. When you make a bad decision, you have to answer for it.

    Unfortunately, she hasn't yet answered for it in a satisfactory way.

    So, she will continue to hear about it until she locates her backbone and admits to her fuck-up. This is an issue that won't go away, and if she continue to duck and dodge with equivocations and evasions, it's going to continue to erode her supporters until there's no one left.

    Nothing more than she deserves if she continues to evade a simple question.

    We're oft to blame in this--tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage and pious action we do sugar o'er the devil himself.

    by TheBlaz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:18:10 AM PST

    •  How to find a spine without a poll. That is the (8+ / 0-)

      problem.

      Her poll-based stranglution approach to each major issue causes moderates and liberals to cough and look cross-eyed at her campaign. Her IraqNam vote makes us doubt her ability to think independently without taste-testing public opinion.
      Together, she has managed to do two opposite things: 1) she squandered any good will among those who should be her strongest base; 2) she has energized a defeated, defeatist and disorganized opposition.

      Plus, they see her triangulation as pandering, meaning that IT WON'T EFFIN WORK, HILLARY!

      the three legged triangle is strong. A two legged one tilts badly. A one legged triangle is a sex toy available for adventerous lovers of anal sex. Hillary, your cautious, parsed, planned, edited, weighed  and polled positions suck. As does your campaign. May you fade back to the senate and let real leaders step in instead.

      In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

      by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If she can't come to grip (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lepanto

      with this rather simple issue, how is she going to handle much more intense issues as President?

      Hillary is the worst person in the Democratic field.

      "Like the mirror told me this morning, it's all done with people" - Wavy Gravy

      by offgrid on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Better stop doing Q&A's (19+ / 0-)

    'cause they're asking at every campaign stop.

    Or, she could stuff the town halls with supporters-only, a la Bush/Rove.

  •  considering all the old crap (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chuckvw, David Boyle, Autarkh, leonard145b

    the GOP probably wanted to bring up to attack her (hint: her husband) her people should be glad that Hillary's current, biggest hurdle is her reconciling her Iraq vote.

    Politics is the deliberation of one's moral enterprise.

    by Omen on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:18:58 AM PST

    •  The irony is delicious. (5+ / 0-)

      If she had just stood on principle at the time and opposed the war, she would be in a much better position today.

      Think radically, act practically.

      by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:24:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, but she wouldn't ... (20+ / 0-)

        have established herself as one of the "Serious People."  You know, the kind who think it's clever to think of the use of force purely in cost-benefit terms and dismiss questions about legality and morality as so much soft-minded piddle.

        "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

        by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:27:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're assuming that her "principles"... (7+ / 0-)

        would have led her to oppose the war. How do you know? What are her principles? Does she have any? I'm not convinced.  Her principles appear to be determined by political strategy & polls.

        Dulce et decorum est pro taxcutia mori?

        by Shiborg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:38:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Didn't she oppose the Vietnam war? n/t (0+ / 0-)

          Think radically, act practically.

          by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:42:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say she doesn't take positions (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Janet Strange, adigal

            I just question whether or not she does so according to principles. I don't know why she opposed the Vietnam war. Maybe she didn't like it, maybe not. But for a Democrat, opposing that war was pretty safe, at least by the 1970s.

            And even if her position was based on principle, that was more than 30 years ago, plenty of time for principles to dry up and blow away in the face of the winds of political ambition.

            I would love to support her, I really would, but I have no idea what she really stands for, and I have the sneaking suspicion that nowadays she doesn't stand for anything.

            Dulce et decorum est pro taxcutia mori?

            by Shiborg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:53:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Don't get me wrong. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Janet Strange
              I find her focus-group-tested, micromanaged fence straddling to be quite odious. That said, I think that deep down she knew this war was a foolish idea, but voted for it anyway because of perception.

              I'm merely pointing out the irony in the fact that  voting in accordance with principle would have acheived precisely what she sought to accomplish with her calculation.

              Think radically, act practically.

              by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:06:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  yep (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Autarkh

            and she was a staffer on the Watergate committee if memory serves, back when she was wearing those huge glasses. However, opposing the War by the early 70s was largely a safe bet for future politicians; no one wanted to be the last one to die in VN.

        •  she is a hawk (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          berith, terryhutchinson, adigal, Autarkh, jfm

          She is comfortable with this approach, methinks.

          That is what I dislike about her most. I can't deal with these people who think attacking other countries is a good idea. It almost never is.

          It's like they don't understand that once a war starts, it's very difficult to predict how it will end. In other words, you may not achieve the precious "war aim."

          But it's easy to predict that a lot of people will die and a lot of money will get spent.

          an ambulance can only go so fast - neil young

          by mightymouse on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:05:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, she really isn't. In her Iraq vote, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            heartofblue, cpresley

            where she supported diplomatic efforts, she clearly stated she was againt pre-emption and for caution.

            •  I think she is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Autarkh

              A non-hawk would have a much different approach toward dealing with the world's problems. IMHO she is too comfortable with the military approach.

              IIRC, she called for MORE troops in Iraq until sometime in early 2005.

              With reqard to her Iraq vote, it matters more what she voted for than what she said. The subtext seemed to be that whatever, we can always bring these bad countries to heel with our mighty military.

              I'm looking for a candidate with a different approach.

              Anyway, I guess we disagree on HRC ...  

              an ambulance can only go so fast - neil young

              by mightymouse on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:36:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It made sense to have 500,000 troops... (0+ / 0-)

                ...in 2003/2004. Now it really doesn;'t mater. We lost already time to go.

                •  It never made sense to me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  landrew

                  What gives us the right to send 500,000 troops to Iraq? If we violate international law willy-nilly, won't that encourage other countries? How can we criticize terrorists if we act like that?

                  and so on.

                  Not directed at you - but politicians who think it "makes sense" to send half a million US troops to another country like that are a real problem.

                  an ambulance can only go so fast - neil young

                  by mightymouse on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:57:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You can go through the Kos stories.. (0+ / 0-)

                    ...it was widely understood that a massive number of troops at the begining may have allowed the occupation to work. Just maybe. search for 'Shinseki'.

                    Here is my position. I think we should get out of Iraq immediatly. Three months to get everthing and one who can be removed.   At one point however durin gthe occupation in late 2003 there should have been 500,000 troops.   That oportunity passed in mid/late 2004. Events change. what can I say!  Just search shinseki diaries on here. You are acting like a memory hole.

                    •  The ends don't justify the means. (0+ / 0-)

                      What right did we have to occupy a sovereign nation that was no threat to us?

                      No troops should ever have been sent.

                      Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

                      by landrew on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:31:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The right of guns. (0+ / 0-)

                        All is Force and Fraud.  

                        What right does America have to the Southwest?  No troops should have entered Mexico City.

                        Somethings just have to be dealt with. I can't make the Bush invasions go away.

            •  You don't vote for a war based on ideal... (0+ / 0-)

              ...circumstances, but really exiting ones. Anyone who voted to give the chimp authority to go to war should have known full well what they were doing.

              Think radically, act practically.

              by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:43:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes. She said she was against... (0+ / 0-)

              pre-emption, and then she voted for it.  Sound familiar?

              So that's her position .... I gave Bush the authority, you can't blame me if he used it.

              We can do better than that.

              Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

              by landrew on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:27:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  The GOP crap is still waiting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adigal

      If she somehow wins the nomination, they'll go back to the same old smears on her Arkansas finances and her marriage. But I agree that her biggest primary hurdle is Iraq, and it's not a hurdle she can clear. The GOP slime depository will have to manufacture new material for the eventual nominee.

      "What is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?" - J. Madison

      by berith on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:57:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  if she wants to president (14+ / 0-)

    she's gotta "shell down the corn", as my mom used to say...people are sick of double talk and dissembling and being "clever"...your husband was too damn clever for his own good, hillary...and you?

    fascination/repulsion...it's a thin line, baby

    by memofromturner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:19:43 AM PST

  •  You can't call it a mistake (22+ / 0-)

    when by the same reasoning she has not called for immediate (within 6 months) withdrawal, and when she is saying that all options are on the table vis-a-vis Iran.

    Clinton is from the wing of the party that went along with the Iraq war because they are pro-war. Plain and simple.

    My heart goes out to all who suffered needlessly because of this ruinous occupation. End it now.

    by Paul Goodman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:19:48 AM PST

  •  Break em' gently kos :D (12+ / 0-)

    This is why I oppose supporting Sen. Clinton.  I don't support Democrats who f*ck up, I expect more from my politicians, and if our "mainstream" Dem's can't deliver, I'll vote for someone who can (even if they don't have the "big name").  

  •  Yep (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leonard145b

    What you said!

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:20:17 AM PST

  •  Sen. Clinton (6+ / 0-)

    does not care about the base, she is fishing for the independents. The Senator should not take the democrats for granted.

  •  what?! she HAS taken responsibility. (9+ / 0-)

    see recent entries at The Daily Howler for documentation of Hillary's many acknowledgements that her vote was wrong - and she's BEEN saying it.  why on earth does she have to use a particular word?  why is she getting put into a box of a particular word?  I think Somerby has great answers to this - the short summary of which she is being Al Gore'd by the media.  

    No matter how cynical you become ... you can never keep up.

    by LegalSpice on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:20:50 AM PST

  •  I'm so tired of hearing (27+ / 0-)

    "If I knew then what I know now, my vote would have been different."

    The fact is, hundreds of thousands of people held doubts about what we were told by this administration. They were called a 'focus group' by our asshat of a President.

    Sadly, the people's voices still don't seem to matter, even to one who would seek to lead them from the other side of the fence.  

    "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutlidge

    by asimbagirl on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:20:55 AM PST

  •  If she disavowed her vote... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LeftyLimblog, offgrid

    ...and offered something substantially different than any of the other candidates -- while simultaneously giving a convincing explanation for the sudden change -- I think Hillary would be better off than if she continues her waffling.

    Think radically, act practically.

    by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:21:13 AM PST

    •  Hillary Could Even Say... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nailbender, Autarkh

      She gave Bush the benefit of the doubt on 'faulty intelligence' since he was president, but it was a mistake to trust Bush to do the right thing with the authorization.

      That admission still leaves the war hung around the Bush Republican's neck like a rotting albatross, but it opens the door to reconciliation with anti-war Dems.

      I was one of the 'focus groups' who knew the intelligence was A LIE and I will NEVER support someone who can't at least get far enough to admit they made a mistake.

      Hillary may get lots of money from the warmongers, but she leaves lots of us cold and the glaciers are NOT RETREATING.

      And just where are all the folks who think the Iraq Occupation War was a good idea that she is going 'win over', anyway? The Rethugs are not going to vote for Hillary Clenis for anything EVER. There are many Republicans who might not vote for a Dem, but would at least stay home with another Democratic candidate.

      Lefty!!!

      "There is a time for compromise, and it is called 'Later'!"

      by LeftyLimblog on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:06:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  right you are (0+ / 0-)

        her negatives are so pervasive (both left and right) and enduring (I know many lefties - including lots of women - who can't bring themselves to envision pulling the lever for her) that she is truly the riskiest candidate we have (Biden would possibly be less of a risk since he would be a guaranteed loser who couldn't even attract the feminist vote).

        Jorge's a renegade; there's blood on his hands, oil in his arteries and cyanide inside his glands...

        by nailbender on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:19:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Agreed. Not admitting a mistake is far worse than (5+ / 0-)

    making the mistake.  That is pure Dumbya type of stuff there.  He is the king of not admitting mistakes.  As most of us have learned throughout life...starting with being a child is that you are supposed learn from mistakes and try not to repeat them.

  •  If (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    katiebird, chuco35, Bronxist

    She had courage of conviction, and wasn't merely Bill's wife, she'd be worth the attention.  It's not really possible for her to have courage of conviction, since she's still not sure what her convictions are today or might have been yesterday or might become tomorrow.  She's brassy but not courageous.

    She lacks leadership skill. She doesn't inspire, she doesn't have vision, she can't broker agreements and lead disparate opinions to a common ground, she isn't ahead she's merely a widely publicized follower.

    I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote for her.

    •  Brassy? Really? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      Merely Bill's wife? I hate to appoint myself as chief of the sexism police here, but i am not in love with this - especially in combination. We've been over the is-it-nepotism-to-benefit-from-your-husband-when-you've
      worked-to-promote-his-career thing to death, but the merely is a nice touch. And for me brassy is a bit beyond the pale since it is one of those words long used to describe women who are insufficiently deferential.

  •  Exactly (6+ / 0-)

    this is the problem for Senator Clinton, and there isn't a flag-burning ammendment big enough to make people forget it.

  •  She's in a tough spot on that one... (8+ / 0-)

    ...but...Markos...you yourself wrote a book saying that single issue people don't help the party.

    This single issue of war is a big issue, but a single issue, none the less.

    Are you being a single issue person? She may be the best qualified person to run the country, but based upon that single issue, she's not fit in your book?

    Just sayin'.

    The Albany Project. The best damned blog about New York State politics.

    by NYBri on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:22:22 AM PST

    •  Also, isn't it really Bush's fault? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, SkiBumLee, cpresley

      He was the misleader here.

      •  No, he's the decider. (0+ / 0-)

        Wait, if Shrub is the decider, the ultimate decider, really,  then Hillary's vote was only the penultimate decider, and therefore, her vote was meaningless. THAT means that she has no responsibility for the vote. And that she did not make a mistake. Because she does not make mistakes. With a platoon of DC consultants parsing each word, how can she make a mistake? The programming won't allow it!

        In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

        by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:43:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Isn't he (0+ / 0-)

          really the Decidenator?  The carrier landing revealed how he sees himself: somesort of top gun/cowboy/Schwartenegger type who longs to rip off his shirt in news conferences to reveal how ripped he really is.  

          •  oops. sorry. correct. (0+ / 0-)

            Decidenator. kinda rolls off the tongue like beer-fueled vomit, don't it?

            In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

            by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:03:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  You can only control your own decisions. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pelican, berith, adigal

        That's why you can be held responsible for them.  Bush didn't force Hillary to vote for the war.  She herself made that choice.  Yes, in the end, it was Bush who started the war, but Hillary did have the opportunity to give a meaningful vote on whether she thought it was a good idea.  We are all responsible for our decisions and GWB is responsible for the biggest mistake.  Still, if Hillary really opposed the war (she said if she had been President she would not have gone to war), then voting for it cannot really be explained in any other way than that it was a politically expedient vote.  That makes her vote even worse, and she's compounding it by refusing to acknowledge that it was a mistake.  I don't think Carville, Clinton and that entire crowd are political geniuses, and Hillary's strategy on Iraq is mistaken.  You can't learn from mistakes until you acknowledge that they exist.  Hillary seems to be following the Bush strategy of not only being The Decider, but the Perfect Decider.  We all know that human perfection doesn't exist, and anyone who claims that it does is only proving that it doesn't.  Political geniuses?  Clinton won in 1992 because there was a third party candidate who split the Republican vote, and in 1996 Clinton had an opponent who was a cure for insomnia.  Clinton is also not a brilliant speaker.  Of course, he's a very intelligent man and far better than Bush, but he doesn't walk on water, and he made some dreadful mistakes of his own that contributed to the Bush victory in 2000.  I'm tired of Clintons and Bushes.  Please, enough already!

      •  Then why isn't she calling for his impeachment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adigal

        as someone brilliantly said upthread?

        If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will.

        by Yoshimi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:48:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because he won't be impeached and anyone (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          calling for impeachment will get the same backlash that Republicans did in 98 (though there is actual cause for impeaching Bush).

          •  warning: joke ahead (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            curtadams, Lesser Dane

            Sorry but this one appealed to me as to why Bill was impeached while contractors and FOBs (Friends of Bush) are hauling money out of DC in freight carloads:
            It is not impeachable to cheat, steal, or otherwise improperly obtain money.
            It is impeachable to have sex with the President.
            This makes no sense since both sets of individuals involved left DC with a wad of Bill's.    

      •  It's a mistake to follow the wrong leader (0+ / 0-)

        One needs to admit it in order to learn from the experience.

        We've had people who voted for Bush and regretted it posting on DailyKos. They say, I'm sorry, I was wrong. But they didn't have access to the same knowledge and gossip that Senators have. A Senator should have had more insight into Bush's character. Sadly, I think they preferred not to look too deeply into that character, and opted to "trust" him in order to avoid being called "Saddam lovers."

    •  I want to be clear... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      katiebird, baltimoremom, NYFM, cpresley

      ...I was TOTALLY against the war from the first stirrings...and I'm not sure if Hillary would do a good job or not.

      I'm simply pointing out that kos' entire theme of his book was that single issue people miss the big picture...and this is indeed a single issue.

      The Albany Project. The best damned blog about New York State politics.

      by NYBri on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:27:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we want other issues to oppose her on... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYBri, adigal

        ...we can start with her caving in to the healthcare industry over and over, while claiming that she wants to reform it. That's two.

        Or her unwillingness to even talk about revoking all the Shrub's tax cuts and giveaways to the rich. That's three.

        Or her continued use of slimy Republican-lite advisors like Carville. That's four...

        I'm sure others here can come up with additions to the list.

        I want to hear her say the three simple words, "I was wrong." For me it's a matter of character above and beyond the issue of the last war and the next.

        I also want to hear her say, "...and no way am I letting this President con us into another needless war." That would take character too.

        First, oversight; second, investigations; third, impeachments; fourth, war crimes trials!

        by ibonewits on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:55:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  An important single issue (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYBri

        Kos didn't say Sen. Clinton was unfit because of her positions on the war.  He said she should be held accountable for them wherever she goes.  That's recognizing that she may be the best choice for other reasons, while still leaving the ten-ton elephant of Iraq in the room.

        And make no mistake, Iraq is a ten-ton elephant, not because Kos or you or I think so, but because the American people, overwhelmingly, think so.  (Look at the issue polls - Iraq crushes everything else.)

        A Democratic candidate for President in 2008 will have to go to the people, not only in the primary but much more importantly in the general, with some sort of credibility about Iraq, something that will give people confidence that s/he will do more than just say pretty things and then do whatever s/he wants.

        Has Sen. Clinton done that?  I don't think so, not at all - at least not yet.  We can all argue (as we are above) over whether she has adequately explained her vote on IWR and what the motivation for it was, and we can all argue (as we surely will) about whether that explanation is good enough.  But that is only the first stirrings of a first thought of a first step towards building credibility on Iraq.  What people want to hear, and support for this has grown exponentially and is only going to grow stronger, is "we will bring them home, all of them, by x date" - and they want to hear it from someone they trust to implement it.

        They don't just want that - it's not a single issue that drives out everything else - but they certainly want it.  If a candidate can't meet both the commitment and the credibility, they'd better have a lot of other things going for them.

    •  And not even the single issue. . . (7+ / 0-)

      of the war vote itself.  Because, of course, Edwards is excused.

      The single issue involved here has less to do with the war vote than with getting the candidate to toe the official netroots party line, using exactly the preferred language.  It's a power issue, not a political or policy issue.

      I was against the war from the get-go, and against the IWR.  And I lean a bit towards Obama because I like him, but also because he's "clean" on the war issue.  But no matter who I decide to vote for in the primary I'm sure there will be something about them that tons of other people will consider disqualifying.

      Want to prefer another candidate because they voted the right way (or spoke the right way) on the IWR?  Cool.  But let's stop doing McCain's (or Giuliani's) work for them.

      Don't blame me -- I voted for Weicker.

      by LarryInNYC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's about judgement (8+ / 0-)

      And good judgement isn't a "single issue".  Either she believed obvious lies, or was too timid to stand against them.  Either way, it's bad judgement.

      I guess anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough.
      -The DM of the Rings

      by Leggy Starlitz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well.... (0+ / 0-)

        that's not how kos framed it.

        I happen to agree it's about a general approach to governing.

        The Albany Project. The best damned blog about New York State politics.

        by NYBri on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:33:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Again more context (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        curtadams

        A study of the AUMF-Iraq Votes

        No Votes by Senators from Red States
        Byrd (D-WV)
        Conrad (D-ND)  
        Graham (D-FL)

        No Votes by Senators from Red States who were not incumbents:
        Zero

        Democratic Senators Who Voted No Who Were Up For Reelection in November 2002
        Durbin (D-IL)  
        Levin (D-MI)  
        Reed (D-RI)

        All incumbents from very Blue States with very safe seats.

        Democratic Senate Seats Lost in 2002 (one month after vote)
        Max Cleland (Georgia, one term)
        Jean Carnahan (Missouri, appointed)
        Walter Mondale (Minnisota, substituted for Wellstone, RIP)

        Now, I think that most who voted for the AUMF did so because they thought that Saddam was a threat to US interests in the Middle-East (and there were reasons for thinking this other than WMD and these reasons were coming from sources other than the Bush regime), but one has to be realistic and understand the politics of the situation.  As for HRC, she is the senator from NY and New York had suffered greatly on 9/11 (not that Iraq had anything to actually do with 9/11, but that voters would ever get that information given the republican dominance of the federal government was less than likely).  So, it's a bit much to ask a first-term senator from a Red State (or from NY) to vote against the AUMF and commit political suicide given that Bush was going to probably go to war with or without the AUMF.

        •  Wellstone . 'No' and up for reelection nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          philgoblue
        •  Except that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          philgoblue, Leggy Starlitz

          New Yorkers were against the invasion, and NY was a cornerstone of the anti-war movement in the fall of 02 and Spring of 03. Remember the anti-war ralley that spring that garnered almost a million marchers?

          A "no" vote would have set just fine with the majority of her constituents.  

          As a side note, my senator, Senator Feinstein did the same thing.  A huge margin of Californians opposed the invasion but she voted yes anyway.  I have no idea why considering she wasn't in danger of losing her seat and is not running for higher office, but I tell you, I think the bulk of the heat, the incredible pressure to vote "yes" did not come from the electorate nor the lobbyists who stood to gain but from the media.  

          That drumbeat to go to war was so loud in the media that anyone who questioned the invasion was crucified.  We know how good the media is at framing issues, and with the GOP controlling the debate, I see the Yes votes for the IWR as a pure survival move from those who would avoid media criticism.  And, not coincidentally, who knows more about media crucifixtion than Hillary Clinton?  Part of me almost understands her vote, but that doesn't mean I want to promote her for it.

          "We Quake in our Jammies" Bill in Portland Maine

          by Humboldt Jodi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:05:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Nice Edwards Apologia (0+ / 0-)

          I am sure that the thousands upon thousands who have died in the course of the war will at least have one momument to their passing: they will not have died in vain, for they made their sacrifice so that junior Senators from red states could add a point or two to their numbers and maybe survive another term.

          it's a bit much to ask a first-term senator from a Red State (or from NY) to vote against the AUMF and commit political suicide

          No, it is not.  In politics, you either do what is right or you do what is wrong.  Sometime, it's right to do what is expedient.  Wreaking an absurdly violent war is one of those things that you can't explain away with local politics.

    •  This is different... (0+ / 0-)

      It's a primary.

    •  This is not a single issue - this is THE ISSUE (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, berith, Humboldt Jodi

      Sending our country to war is the single gravest moral decision that our leaders make on the people's behalf. I knew that this was a horrible, immoral, illegal plan in 2002 and that it would turn out badly. It's not too much to ask that the next president had the same foresight that I did. I'm just a regular schmuck who kept up with the news and understood the consequences of unilateral invasion of another sovereign. These guys are seasoned politicians who took an oath to represent us in accordance with the Constitution and the rule of law.

      So: Edwards, Richardson, Vilsack, Clinton, Kerry, Dodd, and all others in the vast "centrist" majority that either cast their vote in favor or would have - please pick up your marbles and go home. Your repentance is nice to hear but you have shown that you would make weak-kneed presidents.

      I'm not an Obamamaniac, but he, Kucinich, and Gore are the only ones in this race that have any credibility in my book. So until a true anti-war candidate comes along with the experience to match, I'm holding my nose at the 2008 race.

      •  Just devils advocate here... (0+ / 0-)

        ...because I agree that it is THE issue...but let's say that she was against the war, but was wrong on every other progressive issue...health care, environment, etc....would that one war issue be the only one that mattered...?

        Just asking here. I don't have the answers, nor have I decided who I'm going to support in the primary. I voted for Edwards in the NY primary in '04, because by then, it was all wrapped up for Kerry and I wanted Edwards to keep in the fight.

        The Albany Project. The best damned blog about New York State politics.

        by NYBri on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:19:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  False premise (0+ / 0-)

          The war vote is a proxy for the progressive cause. Here's a list of No votes in the Senate:

          Akaka (D-HI)
          Bingaman (D-NM)
          Boxer (D-CA)
          Byrd (D-WV)
          Chafee (R-RI)
          Conrad (D-ND)
          Corzine (D-NJ)
          Dayton (D-MN)
          Durbin (D-IL)
          Feingold (D-WI)
          Graham (D-FL)
          Inouye (D-HI)
          Jeffords (I-VT)
          Kennedy (D-MA)
          Leahy (D-VT)
          Levin (D-MI)
          Mikulski (D-MD)
          Murray (D-WA)
          Reed (D-RI)
          Sarbanes (D-MD)
          Stabenow (D-MI)
          Wellstone (D-MN)
          Wyden (D-OR)

          With the possible exception of Robert Byrd, who's a wildcard on social issues, can you name one person on this list who you would not trust to protect a woman's right to choose, or to be a good steward of the environment?

          People who opposed the war have, at the core, a sense of decency and forethought that is easily translatable to every other piece of business the Congress has before it.

