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I don’t know at what point I changed my feelings towards Daily Kos and I am even less able to define exactly the reasons for this happening.

A couple of days ago, Kid Oakland wrote a diary on here and it was beautiful to read. It was elegant and it was thoughtful.

Yet it upset me a little because it reminded me of what great diaries used to consistently hit the recommended list here. Great diaries by some great writers.

They are still around of course and they still get written. Those that I don’t admire are my problem not the diarists. My opinion doesn’t matter. It is what gets a flood of recommends that does.

I change, Daily Kos changes. It is an inevitable process. Who am I to say it is for the better or for the worse?

I do know that if I were to say I found something was offensive I would be accused of being guilty of trying to impose my own values on others. It is not popular to have these sort of personal values and to try and express them. Worse, I might be thought to be trying to deny the right to free speech; that constitutional right to say whatever you feel, whatever its impact on others. It is almost as bad as if I was criticising those who demand the constitutional right to hold guns designed for their specific ability to kill people efficiently.

In any case, the rules on Dkos have not changed that much since I first joined this site. I can’t honestly point out that anything is much different. Perhaps there has been a slight change in the frequency of certain diaries; an envelope enlarged a little bit by each successive shock diary wanting to get a small edge on the shock of the last one.  Even so, I would be hard pushed to objectively show that this has occurred.

I suppose that it is because of my age that I find some things on here that previously I would have called vulgar. I say "previously" because I now feel my perspective will be misunderstood if I use that word. You see "vulgar" can mean "common: being or characteristic of or appropriate to everyday language; "common parlance"; "a vernacular term"; "vernacular speakers"; "the vulgar tongue of the masses" and if this interpretation is made then I would find myself in an immediate class argument. Of course, when I say I find more vulgarity here than I believed I saw before, I mean diaries that I personally find  "untutored and uncouth, objectionable, conspicuously tasteless".

The fallacy of my argument is contained in that word "personally". It is my perception, my criteria for good writing, my perception of what I like to rest my eyes upon when I open up Daily Kos for the first time each day.

No. I have to accept that so much is to do with me rather than with any shared experience with others of what Daily Kos seems to be becoming. It is not to my taste to attack political opponents by excessive branding of them as fascists, even though I feel some of their methodology bears more than a passing resemblance. It is not in my nature to try and tear down the awfulness that passes for so many as religious thought by derision and assaulting their beliefs by daring them to object to my language whilst knowing the degree of offence that I would create.

Yeah, I know. Too many years of reading the Guardian and the Independent have led me to believe that the most powerful written arguments are conducted in a different form of political discourse than that used by me in the pub. I still believe in courtesy to others and in respect for opinions derived from the life experiences of other people. It is, after all, an extraordinary sort of impertinence that chooses to insult another for the conclusions that they have struggled to achieve, however much one disagrees with them. I try and oppose anything with which I don’t agree by using a language that reflects some sort of humility in my own arguments. It is a humility that is not intended to be subservient, merely one that avoids the sort of arrogance that denies equality between you and your opponent.

Yet, I repeat, my opinion doesn’t matter at all. It is what gets the most recommends that counts and there is no doubting that strong, powerful blows strike harder in attention getting than quiet, reflective discussion.

It is all to do with marketing and selling. Our readership are consumers and need entertainment like anyone else. That is where a strongly stated "fuck", an allusion to Goebbels and mentioning the anatomy of Jesus comes in so handy.

I suppose that those who don’t do this are sadder than the sad car salesman who tells his potential customers that the Dodge in his showroom may have a suspect suspension.  Eventually he will close down his car lot and drift away. A sucker who whinges about the lack of honesty in the big dealer across the road, who stands laughing as he watches his competitor fail whilst feeling the wad of dollars and customer recommends in his back pocket.

As I said, I don’t know when I felt I, or Daily Kos, had changed. I’m sorry if certain of our readers and contributors drift away, though. Of course, there will be ten waiting to take their place who know how to shock and jerk the strings of the community in the way that those who have gone never understood. No matter. The site is not about them. Or me. My opinion doesn’t matter once I decide to recommend or not recommend a diary.

The same happened when I voted against our nice Mr Blair coming into power. From then on, my opinion didn’t matter.

Originally posted to Welshman on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:26 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Ha! (283+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Malacandra, Deep Dark, arlam, Canadian Reader, JekyllnHyde, Alumbrados, cdreid, keirdubois, CJB, Snapper, pb, miriam, tankej, nolalily, Savage, TealVeal, roonie, Hell Upside Down, Trendar, areucrazy, barnowl, TaraIst, Rolfyboy6, Pandora, pHunbalanced, Powered Grace, sarac, melvynny, RunawayRose, RickWn, surfbird007, Robespierrette, scrutinizer, Coldblue Steele, Nonpartisan, wu ming, kpardue, shycat, DCDemocrat, rhubarb, GayHillbilly, jdld, rightiswrong, ThirstyGator, zenbowl, frisco, zic, bumblebums, zeroooo, foonk, Caneel, LibertyGuard, shermanesq, mrsdbrown1, joyous, bronte17, conchita, Athenian, Wee Mama, leveymg, elveta, undercovercalico, brown girl in the ring, RabidNation, pdt, molls, scamp, retrograde, jenifera, JJG Miami Shores, roses, javelina, standingup, thingamabob, matt2525, fumie, wonmug, enough already, bewert, David Boyle, revsue, lulusbackintown, NMRed, cathy b, psnyder, oldjohnbrown, missliberties, Eddie in ME, casperr, blueteam, Kaya, TiaRachel, kevin22262, kj in missouri, texasmom, Dale Read, Penny Century, mcfly, dnn, Eddie Haskell, Liberaljentaps, 4jkb4ia, walkshills, DMiller, DelicateMonster, FlyingToaster, ybruti, kfred, WisVoter, SanDiegoDem, gavodotcom, American in Kathmandu, Marc in KS, frostyinPA, vcmvo2, davidincleveland, joanneleon, Bluesee, marina, i love san fran, Elise, baccaruda, greatferm, ek hornbeck, PBen, greasymadness, Philoguy, JoMo DemKim, Melody Townsel, MarCat, clammyc, Simplify, citizenx, sidonie, juliesie, stagemom, JRG, KiaRioGrl79, Turkana, Lepanto, boofdah, Annalize5, Pam from Calif, jorndorff, John DE, Inland, GreyHawk, podster, Kayakbiker, QuickSilver, Joy Busey, illyia, babatunde, ord avg guy, fivefouranonymous, dzhessi, wiscmass, hopefulcanadian, zinger99, Lisa Lockwood, deepsouthdoug, LithiumCola, daddybunny, JanL, Ekaterin, JPete, xanthippe2, melvin, Jim P, maryru, axman, Uthaclena, occams hatchet, Shirley P, pico, Shirl In Idaho, Jennifer Clare, Major Danby, trashablanca, gwilson, BachFan, Nightprowlkitty, BobzCat, highfive, Milly Watt, vigilant meerkat, BlueInARedState, hungrycoyote, Malachite, ActivistGuy, Gorette, Mass Southpaw, buhdydharma, Sagittarius, dougymi, deha, Magnifico, Esjaydee, MTmofo, aphra behn, chainsaw mary, Marcus Tullius, kck, greenearth, Hobbitfoot, Skeptical Spectacle, Crashing Vor, justalittlebitcrazy, FireCrow, FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, PapaChach, BalkanID, plf515, CTLiberal, Preston S, nowheredesign, Demena, Unitary Moonbat, llbear, thenekkidtruth, vox humana, Persiflage, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, sarayakat, va dare, Downtowner, bstotts, Friend of the court, slksfca, kml, mariachi mama, Quicklund, eastmt, old wobbly, J Royce, Boreal Ecologist, Dave the Rave, fisheye, ibonewits, dotsright, Eric Cartman, Cronesense, drmah, Kathie McCrimmon, moodyinsavannah, Castine, gloriana, FishOutofWater, martucio, profmom, java4every1, drchelo, holder, jayden, Heyroot, boxer babe, FOS, jhop7, Rumarhazzit, slowheels, madgranny, Zydekos, willb48, rmonroe, Red no more, MKinTN, skymutt, rogerdaddy, sima, JeffW, gfv6800, LightningMan, NotGeorgeWill, Chacounne, Kronos Blue, wayoutinthestix, I, mamamedusa, xicara, Diaries, Wes Opinion, alasmoses, jmarx

    I can't think of a diary less likely to succeed than this one.

    But honest, I do think some diaries have faulty suspensions, although their chrome does shine brightly.

    Just my honest opinion, that's all.

    •  Change is inevitable (22+ / 0-)

      Let's face it, dailykos is first and foremost a business (Kos Media, LLC) in the business of political communication.  Like any other sector of industry, there is a wheel of marketing.  A niche product expands to become a mass-market commercial product, in so doing, it leaves behind its original niche.  But other providers come forward to fill the niche.  I remember the first time I saw Ben & Jerry's outside Vermont, it was rather a shock.  Now it's a subsidiary of a global consumer products giant, so it goes.  No reason dailykos should be any different, market forces are what they are.

    •  I was disappointed here this morning (6+ / 0-)

      because, as my eyes quickly scanned the recent diaries list, a diary with "welshing" in the title led me to think "Great! Another welshman diary" until I took a second glance. (The title was later changed.)

      Which has nothing to do with your diary, but thought I'd mention it in passing.

      Tipped and recced.

    •  Just to bring up a somewhat (8+ / 0-)

      philosophical point. You know that you are implicitly bringing up the same argument Ortega y Gasset used in the Revolt of the Masses?

      Impeach them all, let God sort 'em out.
      DelicateMonster.com

      by DelicateMonster on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:05:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rolls Royce (44+ / 0-)

      The best thing to come out of that diary was this diary!

      Rebuke without condescion or self -importance and a classic for the ages in making a point about offensiveness without being offensive.

      An argument for self-restraint in the age we live in is always appropriate.

      As to that diary, let me just say my next diary will be titled "You cannot 'debate' religion," lol

    •  Well stated. (16+ / 0-)

      I have been toying with the idea of checking out of here, but I keep hoping we're going through a phase.

      Democrats: Cleaning up Republican messes since 1933.

      by DCDemocrat on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:27:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we are going through a phase (7+ / 0-)

        it's a phase that has been going on since 2004 and became unbearable in 2005. . .I just now began dipping my toe in after an extended absence.  I thought things might be relatively okay, but it is starting to feel pretty much like the "good old days."  Fortunately I know the cure.

        See ya round

        *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

        by Shirl In Idaho on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:14:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          walkshills

          a really odd comment.  Were you just lurking in 2004?

          •  I was (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Welshman

            UID# 28590 or something close to that in 2004 and I participated a lot here as well as contributed some diaries.  I knew a lot of the regulars during those days.  My screen name was "shirlstars" as you will note in my sig line.  You can search my screen name archives for diaries if you want, don't know if they archive comments as well, but it's all there or was the last time I checked.

            I lurked through part of 2003 and then became more active during 2004.

            Something changed big time in late 2004 and into the early part of 2005. . .it was a change I didn't personally care for. . .big deal.  So I left and did my blogging elsewhere.  I figure if a blog feels offensive or not in line with the things that are important to me, there is no need to whine about it or be dramatic, so I just quietly shut the door behind me.

            I am not saying that dkos is not an important place or that the majority of folks here aren't well intended.  Just saying it goes through its times when it seems like Jr High kids run amok.  Just my personal opinion and not worth a penny more than you paid for it, so I know what to do about it.

