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[T]he refusal to impeach would be a decision as momentous as impeachment itself. It would and could be interpreted only as meaning that Congress does not think [the President] has done anything to warrant impeachment. It would alter the historic relationship of Presidential power to the constitutional system of accountability for the use of that power. The message our generation would send to posterity would be that [the President], whatever his other disasters, had conceived and established a new conception of Presidential accountability, and that his successors, so long as they take care to avoid the crudities of a Watergate burglary, can expect to inherent [the President's] conception of inherent Presidential authority and to wield the unshared power with which he will have endowed the Presidency. Failure to impeach would be a vindication of a revolutionary theory of Presidential accountability.

Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.
May 1974

Just sayin'. [KX]

Recommended diaries at  9 am, Friday, Jun 01, 2007

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:43 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm off today, so (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PBen, volballplr, donnamarie, flumptytail

    I get to be one of the first to write a comment in this open thread!  What's a good idea to do on a day off these days?

    Trust no organizaton bigger than two, and even those are suspect!

    by rjones2818 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:33:33 AM PDT

    •  If you are in the Northeast-go out and enjoy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, flumptytail, rjones2818

      terrific weather.

    •  I would try to make Mark Bittman's bread (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Success is the child of audacity. --Disraeli

      by ChuyHChrist on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:39:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  FOR SALE signs everywhere I drive.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PBen, Ellicatt, flumptytail

      and the houses sit for months in IL.

      In MI, it is even worse. Houses boarded up. In areas of NW MI, you can get a huge 4 bedroom Victorian for under 100,000. Of course, there are no high paying jobs. You'll need to work at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

      My sis said the same thing about her new subdivision in TX. Beautiful neighborhood too. Said now they are just leaving them or have forclosed.

      I should figure on fixing up the old place and getting used to the idea of staying put for awhile.

      If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.--Adlai E. Stevenson

      by vassmer on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:50:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  so true vassmer (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vassmer, flumptytail

        we sold my late parents' house ( our childhood home ) in March. It was on the market for 8 months and people say we were lucky that we sold it when we did. And now, it is not uncommon for a house in excellent condition ( my parents kept their house remodeled, up to date, and very meticulously maintained) with almost an acre flat yard with no water leakage in the basement.
        But still we were lucky to sell it after reducing the price by nearly 9k.

        In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

        by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:21:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A neighbor told me the real estate agent said (0+ / 0-)

          that unless the house is near "perfect" buyers can easily move on to another home. And most of them want at least 2 full baths, stainless steel appliances, and on and on.

          We have ranch house built in the 50s with one bathroom. It is excellently maintained, but it would sit for months and months and months.

          I've already been told our house is probably a "tear down!" It is ripe for a McMansion. Lots of tear downs around here. I was at my village meeting where a  developer said, "....who wants to live in anything older than 5 years old anyway?...." Unbelievable.

          Throw away society.

          If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.--Adlai E. Stevenson

          by vassmer on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:45:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  to put it this way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The dude that bought our childhood home got one heck of a good deal. I mean we did not get hosed but the house, if sold a few years ago, we could have sold it for considerably more. But houses are not selling..and sitting.

        In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

        by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:22:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Were I not averse to IL winters, I'd be (0+ / 0-)

        moving there in a flash to buy at those prices.  But I'm a spoiled Californian who doesn't like the thought of having to drive on ice.  (My relatives, who lived in a Chicago suburb, used to tell me their horror stories of IL snow.)

        My Karma just ran over your Dogma

        by FoundingFatherDAR on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 08:46:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bird watch...morning nap (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debbie in ME, flumptytail

      Of course, the ticks have been horrible around the Midwest this year.
      So if you go walking, check your clothes afterwards.

      If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.--Adlai E. Stevenson

      by vassmer on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:52:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Make a pitcher of fresh lemonade, lie in (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Luetta, Debbie in ME, mango

      a hammock and think of funny things to write in this evening's Cheers and Jeers.

  •  Is anyone else as excited as I am (0+ / 0-)

    About this???

    Or are all of you just too young for video games?

    Boris: You're a tyrant, and a dictator, and you start wars!
    Napoleon: Why is he reciting my credits?

    by B man on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:34:18 AM PDT

  •  There's a good diary people are missing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    itsmitch, mango, flumptytail

    Success is the child of audacity. --Disraeli

    by ChuyHChrist on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:34:43 AM PDT

  •  Any kossacks going to be at the Dem Debate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    on Sunday in New Hampshire?
    I'm going and would love to meet some fellow keyboardists.