      •  obama might not have experience (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SaucyIntruder

        but kucinich and gore do.

        of course clinton/gore starved to death a million iraqis with the full blockade of iraq in the early 90s.

        kucinich has been anti-war in every war since he was elected to cleveland city council at age 23.

        kucinich went to lebanon to visit with the families of the dead last year.

        Congressman Kucinich first US Official to Tour Damage in Southern Lebanon

        CLEVELAND (September 1, 2006) Congressman Dennis Kucinich, ranking member on the Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations, and his wife Elizabeth have just returned from a personal peace-building initiative in the Middle East. Their mission included war-torn Lebanon, where they met separately and at length with Lebanon Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, President Emile LaHoud, General Michel Aoun, former Prime Minister and now leader of the Progressive Patriotic Party; Fawzi Salloukh, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Emigrants, Yacoub Sarrat, Minister of the Environment and former Prime Minister Selim Al-Hoss.

        There was unanimity among Lebanese leaders that now is the time to explore multiparty talks with hopes of achieving a breakthrough agreement for peace in the entire region. All felt that political negotiations were key, as opposed to use of force. Each official spoke of the necessity of lifting the blockade, addressing the status of the Shebaa Farms, engaging in an exchange of prisoners with Israel and obtaining maps of areas mined by the Israeli army.

        The couple toured the heavily damaged suburban Beirut area where they witnessed the ruins of thousands of apartment dwellings and hundreds of businesses. Kucinich became perhaps the first US official to cross the Litani River, accompanying a humanitarian mission from the American University in Dubai delivering food, water and medical supplies deep into southern Lebanon.

        "Village after village was reduced to piles of rubble. We saw thousands of destroyed homes. We also saw bombed out hospitals, schools, factories, churches, mosques, fire stations, gas stations, cars, bridges, roads, water systems, electric systems, banana plantations, and lemon groves," Kucinich said.

        "In several villages we stopped and walked through piles of concrete and dust from what had once been homes. Public areas were littered with unexploded cluster bombs and land mines. The smell of death was everywhere. Homes still standing upon closer inspection had holes in the walls from artillery shells."

        One of the most emotionally wrenching moments came at 10 o’clock at night as they arrived in the village of Qana, the Cana of biblical lore where Christ performed the first of his miracles, changing water into wine. One of the greatest tragedies of war befell a house in Qana where a 1,000 pound bomb exploded and collapsed the structure crushing dozens of women and children who had sought shelter in the basement.

        Kucinich and his wife went to pay respects to the dead as a graveyard in the center of the village was lit by automobile headlights. They walked by several rows of graves, each with a picture of someone killed in the bombing. One picture was of four members of the same family. Buried were a mother and her three children. As Kucinich quietly wept, a hand reached around his shoulder to console him. It was the man who lost his wife and three children.

        Kucinich and his wife were led away from the graves across the road and down a very narrow street, over piles of debris from the blast and to the scene of the disaster. Some children’s’ clothing and bomb fragments were still visible in the rubble. A crowd quickly gathered as it was learned that an American congressman had come to the village. Soon nearly fifty villagers surrounded the couple, including many who had lost family members through what they believed was an American-made bomb.

        Elizabeth Kucinich said: "Dennis and I will never forget what followed. Here we stood in the darkness, surrounded by people who suffered great loss, who had every right to express anger or even rage, yet instead they expressed remarkable depth of forgiveness, compassion and a desire for peace and reconciliation, calling out from the crowd through interpreters: "We do not hate America. We love the American people. We do not like what your government does. Please tell the American people that we are not terrorists. We do not hate Israel. We want to be safe in our village. We want to be left alone. We want peace." The couple promised to take the message from Qana back to the United States.

        A last minute flight cancellation forced the couple to travel to Israel overnight, 11 hours by car, across Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. In Israel they met with directors and policy advisors of the State of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem and discussed the war, security and Israeli casualties. The Kuciniches had hoped to visit the affected areas in northern Israel but were told by Israeli officials that there would not be much to see because repairs were almost completed. In the Palestinian town of Ramallah, they met with a small group of government officials and representatives of NGOs. They also met with Suheil Dawani, Coadjutor Bishop of the Diocese of Jerusalem and his wife.
        ...

    •  Not a single issue. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SaucyIntruder

      It leads to her behavior in the White House.

      Will a terrorist attack frighten her into draconian attacks that are, in the long term, harmful to the country?

      How does she deal with dissent and difference of opinion?

      Does she think that the powers that the Chimp has accumulated in the Executive branch are overreaching and unconstitutional, or does she see them as necessary to fight terrorism?

      Does she support the War on Terror and the war in Iraq? Does she support a preemptive military solution to terrorism?

  •  If Hillary didn't make a mistake in her vote (16+ / 0-)

    does that mean that Akaka, Bingaman, Boxer, Byrd, Chafee, Conrad, Corzine, Dayton, Durbin, Feingold, Graham, Inouye, Jeffords, Kennedy, Leahy, Levin, Mikulski, Murray, Reed, Sarbanes, Stabenow, Wellstone and Wyden, who voted against the resolution, made the mistake?

    •  bingo! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cowalker, asimbagirl, reggiesmom, offgrid, jfm

      Why did she take the word of Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld over the wisdom of her own colleagues, nearly half of whom voted against the original 2002 resolution?

      I guess anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough.
      -The DM of the Rings

      by Leggy Starlitz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:31:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Any Senator voted NO (0+ / 0-)

      from New York, Virginia or Pennsylvania? These are states where people died on 9-11. I doubt it. Are you telling me that if you were a senator from New York you would have voted agains the sentiments and anxiety of your constituents?

    •  St Feingold has a lot to apologize for! (0+ / 0-)

      He agreed that the evidence suggested Saddam was pursuing WMD. He agreed we could not simply return to the earlier UN inspections regime. He agreed with the goal of regime change. When he was toying with the idea of running for President, why didn't we kossacks DEMAND that St. Feingold apologize for all his 2002 faiures to have 2007 hindsight??

      See his October 11, 2002, Why I Oppose Bush's Iraq War Resolution:

         And with regard to Iraq, I agree that Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I agree, I support the concept of regime change.

         And I agree, therefore, Mr. President, we cannot do nothing with regard to Saddam Hussein and Iraq. We must act. We must act with serious purpose and stop the weapons of mass destruction and stop Saddam Hussein. And I agree a return to the inspections regime of the past alone is not a serious, credible policy.

         In any event, I oppose this resolution because of the continuing unanswered questions, including the very important questions about what the mission is here, what the nature of the operation will be, what will happen concerning weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as the attack proceeds and afterward, and what the plan is after the attack is over. In effect, Mr. President, we're being asked to vote on something that is unclear. We don't have answers to these questions. We're being asked to vote on something that is almost unknowable in terms of the information we've been given.

         And so this moment -- in which we are responsible for assessing the threat before us, the appropriate response, and the potential costs and consequences of military action -- this moment is of grave importance. Yet there is something hollow in our efforts. In all of the Administration's public statements, its presentations to Congress, and its exhortations for action, Congress is urged to provide this authority and approve the use of our awesome military power in Iraq without knowing much at all about what we intend to do with it.

         We are about to make one of the weightiest decisions of our time within a context of confused justifications and vague proposals. We are urged, Mr. President, to get on board and bring the American people with us, but we don't know where the ship is sailing.

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:18:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Feingold voted AGAINST IWR in 2002 (0+ / 0-)

        I disagree with his statement above, but when the moment of Truth came, Feingold voted against IWR and Hillary voted FOR it.

        •  Yes, but he was wrong on WMD, regime change etc. (0+ / 0-)

          Why doesn't he apologize for supporting regime change in Iraq? That's the root of the evil that led eventually to our invasion.

          Why doesn't he apologize for believing the lies about WMD? That was the immediate ratonale that got a majority of Americans to back the invasion.

          I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

          by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:27:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Apologize for supporting regime change? (0+ / 0-)

            Regime change means the regime changes. It doesn't necessarily mean you launch an invasion to help it along. I'm confused as to where you think Feingold went wrong. The whole point of his speech was that Bush didn't give Congress enough information one way or the other.

            •  Believing there were WMD is no problem for you? (0+ / 0-)

              That b.s. got us into the war. It brought the vast majority of Americans over to Bush's side.

              Feingold was a believer; instead he should've been blasting that b.s. every day and night.

              I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

              by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:47:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  What a nonsensical argument. (0+ / 0-)

            Whatever rhetoric Feingold used to support not authorizing Bush to invade Iraq, the fact is, he cast the correct vote: NO.

            Are you seriously suggesting that people start apologizing for their thoughts, rather than their actions?

            CLINTON AUTHORIZED THE WAR, FEINGOLD DID NOT.

            AND -- the point is not to force Clinton into an apology.

            THE POINT IS, IF SHE IS NOT WILLING TO ADMIT THIS MISTAKE, WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER SHE IS JUST UNABLE TO ADMIT THAT SHE MADE A MISTAKE, OR WHETHER SHE ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT SHE DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE.

  •  Translation (16+ / 0-)

    I lost my mind after 9/11 just like the rest of the country.

    What really hurts is that if a "superstar" like Clinton had taken the lead on the opposition, we might have had a chance to stop this mess (probably not, ultimatley, but we had no chance with people like her going the other way).

    Everyone knows why Clinton cast the vote the way she did - it's the same reason John Kerry cast his vote the way he did:  They wanted to run for president and didn't want to look weak on national security.

    I'm willing to forgive people who admit they really f'd up and try to make amends.  But don't bullshit me.

    •  Political expediency = Myopia. (5+ / 0-)

      hey wanted to run for president and didn't want to look weak on national security.

      If either Kerry or Clinton had just done what they surely knew was right, they'd be much stronger candidates.

      Think radically, act practically.

      by Autarkh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:32:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  But along with Kerry (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Feanor, revbludge, offgrid

      Clinton is in the trap of trying to say that she wasn't wrong in the first place and is merely criticizing the execution of the war.

      It leaves her wide open to attack in the general election in a way that someone like Edwards is not, even though he too had voted for the war resolution.

      Clinton would be a weak candidate in the general, and that is just one reason I do not want her.

      You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

      by A Mad Mad World on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  falwell is still focused on Kerry (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        A Mad Mad World

        Repeating how Kerry crawfished on his vote and stating that the Democrats cannot afford to ignore "Middle America" and "Core Values".  Despite several GOP falls from Grace, Falwell continues to bleat that the Democrats are not "American" in their beliefs, (I think he really is trying to say the Democrats are the party of buggery but doesn't have the chutzpah to say it)

      •  London odd makers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tigercourse

        today have Clinton winning the general election. They have predicted the past 3 elections correctly.

        •  I really hope we don't somehow manage to (0+ / 0-)

          jetison our best shot at a victory in the general through dogmatic attacks in the primary.

        •  Bookmakers (0+ / 0-)

          Don't "have someone" winning. They offer odds on the winner, and currently their favorite is HRC.

          I can find odds of 3.5 here, which means she is clearly ahead of the field, but by no means considered a sure bet.

          Interestingly, Edwards has odds 6.35 for nomination and 7.00 for president - so apparently the bookies think he has a good chance of winning if he get the nomination. In comparison, Hillary has 2.08 for nomination.

          For those unfamiliar wih British odds: 3.5 means you end up with 3.5 units for each unit you bet (in case you win, of course). If we disregard the profit/risk aspect of being a bookmaker, this means you can translate odds x into an estimated probability 1/x of the event occuring.

  •  like I keep saying... (8+ / 0-)

    The "Bush lied to me" excuse doesn't go very far with me.  OF COURSE he lied!  He's a LIAR!  DUH!  It was flat-out crazy to BELIEVE that

    1. Bushco wasn't at least cherry-picking, if not outright forging evidence to get a war they obviously wanted, and
    1. That "invade if inspections were blocked" really meant "invade regardless of the results of inspections".

    And it's not like he fooled EVERYONE... many, many Democrats in Congress knew to vote against this back in 2002, and did so.  Why listen to the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld, and not to, say, Russ Feingold?  Why were their top guys believed over our top guys?

    The answer is a simple either/or.  Either Democrats who voted for the war were stupid, or they were cowards.  Or perhaps both.

    I have a hard time even giving Edwards a pass on this, much less Hillary Clinton, who has stood so strongly behind her vote all along.  At least we can't call her a coward for it, being so far out of step with her party.  I guess she's just stupid.

    I guess anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough.
    -The DM of the Rings

    by Leggy Starlitz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:22:51 AM PST

  •  Bad judgement, appeasement, then providing cover (6+ / 0-)

    Arguing that since New York was hit, we had to bomb the fuck out of a country that had nothing to do with it, then invade it and lose what will eventually be a trillion dollars and countless lives is really not an endearing argument.

    Amen.  No more legacy presidents.  No more failing upwards.

    She failed to do her job as my senator.  I fear what kind of job she would do as my president.

    "Being a politician is a poor profession. Being a public servant is a noble one." - Herbert Hoover

    by LondonYank on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:23:26 AM PST

  •  That's Why She Will Lead the Dems to Failure (6+ / 0-)

    This is the best example of why she is a disaster for us. She was not only totally in favor of the war, she now says she was not.

    That is why we must pick Gore, Obama, or at least someone who now takes responsiblity for being wrong like Edwards.

    Keep your eyes on the prize.

    by Better Days on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:23:53 AM PST

    •  I have a talent for picking losers (0+ / 0-)

      but I do not think Hilary will be able to take the primaries. She will have enough clout to influence the platform and maybe the VEEP choice but not enough to pull off the nomination.
      But then I thought McGovern was a shoo-in.

  •  Flak from her own Democratic base (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Danny Boy, offgrid

    if Hillary thinks this is working out for her, she is really out of touch.  Watching the news,  shows hostile audiences because of her stance on the war and her carefully crafted reasons to why she supported it.

    In order for her to get some kind of approval, I think she needs to take a position that is ahead of Congress but what the country wants: impeachment.  If she called for that, then I would be a supporter.  But she won't, too risky for her.

    •  Uh, what? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      curtadams

      Honestly, folks, let it go. It's not going to happen, and does NOTHING to end the war. Don't let a desire for revenge get in the way of the real issues.

      •  Um, to many of us, the war IS the real issue (5+ / 0-)

        so I am not about to let it go.

        Hillary Clinton has been given a free pass up until now in the MSM over her Iraq vote. But in the last week, it  seems as though the grassroots' anger over Hillary and the war has seeped into the MSM. I have seen more stories and Op-Ed pieces over Hillary's nonsense in the last week than I have in the last 3 years.

        Check this out:

        "A New Hampshire Ghost"
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

        and this:
        "A War She Hasn't Won"
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

        http://www.nytimes.com/...

        And this is just in the last two days. This story is not going anywhere. It is only going to get worse.

        And I'm glad. Because if we have a choice between a pro-war Republican and a cowardly Clinton, I will be at my wit's end.

        My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

        by adigal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:44:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  while it is one of the major issues (0+ / 0-)

          We cannot turn loose of the other issues that are resonating in the country now.  People are tired of Bonzo economics and cowboy diplomacy.  If this is one of the major issues, great; if the GOP can focus the whole argument on the war and on what is "American", it will have the same effect as the silliness over gay marriage.
          (If Kerry wins, your son will have to marry a gay)  

        •  Better to have this argument now (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandy on Signal, adigal

          and have a chance to pick her off  before the general when the real bloodbath would begin.

          "We Quake in our Jammies" Bill in Portland Maine

          by Humboldt Jodi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:12:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  3125 dead and 600000+ Iraqis (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        berith

        deserve more than a weak response about why she voted for the war.

        We know now, some of us then, that this war was based on lies and greed.  We first heard WMD's then Saddam was an evil dictator then democracy for Iraqis, what will be next?  We do know, Bush doesn't want to leave.  His lies to bring about pre-emptive war constitute impeachment.

        Hillary should take a stand on this.  Action is better than words, especially hers.

        •  The most important part of ending the war (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emsprater, cpresley, brklyngrl

          is having the Dem party firmly unified around our 2008 Presidential candidate. Twisting Hillary's 2002 equivocations into a "firm prowar stance" (I know you didn't say that but others have) very much endangers our ability to end the war. Whatever she thought in 2002, she'll get us out if elected.

          •  How about doing it now? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mdgarcia

            Why wait until elected?  She has more power as a Senator than we do here on the Kos.  She needs to do something.  Initiating impeachment hearings would be a good start.  Speaking out against the lies and corruption of this administration would be another.  

  •  Flip-Flopper (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Athena, diplomatic, curtadams

    At least it can't be said that she was before the war before she was against it.  I wonder how much of her maneuvering has to do with a desire to protect herself from that charge.

    After watching most members of the television media writhe in full-throe orgasm over the John Kerry "flip-flopper" theme in 2004, I do not blame her for wanting to avoid a repeat.

    I recommended your comment. And then I un-recommended it.

    by bink on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:24:02 AM PST

  •  In other words: (5+ / 0-)

    Hillary is acting like a Republican. That is the same losing strategy that cost us the elections from 2000-2004. I can see some logic in saying that Bush misled her -- that would portray Bush as a liar in a way that "I was wrong" does not. But on the other hand, that is not what people are looking for from her. People look for someone who admits it when they are wrong on the issues.

    And that sort of conflating of 9/11 with Iraq would be troll-rated out of existance here for propagating conspiracy theories.

  •  Depends what her polling says (8+ / 0-)

    Assume she has written off the blog left/netroots.

    She has made a strategic calculation that she doesn't need y'all.  Step out of the echo chamber and into one of her focus groups.  If the polling and focus groups say it'll help her to admit she made a mistake... you know damn straight she'll be out there whipping herself soon thereafter.  If not, she won't.

    I don't trust the woman to have a sincere heartfelt opinion about anything other than her own ambition.

    Hard core Libertarian: +6.63 / -4.41

    by jimsaco on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:24:24 AM PST

  •  Of all senators who voted for the invasion (7+ / 0-)

    Senator Clinton, as the former first lady, had the wisdom of her husband, and he's knowledge of intelligence, backing up her vote. If there was legitimate reason to doubt the WMD claim, as we now know there was, she would have known.

    Her vote, in my mind, is inexcusable.

    We've had either a Clinton or a Bush in the white house for 18 years.

    It's time for new blood.

  •  Mistakes were made... (5+ / 0-)

    Not enough to deflect. Refuge of a coward,"Mistakes werre made". She as bad as Bush. No personal responsibility-no acknowledgement of your own bad judgment-it's the fault of "others".

    Plus, was it a "mistake" or just a vote driven by calculation and fear? Whatever, that vote exhibits bad judgment-even of the calculating kind. I will not vote for any candidate that voted ofr the war-because that's what it was-they all knew war would ensue. Whether they were cowards or calucaltors or idiots taken in by the administration-I don't wnat any of them for my president.

    Hilary still doesn't get that calculation isn't enough. It's not all about triangulating and manuervering and shading. I do think most people are hungering for someone who recognizes, articulates and makes decisions based on reality.

  •  Speaking as a Non-Supporter... (10+ / 0-)

    ...I'm fucking sick of the "Hillary must do X" bullshit. If you don't like Clinton to begin with, it'll never be enough. No matter what she says. And I'm fucking sick of it.

    She's said flatly she'll end the war if elected. Have other candidates said that?

    It would be nice to see a well-organized group like Kos spend today going after the people in the House and Senate who still support the lying prick who actually sent us into this mess and killed over 3000 troops.

    And again, at this juncture, I do not support Clinton's candidacy.

  •  As one of New York's senators... (13+ / 0-)

    ...Hillary should know more than anyone in the Senate, other than Schumer, that New Yorkers were not clamoring for war with Iraq.  Just the opposite.  Opposition to the Iraq war was high and intense in New York.  So the "grief of 3000 people" line not only makes no sense but is affirmatively insulting to the intelligence of those of us, like me and most other New Yorkers, who lived through 9/11 up close and personal and saw absolutely no connection between that tragic day and Bush's war on Saddam.

    They're just digging her hole deeper with that line of argument.

    "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

    by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:25:41 AM PST

    •  but that is the point (0+ / 0-)

      Schumer voted for it as well.  She might be able to wiggle out of it.

      I am proud to say that Durbin (my senior Senator) was one of the 23 who did not (Chaffe, Jeffords, and 21 Democrats)

      When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

      by onanyes on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:28:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I haven't heard Schumer... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adigal

        ...claim he "had" to vote that way because of suffering New Yorkers.  If has said it, then he gets the insulter-of-intelligence moniker, as well.

        "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

        by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:32:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Check this poll in 2/2003 (0+ / 0-)

      NYers liked her enough -- and her decisions -- to be a Democratic presidential candidates...

      February 13, 2003 - Hillary Clinton Leads Dem Pack In New York, Quinnipiac University Poll Finds; Unnamed Democrat Tops Bush In New York  

      If Sen. Hillary Clinton decides to run for President in 2004, 50 percent of New York Democrats would back her move, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.

      ...

      Lots of "high and intense" opposition...

      Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

      by dcrolg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:12:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What? (0+ / 0-)

        1,000,000 people on the streets of Manhattan prior to the war is high and intense opposition.  Opinion polls in New York showed significant opposition to war in Iraq.  Your poll doesn't even begin to touch that question.

        "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

        by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:26:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Eight months ago... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    katiebird, tikkun, potownman

    She was nearly booed off the stage for this little number:

    But I have to just say it: I do not think it is a smart strategy either for the president to continue with his open-ended commitment, which I think does not put enough pressure on the new Iraqi government, nor do I think it is smart strategy to set a date certain. I do not agree that that is in the best interest of our troops or our country.

  •  Triangulators, mount up! n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, londubh
  •  what we really could do (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    curtadams, tigercourse

    Instead of bashing Hillary for decisions she made in the past and can no longer control, we should let our representatives know that we care about such issues as global poverty.  According to the non-profit organization, the Borgen Project, annually it costs $19 billion to feed the world while the United States spends $420 billion on the military alone with $340 billion of that being spent on the Iraq War.

    •  No. I think I'll stick with what I believe. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adigal, TheBlaz, SeekCa, theark

      And I believe that Hillary would be a horrible president. So, I'll keep bashing.

      As for the other issues, of course they are vitally important. Unfortunately, she polls the shit out of an issue, has her Inner Circle of bloatway consultants measure and weigh each response, practice it on video revise it, edit it, test market it, then try to make her sound as though it is extemporaneous. Enough of this shit already. She hasn't the intellectual honesty to face this issue straight up? Imagine when other scary events occur. Where will we be then?

      She should withdraw.

      In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

      by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I keep having flashbacks.. (0+ / 0-)

        to when she said she was not some little woman like Tammy Wynette standing by her man.  Okay Hillary, you're not an enabler.  You keep believing that.  I'll just go stand over here now...

        It really angers me to see the manipulation and money that is going into her campaign.  This early out, the race is hopefully just speculation.  I look forward to seeing one of the tortoises catch up to and overtake the hare.

        •  all the candidates are handled (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          curtadams

          Watch John McCain. Either he has handlers or he is schizophrenic as he can contradict himself from clause to clause in a speech.

          Remember the speculation about the bulges in GWB's back during the debates and wonderment about if he were hearing impaired or had someone feeding him information through an earpiece?  (we won't mention Cheney's hand up GWB's coat or GWB's reference to Charlie McCarthy as "a fellow intellectual")

  •  Chances I will support HRC (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman, TheBlaz

    Dec 2006 - 10%
    Jan 2007 - 5%
    Feb 2007 - .005%

    Opening Day - April 1, 2007

    by MikeBaseball on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:27:07 AM PST

  •  Carville (8+ / 0-)

    So people from California, or North Carolina, or Illinois did not grieve over 3,000 dead? I'm from Ontario and I wept for days and drove to the U.S. to comfort friends (and relatives) within weeks. The whole world felt that, not just the USA, let alone New York. Maybe it was more intense, but it didn't cause very many people right in Manhattan to favor attacking Iraq, even at the beginning.

    He truly is an ass.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:27:16 AM PST

  •  It's not a mistake! It's a failure... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    berith, potownman, theark

    ...to consider and deliberate on giving the President (whatever pres) to go to war (whatever war).

    Let's stop calling the Senate's vote for the President to go to war in Iraq a mistake. It was a failure to uphold their oathes of office.

    -fink

  •  Some Feel She Didn't Make a "Mistake" (8+ / 0-)

    She voted for it based on the information she had at the time.  I don't think that was a mistake.

    Hindsight's 20/20 and from what I've heard - she's said she would have voted differently if she'd known then what she knows now.

    That's enough for me.

    And as someone who lived through the attacks on 9/11 in DC, I can understand how she would have wanted to go after the bastids she was told helped to attack her state.  There was a part of me who wanted to see anyone connected with those attacks pay dearly.

    Now we know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  But we were fed a steady diet of that mis-information back then and I for one don't blame Clinton for voting the way she did.

    I just care about one thing now - fixing what went wrong and moving forward.

    •  ??? (7+ / 0-)

      And as someone who lived through the attacks on 9/11 in DC, I can understand how she would have wanted to go after the bastids she was told helped to attack her state.

      Congress were never told that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.

      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

      by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:33:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They sure weren't. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Black Maned Pensator, adigal, jfm

        And a bigger point: any idiot can say that if I knew then what I know now I would do it differently.  What I want to hear her say is "even if I knew then what I knew then about WMD, not what I know now about WMD, I would vote differently because I have learned a lesson about the burden of proof those who advocate the use of violence should be put to, especially in a democracy."  Killing people is serious business.  Anyone who advocates it needs to prove the case for its necessity beyond reasonable doubt.  Bush didn't come anywhere close.