            Best of luck to all.

            *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

            by Shirl In Idaho on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 05:01:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Kicked the tires, drove around the block. (13+ / 0-)

      This one seems pretty solid, Welshman.

      Or maybe I'm showing my age, too.  Thanks for this one.

      Nanotechnology can take atmospheric CO2 and make diamonds and fresh air.

      by Crashing Vor on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:36:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  oooooh shiny... (4+ / 0-)

      ...cool...where's the candidate poll?

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:03:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wrong twice.....but (30+ / 0-)

      wrong twice:

      1. Your opinion DOES matter

      and

      1. This diary DID succeed.

      I have noticed, over the last week, a flood of diaries that are just OBNOXIOUS.  Not that I am trying to censor anyone....it's kos' site, he can censor or not, as he wishes.

      But....let's see.....we had obnoxiouness about the disabled, and the religious, and the rich.  We've had the usual I/P crap.  And so much more

      I'm no philosopher, but some things seem simple to me:

      1.  People in misery deserve sympathy, not ridicule.
      1.  You don't make yourself taller by putting someone else in a hole
      1.  While I am not religious, it is perfectly clear to anyone who looks that many good people ARE religious.  
      1.  You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

      Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right

      by plf515 on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:07:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you think he'd reconsider (5+ / 0-)

        if we went en mass and begged for the smite this diary button?  I know he's said it's not gonna happen but sweet christ on a pogo stick, is nobody paying attention?

        Economic Left/Right: -7.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

        by DMiller on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:16:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And when... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming, JuliaAnn, splashy, Webster

          your diary is smitten, how will you feel then?

          Rarely, once or twice a month and by consensus of the board says kos and I like it just fine that way.

          •  If I wrote a diary that was so far out of the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ThirstyGator

            mainstream that a significant number of TUs decided it should be hidden, I would be willing to accept that.  With that being said, I'm sort of a middle of the road kind of a gal, except for the whole lesbian mom thing, so take that as you will.

            Nevertheless, I'm also a lawyer, and I'm mindful of the "free speech" (even though it's Kos' blog and there's no free speech here) restriction such a function necessarily impose.

            BTW, didn't know you had a seat on the board.  

            Economic Left/Right: -7.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

            by DMiller on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:50:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't. (0+ / 0-)

              What gave you that impression?

            •  The 2 flaws with that position. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Canadian Reader, walkshills
              1. You are simply substituting the judgement of TUs for that of the board.
              1. You're ignoring the fact that a significant number of Regular Users have decided that it is worthy of the rec list.  Again you're substituting your judgement for their's.
              •  Couple of responses (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                walkshills

                First, the "troll rating" flaw is a flaw that's already in place in the current scoop system in the form of the whole troll ratings system.  It, obviously, would have to be expanded greatly to be workable for a "smite this diary" button, but it could be workable.

                Second, I don't think it would be used very often at all, particularly on diaries, as you assumed, that had reached the recommended list.  For example, as with the chocolate Jesus diary of today, it certainly would not have been "smitten" in spite of its controversy, because it had numerous supporters as well as detracters.

                Frankly, I was joking when I made this comment, given the current rash of meta diaries, but I would expect that the illusory "smite this diary" button would be used for diaries that were truly "troll" diaries.  Diaries that would never reach the recommended list and were merely taking up space on the diaries list.  Instead they would be sent to diary purgatory --- the hidden diary list.

                Nevertheless, I think that this is all actually pie in the sky, as Markos has stated that he does not intend to create such a function anytime in the near future, irrespective of what we wish.

                Economic Left/Right: -7.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

                by DMiller on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:24:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And you see... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wu ming, walkshills, DMiller

                  I think it would be abused just as thoroughly as Troll Rating and tags.

                  Think I/P but bigger, badder, and all over the site.

                  I like the current system where cooler heads with more information that I have prevail.  I think that justice should not be democratized.  If you see something totally horrible- email.  I have and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

                  Oh well, I was wrong.

                  See, I'm not afraid to admit it.

                  •  I missed where you were wrong (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck

                    I do agree that the TRing etc. does get out of hand, which is why I think any diary policing would have to be an entirely different equation.  It would have to take a certain percentage of overall TUs who were logged on at the time to agree that the diary wasn't acceptable.

                    The problem I predict is that we have a(nother) really pivotal presidental election coming up and we'll have 150K users by that time.  How many admins will DKos have to support the site?  How much self policing can the site do with 5 TRs a day?  The burden will be unsustainable. (In my humble opinion as an executive of a fairly large company.)

                    Economic Left/Right: -7.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

                    by DMiller on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:38:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I turned someone in. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DMiller

                      First diary.  Soft core porn with suggestions of statutory rape, pro-Lieberman, clearly designed to inflame.

                      They still post.  I was wrong.

                      I think you and I agree on many things.  I have some ideas about dealing with that situation, but it's really a diary not a comment.

                      I'm pretty sure there's no TDS/TCR this week and I might publish some.  I hope you'll drop by.

            •  see below (0+ / 0-)

              by consensus of the board says kos and I  . . .

              Just following your lead.

              Economic Left/Right: -7.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

              by DMiller on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:10:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  when acceptable opinions are constrained (5+ / 0-)

              by whether a sizeable chunk of a given community will wnt to silence it, meaningfu discussion either goes underground with subtle analogy, or else dies, and what is left is a worthless and timid patting of oneself on the back.

              the smite button would finish this site.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:52:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You'll get little help from me (4+ / 0-)

              during the odd days when I have TU status, its all I can do to smite the occasional asshat comment.

              And when I see the Jesus diaries on the rec list, both of them, my immediate reaction is, to ignore them.

              I can guess from the title what kind of flame war is going on underneath and, as both an atheist and one who prefers to unload his brimstone where it might matter, I just steer clear of much ado about nothing.

              Does it damage kos to have them on the home page? I doubt it. The big tent includes all sorts, some of them very dodgy, but to deny their existence? Nah, I want to know where they are, and be able to find out what they are saying, or even thinking.

              Its the republicans who want to brush their dirt under the rug; and its not working out too well for them.

              The Number of the Beast 72-25

              by Deep Dark on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:09:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  the way I feel if my comment is smitten. nt (0+ / 0-)

            It's time for a president to to ask Americans to be patriotic about something other than war -- John Edwards

            by ThirstyGator on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:44:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't want that button (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Canadian Reader, sima

          You know what?  No one forced you to read Cenk's diary.  The title made it fairly obvious that it would piss off religious people.  The first line made it even more obvious.

          I don't think Cenk should have posted it.  But I think it would be worse to allow people to smite it.

          Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right

          by plf515 on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 04:27:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Brilliant! n/t (0+ / 0-)
    •  As a man of 40 who has been on the (7+ / 0-)

      receiving end of a media onslaught since I was knee-high to a grasshopper I feel like my recent, half-year involvement in Kos & other "left-leaning" sites has helped me to finally start to break free of the "Ugly American" mold that I feel I was unwittingly formed out of.
      I want to sincerely thank you for being a big part, at least for this moment, of my awakening.
      Lovely words, put together perfectly. Truly a diary worthy of recommendation, tips and praise. Thank You...Peace ;)>

      "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And someone's giving booze to these goddamn things"-Hunter S. Thompson

      by rogerdaddy on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:34:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I feel like DailyKos has shifted under my feet... (9+ / 0-)

      ...and I have only been here less than half a year. I'm seeing a lot of over-the-top, mean-spirited stuff on that rec list, stuff that I don't remember seeing so much even a few months ago; and recently it's gotten to the point where nearly every time I come here, I see something I object to on that rec list, such as the diary you referred to which I felt was disingenuous in addition to being crass.  I'm not talking about stuff I simply disagree with-- I'm talking about stuff that is disrespectful, biased to the point of being dishonest, and/or mean-spirited-- stuff of really very little value in promoting anything close to the Democratic values that I believe in.

      So yeah, I agree-- and I'm not too happy the trend I see around here.  I find myself spending less time here because of it too-- I recently briefly lost my TU status because I've probably cut my time here in about half over the last several weeks. There's a lot of people here I really like, but there's an increasing number of major turn-offs. I really don't know what I can do about it, or whether my opinion really matters either.

      YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

      by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:43:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why do you care... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shaharazade

        what's on the rec list?

        Don't read it.

        Or perhaps you feel that this site somehow represents your identity.  Is your name Markos?  Then get over it.

        •  It reflects on me as a Democrat (10+ / 0-)

          Dailykos is, for better or worse, associated with Democrats.

          The stuff that this community highlights says something about itself, and by extension, Democrats.

          We've had a variation of this conversation before, ek: I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine, but please don't tell me to get over it. If I see something I don't like, I will certainly speak my mind, whether you approve of it or not.

          YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

          by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:02:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok (5+ / 0-)

            "The stuff that this community highlights says something about itself."

            Indeed.

            So are you going to accept what the community says about itself or dictate it by fiat?

            If you see something you don't like, by all means speak out; and if we disagree about this issue, we can still agree about others.

            •  apparently democracy bothers a lot of people (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck, shaharazade

              why should people have the right to choose poorly?

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:53:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Very well (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              vcmvo2, ek hornbeck, Lisa Lockwood

              I don't wish to be an adversary of yours, you seem like a very nice person.

              I can't accept some of what the site is saying about itself (and Democrats), but I don't probably can't do much about it by mentioning it, and meanwhile there's enough about it that I think is worthwhile that I don't want to give up on it. Welshman expressed my views in better words than I probably have.

              YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

              by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:05:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are not at all... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                snakelass, shaharazade

                an adversary of mine, probably next time we meet I shall be specially nice.  We disagree about this and that's ok.  I think that in time, as you see the dancers reherse their steps yet again, you may come to change your mind, but it's really ok if you don't too.

              •  Suggestion (4+ / 0-)

                try substituting "that's not acceptable" with "I don't agree".

                I don't agree with lots that gets said here, but god forbid that I should ever be in a position to accept or reject what other people want to say.

                I can read or not read as I choose, I can argue or ignore as I choose, I can unleash a little venom from time to time and, worst comes to worst, (TU intact at the time) I can troll rate.

                Some of this stuff is beautiful some of it ugly but its all in some measure or another, US. Some of it is inspirational and some of it deadly boring, but its all of it US.

                Dies it present a pockmarked, sometimes smelly, yellow toothed perspective of democracy to the world? Too fucking right mate. You would rather the left looked like Santorum?

                The biped, not the other.

                The Number of the Beast 72-25

                by Deep Dark on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:17:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks n/t (0+ / 0-)

                  The Number of the Beast 72-25

                  by Deep Dark on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:27:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I disagree-- I make a distinction (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Canadian Reader, vcmvo2, Jagger

                  There are those things with which I don't agree; and then there is a small subset of things that I do not accept, things that I condemn, things that I think are unreasonable to agree with.  

                  For instance, in Cenk's diary, I condemn his tactic of taking the words and actions of Bill Donohue and his crowd and craftily working that into his larger arguments against all Christianity and all religion.  I condemn it because it isn't honest, and it isn't fair-- Bill Donohue doesn't speak for most Catholics and Cenk knows this. So I don't simply disagree with it, I don't accept it-- I don't think it's valid, I don't think that anybody should agree with that kind of dishonest argument. And I am confident why he did it-- he wanted to make his point about the UN Resolution palatable to his audience. I would have had no problem if he had taken that issue on in a straightforward manner-- and probably would have more or less agreed with him.

