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As I was writing another diary about the Kennedy-Kyl immigration bill I suddenly realized that it may contain a huge Trojan Horse.

One of the provisions requires that employer verify employment eligibility electronically before an employee starts a job. That immediately brought up some concerns about privacy and identity theft. Another concern is just plain database errors in such a huge system. Will an individual have a way to correct an incorrect listing? What happens when somebody gets accidentally deleted?

And then I remembered fellow Kosack Jesselyn Radack and her story of being blacklisted for her private-sector job.

What if BushCo was considering to use this system not just to verify the right to work, but also to deny it?

Am I in tinfoil territory here? Or is the situation so bad that such a thing is even thinkable?

Originally posted to sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 08:36 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  There is almost nothing left of (54+ / 0-)

    'Tinfoil Territory'.

    Reality has erased the borders and eaten away at the ground beneath their feet.

    Throw away your tinfoil - free yourselves. There is nothing these people consider off-limits unless it applies to themselves.

    "We're all in this together" -- Harry Tuttle, legendary plumber

    by bablhous on Sat May 19, 2007 at 08:33:47 AM PDT

    •  In defense of reality-based community (13+ / 0-)

      It's fine to speculate but...there's so many terrible facts right out in the open, why bother?  

      What liberals fail to recognize is that regime change in Iraq is not some distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. That is a bogus argument. -- Thomas Friedman

      by markymarx on Sat May 19, 2007 at 08:36:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's always the details (7+ / 0-)

        that do us in.  So if we "don't bother" to think of areas where something might be misused and how we most certainly always seem to have to "undo" it later, and it isn't always so easy to undo.

        Anyone found a simple and straight forward way to get of the no-fly list yet?  I didn't think so.

        *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

        by Shirl In Idaho on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:18:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  because as bad as it is (12+ / 0-)

        that is just what we know.  

        We didn't "know" about the politicization of the DoJ, but now we do.

        We didn't "know" that the war in Iraq was all lies, but now we do.

        There is no longer CT BS.  Anything is possible when a government will flat out lie, not once, or twice, but repeatedly to get the country into, then keep it, in a war.

        Reality USED to be it couldn't happen here.  Well, reality has changed and the faster people start realizing it the better.

        •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

          As these things leak out, great, but there have always been backroom deals.

          The point is:  the known knows are enough to end the war, and bad enough to sink the GOP ship in 2008.  

          What liberals fail to recognize is that regime change in Iraq is not some distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. That is a bogus argument. -- Thomas Friedman

          by markymarx on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:09:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am not saying the knowns aren't bad... (5+ / 0-)

            or aren't bad enough to sink the GOP now.

            I'm saying that with everything we've found out in the past 6 years, there isn't much we should consider "beyond" them.

            That doesn't even get into what occurred during previous administrations that they could "pull from"; Iran/Contra style dealings, etc.

            I mean, come on, Bush said we'd get Bin Laden "dead or alive", then suddenly the "benchmark" for Iraq is a Hydrocarbon Law... and people want to talk about "reality"????

            Reality is our soldiers are dying daily for an oil "law" in Iraq while Bin Laden has been forgotten.  

            •  What is reality if not the American taxpayers... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bablhous, greenearth

              ... financing the biggest perpetual criminal act in the history of the world, i.e., the GWOT.

              Whether we want to or not, we're financing the military/entrepreneurial aspect of "globalization" while losing all individualism here at home.

              Think about it. Personal information of American citizens is now a commodity bought, sold and traded by governments, banks and corporations. Moreover, data theft has become so commonplace lately that we no longer even hear a lot about it in the news.

              Data theft in the first 5-months of 2007. Number of people affected in Bold text. This list is courtesy of WMR.

              (I don't trust everything Madsen says but his website seems to have done a meticulous job of documenting these thefts.)

              Target Date Number of persons affected Type of data Method

              Lucent/Alcatel   May 2007   200,000   SSNs, DOBs   Physical theft
              IBM May 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Birmingham Veterans Medical Center May 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs, Unique Physician ID Nos. (UPINs) Physical theft
              UCI Medical Center, CA May 2007 300 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Highland Hospital, Rochester, NY May 2007 13,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Texas Health and Human Services Commission May 2007 9,000,000 DOBs, SSNs Two week "loss"
              University of Missouri May 2007 22,396 DOBs, SSNs Hacking
              US Transportation Security Administration May 2007 100,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Marks and Spencer (UK) May 2007 20,000 DOBs, NINs Physical theft
              Royal Cornwall Trusts National Health Service (UK) May 2007 5,000 DOBs, National Insurance Numbers (NINs) Physical theft
              Louisiana State University Apr. 2007 750 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Maryland Dept. of Natural Resources Apr. 2007 1,400 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              J. P. Morgan Chase Apr. 2007 47,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              University of New Mexico Apr. 2007 3,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Caterpillar, Inc. Apr. 2007 unknown DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Neiman Marcus Apr. 2007 160,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Baltimore County Dept. of Health Apr. 2007 6,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Census Bureau Apr. 2007 30,000 SSNs Leak
              Ohio State University Apr. 2007 17,500 DOBs, SSNs Hacking
              Univ. of California, San Francisco Apr. 2007 3,000 DOBs, SSNs, cancer patient data Physical theft
              Bank of America Apr. 2007 unknown DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              New Horizons Community Credit Union, CO Apr. 2007 9,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              ChildNet, Broward County FL child welfare services Apr. 2007 12,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Georgia Dept. of Community Health/Affiliated Computer Services, Inc. Apr. 2007 2,900,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Chicago Public Schools Apr. 2007 40,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Florists' Mutual Insurance Company (Hortica) Apr. 2007 unknown DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              DCH Health Systems Apr. 2007 6,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Internal Revenue Service Apr. 2007 480 DOBs, SSNs, tax data Physical theft
              University of California, San Francisco Apr. 2007 46,000 DOBs, SSNs Hacking
              University of Montana - Western Mar. 2007 500 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Naval Station San Diego Mar. 2007 unknown DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              Los Angeles County Child Support Services Mar. 2007 243,000 DOBs, SSNs Physical theft
              National Health System (UK) Mar. 2007 11,500 DOBs, addresses of children Physical theft
              Halifax Bank (UK) Mar. 2007 13,000 Mortgage, financial data Physical theft
              US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC)Fort Monroe, VA Mar. 2007 16,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Group Health Cooperative Health Care System, Washington state Mar. 2007 31,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Swedish Urology Group, Seattle Mar. 2007 hundreds SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Tax Service Plus, Santa Rosa, CA Mar. 2007 4,000 SSNs, DOBs, tax info Physical theft
              Ohio State Auditor Mar. 2007 2,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Empire Blue Cross Mar. 2007 75,000 SSNs, DOBs, medical data Physical theft
              California National Guard, San Diego Naval Base Feb. 2007 1,300 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Metropolitan State College of Denver Feb. 2007 988 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Hospital for Sick Children, Ontario, Canada Feb. 2007 unknown medical data Physical theft
              Tokyo University of Science Feb. 2007 8800 Personal data Physical theft
              Gulf Coast Medical Center Feb. 2007 9900 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Japan Post Office Feb. 2007 290,000 Financial data Physical theft
              Worcester County Council, UK Feb. 2007 19,000 National insurance, bank data Physical theft
              Speedmark Feb. 2007 35,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Seton Hospitals, Austin Feb. 2007 7800 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Iowa Department of Education Feb. 2007 160,000 SSNs, DOBs Hacking
              Kaiser Permanente Feb. 2007 22,000 SSNs, DOBs, medical data Physical theft
              State of Indiana Feb. 2007 5600 Credit card numbers Hacking
              Radford University, Family Access to Medical Insurance Security (FAMIS) Feb. 2007 2400 SSNs, DOBs Hacking
              St. Mary's Hospital, Leonardtown, MD Feb. 2007 130,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Johns Hopkins University Feb. 2007 52,000*
              These did not include past/present employees of Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab, which works closely with the NSA, CIA, and other US intelligence agencies SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              New York State Department of Labor Feb. 2007 527 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Wisconsin Legislative Human Resources Office Feb. 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              CTS Tax Service Feb. 2007 800 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Massachusetts Dept. of Industrial Accidents Jan. 2007 1,200 SSNs, DOBs Hacking
              University of Missouri Jan. 2007 1,220 SSns, DOBs Hacking
              Dept. of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Birmingham, AL Jan. 2007 48,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Massachusetts National Guard, Lowell Jan. 2007 unknown personal data on recruits Physical theft
              Vermont Department of Human Services Jan. 2007 70,000 SSNs, DOBs, bank account numbers Hacking
              Salina Regional Health Center Jan. 2007 1,100 SSNs, DOBs, medical data Physical theft
              Eastern Illinois University Jan. 2007 1,400 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield Jan. 2007 50,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Vanguard University Jan. 2007 over 5,000 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Rutgers University-Newark Jan. 2007 200 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Xerox Jan. 2007 297 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Chicago Board of Elections Jan. 2007 1,300,000 SSNs Missing CDs

              Greenville County (NC) School District Jan. 2007 "thousands" SSNs, DOBs Temporarily "missing"
              Internal Revenue Service - Kansas City Jan. 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              KB Homes Jan. 2007 2,700 SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce - Talvest Fund Jan. 2007 470,000 Personal financial data Physical theft
              MoneyGram International Jan. 2007 79,000 Bank account nos. Hacking
              Rincon del Diablo Municipal Water District, CA Jan. 2007 500 Credit card nos. Physical theft
              University of New Mexico Jan. 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              University of Notre Dame Jan. 2007 unknown SSNs, DOBs Physical theft
              Selma, North Carolina Fire Department Jan. 2007 volunteer firemen SSNs, DOBs Physical theft

              Now, has anyone heard about the recovery of any of this personal data? Where does it go?

              And, if you think that's bad, you should see the lists for calendar years 2005 and 2006.

              •  Recovery is meaningless (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alizard

                Now, has anyone heard about the recovery of any of this personal data? Where does it go?

                It's not like stealing a physical thing. Once the data has been stolen, you have to assume that copies have been made, and there is no way to ever get the information back.

                BTW, the most widely stolen SSN was a case in 1938, known as the Woolworth SSN.

                The problem isn't new, although it's much easier in the age of the computer.

                Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:04:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What you're saying is tantamount to not... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... even trying to recover stolen hard-drives or discs.

                  Believe it or not, law enforcement agencies go after stolen data all the time. Federal task forces are busy everyday, hunting down data-thieves and their goods, in this country and around the world.

                  Now, whether they can recover all the data in all its varied reproductions is another story. But they still try.

                  But my point(s) were that:

                  1.) successful prosecutions and indictments of data-thieves are almost never publicized anymore. The companies who were stolen from aren't publicly complaining about their "loss."

                  2.) The feds aren't publicly denouncing data thieves or announcing new investigations and concentrated efforts at recovering stolen data. (Gonzalez could use some good publicity about now)

                  3.) I haven't heard a whole lot about any sharp rise in the number of people reporting data loss.

                  So, where's the data going? To that great database in the sky?

                  •  Not quite (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    markthshark

                    Although I have to admit that I made it sound like it.

                    The stolen hard disks are goods that are relatively easy to recover, and which are often important for prosecution.

                    successful prosecutions and indictments of data-thieves are almost never publicized anymore. The companies who were stolen from aren't publicly complaining about their "loss."

                    The first part is true. Identity theft has become such a mass crime that there just are too many cases. No different from car theft, really.

                    The companies who were stolen from are usually required by law to publicise this fact, and inform the victims. BTW, that doesn't change just because the hard disks may end up being recovered.

                    As far as I can see, this is usually followed fairly well, or are you saying that the disclosure law needs to be strengthened?

                    It also happens fairly frequently, and I'm sure those cases that make headlines are just the tip of the ice berg. Most smaller incidents would be handled directly from company to affected consumer/employee.

                    I haven't heard a whole lot about any sharp rise in the number of people reporting data loss.

                    Then you haven't been paying attention. Identity theft is one of the fastest-growing crimes.

                    So, where's the data going? To that great database in the sky?

                    LOL! Pretty much ;-) Actually, we just don't know, and never will, where an individual piece of data goes.