        "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

        by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:38:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the AUMF worked (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          It really did. Saddam caved and agreed to allow full inspections.  Then Bush invaded anyway. The AUMF would have been right if Bush weren't unprecedented in his willingness to harm the country in foreign affairs for personal and political gain.

          •  You've got your facts wrong. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mr X, Lesser Dane, jfm

            Inspectors were given full access to Iraq long before the AUMF was voted.  What the AUMF was meant to do was prod the UN into passing a follow-up resolution that permitted the US ("any member," in UN parlance) to use force if Iraq failed to make a full and complete accounting of its WMD under the theory that the US was going in and the UN could get on the wagon or become "irrelevant."  Hans Blix has stated repeatedly that the AUMF complicated his mission rather than help it.

            And there are a lot of illusions about Bush's supposedly "unprecedented" use of force where it was not necessary or justified.  I can name a dozen uses of force by the US since WWII where it was unjustified and demonstrably unnecessary to protect legitimate US interests.  Vietnam is only the most obvious example.

            "When the intellectual history of this era is finally written, it will scarcely be believable." -- Noam Chomsky

            by scorponic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:21:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  And You Know This... How? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diplomatic
    •  I'll add to this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jfm

      please keep in mind that I am not endorsing what I am about to say; I was against the Iraq war from the time "The Decider" made his infamous SOTU address when he all but announced that he was going to war

      But the thinking of many is something like this:  the world is in two camps; that part that is connected to the world economy (called "the core") and that part that isn't (called "the gap")

      Countries within the core can settle disputes because diplomacy works; the reason is that these countries have much to lose.

      On the other hand, "gap" countries are often ruled by ruthless dictators and the lives of the citizens are often miserable.  Hence, terrorism breeds "in the gap". Hence, when a dictator gets out of line (say, is in breech with a WMD resolution), we have the right and the duty to take him out.

      If we don't, conditions in "the gap" get worse and more terrorism breeds, and when it does, it can attack us.

      Anyway, that is the theory (see Thomas Barnett's site; he wrote "The Pentagon's New Map"; you can download a free copy from there).

      And for what it is worth:  Barnett's book is on the "Clinton reading list" at the Clinton Museum Store in Little rock. (albeit:  Bill Clinton).

      Again, I don't agree with the above theory but am merely presenting it.

      When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

      by onanyes on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:35:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That would translate to... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr X, Lesser Dane, jfm

        ..."the part of the world controlled by rich countries and the part that needs to stay exploitable."

        It's just the old First World vs. Third World garbage in new clothing.

        First, oversight; second, investigations; third, impeachments; fourth, war crimes trials!

        by ibonewits on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:07:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not exactly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ibonewits

          the idea, at least the stated idea, is to turn "the gap" countries into "core countries"; that is, to lift them out of poverty and into a prosperous liberal democracy; that is how Barnett says it.

          Again, I don't endorse it, and I am a bit tickled at how Barnett dismisses regional experts (e. g., those who point out that long simmering tensions might be difficult to resolve) as "pessimists".

          To be fair, Barnett says that we need a different kind of military; one for quick military action, and one to occupy.

          When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

          by onanyes on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:22:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The "I was still hysterical from 9/11" defence (8+ / 0-)

     will really give her opponents a potent weapon. Can you imagine Rush limbaugh taking off on this?  Next excuse will be "we were all wrong" statements. Except that won't fly either. I think she's triangulated herself into a corner.

  •  I want a Democrat to win the vote (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, dunderhead, SeekCa

    So for God's sake, Hillary.  Admit that you made a horrible mistake.  No excuses.  No post 9/11 shock syndrome, no blaming Bush for misleading you.  

    As we have witnessed over the past 6 years of the current administration, failure to admit a mistake is poor leadership.  Either you want to lead, or you're just another butt kissing politician.  

    So what is it?  

    "At least the War on the Enviornment is going well"

    by egarratt on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:29:20 AM PST

  •  It's going to be hard for her to get to 5%... (0+ / 0-)

    support around here.  I agree she cannot change now or she'd fade.  But that doesn't mean she should not continue to explain her thinking, and in much more specific terms than she has to date.

    •  When Hillary wins, with our 5% support, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, CAL11 voter, cpresley

      that will be a wonderful boost for our vaunted blogpower.

      Kos is running purity scenarios here. Bad Idea.

      It would be a lot better to talk about useful things we want her to plan to do.

      I'm not a Hillary fan, but I don't want blogstars to talk carelessly while grooming their own support.

      Listen Before You Talk.

      by ormondotvos on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:03:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  When Hillary Loses Without Our Support... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CAL11 voter, londubh

        we'll get called the 'Nader of 2008'.

        If we support her, and she whistles past us, we lose.

        Anyway you shape it, Hillary does nothing for anybody but Hillary and Hillary's money.

        Lefty!!!

        "There is a time for compromise, and it is called 'Later'!"

        by LeftyLimblog on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:08:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    potownman, ms badger

    There is nothing that bothers me more about modern politicians than the inability to just say flat out, "I was wrong, I made a mistake, and I am now going to correct it."
    I think Romney on the Republican side is using that tactic to some effect concerning his turn around on abortion rights. I think it is not enough in his case, the fundy's don't seem a very forgiving bunch, but he is not trying to recast his former stands as somehow really being anti-choice, he is just saying, "I was wrong, I've reconsidered and changed my mind."
    HRC has had a long time now to just say plain and simple, I made a mistake, I regret that vote and I am now going to work to undo the damage it did, but she is from the old school, which her husband exemplifies perfectly, of never ever admitting you made a mistake.
    I just don't trust her, it's that simple.

  •  Americans elect LEADERS to the presidency (6+ / 0-)

    I keep pounding away at this theme.  Americans vote for likeable leaders in presidential elections.  That is why so few sitting senators ever become president.

    • "I was misled."
    • "I only voted to give him the authority."
    • "I never thought he would misuse the authority."
    • "WAA!! WAAH!! WAAHH!!!"

    Does this sound like a leader???

    Sheesh.

  •  dumbya has the same problem - denial denial deny (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal

    it's even worse to compound that mistake by refusing to come to terms with it.

    I read elswhere that since HRC has a huge lead in the polls and as such she froze out the National press in NH and offered herself to "public grilling".

    It is said that this is a good move!
    And so far Obama has "goofed" once and apologized for his "wasted" comment, while Edwards is fighting the demons of Anti- Catholic bloggers.
    HRC hasnt "stumbled" so to speak.

    So what happens when the race gets tighter as it will eventually?
    Its only a matter of time before Obama hits the trail, Edwards hits the trail, and start moving the voters with their message.

  •  Jerry Nadler voted against IWR (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dietznbach, berith, jj32, adigal, dunderhead

    and he is the Congressman from the district. Sorry, 9/11 is not going to play here, Ms. Westchester, NY. You see Congressman Nadler had the judgment to vote against it.  While you, Madame Senator, "looked in the mirror and saw a future President".  Blinded by power!

  •  How can Hillary credibly admit her support (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scotslass, adigal, TheBlaz

    of Bush’s Iraq policy was a mistake; when she’s following him all the way into Iran?

  •  She's refusing to apologize for the same reason (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vivacia, pHunbalanced

    that the other aiders and abetters are now apologizing:  political considerations.

    She's playing the Maggie Thatcher, I ain't gonna apologize to no one, tough role.

    At this point, no one would be swayed by a failure to apologize anyways.  Those who are willing to overlook complicity with the Iraq war because of an apology have already signed up with Edwards, Biden, or Dodd.

  •  Oh Come On, This is Way Over the Top-- (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    katiebird, adigal, dunderhead, potownman

    Clinton cast a vote that has led to one of the biggest foreign policy disasters in this nation's history --

    It is the biggest disaster without peer. The costs of this in dollars, diplomacy, military and security will continue to expand for decades.

    The only rival for disastership that I can think of in American history is our bungling 3 years of relations with the Confederate States of America.

    If we want to count the Civil War as foreign policy, possibly that was a greater disaster. I'm not educated on that subject enough to know whether that was a period of bungling. But I don't think it harmed our international relationships or security much at all.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:31:24 AM PST

  •  Why can't she stop digging? I want her (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DMiller, adigal, SoCalLiberal

    to have a good run for the nomination, though I doubt I'll support her.  But it's hers to lose.  And if she keeps on like this and gets nominated, the Presidency may very well be lost.  Damn.

  •  all we have left is the truth (6+ / 0-)

    Never, ever let her off the hook. I lost faith in some of my favorite Senators over this. Those who don't admit and have a powerful explanation for their wrong aren't worth a darn. Senator Byrd was not wrong. He looked at the same evidence and was not wrong. Let's see who else we can name. Of course Howard Dean was not wrong, but he was not in a position to vote. Don't let Carville re-write the truth. We know what was true then.

  •  Real changes of heart should be encouraged. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk

    I think you make too much of the original sin of voting for the war. Yes, it was stupid and it was pandering to popular hysteria, but that's what pols do. As you say later, Hillary's problem is not her original vote but her refusal to disavow it in the strongest terms available. I think she could have made the case that she, like other New Yorkers, was in a post-traumatic fog and made a terrible mistake by grabbing onto the first stupid reaction that came along. She could have had a stronger position as one who has fully acknowledged her guilt and now wants nothing more than to make whatever amends she can. It is a strange fact of political life that a Murtha gains more popular credibility than a Feingold who was right all along. Clinton could have been among them.

    Then she could be forgiven. But it's too late. Nominating her would be putting a defective part in the machinery of government, unable to fully lead. Haven't we had enough of that yet?

    Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven ain't goin' there -- Mahalia Jackson

    by DaveW on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:33:27 AM PST

  •  I was working in New York on 9/11. (14+ / 0-)

    I lived in Jersey City, which you can see right across the river from lower Manhattan, and I was commuting daily from Jersey City in Hudson County to lower Manhattan at the time.  My train used to arrive below the World Trade Center.  I was under the World Trade Center half an hour before the first plane hit, and I was in my office, ten blocks to the north, when the evacuation started.  A few days after the towers collapsed, I was sure that no one I knew who was in those towers died, thank God.

    When they opened the part of lower Manhattan where my office was up again the next week, I returned, smelling the weird smoke coming from the World Trade Center site, a mixture of collapsed building and cremated human beings.  The smoke poured out of the Trade Center site for months.  I could see it from my office, I could see it from my Jersey City apartment.  It was not pleasant.

    I lived through it, and I actually lived in the area where it happened, which is more than Senator Clinton can say.  Regardless, I wasn't so traumatized that I made the wholly illogical leap that because my part of the world had a smoldering hole of death we should let the president attack whatever country he wanted to without having to justify it.  Senator Clinton, who was in Washington at the time, was not at all exposed to the horrible things that happened to New York that day.  I have no idea what made her take leave of her senses, but why it affected her that way and not me or millions of other New Yorkers and Hudson Countians still calls for an explanation.

    A conservative is just a liberal who hasn't needed a second chance yet.

    by Larry McAwful on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:05 AM PST

    •  What I think happened is that the Senators (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Athena, adigal, dunderhead

      were not so much misled as they showed terrible judgment about Bush's character and intelligence. I think they judged Bush to have enough integrity and smarts to negotiate the situation using the threat of military power. They believed he would not invade if we could get enough access to prove there were no WMDs, whereas the whole claim of WMDs was just an excuse for the invasion.

      It was a horrible failure on their part. They should have known Bush was a liar, and couldn't be trusted.

      •  The Iraq calculation. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cowalker, Lesser Dane

        The hell of it is I think few if not none of the senators actually believed that Bush had evidence supporting that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.  What they were probably thinking was that although there's no current, solid documentation that Iraq has these weapons, chances are that we'll find some when we invade, which will allow Bush to claim that his intelligence was right all along.  The Democratic senators who joined Bush's lack of evidence were afraid of looking like they had egg on their faces after the dust settled.

        I never thought anyone thought Bush had the least interest in diplomacy, and I still don't.  Anyone who gave Bush the authority to attack whoever he wanted knew what they were getting into, and did so through political calculation rather than their having been taken advantage of.  That said, I want a president who will mop up the mess in Iraq and make a better America at home.  I don't think there will be much difference between what one candidate or another would do about the mess that Iraq is, whether it's a Republican or a Democrat.  This whole election hinges on domestic plans, as far as I'm concerned.  While Senator Clinton's Iraq vote is not a shining moment for her, that's not what keeps me from supporting her bid for president.  However, her claim that "9/11" traumatized her too much to make a rational decision on Iraq is total crap, and it strikes me as too disingenuous a postion for a president to stake out, so that's a negative in Larry's Big Book of Hillary Clinton.

        A conservative is just a liberal who hasn't needed a second chance yet.

        by Larry McAwful on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:01:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If she would just say that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cowalker

        in so many words, it wouldn't hurt her, and she wouldn't have to keep dodging the question.

        Support your neighborhood bats.

        by DelRPCV on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:03:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Was about to post the same thing. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larry McAwful

      Interestingly, I too was living in Jersey City at the time!  I had a view of the skyline from my kitchen window so I had a front row seat for the plumes of smoke lingering for weeks.  I worked in Soho at the time, less than a mile from WTC.  My tale is almost identical to yours.  And I, too, never thought war in Iraq was a solution to anything.  If anything, I couldn't understand why we would divert attention from Afghanistan.

    •  One known reason it affected Hillary is because (0+ / 0-)

      she visited the families of the victims of the twin-tower fatalities and felt their pain. Her daughter Chelsea was even in the vicinity when the planes hit.

  •  Hillary's Campaign.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, The Lager Lad

    must die.

    This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

    by Mr X on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:09 AM PST

  •  Carville? (6+ / 0-)

    Jeebus Christmas. If she's sending Mr Mary Matalin out to speak for her, she must really think it's fifteen years ago.

  •  Carville is not a Democrat (7+ / 0-)

    He's not. He's married to the Cruella of the GOP, he bashes Dems every time he gets a chance, he probably hasn't worked on a campaign in ten years. That moron has done more to fuck over Dems the past 15 years than anyone in the GOP.

    •  Talk about both parties being in bed together n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic

      My heart goes out to all who suffered needlessly because of this ruinous occupation. End it now.

      by Paul Goodman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:41:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  carville should be chained (0+ / 0-)

      to an organ grinder so we could really understand his role in the media. I find myself missing the old days when there were journalists who actually knew something and actually researched things and the airwaves were not crowded with people whose main claim to fame is the ability to outrage the greatest number of people.

  •  I appreciate this stance (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, SeekCa

    I've been arguing this very same point for over a week in the diaries, but now I don't need to anymore; I'll just link to this post.  Well said, better than I have been able to myself, so thank you Markos.

    Oh, but beware the remailers who'll cram your box with messages about your stupidity.  This happened to me last week when I tried to argue that Clinton's judgement was a problem.

    "We Quake in our Jammies" Bill in Portland Maine

    by Humboldt Jodi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:40 AM PST

  •  I still haven't found a Hillary supporter. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, dunderhead, potownman

    Well, I guess there is one person over at Eschaton but wow.  How does she poll so well?

    If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will.

    by Yoshimi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:49 AM PST

    •  Because she's a good Senator. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      curtadams
      •  I beg to differ (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dunderhead, LV Pol Girl, jfm

        Come look around upstate; NPR just had a big program on those in Syracuse who have lost their jobs at Carrier and are just floundering around now.

        Go drive through Oswego, and some other upstate communities. Where are the jobs programs, where are the educational opportunities, the counseling for these people whose whole worlds have changed?? There are some programs, but I don't ever see Hillary there, working for these people.

        And it will be worse in the next few years, as Madam Fundraiser runs around the country trying to be president.

        My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

        by adigal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:56:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Good senators didn't vote for Bush's war -NT- (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jfm

        "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

        by Subterranean on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:05:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Apparently My Mum... (0+ / 0-)

      Delicate issue; Mum is generally rather highly intelligent.

      Might have to figure out a familial triangulation strategy...

      To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

      by potownman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:47:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When is Senator Clinton going to join us on DKos? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, dunderhead, TheBlaz, jfm

    Wes Clark did it the other day, when will Hillary?
    If not, why not?

    we're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression

    by Lepanto on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:34:55 AM PST

    •  are you kidding? (9+ / 0-)

      Do you know how hard it is to have a flock of consultants on the same keyboard, editing, weighing and re-editing the message to triangulate it just so?

      Whe doesn't have the guts to show up when and where people are calling her bullshit precisely what it is.

      In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

      by agnostic on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:36:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because we are children who would hurl (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      insults at her, just as we did with Schumer.

      •  Oh, please. Overall, Schumer was treated well. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandy on Signal

        I dropped a mixed comment on him because that was my impression of him.  Democracy is not saying "I love you, I love you, I love you", it's about having a real discussion and telling it like it is.  Hillary will no way come here because she has total contempt for the netroots that stands in the way of her well oiled party machine.

      •  Also, Kerry came here, and got a mix (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandy on Signal

        of comments including a fair share of insults.  He took it in stride.  Hillary, OTOH, wouldn't be able to do that.  It's a shame really, because I think people would like to talk to her, but sometimes that includes being told the brutal truth.

        •  The problem here is I think alot of (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          truthvsbush, cpresley

          people are brutal, without the truth. We've become such an echo chamber, driven mad by it, that greens and Republicans are getting significant support by people on this site.

          •  Agreed that there are a certain amount of what I (0+ / 0-)

            would call "throwaway" comments.  But on every thread, I always find something insightful.  And that's how her people should view it.  Despite my critique of her, I would comment on a diary of hers, if she did one, on the problems I have with her Senate record, but in a civilized way, and yes, fact based.  I mean, why waste somebody's time with riff raff.  But I get the impression she doesn't want to talk to the real blogosphere, which was why she created a fake blogosphere on her own site.  I firmly believe that the person who wins the '08 nomination WILL have blogger support -- they don't have to be #1 but they need to be in the top 3 ON THE BLOGS, and Hillary doesn't have that yet.  Not even close.  Engagement may very well help her in this area.  2008 is going to be different from 2004, in that the internet will play a much larger role in whoever wins.

    •  She'll attend a Murdoch-sponsored fundraiser (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jfm

      But she won't post here.

      That tells us everything we need to know about HRC.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:26:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Her blaming 911 will not work here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, jfm

    but I think sometimes we overestimate the political acumen of democratic voters around the country and what they will fall for an or believe.

  •  Eventually (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ormondotvos, emsprater, cpresley

    the "Will you now apologize" crowd will end up being a boon to the Clinton campaign.

    The mistakes were made by Bush.

    If the idea here is to make the Iraq war to go down in history as a bipartisan war, I'll have to respectfully disagree.

    Also, Sen. Clinton will admit to mistakes when she feels ultimately responsible for the outcome.  See 1992 efforts to revolutionize Health Care.  So this idea that she's incapable of introspection on anything at all -- and the laughable comparison to Bush -- is unmitigated bullshit.

  •  HRC is cracking under the pressure of Obama (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Donna Z, berith, potownman, agnostic

    Her test runs into New Hampshire and Iowa indicate that retail politics will not be a strong suit for her.  Our voters want accountability.  They are not going to let this issue go.  

    Furthermore, Obama has presented himself as a very, very credible alternative to Hillary Clinton.  For those who don't want to give her a pass on her vote, and are sick of her b.s. responses, Obama presents himself as a very intelligent, optimistic, measured, thoughtful and appealing alternative.  Obama is just as electable as she is.  Obama will also have more than enough money to withstand the negative attacks that will come at him from camp HRC.  

    Hillary will not be able to get through this campaign without her 2002 vote bogging her down.  Based on how she has behaved, I don't think she will change her position or rhetoric on that issue.  Obama is only going to get stronger with more exposure.  He has also shown an ability to hit back with biting effectiveness when attacked (Ask John Howard how he feels about his poll numbers this week).  

    Obama is going to win the primary (unless Gore gets in).  

    •  She's got a 10 point lead on Obama in (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, potownman

      New Hampsire.

      •  Doesn't Bode Well; (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diplomatic, adigal, LV Pol Girl

        That is a very small lead considering Obama has been in the spolight for about a dozen+ years less than Clinton.  And still has quite a bit less exposure.

        Obama had a few thousand UNH student roaring in approval the other day, speaking of the ill-fated nature of the war.  Perhaps very indicative of the youth vote becoming crucially important.

        Among the rest of us older adults, one is indeed rather hard-pressed to find Hillary supporters, here, on the Seacoast, which has many people of different fashions in the broader political circle.

        Which is not to say they don't exist, clearly.

        To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

        by potownman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:54:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Meaningless. (0+ / 0-)

        10 points evaporates overnight in a fluid primary.  What that poll shows is that Hillary is not in a dominant position.  That tells Obama that she can be beat.  

    •  Obama still has ammo on 2002 AUMF vote (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      berith, jfm

      He can bolster his reputation on foreign policy with this 2002 public access TV interview about the coming Iraq War.  While his conclusion to oppose AUMF is sound, how he got to that conclusion sounds almost like a prediction of how the past four years have played out.  The more voters who get exposed to that video, the better Obama looks on foreign policy.

  •  I think Carville is being misunderstood... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Athena, diplomatic

    ...I think what he was really trying to say was that her constituents wanted her to vote that way.  Many people that I know in upstate NY were very much in favor of it.  I don't think Carville was trying to conflate 9/11 with Iraq; I think he was saying that voters in her district had already done so.

    To clarify - I am not making excuses for HRC.  I am only trying to express how the comment sounded to my ears.  If anything this just says that she was obeying the flawed wishes of her constituents instead of what I hope are her actual convictions.  But if you never stand by your convictions then how would I know what those are.  Either way it is not impressive.

    Then again, whatever you think of her vote, she is absolutely correct in that this was Bush's mistake (er, I mean, Cheney's) and that Democrats need to continue to work very hard to make the blame stick where it belongs.  This 'surge' gambit was just a Rovian attempt to get the Democrats to either publicly join the mistake and thus share the blame, or to publicly oppose the mistake and risk being painted as weak on military and security matters.  So far Democrats have managed to thread the needle and oppose the surge while appearing responsible on security.

    Obama: He's No Funky Negro - James Wolcott

    by Terrapin on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:35:34 AM PST

    •  Re (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      True North

      Then again, whatever you think of her vote, she is absolutely correct in that this was Bush's mistake (er, I mean, Cheney's) and that Democrats need to continue to work very hard to make the blame stick where it belongs.

      This argument would be much easier to make if she had actually voted against the IWR. The reason why we are having trouble making this a Republican war is that the Dems are complicit in it.

      There are varying degrees of complicity, of course. But Hillary is one of the most complicit Dems in Congress, with the exception of that traitor Lieberman. (Who is no longer a Dem). Seriously, we cannot nominate someone who was pro-war in 2002 because their denials and after-the-fact rationalizations just make us look stupid (Kerry, anyone?). If we must nominate someone who voted for the war, at least let it be Edwards, who appears to have some modicum of understanding of what a disaster he unleashed and is responsible for.

      But what I really want is that we nominate someone who's hands are clean of this. I'd settle for Obama, but I think our real champion, the one who absolutely got it right every step of the way, is Gore. Gore can run against both the Repubs an, to an extent, the complicit Dems.

      The problem here for Hillary (and Edwards) is that the IWR was a defining moment in which we got to see who stood with us and who didn't. Senators like Feingold and Kennedy took bold and politically risky positions in a dangerous environment to stand with us (as did other private citizens with lots to risk and little to gain, like Gore and the Dixie Chicks). Clinton, Kerry, and Edwards folded. How can we trust them now? And how do we argue that this is a Republican war?

      •  I agree with everything you've said... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ormondotvos

        ...including the part about 'at least let it be Edwards' who may have made the wrong judgement but at least has come out and admitted it.  

        But I guess I see things more in terms of a graded spectrum than many here.  Sure, I rank Gore and Feingold higher but HRC is still on the list and much higher than any Republican or Green.  I do not want to see the Dems implode over this - not now.  We need to work this out - gently - in the primary and then stick to the GOP every wakening hour of the campaign.

        I cannot endorse those on this site that would throw their vote away on an ideological statement.  We've lived through that already.

        Obama: He's No Funky Negro - James Wolcott

        by Terrapin on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:48:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Time to pay the piper, Hillary (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    berith, adigal, potownman, LV Pol Girl

    Hillary (and Biden, Kerry, Lieberman, Feinstein, etc.) made a political decision to vote for a war they knew was based on a pack of lies.  It was a morally reprehensible decision and probably not even a good political decision in retrospect.  They deserve everything they get.  Down with Hillary and the rest of them. Remind them of that vote everytime you see them.

    •  Moving on... (0+ / 0-)
       I agree taking responsibility for your mistakes is very important and is an indication of your character. But if you do or don't doesn't do much to deal with the problems the mistake caused. I've met very few politicians (or people in general) who don't come with baggage. The question is can we tolerate a certain amount of baggage to get the problem fixed?  Mrs. Clinton said she would end the war if elected. I like that a lot. If Mr. Obama said that and Mr. Edwards, Mr. Richards, General Clark and whomever else is applying for the job and presented a plan I would like that much more. I find it ironic that Moveon.org was started to encourage the country not to dwell on Mrs. Clinton's husband's problems.  I think we should move on from who enabled this war to who can stop it. I would like to see Mrs. Clinton in her role as Senator show some leadership and try to get our kids back home before we vote for our next President. And the same goes for Mr. Obama.  It is their actions, not their words that will inform my decisions.