                  YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

                  by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:39:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  percisely why I'm not a democrat (4+ / 0-)

              I'll call myself a fellow traveler until we get the neocons out of office but after that we have to sit down and talk.  

              Democracy requires a well informed electorate and the one we've got right now is so brainwashed and misinformed it's incapable of knowing what's in it's own best interest.

              Librarians are hiding something.

              by VelvetElvis on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:22:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That's a little... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2

          harsh, partly, but I think what I really disagree with is that it suggests that you get to define what are acceptable ways to relate to the site.

          •  I get to define nothing. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wu ming, snakelass, shaharazade

            Relate any way you like.

            I think for myself, nobody represents me except me.  If you happen to agree with me fine, but I refuse to think for you.

            It's really just like The Nation's advertising policy.  By excuding certain opinions as unacceptable, you accept responsibility for those you do publish.

            •  I honestly have no clue (0+ / 0-)

              what you're saying here.  I've read it three times and there's some disconnect there.

              •  Ok. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Canadian Reader, shaharazade, skymutt

                "... what I really disagree with is that it suggests that you get to define what are acceptable ways to relate to the site." was what I was mostly reacting to.

                Harsh?  I've been here 2 years and it's the same complaints and mostly (not skymutt) the same complainers.

                I think you guys do a great job with diaries that should disappear and I think that if TUs were given that ability the site would run wild in flame wars that would make us justifiably wish for the good old days.

                Moreover I think 98% of the motivation for this kind of complaining is vanity.  Why didn't my diary make the rec list.

                Boo hoo.

                Write better and build your audience, or are we living in Harrison Bergeron land?

                •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ek hornbeck

                  Moreover I think 98% of the motivation for this kind of complaining is vanity.  Why didn't my diary make the rec list.

                  I can understand why people would think this about me in particular, since I've written more than once about the rec list or rec list diaries. It's probably a fair point to raise. But I assure you that I am thrilled with the amount of attention I have gotten on this site and have pretty much no complaints in that regard.

                  YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

                  by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:23:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  If you disapprove of some, and don't include them (0+ / 0-)

                Then you must approve of everything that is included.  

                It's sort of a liability issue.  Action to prevent harm makes the person liable.  That was the reason this school I worked at didn't use any software to filter their internet.  

                I regard the right to embarrass each other one of the cherished parts of American democracy. -Barney Frank

                by otto on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:24:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, skymutt

        I actually feel like the rec list has improved slightly over the past few weeks - that late november and much of december were something of a low point and that the signal to noise ratio has gotten a little better.  But I also haven't had time to read super carefully lately so I could be missing some things that would leave me with a bad taste.

        •  I guess it depends on what bothers you most... (5+ / 0-)

          To me, the infighting that I saw right after I arrived seemed mostly kind of silly, but I didn't really know the background regarding a lot of the issues.  It didn't bother me so much because it just didn't interest me-- because I didn't know anybody.

          So I don't really have an opinion on that.

          The past few weeks, I've seen the rec list filled with garbage that seems like would have gotten rejected out of hand a couple months ago, much less recommended.  For instance Friday before the Tony Snow thing, there was the diary that accused Tony Snow of having elective surgery in order to avoid tough questions about his involvement in USAGate. Now, in that case, at least some of us managed to point out what a ridiculous theory it was, and the diarist finally partially renounced the claim. Then, come Monday, and the "I don't care about Tony Snow" diary, which was just pure ugliness IMO, and various satellite diaries. If that's the way the majority of the community thinks about its political opponents, then count me out.  I know plenty of Republicans who are better human beings than that.

          Then this anti-religious zealotry. Look-- I'm agnostic and I don't have a dog in this fight, but some of the stuff I've seen recently is intolerant to the extreme of any kind of faith.  I know that everyone here doesn't think that way, but it's a significant and growing percentage to my eyes. I'm tired of it. It's not just Cenk-- if it was, then it wouldn't be a problem for me.

          And then, there is the complete rejection of business as yet another evil boogieman, with no recognition that business is even necessary to modern society.  The one I linked to in my prior comment about the bees bothered me in that I have not seen anything of such poor quality, somthing so biased, something without any evidence, ever get so many recommends.

          And a lot of what I've seen in between hasn't been much better.

          So, I've been pretty turned off.  Maybe it's natural-- I fully admit to being more conservative on the whole than the average DailyKos participant. So maybe it's me. But I feel it's ironic that someone like me, who considers themselves a "Russ Feingold Democrat", feels so out of touch with the majority of a site that professes to be about Democrats.

          YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE PRESIDENT YOU HAVE. You don't go to war with the President you wish you had. --Tim Ryan, D-OH

          by skymutt on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:49:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I guess the way I think about it is, (4+ / 0-)

            there are always these kind of rounds of like 10 diaries about a particular topic - say, Tony Snow - and if it's an interesting topic it seems like a great period of diaries (though by the final couple you're sick of it no matter what, unless they're totally brilliant) and if it's uninteresting it seems like a totally vacuous period.  But of course interesting and uninteresting are very much eye of the beholder things.   And within those 10 diaries there's always a ricochet effect, a diary that goes too far in one direction (being a little sanctimonious about how we're all thinking good thoughts for Tony Snow) and another that overreacts in the opposite direction (fuck Tony Snow). So stuff like that, once you've been around a while, seems very temporary - it always burns itself out in a day or two.

            But maybe I just haven't been reading the rec list closely enough.  I've had a lot of work and haven't been spending as much relaxed looking around time here as usual.  Like I didn't read the bees diary, because I'd read other bee diaries and I didn't figure I needed to read one more.  Sounds like I both was and wasn't missing much.

        •  one mans bad taste... n/t (0+ / 0-)

          "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

          by shaharazade on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 12:02:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  My alternative to the Recommended List (4+ / 0-)

      is not working very well.  But it could.  I’ll explain how it could work in just a minute.  But, first, I’d like to say....

      I, like you, have been somewhat randomly reinforced for my efforts here at dKos lately.  

      But I‘ve been acting  like Skinner’s rats in his operant conditioning labs, continuing to  press buttons , hoping to find an irregular  reinforcement.

      Skinner’s theory is described here

      "With the variable interval schedule, they no longer "pace" themselves, because they can no longer establish a "rhythm" between behavior and reward. Most importantly, these schedules are very resistant to extinction. It makes sense, if you think about it. If you haven’t gotten a reinforce for a while, well, it could just be that you are at a particularly "bad" ratio or interval! Just one more bar press, maybe this’ll be the one!

      My dKos "habit" is far from extinguished.  

      But, here’s what I would like to see happen:  

      If my favorite writers would let me see the diaries they have recommended, I could scan or skip the general recommended list, and head straight to more fertile ground.  I’ve noticed some of you have almost always recommended a dairy before I do.  

      I could see your recommended diaries on your "page"...  but, many (maybe most) of my favorite writers have not "opened" the Recs for public viewing.  

      It’s easy to open.  Go to "My Profile"  then "Display Prefs" then click the "Share recommends"...  and poof...  I could see what you are recommending.

      This would extend you "influence" to others.

    •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

      You've stated so eloquently what I have been thinking for a while.

    •  Two things, maybe more (5+ / 0-)

      Like you, I miss some of the brilliant postings by some great writers of the past, although some of the current crop grab me just as hard in slightly different ways; along with the impact I detect some hugely passionate people here, nyceve and clammyc just to mention 2. Maybe the left has woken up to the need for that passion and the energy that will be needed to see the wider political purpose through; god knows the next phase is going to need plenty of it.

      But in any case I suspect that whatever Kos was at the beginning, it cannot be now; some things just don't scale.

      The context has shifted as well; back when I first found kos, long before I got my cherished 3 digit ID, it was a voice in the wilderness, now a Kos whisper can be heard and have effect around the world. Knowing you really CAN have an effect, as distinct from supporting and encouraging like minded people in their isolation, changes the model, and the people who are attracted, and the way they behave.

      And you, mate, have contributed significantly to that, so to a degree you are reaping a little of what you have sown. BTW, don't stop.

      But I disagree that all that matters is what is recommended; once, when kos was a small, not yet effective, community, getting a diary front paged was an achievement; not any more.

      What matters is the outcome of the diary; if a hastily flung together note can change the way politicians see the world or have to act because they have been sprung or better informed or been buried under emails, then I will take that ahead of any number of well-written diaries, however much I love them.

      The Number of the Beast 72-25

      by Deep Dark on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:59:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your opinion doesn't matter and neither (0+ / 0-)

      does mine.  Yes, dkos has changed.  It will change again.  I miss the dkos I joined, but so what.  Everybody needs to quit whining about dkos and kos. We all have a choice, stay or leave.

      "Often it does seem a pity that Noah and his party did not miss the boat." Mark Twain

      by dkmich on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 04:13:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Welshman - you took the words that were (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, ThirstyGator

      chomping at the bit to come out of my mouth - and they came out humming and gurgling like a sweet little brook rather than a pissing fountain that would have been the choice of a 1100-comment diary!! (mixing a few metaphors there!)

      But I was struck by an astute comment made I think by 'Demena' in another diary - we are all both particle and part of the wave. I just think some of us may and can be particles, on the inner edge or outer edge of the wave dampening the strength of an obnoxious current, and strenghtening the power of a more humanizing one - you probably are one.

      I too debated whether I should put my 2 cents worth of opinion into one of those diaries - but decided not to. Yet I also think the motivation of some of the diarists is merely to get heard above the clamor - which probably comes to your argument, that DK has become too large, like a fish market more than a place where there is a sober exchange of thought - but I think some diaries can still make for sober exchanges - yours for instance!

    •  Noise In A Crowd Is Inevitable (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, Welshman, snakelass

      You have to expect that as the user base grows. You
      don't have to like it, and as we see, you can point it out.

      That said, I can sympathize with you more in my
      job. I have 24 years of service as a traffic engineer
      with the City of Chicago. My current supervisor, who
      simply qualified for his job despite having the
      lowest seniority by simply saying yes to stepping up,
      will ask my opinion (and the opinions of the other
      two engineers), then go off a do something else. One
      of the engineers has simply stopped replying to his
      requests, the other two (myself included) are just
      teetering on taciturnity. I have been reduced to
      functioning as a highly-paid draftsman, churning
      out timing schedules for traffic signals.

      No, I don't like it, either. And it's the result
      of several years of change, including three moves
      and two reorganizations. What to do?

      Persevere. And maybe leave?

      In the case of my job, both. I will probably resign
      next year when my wife retires, unless a rumored
      early retirement plan materializes. In the case of
      dKos, the answer isn't so clear.

      I'd say, though, you should persevere.

    •  Author: Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat, Welshman

      wrote that diary.

      Yet, I repeat, my opinion doesn’t matter at all. It is what gets the most recommends that counts and there is no doubting that strong, powerful blows strike harder in attention getting than quiet, reflective discussion.

      It is all to do with marketing and selling. Our readership are consumers and need entertainment like anyone else. That is where a strongly stated "fuck", an allusion to Goebbels and mentioning the anatomy of Jesus comes in so handy.

      Exactly true, Welshman. As it turns out the author of that diary, Cent Uygur is a member of The Young Turks which is a News, commentary and liberal politics program aired on Air America Radio.