                    First off, in the majority of publicised cases, it later turns out that the thieves were after the hardware in the first place, and may not even have realized what they had. That seems to have been the case for the VA laptop theft, for instance.

                    However, from a security standpoint, that really changes nothing. Just because 80% of the data (or however much) ended up not getting copied or put on the Internet, you still have to assume in every single case that the data is among the 20% that did. We still do not know, for a fact, that the VA data wasn't copied - we just think that it problably wasn't. So in that sense, it still hasn't been recovered, and never will. Affected people will have to watch their credit for the rest of their lives.

                    As for where it goes: several places.

                    The Internet is the single biggest one. There are sites where criminals can simply download long (stolen) lists of credit cards and social security numbers.

                    And then there are direct sales of the lists among criminals.

                    Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                    by sdgeek on Sun May 20, 2007 at 12:43:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree with most of what you say... (0+ / 0-)

                      ... perhaps, I wasn't clear enough.

                      What I meant by this:

                      I haven't heard a whole lot about any sharp rise in the number of people reporting data loss.

                      I know identity theft is a fast growing crime, and I hear occasionally about someone's personal identity being stolen, but not on the scale of how fast personal information is being stolen. I'm talkin' 10s of millions of people in the last 2 and 1/2-years -- primarily from 4-countries -- U.S., Britain, Australia and Canada.

                      Don't you think that if 10s of millions of people were experiencing egregious identity woes, they'd be raisin' bloody hell in the streets? Alberto Gonzalez would have been sacked a long time ago. There's some serious shadowy shit goin' on behind the scenes.

                      Ok, I'll come clean.

                      When I want to be entertained I go to, WMR That's where I got the list. Anyway, I started reading his "conspiracy theory" du jour about Poindexter's TIA (total information awareness) program and how instead of blatantly breaking the law to get Americans' personal information, the Bush administration, through surrogates, is paying a bunch of clever, 2nd story 'puter geeks to rip it all off. I guess ChoicePoint isn't efficient enough.

                      Listen, there's no hard proof, and I'm not saying it's true but you gotta admit it's both clever and possible.

                      I'll concede that Madsen goes off the deep end sometimes but, much like Larry Johnson thinks like a CIA agent, Madsen still thinks like an FBI analyst, and the fact that he was with the FBI lends him at least a semblance of credibility... and he's not always wrong.

                      Oh yeah, Madsen also says Dick Cheney used to use prostitutes from the DC Madam when he was CEO of Halliburton. LOL

                      Just sayin'

                      •  You are quite right. (0+ / 0-)

                        Don't you think that if 10s of millions of people were experiencing egregious identity woes, they'd be raisin' bloody hell in the streets? Alberto Gonzalez would have been sacked a long time ago. There's some serious shadowy shit goin' on behind the scenes.

                        I think tens of millions of people ARE experiencing egregious identity woes. It is already bad enough for the IRS and the SSA to think about what to do when the Social Security Number has become useless as an identification mechanism. I read something about such contingency plans in some computer magazine a while ago (can't remember where exactly).

                        Part of it, though, is that in many cases, criminals are only picking a few victims from the huge databases, and in other cases, may only victimize all of them to the tune of a few dollars, something most may not even notice.

                        Anyway, I started reading his "conspiracy theory" du jour about Poindexter's TIA (total information awareness) program and how instead of blatantly breaking the law to get Americans' personal information, the Bush administration, through surrogates, is paying a bunch of clever, 2nd story 'puter geeks to rip it all off. I guess ChoicePoint isn't efficient enough.

                        I actually considered that a fact, or as close to a fact as we know with such a secretive organization.

                        Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                        by sdgeek on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:25:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  The old saying is ''tip of the iceberg'' (6+ / 0-)

          The part you can see is just the tip of the iceberg. Ninety percent of the mass of an iceberg is under the water line. All the parts that we don't know about yet that could really sink America's "ship of state."

          The Dutch children's choir Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “children for children”) is a world cultural treasure.

          by lotlizard on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:40:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well Stated--No 'tinfoil" but REALITY (8+ / 0-)

      Isn't that the truth? I mean all of those once  fiction type's of stories have come true, haven't they?

    •  Cheney, Rove and company (0+ / 0-)

      must have screened "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith and Gene Hackman for pointers.  Unfortunately for Cheny and Rove and Co., in the movie, the bad guys lost.  C, R etc are hoping for an alternate ending.

      On a planetary scale, habitat and life are interchangeable.

      by libbys mom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:51:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You are absolutely correct... (27+ / 0-)

    this is the entire problem with our current police state mentality on immigration. Any real enforcement will involve a huge database that will encumber us ALL. In our drive to drive away all the 'dangerous' landscaper and maid illegals, we are subjecting ourself to big brother at its worst. Any system that threatens our RIGHT TO WORK is threatening our RIGHT TO A LIVELIHOOD.

    Given how ridiculous our current 'mainstream' viewpoints are on immigration, we deserve whatever crap we get. Our illegally arriving founding fathers are turning in their graves.

    •  What's your solution then? (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sooner, BobOak, greenearth, DSPS owl, oscarsmom

      Unless you really advocate open borders, then it follows that employers must be prevented from hiring those legally ineligible for work.  And in order to prevent them from doing so (and punish them for violations) they need to have some system to determine who is and who is not eligible.

      •  Exactly what we've been doing for 50 years. (36+ / 0-)

        Nothing much.

        Where's the crisis, except in the minds of the lunatic Right-wing?  Have you been pushed out of a job by an illegal immigrant?  Unless you wash dishes, tar roofs, or do agricultural stoop labor, it's highly unlikely.

        The real problem is the other free movement that no one wants to talk about: the free-flow of jobs and corporate capital moving off-shore.

        The whole immigration broohaha is a distraction from that much more serious problem for the American Middle-classes.

        •  The crisis is THIS (25+ / 0-)

          Suddenly, GOP realises all those brown people are going to vote democrats. And there are more than enough to turn the tide.

          Tht's what happens. That is the crisis. There aren't enough GOP voting dixie-crat left to hold the GOP seats in the south over the next decades.

          It's demographic.

        •  Actually, that's not true (14+ / 0-)

          In many areas, you can add "clean office buildings, hotels or motels, do construction work or landscape work, or work in a meat-packing plant" to your list, and that by no means exhausts the places where undocumented immigrants constitute a significant percentage of the workforce.

          I'm generally quite pro-immigrant, and my wife and I even took a couple from Baltimore to the demonstration in Washington last year when all the buses from the local Catholic Church were filled, but facts are facts, and undocumented workers are filling a lot more jobs than those of dishwasher, roofer, or agricultural laborer.

          "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

          by leevank on Sat May 19, 2007 at 08:56:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am an immigrant myself (23+ / 0-)

            so I am very pro-immigrant.  At the same time, here are the fundamental problems.

            1.  Allowing undocumented migrants to work creates an ideal climate for exploitaition of these people.  They have no protection of any kind and they can be paid less than the minimum wage, no overtime, no health insurance, no other labor protection.  (And often no other protection because they are often afraid of going to police).
            1.  Allowing illegal migrants to work also undermines US labor market insofar as the corporations can illegally hire people at less than required rate thus pricing out US unskilled (and sometimes even skilled) laborers out of the market.
            •  The main target is unions (15+ / 0-)

              Cash only labor tends to be non-union. Unions are where the bargaining power is to raise wages.

              I'll never understand why a union member votes Republican, a political party that wants to see the very way union members earn a wage destroyed.

              •  Union members vote Republican (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                susie dow, lorzie

                quite often for social reasons.  They tend to be more conservative on those.  Also, too many Democrats (not necessarily elected ones, but prominent Hollywood types) outright denigrate anyone who is not "sophisticated" and does not live in large cities.  After such attitude, it is hard to convince someone that you care about their issues.

              •  Other than meat packers, these jobs have never (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Canadian Reader, wa ma

                been extensively unionionized, not even in the 1960s, which was the apogee of unionization in America.

                The far the biggest drain on union membership has been off-shoring and globalization, not illegal immigration.

                •  Construction work has certainly been heavily ... (12+ / 0-)

                  unionized, although there have always been non-union contractors.  But if the non-union contractors can hire undocumented immigrants, they're assured of several things:  First, they can probably hire them for less wages than it would take to hire Americans, thus further increasing their advantage over the union contractors.  Perhaps even more importantly, they know that the union won't be able to organize their workers, because at the first hint of an organizing campaign, they can easily get rid of the "trouble-makers" with little fear of any worse consequences than having to hire new undocumented workers.

                  Before so much construction work was being done by undocumented immigrants, non-union firms had to pay pretty close to the union wage scale in order to avoid being organized.  But the availability of undocumented workers has not only reduced the necessity of paying close to union scale, it has exerted downward pressure on union construction wages, because if the union scale is too much above what non-union contractors are paying, the union contractors won't be able to compete successfully for work.

                  "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

                  by leevank on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:23:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly. ICE just raided Smithfield on (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                susie dow

                the pretense of illegal immigrants, but their real purpose was to bust the union that underpaid  workers (probably including those illegals) were attempting to unionize. What a great cover for union busting.

              •  Agree and I don't understand why we want (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                susie dow, grrr, sdgeek, zenobia

                to hand Bush a legislative victory right now. He just gave the back of his hand on Iraq and we want to give them another issue they can use to nitpick Clinton, Edwards and Obama? I don't think this will pass, anyway. I want to see those 70 Repub votes in the House.

                "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

                by blindyone on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:32:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  if they were legally allowed to work (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mike Erwin, oscarsmom

              then maybe they wouldn't be afraid of going to the police, and they wouldn't get exploited.

              •  But that brings us back to the original (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sooner, pkbarbiedoll, oscarsmom

                question, to wit, should anyone who manages to come to this country in whatever way be given a right to work?  In other words, do you favor open borders?

              •  Duh (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Drgrishka1, oscarsmom, blindyone

                "if they were legally allowed to work..."

                then what do you do about the next wave of illegal immigration? and the next wave after that?

                Do the waves stop only after the u.s. has reached wage parity with countries like Mexico?

                will illegal immigration only cease once WE have reached a 10$ a day "minimum wage"?

                just asking

                •  Legal vs. illegal immigration (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Canadian Reader, Mike Erwin

                  Fundamentally, they are all just waves of immigration. The only thing that changed in the meantime is our immigration law.

                  Remember the Vietnamese Boat People in the 1970s/1980s? That was the big debate when I was in high school, with many of the same points argued as today about Mexicans.

                  It's also why I'm not concerned about waves of immigration, whether legal or illegal (and I definitely prefer them to be legal).

                  Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                  by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:50:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  we had an obligation to the vietnamese (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlueInARedState

                    we have no such obligation to Mexico.

                    In fact, were it not for the social safety valve that life in the United States affords Mexicans and the Mexican government, Mexico would have had another revolution by now. A revolution they desperately need to have.

                    What bothers me most about ILLEGAL immigration are two things.

                    Good jobs and tax dollars going to subsidize the well being of citizens from other countries who have broken our laws to get them.

                    1. The fact that we don't know who's coming in.

                    The stereotype on the Left is of Sombrero twisting peasant, humble and kind, who's come to work like an ox in the American Orchard.....

                    Mexicans are people though, Some good, some bad, some funny, some fucked up.
                    Who is sneaking in here? Who knows.

                    But don't forget, Mexico is a MORE violent country than ours, marked by institutions (created by Mexicans) and policies that have caused millions to FLEE.

                    •  Waves of immigration (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Canadian Reader

                      Vietnamese was just an example. Before them, it was Germans, Irish, Polish, Italian, Chinese. The waves of immigrants go back as far as our nations history does.

                      Good jobs and tax dollars going to subsidize the well being of citizens from other countries who have broken our laws to get them.

                      The fact that we don't know who's coming in.

                      The solution to both problems is the same: create a sane immigration policy, the type of policy we had through the 1970s. Allow them to come legally, and we will know who they are.

                      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:38:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  sooner or later (0+ / 0-)

                        it is going to get pretty crowded.

                        the particular is higher than the universal -SK

                        by Thomas Twinnings on Sat May 19, 2007 at 06:57:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Later rather than sooner (0+ / 0-)

                          The US is one of the least populated countries in the world.