      Everybody eats, nobody hits.

      by upperleftedge on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:14:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Look, if she comes out with a "I was for it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia

    before I was against it" approach, we lose. Should Obama get up there and give a "Dean Scream". Avoiding the mistakes of the past would be nice.

    •  The Dean campaign (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic

      was over well before the scream.

      The scream was not a big deal, just like Kerry's botched joke wasn't. Democrats allow Republican smear merchants to MAKE it a big deal.

      We're oft to blame in this--tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage and pious action we do sugar o'er the devil himself.

      by TheBlaz on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:45:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When the going gets tough (5+ / 0-)

    is when we count on our elected officials to take a strong stand. Instead, folks like Clinton, Kerry (and many others) were cowed by 9/11 and the super-patriotic sentiment that was rampant in 2002. They voted the way they did so they would not be branded traitors or soft on terrorism.
    In reality, had they done their homework, had they questioned the crap that was being dispensed from the White House, had they paid attention to the inspectors who said there were no WMD, had they thought about their duty to our nation, they would have voted against the resolution. The argument that they were only giving authorization "just in case" or that they were mislead is lame and doesn't hold water.
    I was angry at Kerry for voting for it. Had he not, he might just have won in a landslide (though there were other issues with his campaign, to be sure, and, well he actually did win). I am angry with Clinton for voting for it in the first place, and also for parsing words while people die. I am angry with Edwards for voting for it, and it's the main issue I have with him. (he's sorry? Tell that to the 3100 dead soldiers and hundreds of thousands Iraqis. "Ooops" doesn't' cut it.)
    I consider anyone who voted for the resolution to be, more or less, a traitor to everything this nation stands for.
    And, finally, if I, a more-or-less average American who did pay attention, knew that there were no WMD, that going to Iraq was a supremely bad idea...if I knew, then why the hell didn't they?
    Answer? They might very well have known, but didn't have the courage to say so.
    And I won't vote for anyone who has no courage.

    "Keep raisin' hell!" - Molly Ivins

    by MA Liberal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:37:42 AM PST

  •  And - - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    potownman

    That ain't her only problem - -
    Although it is the biggest.

  •  A person who can admit mistakes ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    potownman

    is a bigger person than one who won't or cannot. When you admit your mistakes, you grow. When you don't, you stagnate.

    First, Hillary should step down as a presidential candidate now and provide so much of her funds for a candidate with real potential who did not vote for the war, and

    Second, the Dems need to find a way to paint the Repugs as "messengers for terrorists", since it is the Repugs who read, verbatim, threats by bin-Laden and al-Zawahiri every single time the Repugs want to scare others into seeing things their way.

    bin-Laden and al-Zawahiri are on vacation in Spain while GWB & Co. continue to spread the message of terrorists. THAT is what emboldens the terrorists!

  •  Hillary's Iraq Gift (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, potownman

    Hell, even millions of gung-ho Republicans have admitted they made a mistake voting for those creeps in 2004, and voted for Democrats instead in 2006. Considering political momentum, many millions more will be admitting their 2004 and 2006 (and 2002 and 2000 and...) mistakes in 2008 and voting for Democrats.

    Hillary's Democratic opponents can scoop them up by admitting their mistakes, like Edwards has, or bragging about their correct insights in opposing the war, like Obama has.

    Which gives Democrats strong reason to stand against the war. Because that stands against Hillary, who will otherwise be close enough to them in the eyes of many voters that they will lose to her. Hillary's Iraq stubbornness is a gift to her competitors.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:38:54 AM PST

  •  Litmus test for prez: Must be smarter than me. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scotslass, potownman, SeekCa, theark

    If I could piece together that Bush was full of shit from out here in Oregon with no inside intel, she should have been able to tell from the Senate.

    Sorry, Hillary. Anyone who voted for the war took themselves out of the running. Having the judgement to vote against the war is the minimum required of a presidential candidate.

    "Politics is the entertainment arm of Industry." - Zappa

    by CheeseMoose on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:39:05 AM PST

  •  I diaried on this yesterday... (10+ / 0-)

    Question for Senator Clinton: If you knew this, why did you vote "Yes" on IWR?

    In the diary, I cite Senator Clinton's own words from this past weekend in New Hampshire:

    Mrs. Clinton’s 2002 vote poses political peril for her candidacy; she has not repudiated her vote, as Mr. Edwards has done of his, and she lacks the record of consistent criticism against the war of Mr. Obama, who was not in the Senate in 2002. During one forum early Saturday in the economically struggling city of Berlin in northern New Hampshire, Mrs. Clinton used tough language to blame President Bush and his advisers for Iraq, asserting that they came into power in 2001 with an "obsession" to oust Saddam Hussein and resolve the "unfinished business" of the first Persian Gulf war.

    "From almost the first day they got into office," Mrs. Clinton said, "they were trying to figure out how to get rid of Saddam Hussein. I’m not a psychiatrist; I don’t know all of the reasons behind their concern, some might say their obsession."

    Which begs the question:

      Knowing that they were obsessed with Saddam and Iraq, why would you, Senator Clinton, give them anything close to permission to do so?

    This question should, and will, haunt her.

    •  She is not saying she thought that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bob Johnson

      at the time, in 2002. She is saying, I think obviously, that later the obsession and so on became apparent.

      As I commented in your diary.

      Frankly, this is really a dailykos meta problem. I commented on your diary, and this is a pretty obvious flaw that you needed to know about.

      But instead you got a flood of non-analytical 'GREAT CATCH BOB' comments. Not helpful to you, and counter to one of the main purposes we should have here: correcting our community's mistakes before we offer them to the great big world.

      On the other hand, since it's a mistake that disparages Hillary, maybe all is okay.

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:55:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandy on Signal, jfm

        First of all, I think this can be interpreted either way. Second, as I highlighted in comments, everyone in Washington knew that these clowns were going to try and oust Saddam in Bush's first term, long before 9-11.

        Paul O'Neill and Richard Clarke both make this crystal clear in their books and the PNAC crew had been arguing for this for more than a decade when Bush took office.

        In fact, PNAC sent a letter to Bill Clinton in 1998 asking him to overthrow Saddam ASAP.  And that letter was signed by Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, John Bolton and Richard Perle (among others), all significant players in the administration and the architects of the Iraq policy.

        This was no secret in Washington which is why Hillary's "I was misled" defense rings as hollow now as it did for John Kerry in 2004.

        She knew they were hellbent on toppling Saddam... and they cynically exploited 9-11 to do something they were going to do anyway.

        •  'Everyone' supported regime change, if that's (0+ / 0-)

          what you mean. Including Russ Feingold. So, everyone knew Bush and Cheney wanted Saddam gone. But few people inside the beltway thought that Bush and Cheney would go to any length, including falsifying and cherry-picking intelligence, to get that job done. That's where everyone's hindsight is twenty-twenty now.

          For example, even Russ Feingold believed the WMD claims, and that Saddam was therefore a threat to his neighbors. Again, very few people (not even Feingold) thought Bush/Cheney were so obsessed that they'd mislead Congress on such an important matter.

          On your first point: it can be interpreted either way only if you ignore the context and everything Hillary has said and not said over the past 5 years. She's never said anything approaching "I thought in 2001-2002 that Cheney and Bush were so obsessed with taking out Saddam that they'd go to practically any length to get that done." And, anyway, if it can be interpreted either way, why did you interpret it one way instead of accepting the ambiguity?

          I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

          by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:23:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Using Feingold as an example is a bit ironic (0+ / 0-)

            ... isn't it?

            He voted against it.

            As for context, I disagree. There was indeed a general acknowledgment among many in Washington that Cheney and his crew (Feith, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld) were intent on going into Iraq before 9-11.

            Your continued claims that no one could imagine this group of individuals making the intelligence fits the case is baloney. There were plenty of people in the CIA and in the State Department who had vehement disagreements with the trumped up intelligence coming from the Vice President's office, and they made their disagreements known.

            I imagine that you will even refuse to admit that her vote was with one eye on the Republicans crying "Soft on terrorists" and one eye on her presidential ambitions, not unlike Kerry.

            By disagreeing with ANY criticism of her as you do here and in your diary, you undercut any validity your position may have.

            People in Washington knew damn well what these guys were up to. Paul O'Neill makes that clear. So does Richard Clarke. It was no secret.

            You're saying Hillary was a sucker.

            Maybe she is.

            Enough said.

            •  And so was Russ Feingold n/t (0+ / 0-)

              I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

              by fairleft on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:02:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  &, you didn't respond to either of my points (0+ / 0-)
              1. If it was so obvious that a lot of people knew Bush-Cheney were faking the case, why didn't Russ Feingold say anything? And, why did he believe that Saddam had WMD, if it was so obvious to so many that that was a pack of lies? I think it's because many people, including Russ Feingold and Hillary Clinton, didn't think they'd 'go that far'.
              1. If Hillary's statement can be taken either way, why not leave it at that? If you recognize that the statement is ambiguous, then don't interpret it one way or the other, and leave her statement as the non-issue it actually is.

              I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

              by fairleft on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:16:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary OCD...get over it, she is not going to (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Athena, diplomatic, cpresley, tigercourse

    Tuck tail and apologize. There is absolutely no reason why she should..

    Different day, same inane criticisms....

    She did not say Iraq was responsible for 9/11...in fact has said the opposite on numerous occasions...why is it we never see those snippets in your diatribes...?

    Looking at poll results over the last few weeks, looks to me like the American people understand what her position was on the war, and have accepted it...

    Her positives are increasing and negatives dropping...

    The only people obsessed with this are the Netroots...

    http://www.usatoday.com/...

  •  Her Response Abdicates Any Leadership (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    philgoblue, berith, adigal, potownman

    The constant formulation of the Clinton "taking responsbility" is simply tone deaf.  She blames the mess on Bush, but this response does not indicate that she could not be duped again.  It sounds too "triangular" -- you need to stop and think about this to feel as though you know what has been said.

    Remember the context of that vote -- Dems were very anxious to get past this thing to get to fighting the mid-terms and were willing to do much to get it off of the table.  THAT was the mistake -- a hugely wrong assessment of the politcal atmosphere that ceded way too much ground to the reubs.  AND gave the smear machine some legitimacy when that machine was focused on those of us who always doubted the intent and competency of GWBush.

    In many ways, she just abandoned us, and when I heard Edwards say he made a mistake, I also heard that he would not take "us" for granted again.  This is what Hillary needs to do, but frankly, I don't have any sense that she gives a damn about us...

    Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. - James Baldwin

    by cassandra m on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:40:23 AM PST

    •  "Responsibility" Also Implies (0+ / 0-)

      Actions to atone for the mistake, to alleviate the harm caused by that mistake.

      Otherwise, it is not tremendously different from Commander Cuckobanana's taking "responsibility" for his total fuckups.  And, not only doing nothing, but continually compounding the errors.

      To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

      by potownman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:04:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How "from NY" influences a reasoned decision (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    potownman, Captain Nimrod

    Assuming the rational about 9/11 and living in New York meant anything, history would look something like this:

    Input:

    As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and am still dealing with the after effects.

    -- Senator Clinton, February 2007

    Output:

    Because of my experience as Senator from NY, dealing with after effects of 9-11, I know the consequences of foreign policy mistakes and national security incompetence.  9-11 was a product of both.  

    Therefore I have a responsibility to my constituents and to all Americans to prevent the Bush administration from pursuing policies that will futher destablize our national security.  I therefore oppose and will vote AGAINST the resolution authorizing force.

    -- Senator Clinton, October 2002

    cl

    Religion is like Sodomy: Both may be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

    by Caoimhin Laochdha on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:42:00 AM PST

  •  She went right on purpose (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman, New Deal democrat, jfm

    Had nothing to do with anything except her aspirations to be prez.  Well now it ain't so comfy over there right of center.  

    She made a bad political call as did all those other creeps who voted by making a calculated political decision rather than an honest one.  

    Their vote allowed this administration to loudly equate patriotism as support for the war.  It went from bad to worse for those of us out here in the hinterlands after that vote.  It was way more than just a vote for the war: it was a vote for Bush's anti-terrorism policies world-wide.  

  •  Carville is an idiot (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, Steve In DC

    The worst thing Clinton could do about her bad vote in 2002 is to try to justify it by fraudulently attaching 9/11 to Iraq.

    The best thing she could do is to follow Edwards' lead and utter those three little words: "I was wrong."

    Full of good ideas since 1978. Follow the link for the latest one. -6.38, -6.00

    by wiscmass on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:43:22 AM PST

  •  It was a set up vote, come on Oct 2002 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, potownman

    The courageous few deflected the intense smear machine that was bulldozing DEMS back in 2002.  

    The GOP, Bush and Rove saw an easy teach those Islamic terrorist/dictatorship a lesson type war.  And to boot we get "easy" access to their oil, remake the region, have a strike point into Iran, and politically trap and crush the democrats politically.  All the GOP could see was a win-win all around.  Rove would get his political re-alignment, the GOP could put their operation on coast for a generation. And all of the republicans enemies, foreign and domestic, would be scattered.

    But just as my fury peaked with Gephart's totally fucked in the head deal with Bush in October it was frying pan in the face clear that the march to war was a fucking set up.  

    I mean, think back folks, Bush, Condi and Cheney spent most of 2002 bitching and moaning about Hussein, the inspections, the UN and the necessity to act agressively towards Iraq.  We had Hussein trapped, even if the sanctions got lifted, like the administration supposedly "feared", they would have been slapped back on at any hint of a violation.

    No, for the reasons I stated above they wanted war.  They wanted to put our Democratic leaders into a box and force a vote on the issue.  Thankfully, there were a few that saw past the slimejob, bulldozers and voted no but as Feingold has pointed out, the Democratics were in charge of the Senate and allowed the vote to pass.

    And for those who say that, well if the GOP was in charge(post 2002) they would have kept the original language and would have the option to attack Iran. Right, and they probably would have attacked IRAQ AND IRAN and the situation would have been so diasterous that Democrats would have won both houses of congress and the presidency in 2004 or Bush would have been forced to call for a draft or martial law.  Instead we've been living through the death of 1000 cuts in Iraq.

    so there's that.  Hillary doesn't have much time to admit her mistake and I think Gore understands this and is waiting in the wings.  I'm with kos, her judgement was bad when she first made the vote and her judgement is bad now about not willing to admit the mistake about the vote.  She is right about one thing, that we need to tie the Iraq war constantly to Bush because he ultimately made all the decisions that have led to this 4 year+ diaster but that framing does not absolve her.

    •  I have a fantasy...that Gore will walk onto (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk, gaspare, potownman

      a stage where Hillary is triangulating and prevaricating, and the crowd goes wild, screaming, "Gore, Gore, Gore" and he stands there and promises to be truthful and courageous, while Hillary fumes as she leaves, screaming at Bill, "You promised, and you failed me."

      Ha.

      My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

      by adigal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:04:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  new point about Hillary I posted at DU (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adigal

        Clinton is starting to get fiercer and fiercer criticism about her response to the IWR. It was a set up vote. Maybe the GOP would have crushed us in 2002 but we would have demolished them in 2004 instead of 2006. That is the uncertainty of war, fearful of huge caches of WMD being found in Iraq and DEMS being castigated for years, etc. Clinton is in a box now, and if she doesn't admit the mistake soon, the democratic public will grow tired of her nuanced answer. She is right about one thing and that's it's important to keep tying the mess in Iraq on Bush's decision but that doesn't absolve her vote.
        She can still say that I made my decision on the data provided by the White House, that data has since been shown to be cherry picked and inaccurate. I relied too much on this information, I did not heed the warnings by the critics and that was wrong, it was a mistake. Her response that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have voted for IWR just won't fly. Everybody knows she is stopping short. The electorate wants a politician that will make the best decision that they can but if they make a mistake admit it and take corrective action. Bush hasn't done that and that's one of the key things that is pissing off the electorate to no end. He won't admit invading Iraq was a mistake, they know he won't and worse he has barely changed any of the war's tactics in the last 4 frickin years. THE ELECTORATE DOES NOT WANT ANOTHER BULL HEADED PRESIDENT. IT AIN'T FRICKIN ROCKET SCIENCE.

      •  Forget about Gore already (0+ / 0-)

        He could'nt even win his own state (Tennesse). B. Clinton won Tennesse and Arkansas twice. We wouldn't be having these problems today if he had won TN.

    •  Kos misses the point. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gaspare, Caldonia, cpresley

      The point is that it was not Hillary's mistake, nor any of the people who voted for the authorization, but the sheer violation of trust by Bush.

      If a mistake was made, it was in assessing the massive character failure called Bush.

      Nixon pales. Perhaps Bush is the last violent heave of the corporate state before the Internet takes it down.

      But crucifying Hillary doesn't help us as much as it helps the corporations and the oligarchy. She DID try to get universal health care, you remember.

      Are you saying she is one of the masters, not one of us slaves? Then you must evaluate that honestly, not with dogwhistle purity trips.

      Listen Before You Talk.

      by ormondotvos on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:30:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No Kos does NOT miss the point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gaspare, jfm

        God there are so many mistakes out there that the pro-war crowd made. It does not all land in Bush's lap.

        Trusting Bush would count as a mistake

        If she just owned up to THAT she would get some slack.

        The thing that REALLY irritates me about her stance, is that it is an insult to all of us who called this correctly at the beginning.

        We figured it out. Yet somehow, she, and all those others who got it wrong, still didn't make a mistake?

        I'm sorry, you either got it right, or you didn't. And I didn't get this one wrong.

        Hey, I'm just a dude in Portland, OR and I got it right. I didn't get fooled.

        (excuse me, I'm not feeling especially eloquent at the moment, broke 4 ribs this weekend and am on pain meds)

        There were plenty of people who lined up against this war for a variety of reasons.

        Byrd took to the floor and gave an amazing speech on why the AUMF was a mistake. From a constitutional perspective he gave a compelling argument. He was right. She was wrong.

        There was something in Hillary's intellectual toolbox that failed her.

        What was it that failed? Her low level of skepticism? Logic? Understanding of the neocon agenda?

        Didn't she think we should at least finish with Afghanistan before we moved on to something else?

        There are many failures. Many of them belong to HRC.

        Just pick one and we can move on.

        There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

        by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:44:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  To hell with James Carville (8+ / 0-)

    By choosing former Georgia governor Zell Miller as his running mate, Al Gore could add intellectual brainpower, rhetorical firepower, and lots of plain old populist piss-and-vinegar to this staid election....

    Zell Miller is also a world-class campaigner and orator. His keynote address to the 1992 Democratic convention ranks with Barbara Jordan's and Mario Cuomo's as one of the finest examples of powerful rhetoric and partisan passion...

    At a time when politics seems moribund, Zell would bring energy. When people are looking for heroes, Zell's the real thing. And when Democrats need someone who's not afraid to open up a can of whupass on the radical right, they need look no further than Zell Miller.

    The above courtesy of  one James Carville about Zell Miller, keynote speaker For Clinton’s 1992 Convention and GW Bush’s 2004 Convention, back before Gore had picked a running mate for the 2000 dog and pony show.

    As a life long Democrat I’d just as soon not hear from Carville any more than I want to hear from Rove.

    The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

    by Bobjack23 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:44:07 AM PST

  •  Hillary is big money. Haven't they effed up (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, jfm

    our nation enough? down with the monarchy. up with for the people, by the people. not corporacites.

  •  The irony is that Hillary based her vote... (7+ / 0-)

    on politics. She was trying to be so careful not to do anything that would come back to haunt her, especially with conservative voters. She looked back at the vote before the Persian Gulf War and figured that voting for the war (which was popular in the polls at the time) was the safe thing to do. I don't think the question of whether or not going to war was right or a good idea entered at all into her calculations.

    Guess what? She calculated wrong. Her Iraq vote is not only coming back to haunt her, it will hang her. She doesn't like that? Well boo hoo hoo. Maybe she should spend less on consultants & polls and instead invest in a moral compass.

    Dulce et decorum est pro taxcutia mori?

    by Shiborg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:46:43 AM PST

    •  Who is your choice? (0+ / 0-)

      Want to know.

      •  I would vote for Gore if he ran. (0+ / 0-)

        Otherwise, I'm open to Edwards, or even Obama if I can be convinced that he is the real thing. I could even go for Clinton (I want to like her, I really do), if she can convince me that she stands for something, say, by taking a chance and getting out in front of some issue, any issue. She might actually do it, if the polls say she has to, but I'm not holding my breath.

        Dulce et decorum est pro taxcutia mori?

        by Shiborg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:22:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Honestly, she's spent some 40 years (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          working on Children's issues. She was on the board of a half dozen children's charaties. One of the criticisms of her is based on her support for Video game ratings. Her support of those is perfectly in line with her history of concern for children.

          She tried to get a 9/11 type panel to look into Katrina.

          She tried to filibuster Alito.

          She's supported nearly every liberal position the the Senate has taken up.

  •  Ridiculous (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman

    If a campaign advisor DOES relish some of the questions they get, then they aren't being asked hard enough questions.

    Hillary's vote had an affect on the lives of many American troops and families, and as long as anyone feels like her answers aren't satisfactory, they should keep asking it.

  •  So now a Dem is going the 9/11=Iraq route? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, adigal, potownman, Captain Nimrod, jfm

    Shoot me now.

    I don't want to be a disloyal Democrat, but I was begrudgingly going to be a good Democrat and vote for Hill if she earned the nom. Now I'm going to work very hard to make sure she doesn't get that nom, or else I might be tempted to write in a candidate for Prez come November 2008. :(

    •  The Two in the Same Breaths (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boofdah, jfm

      Are conflation, period.  And that is utterly inexcusable.

      I can say with absolute certainty, having nothing to do with being a "Sith", that there is no way in hell Clinton will get my vote in the NH primary.

      To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

      by potownman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:15:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's Why She Voted For It (11+ / 0-)

    Because (sadly) we live in a country where "strong but wrong" is more highly valued than "weak but right".

    Jesus Christ, I watched all of this unfold in late 2002 and early 2003 from a Lay-Z-Boy recliner in the middle of the country -- with no political experience, no military experience, no access to intelligence reports, no briefings, and no contact with the Pentagon -- and I knew this "case for war" in Iraq was absolute bullshit.

    I got it right, be she couldn't have gotten it right?

    Please.

    This woman is the same Republican-lite, DLC, offend-no-voter, third way, centrist, pandering opportunist that she's always been.

    If polls and consultants didn't exist, then Hillary Rodham Clinton would have absolutely nothing to say.

    We need something special in 2008, and she ain't it. Not even close.

    The Republican Party: Keeping America Fact-Free Since 2001

    by IndyScott on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:46:51 AM PST

  •  Which does she lack, judgment or courage? (7+ / 0-)

    It's got to be one of those two things. Either she thought invading Iraq was a good idea, or she didn't, but she voted for it anyway. Either disqualifies her in my mind.

  •  What's worse is her current Iraq Plan (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman

    It's just godawful and will not get us out of Iraq.  I realize the history is important and admitting mistakes, but frankly, the present and future is MORE important.  Obama has the best Iraq plan I have read, while Hillary's is extremely difficult to even understand, let alone implement.

  •  Carville is her advisor? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman, trinite, Steve In DC

    You can't bury this guy deep enough, apparently. He's the human equivalent of nuclear waste product.

  •  Endearing? No, but NYers wanted retribution... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, Caldonia

    ...and she did her job -- she represented her constituents' wishes at that time.

    That's part of the constitutional process she signed up for, the ones which NYers wanted her for and the one which we all -- including you, kos -- signed up for in this country of ours -- democratic republicanism.

    You markos -- made your bed by being an active part in this governing process.  You have to get over NY Senator Clinton's Iraq vote and move on.

    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

    by dcrolg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:48:29 AM PST

    •  Nay (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adigal, potownman

      What about the New York Congressmen who voted against the AUMF? Are you saying they didn't have their constituents' wishes in mind? Gerry Nadler? Was he going against the wishes of his constituents? John Conyers? Any of the others you think were neglectful?

      Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

      by darrelplant on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:02:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rangel (0+ / 0-)

        Sorry, I meant to type in Rangel, not Conyers.

        Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

        by darrelplant on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:20:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Upstate NY! (0+ / 0-)

        The other half of the state besides the City and the Island.

        Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

        by dcrolg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:28:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Triumphant! (0+ / 0-)

          With intelligence like that, you could work for Doug Feith at the Pentagon. You totally don't know what you're talking about, do you?

          Ten House Democrats from NY voted against the AUMF. Three were from western NY. The other seven were from Manhattan (2), Bronx, Brooklyn (3), and Far Rockaway. Or by "City and Island" do you plan to substitute Staten Island?

          Most of the NJ delegation voted against the AUMF, too.

          Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

          by darrelplant on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:24:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Please show me the poll (0+ / 0-)

      that says that New Yorkers wanted retribution! Even granting that you could (which I know you can't), the retribution Billary authorized was on a country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11.

      Gore 2008: Accept NO Substitute!

    •  Bull!! NYC had one of the biggest anti-war (0+ / 0-)

      demonstrations out there!

      Crap, crap, crap.

      And let's not forget, of course, that IRAQ was NOT responsible for 9/11.

      If nothing else, she had a MORAL obligation to say,

      Iraq is not responsible for what happened here. Let's not take our eye off the ball in Afghanistan.

      Democratic republicanism is not mob rule. Even IF NYC was crying out for Iraqi blood, as the cooler head, she should have been a leader.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:50:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Upstate NY! (0+ / 0-)

        The other half of the state besides the City and the Island.

        Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

        by dcrolg on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:29:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So Upstate New York demanded blood! (0+ / 0-)

          Better give the people their blood!

          she represented her constituents' wishes at that time

          And if constituents wish for immoral retribution against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, she had a moral duty to refuse.

          By your argument, Hillary would have made a great German.

          There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

          by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:56:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Mistake? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, adigal, potownman

    Maybe by definition it could be characterized as a mistake, but really it was a terrible "choice". Like so many other Dems who chose poorly at that time, she was afraid to be painted as "Un-American".  I believe that weighed in her judgement above all else.

    Senator Clinton is too calculating to make a mistake on such an important issue - she knew that she could argue that her vote was not an approval for an invasion, but she must have known it was. Hell, I did.

    She needs to admit she made a poor choice, not a mistake. A deadly and very damaging choice. Mistake let's her off too easy.

    If she continues with her "if I knew then what I know now" nonsense, she'll be hounded on this wherever she goes. And rightly so.

    "War is a poor chisel to carve out tomorrow." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Wayneman on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:48:40 AM PST

  •  How to Fix the Hillary Problem -- in 120 seconds! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal

    Donate today at johnedwards.com.

    I just did.  It feels good to help level the playing field.  (No, I don't work for his campaign!)

    If Hilary ends up the nominee, of course I'll vote for her, but right now, I want to help Edwards get his message and candidacy to the country.

    Donate today!

    •  So, despite the fact that he co-sponsored the (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, ebbinflo, curtadams, cpresley

      bill, and didn't support the ammendments for diplomacy that Clinton did, he's better? The man told you what you wanted to hear (maybe only because you wanted to hear it) and he's now the best choice, despite being even more wrong?

      •  Good point, but . . . (0+ / 0-)

        In fact, Edwards has "admitted" to making a mistake, and that is progress.  At the present time, I tend to think that my agenda is better served (that is, the agenda of  democrats winning the presidency) by having Edwards being a strong contender in the primaries, and strength includes his having money for campaigning.  If, in a year, I conclude that Hillary is more likely to win the general than Edwards, I would vote for her in the primary.  At the moment, my chosen action is to donate now to edwards.

        •  So it's (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          diplomatic

          oops I made a bad judgment call in the most important vote of my life.....but trust me this time.?

          "This is not a time for a candidate who will offend no one; it is time for a candidate who takes clear stands and kicks ass."....Molly Ivins

          by pelican on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:56:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  9/11 (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, potownman, Steve In DC, londubh, jfm

    Hillary and Carville are full of shit.  Hey, I was in Manhattan on 9/11 and have been every working day since.  I ride a commuter train and a subway, work in an office building.  I appreciate the fact every day when I leave my home that I'm a target and might never return.  So what.  What has that got to do with giving Bush matches to play with?

  •  You aren't doing the Democrats any favors Kos. (8+ / 0-)

    More and more people on this site are becoming Green/Republican supporters because of the constant hounding on Clinton and other Dems. She made a bad vote. But it's not her war. It's Bush's war. To keep going down this road constantly, muddies the waters and shifts the blame from him, toward the Democratic party. It's his war.

  •  "aided and abetted Bush's mistakes" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, bten, tigercourse

    You are becoming increasingly uncivil and this type of language should not be tolerated among those of us who wish to keep the discourse at a reasonable level. You have a vendetta against Sen. Clinton, and you will stop at nothing to take her down. Sounds a lot like the Republican strategies that I (and I hope many on this site) deplore. Posts like this highlight the childishness and arrogance of the founder of this site. This doesn't reflect on the Daily Kos community at large, but if it does I fear the continued marginalization of this and similar site.
    Please learn some nuance if you want validity, recognition, or power. Without nuance, you deserve none of those.

  •  Is Hillary Pretzel Soft or Hard? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thomasrodd, Sparhawk, adigal

    Whew! Hillary Clinton is certainly contorting her position on Iraq with John Kerry-like finesse--and very possibly to the same ultimate result.

    I wonder whether Hillary may worry more about losing significant financial backing from AIPAC-leaning funding "bundlers" in New York and elsewhere than about losing potential voters because of her squirming on the war. Until rather recently she was Joe Lieberman-like in her conviction that invading and occupying Iraq was an excellent idea, though perhaps imperfectly implemented.

    As it becomes increasingly clear to everyone except the Rovian Hard Core and Australian Prime Minister Howard that the decision to invade and occupy Iraq was an epochal blunder of political and strategic judgment, Hillary--already contorted into the appropriate pretzel shape--finds herself twisting aimlessly in the wind on this issue. It is not a pretty sight.

    Can we not expect presidential aspirants to display better judgment than Hillary has displayed thus far on Iraq?

    At least John Edwards has acknowledged his blunder in supporting (even co-sponsoring) the AUFM in 2002. Let's hope that he has really learned from it, though the handling of the recent furor over his two bloggers opens up more questions regarding political expediency versus principle in his campaign. Likewise, he recently rather carelessly used bellicose neocon rhetoric when discussing Iran. Perhaps he thought at the time that it was politically expedient to do so.

    Obama is the only major candidate in either party who has been prescient on Iraq from the get-go, but now he, too, is becoming extraordinarily cautious out of apparent fear of provoking the Foxist Noise machine. Consider his apology for using the word "wasted."

    If the Bush/Cheney decision to invade Iraq was a grotesque, irrational blunder, does it not logically follow that the lives--both American and Iraqi--lost in the whole delusional enterprise have indeed been pointlessly "wasted?"

    We should honor the personal sacrifice of the troops and the loss suffered by their grieving families, but in fact have not the deaths of our thousands, the wounding of our tens of thousands, and the deaths and wounding of the Iraqis' hundreds of thousands been needless, and therefore "wasted?"

    If not "wasted," then what word is a better one to describe these pointless casualties of a pointless war?

    •  Two Replies (0+ / 0-)
      1.  Remember that the Bipartisan AUMF that Edwards co-sponsored was not the White House AUMF that was called the Dashle-Lott Bill in the Senate.  The bipartisan AUMF was the best AUMF that was possible given teh split Senate and conservative Democrats who had stated they would vote for Dashle-Lott if the only alternative was Levin.
      1.  Note that Obama said nothing else against the war after the anti-war rally in October 2002.  I did a Lexus-Nexus search and found nothing that was anti-war, and only the mildest criticisms of the war during the Obama-Keyes debates.

      In those debates (and I need to see a full transcript of anyone has them), Obama said very mild stuff like:

      "This administration has not been very good at the exercise of what has been called 'soft power.'"

      He also gave a speech in July 2004 to the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations where he said such radically anti-war things like:

      "In every region of the globe, our foreign policy should promote traditional American ideals: democracy and human rights, free and fair trade and cultural exchanges, and the development of institutions that guarantee broad middle classes within market economies."

      and

      "We must maintain a strong military presence while encouraging the interim government to hold elections as soon as possible."

      There is more to the Obama-and-the-war story than just the one speech.  I think we should find out what it is.

      •  Fair Enough, but in that 2002 Speech Obama (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        berith

        ...had the insight to point out what it has taken many politically more experienced candidates five years to understand, i.e.,:

        ...What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

        What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

        That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

        Obama said it in 2002. Now a few others, such as Edwards, have caught up with Obama in 2007.

        If Edwards is the eventual Democratic nominee, I'll be happy to vote for him. And I certainly don't think that Obama is the perfect candidate. But Obama may well have more prescience, sounder judgment, and a greater capacity to lead and inspire than the other candidates have thus far displayed.

        We'll see how all of the candidates stand up to the rigors of public scrutiny during this campaign. It seems to me, though, that despite Hillary's fund-raising machine, careful triangulation, and bevy of professional political advisers, she at the moment seems to be stumbling in the view of the party faithful.

  •  I'm no Hillary fan. (6+ / 0-)

    She parses her words too closely. I'm skeptical of the judgment of anyone who voted yes to the war. The whole justifying her vote by bringing up 9/11 is despicable.

    At the same time, I am a little wary of beating this same "Hilary must apologize and in doing so use the words 'I made a mistake'" drum over and over and over. I mean, we run the risk of sounding like Chris Matthews and other MSM Hilary haters when we pick up all the same talking points.

    I'm not saying the criticisms are without substance or shouldn't be discussed at all. We're Democrats and this is our Primary. We get to criticize and hold our nominees accountable. At the same time: I think the MSM is doing a better job than left wing blogs are at reporting the short-comings of Giulliani and Romney, though they're still zombie like in their praise of McCain as a "maverick." Even we're falling short in our beating up of St. McCain these days. I wish we could re-focus our negative energy a little more toward crippling the GOP front-runners.

    •  Hezbollah strategy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cpresley, fairleft

      Don't you see what's going on?  This has absolutely nothing to do with getting Hillary to admit a mistake.  Do you think that Kos and the others in this thread are going to magically support Hillary if she says the words he wants?

      This is basically a strategy to try to destroy Hillary's candidacy.  I can it a Hezbollah strategy because Hezbollah is similarly dedicated to destroying Israel, and they therefore will come up with one rationale after another to attempt to do so.  (First, Israel must leave all of Lebanese territory.  Then, when Israel does leave all of Lebanese territory as certified by the U.N., some new territory is invented that is supposedly part of Lebanon, even though the U.N. says no.  If Israel leaves that territory, there will be a new rationale.)  Similarly, if Hillary did for some reason start to use the word mistake, Kos would find another related issue to pound her on.

      The name of the game here is not supporting the Democratic party, it's supporting a particular wing of the Democratic party.  Therefore, the main fire is aimed not at Republicans but at other Democrats.  Like any great propagandist, Kos knows how to seize on particular issues that he thinks will generate great Netroots support, even if they don't resonate with the public or even the broader base of the Democratic Party.  Hillary continues to soar in the polls no matter how desperate Kos attacks her.  Perhaps that's because for the vast majority of Americans, what's important is figuring out the best path forward, not quibbling over the wording of regret for a five-year-old vote.

      Don't get me wrong--I have no problem with people supporting their own candidates in a partisan manner, and fighting for what they think is best in the Democratic Party.  But I don't think the most effective way to do that is by aggressively attacking other Democratic candidates on the most trivial of issues (wording of regret on a vote that everybody says they wouldn't have made).  Let's support the candidates we want and argue why they will be the best candidate and president.

      •  durn (0+ / 0-)

        Everytime the topic is American politics, someone manages to drag Israel into it. I almost thought this thread had escaped that dread fate but I celebrated too soon.

      •  Agree, it's all about 'Destroy Hillary' (0+ / 0-)

        and has nothing to do with anything real. (Or with Hezbollah).

        It reminds me a lot of how the MSM hounded Clinton throughout the 90s over the Whitewater non-issue (and all those other fake non-issues). It didn't matter what the truth was, it didn't matter that the whole thing was invented by a right-wing billionaire, Clinton had to 'apologize' or they (including the NYTimes and WaPost) would keep on hounding him. And they did.

        And how the MSM hounded Gore in 2000, over meaningless (and made-up) stuff like "You said you invented the internet, apologize for lying." And then, when Gore said no, he didn't say that, they would hound him unmercifully. And then when the facts came out and Gore was right, it didn't matter, they found something else to harass him with.

        I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

        by fairleft on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:30:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's not just Hillary's problem (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, adigal, potownman, theark

    Hillary and Kerry and Lieberman, et al, voted for the war because conventional wisdom said anti-war candidates don't get elected president.

    But it was obvious at the time that this was not a just or necessary war, instead it was a disaster waiting to happen. Dean knew it, Clark knew it, Obama knew it, Feingold knew it. Invading Iraq, as I said at the time, was astoundingly stupid.

    Those that voted for the war lacked the guts to stand up to the Bushies and the vision to tell America another story. And it is exactly these qualities that will be necessary to lead this country out of the absolute nightmare that is the Bush Administration.

    A vote for the Iraq invasion--and that's what a yes vote was, don't try that hedging horseshit--was a vote for the worse act ever by a president in the history of this country. It is an insult to me to consider supporting any candidate who went along with it.

    "I made a mistake" or "If I had know then..." ain't good enough. You blew it. Step off.

    Our republic is in danger.

    by thinkdouble on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:56:03 AM PST

  •  Forgive and forget? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, potownman

    It seems simple to me.

    If Clinton had voted for the the use of force then said it was a mistake when there were no WMD she could easily be let off the hook, but she waited until now to kinda, maybe, but not for sure, be against the war she supported for nearly four years.

    In my book she was finished a log time ago.

    Add to this the Edwards campaign allowing the right wing to smear bloggers and then letting them resign (or forcing them out). That means Edwards is out too.

    It's going to be an easy primary for me. Weak candidates like Clinton and Edwards don't have what it takes to go up against the right wing spin machine.

    On the other hand Obama was hit by John Howard and he hit back within hours. That's what the winner has to do...hit back and hit back hard.

    Edwards didn't fight back and neither did Clinton. Both look weak because they are.

  •  Mrs. Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    Hillory did not make any mistake that any other hypocritical Democrat didn't.  Everybody said the same thing about WMDs ect.  Now you are trying to say you where missled. You can fool some
    of the people some of time but you can't fool us all the time

  •  Hillary is prolonging a debate that damages Dems. (5+ / 0-)

    The public wants her to admit a mistake, as Edwards has done. By refusing to do so, she continues to focus attention on Democrats' mistakes instead of Bush's---paradoxically this is what she says she wants to avoid.

    •  Very Cogent Comment! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      potownman

      That [the right-wing is] always wrong is a feature, not a bug. - Kos

      by RichM on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:13:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No she isn't, WaPost, NYTimes, and Markos are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      prolonging this 'debate'. She answers a single question at one rally, and it becomes a WaPost front-page headline and fodder on every cable pundit talkfest. She hasn't said anything since but somehow kos finds lots to talk about, wronglly stating that Carville is her 'adviser' and so on to get the Hillary connection established.

      And they won't let go if she 'admits she made a 2002 mistake in not calling on her 2007 hindsight'. They'll start going after her as a waffler, flip-flopper and so on. No matter what she does the MSM+kos will hound her.

      Why, as far as Markos and all you other kossacks are concerned, I don't know. She's about average (liberal/progressive wise) in the field that's shaping up: Edwards, Clark, Obama, Gore, Clinton.

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:49:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why is she so defensive, then? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        londubh

        and why does she use the "9/11 made me do it" argument?

        •  She isn't and she doesn't use that argument (0+ / 0-)

          Read http://dailyhowler.com/... on this.

          Here's some of it (emphasis removed):

          What’s wrong with these screeds by John and Ate? Let’s start with a basic factual point: Clinton’s highlighted comment doesn’t come from the "interview" to which John refers; according to Glover, it comes from a presentation she made at a meeting "with state Democrats at the party's headquarters." We can find no transcript of this event, and we get no real idea, from reading Glover’s story, exactly what Clinton had been asked or had said just before the highlighted statement. Did Clinton suggest, when she spoke with those Iowa Dems, that "Iraq had something to do with 9/11?" That would be extremely odd, since—like every other Dem on the planet—she has long said otherwise. (Beyond that, this comment would surely strike most Dem party leaders as being quite odd.) But Glover’s article doesn’t give us the context of Clinton’s highlighted comment. We don’t think Glover did anything wrong in putting this simple report together. But nothing he wrote can fairly suggest the conclusion John drew from it—the conclusion Atrios seemed to affirm. We can recall when we needed Sean Hannity to crank such attacks against Major Dems. By now, though, we’re all Sean Hannity (or Jim Nicholson). We can slander our own hopefuls now!

          Have we learned nothing in all these years? Readers, you can’t rely on a perfunctory AP report to provide a perfect account of someone’s statements at a political meeting. Glover doesn’t say that Clinton tied 9/11 to Iraq; John simply drew this inference from Glover’s report, and Atrios soon was thundering with him. And presto! Spin-o! Just like that, Clinton stood accused of telling an outright lie about Iraq and 9/11; seemed to be accused of lying about her whereabouts on 9/11; was said to be just like Cheney; and seemed to be hit with a vague charge of racism. It’s sad to see such familiar work coming from our own major bloggers. Such work became "familiar" when we heard it from Drudge. Now, we produce it ourselves!

          I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

          by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:09:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  In all fairness, I think you are wrong (0+ / 0-)

            I did not say that Hillary directly tied Iraq to 9/11. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she and Carville at a minimum have argued that because she is a New Yorker, 9/11 had a special effect on her which made her vote for the AUMF (well, why mention 9/11 in the context otherwise?)
            I find that argument quite insulting.

            •  Carville, what does he have to do with it?? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cpresley

              He's not in Hillary's campaign. That is a false 'fact' in kos's post.

              Hillary has a right to mention 9/11. Here's what she said, if we believe the AP (emphasis added):

              "As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and I am still dealing with the aftereffects," Clinton said. "I may have a slightly different take on this from some of the other people who will be coming through here."

              We don't know what "this" is referring to, since the AP reporter does not provide that information. End of story, end of interpretation, can we just let it rest at 'we don't know what she was referring to'?

              No, kos can't.

              I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

              by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:23:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Franky, I think the DailyHowler howls these days (0+ / 0-)

            Somerby went off the deep end some time in 2004 over the Wilson/Plame affair and I've been unable to read him since. This piece is typical: he shows the same kind of sloppiness he is always supposedly rooting out in others.

  •  RE: HRC and Carville (7+ / 0-)

    HRC needs to stop trying to be in the right position on every issue and take a stand for what she actually believes. I think that is why many of us find her unpalatable: She spends so much time trying to be on the right side of every issue that she seeems to stand for very little that isn't utterly safe (I mean, its like her getting up and saying she is against poor people starving...well most everyone is in favor of that!). I will even give Bush that much credit - he isn't afraid to stand up and take a strong position for what he actually believes (just too bad GWB is a moron who takes non-sensical positions).

    And Carville...the man is a straight up fool. I mean after Howard Dean's 50-state strategy paid off huge dividends in the Democrats retaking both sides of Congress, that idiot Carville said Dean should get the boot! The man is the equivalent of a snake oil salesman, and his foolish comments shouldn't even be given a lick of air play.

  •  Here's the question for HRC (et al.) with (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    by foot, ybruti, adigal, potownman

    a forward looking POV.

    Does she still believes as she apparently did in 2002 that the president--any president--should have the authority to launch a pre-emptive war? That's what she voted for on October 11, 2002 in H. J. Res. 114. She wrote W what Sen. Byrd called "a blank check."

    Does she now see the danger Sen. Byrd warned us of when he said in his floor speech:

    "It is the leaders of a country who determine the policy. It is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, a parliament or a communist dictatorship, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders....

    “All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”

    Byrd then identified the author of the quote: Herman Goering, founder of the Gestapo, president of the Reichstag, convicted war criminal.

    I think this is a perfectly good question for all candidates (for Pres or Congress), including Edwards, who also drank Bush's Kool-Aid. The question has nothing to do with temporal circumstances and the passion of the moment. It has everything to do with political temperment and maturity.

    I don't want a "unitary presidency" -- even if the president is a Democrat.

    "There is no 'policy' regarding a crime except to stop it." -- Dave925

    by RudiB on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:59:31 AM PST

  •  Twisted logic. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    potownman

    If Bush should not have started the war, then how can anyone claim that it should have been carried out in a better way?  This logic would be something like saying that you arrested the wrong person, but you were certainly good at finding him guilty.  This war was the wrong war at the wrong time against the wrong nation.  In short, it was a stupid decision, mistake, or whatever you want to call it.  That's why it's not working.

  •  She and the consultants are fighting the last (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orchid314, adigal, KOTCrum, londubh, entlord1, jfm

    elections--just like generals always fight the last war.

    The argument that opposing the war leaves a person vulnerable to charges that they aren't patriotic doesn't fly anymore because the American people are opposed to the war now and they think they're plenty patriotic, thank you very much.

    The fear of using the word mistake is a symptom of a candidate that doesn't trust the American people to get it right and understand things in context.  It's so ironic because Bill Clinton saved himself by trusting the American people.

    She doesn't think we can be trusted to understand--that's my complaint about her today.

    •  i just want to know (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RichM

      how you get a job as consultant. Since many of them pull down six figure salaries plus side income, I would like to be a consultant.  Since 90% of presidential consultants will advise a losing candidate, I can confidently state that I am at least average when it comes to consultants and maybe even above average, if dumb luck is computed into the equation.

  •  If the nominations go to Hillary and Hagel... (3+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    RichM, terryhutchinson, jfm
    Hidden by:
    fairleft, tigercourse

    I will vote and contribute and work for Hagel.  

    In 16 years of voting, I have never voted for a Republican at any level excepting my "retention" votes for certain republican judges.   But I have a specific dislike for this frisky-husbanded, Murdoch-befriended, pro-war DLC corporate money machine.

    I doubt that the reality of 650,000 Iraqi corpses and the obliterated structure of international law has crossed her conscience for a second.

    I wonder if that coldness and machine-like demeanor of hers had something to do with Bill's affairs.

    "Overgrown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty." George Washington, 1796.

    by acquittal on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:07:08 AM PST

  •  Great post (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thomasrodd, KOTCrum

    In all honesty, I do not want an apology, an explanation or an admission her vote was a mistake. That is all semantics and water over the bridge. I vowed in 2002 I would never support the candidacy of anyone in Congress who voted in favor of the war resolution. That was my individual way of holding those people accountable for what I thought was the most egregious vote any Congress has voted since Reconstruction or the Volstead Act. I will support the nominee by voting with my fingers squeezing my nose if it is Clinton, but there are at least 4 good candidates running who did not vote for the war. Each one of them would make a fine president. Clinton's candidacy is a non sequitur for me.

  •  Let her have her vote... (0+ / 0-)

    if she can't stop pandering to hatemongers and the kleptocracy, she can go down with them.

    Gore/Obama '08!

  •  The $100,000 question. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orchid314, theark

    Ask her if she had a chance to view the classified 90-page October, 2002 NIE -- the one that reportedly reflected all the doubts about WMD, nukes and so forth -- that the executive summary most of congress read didn't.

    Reportedly, only six Congresspeople chose to read the original in its entirety, under secured conditions.

    It's good for your enemies to think you're a little crazy. As long as you can back it up.

    by dov12348 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:10:32 AM PST

  •  Here we go again. (5+ / 0-)

    Hillary haters, PILE ON!.

    Are you folks gonna be satisfied by anything short of public decapitation?

    I'm sick of America being covered by conservative crap

    by emsprater on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:13:11 AM PST

    •  WE'LL BE SATISFIED WHEN THE COWARDS LEAVE (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      revbludge

      THE RACE.  Give me one of the 20 smart, honest people who voted agains t the war please.... she is shameless having the fucking ass hole carville trying to linke 9/11 & sadaam... how many years did it take us writing to the press daily to lose that pile of lies, these people are just unbelieveable.  they would do ANYTHING  to get power back.

      Confusis Said: Once you embark on a journey of revenge, dig 2 graves.

      by bluecayuga on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:16:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What you said... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga, revbludge

    ...they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening.

    and

    Arguing that since New York was hit, we had to bomb the fuck out of a country that had nothing to do with it, then invade it and lose what will eventually be a trillion dollars and countless lives is really not an endearing argument.

    Thank you. I agree with you 100%.  I cannot support Hillary, and it will be damn hard to support any of those who vote for the AUMF.  It is unbelievable to me that they couldn't see what they were doing.

    "War doesn't determine who is right, war determines who is left." ~ Bertrand Russell

    by Pandora on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:13:24 AM PST

  •  I'm not voting for har or anyone who tries to... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga, terryhutchinson

    ...defend the indefensible with word-pretzels.

    Did she or did she not, read the full NIE prior to her vote?

    It's good for your enemies to think you're a little crazy. As long as you can back it up.

    by dov12348 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:13:27 AM PST

  •  The ignorance defense and the Gulf of Tonkin (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nonie3234

    I e-mailed Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer on the eve of the war authorization vote and reminded them that they were both old enough to remember the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and that they had no excuse for giving Bush a blank check.  I also said that if they did so, I would never vote for them again.  Until I see some evidence that they have developed better judgment, that promise holds.

  •  She's a different animal here (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thomasrodd, diplomatic, curtadams

    a) I think it's wrong to minimize the effects of 9-11 PTSD on how people were thinking (or not thinking) in late 2002 and early 2003. If you watched the attack coverage on TV and had vague thoughts about a roommate living in New York, that was a lot different from physically watching the attacks live, which was a lot different from being somewhere where the dust got in your eyes, which was a lot different from being in the towers that morning. And all that must have been a lot different than being Hillary Clinton, huddling in a bombshelter somewhere, wondering whether an airplane was going to crash into her, or maybe whether a suitcase nuke was going to show up somewhere very nearby. And wondering what her daughter in Manhattan was doing. To the extent that generally well-meaning members of Congress let genuine 9-11 PTSD cloud their judgment with respect to Iraq, I'd say, hate the folly, love the fool.

    b) The big reason why HRC's vote matters more than any other current presidential candidate's vote is that she is Bill's wife. One way or another, the belief in Congress must have been that, in real life, one way or another, through pillow talk or sleep talking or overheard conversations, she knew roughly what Bill Clinton knew about Iraq's WMD program, and that she had access to much better evidence concerning the program than ordinary members of Congress had seen. Maybe some Democrats in Congress voted for the war simply because HRC did. So, I think HRC's vote for the war is a lot more troubling than Kerry's early ambivalence about the war, or even than Edwards' cosponsorship of the war.