      His Bio appears here at Huffinton Post

      Now I think I understand why that diary was given a pass by Admin...He's one of their own.

      I am saddened by the devolution of American language and culture. I am saddened at the easy acceptance of the provocative and sensational as being acceptable discourse here.

      Certainly had any lesser light attempted to post such a diary, they would have been quickly set upon by the troll brigade. It's all about recos ya know.
      It's just business. The American way.

  •  When Did Opinions (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dianem, TiaRachel, Bluesee, ActivistGuy

    become more important than actions?

    is that all we are doing here-- expressing opinions eloquently? if that's the case, then yes, I can see why people drift away and lose interest.

    we're not accomplishing much here.

    "The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me." President Bush - Animal House

    by Superpole on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:25:27 PM PDT

  •  OK (24+ / 0-)

    So your opinion doesn't matter.  I still like your writing.  And after I hit the recommend button on this diary, my opinion won't matter either.

    Those whose opinion doesn't matter. It's a big club.

  •  we share opinions on this (27+ / 0-)

    so, Mr Welshman, you opinion does matter - to me.

    Perhaps your eloquent writing is lost on some, but your excellent work does not go unnoticed. We cannot give up on classical music because pop music produces stars like Brittney Spears. We must let pop be.

    BI hope this place doesn't end up being the blog equivalent of a Brittney Spears fan club. For a few minutes today I feared that was the case.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:29:57 PM PDT

  •  Opinions are like.... (5+ / 0-)

    ...well, you know.  Everyone has one, and they all stink.

    We have opinions about all sorts of things. Some of them important, some not.  If we care, we can try to convince others of the rightness of our opinion.

    At the same time, the key is convincing people to take actions at certain points.

    There is one other point.

    You say

    I do know that if I were to say I found something was offensive I would be accused of being guilty of trying to impose my own values on others. It is not popular to have these sort of personal values and to try and express them. Worse, I might be thought to be trying to deny the right to free speech; that constitutional right to say whatever you feel, whatever its impact on others. It is almost as bad as if I was criticising those who demand the constitutional right to hold guns designed for their specific ability to kill people efficiently.

    Well, that's their opinion.  Convince them that they are wrong.  

  •  I only have half your experience... (24+ / 0-)

    so perhaps I missed this 'golden age' whereof you speak, but in my personal experience it's the same as it ever was.

    Humans have really changed very little since we emerged from Africa.

  •  Keep hope alive! (24+ / 0-)

    as Rev. Jesse Jackson would say.

    I think I understand what you're saying, and I think most of us have experienced what it's like to put a post up on Kos which is ignored for its seeming lack of a catchy title or provocative statements.

    But I also think a lot of us also get tired of what might be called "emoblogging" -- that is, highly emotional and relatively uninformative rants by people who are clearly too frustrated for their own good. (I think we should distinguish emoblogs from the many good blogposts that display righteous indignation but are also somewhat informative and not totally negative in tone.)

    I think DKos is at its best when I'm scouring the Recommended AND Recent Diaries lists for useful bits of intelligence on a complicated political issue that doesn't seem to be getting its due in the MSM. Every time I find that information (almost always substantiated, too) I am reminded of why I want to read all this stuff (not EVERY day, but...).

    Blogging at its best is about moving toward a wider evidence-based culture. That's what keeps me coming back.

    "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by dzhessi on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:46:41 PM PDT

  •  But, unlike harsher rhetoric ... (28+ / 0-)

    ... words that are humbly rendered, and elegantly stated, endure the longest. (Or maybe I'm just a sucker for anyone who uses the word "whilst".)

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

    by highfive on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:49:29 PM PDT

  •  It's not easy... (10+ / 0-)

    to file a complaint about the vulgarity of the masses from anywhere but above, eh?

    Perhaps there's more vulgarity here than before because there's more here than before. If you go into a very large shoe store, a pavillion, say, of shoes, there will be many more fugly shoes than you would find in a little boutique around the corner. Still, you could sigh a slow sigh of disappointment because, really, why can't there be a pavillion of nothing but beauty and speed? Because it's not all beer and skittles, that's why. The important thing is my opinion doesn't matter any more than anyone else's.

  •  I had a wingnut say to me.. (17+ / 0-)

    "why don't you shove your opinion where the sun doesn't shine".

    I replied that it was apparent I had already done that!

    Good diary, thanks!

    "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle

    by java4every1 on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:53:50 PM PDT

  •  Welshman, we are surrounded by vulgarity (13+ / 0-)

    this first decade of the 21st century and, from all appearances, it is a black hole sucking our past redemptions and aspirations with it.

    There is a point in portraying surface vulgarity where tragedy and comedy are very close.
                 --Author: Barbara Stanwyck

    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

    by bronte17 on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 06:54:02 PM PDT

  •  Yes, there is something different here recently. (28+ / 0-)

    And it's not necessarily nice. Sometimes, it feels like there are hordes of self-appointed politically-correct net police galloping through the forests of dKos. Sometimes, it just feels like it's a junior-high popularity spot. And sometimes, it's just devoid of thought that's deeper then the oil sheen on a puddle in the street.

    And sometimes, still, there is sheer genius.

    In the interests of coddling genius, I opt to ignore the rest; rewarding the good behavior with attention.

    •  I think this (9+ / 0-)

      And sometimes, still, there is sheer genius.

      In the interests of coddling genius, I opt to ignore the rest; rewarding the good behavior with attention.

      is how we came by things like, oh, the literary canon.  Sure, there is probably some obscure tenth-century poet whose words would make us weep, but failed to secure notice so are lost to history forever.  On the other hand, a lot of drek has been written and fallen by the way over the millenia.  We retain and are moved by, and moved to change by what was immediately apparent in it's time as "sheer genius."

      Is this not the way with all human communication?  Perhaps even all human effort.

    •  I've been lurking here.. (9+ / 0-)

      ..ever since before the 2004 elections and I have definitely noticed a change in the last few months. I don't know exactly how to put it into words but what you said definitely comes close.

      •  I'm not sure of the "why"... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cosette, dirkster42

        but I agree with the change.  I think that when we took control of Congress, the leash on our "self-righteousness" came off.

        Kind of like rooting for an underdog sports team...there are disagreements and fights, but a kind of "we've got to stick together because they make fun of us!" feeling overall.   Then things changed.   Congressional hearings began.

        We settled back a little and reached for the popcorn--ready to see the corruption of the Administration brought to the light of day--and the person sitting next to us smacks us up the side of the head and yells "I always hated you!"

        WHAT is that about?!!!

        "I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and the Republicans thought it was hell." -- Harry S. Truman

        by revsue on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:29:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  FURY. (0+ / 0-)

      Having been ruled by a fascist dictator, albeit an incompetent one, for seven years, with no serious opposition, and with even the "Democratic" party doing very little to stop the fascists from solidifying their hold on power, people are getting ANGRY.

      Otherwise calm and rational people are beginning to blow their tops.

      This is totally unavoidable.  (Well, it could be avoided by stopping the fascism.)
      If we continue to be unable to stop the fascists by our voices, I don't really want to think about what will happen: but we're mostly Americans, and I expect we'll react just as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did.  They weren't actually known for their politeness.

      -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

      by neroden on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 12:53:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Take (27+ / 0-)

     I find I really look forward to the "rescued diaries" there is always a hidden gem I enjoy. I used go right to the big time reccommended diaries but frankly my humble opinion is that many, thoughful, interesting and concise pieces just get lost in the blah, blah, blah, and some diarists like one today just get on the rec list because there is name recognition that otherwise might have just diasppeared. I don't catagorize all the rec diaries that way.
     I don't diary much myself because usually somebody else can put my random half assed thoughts in a much more articulate way. We are experiencing "growing pains" I think in the end the shock and awe type diaries will have less long term impact than the thoughful ones.

  •  Sound and fury, my friend! (7+ / 0-)

    ...But it's all meaningful.

    Sometimes, people feel that their (whatever) is a license to abuse the Forum for self promotion or self agrandizing reasons. When it happens, I think it's what really irks me and makes me take a break.

    Think I'm ready for a nother occasion.

    Very well said and much appreciated, Welshman.

    PS: Props to georgia10 for her swift judgement.

    I'll catch you in a few days.

    :::::

    "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

    by nowheredesign on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:04:38 PM PDT

  •  I'm coming up on a three year anniversary (10+ / 0-)

    next week: UID 9610

    The advent of the popularity contest began with the implementation of the Recommended Diary feature.

    It changed this site.

  •  Lovely diary. Highly recommended. (18+ / 0-)

    I dunno ... I think it's human nature, as far as so many "popular" but not particularly intelligent diaries getting on the rec list.  And in the case of the diary today, I think it was a reflection of the vast amount of anger folks have had since 2000 -- and especially against the religious right who has so hurt and disenfranchised so many -- not just atheists and agnostics, but gay folks, liberals, you name it.

    So although I am neither moved nor improved by those kinds of diaries, they are very much for the masses, and the rec list is a function of the masses in that way.

    Having said that, rarely does a day go by where I don't find a perfect gem of a diary.  And more often than not there is a great discussion as well, perhaps not hundreds of comments, but enough that I come away from the experience feeling a real fellowship, something I value immensely.

    So that says to me that Daily Kos is indeed a very multifaceted community and perhaps that's not such a bad thing.

    •  More people, more facets (6+ / 0-)

      This is a big community, getting bigger everyday. Something else that's going on is that this is a place where people are finding their voice. It's not an easy process and it's not always pretty. Kinda like listening to someone pick up a violin for the first time and scrape out a tune. You want them to become good so you can't tell them to shut up, and you can't force them to be a virtuoso right away. But even with all the violin scrapers finding their voice, I too usually find something thought provoking or important here every day.

      So, for the community, I highly recommend more patience, and more constructive criticism. People here crave constructive criticism, me thinks. (Now if only Kos would listen to some of it.)

      A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

      by tmo on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:44:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think we're tired. (11+ / 0-)

        I don't know about you, but I'm beat to shit. This past 6.5 years has wrung me out and lately, it's all I can do to read through everything that needs reading.

        Now, mind you - I sat glued to the screen for the Plame hearing and the DoJ hearing but aside from that - I skim.

      •  oddly enough (5+ / 0-)

        it seems to me the opposite is the case, more people, fewer facets.  one of the downsides of the huge growth is the compression of positions and voices into a bigger entity with a more well defined "lowest common denominator" around which the interaction actually takes place.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:15:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think ... (7+ / 0-)

          ... it really depends on what you read.  As far as the recommended diaries go, yeah, I'd say there's a preponderance of fact-lite entries (with many exceptions, tho, as there are some great recommended diaries as well).

          But I've found over and over again from visiting Daily Kos a great deal of clarification on stories I've read in the traditional media, really intelligent analysis I wouldn't find elsewhere when it comes to the political news of the day and so much that comes out of that analysis that transcends just the political.

          •  I wouldn't argue (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MissLaura, Rolfyboy6, Welshman, matt2525

            that the level of intelligent analysis is lessened, just the variety of perspectives. This place offers something that commercial media doesn't, quite clearly.

            But there simply is a marked difference in the range of viewpoints one sees discussed at dKos these days, compared to what was here in its early days when the community itself was decidedly smaller. On the surface, perhaps, that seems counterintuitive, but it isn't really.  You'd think bigger audience, more diversity, (the old "marketplace of ideas" metaphor that the right (and the commercial media)loves to trot out.  But, and there's plenty of sociological and historical explanations for why this isn't the case, the growth in size of the community was almost certain to lead to a reduction of perspectives, unless choices were made to specifically counter that rather inevitable gravitation in that direction.  And other issues and concerns were bigger priorities, so that simply didn't happen, so what you get is a lot of folks interested in a smaller range of stuff, but that stuff they are interested in gets very high viewings and sometimes even comments.      