    •  sounds like it will be (0+ / 0-)

      a great experience for you, Phil. With the price of gas, some of us cannot afford to travel much especially if we live an hour away from any airport or train station.

      But it sounds like it will be interesting so keep us posted Phil.

      In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

      by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:25:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  GOP comedy: (5+ / 0-)

    I do so love a circular firing squad.
    This is local stuff, but still, funny as hell, I think.

    Magic 95.5 (800)296-9267 And I'da gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

    by kestrel9000 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:39:24 AM PDT

  •  Looking for C&J? Me neither. Piece 'o crap. (19+ / 0-)

    Good morning, Bloggerland.  Coming up tonight:

    While Kos and the other respectable pocket square-toting bloggers are discussing weighty matters over gin fizzes at Roe's this evening, the rabble will be, um, rabbling in a special west coast-friendly edition of Cheers and Jeers.

    Join us at 4pm PDT (7pm eastern) for Bermuda shorts-wearing cicadas, neocons stuck in Rube Goldberg contraptions, Peggy Noonan stabbing her boyfriend Dubya in the back, and choocolate-covered Friedman Units for everyone!

    All that plus lottery numbers and magic lobster eggs tonight on Eyewitness News.

    Fucking little puppy dogs the way they follow...  What do you mean my mic's still on!!??  Shut it off, asshole!  Shut it o...




    "Serenity Vituperation Toxicity Now!"

    by Bill in Portland Maine on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:41:43 AM PDT

  •  I maye have been drinking benzene for years (8+ / 0-)

    Some of you know I've been sick for years.  Terrible vomiting and nausea that settled into a 90-110 day pattern, starting in 2003.  It's kind of a bummer, half the time I've been here I've never truly felt healthy and myself.

    Anyway, I stopped drinking Diet Coke and lo and behold, just 90 days ago I didn't hit the pattern, which has been erratic the year before.  I stopped the Diet Coke in November.  I'd tell people I'd stopped the coke, yeah, but I didn't really think that couldn't be the reason the pattern broke, no way,

    So I'm at Obsidian Wings and find this:  Coke settles lawsuit on Benzene.

    Benzene?  The poison in gasoline that shows up in groundwater?  Yes.  Store citric acid and potassium benzoate in a coke can and at certain temperatures--they didn't say what--fucking benzene forms!!  I got out a diet coke can and there it was, right there: citric acid and potassium benzoate.

    I loved diet coke and bought cases at Costco for years.  Jesus.

    [shrugs] Here I am, hoping I really am better.  Drinking benzene for years, if that's what really happened, could not have helped.  We'll see.

    •  The article says ascorbic acid (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf, wishingwell

      not citric acid.  The coke produts effected are "Vault Zero" and "Fanta Pineapple".

      I'm very glad to hear your feeling better, but this article doesn't mention Diet Coke.

      Thinking men can not be ruled. --Ayn Rand

      by Wisper on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:47:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  citric acid is used in most soft drinks (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I'd wager it's the presence of any types of carboxylic acids that can make benzene form under the right conditions, but whatever. I'm no chemist, I just took courses in Biochem in college.

        •  My dad was (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          shpilk, Debbie in ME

          told to consume more citric acid to combat his type of kidney stones. He was troubled by them for years no matter what was tried and they tried everything.

          It ended up the poor dude died not from any kidney issues ( which we all swore he would ) but from a very rare small intestinal carcinoid cancer.

          But he was told to take citric acid supplements so maybe him drinking diet coke did not hurt him after all..LOL

          In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

          by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:29:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think they're the same thing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Just a sec, checking the wiki.

        Well, it sorta confuses me, I'm not a chemist.

        It says it's Vitamin C, basically.  I can't find anything about citric acid.  I would think citric would associated with vitamin C and ascorbic, but I truly don't know.  Any chemists around?

      •  It's the ingredients, not the Fanta case (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I may have been sick but I'm not stupid.

        •  It could be the (0+ / 0-)

          nutra sweet, aspartame or other artificial sweeteners as well causing some of the intestinal distress..or just the carbonation itself. Everyone is different as soda helps settle my stomach but for some people, it causes enormous intestinal distress. And sometimes cola, chocolate, coffee...can exacerbate diarrhea.