  •  On Charlie Rose 2/12/07 (7+ / 0-)

    Monday night there was interesting conversation on Charlie Rose which focused on the 08 race, and was limited to Clinton-Obama-Edwards. The following guests made some interesting points:

    MARK HALPERIN
    Political Director, ABC News
    JONATHAN ALTER
    Senior Editor / Columnist, Newsweek
    PATRICK HEALY
    The New York Times

    Several things struck me. Healy, who has been assigned to follow Clinton, said that speaking with aids, he learned that the decision about the content of her answer regarding the IWR, was made last summer. They are not ready to move from that because of Clinton's difficulty of looking weak. Also, all of the members of the panel were fairly sure that Edwards will be attacking her about her position.

    For me, the entire conversation made me ill. For the pundits and for the Clintons this isn't about the country, this is about a marketing strategy. I am offended that gobs of money and polls has replaced the democratic system. Yeah sure, this is the real world, but that does not make it right. How does crashing the gate get done when we defended the lame decisions of "handlers"? And yet, some members of the netroots, who used to know better, now finds it the newer and better way to go.

    BTW, Healy also said that the Clinton camp is now considering letting her fall a bit in the polls and grab the ring at the end. Thus, she would take the target off of her back. Watch for it. Coming soon to some infotainment cable show, as the selling of the democracy continues.

    People are dying, and the candidates are jockeying for positions. I thought we were smarter than this. It was called the "WAR" resolution for a reason, or did the war-voters fail to notice that? She voted "yes" because of her handlers, and any new position will be decided by them.

  •  Mrs. Pander Bear (0+ / 0-)

    Paul Tsongas is looking down from somewhere with a wry smile.

  •  Anyone, including a Dem (0+ / 0-)
    that uses this argument is a NeoConservative.
    That means they are a Zionist doing AIPACs bidding.

    Its not about being "hit."   Its about serving the interests of the US allies in the region.

    The NeoCons and Likud want a regional war against Islam/Arabs.  For some its about oil, for others its about racism and religiosity.  Why else would she use the word "existential" if she hadn't been schooled up on what position to hold by AIPAC (heard that last part on Dem! Now!

  •  Contrast her to another NY senator on Vietnam... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga

    RFK openly broke w/ LBJ on Vietnam in a Senate floor speech on 3/2/67.  In that speech, he acknowledged that 2 prior WH's, including one in which he was a major figure, had originally gotten the US involved in Vietnam.  He stated:

    As one who was involved in many of those decisions, I can testify that if fault is to be found or responsibility assessed, there is enough for all to go around--including myself."

    RFK didn't say "I was misled" or "I was misinformed."  He didn't say "if I knew then what I know now."  He openly admitted that he had been wrong.

    I don't expect HRC to ever make a mea culpa on Iraq like RFK's on Vietnam.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:24:22 AM PST

    •  But "I was misled" would have been the truth (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fairleft

      for both RFK and Clinton.

      •  Oh puhll-eeze... (0+ / 0-)

        Why wasn't that noted pacifist Bob Graham misled?  What about the other 21 Dem senators who voted "nay?"  What about the solid majority of House Dems who voted "nay?"

        She made a terrible mistake, and she won't admit it.  Her unwillingness to admit the mistake will probably cost her more than the mistake itself.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:34:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Blaming others for your mistakes (0+ / 0-)

        is not a good idea.  How could anyone be "misled" by GWB?  The guy doesn't know where he's going.  I don't think I'd trust him with many important decisions, especially if they require knowledge and understanding of the world.  Geez, he didn't even know about the Sunni/Shi'ite problem in Iraq and apparently made no effort to find out.

  •  time to come clean Hillary! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Lager Lad

    wouldn't you feel better? you owe it to the mound
    of corpses you heaped a helping onto. it so insincere
    when she completely blames the repubs...sure they
    do bear the brunt of the responsiblity but so do the
    dems who voted for authorization.

  •  It's just foolish to pretend (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thomasrodd, diplomatic, Caldonia

    that 9/11 didn't have anything to do with why senators and congressmen, including Hillary, voted to authorize Bush to go to war.

    The truth is that as a senator representing New York, for Hillary to vote against that resolution in 2003 would have meant political suicide.

    The fact that it doesn't mean the same thing now, with hindsight, doesn't negate the fact that she was far from the only senator to vote for it.

    I think there is actually something principled in her refusal to repudiate her vote.  She voted to give the President authority to exercise war powers.  Saying she's sorry is not going to change that.  It actually seems less pandering than the stances of Edwards et. al.

    I wish Kos was as effective against Republicans as he is against those in his own party who disagree with his positions.  There's something downright Stalinist about demanding ideological purity in this way.

  •  Absolutely agree ... but there's another reason (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orchid314

    Another reason not to give HRC a pass:

    It helps maintain an environment in which our legislators (and executive officials) aren't held to account.

    We need to run, fast, away from a wishywashy approach to dealing with the war votes.

    The flip side of this is that not giving HRC a pass helps tell Congress we're serious about ending the war.

    John Kerry is atoning for the vote exactly as he should.  More power to him.

    Where's the leadership from Senator Clinton on this?

    (finally, I don't care so much at the moment about HRC ending the war in 2009 if she's elected.  I want to know what she is doing to end the war right now)

    It's time to get serious about renewables and efficiency. It's time to win the oil endgame.

    by by foot on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:27:49 AM PST

  •  Hillary will not get my vote (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga

    Anyone who behaves like Bush, in willfully refusing to admit past mistakes, and that is precisely the point, will never get my vote. Edwards made the right move. Obama actually made the best move, but he's unelectable.  But Edwards/Obama, now there's a ticket.

    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed." Abe Lincoln

    by mdgarcia on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:29:46 AM PST

  •  Here's a challenge: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nonie3234

    First, let me reprint a comment from Steve Gilliard's blog which I think accurately describes Sen. Clinton's thinking:

    "Covering up for patrons may have a little to do with it. The main thing here is that Clinton wants to preserve the prerogative of presidents to use military power with as few checks as possible. If the bad outcome is a result of the incumbent's compentence, then the obvious solution is to change the incumbent. If the bad outcome is a result of the entire process, the secrecy, the corruption, then naturally procedural changes are needed, changes that will necessarily limit the prerogative of the president to use military power. Clinton does not want that because it would constrain her future, prospective power as president. She may not want to repeat Bush's performance, but she doesn't want a bunch of congresscritters looking over her shoulder either.

    -- ploeg "

    This is exactly correct. When Clinton was President, the GOP was extremely uncooperative in authorizing military action---to the extent that they damaged his foreign policy effectiveness.
    At least, this is what Hillary thinks.

    So: first thing: Do you agree with this assessment? If so, then you want to find a way for Hillary to make a mea culpa which does not limit what she could do as President.

    If you disagree with the assessment, then obviously getting an apology for the AUMF vote is the main thing.

  •  Gore, Clark, Obama.........Come on people! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keestone, bluecayuga, berith, trinite

    We have such great candidates that opposed this war from the beginning. Why should we settle for HRC? She trusted bush, and we need our next president to have better judgment in people than that.

    If we didn’t have others in the mix, I would back her. But we are not in the situation. Barack Obama, Al Gore, Wes Clark, Bill Richardson are all way better choices then Clinton because they have better judgment.

    On top of that how do we explain her positions to friends, family, and coworkers at the water cooler where elections are truly won or lost? Do you remember trying to explain what Kerry meant by "we must pass a global test" remark? His position on the war? What he did after Vietnam?

    We need clear, non-bull crap positions. HRC does not have that.  

    •  What about supporting getting us out, with a date (0+ / 0-)

      certain? That's what matters now.

      Gore and Clinton are against giving a definite date for getting us out. Clark may be too.

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:37:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clark has not given a date.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fairleft

        because he'd like to see a diplomatic surge, and the firm date to come out of those talks, with agreement by all parties.  And he's right - that would be the best and safest way to do it, and it's what he's been focusing his efforts on. But he also said that if this president is unwilling to do that, we may as well bring them home.

        Democrats - We refuse to caucus in the missionary position.

        by SaneSoutherner on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:28:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I also like Clark. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SaneSoutherner

          He's smart, knowledgeable, and not afraid to tell the truth.  He needs a good speechwriter.

          •  Clark, Gore, Clinton same: no date for out (0+ / 0-)

            They are all inferior to Edwards and Obama, who do have specific date by which the troops are out (well, Obama hedges and says all 'combat' troops would be out by a certain date, and that date could be 'delayed' if certain conditions are met).

            Anyway, these facts could be the basis for a fine discussion on what really is wrong with Hillary.

            Not this bogus, 'WHY DIDN'T YOU HAVE 2007 HINDSIGHT IN 2002?" discussion.  

            I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

            by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:30:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

        Gore would do the right thing if he were in-charge much as he did in firmly opposing the war:

        Gore's speech against the war, 9/23/2002
                Former Vice President Al Gore
                 Iraq and the War on Terrorism
                 September 23, 2002
                 Prepared Remarks

                 "If Saddam Hussein does not present an imminent threat, then is it justifiable for the Administration to be seeking by every means to precipitate a confrontation, to find a cause for war, and to attack?"

                      "I believe we should focus our efforts first and foremost against those who attacked us on September 11th and have thus far gotten away with it. "

                      "the coalition assembled in 1991 paid all of the significant costs of the war, while this time, the American taxpayers will be asked to shoulder hundreds of billions of dollars in costs on our own."

        ~~~~~~~~~~

             Hardball College Tour: Al Gore

             Dec. 11, 9 p.m. ET Lehman College, The City University of New York
              Updated: 3:25 a.m. CT Nov 26, 2002

             MATTHEWS: But you would have voted against it.

             GORE: I would have voted against that resolution. I would have voted against it.
        ~~~~~~~~~~

           The Nation
           posted October 3, 2002 (October 21, 2002 issue)
           Al Gore, democrat

           Eric Alterman

        The nexus of the punditocracy's twin "love war/hate Gore" obsessions helps to explain the astonishing explosion of invective unleashed by Gore's calm and soberly delivered warning in San Francisco--one that echoed the underreported testimony of three four-star generals given to Congress the same day.

        The New York Post headlined its editorial, "Al Gore, Wimp." Sean Hannity observed, "He's sweating profusely.... He didn't look presidential. I didn't see any gravitas, any leadership," and added, "Are we watching something similar to appeasement before our eyes?" ABC's George Will called the speech "moral infantilism." His Washington Post sidekick, Charles Krauthammer, called it "a disgrace." Their colleague Michael Kelly penned a column that makes Ann Coulter sound like Isaiah Berlin. Kelly termed the speech "dishonest, cheap, low," "hollow," "wretched," "vile," "contemptible," "a lie," "a disgrace," "equal parts mendacity, viciousness and smarm" before running out of adjectives. (If the Post really wants this kind of thing, they should consider replacing the barking-mad Kelly with our prodigal son, Christopher, who at least bashes liberals with a bit of style and panache.)

        ...

        But he sure galvanized Tom Daschle and other Democrats to face up to a frightening juggernaut for war they would have preferred to duck for the sake of re-election. Naderites take note. It was not "smart" in the Washington sense. It was not strategic. But damn it, it was brave. The victim of a stolen presidency demonstrated why democracy matters.

    •  I like your threesome. (0+ / 0-)
  •  How can you call it a "mistake?" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Professor Fate

    When anyone who was paying attention knew the evidence was cooked--it's more than admitting to a mistake.

    I want to hear her explain how she could have voted for that resolution, knowing full well it was based on falsified evidence and claims.

    •  You're right. (0+ / 0-)

      It can also be viewed as a selfish political calculation, which is why what she's doing now is so bad.  Her current approach makes her sound like she hasn't changed ... it's politically "too risky" to admit a mistake (God forbid any senator would ever come clean on it being a political calculation).

      It's time to get serious about renewables and efficiency. It's time to win the oil endgame.

      by by foot on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:33:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Edwards must do same? & what about Russ Feingold? (0+ / 0-)

      How about everyone who thought Saddam had WMD, including Russ Feingold? Does he need to get on bended knees and beg forgiveness?

      How about everyone who supported regime change in Iraq, including Russ Feingold? Does he need to get on bended knees for this too and beg forgiveness?

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:36:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Edwards, Hillary are both damaged goods! (0+ / 0-)

      They can both spin endlessly about explaining why they voted for the war, but it will do no good. Millions of Americans will never support them and they will never be elected because of their "trying to look tough" actions.

  •  The issue is moral character (7+ / 0-)

    Hillary's problem is not just the war vote, but what it tells us about her principles. It was self evident that the war was immoral at the time the vote was taken.

    1. It was not self-defense. The Al-Qaeda link was simply not credible to anyone who understood the distinction between secular Arab nationalism and  Sunni Muslim theocracy.
    1. It was not a last resort. Sanctions and inspection were not over, and even if Hussein had acquired nukes he was deterrable.
    1. It was not an achievable objective to impose a secular democracy by external agression against a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, anti-colonialist populace with a weak national identity, no history of democratic institutions, and no functioning civil society apart from religious institutions.
    1. Given #3, there was no prospective benefit in replacing one tyrant with another (or with civil war) to offset the certain harm that war would bring.

    But for HRC, and every other senator who voted for this war, the principle of preserving one's own politcal career outweighed the lives, treasure, and international moral authority of our country which it was clear at the time would be sacrificed.

    "What is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?" - J. Madison

    by berith on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:30:27 AM PST

    •  Feingold, like Hillary, didn't have hindsight (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tigercourse

      He agreed that the evidence suggested Saddam was pursuing WMD. He also agreed we could not simply return to the earlier UN inspections regime. He also agreed with the goal of regime change.

      So, were you at any time a supporter of Russ's campaign for President? Why did you let him slide on his terrible moral character? Does he now need to apologize for not having hindsight?

      See his October 11, 2002, Why I Oppose Bush's Iraq War Resolution:

      And with regard to Iraq, I agree that Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I agree, I support the concept of regime change.

      And I agree, therefore, Mr. President, we cannot do nothing with regard to Saddam Hussein and Iraq. We must act. We must act with serious purpose and stop the weapons of mass destruction and stop Saddam Hussein. And I agree a return to the inspections regime of the past alone is not a serious, credible policy.

      In any event, I oppose this resolution because of the continuing unanswered questions, including the very important questions about what the mission is here, what the nature of the operation will be, what will happen concerning weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as the attack proceeds and afterward, and what the plan is after the attack is over. In effect, Mr. President, we're being asked to vote on something that is unclear. We don't have answers to these questions. We're being asked to vote on something that is almost unknowable in terms of the information we've been given.

      And so this moment -- in which we are responsible for assessing the threat before us, the appropriate response, and the potential costs and consequences of military action -- this moment is of grave importance. Yet there is something hollow in our efforts. In all of the Administration's public statements, its presentations to Congress, and its exhortations for action, Congress is urged to provide this authority and approve the use of our awesome military power in Iraq without knowing much at all about what we intend to do with it.

      We are about to make one of the weightiest decisions of our time within a context of confused justifications and vague proposals. We are urged, Mr. President, to get on board and bring the American people with us, but we don't know where the ship is sailing.

      I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

      by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:07:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No ... (0+ / 0-)

        I never supported Feingold, and no I will not give him a pass on character either. Nor Edwards. For the record, I supported Wes Clark in 2004.

        "What is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?" - J. Madison

        by berith on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:20:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sad, just read dailyhowler (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, brek, tigercourse, Edgar08

    and not kos on Hillary. We can review the MSM and perhaps kos's inaccuracies there.

    Too many lies and spin to review, but you can also look at my recent diaries on this kos problem.

    And a new inaccuracy: James Carville is a Hillary advisor? Not according to a google search and Wikipedia. Long-time Clinton insider: yes, fair play. Clinton advisor: inaccurate.

    I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

    by fairleft on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:32:47 AM PST

  •  Culpability (0+ / 0-)

    All those (legislators and citizens) who didn't vote no or speak out are culpable. That's why the comparisons to Nazi Germany are so apt. "Hitler the madman" and "W the sociopath" are true, but incomplete.

    It's too bad for Hillary. There is so much I like about her. Compromise is necessary but sometimes it's dangerous. One needs to discern the proper balance. When one falls short, one should take responsiblity for the error immediately.

  •  Hillary and Dubya have same problem. (0+ / 0-)

    The plan to set up a military presence in the ME was concocted long before Clinton or Dubya arrived on the scene.  Bush I got cold feet and Bill Clinton dilly dallied, so by the end of his term, there were a lot of people who had lost patience with Iraq not letting us in. Dubya was just trying to do better than poppy and Hillary wants to do better than Bill.
    If Hillary admits to a mistake now, she leaves herself open to scorn from all the people who gave bill a hard time for "not supporting the military"--i.e. the plans to consolidated American supremacy by planting the flag in the Eastern Hemisphere.  If she does that, all her support will be gone.

  •  Ok, most here agree that it may be too late for (5+ / 0-)

    HRC to say "I made a mistake" or "I am sorry about that vote," lest it would be seen as pandering or not real.  Thus, the issue of that non-apology , at long last, has been laid to rest.   I personally believe that she has done just that, just not directly.  But anyone makes up their mind what they want to read into comments, regardless.   Or how they view the sincerity of comments.  For instance, Edwards simple "I made a mistake" makes him the new darling, despite the fact that he actually CO-SPONSORED the authorization bill.  CO-SPONSORS are directly responsible for the language that appears in the bill, are direct enablers by showing explicit support, which is a far cry from merely voting for a bill.  Yet, it's all peachy where he is concerned because he uttered the three words "I am sorry."     Ever considered that the admission was made to curry favor with a target group?  

  •  Clap clap clap (0+ / 0-)

    This is probably the best comment I've read by you, kos. Well written and dead on.

  •  AL GORE (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga

    Until it is too late to enter the race, this is going to be my answer to every blog on the subject of Iraq.  I find it amusing that Hot Soup ran a story on this again, and a pix of Al Gore in Hollywood, just hit all three networks of the MSM.  Don't get me wrong, I still want a strong military, and I want a war....any war -- to be an answer to an aggression, not a unilateral mistake.  I think the answer again, is Al Gore.

  •  Hillary's fatal mistake... (6+ / 0-)

    Four years ago Senator Clinton listened to the NeoCons when she should have been listening to the American people. I felt betrayed by her vote for a war that was clearly based on a pack of NeoCon lies. She does not deserve to be President.

  •  I wonder (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, cpresley, tigercourse

    I have to ask myself every time I see one of these Hillary Smack-a-thons: Suppose she did an interview with Olbermann today and said precisely what you want.  Called it an enormous mistake, begged for forgiveness, etc.  How many of the people screaming for her to do that would then say, "Oh, OK, I'll support her now," or even, "Oh, I'll give her a pass on that vote and not hold it against her any longer"?  And how many would suddenly scream that she was only saying for political gain?

  •  Refusing to admit her mistake is an insult . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga, clarquistador

    to those of us who got it right.

    Hey, you either got it right or got it wrong. And if you got it wrong, you need to reassess the thought processes/logic that you used to arrive at your conclusions.

    If you refuse to admit error, you cannot reassess. If you cannot reassess, you cannot improve.

    We've had enough of that to last us for a while.

    There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

    by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:58:16 AM PST

  •  Hillary will not admit mistake (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic

    as she said the other day, she made a decision to vote in favor of the Iraq war resolution because it was the right thing to do based on what she knew the intelligence to be. If she's telling the truth about that, and why wouldn't she be, then there was no mistake made.
    What am I missing?
    And just to let you know, I've been protesting this war before it started and since, and I'll be in DC on Mar 17th.

    Keep Religion in Church

    by titotitotito on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:58:27 AM PST

    •  What was it that enabled her to get it wrong (0+ / 0-)

      and you and me to get it right?

      Obviously you and I were thinking things through using certain logic tools and healthy doses of skepticism.

      Why did she not use those tools and that skepticism? Why was she so gullible?

      Being gullible IS a mistake for someone who wants to be a world leader.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:37:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I respectfully disagree... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diplomatic

        The Websters definition of Gullible: easily duped.
        I don't think Hillary is gullible. She is an extremely intelligent person, and extremely capable. Although she didn't make the same decision that I came up with, just sitting around in my living room watching tv... I still trust her to make good decisions in the future. I'm not really a big Hillary supporter though, probably go with Edwards in the primary.

        Keep Religion in Church

        by titotitotito on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:47:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  She's now rattling the Iran cage with her sword (0+ / 0-)

          Is that a wise move?

          Why, of all the fights to make right now, is she picking THAT fight and strengthening Bush's position.

          I see her making the SAME mistake again. I don't think she's learned.

          There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

          by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:52:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gore, Edwards, Obama, Clinton and Clark all (0+ / 0-)

            have basically the same rheotric and position on Iran.

            •  I think that Hillary is being a lot more hawkish (0+ / 0-)

              than anyone else out there.

              Obama et al. will talk about Iran if asked, but they're using their equity to talk about issues that matter to the average voter. And when they do talk about it, I hear "political" solution mentioned more often.

              I see Hillary being much more combative about Iran.

              In my opinion, it would be better to not talk about Iran in a way that enhances Bush's position. That's what I see HRC doing.

              There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

              by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:24:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Ideology and Partisanship (0+ / 0-)

        When presented with conflicting evidence people tend to support the evidence that supports their Ideology most.

        The anti-war folks were thus right.  When presented with evidence that Saddam had WMDs, the natural inclination was to question that evidence.  When presented with evidence that there were no WMDs, the inclination is to believe it without question.

        Also Partisanship.

        Much of Sen. Clinton's rationale is not just based on knowing what we know now about WMDs, it has to do with knowing what we know now about how Bush would execute the war.

        And on that count as well.  The Partisan looks at anything planned by a Republican and automatically concludes it is based on lies.

        I know at least one Bush Supporter and Iraq war supporter who believed that the Bush Admin would utilize the sage counsel of Powell, and not push Powell out and implement the Rumsfeld agenda.

        Clinton's decision therefore was not based on Ideology or Partisanship.  That's what enabled her to get it wrong, and others to get it right.

  •  HILLARY IS TRYING TO BRAND THE REPUBLICAN'TS... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, cpresley, tigercourse

    with IRAQ while the Republican'ts are trying to brand the loss of the war on Democrats.

    She has stood up for her vote. She has said you don't get do-overs. It is so easy to say I was wrong and move on. She is not doing that.

    THE REPUBLICAN'TS HAVEN'T TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR LYING US INTO THE WAR. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

    When you attack Hillary on Iraq, you are doing the Republican'ts work for them. STOP IT. If you are going to get on your high horse about Democratic candidates attacking each other, then stop attacking Hillary. IT'S THE SAME THING, stupid!

    And I'm not even sure this is about the war. I think it is about something else. Maybe those big strong men warriors can't stand the idea of a woman ruler, I mean president.

    In all likelihood she is going to be the president, thank god. The last thing we need right now is an empty suit with no clue how to campaign or govern. These stupid people following Obama around remind me of the stupid people who followed Ross Perot around in another election.

    HAS IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU KNOW IT ALL'S THAT MAYBE THE REBUBLICAN'TS AND THE NEOCONS ARE PUSHING OBAMA FOR A REASON???

    HEY, it's just my opinion. But get off Hillary's back. You want another neocon for president? If you don't stop attacking Democrats, you may get one.  

    •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

      An apology is not a difficult thing to do at all.

      Especially when it coincides with the "Worth It/Not Worth It" poll going negative.

    •  "It is so easy to say I was wrong and move on" (0+ / 0-)

      Then do it.

      Admitting that one made a mistake is part of being an adult.

      Only after one admits his/her mistakes, can one look at WHY one made that mistake. Only after figuring out WHY one made the mistake, can one take steps to insure that THAT mistake will not happen again.

      Yes, you can't do do-overs. But you have to admit what went wrong.

      There were plenty of us that got it right. What was it that we were thinking or reading or seeing that enabled us to get it right? Why didn't Hillary see that?

      "When you attack Hillary on Iraq, you are doing the Republican'ts work for them. STOP IT."

      Really, and then you attack Obama and the people following him!?

      What happened to, "If you don't stop attacking Democrats, you may get one."

      Who made the divine decision that Hillary is pre-ordained and that Obama is somehow just in the way?

      "When you attack Hillary on Iraq, you are doing the Republican'ts work for them."

      That sounds disturbingly like "If you attack Bush you are supporting the terrorists."

      Listen, you do not have a monopoly on truth. You are as likely to be wrong about anything as I am. It is up to both of us to question each other's positions and candidates.

      I do not like Hillary's positions. There is very little that she says that I like. So because somehow YOU think she is beyond reproach, I am just supposed to shut up?! Excuse me, this is MY party too and I have EVERY right to make my voice heard about who will or won't represent me.

      Don't you dare tell me who I can't criticize. That is a position they would welcome on the other side of the aisle.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:28:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  WHY DON"T YOU LIKE HER? (0+ / 0-)

        I don't see Obama as a Dem, I see him as a opportunist, and a pawn of the neocons.

        Back to Hillary-Why don't you like her?

        It was Kos who lost his mind over Dems criticizing Dems, and now he's doing it? I have a problem with that.

        •  I didn't say I didn't like HER, I said (0+ / 0-)

          I don't like her POSITIONS.

          Let's see, Hillary is the one who had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admitting that there were problems in Iraq. And now she won't admit that voting for the AUMF was a mistake in and of itself, regardless of the intelligence.