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:48:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whew! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MissLaura, greeseyparrot

              That's a lot of thought there.

              When Daily Kos was a smaller site (and I was not around then, having joined in September of 2005), there was no doubt much more room for many different perspectives.  For one thing, the smaller number, as well as the less structured format, made it possible for most folks to feel they really knew each other, and thus the dialogue had to have been far different than it is now.

              So sure, I'd agree that a larger number of folks would pretty much lessen the atmosphere that would have to be there in order for the kind of multi-perspective dialogue to which you refer to take place.

              I also think times changed -- this site went from an "underdog" mentality, pretty much the notion of "we've got nothing to lose," to a real winner when it came to helping to make Democrats once again the majority and to finally enter the public discourse in a way which was utterly blocked by the Bush regime.

              And then, of course, there is just the organic changes that happen with any group -- the "golden age" never lasts very long, but it always seems eternal while it is happening.  In that sense, those of you who were around at the beginning are very fortunate individuals, for that opportunity won't come around again here on the tubes.  There may be other wonderful opportunities ahead, but in the sense of this site, you were the real "pioneers."

              •  The other major factor (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MissLaura, rightiswrong

                you hint at as well: the "celebrity journalism" model that has infiltrated the place with the msm attention kos brought as a dem party fundraiser.  the rd's also contribute a bit to that mentality in the community, which gives yet another one of those ironic moments: at the same time the site wants to criticize and offer a strong and plausible alternative to msmedia, it coopts some of the more problematic dimensions of its culture.  

                I have obviously never been a fan of rds, though I do read some of them.  I have to confess I don't find it as useful a tool as many do.  It does help me decide if I'm going to spend any time at dkos on any given day, since I don't read the front page very often, if there's nothing in the rd's that looks interesting then I scroll through the first fifty titles to see if any hidden gems have yet to be "discovered".    

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:15:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sure. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MissLaura, Welshman

                  I agree with your entire first paragraph, but I also think it was inevitable as the site grew to the number we see today.  I think that is more an indication of a sickness in our culture than anything else, and how could the internet be any less subject to that sickness?  And yes, it is very ironic indeed.

                  I recall being very impressed with one particular blogger, Steve Gilliard, I believe, who refused to go to any of the "blogger luncheons" that were arranged between liberal bloggers and politicians.  Again, I'm not absolutely certain of the details, but I believe he made some sort of statement that he didn't want to lose his impartiality.  I very much respected that view.

                  I read the FP posts for information.  I look at the recommended diary list but don't always go first to those diaries.  I spend most of my time looking at the recent diaries and, of course, I have my favorite diarists -- that when I see their names as the author of the diary I will be right there reading it.

                  I don't think Daily Kos is the be all and end all of internet communications.  Just as in one of my passions, science fiction, the "golden age" grew organically into the new wave and so on, changing every decade or so, I also think blogging will change as well and we'll see another new wave of communicating that will make what we have now seem antiquated.

                  Because there'll always be folks who are pioneers and who want to change things.  And the rest of us will always be happy to join in once the bandwagon starts rolling.

            •  i don't think it's size (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Annalize5

              so much as the consequence of SYFPH as site culture. once it weas made clear that certain points of view were not welcome, it became part of the DNAS of the place, self-reproducing and gradually intensifying, as new people came in and were told "these are the expectations," when once the very expectations were an open debate and contested.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:06:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  there is that (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wu ming, Welshman

                i wasn't here as much during that period, so I can't speak with any kind of certainty about it.  I don't mean to dismiss that, the attitude from the top down is a big factor, certainly, but I'm just trying to remember that such a dynamic (increase in size leading to narrowing of viewpoints) is a fairly common one in the social dynamics of communication UNLESS something is done to counter that.  Your point, of course, is that not only was nothing done to counter that (my arguement as well, since it wasn't a priority), but that more than a handful of other things were done to actively encourage that already present inclination.  

                Markos wasn't interested in having a general issue left-leaning site going on.  Progressive issues weren't at the center of his agenda, something else was, and while he's certainly interested in promoting quality discourse and analysis on his site, the narrowing of the focus did contribute to the lessening of the quality of discourse and analysis, because a narrowing of focus will pretty much do that, if left to its own devices.  

                I'm trying to be as impersonal and non-judgemental as possible in my assessments here, not because that's my standard mode of engagement, but because under the circumstances my own assessments and judgements are irrelevant.  So, I'm trying to take myself out of it.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 05:51:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  has the site really grown all that much? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ek hornbeck, Annalize5

          in size, i mean. if you look at the traffic numbers on sitemeter or alexa, we're past the period of rapid growth, it seems to me, and while the UIDs keep increasing, it doesn't account for inactive, banned or less active users.

          i'd say that what we've seen over the years is less the pains of growth, but rather a shift in membership, and a redefinition of site culture.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:02:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe we need to sort them out? (0+ / 0-)

      Why not a recommended "opinion or rant" list, "news or action" list, and "community or meta" list, or something?  When people vote to recommend, it goes to that list.  Either they could vote which list, or force a "tag" when doing the diary?

      "I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and the Republicans thought it was hell." -- Harry S. Truman

      by revsue on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:35:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  civility (8+ / 0-)

    I think civility is still alive, and that there are plenty of people who still care about it.

    In the general discourse in the United States, it has been suffering though.  Driven by car culture and television, and overwork, there's plenty of hostility to go around, and not that many places to express it or remove it.  

    I'm not sure what to do about this, really it will take leadership at all levels.  I just find it troubling, and I especially observe incivility in the way people drive here in Colorado.  

    In the mean time, perhaps there is a question of what type of forum DailyKos provides.  I have just come to expect that people might say anything here, and that speech can sink or swim in the marketplace of ideas.  

    "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." -FDR

    by jbro on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:08:43 PM PDT

    •  LOL! Try driving around Boston! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW

      "I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and the Republicans thought it was hell." -- Harry S. Truman

      by revsue on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:36:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have! I'm from New England! (0+ / 0-)

        In Boston, most of the bad drivers are bad because the roads are crazy and the signage is lousy.  (Oh, thank you for that 6-way intersection!  Oops, the road I thought I was on suddenly turned right without warning!  But I didn't turn, so then where does this road I'm on go?) I think people here in Colorado drive worse!  And there's not any real excuse for it because the roads are mostly well marked and planned.

        "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." -FDR

        by jbro on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:27:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I love the road that crosses over itself... (0+ / 0-)

          and the one that becomes a stairway for a block, then turns back into a road again.

          Had to go into Boston to Copley Square last weekend for the end of an environmental walk, and was reminded of the nightmare all over again.

          Last time I was in Denver was about 3 years ago, but used to spend part of every summer there outside of Bennett at the family homestead.  Looong time ago, when drivers were friendly and would nod hello.  Guess now they flip you off.....

          "I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and the Republicans thought it was hell." -- Harry S. Truman

          by revsue on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:47:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Or Chicago... (0+ / 0-)

        ... and I'm partly to blame.

      •  Boston Drivers will cut you for fun (nt) (0+ / 0-)

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 12:06:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Your opinion matters to me (18+ / 0-)

    Kos has outgrown itself.  I signed on in early 2004, when it was growing fast but still small enough that you could read all the diaries.  I know the names, and I look for them in the comments and diaries.  This is unfair to newcomers, but since the other newcomeers don't know the old names, it all works out in the end.

    I look for your name because your diaries are instructive.  

    I think we just have to go with the flow.  This isn't a perfect medium; the more people who participate, the harder it is to keep the thread straight. I think on the whole that Kos has done pretty well making the transition to a really big institution.  It's not cosy, but it's still good enough to check in on a regular basis.  

    •  exactly. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JuliaAnn, MarketTrustee

      Why is it that people have such a hard time with change? True, change for the better is more desirable, but change is the only sure thing.

      So, how do we manage the change? By being nostalgic for the good old days? Or, by talking to Markos and others about what needs to be done?

      Let's hear some proposals on how to steer this puppy a little better instead of wistfully thinking of glory days gone by.

      How do we make it what we want it to be?

      •  I purpose a SIDEWAY's choice (0+ / 0-)

        not recommend or troll, but let's shunt this sideways.

        I.e. It doesn't seem to belong here though tone or content yet may of the folks here seem to want to engage with it.

        Then we can have a sideways queue that people can go visit if they seek a little "different" in their day

        We are what we think. With our thoughts we make the world.

        by holder on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:06:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  it's not a question of change, per se (0+ / 0-)

        but rather different ways of interacting. change can be good, bad or neutral depending on where you're coming from and where you're going.

        as for making it what we want it to be, i'm pretty sure it's a lost cause. pushing too hard tends to invite a pretty hard backlash. still, there's a lot of good stuff in the margins, which is why i keep coming back.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:08:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I recommend this (17+ / 0-)

    It it because I hate a cheap laugh?  Is it because I pine for the good old days? It it because fetid tripe replaced the old Dkos candyland?  

    No.  It's because Welshman has a point.  It is depressing to think ex-Republican hacks are sometimes more popular than writers here like Kid Oakland or Meteor Blades.  

    That said, I don't believe there's necessarily a conflict.  There's room on Dkos for it all.  Plus, there are plenty of smaller websites (like this one used to be) for different styles to flourish.  Democracy!  

    What liberals fail to recognize is that regime change in Iraq is not some distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. That is a bogus argument. -- Thomas Friedman

    by markymarx on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:12:22 PM PDT

  •  let me show you something (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Far left coast, willb48

    earlier today, ct pulled an april fool's about dkos 4.0 migration to phpbb and away from FPs and mojo.

    i went there and clicked through to a site on that platform. the blog structure displays replies AND views. look. isn't that special? competing for recommend placement and mojo isn't much fun, is it?

    more people could be reading your opinion right now than you can imagine. but you ought to ... imagine ... your opinion matters very much.

    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

    by MarketTrustee on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:12:30 PM PDT

  •  you bastard! (6+ / 0-)

    recommended!

    © 2007 because i needed a homepage, and the world needed another blogger...

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:16:32 PM PDT

  •  By the way -- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    justme

    THIS is emoblogging.

    THIS too.

    "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by dzhessi on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:23:20 PM PDT

  •  The quality of this site went way down (24+ / 0-)

    the minute I joined. Diaries like this one help us keep our perspective.

    There is still some incredible writing on this site but the sheer numbers of users makes it trend towards tabloid.

  •  Yes it does! (4+ / 0-)

    See you dairy got recced!

    You just have to outshout the crazies (you know who you are with your chocolate covered lips).

    But good lord it takes a lot of time to outshout some folks.

     Good on your for writing this. I hear ya. That is why HEADLINES and NAME recognition matter.

    Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

    by missliberties on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:29:24 PM PDT

  •  Beautifully put Welshman. (10+ / 0-)

    I'm not a longtimer around here but still no 'newbie' either, but I feel the difference too, especially the last 3 or 4 months.

    When I found DK and began reading the Rec'd Diaries I felt just like a child in a candy store.
    My God..some of the diarists are freaking brilliant!

    I've sobbed and I've laughed so hard my sides ached after reading some unbelievable diaries and comments.