          In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

          by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:31:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  aspartame is another thing that can make (4+ / 0-)

      changes in body chemistry. I have reactions everytime I have anything with aspartame in it.

      Carbonic acid which is present in almost any 'soda' is not something that is great to consume in large quantities, either.

      Hardly ever drink soda of any type, and I feel 100% better because of it.  

    •  Paradox (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I hope you are better. A friend has Chronic Vomiting Syndrome which is rare in adults so not very well known by MDs. His follows a pattern of about every 90 days the vomiting starts and lasts up to 14 days. We think it is triggered by alcohol. He's in rehab now so we shall see. Good luck to you.

      •  true (0+ / 0-)

        Intestinal problems can be exacerbated by alcohol, and a number of non alcoholic beverages. It affects people in many ways depending on the individual.

        In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.- H. L. Mencken

        by wishingwell on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:33:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Our candidates (0+ / 0-)

    Seeing Larry Kissell's post this morning makes me think of our other soldiers from 2006.

    I hear a lot about Duckworth possibly running again.  Anyone know where Darcy Burner is?  Is she coming back?

    Thinking men can not be ruled. --Ayn Rand

    by Wisper on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:42:45 AM PDT

  •  "The Age of Rhetoric" speech-must read! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I don't know how many of you are familiar with this website, but the writing here is some of the clearest and most interesting I have ever seen.  
    The latest post is a copy of a speak given to a real or imaginary (I can't tell) Dept. of Rhetoric at a University telling how the Bush administration sees its power to create REALITY. Indeed it builds upon the quote by this unknown Bushie that said

    "The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors.... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'"

    Anyway, there is so much hear that the best advice is to just read this post and think what has happened.  It is brilliant, and best of all it shows how this flight into Rhetoric over reality may well be coming undone dooming the participants of this dangerous and deadly fiasco. Let us at least hope so!

  •  Any 'Sopranos' fans care to engage (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sherlyle, donnamarie, flumptytail

    in some wild, completely unfounded speculation as to how the show will end? I think somehow it will have to do with Adriana's murder.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

    by vawolf on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:43:10 AM PDT

  •  Skin out of the game (13+ / 0-)

    My nephew is finally out of Afcrapistan after being extended for 120 day in February. Can't wait to get his reports.

    Someone once asked me if I had learned anything from going to war so many times. My reply: Yes, I learned how to cry.
    Joe Galloway

    by BOHICA on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:43:13 AM PDT

  •  I just listened to an interview of (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PBen, sherlyle, donnamarie, flumptytail

    Rajiv Chandrasekaran (author of Imperial Life in Emerald City) on the BBC, and have now found an interview with him on Democracy Now! Check out this man's story.

    17. Ne5

    In chess you may hit a man when he's down -- Irving Chernev, on Przepiorka v. Prokes, Budapest, 1929

    by Spud1 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:43:53 AM PDT

  •  Thanks KX (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Simplify, kidneystones, donnamarie

    I've been trying to say that for a couple yrs now.

    -8.63 -7.28 "Congress _ a group of men who individually can do nothing, but as a group decide that nothing can be done."

    by OneCrankyDom on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:49:16 AM PDT

  •  Ooooh great quote (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Simplify, OneCrankyDom, gchaucer2

    this is one of the arguments I like for at least TRYING to impeach...just to avoid implying that W's actions are acceptable & legal

  •  who cares about dan bartlett (7+ / 0-)

    Martha Stewart is showing how to make crafts with Martha Stewart paste!!!!
    and Rachael Ray is doing something with paper.....


    that is the real important stuff of the day  (oh and that Paris Hilton has one more week of freedom..)

    He may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot...Groucho Marx

    by distributorcap on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:52:03 AM PDT

  •  Al Gore says (4+ / 0-)

    no to impeachment:

    Al Gore against any attempt to impeach Bush

    Now the thing I always remember is Gore putting down the black caucus appeals for investigation into the vote.  I felt then as I did when Kerry just accepted the vote: "we have to at least have a fight on this!"  But no, no fight.  Gore said he thought the only next step was revolution.  I think the next step would have been an airing of what had happened in the vote.  Now we see terms like "vote gating" and nobody is thrown in jail for causing another person to lose their ability to vote.  That is just not right.