                          Compare the US with Germany: a quarter of the US population living in an area the size of Arizona or Washington State.

                          Or look at Japan.

                          Or even Mexico: one third of the US population in one ninth of the US land mass.

                          The US really does have a lot of space.

                          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:13:49 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, those in lower rungs of the unskilled labor (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AmericanRiverCanyon

            and services markets do have to compete with illegals.  But, other than that, they do not present a significant threat to American job seekers or pay scales.

            •  Guess again, except that it's legal (12+ / 0-)

              to destroy professional jobs through insourcing (H-1Bs).  Bill Gates et al claim that we have a shortage of technical workers.  They have some pretty charts to prove it.  But take a look at professional wages.  They have been stagnant at best.  If we had a shortage, salaries would be going up.

              I would change jobs if I knew where to go.  The trades have been decimated by illegal immigration, and the professions have been decimated by H-1Bs.  It's all about cheap labor.

              You want fries with that?

              "Davis-Bacon prevailing wage, I'm not sure what that is" Sen. Jeff Sessions

              by Hens Teeth on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:16:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If we have a shortage, the jobs go abroad. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Canadian Reader, sdgeek

                That's why domestic IT wages haven't gone up.

                It's not a hermetically contained job market anymore.  Cutting off the supply of foreign IT workers just forces US companies to relocate their operations abroad.

                Restrictionists in the IT field are only cutting their own throats.  There won't be a U.S. technology sector in 20 years for that very reason.

                •  No. They come here. We train them. (7+ / 0-)

                  Then they take our jobs back with them.

                  Or. They come here.  We train them.  They start a company that only hires people that they import.

                  I work with a lot of immigrants.  Many are friends.  They are nice, hard working people that are just doing the best they can with our sorry world economy.  We are all being used in the race to the bottom.

                  "Davis-Bacon prevailing wage, I'm not sure what that is" Sen. Jeff Sessions

                  by Hens Teeth on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:35:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's largely a myth. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Canadian Reader

                    Most people who are hired with H-1Bs are coming out of US universities, and they go on to LPR and citizenship.  They make a critical contribution to US industry, and allow American companies to maintain operations here.  That's been the case for decades.  

                    The "job shop" problem was addressed at the beginning of the decade, but there's been a drop-off in enforcement of that restriction in the last few years.  I would have no probklem if USCIS and DOL started enforcing that again.

                    •  Yep. H-1B is unsuitable for that (0+ / 0-)

                      B-1 is the more commonly used visa for that situation. And there is little we can do about that without choking off business travel completely. Even today, some people prefer to do business in Europe because it's too difficult to get a B-1 for the US.

                      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:47:35 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  H-3 trainee and J-1 exchange visas, (0+ / 0-)

                        but those categories present huge problems for employers to set up approvable programs and they also require those trained to depart the US for a period of 6 mos. to two years.

                        BTW - some J-1 programs are being abused, in my opinion, to bring in seasonal workers from eastern Europe such as waitresses and shop clerks to work in resort towns and as summer camp counselors and as life guards.  To some extent, it's a reward to the "New Europe" countries for staying in NATO and participation in the "coalition of the willing."

                        •  H-3 yes, J-1 no (0+ / 0-)

                          H-3 is indeed specifically a trainee program; it was created to allow training foreigners.

                          J-1, no. For one, the employer is not the sponsor (with very rare exception. Disney is one of the few employers who does sponsor J-1s directly for their Disneyworld attractions).

                          J-1s are allowed to work as part of their exchange program.

                          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:07:04 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  B-1 visa does not permit employment (0+ / 0-)

                        It is a visa allowing you to either be a tourist or conduct business, i.e., trade, buy or sell stuff, but not be employed.

                        •  It also allows training sessions etc. (0+ / 0-)

                          The rules for a B-1 are actually very complex, because the boundary between "employment" and "conducting business" is so fluid.

                          For instance, a B-1 can be used to train foreign employees in using machinery or systems made in the USA.

                          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:08:27 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Right... I guess it's hard to define (0+ / 0-)

                            it, but generally, you cannot do "work for hire" on B-1 visa

                          •  Foreign consultants can use B-1 (0+ / 0-)

                            Let's say that you hire a British molecular scientist. As long as the majority of his work is done in Britain, and he gets paid by a British employer, he can come to the US as a business visitor. He couldn't come to the US to actually do his project work, but that is a very difficult line to draw.

                            Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                            by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:34:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  not true (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Hens Teeth

                      this is simply false the percentage from one of the highest green card sponsors is only 25% in comparison to the number of H-1B hires.

                      This is plain not factual.

                      http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:10:14 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Corporate propaganda talking point (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sooner, BlueInARedState, Hens Teeth

                  Claiming if we do not import cheap labor the jobs will just be offshore outsourced is a major corporate lobbyists propaganda talking point.

                  The facts are 7 of the top 10 H-1B Visa applicants are Indian corporations who have only 1 business model, to offshore outsource your job.

                  They use the H-1Bs to train on technology in the US, labor arbitrage American and eventually transfer that very technology out of the United States and to India where labor is 1/20th of the cost.

                  They are complaining to the WTO, U.S. trade representative for a reason...they see this as something to be traded.  They think that American jobs are something to be traded, people, workers are something to be traded.

                  The H-1B Visa puts offshore outsourcing on steroids and as the Indian Commerce Minister said:

                  H-1B has become the outsourcing visa

                  http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                  by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:08:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Two errors there (4+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Canadian Reader, mariachi mama, sdgeek, oscarsmom
                    Hidden by:
                    BobOak

                    First, the ever so common "cheap foreign labor" myth does not apply to H-1Bs.  Here are the prevailing wages in the DC metro area for Software Engineers, which must be paid to H-1B workers:

                    http://www.flcdatacenter.com/...
                    FLC Wage Results   New Quick Search   New Search Wizard

                    You selected the All Industries database for 7/2006 - 6/2007.

                    Your search returned the following: Print Format
                    Area Code: 47894
                    Area Title: WASHINGTON-ARLINGTON-ALEXANDRIA, DC-VA-MD-WV
                    OES/SOC Code: 15-1031
                    OES/SOC Title: Computer Software Engineers, Applications
                    Level 1 Wage: $26.59 hour - $55,307 year
                    Level 2 Wage: $33.18 hour - $69,014 year
                    Level 3 Wage: $39.76 hour - $82,701 year
                    Level 4 Wage: $46.35 hour - $96,408 year

                    Myth #2 that you perpetuate is that H-1B visas are used primarily by Indian outsourcing companies to train Indian nationals so they can return to India to work in India.

                    That is totally off-the-wall.

                    Once a foreign national is fortunate enough to get an H-1B visa -- there were only 65,000 available annually -- an experienced IT person is not about to go back to work in India.  Not by choice, anyway.  (S)he will, instead, find another US employer, transfer the H-1B to a new job, and will stay here to apply those valuable skills and experience.

                    Indian government officials are understandably enthusiatic about the outsourcing firms that operate in that country, but they "recapture" relatively few  people educated and trained in the United States.  Those who do return are the unfortunate ones who were unable to find sponsors or complete the incredibly difficult, time-consuming, and expensive  employment-based green card process.

                    •  FALSE (0+ / 0-)

                      That is absolutely FALSE and if you bothered to read the statistics from people who are clearly more credible than you, you would know that...

                      anyone else reading this check my previous diaries they have the evidence posted in there.

                      TRed for trying to claim proven statistics in previous posts plus the Government Accountability office is somehow incorrect.

                      Misinformation spread.

                      http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:34:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Two mistakes there: TR abuse, and (3+ / 1-)

                        megalomania.

                        It's your responsibility, Bob, to cite some sort of source to refute the BLS statistics I printed.

                        You attacked my credibility, the sources I cite, and then tell readers to go check out your past diaries for proof that I'm somehow spreading "disinformation".

                        How arrogant of you.

                        •  I already have (0+ / 0-)

                          you know I have, I have diaries and entire website devoted to it and you just like to troll these facts.

                          We have Senators quoting these facts and they have vetted them...go accuse them of of your outrageous attempts to spread misinformation...

                          and you are not quoting anything but posting websites with zero analysis.

                          spare me this obfuscation.  you're trolling because the facts, as many Senators confirm, bear out my statements and are already in my diaries.

                          http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:11:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  BLS stats count H-1Bs (0+ / 0-)

                          I've stated this as well and the total aggregate number of engineering jobs is down in the US, about 500k.  People who are underemployed, forced out of the field are not counted.

                          So, trying to spin by quoting some unemployment statistic is meaningless...

                          but of course economists point this out, but since your agenda is simply misinformation you won't.

                          http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:15:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  I think corporations should be required (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  grrr, carpunder

                  to pay everyone--EVERYONE--at least minimum wage, and to pay their workers abroad the same level as they pay their workers in the US.  

                  Also, they should be prohibited from moving offshore.  If they do, they will be blacklisted and cannot sell their products here.

                  Is that too much to ask?  Would solve a lot of problems.  The root problem of course is not brown people, but corporate greed.

                  Never give up! Never surrender!

                  by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:39:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I have recently worked on a case (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marina, Hens Teeth

              where the illegal immigrant in question was an accountant by training in his native S. American country, and was employed as an accountant here.  (Obviously, off the books, and below the prevailing wage.  That in turn caused him to deal in drugs to support his disabled son at home, which in turn caused him to be caught and earn a roughly 20 year sentence).

              So, as you can see, it's not just gardners and office cleaners.

              •  Abuse rampant in the system (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                carpunder

                He was hired as slave labor, and abused for it.  It's not necessarily being against these people to be against employing illegal immigrants.  Stories like this should not happen.

                Never give up! Never surrender!

                by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:42:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My point exacty (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  oscarsmom, carpunder

                  Look, as an immigrant myself, I understand perfectly well that people come here seeking a better life.  But that process needs to be regulated for a number of reasons.  We need to prevent exploitation of immigrants.  We also need to make sure that employers are not evading our labor laws by hiring people off the books.  And we also need to make sure the borders are secure.  Because if some Joe can easily walk across the border in search of a better job, then John can do it just as easily but to deal drugs, and Steve can do it just as easily in order to set off a bomb.

          •  As an immigrant myself (4+ / 0-)

            thanks for the incredibly warm welcome.  I feel generally quite pro you, too.

            I think you need to be more careful with your language.  There are plenty of us who come here to do the jobs that you can't, not just to wash your dishes.

            •  You're absolutely correct. (2+ / 0-)

              I work with higher-order systems analysts and engineers.  When I see the transcript of people from universities in Asia and even the Philippines, I can only marvel at the incredible rigour of their technical education.

              Americans need to realize that while we still have most of the world's money, and some of the very best universities, on average we have fallen far behind in engineering and scientific education.

              Severe cuts and oversubscription in H-1B and Second Preference employment-based numbers even threatens the university system we have.  There are global options now for students seeking top scientific educations.  If America manages to loose that edge, as well, Gawd help us.

              •  Blame the fundies for this (0+ / 0-)

                Americans need to realize that while we still have most of the world's money, and some of the very best universities, on average we have fallen far behind in engineering and scientific education.

                  Fundies don't DO science -- they barely do education.

                  They're the absolute worst thing about America today.

                "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

                by Buzzer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:57:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We would not need so many overseas PhDs (0+ / 0-)

                  if we did a better job at education here.  There are what, over 300 Million people in the US?  I'm guessing that 3 to 9 Million or so could be engineers or scientists, if they were educated for it and paid appropriately afterward.

                  the particular is higher than the universal -SK

                  by Thomas Twinnings on Sat May 19, 2007 at 07:06:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I don't know what was remotely offensive ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blindyone

              about my language that I "need to be more careful" with it.  And my point was that there are indeed LOTS of jobs other than washing dishes that are being done by undocumented immigrants, much less documented ones.

              "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

              by leevank on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:27:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's the way you said (0+ / 0-)

                I'm generally quite pro-immigrant

                I can't help but turn that language about into sentences like "I'm generally quite pro-woman" and "I'm generally quite pro-gay" and "I'm generally quite pro-black" and thereby noticing how unpleasant it sounds, what damning by faint praise it is.

                I think you mean "I'm generally quite pro-immigration".

