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There was a diary the other day on this and I read it and like other warnings before, I shrugged my shoulders and said what can I do about it? Then I read an article that referred to the latest Executive Order from President Bush.

That article refers to a radio interview on Air America's Thom Hartmann Show and also references an article written by a Mr. Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. Not the sort of person who would frequent Daily Kos as an ally.

More on the flip.

First, and foremost, I request this diary be recommended so it survives a day or two in the recommended section. I could care less that this diary is recommended because I wrote it. I give permission to steal my diary, if necessary, by a more prominent Kos writer, if that is what is needed to bring attention to this.

I have never in my 50 years of life been more frightened then I am now. I have seen the arrogance of this White House and the massive damage done to our country. But the Katrina-size storm clouds are gathering folks. If we do not wake up now and flood Congress to impeach the President and Vice President, one year from now, Daily Kos may be banned and Markos himself may be disappeared, in a federal prison somewhere.

Even as I write these words I feel like a wild-eyed nutcase. If it were not for the OH SO REAL danger this country faces in the next 15 months or so as the people in power see their own doom and are determined to prevent their expulsion from power by suspending next year's elections and declaring martial law WHEN the next 9/11 comes or events that can be construed as a national emergency to "justify" such actions, I would be holding my tongue and crossing my fingers.

I know that the readers on Daily Kos are all too aware of the evil intent of the Bush regime, but I fear even they, even you, are not alarmed enough. I fear you, like me until now, are hoping we can get through the next 15 months or so and throw the bums out in the 2008 election and hope that we avoid war with Iran and another 9/11.

If we cross our fingers hard enough and hold our breath (and close our eyes, and tap our ruby slippers together) maybe we'll wake up to a beautiful new dawn January 20, 2009. Maybe even Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny will help elect a Democratic White House and stronger Democratic Congress.

What will it take to wake US up, let alone the average out-of-touch-with-reality American? What will it take? I thought about martial law the other day and I never thought I would actually hope illegal militias in the United States would be our final hope against a real dictatorship - that Americans will rise up with arms against a dictatorial government.

But I fear even that hope is farfetched. Remember 9/11? Remember how most Americans were rah-rah patriotic (including me) and flying flags everywhere and supporting the President at 90% approval (including me)? Now I don't know how and if we will have a disaster equal in casualties to 9/11 or worse, but even a series of London type bombings killing "only" a few dozen Americans may be all that is needed to institute martial law and cause most Americans, in fear, to rally around a President who warned them Al Quada was after us and that he will protect us with extraordinary means. He will say "these measures" are now needed to ensure no further attacks are done.

And maybe Washington can help precipitate a 9/11 by attacking Iran and causing groups like Hezbollah to launch attacks on American soil - the President then carries out his many executive orders and in effect suspends all Constitutional rights and effects martial law.

This is deadly serious folks. This is not just another diary. We ignore this threat at our own peril. I would suggest even I in writing articles like this and the many writers at Daily Kos are personally at risk of being arrested in a future dictatorial United States. The government will use these writings as an excuse to put us away.

Is that what you want? Do we just lie down and accept our fate? That our precious Constitutional democracy is on its deathbed? Are my writings the writings of a mad man, a silly alarmist? Do I over blow the danger? Is Paul Craig Roberts, a man who has been in the halls of power, a mad man?

I say WAKE UP Daily Kos!! If the people at Daily Kos cannot take this seriously and try and do something about it, then the United States, as a free country IS doomed. Enjoy your freedom to read and write at such sites as Daily Kos, because that freedom will be taken away WHEN Bush declares martial law.

What can we do, you ask? Good question. I myself feel helpless. I write my Congress people (the few possibly sympathetic, like Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio) and realize the Senator himself will never read my letter.

That is why I write this article on Daily Kos. I hope enough people will read this and be agitated enough to really raise this issue NON-STOP. We need to write articles daily on this danger. I know members of Congress read Daily Kos. I know there is a Daily Kos convention coming up with people like Senator Clinton coming.

Yes, we need to convince Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers to put impeachment back on the table, because I am 100% convinced that is our only remedy left. The Republican Congress impeached Bill Clinton on much less significant issues then we can bring against Bush and Cheney.

Politicians like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and others need to be prepared for their own "Boris Yeltsin" moment when they may need to "stand on the tanks" and defy a dictatorial government. I hope we can remove these tyrants from office before that reality comes, but if we keep holding our breath and hoping we can make it to January 2009 before such events occur, we may wake up one morning, like the people of the Soviet Union did in 1991, and find tanks in the streets of Washington surrounding the White House and Pentagon and they wage war on their own citizens in the form of martial law and as we see many members of Congress under arrest as subversives.

Is this an Orwellian dream, a fantasy, a movie thriller? Or is this a cold-blooded real probability? Do we want to wait and see?

I pray we do not.

UPDATE:

I truly appreciate those who have "suggested" this article is nothing more then tin-foil alarmism that gives DailyKos a bad reputation. My hope remains that is TRUE.

But I will emphasize that this article was not written because I raised the alarm, but because a former Reagan official raised the alarm, and he raised in it no uncertain terms. Now, if someone can present evidence why Paul Craig Roberts is not credible, other then his former disparaging of Democrats (my, he was a partisan, imagine that) and if someone can specifically show why his arguments are ridiculous, that will give me and others some peace of mind.