    Grandma Jo

    •  Here is his ENTIRE original statement (0+ / 0-)

      GWEN IFILL: You've been a leader. You served in Bill Clinton's administration as vice president. You watched as the Republican Congress impeached him. Do you think that the Democratic-led Congress right now should be making efforts to impeach George W. Bush?

      AL GORE: I haven't made that case. You know, I think that, with...

      GWEN IFILL: Why not?

      AL GORE: Well, with a year and a half to go in his term and with no consensus in the nation as a whole to support such a proposition, any realistic analysis of that as a policy option would lead one to question the allocation of time and resources.

      GWEN IFILL: You don't think it's a good use of time?

      AL GORE: Well, I don't think it is. I don't think it would be likely to be successful.

      Don't you just hate it when people twist words around?

      My Karma just ran over your Dogma

      by FoundingFatherDAR on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 08:57:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Doolittle to have a primary challenger? (0+ / 0-)

    Ah, they turn on eachother so quickly:

    Check out my new blog, dedicated to electing our boys in blue: An Enduring Democratic Majority

    by Skulnick on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:58:36 AM PDT

  •  Amy Goodman (0+ / 0-)

    had a great interview today over at

    it was a panel discussion with psych experts on the wisdom of people of their field working with the military on torture techniques in places like gitmo. very good stuff

  •  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (6+ / 0-)

    i would like to go back in time, find whoever invented the evil known as managementese, and beat them to death with a tire iron. grrrrrrrrrrrr

    all Along the Watchtower...... blogroll

    by terrypinder on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:01:06 AM PDT

  •  The Problem(s) with not Impeaching... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RFK Lives, trinite

    (Or in any way punishing them for their crimes)...Is that without accountability, these political criminals, just resign and/or leave office.  Then, they use their resume of criminal expertise to return to positions where they can continue to wreak havoc on the country and the world.  

    One example is Tim Griffin, "alleged" master vote cager, resigns from DoJ, then interviews for Thompson’s campaign, where he could, theoretically, use his experience to help Thompson repeat the GOP’s successes of  the FL 2000, and the Ohio 2004 elections.  

    I’m well aware of, and intellectually accept all the anti-impeachment arguments—"It would take too long.  It would be a waste of Congressional resources.  We don’t have the number of necessary votes in the Senate to convict", etc.  

    I agree intellectually—so why does my conscience rebel against my reason?  Why do I feel like Judas being offered 20 pieces of silver in the form of Democratic legislative victories like increasing the minimum wage, in return for quietly accepting Congress’s voting for the continued unnecessary sacrifice of troops in Iraq?  

    •  Impeachment is definitely justified. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mango, kurious

      The problem is that the corporate culture that runs this country won't allow the impeachment of a corporate clone unless a conviction is coming.  Anyone who tries it will be destroyed.  We don't run this country anymore.  If we did, we would certainly not be the only industrialized nation in the world without health care for all.  I share your feelings on impeachment.

  •  Impeach. Gonzales. Now. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mango, Data Pimp, Greasy Grant

    What's the question here?  The guy enabled torture and tried to make an ICU patient subvert the law before becoming AG.  Since becoming AG, he turned the DOJ into an arm of the RNC, and then lied about it under oath.

    He has no political following--there's no risk here.  Legally, there's more than ample evidence to not merely impeach, but to convict.  An example has to be made of one of these guys, and Gonzales is clearly the easiest target.

    The Supplemental vote, the "compromise" on trade, and all the rest are hard enough to accept.  The cowardice here, however, truly takes the cake.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:10:35 AM PDT

    •  Now, while Bush or Cheney could not be... (0+ / 0-)

      ...successfully impeached (that is, convicted), Gonzales quite possibly could be.  The vote in the Senate would probably fail, but you might get a dozen Republicans on board.  It's close enough that it might be worth a shot.

      Now, there is a political question here, though-which is better for the Democrats (and the country), having a total moron as Attorney General, or risking the chance Bush nominates somebody competent to do his dirty work?  Of course, successfully impeaching him does hurt the President politically.

      Impeaching Gonzales probably makes sense, and it's a way to impeach the entire Bush administration (in a way) without seeming to try to steal the presidency (as any President Pelosi scenerio would look like).  It makes more sense than attempting an impeachment trial with no chance of winning (that is, against either Bush or Cheney).