    Diaries that are so damned good that one has no choice but to take action when called upon to.

    Diaries that are so damned good they inspire one to think differently-to see the other side of the argument.

    It seems to me that many have become a bit thin-skinned around here, reacting MUCH too quickly to some type of insult taken or so totally defensive about EVERYTHING.

    I almost find myself feeling embarassment for some posters who feel a need to reprimand or make demands of other posters to rectify their comments to suit some unwritten rule that I must have missed.
    This is especially so when I see those with UI's over 100,000 explaining the rules to a very low number poster. I actually cringe.

    But lately I just roll my eyes and utter...Whatever.
    Luckily we have that little 'subscribe' button. I can always find something truly worth reading..whether or not it is in the Rec'd list or not.

    •  I see it too (6+ / 0-)

      It seems to me that many have become a bit thin-skinned around here, reacting MUCH too quickly to some type of insult taken or so totally defensive about EVERYTHING.

      I almost find myself feeling embarassment for some posters who feel a need to reprimand or make demands of other posters to rectify their comments to suit some unwritten rule that I must have missed.

      Roaming gangs of "special interests" TR abusers neutering debate trying to force 1000's of different people into their box - Then there's the random flying donuts appearing by 100,000+ noobs because they didn't like a word or perceived some imaginary sleight or can't take the snark.

      I can only put it down to winning the November election, then turning all "Lord of the flies" on each other.

      Avoiding Theocracy at Home and Neo Cons Abroad

      by UniC on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:01:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You could well be right (13+ / 0-)

    that your opinion doesn't matter (neither does mine), but the act of expressing it does still matter, that's why we keep voting, keep going to protests, and on occasion, still post something on dKos.  Even if we don't have a lot of confidence in democracy, our fellow citizens, or even the majority of Kossacks these days, we still maintain enough hope in the basic principle  of democracy and the multiplicity of voices that underlies the whole thing.  That's enough to merit a post every once in a while, even if you aren't only the daily kos top 100. At least those of us who aren't seeking the limelight as much haven't resorted to whacked out mohawks in our titles.

    Besides, I've always been less interested in your opinions and much more interested in your voice, Welshman.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:42:21 PM PDT

  •  IN THE BEGINNING (11+ / 0-)

    Early Kos was populated by people that were underdogs against giant tyrants.  Today's crowd is march larger, and expects to annoint the leader who will lead us out of the present day hell.  With power comes rudeness and blindness--and cabals.

    Now, instead of blasting only the bushies, we bash the dems we don't back.  So many anti- Clinton (or Obama, or Edwards) comments and diaries that it seems O'Reilly himself wrote them.  Then there are the diaries supportive of one of the above which instantly get recommendations from the followers of this hopeful.

    I propose a simple rule, if you have made a choice of candidate, preface your statements with that fact.  Also, in this war, all dems are our friends, don't write something nasty about a person you might find yourself supporting in 2008.

  •  We almost need a way to... (5+ / 0-)

    pick a group of readers we individually respect and each have our own custom Top Recs page... on the basis of that. I would like that a lot. Maybe even in addition to the standard recommended diaries block. Hmm... if only I were Kos for a day.

    I find myself wanting to hear the Welshman's voice while reading the post. I have no idea what that means, except that I tend to associate the accent with posterity and authenticity. Good work here.

    The object of mathematics is the honor of the human spirit. -C. Jacobi

    by Malachite on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:44:49 PM PDT

  •  Try... mob. (4+ / 0-)

    People are pissed off.  Angry.  Offended.  Scared, too.

    Pressure cooker reactions... the lid's coming off and the result isn't mild, or pretty.

    "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

    by ogre on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 07:45:21 PM PDT

  •  Inquiring Cultures Want to Know (4+ / 0-)

    I understand that there was a time when the word "culture" has an entirely different meaning than it does today:  that it referred to an English/Occidental -oriented viewpoint on the civilization of another tribe and the degree to which they resemble the Englishman's definition of culture; i.e., his own.  There was only one "culture", and it was England.  We all were measured by that standard, and it was imposed on the world at the time as the final arbiter of all discussions centred on the maturity of a peoples.  The Brits have been extremely arrogant throughout history!

    They also defined vulgarity, obscenity, and what is and what is not offensive; they wrote the playbook on it, and we Americans adopted most of it, as did much of the European nations.

    This was all to the degradation of Young Turks and Irishmen and certain Scots (or perhaps Welsh, i don't know), who found themselves wanting in the noble Englishman's eyes and were relegated to second fiddle.

    On the other hand, as George Carlin points out, and much to the chagrin of that woman who posted last week (Stop It Now, Please People), the word "retarded" was never accorded more of an insulting demeanor than the word "crippled" or the word "Negro", for that matter; these were taxonomic classifications given by oh, let's just keep blaming the Englishman while we're already here, shall we?

    The point is that this constant lording it over people by a priveleged class gets old.  We cannot see why this attitude has resulted in such a level of frustration that, once the voices are free to speak out, they contain such rancor and ire that we are offended.

    Pearl-clutching is a privilege, I suppose, and a dodge to cover up the real obscenity of imperialism and class-based oppression.

    All of this being said, I disagree with such vulgarity, and those who applaud it would destroy the constructs built (by Englishmen) in the past.  That is, they would challenge you - as I see you have already done the work for them by seemingly discrediting your own opinion as if it were something entirely subjective, like the definition of vulgarity.

    But such attitudes deny us the ability to form communities; are barriers to our communication and shared experiences.  This is perhaps because we do not share experiences.

    Still, people who offend to attract do more harm to our cause than good.  The solution to years of oppression is not retaliation, but such is the human condition that it seems the first resort for most.

    Yes, you could replace "Englishman" with "Catholic" if you like.  As you say, you recognize fascism; don't you recognize the patterns of the imperialist, the colonist?

    If your opinion doesn't matter, no one person's opinion matters.  I don't think that's right; I think that goes in the wrong direction.  I would rather try to explain why the opinions of some matter all too much.  Can't we have nuance, understanding, a seeking out of common ground?  Must we be so bold, decisive, "edgy", that we win a million battles but never engage the enemy we are turly fighting against after all?

    •  Interesting contribution. Thanks (5+ / 0-)

      For the record, the English destroyed the welsh parliament that gave equal property rights to women centuries before any other did, banned our language and tried to destroy our culture.

      Well, no matter. two weeks ago we thrashed them when we met on the rugger field of the Millennium Stadium and we sang our songs in our ancient language  :)

      I don't think the things that I refer to in my diary are owned or defined by the Brits or by class. I found more good old fashioned courtesy in West Virginia three years ago than I could ever show you in Gwynedd today.

      •  Even George Bush Has Got Soul (0+ / 0-)

        No, not owned by them anymore.  But we are all living the paradigm that was established oh, so long ago.  And yes!  To the extent that we are changing, the distribution, if you will, of social arbitrage is reflected in that change.  The Englishman doesn't get to make all the rules anymore; there are a million "cultures"!

        I think rugby and soccer are better than war, violence, and strife, don't you?

        Thanks Welshman; Here's a tip of the glass to good old fashioned courtesy.  Would that it were always earned by Catholics, the English, and even Geo W.

  •  Agreed, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    conchita, boofdah, blueoasis

    although I'm generally more concerned about certain creeping authoritarian attitudes found here and there on Daily Kos, and of course about getting 'good stuff' (IMO) on the Rec List--hence, although I appreciate your contribution (which doesn't matter) here, no rec from me for more meta-wankery (much like how I didn't rec the rest of the meta-wankery clogging up the Rec list) -- for all the good it does.  Cheers!

  •  well, that's the sad of it..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    revsue, Diaries

    It is all to do with marketing and selling. Our readership are consumers and need entertainment like anyone else. That is where a strongly stated "fuck", an allusion to Goebbels and mentioning the anatomy of Jesus comes in so handy.

    We all know that it sells books.  But entertainment...well, broader than entertainment, satisfaction...also comes from the intellectually acute or morally uplifting or humane unity.   If those are lacking, then you've got a base, crass diary.

    It's the proto-fascism.

    by Inland on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:00:27 PM PDT

  •  Good job, Welshman. You know (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Welshman, Caldonia, llbear

    Obama got his butt kicked for discussing civility on this very same site?

  •  Welshman, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, MarketTrustee

    What you preceive as vulgar is a reaction to the baseness of the on the ground reality. When civilization encounters a regime such as this should we be polite? Does that make a dent in the constructed facade we face. This has been allowed to flourish because of timidity. the rules of encounter do not work when you are dealing with pure nasty evil. Sometimes you need to not dance with the devil, but actually confront it in it's varying forms.

    "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

    by shaharazade on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:02:15 PM PDT

    •  Not timid, but not vicious - that is possible (0+ / 0-)

      Unconscionable evils (such as apartheid) have been overturned without resorting to hatred. Direct confrontation without violence is possible.

      We are what we think. With our thoughts we make the world.

      by holder on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:12:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But speaking out against (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        holder

        institutionalized insanity is not hatred. I don't hate religious people I just want to stop their insane belief systems from being a force  that seeks to keep us all hostage.They have wrought centuries of human misery. They have majorley impacted our world with their dogma and have reeked havoc on our true values as brothers in humanity.

        "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

        by shaharazade on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:20:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You might consider it violent (0+ / 0-)

          If someone, upset at your 13 year-old daughers inane teenage intransigence said in front of here that she and her friends can go suck your dogs cock.

          We are what we think. With our thoughts we make the world.

          by holder on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 04:08:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Speaking out is great (0+ / 0-)

          lots of religious leaders - Jesus, Buddha, Martin Luther - also did that. There was plenty of outrage.

          It's deliberately crass, insulting and offensive manner that I object to.

          We are what we think. With our thoughts we make the world.

          by holder on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 04:10:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  whats violent about a chocoate Jesus? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        holder

        or sucking cock for that matter.

        "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

        by shaharazade on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:22:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Pullllleeeeese .. The Guardian (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    neroden

    "Too many years of reading the Guardian and the Independent have led me to believe that the most powerful written arguments are conducted in a different form of political discourse than that used by me in the pub."

    Give a break, I used to post and read The Guardian forums. They were comments every bit as taste as those on here.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:08:10 PM PDT

  •  Well said (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolfyboy6, kpardue, poe

    With success comes the inevitable coarseness of the masses. Myself, I haven't bothered to read any of the Chocolate Jesus diaries. They seem a waste of precious time.

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

    by bewert on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:10:06 PM PDT

  •  Your opinion does matter-thanks-nuff said n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, boofdah

    dress for dinner and be discreet.

    by moodyinsavannah on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:13:44 PM PDT

  •  Don't go away (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia, boofdah

    Don't abandon DailyKos. One of the reasons I keep coming back is to see what you have to say.

    I haven't left Kos, but did kill off the link to another site because I got tired of the predictable and politically suicidal positions it took on just about everything.

    "Vulgar"?  Perfectly good word.  Too many of our diarists think "fuck" in all its varieties adds meaning to their message, when all it reveals is that they have nothing to say.  I agree. Some of the language is tiresome.

  •  Mad Margaret from RUDDIGORE (4+ / 0-)

    If I were not a little mad and generally silly
    I should give you my advice upon the subject, willy-nilly;
    I should show you in a moment how to grapple with the question,
    And you'd really be astonished at the force of my suggestion.
    On the subject I shall write you a most valuable letter,
    Full of excellent suggestions when I feel a little better,
    But at present I'm afraid I am as mad as any hatter,
    So I'll keep 'em to myself, for my opinion doesn't matter!  >>

    I can only imagine how Gilbert would skewer the current political climate since he was the John Stewart AND Stephen Sondheim (at least lyric-wise) of his day.  