                •  Actually, I meant it the way I said it (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Canadian Reader, sdgeek

                  I'm less pro-immigration (which I take to mean going forward) than I am pro-immigrant (by which I mean the people who are already here).  We obviously need significant levels of immigration (probably significantly higher than the LEGAL levels now), but I'm certainly not in favor of going back to the situation of earlier in our history, where if you could pay for your passage here and weren't sick or a criminal, you got in.

                  I think there are some powerful arguments on both sides for how much immigration we should allow going forward, but I don't think there's any serious argument that it's either possible or advisable to attempt to deport the 12 million or so undocumented immigrants who are already here, assuming that they're working productively and not committing serious, non-status crimes.  And I think it's mean-spirited and utterly pointless to say to the people who are already here, "Well, you can get back in, but you have to leave first."

                  "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

                  by leevank on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:53:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yeah (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sdgeek

                    I am connected with some Mexican people that that particular doozy is going to affect, and I just can't see how it's going to be a workable proposition for many people, let alone an attractive one.  I just can't see people easily opting to participate when the costs (not just the $5,000 fine, but all the other costs) are so great.

                    I mean, these are people who've lived and worked here for decades.  They have no "home" to go to, if America isn't it!  It's as if the legislation assumes every undocumented worker is a manual labourer working job to job, who can easily disappear for a year.

                    For the seasonal manual labourers, American employers who currently employ illegal Mexican workers on a large scale seasonal basis should be required to set up recruiting stations south of the border, which would catch up that kind of worker on an ongoing basis.  For illegal workers who are in full-time employment, though?  I have no suggestions other than straightforward amnesty and a fine, because sending them "home" is going to be a paradox in many of those cases.

            •  The question is, (0+ / 0-)

              are non-nationals being hired because they're better at the job, or because they'll work for less?

              In Europe and other countries, an employer wishing to hire a non-national must prove to the gov't that they made a good faith effort for at least a year to employ a national with the desired qualifications.

              Never give up! Never surrender!

              by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:44:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Europe isn't a country (0+ / 0-)

                And I don't knwo what European country you are referring to.

                Immigration rules actually vary widely from one country to the next.

                Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:20:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  leveymg (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fladem, BobOak, Hens Teeth, blindyone

          "Have you been pushed out of a job by an illegal immigrant?  Unless you wash dishes, tar roofs, or do agricultural stoop labor, it's highly unlikely."

          You too are spreading the casual right wing lie that the only jobs taken are those "that americans won't do". There is NO job an american won't do (or hasn't done in the past when the u.s. had a fraction of the illegal population it has now.)

          They had a hard time finding farm workers recently in California..Why?
          Because a lot of the Mexicans who used to do it had moved into more appealing, better paid, construction work during the Housing boom....

          •  I think your example of the CA ag workers (0+ / 0-)

            shortage illustrates my point.  Tarring roofs is construction work.  There's no doubt that sector is heavily reliant on illegals working for small contractors.  See my post above about that, which suggests a solution.

            •  Roofing? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              grrr, BobOak, Thomas Twinnings, blindyone

              are you a propagandist for illegal immigration?

              My point is that GOOD jobs are being taken.

              You keep repeating the "maid meme".
              (maid, toilet cleaner, tar spreader, cotton picker etc)

              The jobs for illegals get much more decent and lucrative than that.

              Everyone.
              Think back to your first jobs....
              how many of you waited tables, cut grass, pumped gas, washed dishes, babysat, washed cars, worked retail or did really hard construction work (and loved it)?

              How many of you are STILL doing that kind of work?
              How many of you have moved UP and out of those entry level jobs? (the ones that help us aquire the habits of work)

            •  Which suggests that you believe that (0+ / 0-)

              business interests want a "solution". I don't.

              "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

              by blindyone on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:45:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not suggesting that multinationals want (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sdgeek, oscarsmom, blindyone

                any sort of solution to the problems caused in America by total Free Trade policies.  They're making plenty of money being able to close U.S. plants at will and still sell their stuff here.

                That sort of absolute freedom of operation is the very thing that's decimating the American middle-class, industry by industry.

                Illegal aliens have not done anything like that amount of damage to the job-base.

                •  Good comment but I guess that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sooner

                  we'll have to agree to disagree. Not sure how you could measure how much damage undocumented folks have done to the job-base. I'm not a conspiracy theorist type but I don't believe job stats coming from this administration of liars. When the construction jobs dry up when the housing market drops how do you see that in job stats when all of this is off the books?

                  "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

                  by blindyone on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:34:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Construction hasn't dried up yet (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blindyone

                    Actually, it has started to, and you do have a point - it primarily affected illegal immigrants because when an employer terminates a legal worker, they will be responsible for unemployment benefits.

                    But there are tons and tons of legal workers in construction, too. It will be a while before the full impact hits.

                    Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                    by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:23:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, there is alot of competition (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sooner

            When I was just out of college it was very hard to get a job, any job, even the low-paying jobs.  In fact, when I told potential employers about my college degree, they looked at me kind of funny and said that they only hired folks who would "stay with the job" (i.e. people who had no other choices).

            the particular is higher than the universal -SK

            by Thomas Twinnings on Sat May 19, 2007 at 07:12:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Distraction (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          yet another liberal, dougymi

          The whole immigration broohaha is a distraction

          I agree.  I think it's another way for the administration to stir up fear, so they can find more avenues to erode our basic constitutional rights.

          I doubt it's a coincidence that this bill was introduced the same week news channels announced that ethnic minorities now make up 1/3 of the US population.

        •  Well, excuse me ... (5+ / 0-)

          But where I live, those "brown people" who work under the table illegally are driving down the wages and causing unemployment of a LOT of people who would otherwise be building houses or working night shift at unpleasant factories -- but be paid for doing so, and paid decently.  Instead, they are being undercut by slave labor that can be kept in line by the terror of an Immigration rap.

          The solution lies somewhere in the territory of restating labor law to negate a Supreme Court decision in 2001 that ruled, essentially, that illegals have no labor rights, can be deported for demanding fair and equal treatment at work, and can't recover damages for illegal employer acts or omissions.  If they have the same rights as everyone else and can't be treated as slaves, then the rest of us don't have to lower ourselves to slave-status to compete with them.  And if they have equal rights under the laws, then we don't need a mega-database to find and eliminate them (which will never happen anyway because the corporations don't want to).

        •  well... (0+ / 0-)

          Where's the crisis, except in the minds of the lunatic Right-wing?  Have you been pushed out of a job by an illegal immigrant?  Unless you wash dishes, tar roofs, or do agricultural stoop labor, it's highly unlikely

          I feel bad about people who come here desperate to work at any cost to keep their families alive. On the other hand, washing dishes, tarring roofs, or stoop labor, are necessary. They are underpaid due to illegal immigration...it creates a class of underpaid workers - which are practically serfs - and lowers American wages - both of which are just wrong....

          I'm not ready to make nice... (Dixie Chicks)

          by grrr on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:14:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Solution: simple (22+ / 0-)

        Enforce labor laws, and punish employers of illegal immigrants and employers that take advantage of lax labor, safety and health rules to lower down wage and standards for everybody else.

        Dean Baker had a post on that theme very recently:

        USA Today treated its readers to a story about the crisis that is coming due to a shortage of utility line workers. According to the article, utility companies won't be able to keep the juice flowing because there aren't enough workers to maintain and repair electricity lines.

        Well, in the United States, we have what is called a "market economy." In a market economy, shortages are supposed to lead to an increase in the price of the item that is being inadequately supplied, in this case utillity line workers. This means that we should expect to see sharply rising wages for utlity line workers.

        (...)

        In short, there is no shortage of line workers. This sounds like a case where utlity executives have adopted a strategy where they don't want to pay enough to get the necessary workforce, which would lower corporate profit and CEO pay. They will then whine about worker "shortages" when people are forced to go without electricity. The media should be exposing a strategy that is putting the health and well-being of the country in danger, not cooperating with utlity company executives by spreading stories that are clearly not true.

        The common theme is this: let's not lower the standards to the discourse to make it sound that work is a privilege and thus that corporations or Homeland Security can dictate terms that have the sole goal of increasing bottom line profits for cronies and nothing else. Immigrants are just a useful bogeyman to distract the masses form the underlying issue.

        •  thank you (16+ / 0-)

          I'm reading some of the bill and it gets so worse, this is nothing but a major cheap labor fest and will decimate working America.  It's a disaster frankly.

          I'm busy reading the section that turns our entire education system into a guest worker Visa as I type.

          sdgeek has to be tin hat because he constantly posts massive misinformation on this topic.

          People, please burn this into your brain:

          THERE IS NO WORKER SHORTAGE.  THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, NURSES, TEACHERS, ELECTRICIANS, PLUMBERS, HOME MORTGAGE OFFICERS, ECONOMISTS, ACCOUNTANTS

          Wages have declined across the board by inflation
          and here's another tidbit..

          H-1B VISA holders are counted in the BLS stats to hide the true statistics of unemployed STEM  professionals.

          http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

          by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:16:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In certain industries, there is a real shortage (3+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader, sdgeek, oscarsmom
            Hidden by:
            BobOak

            of fully-qualified professionals.  That list includes research and applications engineers, nursing/health professions, and teachers, particularly in rural and inner-city areas.

            The number of new H-1Bs issued each year (65,000) is just a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the domestic labor force.

            Immigrants are not the overarching source of immiseration of American workers, particularly for skilled workers in specialty occupations.  There are 50-60 million college graduates in the US workforce, competing for about 20 million "specialty occupations".  http://www.bls.gov/...

            •  FALSE (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mimi9, Spoonfulofsugar

              The duke study, not only posted in my posts but front paged on dailykos proves

              THERE IS NO WORKER SHORTAGE

              and if you would pay attention to the nurses union who posts are here, they are saying the same thing in their field.

              you are a misinformation troll frankly.

              http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

              by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:36:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I just cannot believe (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jerome a Paris, Spoonfulofsugar

              that nurses or teachers would not be available FAST if the PAY and WORKING CONDITIONS were better.

              I'm not ready to make nice... (Dixie Chicks)

              by grrr on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:27:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Training them takes years (0+ / 0-)

                And given the work environment, there are not enough interested in even starting the training.

                Actually, this goes to show that H-1B has nothing to do with pay. Teacher pay and conditions are bad even though teachers can't usually get H-1Bs (technically, teachers would qualify, but the school year - and school board hiring dates - start at a time when the quota is unavailable, so in practical terms it is impossible for teachers to get an H-1B).

                Nurses don't qualify at all for H-1B (there is an H-1C, but I believe that has expired).

                Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:29:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  There is NO worker shortage (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mimi9, Jerome a Paris

              Just greedy union-busting, lying employers.

              Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has had to overcome. Booker T Washington

              by Spoonfulofsugar on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:14:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly, the corporations are using both (9+ / 0-)

          citizen and immigrant labor.  They want us to think that we are each other's enemies, but they are using us to destroy all labor rights.

          Get rid of NAFTA, etc.  It's bad for the U.S., and worse for other countries.
          Enforce labor laws.

          "Davis-Bacon prevailing wage, I'm not sure what that is" Sen. Jeff Sessions

          by Hens Teeth on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:28:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When you say, get rid of NAFTA... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jerome a Paris

            I'd be willing to go along with that, except what I'm afraid of is that without such an agreement, trade conditions would be worse, not better.

            Canadians accepted NAFTA very reluctantly. The argument that convinced us to go along was, "Bad though this deal is, it is the best we're going to get. If we don't tie the US down to this treaty now... we're going to regret it intensely in the near future."

            I'd be all in favor of an amendment to the treaty that required all three countries to live up Canadian labour law standards. That would immediately abolish all those egregious "right to work" laws in the States that make union-busting so easy.

            But we all know that's not going to happen.

            Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

            by Canadian Reader on Sat May 19, 2007 at 03:56:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Many immigrants are employed by their families (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Canadian Reader

          What you are advocating is to make people enforce repressive and unjust laws against their own relatives, as well as making all small business people agents of the state.

          Sorry, to this American it's too reminiscent of the Fugitive Slave Act.

        •  Exactly (7+ / 0-)

           When someone says, "We can't find workers to do X", he's usually omitting the rest of the sentence: "We can't find workers to do X at the wages we're offering."