      •  I think that you could get 67 votes to convict... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, Data Pimp

        I'm relatively certain you could get at least 60.  I'd like to see a slew of already nervous GOP senators have to choose between their perceived political futures and loyalty to the WH.  I'd also like to see the veneer of phony bipartisanship ripped away once and for all.

        Any successor to Abu would have to be confirmed by the Senate.  If that successor was nominated after Gonzo left office under cloud of impeachment, W's options there would even be more circumscribed.  Impeaching Gonzo is a no-brainer.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 08:05:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yup, I was guessing in the low sixties (0+ / 0-)

          One or two Democrats (or "Democrats", aka Joementum) voting against, with a dozen or so Republicans voting for conviction.  But that dozen could be twenty, which is enough for a conviction, and even a close loss in this case is a win, in a way.

          A Bush or Cheney impeachment would probably get Hagel and that's it on the Republican side (and probably more nos on the Democrats side-we might not get a simple majority), which would make it seem very partisan and a waste of time and a power grab (for a President Pelosi).

  •  Yesterday,the day from Hell! (6+ / 0-)

     Personal rant but I've got to let some steam off! Harrisonburg City[motorcycle]cop,going 80+ in a 45...coming straight at myself and friend. This jackass didn't have control of that bike at all,did not slow down,and did not have lights or sirens going. My friend sees what's coming and quickly backs out of the turn she was preparing to make and just freezes. If I had put my hand out the window I could have touched this motorcycle cop as he spun out inches away from us,hit the curb,and flipped off of his bike. Cops from 2 different cities show up,the Sheriffs dept.,and the State Troopers whose office happens to be across the street from where the accident occurred. We were there for over 2 hours and all but the H-burg police seem to have the facts straight. H-burg on the other hand is trying to say that we cut him off. We were on the other side of the intersection for cryin' out loud! It's looking like we're going to end up in court,the H-burg cops have to find someone to blame right!? The headlines of the local newspaper yesterday was about an H-burg cop who hit a woman and severely injured her. Obviously these assholes do not know how to drive! Argggg!!!!


  •  Is it worth serving the articles (0+ / 0-)

    if we can't get the guilty judgement at the end?

    There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument.

    Just because Clinton was not found guilty doesn't mean that the right hasn't brought him up EVERY.DAY since then.

    And I want to believe that people will be able to call a turd a turd, and notice if the Republicans circle up and go Party over country.

  •  Question about diaries. (0+ / 0-)

    I published one yesterday at 9:30PM PST and it is listed as being published as 05/31/07, but when I go to publish one for today it says I've already published my diary for today. I suppose this is (snark) east coast bias (because 9:30 PST is 12:30 AM EST, 06/01/0) and that the site is somehow crediting my diary to today, but isn't this a glitch of some sort? nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

    by JeffLieber on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:13:27 AM PDT

  •  I wish (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Greasy Grant

    that I could squeeze that Schlesinger quote into my sig.

    When are people going to wake up and smell the coffee?

    "Do you know any reporters?" -- Jon Stewart to Matt Cooper, 4/23/07

    by Mehitabel9 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:18:57 AM PDT

  •  Regarding Impeachment (0+ / 0-)

    With few exceptions, I expect most Kossaks would like to see Bush  impeached, convicted, and removed from office.

    Looking at the Schlesinger quote, it occurs to me that there really are at least two aspects to impeachment:

    (1) Practical: removing Bush from office to limit further damage he can do (e.g. Iraq).

    (2) Symbolic: standing up for the rule of law.

    The problem as I see it is that these two objectives are not perfectly aligned yet.  The practical objective is harder to achieve.  There are two obstacles; the first is simply Cheney.   We'd have to impeach and convict him first, because if anything he's worse the Bush.  The second obstacle are the Republicans in the Senate, who can and will block conviction.

    One possible strategy is to start with Gonzales and other cabinet officials. It is presumably easier to obtain convictions of these, it acts to restrain the power of the executive branch, and it will probably provide information to support further impeachments.

    This would serve both the practical and symbolic ends of impeachment, although neither as well as an early conviction of the President would.  However, an acquittal of the President might well be bad for both goals.