          The passage of the AUMF still haunts us today. It is what Bush has been using to justify just about everything we've been dealing with, from Guantanamo to the potential action against Iran.

          You think Obama is an opportunist and a pawn of the neocons?

          I think Hillary is a hell of a lot closer to the Neocon positions than Obama.

          Obama opposed the war from the beginning. How is that even remotely a neocon position?

          And now, of all the things to be spending her equity on, why the hell is she spending time attacking Iran, adding credibility to Bush's position?

          THAT is advancing the neocon position.

          Note that no where in here did I call you stupid or deny your right to disagree with me.

          Good day.

          There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

          by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:46:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Problem with Dems. criticizing Dems? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thepdxbikerboy

          Look in the mirror and forget about criticizing Obama as a neocon.  Gee, that's not even credible.

          •  I didn't say Obama is a neocon... (0+ / 0-)

            I said he is being USED by the neocons. HUGH difference. Obama would have to take a position on something to be called something. OH, he is against the war? I don't remember him saying anything about the war until after the fact. He's a empty suit opportunist in my opinion.

            •  Obama has quite the paper trail of opposing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              trinite

              the war BEFORE the war started.

              That you didn't even take the time to find it speaks volumes.

              There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

              by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:19:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks for the link (0+ / 0-)

                I was wrong-the speech is dated 2002-Still think he would make a lousy president

                This reminds me so much of 1974. The country was jerked to the left by reaction to NIXON & CO, and we got Jimmy (I worked on his campaign). He was such as idealist he was rolled by the neocons from beginning to end.

                We need someone who will recognize a neocon when she sees them, and is capable of removing all the neocons from the federal government. I want a neocon killer, and someone who can govern from the middle. I don't see Obama doing that. I just don't get what people see in Obama.  

                •  And I think that Hillary is a barely disguised (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jfm

                  neo-con.

                  I just a having a hard time understanding how you see Obama as being more of a neo-con tool than Hillary.

                  She has time and time again, taken EXACTLY their positions.

                  Well thank you for admitting that "you don't get what people see in Obama."

                  That's an improvement over your previous insults.

                  I REALLY don't get what people see in Hillary. Other than a HUGE war chest.

                  IMO she embodies "Republican Lite."

                  There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                  by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:39:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There may be some truth to that... (0+ / 0-)

                    But for a liberal to win she has to run from the middle. Do you want to win the presidency, or just talk about it. Lamont...he didn't know what he was doing POLITICALLY...so CN get a neocon instead. Had Lamont kept the FAR LEFT WING LIBERALS off the stage, and off TV, when he won the primary, he would probably have won the general. You can poopoo political skill all you want, but that is what wins elections.

                    •  So a liberal needs to not be a liberal so they (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jfm

                      win?

                      How is it that the Republicans have not needed to use that strategy?

                      Actually I do NOT think Hillary is even IN the middle. She is on the right side of the divide. She is far too free-trade for me and far too in lock-step with the Israeli lobby. She also supported a total red herring flag-burning amendment. I could go on.

                      I would never poo poo political skill. But selling out your values is not political skill.

                      I also think that Lamont lost for 2 reasons.

                      1. He took that ridiculous break after winning the primary.
                      1. After the primary he allowed Lieberman to set the tone of the debate.

                      Lamont's ads, his rhetoric, should have ALL been aimed at his Republican opponent. Everytime he mentioned Lieberman's name, he was cementing the election as a choice between Lieberman and Lamont.

                      That choice was a no brainer for Republicans.

                      The only way he could have won at that point was to out-Republican Lieberman.

                      It was Republicans' defection to Lieberman that cost Lamont, not the defection of Democrats.

                      Gotta go, I've enjoyed our conversation.

                      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:42:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A person who wants to win... (0+ / 0-)

                        can't be a neocon and can't be a liberal. The country wants to be governed from the middle.

                        •  Well you don't understand neocon if you (0+ / 0-)

                          think it is the opposite of liberal. Neocon does not mean extreme conservative. It means new conservative and in many respects, neocons are liberal. They typically are liberal when it comes to many social issues.

                          Many neocons are former Democtrats. They are essentially former liberals who want to promote democracy at the end of a gun.

                          Anyway.

                          Most Americans are in favor of protection of American jobs, higher taxes for the wealthy, corporate accountability, environmental protection, national health care, workers rights, abortion rights, the list goes on and on. Americans, when asked about specific issues, want what liberals want.

                          It's just that Americans have been sold the idea that the conservatives somehow have their best interests in mind and liberals are anti-American elitist snobs.

                          There was a really interesting study that came out shortly before the 2004 election, and it showed that the majority of Americans who were planning on voting for GW, did NOT share his views on many major issues and most importantly, DID NOT KNOW that his opinion was different from theirs. I can't find it, but it sure was fascinating. There was a MUCH higher disconnect between Bush and his voters than there was between Kerry and his voters.

                          They just thought Bush was a nice guy and of course nice guys wouldn't work against your interests.

                          Suckers.

                          There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                          by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:36:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't understand what a neocon is?.... (0+ / 0-)

                            You need to get a grip on something while I pop your rose colored glasses. NIXON was a neocon. Remember Watergate? When Reagan was being sworn in at 12:01 pm on January 20, 1981, and on the TV the split screen showed Reagan on one side and the release of the Iranian hostages AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME! on the other side. Do you think that was a happy accident? That was neocons in action. Do you remember Iran/Contra run out the basement of the White House during Reagan? Those were neocons.

                            When Eisenhower left the White House he said the greatest threat to the USA was the military/industrial complex.

                            NEOCONS WANT WAR AT ALL TIMES SO THEY CAN TRANSFER AS MANY ASSETS (READ TAXPAYER MONEY) AS POSSIBLE TO THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

                            This business about WMD, democracy, ETC ETC ETC is a cover. It doesn't matter what the circumstance or the year or the country. The military industrial complex has to be fed.

                            WHAT DO YOU THINK CHENEY IS? After NIXON he was the biggest neocon ever in terms of power. I think you will find after he is gone that Cheney was running a shadow government on behalf of guess who???

                            Most republicans are like you. They have no idea what a neocon is and have no clue to the fact the neocons have highjacked the Republican Party.

                            Why do you think the MSM reports the "news" as it does? Because the big three are owned by neocons. At least Fox is "out". The neocons are like vampires. The want to do their work in the dark and in secret.  

        •  Opportunists? The Clintons are #1 (0+ / 0-)

          on that list.  They've been on more sides than a weathervane.  I've known them since 1970 when they were bosom buddies of Joe Lieberman, and they demonstrated that attribute again in the Lamont campaign.  Bill came out campaigning strongly for Joe Lieberman in the primary and then said it didn't matter who won the general election because it would be a Democrat.  Hillary made a lame attempt to show that she supported Lamont by sending someone to give advice.  Too bad Ned Lamont is such a great guy, because I would never have accepted "help" from the Hillary camp.  Everyone knew whose side the Clintons were on, their own.  They couldn't really support anyone whose campaign originated with the people who oppose the war in Iraq.  It would make Hillary look bad.  Maybe the Clinton's will be caught in their own triangulations and bootlicking of the Bushes.  I guess Bill is going to be the chief bootlicker while Hillary tries to win over Democrats who oppose the war.  Sorry, it's not going to happen for her.  They're not fooling anyone.

      •  I was careful to say it's my opinion. (0+ / 0-)
  •  These posts seem to strengthen the Greens (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bten, cpresley

    more than they weaken the Republicans. How about someday you do a post about how many ways Clinton (or any other candidates) meets our ideological and political views? I think we'll find that they are in sink with us far more than the constant diatirbes you create and support.

    •  Yes, of course (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      Not sure if the point needs repeating.  Maybe so:

      This Blog and Nader are of one mind on this topic.

      •  I think I'm gonna need to repeat this a million (0+ / 0-)

        times. I actually wish I was getting paid. There are other things I could be doing right now.

        •  I just keep reminding myself (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cpresley

          While I'm sure there's a group here being reflected, there's only about 300 people here tops responding to the bait.  This dialog is getting tired.  Eventually the guy asking that same old question over and over again at Clinton rallies will start getting boo'd.  And then bloggers will say there's no free speach at Clinton's Events.

          If the blogger wakes up one morning and finds he has done nothing but inspire a group of people to vote for Hagel, the blogger will probably have a set of built in excuses, anyway.  Just like Nader.

          There's nothing one can do.

    •  Pointing Out (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      leonard145b, clarquistador

      That certain Democrats voted against the majority of their own Party and with the Republicans in favor of the IWR/AUMF does not aid the cause of the Greens.  It is absolutely necessary to hold the Democratic Party and its "leaders" accountable to prevent aiding the cause of the Greens.

      IMO, you're letting your advocacy of HRC cloud your thinking.  Implying that Kos is making common with the Greens against the Democrats is laughable.

      •  Kos is making more and more of these posts. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thomasrodd, diplomatic

        Clinton isn't the only victim. Edwards was jumped on for the blogger issue. More and more people on this site seem to becoming Green or Republican supporters. Just look at the number of "I will never..." comments. I think his harping on the Democrats few problems is obscuring the Republcians multitude of problems. Nader cannot be a serious threat this year. I can't live through a repeat of the 2000 election. You can't do that to me. Please.

        •  Whipping Into Shape (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vivadissent, jfm

          Ask yourself which is more likely, that Kossacks are closet Greens or Republicans, or tired of a mostly ineffectual Democratic Party?

          Democrats offering a critique of Democratic shittiness does not aid Republicans or Greens.  It aids the Democratic Party.  

          When the primaries are over, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of us will support the nominee.  But in the meantime, our efforts are/should be focussed on electing the best nominee possible.  

        •  I don't see many people... (0+ / 0-)

          saying they won't vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination.

          Most people are opposed to her being the nominee - with very good reasons.  It's that simple.

          Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

          by landrew on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:22:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  In many of the polls included in diaries, at (0+ / 0-)

            least 1/4th of the people claim they will not vote for Clinton in the general.

            •  link, please (0+ / 0-)

              I think you're tilting at windmills with the threat of a Green/Republican invasion of daily kos.  

              There is a vast difference between speaking against Clinton's nomination (even by those overcharged folks who foolishly swear they will burn their own houses down if such a thing should happen) and actually inciting a RepubliGreen revolution.

              The people who make such statements will not dictate the tone of this blog.  That would run contrary to common sense and the whole purpose of this site.  Kos wouldn't tolerate it after the nomination.

              But the threat to boycott Sen. Clinton in the general election is an empty one at this point, anyway.  She is not the nominee.  She may not become the nominee.  And there's an eternity of time before that threat would gain any weight.

  •  Amen (0+ / 0-)

    Hillary, et al., were wrong.  We shouldn't forget that they broke with the majority of their party and voted with Bush and the Republicans on Iraq. Hillary isn't stupid, and there's no way that she looked at the "evidence" and believed it.  And she didn't vote for the war because she represents NY.  IMO, many of them - esp. HRC - put their own "electability" and "strong on defense" bona fides ahead of logic and doing their duty as members of Congress.  

    The ward heelers have been like rabid dogs lately.  Thank you for not allowing them to misremember history and/or cow you into silence on this issue.  It's important.

  •  HAVE WE FORGOTTEN?? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluecayuga

    AND ANOTHER THING---When we went to war 70% of the country was behind Bush and the neocons. Yes, some of us knew we were being rolled, but NOBODY was standing up and saying it. EMPTY SUIT wasn't standing up.

    THIS MAKES ME SO MAD!!! Can you tell?

  •  Hillary's Iraq Problem (0+ / 0-)

    I still respectfully disagree. The whole Iraq invasion was indeed a mistake, but the particular vote by the legislators was dependent on bogus information created by the Bush Adminsistration, (created to appease a president so very adamantly focused on invading Iraq) that made a very good case for invasion. So the vote itself was not a mistake on a legislators part, the mistake was believing the information, and possibly not trying to certify the information given. For a legislator to make an admission to a mistake, considering the loss of appeal and possibly trust with the voters it may cause--I would damn well be sure that it was my mistake that I was ponying up for.

    •  Nope, this does not cut the mustard (4+ / 0-)

      The whole world saw that evidence at the UN and 90%+ of nations at the UN saw right through it. 90%+ of highly educated senators didn't? I don't think so. She knew damn well it was all BS and voted for it anyway out of political expediency.

      This can be forgiven for less profound issues, but starting a war that has so far resulted in the deaths of over half a million, that's not just political expediency, it is criminal. Mass murder is what that vote was. Hillary and all those who voted for it can not be forgiven so easily.

      •  I suspected info was lies, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tipsymcstagger, thepdxbikerboy

        and I am a secretary in Kentucky, so surely the big boys and girls in Washington did too, but the went ahead and voted to give the liers the illegal war they wanted.  I am not in a forgiving mood about that and never will fail to curse them.

      •  Don't know (0+ / 0-)

        Sorry. It just seems too many pepople were on board for this war after viewing the evidence for it to have been such an easy thing to dismiss. I would bet that most of those who voted "no" did so over a lack of trust of Bush, not from an unbiased assesment of the evidence at hand. Now, of course, I wish more had gone with their instincts.

  •  FOX News + Carville = megagasbags. (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

    America's Second Harvest (moral compass: -7.63,-6.21) (world view: 9,1)

    by ezdidit on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:13:00 AM PST

  •  Shame on you Kos. (6+ / 0-)

    You miss-used this quote a week ago:

    As a senator from New York, I lived through 9/11 and am still dealing with the aftereffects.

    and alot of us pointed that out.  Here you miss-use it again and put those of us who dont like in the position of defending her.  Your honesty would be much appreciated.

    •  what was the original context? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tipsymcstagger, environmentalist

      If he misused it, show us the context.  I imagine many people reading this are like me: open to your argument but needing to see the context for myself (and too lazy to go searching for it).

      Think you live in a free country? Try forming a union.

      by exiled texan on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:53:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Origional. (0+ / 0-)

        The origional post was here.  At the time, I said:

        I'm no fan of Hillary but... (10+ / 0-)
        I think you really mis-read this, Kos.
        I dont hear her at all saying what you tell us she is saying.  Hmmmmm......

        Like I said, I am no fan of Hillary, but that is besides the point.  We need to maintain our integrity here.  Kos has the right to tear down Hillary - its his soap box.  But he needs to be honest.  We dont need to be making up things about people we dont like.  We dont need to be putting words in thier mouths.  We all, and Kos especially, need to maintain our integrity.

        •  I looked at the link (0+ / 0-)

          and I still think Kos and Aravosis are right-- she was asked a question about voting for the Iraq War, and she immediately invokes 9/11.  It's associating the 2 in the minds of the listeners, straight out of the Dick Cheney playbook, and Clinton should know better.  It's the very thing we've been railing about for 4 years.

          Think you live in a free country? Try forming a union.

          by exiled texan on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 01:42:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Kos admit a mistake? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, brek

      ha ha ha ha.
      He has recently asserted he isn't taking sides in the nomination.

      Another "mistake"

      Will Kos post "I was wrong; I made a mistake; I AM taking a side: the anti-Hillary side"?

      I wouldn't bet on it.

      Why should he care what a small minority on his blog think about him?... anymore than Hillary should care about a few bloggers?

      Though of course, should Hillary get the nomination (which I doubt in any case), all of this will be grist for the Republican ant-Dem talking points.

  •  Hillary is helping Edwards tremendously (0+ / 0-)

    In a sane world, Edwards should be laughed off the podium for having voted to go to war in Iraq.  But Hillary is giving him cover by being a jackass.  It's sorry that she won't renounce her vote.  It's pathetic that she's tying the vote to 9/11.  But in the end, this WILL doom her candidacy.  So I'm not too worried about it.  Just heart broken  And for the record, Hillary is not from NY.  She didn't lose any more friends or classmates that day than a Senator from North Dakota or Hawaii.  Maybe Schumer could have used this excuse.  

    "The only difference between me and the Surrealists is that I am a Surrealist" S. Dali

    by SpiderStumbled22 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:18:07 AM PST

  •  Call Hillary Clinton and the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silence is Complicity, M Loutre

    21 Republicans up for reelection in 2008:

    Alexander, Lamar (R-TN)
    Allard, Wayne (R-CO)
    Chambliss, Saxby (R-GA)
    Cochran, Thad (R-MS)
    Coleman, Norm (R-MN)
    Collins, Susan M. (R-ME)
    Cornyn, John (R-TX)
    Craig, Larry E. (R-ID)
    Dole, Elizabeth (R-NC)
    Domenici, Pete V. (R-NM)
    Enzi, Michael B. (R-WY)
    Graham, Lindsey (R-SC)
    Hagel, Chuck (R-NE)
    Inhofe, James M. (R-OK)
    McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
    Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
    Sessions, Jeff (R-AL)
    Smith, Gordon H. (R-OR)
    Stevens, Ted (R-AK)
    Sununu, John E. (R-NH)
    Warner, John (R-VA)

    Don't wait, make then accountable for Iraq now.  Contact them about ending the war.

    Get on the map -- tell Congress U.S. troops don't belong in the middle of a civil war.

  •  NYers were likelier to favor the war? Fat chance (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silverbird

    I will bet you anything that the polls of New Yorkers showed more opposition to the war than the nationwide polls did as a whole.

    But then it wasn't New York voters she was thinking about at the time, was it?

    Please visit me at www.billcamarda.com/weblog.htm

    by bcamarda on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:26:04 AM PST

  •  A Question of Leadership - and Courage (5+ / 0-)

    Very simply, this all comes down to a question of leadership. I would imagine, with the exception of then Democrat, Joe Liebermann, nearly every Democrat in Congress was against invading Iraq - at least privately. Unfortunatly, too many of them lacked the courage of their convictions to stand up to Bush and Cheney and the right-wing smear machine. They didn't want to be seen as "soft on terror".  

    Unlike Sen. Feingold and Sen. Wellstone, they couldn't muster the courage to stand up and do the right thing.

    So just exactly what qualities do we look for in our nominee for president?

  •  I'm NOT forgetting it either. (4+ / 0-)

    I don't care if there is no Democrat left standing to oppose Bush, I am not voting for any syncophant who caved the last time.  Hillary leads the pack, imo.  The Democratic Party has more than a year to get ready for this next vote, so they better GET ready!  No more same old lame leaders who dropped the ball when they could have made an important difference, but were too cowardly to risk it.

    •  We can do better than Hillary Clinton in 08 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Silverbird, londubh, clarquistador

      and we will. She flunks on the Iraq war issue, the biggest issue any of us probably will ever face. If she fails on that, it don't hardly matter what she is GOOD for. She's bad for America.

      All Glory unto Bush we yield, Thy Quagmire is our Empire's Shield; Thou make'st our Nation's name adored Like unto that of Mongol Horde.

      by revbludge on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:41:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe we can do better, but she is not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cpresley

        "bad for America" anymore than Kerry would have been.

        •  That ain't sayin' much, because Kerry (0+ / 0-)

          would have been "bad for America" too. I voted for the SOB, but I believed at the time it was necessary to hold Bush accountable for his wrongdoing in invading Iraq. I also feared that if Kerry was elected, he would do what Nixon did about Vietnam when he was elected in 1968 - string out the disengagement from Iraq for an entire term at least, out of fear that he would own the "defeat." And probably destroy the Democratic party in the process. Whoever won in 2004, there were a lot more US soldiers slated to die unnecessarily; however, I thought, on balance, that Kerry would be less likely to fucking escalate. On the score of the Constitutional, legal, and wrongful death issues relevant to Iraq, the options were, to say the least, shitty in 2004.

          All Glory unto Bush we yield, Thy Quagmire is our Empire's Shield; Thou make'st our Nation's name adored Like unto that of Mongol Horde.

          by revbludge on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:51:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And if Hillary is nominated, I forgot to say, (0+ / 0-)

            the options will be shitty again in 2008.

            All Glory unto Bush we yield, Thy Quagmire is our Empire's Shield; Thou make'st our Nation's name adored Like unto that of Mongol Horde.

            by revbludge on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:52:54 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I love the way Markos... (0+ / 0-)

    ...writes.

    I'm not kissing ass for pointers here: I don't know him & there is a less than 1% chance I'll ever meet him, but dude can articulate a point with the precision of a forger of iron.

    Anyway, spot on about Hillary.

    There are a multitude of reasons why this woman is not fit to be president.  The Iraq thing is just sorta the easiest issue to nail her on at this juncture.

    The more she opens her mouth, the more of her "war chest" she'll end up spending trying to John-Kerry her way out of a shitstorm of her own making.

  •  It's really quite simple (0+ / 0-)

    Folks make mistakes.  We're all human.  Admitting that she made a mistake simply makes Hillary human.

    Here's a script:

    "Yes, in fact the vote I cast on the Iraq war was a mistake.  We rushed to war.  Inspections, sanctions and diplomacy were working.  The threats from Sadaam Hussein didn't place the US in imminent danger.  It distracted us from the global efforts against terrorism and our activities in Afganistan.  I shouldn't have voted the way I did.  Period.  I wouldn't do it again.  We make mistakes in politics.  We learn from our mistakes.  I've learned from this mistake and it's made me stronger.  
    If only the Bush Adminstration would admitt this mistake, we could move forward, end the war, improve our foreign policy and have more resources to fight the global war on terror"

    What would be so hard about having Hillary just say that and be done with it.

    She'd make the story go away.  She'd get a lot more of the party faithful (see Kos bloggers and many, many others) to think positively about her again.

    Most importantly she'd stop dragging this issue around with her and she could start really campaigning.

    •  agree with Kos about her fully owning up (0+ / 0-)

      she has pretty much lost the window of opportunity to do so

      Plus, it's bad enough that any Democrat was STUPID enough to vote for this fiasco...and now to keep holding out, for what? Pride? Appearing hawkish? We don't need that kind of selfish posturing. We need an honest leader.

      Remember to call Congress and call often

      by lisastar on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:56:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Amen kos! (0+ / 0-)

    Hil made her bed, know she can lay in it. I'd rather she stay in the Senate and concider this a learning experience on how ignoring your intellectual/scrutinizing liberal base can bite you in the ass and prove you wrong.
    Thanks.

    "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

    by Skid on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:44:43 AM PST

  •  quick, somebody (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silverbird, lisastar

    throw hillary clinton an anchor...

    ...i felt my pants' warmth as my legs became string and my arteries burst into song...

    by itsbenj on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:44:56 AM PST

  •  Irony can kill a political career. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tipsymcstagger

    Clinton votes for the AUMF b/c she wants to be president, but is blocked from becoming president... because of her vote for the AUMF.

    Think you live in a free country? Try forming a union.

    by exiled texan on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:46:24 AM PST

  •  Hillary (0+ / 0-)

    A must read column for every Democrat.

  •  Even though Hillary is not my first choice, (0+ / 0-)

    it doesn't necessarily follow that I would never vote for her.  The thought of a Giuliani or McCain presidency and what it would do to the Supreme Court gives me insomnia.  She's just making it harder for me to remember to vote on that day when I really want to, especially for the first woman president.

    •  Bill turning his back on Lamont didn't help. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lisastar

      And Hillary never had time to come to Ct.  Maybe she should ask Joe Lieberman for help, especially in the primaries.

      •  She sent him money and volunteers. She did (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diplomatic, cpresley

        no less than Obama.

        •  Bill made a huge effort for Joe Lieberman (0+ / 0-)

          in the primary.  Not only was he the star attraction of a huge event in Waterbury, Ct., but his voice was on one of those recorded messages repeatedly and endlessly. Then during the general election he said that it didn't matter who won the  election because it would be a Democrat.  The Clintons were MUCH WORSE than Obama.  I was there.  As for Hillary's "volunteers," I undertand that she sent some of her operatives.  If I had been Lamont, I would not have accepted them.  They were probably spies.

          •  As usual, the Clintons tried to be on both sides. (0+ / 0-)

            But in the end, we all knew whose side they were really on.  They didn't want Joe Lieberman to lose because it would make all the supporters of this stupid war look bad.  Bill Clinton tries hard to be the genius of political triangulation, but in the end, we all know exactly what he's doing.  The Clintons aren't fooling anyone.

  •  Tell Hillary (4+ / 0-)

    The New York City council passed a resolution in 2002 expressing its opposition to the invasion of Iraq. So, the people hit hardest by 9/11 (not Hillary) had opposed it.

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it." -- Abe Lincoln

    by munky on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:57:33 AM PST

  •  Are you ready (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trinite, lisastar

    Here they come again.  It's the Clintonistas.  James Carville, Rahm Emanuel, Paul Begala.  I don't have the stomach for this rerun.  It's a matter of time before we start hearing from Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinski, and Paula Jones.  

  •  Agree to disagree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, tigercourse

    We need to move on. I don't understand why we keep coming back to Hillary and her Iraq vote everyday. People obviously have very strong opinions on this issues, but no one is going to change anyone's mind here. It doesn't serve any real purpose to keep dwelling on it when we can talk about issues that are more important. What happened to discussions on health care, immigration, etc? I propose that we more on.

    •  I will move on (0+ / 0-)

      The moment that she admits that her vote was a mistake.

      Others did NOT make that mistake, or now admit that it was a mistake.

      If those other issues are that important to her, than admitting a mistake seems a small price to pay for getting to talk about them.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:26:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  She just needs to say (0+ / 0-)

    that she made the vote that represented her constiuency.

    Undeniably true, and loyal. She's taking a wise path.

  •  Over 300 million people served and... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dump Terry McAuliffe

    ...all they dish up for President is a Bush or a Clinton?

    I want a new menu.