           If I offered a million dollars to have my toilets cleaned, I'd have a line of applicants out my door and into the next city...

          "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

          by Buzzer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:01:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Precisely--those paragons of the free market (5+ / 0-)

            are unwilling to accept the market value set on labor.  

            If we have to pay more for garbage collection, cleaning, fruit picking, etc. than so be it.  Maybe we'll have to pay more for blueberries.  If we don't like that we can subsidize the farmers more than we are already.  It's not like there aren't solutions to these problems out there!

            Never give up! Never surrender!

            by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:49:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Tricky argument to make (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jerome a Paris

            First of all, I agree with you.

            I also think that in the end, the economic impact will surprise people, though. It will be much more far-reaching than just higher wages for low-income people.

            There is a corollary to higher wages: somebody's gotta pay them. There are fundamentally three possible outcomes: profits will be down, prices will go up, or employers will go out of business (or combinations of the three).

            Most people seem to assume that profits will go down. But, quite frankly, I don't buy that. Smaller family farms aren't that profitable to begin with, so they will start going out of business. A lowered supply means increased prices, and MORE profits for large-scale industrial farmers. End result: it's the middle class again who pays. I don't have a good idea how to prevent that.

            Meanwhile, we will have to get used to much higher food prices (as well as a number of other items, including ethanol fuel). It will not eat up the gains for low-income families, but affect them.

            Those who are not directly competing with illegal immigrants - and the family farmers I cited above - will see less of an increase in wages, and may actually lose out.

            Personally, I think that is a price worth paying, but we do need to be prepared for people to be very surprised when a loaf of bread is $5 or a Big Mac sells for upwards of $10.

            Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

            by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:47:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sdgeek

              but that only goes to prove that our current living standards are based on the exploitation of the labor of others. For many, who live on lowish wages, it's not clear if they would end up losers (from higher prices) or winners (from higher wages) - but that's in the short term. In the long term, having labor fairly priced can only be good for all workers, because otherwise it's simply underpriced.

              •  Thanks for expressing what I was trying to say (0+ / 0-)

                In so much better words:

                Without a poor underclass, our standard of living would be completely unsustainable.

                Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                by sdgeek on Sun May 20, 2007 at 12:45:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  You may be right... (0+ / 0-)

               ...and I may be crazy. :-)

               But the takeaway from all this is that unfettered free-market capitalism is a flawed system (I didn't say  "worthless"; I said "flawed"), and that a necessary role of government is to patch up these flaws. An economic system that denies hardworking citizens access to health care, housing, and education needs some tinkering, to say the least.
               
               Also, remember that true competition is what makes capitalism work  -- when workers have options to go elsewhere, their employers are then forced to pay market value for them. What we have now, increasingly, is the withering away of competitive markets, and having most industries controlled by monopolies and cartels, sharply reducing the options and levereage of workers (and consumers). Teddy Roosevelt recognized the inherent dangers of this. Could we use someone like him today...  

              "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

              by Buzzer on Sun May 20, 2007 at 04:49:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Several solutions (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Canadian Reader, RunawayRose, marina

        First of all, use the existing law. There are far too few ICE inspectors to follow up on all the suspected employers of illegal immigrants.

        Second, create a rational immigration law. The real reason we have illegal immigration is that our legal immigration system is such a mess. It takes up to three or four years to process the paperwork for the spouse of a US citizen. In some other categories, the wait is 20 to 30 years.

        Make legal immigration a workable option for most people, and you will see illegal immigration disappear.

        Third, calm down. Until 1986, employers didn't have to do any verification at all. Arnold Schwarzenegger was able to find work in the US (according to some news reports, illegally) without ever getting verified.

        So how come the problem has exploded AFTER we supposedly took steps?

        The answer is in my second point: immigration law and practice has seriously deteriorated since the 1980s.

        Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

        by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:11:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If employers didn't verify until 1986 (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, blindyone

          why have I had to provide my Social Security card, photo ID, and (in two cases) my birth certificate, and (often) college transcripts for jobs I have applied for all my life?

          In fact, MY employers have been verifying MY eligibility for employment since my first job as a waitress at Pizza Hut in 1976.

          I don't understand how anyone else has been able to escape it unless they are being paid under the table.

          •  Identification != verification (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader, marina, leckavrea, wa ma

            Until 1986, all this data was just collected for tax purposes, to check your qualifications, and possibly for background checks.

            At the same time, until 1996, Social Security Numbers were given out to foreign nationals who owed US taxes or needed it for other reasons (today, the IRS instead gives out an ITIN for that purpose).

            So NONE of the documents you showed actually did anything to establish employment authorization. Actually, having to show your birth certificates may have been illegal even at the time; it is discriminatory.

            Arnold Scharzenegger came to the USA as a tourist, without work authorization, in the early 1960s. He already had a job prearranged, according to his autobiography. That was illegal - but the employer broke no law in hiring him.

            In 1986, the I-9 was introduced; from that point on, employers had to see specific documents that proved employment eligibility, and employers could get punished for hiring illegal immigrants (and they occasionally actually are).

            Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

            by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:00:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I-9 (Employment Eligibility Verification Form) (0+ / 0-)

            Have you signed an I-9 Form for every job you've had since 1986?

            I think many employers are not aware that this form must be completed and kept on file for EVERY employee. I've worked for my current employer since 2000 and they only had me complete the I-9 last year. I'm not sure what triggered it at that time -- they said they were being audited. I don't know if they had all employees complete the I-9 or just those who were not U.S.-born.

      •  One need not advocate open borders to ... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Canadian Reader, snakelass, grrr, marina, mango

        recognize that there are millions of undocumented immigrants who are here now, who have become part of our national community, and who should be permitted to regularize their status.

        The AFL-CIO is in favor of permitting the status of our existing undocumented immigrants to be regularized, precisely because once that happens, they can no longer be victimized by employers, and will be able to complain about violation of labor and health and safety laws.

        Nobody that I'm aware of, including those who favor much higher levels of legal immigation, is in favor of "open borders," if for no other reason than the need to exclude terrorists and criminals.

        If it were up to me, I would:

        1. Strengthen border security (yes, probably including a fence in those few areas of the border where someone who gets across the border can disappear into a residential area on this side of the border within a few minutes, although not along the vast majority of the border where it's not needed);
        1. Establish a non-punitive procedure to regularize the status of those undocumented immigrants who have been productively employed here for a signficant period of time without significant criminal violations (other than those related to their status as undocumented immigrants); snd
        1. Significantly increase the number of legal visas that can be granted to immigrants from other countries of the Americas, NOT through some guest-worker program, but through visas that will permit these immigrants to get on the path to citizenship if that's their goal.

        I'm completely opposed to making undocumented immigrants return to their native country in order to be readmitted legally.  If they're going to be back, what's the point, other than to penalize them?  And if they've got American citizen children (which many of them do), do we REALLY want to penalize those children through actions for which they're not at fault?  For the life of me, I can't understand the purpose of this procedure.

        And I'm also opposed to a guest worker program where people could come here to work temporarily, but would have to return to their native country.  That approach may be fine for Europeans who want to preserve their "Frenchness, or Germanness, or Italianness," but what possible purpose does such a program serve in a country that is, overwhelmingly, populated by the descendants of immigrants?  Well, there are SOME purposes:  They can be freely victimized by unscrupulous employers, they won't try to form or join a union, and they'll never be able to become citizens and vote.  But I can't think of a single LEGITIMATE purpose for such a program.

        "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

        by leevank on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:48:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have an idea (0+ / 0-)

        Force employers to pay everyone a living wage.  That'll keep them from "unknowingly" or "accidentally" hiring illigal immigrants.

        BTW, last time I was hired, I had to proved like 3 types of identification priving I was allowed to work, including a SSN.

        How is a database of elidgible workers going to change anything, besides making every Juan Suarez and Mohammed Hussein in America suddlenly unhirable?

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire

        by poemless on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:03:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the point is since the (0+ / 0-)

          illegals work off the books, and are unaccounted, any "living wage" laws would be quite useless.  If anything, that would further drive the employers to hire illegals.

          And if the datbase makes illegals unhirable that is a good thing because then everyone they hire will be "on the books" and it would make it nearly impossible to hire illegals and pay them less.

        •  A couple things (0+ / 0-)

          Force employers to pay everyone a living wage.  That'll keep them from "unknowingly" or "accidentally" hiring illigal immigrants.

          The NY Times reported a couple of weeks ago that during the recent construction boom, illegal roofers were paid the same as Americans, $25 to $35/hour.

          BTW, last time I was hired, I had to proved like 3 types of identification priving I was allowed to work, including a SSN.

          How is a database of elidgible workers going to change anything, besides making every Juan Suarez and Mohammed Hussein in America suddlenly unhirable?

          In a very critical way - that was what my diary was all about, actually: the US government can "accidentally" delete you from the database even when you are a US citizen.

          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:57:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  landscaper and maid illegals?? (3+ / 0-)

      where have you BEEN the last 10 years?

      Try Construction work, Sales, City work crews, Mechanic, Auto body, Dental, Medical, Pharmacy staff, Plumbing, Welding, Electrical, etc...

      and when you come from a country that pays 10$ a DAY, to a country with an open border and easily forged i.d., why, the EMPLOYER possibilities are limitless.......

    •  What about the quasi-slave state (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grrr

      we've slowly turned into?  We don't accept slave labor, and we shouldn't accept paying people less than a living wage, either.  They aren't making anything close to a "livelihood."

      IMHO we simply can't employ every poor person on the planet.  That requires us to make a choice--who do we allow to work and who do we not?  Are non-nationals on the same level as nationals?  If not, then we MUST have some reliable way of determining who is and who is not.

      I'm not saying this bill is the answer, but I don't think you can get around this.

      Never give up! Never surrender!

      by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:31:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. This Sums It Up In One Sentence (5+ / 0-)

      In our drive to drive away all the 'dangerous' landscaper and maid illegals, we are subjecting ourself to big brother at its worst.

      That's the classic authoritarian strategy.

      Create a crisis, then "solve" the problem by giving yourself more power.

  •  In the old Soviet Bloc that's exactly what (25+ / 0-)

    happened.

    Everyone was required to have a a little book containing their employment record.  Without that book, and a current government endorsement, one could not be hired for any but the most menial jobs.

    The government also issued internal passports, without which, one couldn't book travel or get an apartment in another city.

    Political dissidents had their work books and internal passports taken away.

    Your fear isn't tinfoil.  It's based in historical precedent.  The Bush=Cheney Administration have indeed been moving us "Back in the USSR.

    You don't know how lucky you are . . ."

  •  This Bill reminds me (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leveymg, roses, marina, blueoasis

    of two things:  1984 & Children of Men  1984....well that's obvious and the other...shows EXACTLY what this bill could possibly do to our country.

    They have forgotten that this country was founded by IMMIGRANTS!!!!!

    Those who forget the past is doomed to repeat it

  •  as per your statement... (5+ / 0-)

    Am I in tinfoil territory here? Or is the situation so bad that such a thing is even thinkable?

    Not only is it thinkable, and requires no tin-foil, if Bushco can do it, they will....

    LOOK OUT! Here comes the pendulum!!

    by Rumarhazzit on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:01:21 AM PDT

  •  The left and immigration (9+ / 0-)

    It's an interesting situation.  The left wants to respect the dignity and privacy of workers, but on the other hand the left also wants to protect low wage and mid-wage workers.  Add that problem to the fact that the left also is anti-racism, and we've got an issue that is difficult for the left to deal with.

    I think the most promising way is to deal with it as an employer problem.  Employers need to be made to pay for the entire amount they would have "saved" if they'd paid prevailing wages plus a massive fine.  The businesses need to learn that it doesn't pay to behave the way they are.

    I regard the right to embarrass each other one of the cherished parts of American democracy. -Barney Frank

    by otto on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:04:42 AM PDT

    •  Depends on how you define the "left" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike Erwin, marina

      As a lifelong leftist, I don't share much ideologically with those who have anti-immigrant sentiments or who advocate protectionism.

      To me, "left" means the historic effort to move the working class beyond narrow craft-union ideology -- what Lenin called economism -- toward antiracism, class consciousness, and internationalism.

      •  Globalism? (0+ / 0-)

        It sounds more like you're defining some kind of globalism.  Would that be accurate?  