    I've lost my faith in nihilism

    by grumpynerd on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:23:01 AM PDT

    •  Some in DC have no stomach for impeachment (0+ / 0-)

      I believe that Congress, now controlled by the Democrats, does not have the will to stand up to Mr. Bush on any occasion. It has taken 6 months just to try to get a non-binding, no confidence vote on Gonzales.

      The new blue Congress buckled on the supplemental bill, mumbling something about a tougher stand in September, but in reality not meaning any of it.

      I would not count on impeachment by this Congress, conviction or not, even though I think Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, all deserve it. Many seem to just want the clock to run out on the administration and see what pieces of America are left to cobble together to remake the nation.

    •  Schlesinger addresses much of this. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Data Pimp

      And from many angles. One of which is the realization that impeachment is a legitimate tool of Congressional inquiry, not merely something for which conviction votes need be counted ahead of time.

      From the article:

      [N]o President can withhold evidence in an impeachment inquiry. Whatever standing the claim of executive privilege may have in other circumstances, it has none here. James K. Polk was the only President between Jackson and Lincoln to enhance the power of the Presidency; but Polk conceded with utmost clarity in a message to the House of Representatives in 1846 that, if the House were looking into executive misconduct with a view to the exercise of its power of impeachment, "the power of the House in the pursuit of this object would penetrate into the most secret recesses of the Executive Departments. It could command the attendance of any and every agent of the Government, and compel them to produce all papers, public or private, official or unofficial, and to testify on oath to all facts within their knowledge."

      Does anyone think that maybe, with this "administration" defying subpoenas, pleading the 5th, refusing to appear under oath, stonewalling when they do, etc., the oversight we were all promised as a result of the 2006 elections could use this kind of a boost, given the magnitude of the wrongdoing supposedly under investigation?

      •  It could backfire (0+ / 0-)

        Any attempt to impeach both Bush and Cheney will be seen by many as a power grab for the presidency (President Pelosi).  That could hurt us enough amoungst independents that we could lose the 2008 election.

        The impeachment against Clinton was not seen as such, because there was never going to be a President Gingrich, only a President Gore.

        I suppose one could impeach Bush but not Cheney, but in the one in a million chance that succeeds, we do get President Cheney, which is not helpful.

        Kucinich is going after Cheney alone, but if I would to choose who to impeach, I would impeach Gonzales, mainly because there is a chance of actual success there in the Senate.

        •  Anything "could backfire." (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Data Pimp, Greasy Grant

          An attempt to impeach both Bush and Cheney that goes something like this, "Hey, you're both out and we're in" would likely backfire, sure.

          But think about what we're saying would backfire here. We're saying that a thorough and public trial, that exposes for the entire nation to see the actual record of the Bush/Cheney "administration," and puts it in such a light that the only defense to it is to cry about "power grabs," even as Congress gets set to bounce these two from office for perpetrating the greatest power grab in history.

          I'm not entirely sure I buy the power of the "power grab" backfire theory.

          •  You need the evidence before you impeach. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            These people think nothing of destroying evidence and do it routinely.  Don't count on them to produce anything that compromises their position.  With Nixon, Congress had what they needed, the tapes.  He had no choice but to resign.  I think that in the Libby indictment they provided time for presenting documents that was probably used for destroying documents.  We can't count on the media or press to be on our side unless we have solid evidence.

            •  What sealed the impeachment decision... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geotpf, Data Pimp

              for Nixon, though, was the purposeful destruction of the evidence.

            •  evidence can be found through the truth (0+ / 0-)

              9/11 Truth


              Watch , digest and spread the word.  The evidence will become visable

              •  Enough with the 9/11 conspriarcy theories (0+ / 0-)


                I'm tempted to troll rate this (but I won't).

                •  Geotpf (0+ / 0-)

                  It appears you have never taken another look at what happened on 9/11.  Just look at the factual evidence available to all of us.  If everyone would just take a look and do a little research, then we could all be well on the way to a peaceful world.

                  The 3 steel skyscrappers that came down in New York that day, one not even hit by a plane, came down at freefall speed just like controlled demolition.  The commission report doesn't even mention WTC7. Why?  To many unanswered questions. Find out why.

                  I use to believe as you, but I did the research and now know the only way to peace is through knowledge of what really happened on that day. The official story becomes invalid once you take a look.

                  thank you, if you take a look, be skeptical for sure, I was.