    BTW, in the final analysis, Margaret, in the midst of wacky events, is the most sane of all.

    Think of that the next time someone calls you a "liberal moonbat."

  •  Down the tubes, part MCVXXIII (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JuliaAnn, Hillbilly Dem, Diaries

    It goes in waves. Over the past 4 years it's been interesting to see each user's breaking point. Not sure what mine would be. I guess if the horrible grammar didn't scare me off a long time ago, I'll probably be here til the site caves in from its own self-importance.

  •  dKos has changed...it always has (9+ / 0-)

    In a sense, I think it's gotten so big that the kind of diaries that will make the recommended list can be broken down fairly easily:

    • Name recognition: there are some diaries that will always, always make the list simply because of who rights them - regardless of the content.
    • Diaries that make up a long-running series on a given subject. Examples include dengre's series on Abramoff, bonddad's economy pieces (particularly the housing market), nyceve and health care, emptywheel's Plame diaries, etc.
    • Breaking news: as long as the title indicates what is happening, these will always make the list, regardless of who writes it or how much actual analytical content there is.
    • Meta diaries written by certain people about the hot topic of the day and written in a given style: this is a little more hit-and-miss, but some make it, some don't.
    • Well-written personal diaries: these generally have less comments but are generally well-regarded.
    • Lastly, there are the controversial diaries, the responses to them, and the snarky imitators that follow. These tend to encompass just about everything, and I get the feeling that it's these kinds of diaries that you do not appreciate as much...which is understandable. I think that while there is a lot of passion, there can sometimes be a diffusion of the quality of discourse, thus watering down the conversation. It is a shame; as you comment above, you do believe that the pen is mightier than the sword. I don't think that dKos has never necessarily been the 'pen', though. Markos' style has always been abrasive and caustic. And a lot of the old-school writers of times past don't write as much, if at all, anymore. K/O, who you noted above, diaries here once in a blue moon. MB doesn't write as much anymore. The old Armando (the one before his BTD incarnation) who wrote very thoughtfully on legal matters - gone. AGG, who I see made a few comments above - also largely absent.

    The community changes, and if we don't like the changes, then we, too, can move on. But I will admit that sometimes, I ponder the changes and wonder if there can't be something done to move this community back towards common sense, reality-based discourse. A lot of comments are vituperative, a whole lot of sound and wind...signifying little, if anything at all. Epithets are always easier to throw around than anything else.

    "Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore

    by PsiFighter37 on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:26:04 PM PDT

    •  Reflection of our times. (0+ / 0-)

      Not surprisingly, there's palpable anger out there - which when not properly bridled can warp the discourse and render a perfectly valid discussion point all but unrecognizable.

      I think many people are forced to play it so safely these days in most aspects of their lives that they feel emboldened to shock and needlessly antagonize from the relative safety and anonymity of the computer glow at their home base.

      What passes as popular culture these days has been very clear in the message that what shocks and offends is largely what sells best. I think the dKos community has been buying into that notion with greater frequency and zeal of late.

      "War is a poor chisel to carve out tomorrow." - Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Wayneman on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:00:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Recommended most especially for that final ... (0+ / 0-)

      ...paragraph.

    •  Oh, please... (0+ / 0-)

      You say: "Lastly, there are the controversial diaries, the responses to them, and the snarky imitators that follow..."

      Does this mean we will be forced to endure more chocolate Jesus diaries?  I truly don't think I can stand it.  And it's no use saying just don't click on them--because they're argued and reargued for umpteen diaries after the original.

      I've been here awhile and saw Kos change after the '06 election.  The electric voltage that the fight for Democratic survival produced was, for some, addictive.  Now they try to crank up the same jolt.  And there are many more participants who have a very limited tolerance for developing an argument rather than spewing shocking sound bites.            

      To God: Please stop talking to George Bush. Too much is being lost in translation.

      by miriam on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:52:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  See, unlike the critical mass of this thread (0+ / 0-)

      I don't think the problem is epithets or "emotionally charged" language.  I really think its all a product of the limitation of the focus.  If you live by the election cycle, then you are going to die by it too.

      The "campaign model" doesn't translate well into governance model, or even into big picture politics model.  Exhibit 1: the George W. Bush Administrations and Karl Rove. The problem is we focus too much on election and the election industry/the culture of campaiging, which dkos in its newest manifestation has reproduced rather than escaped.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 08:33:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well said. Gentility and civility are (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, Diaries

    always much better in discourse than vulgarity. It's probably an age thing. The twenty-somethings could probably be ID'd by the F word.    

  •  Anti-recommend (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, poe, justalittlebitcrazy

    would be nice. A little thumbs-down to go along with everyone else's thumbs-up.

    (And yes, my imagination considers the possible detriments)

  •  You wrote one of the most memorable... (7+ / 0-)

    ...comments to one of my stories ever (on Abramoff's trip to St. Andrews with Tom Delay, Ralph Reed, Bob Ney et al.)  One of my all time favorites, and it still makes me laugh.

    I cannot believe a diary on golf has been posted...and a brilliant one at that.

    May I, on behalf of my fellow members of the ePluribus Media club thank the Diary Competition Secretary for promoting this one and thank the ePluribus Greens Committee for so excellently having prepared the course on which this diary could appear.

    Naturally, I would also congratulate L of E for his excellent play and were the mojo on this site to be so organised, a net score of 65 should be awarded.

    May I also add that L of E was entirely correct in noting that, of all the wrongs committed by Abramoff and his pals, the wearing of jeans and sneakers on any golf course in the UK, let alone on the sacred ground of St Andrews, is the most unacceptable.

    The man who did so is no gentleman. That is said in my sternest voice, loudly, so the whole club house here can hear it. This should be sufficient for any man so denounced to quietly go to his study and, removing one of his duelling pistols from its case and pressing it to his temple, take the only decent action available in such circumstances.

    Less we think your "politeness" to be to "proper"...

    "Every single Democratic candidate is immeasurably better than what we have in the White House now." - Sen. Joe Biden paraphrased

    by Land of Enchantment on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:39:57 PM PDT

  •  Wasn't going to say anything, Welshman, (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolfyboy6, wu ming, poe, lale, boofdah

    but what the hell. I've always considered you one of the saner voices around here.

    You can get flamed for even mentioning you think there's a little too much froth and spin, too little information or ideas. It's pretty frustrating really. I wonder how many people come here because it is in terms of numbers the main game in town. And regardless of the People magazine tendencies, there are the occasional rubies in the dust.

    There is a certain illusion that something is happening when an offhand comment, or a very thoughtful one for that matter, generates all those comments and recs. It must mean a connection has been made, right? Right?

    On the other hand, there is the alternative of posting elsewhere. How does that work out? Even what I'd consider a relatively serious post, thoughtful even given the author's limitations, sits and gathers dust.

  •  The only two times I got on the reco list (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Abou Ben Adhem, JuliaAnn, poe, boofdah, drmah

    were related to reporting of a news item, that I happened to get to first.

    I'm an avid reader of those diaries that have zero comments, as they scroll down the right hand side of the screen. Many times those diaries continue down the screen still with zero comments, but once in a while  I find compelling stories, perhaps not written well, or written by someone who is not well known here.

    I usually check the recommended list last. Not because it's bad, but because it has become so expected that the surprise element has been taken out of it for me.

    We're all on the road to perfection. Some are further along on the trip, some headed in the wrong direction.

    by shpilk on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:45:39 PM PDT

  •  I read the chocolate Jesus diary... (7+ / 0-)

    ...and felt that Cenk made some excellent observations about the banality of "crimes" that certain extremist sects of both Christianity and Islam aspire to punish. However, the "shock-value" tactics he used to draw attention to his insightful points in effect diminished them, because the presentation was terrible.

    People aren't going to be receptive to hearing what one has to say if they get the feeling that the writer is telling them, indirectly or directly, to go suck a cock (chocolate or otherwise). I'm not religious at all, but I understand that it's a touchy issue and we should be considerate of others' feelings about it.

    Were it that we could all be considerate of one another--atheist, religious, or somewhere in between--so that we could reach some kind of common ground about the things that matter. Helping the poor. Empowering the lower and middle classes. Granting equal rights and human respect to all people, regardless of how or IF they pray, whom they love, or how they vote.

    That is one of the many reasons that Barack Obama appeals to me so much as a Presidential candidate and future President. We as a country so thirst and hunger for intelligent, respectful discourse in our government and political forums; and out of all of the leaders of the candidate pack, both Republican and Democratic, Obama is the only one (with Edwards as a close second) who rises above the mudslinging bullshit that has contributed to cheapening our political discourse, cheapening our government, and worst of all, cheapening our democracy.

    Truth be told, I am NOT one of the crowd who thinks that Cenk's show should be boycotted or he should be kicked off Young Turks or DailyKOS because he had the cajones to post an audacious diary on KOS. He has a right to say his peace, and so does the crowd currently on the anti-Cenk bandwagon to say theirs. I share Welshman's sentiments in that I think we could ALL benefit from treating one another with respect--and that goes for the diaries we write as well as the objections we make to them in comments.

    •  dKos crack (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Annalize5

      Cenk's diary is a perfect example of a valid subject delivered with all the maturity and subtlety of a cattle prod to the proverbial chocolate testicles.

      "War is a poor chisel to carve out tomorrow." - Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Wayneman on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:12:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, it may only be my opinion (0+ / 0-)

    But I truly believe that your opinion matters greatly. At least to me. And, I can say without reservation, to many of us here.

    Who else could compose an ode to vulgarity and the genitalia of the prophets such as this?

    My fervent hope is that the gentle winds presaging what we all earnestly believe is a tremendous sea change in the body politic don't blow away all of our good sense. But much of the sad and honest perspective we gained through years of disenfranchisement and disrespect appears sometimes to be ephemeral.

    Let's not become "Blue State" or "Big Yellow Baseballs", or worse still, "Responsible Democracy" or "Truthline". But it often seems like the ultimate destination of this journey. Let's hope the signs are wrong.

    I suspect I've overstated it--like by a gazillion times!

    -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

    by thingamabob on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 08:50:10 PM PDT

  •  Same as always. Can't criticize religion... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JuliaAnn
    ...or thousands of posters clutch at their pearls and claim offense.

    We agnostics and other associated non-believers are always portrayed as the bad guys. Always. We must stay in the closet and keep our thoughts to ourselves.

  •  Thanks Welshman (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia, vcmvo2

    I've noticed the same thing too.  Despite the supposed "Older Demographic"of Daily Kos, the place seems more sophmoric and down to lower common denominators in thought, analysis, and civility.

    •  do you really think that there's a connection (0+ / 0-)

      between age and juvinility?

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:15:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Heh (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Annalize5

        Considering the fair number of older people I know who fit that oddly constructed question, I can only answer with a definite maybe.

        Maybe they're just regressive, there's a lot of that going around.  I've been watching friends mentally ossify over the last twenty years.  They stop doing anything new or changing their lives or something. Their lives run on oval model train tracks.

        But then, you see it in the young too.  Some of them will never get beyond beer and sports, or cosmetics and consumption.