        I regard the right to embarrass each other one of the cherished parts of American democracy. -Barney Frank

        by otto on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:28:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps you should emigrate to Mexico (9+ / 0-)

        or another third-world state of your choosing?  I am an American citizen, for better or worse, and while I will go to great ends to help others, I will not do so at the expense of my job, my home, or my security.  

        I value the rich tradition of immigration America has been built on, and I strongly treasure diversity of culture, sexuality and religion.  

        I resent being accused of racism or xenophobia on the grounds that I want to protect my economic interests.    I also resent having my progressive beliefs called into question because I lean towards economic populism.  I value labor and do not believe repeated mass-amnesty (or whatever it will be called) is doing any good for Labor in this country.  

        One reason for border control is so that nations maintain economic vitality.  This is evident throughout history.  Was America founded on theft?  Of course it was and I am ashamed of that fact.   I also wasn't alive back then to have any say-so.  And I refuse to be held accountable for something that happened hundreds of years ago.  I would rather live in today, and work to make the future a better place for all Americans (especially Native Americans).  We cannot do that by assuming the role of Mexico's welfare state.  

        I prefer we address the problems which cause so many to migrate (mostly illegally) to America in the first place.  Unfortunately few people on the left or right even think about that.  And in twenty years we'll have another 12 million poor Mexican's to deal with.  Mexico is the 13th wealthiest nation in the world.  There is more than enough money to create a strong working class there.  

        Until America addresses Mexico's corruption  politically, and demands change, our illegal immigration problem won't stop.  

        •  I'm not making a personal assumption (6+ / 0-)

          I didn't call anyone racist.

          I agree with you that Mexico's corruption needs to be taken care of.

          You've done an excellent job of pointing out the exact same things that I pointed out, only your take was a little more emotional than mine.

          I resent being accused of racism or xenophobia on the grounds that I want to protect my economic interests.    I also resent having my progressive beliefs called into question because I lean towards economic populism.  I value labor and do not believe repeated mass-amnesty (or whatever it will be called) is doing any good for Labor in this country.  

          The statement you make is exactly what I was talking about.  The left puts a higher value on the people who are the labor, and  we have a conscious awareness of the racism involved in the issue. The left understands that it is a complicated topic that cannot be dealt with in a simple "deport them all"  manner.  Because the left values labor, they have a general understanding of the fact that more labor is equal to lower pay for those people who are at the bottom of the labor pool.  

          Immigration is a difficult topic for everyone, but it is especially difficult for the left to develop policy around the issue.  It's difficult for the reasons I stated above.  

          I regard the right to embarrass each other one of the cherished parts of American democracy. -Barney Frank

          by otto on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:21:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Let me paraphrase a famous leftist... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mike Erwin

          "Labor in the white skin can never be free as long as labor in the black skin brown skin is branded."

          And branding is what you are talking about. There is nothing progressive in that.

  •  I've always had my eligibility verified (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brooke In Seattle

    every time I've sought a job in America.

    Every single time, there has been a piece of paper which I've had to fill out, oathing that I am eligible for work.

    What is different about the new bill?

    •  Difference is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4Freedom

      now, employers accept your piece of paper and file it without having to verify it.

      •  My first Social Security Card (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DSPS owl

        had "NOT ELIGIBLE FOR WORK" printed on it in big letters.

        Clearly the SSN database already knows who is eligible for work and who isn't.  What's the diff between me showing a potential employer a Social Security Card that says "Not Eligible For Work", versus him checking a database to find out that my SSN isn't valid for work?

        I get the impression that, as good liberals, we are naturally abhorring the concept of any Gubmint database, but the reality on the ground is that this national database of work-valid SSNs has been there and weeding out the work eligible from the work ineligible at least since 1994, when I first entered the system, and I'll wager some considerable years before I graced these shores.

      •  Actually, there is a verification process. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AmericanRiverCanyon, Allogenes

        You have to produce for an employer's inspection the following:

        (1) a passport - which verifies identity AND citizenship; or

        (2) a photo ID like a drivers license which proves identity and a birth certificate or other proof of citizenship.

        Recently, in the great State of Colorado, my 72 year old mom, who never had a terroristic thought in her life (except maybe toward my college boyfriend whom she hated) was repeatedly denied a Driver's License because Colorado rejected all driver's licenses and many birth certificates from Texas as proof of identity. Texas has 'validity issues' you see.

        A year before I had walked in with a valid passport and Texas Driver's License, paid a fee, and got my driver's license.

        But things have changed. Oh, how they have changed.

        In addition, the great State of Colorado has started rejecting a United States Passport as a valid form of identification. Why? "Oh, you can just go in with a friend who'll swear who you are and they'll give you a passport." I suppose that could happen in an extremely rare instance if all records were wiped out.

        She had to get a state certified birth certificate, and provide two color copies, a copy of her marriage license (name change) (we fortunately had the original due to my late father's packratness), a copy of our mortgage deed and some utility bills proving residence, plus that iffy old passport and iffy TX drivers license that had to be 'bolstered' by other documentation as listed.

        In my opinion, identification issues are getting far more difficult and a national system would ease up a lot of these frustrations. But also subject to abuse. Not that we're not already getting abused - see Colorado, supra.

        •  Tancredo country (3+ / 0-)

          I'm sure that has something to do with it.

          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:07:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The same thing happened (4+ / 0-)

          to landed, salt-of-the-earth farmers I know. They had to drive 40 miles one way to a drivers' license bureau to be told their previous ID wasn't enough, they need a birth certificate.

          Do the people making such rules realize how difficult it can be just to get a birth certificate? (Yes, I know, they just don't give a damn.) I have been with people who had to call out of state for a birth certificate and were told that they had to show up in person to get a certified copy. These were poor people a thousand miles away from the courthouse.

          This makes voter registration, proof of citizenship, even driving, so much more difficult. Then imagine if you are elderly or disabled or poor.

    •  The database (11+ / 0-)

      So far, you just filled out the I-9. If the government lost their copy of your birth certificate, or their copy of your passport application, no big deal. Worst case, the employer gets audited, your I-9 gets flagged, they ask you to produce your birth certificate or passport or whatever.

      Under the new system, the employer checks a central database. If your record gets accidentally (or not so accidentally) deleted, the employer can't even hire you, and you are off on a wild goose chase tring to get the record corrected.

      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:17:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snakelass, marina, Allogenes

      Under the new bill your employer will be required to check a national database to make sure that your SSN is valid.  There are tons of undocumented workers who obtain false social security cards.  Those people will have to find another way to work.

      The irony to me is that when someone uses a false SSN to get work, their employer will withhold income and social security taxes for them, which they will never collect.  If undocumented workers are forced to work under the table, no taxes will be paid at all.  

      •  Perhaps it is simply that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oscarsmom

        as an immigrant myself, I am already in a million American databases and one more won't make a difference!

        So here's a question for you.  Philosophically, what's the difference between the sort of employment-related databases we already happily maintain, and many even strive to get onto -- things like databases of who is allowed to work as a doctor, who is allowed to work as a lawyer, and so on -- versus this new database of who is allowed to work as [fill in the blank]?

        •  The fact that you can't make money (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snakelass, Mike Erwin, 4Freedom

          unless you are in that database.

          I'm an immigrant myself. There are other databases that concern me, but with this one, the government can take away your livelihood.

          Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

          by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:33:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I gotta say (0+ / 0-)

            I have no problem with someone being unable to make money if they're not gonna pay any taxes, which they aren't, are they, if they've never bothered to get an SSN!

            I suppose my next question for you would be, why are you concerned about someone losing their livelihood when they are not legally entitled to take that livelihood from America in the first place?  (Leaving aside, for now, the entirely separate issue of mistakes in the database, and the issue of people who are legally entitled to work somehow not being in the database properly and having to jump through all the hoops to get that fixed.)  

            Aside problems like that, and getting down to my actual question -- if a database of work-valid SSNs is not something you can approve of, what system would you approve of whereby we are enabled to hold employers' feet to the fire and ensure that they are forced to hire only legal immigrants?

            •  I was talking about US citizens! (7+ / 0-)

              This database needs to include all 300 million or so US citizens and legal residents. What if somebody just forgets to add Loquatrix to the database?

              A couple more points (and, by the way, I'm also an immigrant myself, now a citizen).

              As for what I suggest: first, fix the legal immigration system. We had a workable system until the 1970s, and never needed a major employment verification system. The main reason we have illegal immigration in the first place is that legal immigration is unavailable for most people, and takes decades for those who are eligible (mine, EB-2 employment based, took 7 years, and today would probably take longer).

              When people are allowed to come legally, they won't take the illegal route.

              Second, use the existing system. There are far too few ICE inspectors to audit sufficient I-9s.

              I have no problem with someone being unable to make money if they're not gonna pay any taxes, which they aren't, are they, if they've never bothered to get an SSN!

              Most illegal immigrants do pay taxes; it's a consistent myth that they don't. They may pay it on someone else's SSN, of course.

              Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

              by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:02:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Re: adding people to database. (0+ / 0-)

                What if somebody just forgets to add Loquatrix to the database?

                How can they forget to add someone to a database she's already in?  Aren't we talking about the already extant database of Social Security Numbers?

                (I don't disagree with any of your points about fixing existing systems, by the way.  I'm just trying to clarify, for my own edification, why I, as a progressive, ought to object to the national database of work-valid SSNs.  I guess I thought that's what the SSN database already IS -- if interested, see my comment upthread about my first SSN card, which said NOT ELIGIBLE FOR WORK on it, which seems, to me, to be already doing exactly what this new national database hopes to accomplish, i.e. telling employers whom they should and should not hire.  And if the SSN database already produces statements like NOT ELIGIBLE FOR WORK on Social Security Cards, what new thing is this new database going to do that you object to?)

                And then to your comment that most illegal immigrants do pay taxes; how on earth is anyone maintaining records on that??

                •  Easy (5+ / 0-)

                  How can they forget to add someone to a database she's already in?  Aren't we talking about the already extant database of Social Security Numbers?

                  First of all, this wouldn't be the existing database. It would, at the very least, be a copy of it - and it is a notoriously difficult problem to keep two databases in sync (have you ever synced your Palm to Outlook? Did it ever go flawlessly).

                  The second, and more insidious, problem is that I suspected that this database could also be used to intentionally delete somebody. Which is where my tinfoil comment came from in the original diary. But given that we already have a no-fly list, I do consider this a distinct possibility.

                  Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                  by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:25:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yeah, I'm just awakening to (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    marina, Allogenes

                    the tin-foil side of things and the potential for malicious intent (can be a little naive sometimes!).  Like I proffer below, that's a problem with the people running the database, though, not the database itself.

                    And of course with these clowns in office, you know it would be a clown running the database and trying to port it over into the new one, so I'm totally on board with your concerns about it.

                    It's just that, in priciple, the database itself doesn't seem to strike me as the problem.  The problem seems to be the native sensitivity of the information contained in the database, and the kind of people who would be in charge of keeping that information safe.

                    It's too bad, isn't it, that we are all so sickened by BushCo that our trust in Gubmint systems has been so completely trashed, and we simply trust none of our Fellow Americans to do anything properly any more.

                    •  Database vs. people running it (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mike Erwin, marina, 4Freedom, Allogenes

                      You do make a valid point. It would indeed be the people running it.

                      However, in effect, there is no real difference. Even if we had a totally trustworthy government, I would still be opposed to the database because there is no guarantee we will always have it.

                      It is basically the same idea that our Constitutional system of checks and balances is built on: don't ever create something that CAN be abused, because sooner or later, it WILL be abused.

                      It's just that, in this case, we happen to have a government who illustrates this last point particularly well.

                      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:42:27 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  This government is an object lesson in limiting (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        marina, CharlieHipHop

                        governmental power, especially that of the executive.

                        The executive branch has abused Constitutional powers already available to it, and has then gone on to assert, via 750+ presidential signing statements, that it will flex the Constitution to its will.

                        Any enhanced oversight enacted by this government I adamantly oppose. The administration is already beyond untrustworthy, it is treasonous.

                        New national holiday: Freedom Day - January 20th, 2009

                        by 4Freedom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:06:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Who will be managing the database? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Allogenes

                        Is this something else that will be privatized, with no regulation, so that our information is up for grabs by anyone with the dollars to pay for it, like a mailing list?