  •  In violation of Geneva? (0+ / 0-)

    The implication of there being "migration" of "SERE" techniques to the "war on terror", when SERE training was intended to replicate treatment of prisoners not in keeping with the Geneva Convention (so as to prepare soldiers for that sort of treatment), is that our treatment of detainees is itself not in keeping with Geneva.

    Now, I know Bush likes to argue these conflicts we're in don't fit under Geneva, but if they do...

  •  Talk to me, Firefox 2.00x users. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debbie in ME

    I'm still on 1.5....

    Is 2 dot working well enough now to swtich?

    What does that extra megabyte of software do for us?

    Any dKos issues?


  •  Last days of Homo imprudens (0+ / 0-)

    Drowning and broiling Homo (not very)sapiens

       Watch and wonder as the humans drown and broil themselves!  Three interacting engines are driving global warming:  (1) Overpopulation; (2) Business Enterprise; (3) Machinification.

       No one is addressing these issues.  Our steadily increasing population produces more and more people who demand jobs in factories that produce more and more greenhouse gases while manufacturing cars producing still more greenhouse gases that the steadily increasing population will insist on buying.  

       No western nation with a powerful Catholic church will even discuss population control.  Third world countries will not discuss it because they see themselves being forced to limit their growth by more "advanced" countries.

      The forces of Business Enterprise are already engaged in a sham to make it appear they are dealing with greenhouse gases but in fact will do everything they can to make certain there is no substantive action taken.

       Finally, the greenhouse gases are produced by machines and the factories that make the machines and the coal-burning needed to produce electricity to warm the homes of the overpopulated planet.  The trucking industry has exempted diesel engines from emission controls.  

      Ours is not the "wise" species known as Homo sapiens.  Ours is the species that could not see the consequences of its actions.  We are Homo imprudens, the species that could not see the consequences of its actions.  

     The sad part is that unless we begin to act together in a way that addresses these true causes of global warming, those of us who can see the consequences will drown or broil just as certainly as those who cannot.  Considering all the planets in the universe where some form of "intelligent" life is believed to exist, Earth and our species constitutes merely one more failed evolutionary experiment.  Can you hear the spheres singing:  "And another one's gone and another one's gone and another one bites the dust"?

  •  looking for quote (0+ / 0-)

    Anyone have the link to that bush quote from yesterday about the war.  something stupid (i know, i know) like "some people don't believe we should not be at war in iraq.. i'm not one of them"  

    Bush: The buck doesn't even slow down here.

    by cgvjelly on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 09:38:27 AM PDT

  •  Impeachment: Political "Go, go!" or, "Whoa, whoa!" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Please understand, sirs and madams, that politics is all about the possible and the art of compromising without compromising principles ( the latter is a 21st century sentiment ).

    Surely a majority of Democrats minus Turncoat Joe, Sen. Ben Nelson and others favor impeachment. Impeachment is off the table until it is poltically expedient for it not to be off the table.

    Nationwide, conditions have to be just right and enough of the worst kinds of abuses have to be committed for impeachment to be legally and politically viable. The Dems and minority of good Republicans only get one major shot at this. We are dealing with an entrenched system that's begrudgingly transitioning from K Street incompetence and corruption to full accountabilty and an open process.

    I agree: waiting the clock out on these arrogant gutless wonders is not a good plan. First, get the logistics together in terms of calendar time. Then excoriate the bushies from the legal, political and economic sides. Get the staffers on every House and Senate seat to go at the bushies' staffers in any decent way imaginable. Piss them off, don't laugh in front of them, expose their minor mistakes like clerical errors or office procedure errors, make fun of them in public, give them the stink eye ( the dead man walking look ). Once all avenues of decency have been availed, get indecent. Use dirty tricks for a short time. Throw Karl Rove's book right back at him and them.

    We can all readily see Bu$h is losing it, physically and mentally. He appears half drunk ( a dry drunk ) half the time and on Xanax the other half. He is perpetually spooked and has good reason to be. His Administration and Gestapo Gonzales tried to pull a really bad sly move against the American people despite the better judgement of conservatives like former Deputy A.G. Comey and A.G. Ashcroft.

    Write your House of Representatives member and petition him or her to initiate or vote on impeachment or resolution of censure. Support Rep. Kucinich's impeachment efforts against "Darth Cheney".

    I predict Cheney can and will be impeached first. Or, he'll croak from bad health. Then they'll go after the Executive branch. Dan "Westley" Bartlett is already out.