  •  Agreed Welshman, Civility is best, but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JuliaAnn, rmonroe

    in this mad, mad Bushco world, it is important to be Democratic and allow all expressions of "free speech" to be heard.  We are not going to agree with all opinions, but the right to express a wide spectrum of opiinios is very Kossack.  

    Welshman, your voice is important here to maintain Decorum.  As a old-fashioned grandmother sometimes I'm offened by the course language some users choose, but I don't think the "lanugage police" are necessary here.    It is implicit that the more intellectual the approach to writing a diary or in just responding as I do, the less need there is to chose offensive topics or write in shock-value language.  

  •  Wish I had that ability to describe so succintly. (0+ / 0-)

    You put into words what I would have said.

    Some recommends appear to be based on the title and aggressive monologues.  I hate them with a passion.  There is nothing more awful than entering a diary and seeing hate, a recycled impeach diary or mindless  drivel that brings us all down.

    Well thought constructed diaries are always worth it and deserve a recommend.

  •  People have learned (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah

    to game the system. There are groups who are literally centered around getting their issue or  fav writer on the list or fp'd. The environmental group is a good example. It's sad, and wrong, and corrupt but simply true. This isnt the tight little community it once was.. but more of a national gathering spot. I too miss the old dk.. when we could argue vociferously with kossack friends , and relish their reply. Only to find them with us in the next thread.  

    "All you have to do to qualify for human rights is to be human" An 11yo Girl. Unbossed.com

    by cdreid on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:39:28 PM PDT

  •  You've made the Rec. list (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    So I guess your opinion does matter. Certainly, if you decide to vote, your opinion will matter, too.

  •  I think there are two forces at work (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JuliaAnn, oortdust, shaharazade, rmonroe

    Those who look for the "PC police" under ever rock and those who look for reason to take offense under ever rock.  The groups have grown increasingly antagonistic towards each other.  Look at the arguments following many hidden comment for examples.  

    I personally think it's way past time that the whole "PC" meme be laid out for the tool of oppression that it is and put to bed.

    Another cause for contention is that some feel that the nature of discourse here should be comparable to what is appropriate for the workplace.  Others, particularly those who socialize a lot online, are more inclined to speak as they would hanging out with their friends.  It's a fundamental difference in the perception of the nature of this "space" that we're sharing.  Is it a living room or a boardroom?  

    Librarians are hiding something.

    by VelvetElvis on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:09:02 PM PDT

  •  agreed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    I was skeptical of the effectiveness dem majority becoming a majority in Nov. to overturn an essentially fascist WH.  It looks like NOW the fascists will use vetoes like their going out of style, which vetoes were when the rubberstamp less-than-do-nothing previous congress had power.
    Dems trading this and that (patriot act provisions, etc) to still give the WH fast track trade negotiation authority goes against what I want out of a democratic congress completely.
    I don't have much to say except the current trade deficit is only going to get much worse and that bodes badly for anything good happening in this country.  Will anyone stand up for working americans?

    Trade deficits matter. Why would you quit your job to buy a trinket for a few dollars less? Guess what, its not your choice anymore.

    by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:18:35 PM PDT

  •  Living room? Board room? Locker room? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rightiswrong

    Since we haven't been properly introduced, and since I have invited a wide range of people to visit Daily Kos for the news and commentary that leads to something BETTER than the mainstream news.............I especially appreciate BETTER use of language and thought.

  •  I was a frequent poster on another political site (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JuliaAnn, xanthe, oortdust, neroden

    over the course of almost five years before I started coming here with any regularity. Over the course of my participation on that site, I witnessed cycles of hostility between people and personal flame wars erupting around elections and primaries, or often just for the hell of it. There were factions that formed and uneven moderation that allowed things to get way out of hand. And of course there was the mocking disdain that the site owner seemed to have developed over time for just about everyone that posted there. It was an interesting experience, to say the least.

    That site is now a sterile shell of what it used to be, largely because it tried to emulate this one as a business model. This type of structure was a bad fit for the long-time participants of that site. Many people could not endure the transition between the freewheeling near chaos and heavy handedness imposed by it's founder to make the changes.

    I guess the cautionary lessons I came away with from that experience are these: Civility between people is an enormously difficult thing to regulate over such a volatile subject matter as politics, even when those people are largely in agreement. Factions can form over the smallest differences and exponentially amplify animosity over even the most trivial of semantics in a discussion. Rewarding or promoting "celebrity" status of participants by moderators or site owners should be minimized. People can be stranger and nastier when hiding behind the shelter of anonymity than drunks in a bar hiding behind a few drinks. And finally, the whole thing can come crashing down rather quickly for even the most minor of changes if the rationale behind it is not fully explained in the most diplomatic way possible.

    ...no hell below us, above us only sky.

    by rightiswrong on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:39:08 PM PDT

  •  ..."Our readership are consumers" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    Arghhh!  As a fellow European (German, but naturalized here), the word CONSUMER and all of its  vile offspring - consumerism, consuming, consumption, consumer-oriented,etc. - is the single symbol for me that has been the downfall of the fine dream of a true Democracy for all people back in 1776.

    Consumer differs from "user" or "utilizer".  Consumer implies an unlimited appetite, and has been fuelled by advertisement and unending corporate support for decades, if not centuries.

    Who are we little people to break its momentum with our little foot in the door jam at this point?

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

    by Gabriele Droz on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 10:43:22 PM PDT

  •  your opinion does matter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaintyKat, shaharazade

    or it should, at any rate. while i am not averse to vulgarity - either in the sense of crudity or a less-than-polished manner opf discourse - as long as it gets the point across, i do dislike meanness, and see far too much of it these days, both here and elsewhere (try watching americvan teevee sometime).

    i'm not sure that there is anything to be done but continue speaking one's mind, and rewading those voices whom one appreciates, and trying to have what conversations as one can.

    i do hope that you'll keep writing, though. your opinion does mattter to me, even - especially - when i disagree with you.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 11:20:02 PM PDT

  •  I read and (0+ / 0-)

    enjoy your diaries. I also love a good cock up. I want the spirit of diversity and common ground to exist in my party. We are all fellow travelers on the road to taking back our country and all have both varying ways and language and contributions, but we are all needed and form a pretty good slice of what Democrats are. So I say (as a famous man said) Yell Louder.  

    "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

    by shaharazade on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 12:41:00 AM PDT

  •  excessive?!? (0+ / 0-)

    "It is not to my taste to attack political opponents by excessive branding of them as fascists, even though I feel some of their methodology bears more than a passing resemblance."

    It's spot-on fascism, detail for detail.  What could possibly be excessive about calling a fascist a fascist?

    Heck, if they weren't trying to win popular support, the Bushites would probably be proud to call themselves fascists.

    -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

    by neroden on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 12:49:42 AM PDT

  •  It hasn't changed that much (0+ / 0-)

    There has always been more recommends for rants than for diaries that take a lot of work and research to put together.
      You have to love putting together the big ones because you won't get the recognition from the mob.

    "PC Load Letter"? What the fuck does that mean?

    by gjohnsit on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 01:16:27 AM PDT

  •  Disagree here. (0+ / 0-)

    It is all to do with marketing and selling. Our readership are consumers and need entertainment like anyone else. That is where a strongly stated "fuck", an allusion to Goebbels and mentioning the anatomy of Jesus comes in so handy.

    These things can indeed be gratutous and offensive without the underlying context.

    WITH the context, they could have as much or more meaning and educational value as anything else.  And there's nothing wrong with the context having entertainment value as well.  An entertaining post can make something dry more interesting -- and therefore more likely to be learned, IF there's a useful connection to reality in the idea being shared.

    If, by way of, say, the specific examples you bring up, you are still offended regardless of context, that's fine.  Then you move on to something else.

    Bush doesn't listen to anyone but the competing voices in his head. The winner he calls "God" and runs with it.

    by dov12348 on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 01:54:19 AM PDT

  •  You must really dislike this vulgar world (0+ / 0-)

    Personally, the global community is rubbing me the wrong way too. It seems to be getting worse. I'm not certain to whom I should be writing my grievances about the increasing vulgarity and its proponents. I'd certainly hint that I'd be leaving it (the global community) behind if they don't smarten up. I might even lament that things were written so much better in the past (even though they never were). That would possibly get their attentions.

    Hang in there Welshman. You've been around and, like a senior citizen of the global community; you're just a bit tired of the rehashing of old concepts anew. There will always be lessons that have to be learned and relearned. Tolerance is not an easy concept to grasp by any stretch of the imagination.

    I like to thank people for their honesty when they spout off. After all, they are being honest and that is much better than what we are seeing from the men in power presently. They may be misguided, but they are naked and fully exposed so that their opinions are there to be critiqued by you or I. In that sense, I welcome all views.

  •  Form follows function (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Welshman

    sometimes.

    Consider for a moment if the issue at hand has something to do with the structure of Daily Kos.  most diaries shoot off the fornt page.  Once down a bit on the list, dairies are ignored.  

    The remedy to this is to get one's diary on the coveted 'rccomended' list.  A small fraction of the diarists here have name recognition on DKos.  These handful of folks can post a diary calm in their mind that it will be read by more than four or five people.

    Most people do not have that sort of name recognition.  And let's face it.  It is quite demoralizing to spend several hours crafting a diary, only to watch it plumment from view with a half-dozen comments.  

    Under that system it is inevitable some people will adopt gimmicks in order to draw attention.  Provocative titles are one gimmick.  But what is a provaocative title atop a dull, thoughtful diary?  It is bait-and-switch, that's what it is!  So gimmick #2 - the Fuck Diary - follows quickly on its heels.  Since the DKos system rewards quantity of response, it should be no surprise to see lowest common denominator diaries do well.

    But there may be reason for hope.  A front page article indicated this site will soon undergo a redesign.  Let us hope the redesign helps the occasional diarist compete for attention with the better-known writers.  

    It's a million-to-one shot, but it just might work!

    "A Republic, if you can keep it". Ben Franklin 1787, regarding the new Constitution. "Challenge accepted." George W. Bush, Jan 20, 2001.

    by Quicklund on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:09:39 AM PDT

  •  I write my own personal blog (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Welshman

    I write my own personal blog for some of the reasons you have stated. No ads. A few interested readers for whom I hold sincere appreciation.

    I see that there is a major difference between writing my own thoughts - and having subsequent  discussions with a few readers -
    and participating in this ever-widening experiment in democracy and group dynamics. We tend to feel as if our voices are getting lost in the chaos.

    Sometimes I'll read something I enjoy very much here at Kos and will fail to comment because of time constraints. I won't let it happen this time, because I understand how you feel and want you to know it.

    Kos has a very popular "tavern" here. I'm so glad it's here for our use - and should never be abuse.

    I appreciated your commentary.

  •  Tis the season? (0+ / 0-)

    A number of commenters have mentioned a change in 'tone' over the last couple of months. This aligns with Spring Break, which for many colleges and high schools began as early as mid February, and is still ongoing. This doesn't, of course, cover the adult contingent of rabble rousers (i.e. the recent chocolate coated debacle I thankfully missed). However, it does shine a different light on some diaries and many comments with badly done snark and high UID's showing their rears and many accused of trollishness that may be just young people honing their as yet unseasoned debate chops.

    To whatever extent this may explain some observed problems, let me say that after a couple of years here, if you didn't like the 'tone' recently, just wait til summer break!!

    Revolutionary words start revolutions

    by Catte Nappe on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 01:29:03 PM PDT

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