                        For instance, the proposed NAIS database (National Animal Identification System) is supposed to be managed by The National Cattlemen's Beef Association, a private interest group. Will this information be available to anyone who can pay for it, since it's privately managed?

                        Who will be handling our labor eligibility information, and at what price?

                    •  Why give those people a tool? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mike Erwin

                      ...that's a problem with the people running the database, though, not the database itself.

                      Right.  So why give those people the opportunity to deny their "enemies" a right to make a living?  That's like putting a gun in the hands of someone who might use it to kill someone.  Sure, it's not the gun's fault.

                      Why can't people see where this is headed?  The more tools of control we proffer, the more controlled we will be.  

                      Go ahead and advocate for this database.  Just don't call yourself a liberty-loving American.

                      "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace." - Jimi Hendrix

                      by CharlieHipHop on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:30:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Alright, keep yer wig on! (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm not advocating for it, so much as trying to edify myself as to what the range of objections is.

                        (P.S.  It's naughty of me, and Uncle Sam would not be pleased, but I actually tend to think of myself as a liberty-loving Brit, still.)

                •  Illegal immigrants and taxes (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  marina, 4Freedom, blue vertigo, Allogenes

                  And then to your comment that most illegal immigrants do pay taxes; how on earth is anyone maintaining records on that??

                  Now that's an entirely different question. Paying taxes is one thing, maintaining records on taxes paid is another.

                  That said, the NY Times had an article a couple years ago about Social Security taxes. Apparently, about $7 Billion of FICA taxes are sent to the SSA with invalid Social Security numbers. They assume that the vast majority of that comes from illegal immigrants.

                  Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                  by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:32:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Interesting article, thanks for (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Allogenes

                    the pointer!

                    In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

                    Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

                    "Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

                    •  There's another story though (5+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Loquatrix, marina, sdgeek, oscarsmom, Allogenes

                      I don't have a link, because I saw this on TV, but recently on one of the Seattle stations there was a story about a woman who got in trouble with the IRS because she was having money paid in to her SS account by someone in Texas using her SSN, and she didn't declare the money on her income tax form -- because she didn't know it was there.

                      Of course, she was living in WA state and had never even been to Texas, but explain yourself to the IRS as best you can.

                      The story went on to tell of several hundred thousand SSNs that are receiving duplicate payments. The problem is not only that the undocumented workers paying into that account won't be able to access the money in his or her retirement, the person whose account is receiving the money is going to get in trouble on the other end for not ever declaring the taxable income.

                      The woman mentioned in the first part of the story now has her accounts frozen, and her SS account shows that she has paid in ZERO over the 30 years she was working, and now, as she approaches retirement age, she can't claim her Social Security at all.

                      Apparently, the burden of proof is all on her -- not on the undocumented person who put money in her account all those years.

                      I'm sure there will be more such stories as the baby boomers who plan to access the SS system try to find out about their accounts. What about those glitches in the system?

                  •  I work in financial services (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    marina, Brooke In Seattle, BobOak

                    wherein I access creditor-created records, and CBRs, and I see multiple people using the same SSN a lot.

                    Which makes me wonder: does the real Jane Doe, who had several people use her SS# due to identity theft or something like that, get all those social security benefits that the fake Jane Does earned?

                    Anyone know?

                    •  more (5+ / 0-)

                      does the real Jane Doe have tax responsibility for all of those using her #SS and can she still get a job, a home mortage?  

                      This is a very very serious crime and this is one thing that is constantly being downplayed...

                      anyone who thinks this isn't a major crime and problem needs to get their #SS stolen and see the resulting disaster it creates in their lives.

                      http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:15:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  SSNs will be useless (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      marina

                      fairly soon, due to the rampant identity theft.

                      Quite frankly, I think good riddance, too! There should not BE a national identification system, no matter what the number is based on - even less a system based on something as obscure as an account number to a retirement account.

                      Wired Magazine listed creation of the Social Security Number the #1 worst privacy debacle in US history, ahead of the NSA phone tapping.

                      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

                      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:32:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Many are children (0+ / 0-)

                      ...and know nothing about it until they turn 18 and try to apply for a credit card!

                      It's a problem, for sure!

                      Never give up! Never surrender!

                      by oscarsmom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:01:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  you're looking at it the wrong way around (6+ / 0-)

              I didn't see your immigration status.  What if someone decided you shouldn't be able to work in the U.S., and the only thing they had to do was delete your record in one database?  If that doesn't scare you, you're not thinking clearly.

              The no-fly list is the best precedence we have, it's obvious that people are abusing that to screw with their political enemies.

              •  Oh I see! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                marina

                We're worried that someone will maliciously (or punitively, or politically, or whatever) delete a valid worker from the database.  Well, that certainly rings true in these times.

                Then the question becomes, is the problem with the database, or the people operating and guarding it?  I tend not to like being in databases as a matter of principle, but let's be completely clear that the SSN database is here, and it's here to stay, and we're all already in it, and it's already being used to weed out the work-eligible from the work-ineligible.

                On that basis, given that we already have a functioning database that deals in work eligibility, and it is not going away, to me the problem then becomes one of guarding the integrity of data.  Of course, then you have the problem of finding honest and competent Americans who can run a database honestly and competently, which has shown itself to be somewhat of a problem in the last six years!

                Best just hand over all the workings of this country to us honest and competent immigrants.  ;)

  •  Check the (5+ / 0-)

    OFAC Tag for other diaries in a similar vein. Here is a report  (pdf) on how OFAC is preventing people from getting mortgages, jobs; buying cars, health insurance, exercise equipment, you name it. Basically OFAC is being used to nullify one's credit record if one is unfortunate enough to share a name, or part of a name with those who are on the list, which includes: Patricia, Gonzales, Lopez, Muhammad Ali, Lucas, Gibson, Hussein, etc.

    Private businesses and lenders are being coerced into blacklisting people at the threat of being hounded by the DHS.

  •  It extends to "No Money" as well . . . (9+ / 0-)

    As America increasingly moves to a "cashless society" where all you have to do is wave your wristwatch or press your thumb down to spend money, you have a system where the right to do so -- to spend money -- can also be turned off.

    Instantly, everywhere.

    The ultimate sanction on any member of a functioning civil society is to be suddenly, irrevocably, and fatally forbidden to buy, sell, travel, own anything.

    There will always be an underground economy, a black market and bartering economy, and that is where you will find yourself if you do not live by the rules set from on high.

    This is the world our two political parties are creating for our children and grandchildren.

    "The rule of the wise must be absolute . . . rulers ought not to be responsible to the unwise subjects." ~ Professor Leo Strauss

    by antifa on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:11:19 AM PDT

    •  The Handmaid's Tale (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      antifa, marina, lorzie, oscarsmom

      Exactly what happened to the protagonist in Margaret Atwood's classic novel, forcing her into involuntary servitude as a baby maker.

      It was chilling when I first read it 20 years ago. Even more so now.

      "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

      by annan on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:09:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  sounds like part of bush's data banks on steroids (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    paige, marina, Hens Teeth, Chacounne

    how many data banks have we read about during these awful bush years?

    I imagine Bush will use similar to the ATS system that he has used for 4 years to find "preemptive law violators" from American and foreign travelers.  Irrelevant data, such as meals ordered, determine a risk assessment score of who may be "likely to break US law" by determining the "threat posed by a person" and to ensure compliance with "all applicable US laws."

    Even if this risk assessment were legitimate, it is used for purposes beyond safety in travel.

    This risk assessment score becomes part of your record but you have no ability to know or challenge the score. Faulty risk assessments may "cost innocent people jobs in shipping or travel, government contracts, licenses or other benefits" because the ATS data "may be shared with state, local and foreign governments for use in hiring decisions and in granting licenses, security clearances, contracts or other benefits. In some cases, the data may be shared with courts, Congress and even private contractors."
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    All of this violates the federal privacy laws which mandate that we are informed what records the government collects on us, and be provided a procedure to correct wrong information.

  •  CNN just covered some aspects of this (5+ / 0-)

    their test case was someone who immigrated to the U.S. with her parents as a child and who has been a U.S. citizen for a long time. She was applying to work for a Congressional committee. She was flagged. The process to remove the flag sounded a bit convoluted. Now, she has the education, the time, and a motivated employer, etc. to deal with the "system." Imagine an employer who isn't motivated, an potential employee without a lot of education or ready access to the local passport, Social Security office, etc. The flagged potential employee would be passed over for the job. Heck they might not even know why they'd been passed over for the job

  •  Thom Hartman says the AMC - movie theatres (4+ / 0-)

    have no problem with checking legal status of applicants. AMC verifies the social security number with name of the applicant with our Social Security Department.

    We have heard stories of American companies recruiting employees in Mexico and other countries. These stories should be investigated and the companies should be prevented from doing this.

    Too, I don't believe "They do the jobs that Americans won't do."

  •  I think you're on to something (0+ / 0-)

    Mexico's poor deserve to work, no matter what.  This insidious legislation will deny access to American jobs, which is racism pure and simple.   How dare the United States Congress attempt to deny jobs to illegal immigrants.   Americans have too much money, it is the responsibility of the American government to sell out as many American workers as possible, so that the playing field is leveled across the globe.  

    Besides, American corporations will be very displeased if this legislation is passed.  

    But only for a little while, since none of the existing employment laws are enforced.  They know better.  They know Congress has their back.  

  •  there are many no-work lists (14+ / 0-)

    Some employers even do credit checks now, so you have to worry about that being wrong too.  The same is true for apartments, where one landlord getting pissed off at you can make you blacklisted (the SJ Mercury, several years ago, profiled a middle class family living in a homeless shelter in San Jose because they couldn't get an apartment, due to a relatively minor dispute with their previous landlord).

    As the computer systems become more sophisticated and standardized, and therefore more integrated, we may develop a large portion of our population who are essentially forced off the books, living like illegal aliens in their own country.

    I honestly don't think that's far fetched at this point.

    •  PBS FRONTLINE on wiretapping (6+ / 0-)

      I watched this show and how come NO ONE seemed to be upset that private corporations had databases filled with every move we make?

      I also noticed that the hardware being used by AT&T/NSA to datamine the Internet traffic is made by a company that offshore outsources to India.

      Now, ok, private companies can profile us down to whether we drink coffee with milk at 8:43pm, 1 cup or 2 and it's no problem that spying technology is being made offshore to use on Americans...

      I mean come on, yes the government can put you in jail by the private companies can in effect put you in worse straights by denying you food, clothing, shelter and work.  

      This is not ok.

      http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

      by BobOak on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:22:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BobOak

        I saw that program too.  They talked about the databases the government can draw from and my first thought was, "The government violating my privacy is a bad thing.  But what are all these private companies doing with my information anyhow?"

        Of course, it's for marketing.  Our privacy is violated because some idiot wants to sell us something.  

      •  And to make matters worse (0+ / 0-)

        it is then legal for the government to purchase exactly the data from private entities that they aren't allowed to collect themselves.

        Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

        by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:05:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I guess that is why I don't worry about a tamper (0+ / 0-)

      proof ID so much. I figure that my privacy disappeared   a long time ago. If you apply to work for a temp agency, you have to sign your rights away for the shittiest jobs. They get all your personal ID and you give them permission to do background and credit checks. Also, having worked as a classroom teacher and sub in a couple of districts, my fingerprints are in various databases already.

      "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

      by blindyone on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:05:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wouldn't be the first time (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, marina, LNK, tallmom, Hens Teeth

    the government used ethnic rivalries within the working class to screw the class as a whole.

    Historically, racism has been used to create a subclass of low-wage and chronically unemployed workers.

    The purpose of whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment is to push wages of immigrants (and all Latinos, actually) down, which in turn depresses wages generally.

    The opportunity to create an instrument that will be enormously effective at repressing labor and peace acitivists? That's just icing on the cake.

  •  I think you're right on (8+ / 0-)

    people are already being denied employment after electronic checks of credit, police records, etc.  I remember an MSNBC story about a woman who's identity was stolen and the thief used her driver's license number or actual license after getting arrested.  The innocent woman got a record and was denied employment due to it.