    Fast Food Nation indeed.

    Forget your stupid theme park! I'm gonna make my own! With hookers! And blackjack! In fact, forget the theme park! --Bender

    by catzilla on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:33:36 PM PST

  •  664 comments and no mention of the 10/02 NIE? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Justus, clarquistador

    The means of destroying Hillary's candidacy is out there in all but plain sight and almost no one is talking about it or using it to completely discredit Hillary.

    I'm talking about the October 2002 NIE, or National Intelligence Estimate, a comprehensive classified document that is made available to congress and the president each year or so, that represents the collective judgements and analyses of the entire US intelligence community (e.g. CIA, FBI, CIA, NSA) on the various current and developing threats facing the US.

    And this particular NIE, despite being rushed to completion in weeks rather than the usual months it took to put together, and then only because senator Bob Graham (D-FL), asked for one when he found out that none had been commissioned even though the vote to authorize Bush to attack Iraq was coming up (which itself is a subject worthy of investigation), while on the whole supportive of the administration's claims that Iraq had and was developing significant quantities of biological, chemical and nuclear WMD (based on, it turns out, faulty and made-up intel), did contain more than enough doubt and dissent that anyone who read it could not possible vote to grant Bush such powers in good faith. And yet they voted for it anyway. Anyone who did so is simply not fit to serve in congress, let alone be president.

    I have three questions for every senator who voted for the war, especially those running for president, and most especially Hillary:

    1 - Why did you not request an NIE when you knew that the Iraq war vote was coming up and saw that none was scheduled to be produced in time for this crucial vote? Did you figure that you already had enough credible intelligence to base your vote on (which if you did makes you unfit to serve in the senate)? Or were hoping that by not having such an NIE to inform you, you'd be able to claim plausible deniability about voting for the war (i.e. if I knew then what I know now)?

    2 - Given that an NIE was nonetheless requested and produced, did you even bother to read it? I have read that of the 535 members of congress who voted on the Iraq war, only a HANDFUL actually bothered to go down to the secure room in congress where it was available for perusal to read it. Were you too busy to read it? Was there something more important for you to do? Were you afraid of what it might contain? Were you again hoping to play dumb and be able to claim plausible deniability (i.e. if I knew then what I know now)?

    3 - Given that the NIE, flawed as it was, still cast serious doubts as to the credibility of the intelligence that claimed that Iraq had and was developing massive and ominous quantities of WMD, why did you nevertheless vote to grant Bush the power to attack Iraq? Why were you so massively remiss in your duty and obligation to protect the public's interest? Were you, perhaps, afraid of the political consequences of not voting for the war?

    We need to ask these questions of the candidates, over and over and over--especially of those who have not renounced their decision to vote for the war. But even those who have renounced it are obliged to answer these questions. They owe it to all of us to do this.

    Because the whole "If I knew then what I know now" line is not just tired, it is complete and utter BULLSHIT, because they DID know then what they know now, because the October 2002 NIE laid it all out. Perhaps not to the extent and with the accuracy that subsequent intelligence has provided, but certainly to a more than sufficient extent to make voting for the war morally and legally untenable. And yet they voted for it anyway.

    I just want to know WHY???

    "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

    by kovie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:35:17 PM PST

    •  Executive Branch War Power Authority (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kovie

      What I want is all Democratic Party Candidates to make a Pledge to the voters of America to never ask Congress to cede the Authority given to them by the Constitution.

      Those are great questions.  And all of them will say they knew full well a counter-argument presented itself to the evidence counterfeited by the Bush Admin.

      But, and this is really more important for Sen. Clinton, of course, but it also applies to Sen. Edwards simply because his apology did not contain the renunciation I just described.

      If people here want to make sure this never happens again (and I know that's not what they want, they want to rip on Sen. Clinton), then the thing to do is not create an Apology Score Card.  But ask the relevant question:

      o  Do you, Sen. Obama, renounce the practice of Congress to cede War Power Authority to the Executive Branch??

      o  Do you, Sen. Edwards, renounce the practice of Congress to cede War Power Authority to the Executive Branch??

      o  Do you, Sen. Clinton, renounce the practice of Congress to cede War Power Authority to the Executive Branch??

      Sen. Clinton will not.  The other two, I'm not so sure either way.  I, for one, would like to know the answer to that question.

      •  This question is essential and urgent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Justus

        and absolutely needs to be asked of and answered by each of them, because it very much applies to the present situation, in which Bush appears determined to do an end run around the War Powers Clause of the constitution and the War Powers Act of 1973 by attcking Iran without congressional authorization or constitutional authority (let alone genuinely legitimate cause).

        I am now convinced that if congress does not legally prevent Bush from attacking Iran by EXPLICITELY declaring that he has no right to do this without its approval, as well as practically prevent him from doing this by cutting off the funds that would allow him to do this, he WILL attack Iran fairly soon.

        The time for saying "Oh, well, he doesn't have the right to do this, but he does have the power to do this, and there's nothing that we can do about it" has to end IMMEDIATELY. This was never acceptable to begin with, but now it's even less so. And congress must absolutely do everything within its power to prevent Bush from doing this. NOW.

        "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

        by kovie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:13:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Re (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diplomatic, tigercourse, Edgar08

      "The means of destroying Hillary's candidacy "

      Is this what this blog is becoming? A way of destroying each other's candidacy in the primary? I'm sick of this.

      •  Yes, if that's what it takes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        clarquistador

        She is not fit to be president, and has proved this time and time again. Are you actually suggesting that fact-based attempts to discredit candidates is not legitimate, and that debate must be limited to weak criticisms? And did you read a fucking word of what I wrote above--and if you did, are still not holding this against her? Do you even know what you're talking about, or are up on these issues? Or are you Joe Klein and David Brook's surrogate here? If you have something substantial to say, then say it, but spare me the "Oh can't we all just be civil crap", because there is NOTHING civil about what Hillary did when she voted for this war. NOTHING.

        "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

        by kovie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:18:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No need to finger point (0+ / 0-)

          The problem with the heated debate here is that that no one is really offering anything new. I, like most people who carefully follow politics, are fully aware of her positions both on Iraq and domestic issues. I never supported the war in the first place, but I understand her stance on the vote and the reality of politics. Frankly it does not bother me much as I personally care more about domestic issues. The majority of people obviously disagree here, which is fine with me. I agree to disagree.

          What is sad is that whenever someone who offers a dissenting voice, he/she is immediately being labeled as a Bush-lite, troll, or "David Brook's surrogate." It's unfortunate that there are people here who are only interested in hearing perspectives that are in agreement with their own. How can we have a civil, constructive debate when this is the case?

          •  Spare me (0+ / 0-)

            The following completely discredits you:

            I never supported the war in the first place, but I understand her stance on the vote and the reality of politics. Frankly it does not bother me much as I personally care more about domestic issues.

            This is another way of not only saying that you're ok with political calculations trumping the lives of US troops and Iraqi civilians, but US interests abroad, but that you are not bothered by and do not care about these matters. If this is what you truly believe, then you do not belong here, period, and have no right to consider yourself a progressive.

            I'm all for having a big tent party, but there are certain hard lines that simply cannot be crossed, and you have explicitely crossed them and and don't seem to have a problem with it. It is simply not possible to have a " civil, constructive debate" with someone who implicitely endorses the Iraq war because it's not what you care most about.

            Your words ring hollow, and you show every sign of being a Brooks or Klein clone, for attempting to minimize the importance of her vote and this war and for disengenuously hiding behind the transparently dishonest "everyone's entitled to their opinion" talking point, when in the same breath you criticize others' attempt to criticize you.

            "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

            by kovie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:35:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I should also add (0+ / 0-)

            this this is pretty much out of the Luntzian/Ailes playbook used to portray the attempt to oppose legitimate, fact-based, substantial and well-argued positions with ones that are clearly not as "fair and balanced":

            It's unfortunate that there are people here who are only interested in hearing perspectives that are in agreement with their own. How can we have a civil, constructive debate when this is the case?

            As opposed to the several very subsantial and well-grounded positions that people have offered to discredit Hillary's vote for the war, let alone the war itself--which I believe that I provided in some detail in my original comment above--there are simply no "constructive" positions that can be taken in support of either--and you have certainly not provided any here.

            If you really want a "debate", then you need to live up to your end of it, and not just complain about hardball tactics by the other side.

            "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

            by kovie on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:42:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  "It's the Language, Stupid" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia

    Her vote on the war is good enough reason to oppose Clinton, though I am not certain how I will vote when the time comes.

    But Mark Penn's advice about "mistakes," is solid. Elections are not really about issues so much as they are about the language used to discuss the issues.

    And it is not about one issue or one year. It is about decades of pinning single negative words on an entire party, so that voters reflexively know that what brown is to shit, mistakes are to Republicans.

  •  Hillary Clinton's problem... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Justus, clarquistador

    Senator Clinton has been annointed as the Democratic Candidate by the Beltway 500. Unfortunately for Clinton the people who are promoting her have very little credibility with Progressive Democrats. Look at some of the recent polls of Netroots readers.

  •  It doesn't look good for us (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    munky

    HRC is just building support, it seems.  I talk to lots of people who support her without even know who Obama is.  They just say, well Bill was good, so let's go back to him.  It's a total lack of imagination.

    This reminds me of Dubya in 1999, when just about every one of his opponents was MILES ahead of him in intellect, integrity, and values.  But the public picked Dubya, because he reminded them of his father.  Again, no imagination, no foresight, nothing.  

    HRC's cheerleading for the war only seems to bother those of us who followed events closely.  Most people didn't know anything about WMDs, and they got "duped" by Dubya.  So to them, HRC seems like one of their own, like someone they would want to have a beer with.  Again, Americans don't want a president who's more intelligent than they are, or has better judgement.  They want a president who doesn't remind them that they're stupid, selfish, lazy whiners - someone who makes them feel like they're smart and like America is "the greatest, most powerful nation in the entire fucking history of the planet!  WORD!"

    So...we've got a lot of work to do if we want to avoid an HRC presidency, or 2008 disaster.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:49:04 PM PST

  •  I suspect the "inevitability factor" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thepdxbikerboy

    exists more in the minds of the msm and those who see another Clinton presidency as an "entitlement"

    But if her campaign does not "relish" the Q, then perhaps the jr senator from NY ought to be sent packing - back to her day-job - where she can condone for the mistake about which she has been so reticent for so long - perhaps by serving those very NYC constituents about whom whe was so fricking concerned (to hear Carville tell it with a straight face), God knows, by her vote, she has done nothing to alleviate their fears.

    ...it's about integrity, stupid

    by Sybil Liberty on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:08:33 PM PST

  •  It gladdens my heart (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thomasrodd, jfm, clarquistador

    that there is so little support for HRC on DailyKos. She's almost as welcome as Lieberman is here. There is a lesson to be learned here. If kossacks support a Lamont style candidate (Clarke or Obama?) for President then they better make damn sure that the Lieberman style candidate (aka Hillary) is so thoroughly defeated in the primary that they won't consider running as an independent.

    "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed."   —Marvin, The Paranoid Android

    by londubh on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:12:26 PM PST

  •  Disgusted (4+ / 0-)

    I am really getting disgusted with the anti-Clinton vitriol I keep reading on this site.  There are getting to be more anti-Clinton posts than anti-GOP posts.  It makes me wonder if this site really serves any valuable purpose at this point.  Sites like Daily Kos and Mydd were terrific last November, but the mainstream Democratic Party had a lot to do with the success as well.  I don't see what the internecine warfare that is now being promoted on this site is doing to help the Democratic Party.  In fact, more and more, I keep reading anti-Clinton posters here speaking favorably about Nader, who is undoubtedly the third-worst person in America today (behind Bush and Cheney).
    I think that I am supporting Clinton for the nomination, although there is a lot that I like about Obama and my mind is still open.  However, even if you support another candidate, I think that Clinton has many ingredients that will make her a great candidate and a great President, aside from obviously being an historic one.  The incessant bashing of her on this site only benefits the GOP.

  •  Media smearing Edwards and Obama 24-7-365..... (0+ / 0-)

    while Hillary is getting a pass, eventhough she has a lot to answer for.

    That pathetic war-mongering speech she made at AIPAC two weeks ago, was just outright disgusting and was so controversial that it should have been picked up by the press. But it wasn't, whereas Edwards' inconsequential "blogger-gate" is plastered all over FAUX/CNN/MSNBC, while misuse of Obama's name is almost a daily occurrence on the networks. But that's what happens when you play ball with Rupert Murdoch.

    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary's campaign is  indirectly orchestrating the smears against Edwards and Obama.

  •  Hillary is saber rattling re Iran (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thepdxbikerboy

    on the Senate floor right now.  

    Remember to call Congress and call often

    by lisastar on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 02:17:18 PM PST

  •  going to repeat Big Ed's point today (0+ / 0-)

    that Hillary is talking on the floor today about Iran.... her tough position on Iran ... to take the heat off her Iraq vote and pro Iraq speeches..

    •  Well that's about the stupidest thing I've heard (0+ / 0-)

      Why would she think that coming out hawkish on Iran would compensate for her Iraq vote?

      I think we are seeing the first signs of Hillary's campaign having more money than sense.

      I totally agree with Kos. She should have admitted the mistake long ago, and it may very well be too late.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:40:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Am I the only one who is sick and tired of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thepdxbikerboy

    James Carville, the man who sleeps with Republicans?

  •  Looks to me like those who are willing to hold (0+ / 0-)

    their noses and vote for this woman, who obviously was playing a gamem, hoping she would look superbly savvy, should indeed, Bush win this invasion, and therefore win the next presidential electionm, are also putting blinders over their eyes

    and this is supposed to be the freedom of a vote?  Holding one's nose and wasting the precious privelege of the only power we currently hold in this country?  Hold your nose and vote in a person who calculated wrongly and cannot admit she was indeed FOR THE WAR and the invasion and the jkilling and the slaughter--and then distances herself fromn the slaugher,(have you ever seen the pictures from Iraq of the babies with their heads blown offm, and the children with their arms and legs blown off?) by blaming it all on the fluck up of Geiorge Bush?

    eh?  Hold your nose---you are captive to what this war nmongering woman knows is her ace card---you either vote for her or be accused of voting in another Republican

    Sorry--not going to buy it, Should she be the candidate propelled into the top runner (she has amassed millions and millions of dollars to do so), I will write in the candidate of my choice and will not whore out my vote to satisfy this bribe and this shackling of my precious vote. Will not do it.

  •  A little perspective.. (0+ / 0-)

    A few people seem angry/hurt over the genuine sentiments expressed by some visitors at this site. You have to remember that we were demonized four years ago when we expressed opposition to the war. Our patriotism was questioned. And Hillary Clinton stood solidly with the war-mongers. A little historical perspective would be helpful in understanding what people in the Netroots are saying about Hillary Clinton.

  •  Thank you Kos!! (0+ / 0-)

    My many comments up within this thread better explain my views, but suffice it to say that I totally agree with you.

    So many people here seem to be under the illusion that for some reason HRC is entitled to the nomination.

    I tell you who's entitled to what.

    I am entitled to choose my own damn candidate and criticize any of them along the way.

    There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

    by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:54:04 PM PST

  •  She will never get my vote... (0+ / 0-)
    eight years of Big Puppy fucking everything up was enough for me. And he wasn't even fellating Murdoch at the time.

    His attraction for older 'conservative' guys came later in life.

    As for the rest of the AssClown Majorus's in the Senate who call themselves 'Democrats' they don't seem to be doing much about The MeatGrinder...eh?

    The whole stinkin' Money Party lot of 'em gotta go. Starting with my Useless Twosome: Senators DiFi and Boxer.

    The people have spoken: Get the Fuck Out of Iraq!

    The Senate will not listen; so...

    They need to Get the Fuck Out!

    Yeah, I know it will take time but I ask you...

    Have ya got anything more important to do?

    'I'm writing as Nestor since scoop in it's awesome wisdom won't let me use my real screen name: A.Citizen'

    by Nestor Makhnow on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:03:05 PM PST

  •  Neo-Con (?) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thepdxbikerboy

    Am I the only one who has been thinking that maybe Hillary is the choice of the neocons for 2008?  Based on her position on Iran where she is saying no options are off the table, and where she keeps making the connection between taking care of Iran (read bombing them) and Iran's anti-Israel rhetoric, it seems to me that maybe the neocons are going to push for Hillary so they can continue with their war profiteering while at the same time supporting a change in parties which masks their true intentions.  I believe this is why Hillary will be the next president, and this makes me shudder.  I wasn't a huge fan of Bill Clinton but he was a great president, Hillary is a disingenuous, two faced, war monger.  Just because she is supposedly married to Bill Clinton doesn't make her his political equal.  She is smart but just to calculating for my taste.  Also, she doesn't have that sense of empathy that Mr. Bill had.  She comes across as being the phony that she is.  We need a smart leader who will consider options and pursue diplomacy, and start paying attention to domestic/economic issues also.

    •  All of the major Democratic candidate (Edwards, (0+ / 0-)

      Clinton, Obama, Clark, even Gore) have the same rhetoric on Iran. None of them are neocons.

      •  You keep saying that . . . (0+ / 0-)

        . . . and I'm not totally arguing with you, but MY impression is that she is MUCH more hawkish.

        She keeps going out of her way to rattle Iran, much more so than the others. It's almost like she's trying to prove that she can be "tough."

        There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

        by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:46:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is your impression. I have a different (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thepdxbikerboy

          one. And I keep saying it, because it's true.

          •  And I'll open my eyes a bit wider (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tigercourse

            to be open to seeing it, because you mentioned it, but it's just not what I've been noticing.

            There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

            by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:05:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think "open eyes" is all I ask. (0+ / 0-)
              •  Hope that goes both ways. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:18:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I once really disliked Clinton. Then I took the (0+ / 0-)

                  time to look at her record, and the records of many other Democrats and Republicans. I realized that she was far better than I had believed.

                  •  I was once rather undecided about her (0+ / 0-)

                    Then I watched Bush's first state of the union address and when he got up there and started to sell the new version of star wars, the camera caught HRC and Lieberman, seated next to one another, jumping up and clapping as hard as their little hands would let them. The first SOTU address of a controversially "elected" president and she couldn't even temper her enthusiasm for a totally unproven, costly, and as 9/11 would soon prove, ineffective system. It disgusted me.

                    I've paid close attention to Hillary ever since and she has done nothing that leads me to believe that she isn't totally committed to the Lieberman world view.

                    She will have to be the last option I have before I will cast a vote for her.

                    There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

                    by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:46:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Not really (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thepdxbikerboy

        I actually don't believe that the other candidates are nearly as pro-Israel as Hillary.  I also recall that just about all of the other candidates either never supported the war, or have renounced their support.  That being said saying you made a mistake while continually voting to fund the war is a hypocritical position to me.  I just heard Barbara Lee on the Ed Shultz show (I can't stand him but I just flipped by it and lit on it for a moment while driving home tonight) and she can truly say she never voted for the war and never voted for any funding for the war.  That is as clear a position as you get.

    •  Yup! (0+ / 0-)

      Ditto. Especially the lack of empathy.

      I was just arguing with someone who was suggesting that Obama was more of a neocon tool than Hillary.

      What??

      Hillary is the new neocon presidential hopeful.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:43:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  no primary votes for war supporters (0+ / 0-)

    the iraq war is the reason i started caring about politics at all and the run up to the war was when i started reading dailykos.  

    i can't stomach a candidate that voted for the iraq war.  edwards has admitting his mistakes and i think hes genuine but i still am voting in the primary for someone that was always against the war.

  •  Question... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NYFM, tigercourse

    If Howard Dean was against the war, why did he support Biden-Lugar?  I mean, if you are against the war, why would you support any measure that provides a path to the war?

    Dean has said he supported Biden-Lugar because it required Bush to come back to congress for "permission" before waging war, but that is not true.  Biden-Lugar was the exact same blank check with some fig leaves attached, but it still led to war.  That was its purpose.

    But suppose for a minute that Dean was right, and Biden-Lugar had some hoops for Bush to jump through.  So, why support it at all if you are anti-war?  Why not just refuse to support ANY war resolution?

    Dean was covering his ass just like so many other politicians; just like Mrs. Clinton.  He is no different.  If Mrs. Clinton deserves your scorn, so does Howard Dean.    

    •  Well for ME it is not so much the fact that she (0+ / 0-)

      voted for it. Frankly there are more people than I'd like to admit that voted for it. I'm over that part of it.

      But if you supported it, you damn well better look back and say "you know what? Somewhere I made a mistake."

      The "I" in that is very important to me. To merely blame Bush, as Hillary does, ignores one's own failing, one's own responsibility to get it right.

      That she refuses to admit that there was a failure on her part is in and of itself a failure that is less easily forgiven.

      We all approached the war issue with our own moral and intellectual toolboxes. We used what tools we had.

      There were those of us who, due to sufficient skepticism or some other principal, found fault with the run-up to war. We did NOT support it.

      What I ask is that those who supported it, look in their toolbox and admit that they came up short. What tools did you not have? What tool did you have that you did not use?

      By admitting that they failed, those who voted for the war take a very crucial step toward NOT making the same mistake again.

      I look at Hillary and her saber rattling right now and I'm not at all convinced that she isn't ready to sign onto war all over again.

      There is no avant-garde. There are only people who are a little late. - Edgar Varese

      by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:32:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you make my point (0+ / 0-)

        You rail against Mrs. Clinton, but you make no mention of Howard Dean, who also supported a war resolution.

        Why do you not demand that Dean admit he made a mistake?  Why are you not rummaging through his "toolbox?"

        Howard Dean covered his as as cravenly as any of them, and you guys give him a complete pass.  That is what gives the lefty blogs a bad name: a complete lack of objectivity or intellectual honesty.

  •  No she didn't (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fairleft

    These Democrats didn't just enable Bush's war, they sat by and let the Right Wing smear machine attack those of us who waged our lonely battles to prevent this disaster from happening.

    Here's what she said when she voted on the authorization.

    I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

  •  Jim Robinson of Free Republic hated Dubya too (0+ / 0-)

    Early on in the election cycle of 2000, the founder of Free Republic hated Dubya.

    Then Dubya went on to win the primaries, using some pretty unsavory tactics in the process.

    And Jim Robinson turned into a Dubya cheerleader. The party line on FR was, any Republican is better than any Democratic. Even Dubya, who they once hated.

    Will dailykos go the same route vis a vis Hillary if she wins the nomination?

    Disclaimer: I used to be a partisan Republican and frequent poster on FR.

  •  gee kos, if I didn't know any better, (4+ / 0-)

    I'd say you don't like Hillary. I certainly don't like Carville, I think he is a moron.

    I'll say it again. Hillary is not my first, second, third, fourth or even fifth choice. I'm still hopeful Al Gore jumps in.

    But if Hillary wins the nomination, by golly I will be volunteering to work in her campaign.

    The rhetoric gets a little bit thick at times. You might want to think about what might come back to roost, let's say 16 months or so down the road.

    Can we survive furious George's 'Quest For Stupidity'TM?

    by shpilk on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 07:58:45 PM PST

  •  Stubborness is a well shared trait. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NYFM

       After New York was bombed on 9-11 , the atmosphere was a traumatic event.  Hillary being a senator from New York, would have committed political suicide not to vote for the resolution. Rationality is always a ego feeding proposition in 20/20 hindsight.  Politics is usually not rational in the sense of a scientific hypothesis, but is deeply emotional and subjective.  I continue to read diaries with the obsessive campaign  " lets tar and feather Hillary."   I swear that it smacks of insipid stubbornness bordering on blatant arrogance and self righteousness.  Oh, how heady the winds as bloggers  approach the stratosphere of influence.  The first thing to do, is attack, disparage, and flaunt our superior political savy at the expense of the larger good. We will all be operating under the standard of Kos time from now on.  Supporters of candidates must now travel the gauntlet of maniacs with spears ready to pounce with the troll button.  Heaven forbid that we should disobey superior logic coming from on high from now on.  The issue that is important but minor in the larger scheme of the political strategy she is following and getting some advice from the master himself Bill, will operate on Hillary time, and ignore the Kos time "decree" and will come to terms with it in her own fucking good time.  The election is an eon away, and there is plenty of wiggle room to come to terms with a strategy that is only an outline in a political arena that is unpredictable even though people here are self deluded into thinking they have all the answers and begins to smell of the myopic perception of authoritarianism.  I come from a family of polticians, and my dad, revealed to me how President Clinton was being attacked by the press and by the Republican party was attacking all democrats across the country.  It is similiar to guilt by association.  When Clinton was attacked without mercy by a wingnut press I felt personally attacked. Being more introspective , and not having a voice in the public debate, I was left to my own devices and psychological techniques to deal with the problem.  In the same manner, when New York was attacked, the country too was traumatized. Some more than others. Some with a hard outer shell, shrugged it off and went about their business. Those with a more sensitive predisposition , like artists, and having very strong empathic natures, suffered with the people of New York, as they do with the soldiers in Iraq.  People with this disposition are usually highly curious, creative, and have x-ray vision when it comes to the foibles of people who like conservatives always need someone to blame as a way of establishing their own credentials of being holier than thou.  As in the physics of quantum mechanics, the laws of probability rules the day, and as of today, Hillary seems to be the odds on favorite.  I guess, Hillary supporters on this site, will just have to endure the abuse that has become the latest flavor of the month.  We have to have our talking points after all, "right."

  •  Daily Kos a smear machine against Hillary? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fairleft

    Maybe

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site