  •  I was not a Sheehan lover; but crushed she's gone (0+ / 0-)

    Because you know the four headless horses-asses of the Apocolypse (Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Savage) are jerking off in celebration that they broke another one.

    I seethe at these evil bastards. I wrote a diary directly to them a while back, demanding that if they truly believe the dispicable rhetoric they assail their audience with about Liberals than they should have teams of snipers amassed to pick us off or they're betraying themselves. We can't be as lethal and destructive to the functioning and future of this country and still be allowed to live. Strangely, none of them has solicited me for any airtime interviews or rebuttals.

    But to have Cindy Sheehan fight for so long for the right reasons and then on the way out blame soft support from our team is just too fucking much for me. I can't even risk turning on an AM radio or letting my morbid curiosity of O'Reilly/Hannity let me risk a Fox check because I'd wreck my car or set my TV on fire.

    "God Bless America, United We Stand!" (oh, yeah, but the half that voted Democratic can be ignored and disparaged, they are dispensible and wicked too!") Joseph Goebbels would be proud to have done what Karl Rove and the right wing  mouthpieces above and others like Malkin and Coulter have accomplished.

    I'm just fucking sick of it. And I use that word because people find it offensive, because I want anyone who isn't frothing at the mouth to be as raving mad as I am. If I can get them mad at me for being a potty mouth, then at least I got some adrenaline flowing that might be used to aim that angst at the right people.

    It's time to call their bluff. If I am to be viewed as a threat/destructive force/traitor to my country by some people who make a lot of money saying it and then have the gullible listeners of same repeat the lie, then they need to put their goddamn money where their mouth is, or keep that mouth in check.

    They broke Cindy - as if losing her son for this fucking excuse for a "doctrine" that is nothing short of a red-phone call to God from W. and company acknowledging their role in launching Armageddon so they can fulfill the delusions of meeting Jesus for a beer and a rapture is not enough - there is no room left in this country for half of it that is still working, sacrificing, and dying for it's efforts to be called traitors for their sacrifices.

    And don't anyone dare suggest that any of the other 3500 and more dead and the 25,000 wounded were any less worthy of our efforts; somebody needs to grow the balls to stand up at the next white house press briefing or those cute little "press conferences" and go off script for once:

    "Give us a number, Mr. President. How many dead and wounded will Captain Ahab need to get his wretched white whale?

    We want a number, Mr. Bush."

    We weren't given freedoms to be told not to use them, and I am not a traitor for taking advantage of the opportunity. Impeachment was never meant to be a political gotcha tool; it's a safety switch to shut down a madman run amok and afoul of the Constitution. And if that's not what we have now then we might as well remove impeachment for all time, because there will never be a better case.

    We misused it against Clinton, and now everyone's got cold feet because we're afraid we might screw up again. The minute Ford was lauded as a hero for "sparing" the country the truth about Nixon, I knew we were screwed. November to remember my ass, for all our efforts to get sane people in power seem to have elected some genuine milqetoast cowards, or they're in on the program.

    This is worse than when we tried to frame an undeniably guilty O.J. and in doing so let him go free. Are we so afraid of the truth that we put the wrong man in charge (twice) that we are unwilling to even try to take back the helm before he runs the entire ship of state aground for good?

    If there is a God, then surely he has instructed the Dark One to construct a new wing in Hell for the Bush administration. Let the Let the RightWingNews koolaid-swillers call me a fool and an idiot for pointing this out; I won't be the one who cheers when the blood rises to the height of a horse's bridle thinking that it's a good thing, only to find out that when the curtain is called on Earth it was because mankind did it to it's own kind and ruined the future for any kind.

    Cindy, I salute your sacrifice  and you should never find any shame nor make any apology for your efforts. You did not back the wrong horse (donkey), but sometimes they are an unpredictable and confused animal. It doesn't help that these dispicable bastards on the right don't play by the rules; there is no way they could do what they do and still honestly believe in God, because I can't possibly see how they aren't all going to be in Satan's Hall of Fame.

    Maybe this should have been a diary, but I needed to rant in the public square to make sure someone heard me. Rant over. Thanks Kossarians for the therapy. If I went too far, I'll accept advice to go rant elsewhere.

    George Orwell is banging on his coffin lid and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:23:12 AM PDT

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