    I think we ought to look seriously at companies like Choicepoint, et al., and restrict their ability to report on poeple until we're sure their information can be accurate.

    Blogatha! The political, the personal. Not necessarily in that order.

    by ksh01 on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:25:30 AM PDT

  •  Bush and the GOP cut the Safety Net (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lurker123, tallmom

    who works for the safety net?

    The whole system have been Katrina'd

    Who worked in all those social service agencies that were defunded and run out of business? Who worked in the mental health facilities and the Public health facilities with the poor?

    Progressives and Liberals, far more than our compassionate conservative friends.

    When they kill the safety net, they kill progressive jobs as well.

    It's a 2-fer.

    A no-work list makes perfect sense.

  •  welcome to the Soviet Union (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi9, lurker123, marina

    Next step is to make unemployment illegal.  So then, after you get black-listed, then you get arrested.  But don't worry, you already don't have a right to your day in court anymore.  So, from there, if you get tortured and treated worse than an animal, who gives a fuck?  At least you helped some right-wingers get there yayas out.

    In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

    by yet another liberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:36:38 AM PDT

    •  It is already illegal to be homeless (7+ / 0-)

      In some cities you can actually be arrested for being homeless. We have lost all moral compass here. We are becoming worse than what the USSR was.

      "Those who will give up freedom for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

      by vista2020 on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:57:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have a homeless brother who is an itinerant (5+ / 0-)

        minister. He is homeless by choice. He believes he is living his life in imitation of Christ.

        After living for a stint under the boardwalk in San Diego and practicing his ministry by giving away religious books, he was cited into court by police. He appeared and was fined, which he couldn't pay.

        He was then the subject of a manhunt that included police, dogs and a police helicopter. These resources were only diverted from this harmless, homeless man when they were called off to attend to a homicide.

        The US moral compass zeros in on corporate profits, but does not profit the many Americans and illegal workers who are as helpless and harmless as my brother.

        New national holiday: Freedom Day - January 20th, 2009

        by 4Freedom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:18:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And in some towns, it's illegal to feed them (6+ / 0-)

          Disgusting. What an inhuman system we live in. Some enjoy their 60" television sets, and some live under bridges, subject to police harassment if not arrest, for being indigent.

        •  4Freedom, OT, about your brother and Jesus (0+ / 0-)

          I thought Jesus was never homeless so much as he was itinerant and sheltered by generous followers.

          They system cannot cope with exceptions to the rule, so any experiment in voluntary homelessness out of Christian spirit should probably only be undertaken with the system's blessings and written permission. Or, at least, make sure first that the local police know and understand who one is and what one is doing.

          If you've ever had to deal with some of the actual homeless......Well, we've had a few in my neighborhood who were assaulting people, pushing them into traffic, etc.

          •  I have dealt with and worked with some of the (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mike Erwin, LNK, AmericanRiverCanyon

            homeless, and recognize, as with my brother, there is a mental health component to many homeless people.

            My brother does associate with a denomination, and lives on freewill offerings. I have helped to assure that he has enough money for food. He does identify himself to a local congregation and the police. His San Diego experience was the result of a citywide crackdown on the homeless as a political move.

            But I also know that there are many homeless people as gentle and harmless as my brother. Some are homeless by default because of finances, some because of mental health problems, and a few, like my brother, who may have some mental health issues, but who believe in their way of life.

            My brother only wants to possess what he can carry on his back. He is totally at odds with this materialistic culture, and wants to show people that they can live by faith alone, as he does. He has made some remarkable conversions to Christianity, inspired a few to become ministers of a more conventional sort, and kept hundreds of young people off drugs by reading the bible with them and discussion Christian options to their way of life.

            This society has become very materialistic and conformist. My brother's way of life is completely at odds with convention, but I know him to be both harmless and very caring. He has my love and respect.

            New national holiday: Freedom Day - January 20th, 2009

            by 4Freedom on Sat May 19, 2007 at 03:43:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  vagrant isn't same as homeless (0+ / 0-)

        and few of either are well-enough put together.

        The USSR routinely detained by force (and fed psychoactive drugs to) just plain critics and dissidents, in addition to maladjusted, alcoholics, mentally ill. Similarly, homosexuals.

  •  It's all the same fuckin' list. (10+ / 0-)

    Don't ever get side ways with credit "score keepers", either.  Employeers, renters and, especially, lenders run the world from that data base.  Who regulates the "score keepers"?

  •  Well. who's gonna fill the immigrant prisons? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mango

    There's profit to be made!

    "You can't be neutral on a moving train." - Howard Zinn

    by bigchin on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:05:06 AM PDT

  •  This is not tinfoil hat thinking . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    when you look at the directives of the New World Order. It fits right in with everything else going on.

    "Those who will give up freedom for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

    by vista2020 on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:49:33 AM PDT

  •  Blacklisting more like Shunning (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, sdgeek

    SDGEEK,you have revealed the source of the power that has scared the people for a long time in this country.
     Most know but will not say or come the aid of someone politically pursecuted because they will be next.
    All it takes is a letter to a politician,especially if correct, then your life is over. You will never work in this country again or have any rights.
    Whispering campaigns start in your workplace by the self righteous bastards,you are abandoned, the profit is more important,others look out for their own survival and either you leave,retire or opt out.
     Any other job taken anywhere in the counrty eventually becomes the same.
     Try to sell your home with a realtor,who breaks the contract, request a hearing, invite the wrath of the system, state police start harrassing for no reason and treated like a criminal and never prevously arrested,with your character destroyed you no longer are tolerated as being honest or trustworthy.
     One coincidence after another of mistaken issues like forfeiture of a lease for no apparent reason.
     All the while the others just watch in private sympathy too scared to help.
     Jesslen Rasack has my sympathy for now she knows how it really is for the few remaining honest americans.

  •  The other issue at (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina

    play here is the trade agreements  made with Mexico, NAFTA was sold as a way to lift all workers up.If we continue to allow unfettered free trade, cheap labor then where or what are these people going to do? The way I see it we, anyone that works loses. I do agree that freaking out about 'illegal aleins' is misplaced and racist. There are other ways of dealing with this then fences, cards and generally treating other humans, and our neighbors, as enemies, threats or less then human.

    This problem is deeper then just losing jobs or 'security'. The immigrants and the 'legal' workers have a lot in common and a common foe, which is the 'ownership society' that runs us all. Bill Maher said last night we ought to thank people who work for us not fine them 5000$ and say fuck you.    

    "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

    by shaharazade on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:56:54 AM PDT

  •  If The Data Is Collected (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    canyonrat, marina, BobOak, Hens Teeth

    Some presidential administration in the future will figure out how to abuse it.

    Middle Class Mother-F!cking Warrior

    by bink on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:08:53 PM PDT

  •  There's Always Been One. Wait Till You're Over 45 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FishOutofWater

    nt

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:08:14 PM PDT

  •  Love that immigration bill n/t (0+ / 0-)

    What do you mean I can't kick the ceiling? I'm dancing, dummy. -8.88 -5.08

    by SecondComing on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:06:24 PM PDT

  •  The no-fly list... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike Erwin

    plus the changes in the passport requirements plus "the fence" will keep you inside the country when the time comes for them to start rounding people up.  A no-work listing plus the destruction of unions plus the bankruptcy changes should keep the non-leisure class cowed into doing whatever they need to.  But remember, if the long-term goal is Absolute Power over every aspect of your life... they don't want you working under the table and they want to be able to know where to round you up.  So, no, a no-work list, while heinous, is not in the fascists' best interests, or, at least, I fail to see how it's in their best interests.

    Now.

    Getting rid of cash.  That strikes me as absolutely in their best interests.  Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't announced a time frame for the elimination of currency.  

    You can be as free as you want, so long as Republicans control birth, death, sex and marriage. And whose vote counts.

    by ultrageek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:08:13 PM PDT

    •  getting rid of cash (0+ / 0-)

      Getting rid of cash.  That strikes me as absolutely in their best interests.  Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't announced a time frame for the elimination of currency.  

      But then how would Republicans collect their little bribes?  (The big ones can be paid by check into the campaign fund.)

  •  Other forms of "no-work" lists (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike Erwin, Spoonfulofsugar

    Anyone who files a complaint or lawsuit against an employer, people with Workers' Compensation cases, and the like.....these have all been subject to discrimination in hiring because of it.

  •  How to Protect Yourself, BTW (0+ / 0-)

    "Always keep up a good reputation because you never know when you will meet people again."

    Even without a government database, if you ever want to protect your own ability to get a job....it's never too soon to be very careful to protect your own reputation.

    Never write anything you wouldn't want read in court or posted on the Internet....and esp. those drunken and/or seductive videos.

    I'll give you an example. A certain person wrote a letter to the editor a few years ago which generated a flurry of replies from people involved in what the certain person had written about. That certain person was shown to be seriously mistaken and not justified in complaining. It leaves a bad impression and it is still in cyberspace.

    Another example: I was on the verge of hiring someone when I phoned them at home. The outgoing message was totally inappropriate (addressed with great hostility to a jealous romantic involvement).

    •  But these are legitimate (0+ / 0-)

      All the examples (and I agree with them) you cite are related to the employer deciding that the employee is not a good fit for the job. That's fundamentally legitimate.

      This database is about the government, though.

      By simply hitting the Delete key, the government could then prevent any US citizen from getting hired in ANY job.

      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:17:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another general safeguard (0+ / 0-)

    Participate in good groups. Church, school, charitable service organization...even a marching band, veterans' group......and make friends with your local officials.

    It's easier to pick off unaffiliated individuals than people with clout.
    Solidarity!

    [insert not funny joke about Hell's Angels and other motorcycle gangs nobody would want to tangle with]

    [insert stories about noisy neighbors with same last name as famous mafiosi]

    [insert reminder about that's why Kitty Genovese's murderer was left undisturbed--neighbors who heard her screams didn't want to get involved with a mafia family]

  •  don't forget the right to LIVE, as well! (3+ / 0-)
    some communities are passing laws demanding landlords verify legal status before renting apts... and there is a growing trend to run credit checks for both housing and employment.

    so, now the right to rent housing, work, etc., is tied not ONLY to legal residency, but to income?

    this is truly becoming a society of the haves and the shut-outs.

    what on EARTH is america becoming?

    That's the problem! That's the problem! The liberal groups are jumping around without knowing what the hell is in the bill! - dave obey

    by edrie on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:59:45 PM PDT

    •  An empire, if we don't stop them n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Allogenes

      No returns for privilege; full returns for labor! Labor has a right to all that it creates.

      by Mike Erwin on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:29:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Renting apts. (0+ / 0-)

      I actually wrote a diary about the prohibition on renting to illegals a few days ago.

      As far as credit checks go, I think that is legitimate. A landlord can't afford to rent to a deadbeat tenant, or worse. I'm speaking from experience here. I made the mistake of taking in a roommate who turned out to be a criminal. Getting rid of her turned out to be a major headache even after she had used my credit card and stolen (and used) a check.

      So a credit check is, in my mind, legitimate whenever somebody asks to borrow something, including an apartment.

      Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

      by sdgeek on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:24:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Choicepoint has omnipotent powers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    martini, sdgeek

    They are TRW, FBI, and YOUR MEDICAL records on steroids.  Information is power, and our government prohibits our governmment from keeping dossiers on private citizens.

    So what do they do, they subcontract their dirty work.

    Close this looophole immeidately!

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:05:47 PM PDT

  •  this was one of the key components (3+ / 0-)

    in social control in soviet russia and communist china. i.e. the denial of the right to make a living. given the hollowing out of american industry and the apparent republican desire to continue "disciplining" the american worker, i believe that the "no work" list is a very real possibility.

  •  The situation is that bad! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon, JML9999
  •  how about a no-anything list? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sdgeek

    Rights Group Sues Over Terror Watch List

    Credit bureaus, health insurers, car dealerships, employers and landlords all use the watch list, which the government says is vital to catching people, companies or groups accused of supporting or financing terrorism.

    I think everyone knows somebody who managed to make the "enemies of the state" list by "mistake". A mistake that in general, there is no way to correct unless one has friends in high places. I presume Senator Kennedy can fly as he pleases now.

    What about the rest of us?

    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Sun May 20, 2007 at 02:17:09 AM PDT

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