I will also say this article was written in the context of what this White House has already done - from illegal wiretapping, torture, renditions, lying about reasons for war, arresting and jailing people without trial or attorneys, suspending Habeas Corpus, signing statements ignoring laws at will, declaring executive priviledge on EVERYTHING, refusing to audit handling of classified data, politicizing the Justice Department, etc, etc.

Obviously some of those things are worse then others, but when a President tries and take away our MOST basic right to Habeas Corpus, the non-alarmists better wake up.

TODAY, July 21

Good day all. Keep your ears peeled during the time Richard Cheney is Acting President of the United States today. Ordinarily such an event would be a ho-hum event, but in today's world, maybe not so much. Hopefully being President for only a couple of hours will limit any damage Cheney can cause. Of course, Cheney is already the defacto President anyway. (For those who do not know, Bush will be sedated today for a colonoscopy and will transfer the powers of the presidency to Cheney while he is sedated)

Originally posted to slw0606 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:47 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Coming? (162+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ed in Montana, Angie in WA State, sj, Sean Robertson, ultrageek, bluecayuga, areucrazy, ljm, theboz, Shockwave, Sherri in TX, democat, cookiesandmilk, rightiswrong, xynz, DemDachshund, LeftHandedMan, Bexley Lane, Mumon, Harper, opinionated, Boston Boomer, conchita, elveta, Doc Allen, CoolOnion, RabidNation, Mlle Orignalmale, ksh01, cognitive dissonance, wishingwell, nargel, thingamabob, mayan, kharma, hopesprings, Tracker, TiaRachel, Seattlite, churchylafemme, Bulldawg, niteskolar, johnnygunn, betson08, papercut, walkshills, fran1, Ritter, Marc in KS, chimpwatch, tovan, cantwait08, Five of Diamonds, rimstalker, corvo, frandor55, truong son traveler, zbctj52, ChemBob, Annalize5, LUH 3417, jimreyn, vassmer, Barcelona, lmariefrombama, Little Lulu, lasky57, The Raven, sodalis, playtonjr, YukonJack, sinewave, ChuckInReno, Tigana, esquimaux, trashablanca, Do Tell, kraant, tarheelblue, Sam the Wolfdog, testvet6778, stonemason, victoria2dc, DInPhilly, fromer, Texas Blue Dot, a gnostic, greenearth, blueoasis, SherriG, DarkestHour, Lashe, gravitylove, NearlyNormal, armadillo, betsyross, Preston S, Potus2020, ER Doc, feduphoosier, doingbusinessas, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, toys, RantNRaven, AmySmith, Enough Talk Lets Get Busy, kidneystones, Temmoku, AllanTBG, OHdog, NonnyO, xaxado, Old Gardener, drmah, godislove, hormiguero, ricsec7, offgrid, Wide Awake in NJ, EdSF, dallasdave, JeremyA, DvCM, lynmar, Owllwoman, heathergirl, Jimdotz, Nordic Kossor, DWG, phoenixdreamz, dolphin777, jayden, brentmack, stratocasterman, netguyct, TexasTwister, Captain Nimrod, keikekaze, JammerML, mathGuyNTulsa, Lobsters, Mighty Ike, tfatha, Devsd, Mad Kossack, ArmyWife, KansasLiberal, ms scarlett leadpipe, calibpatriot, AshesAllFallDown, shadetree mortician, Residentcynic, fatbyjhnsn, protectedmode, Mind That, kN3eLb4Z0d, cosmic lattice, saildude, SaMx, kyril, livy, Tropical Depression

    Dude, where have you been.

    It's already here!

    PEACE, through superior DIPLOMACY!

    by Walt starr on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:41:12 AM PDT

    •  You Haven't seen Nothing Yet (238+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lupin, Alumbrados, Angie in WA State, sj, Sean Robertson, Peace JD, copymark, theboz, Shockwave, Sherri in TX, cotterperson, democat, LynnS, rhubarb, cookiesandmilk, rightiswrong, Pompatus, DemDachshund, LeftHandedMan, Bexley Lane, Carnacki, Walt starr, mataliandy, Harper, Nonie3234, EvieCZ, Dazy, Shadan7, mint julep, notimportant, elveta, Doc Allen, nyceve, The 1n Only Leoni, CoolOnion, als10, melthewriter, javelina, LondonYank, oceanspray, nargel, jjhalpin, thingamabob, diana04, splashy, SneakySnu, mayan, dangoch, kharma, hopesprings, Alizaryn, Eddie in ME, cometman, Seattlite, Builderman, exiledfromTN, goobop, churchylafemme, Bulldawg, niteskolar, Oy the Billybumbler, Penny Century, defluxion10, cato, betson08, papercut, lcrp, Blackstar, Brian82, walkshills, bwintx, parkslopper50, WisVoter, fran1, bablhous, Marc in KS, Spam Spam Bacon Spam, Gowrie Gal, chimpwatch, AttyDave4, rapala, fijiancat, cantwait08, Bluesee, radarlady, farleftcoast, 3goldens, DianeNYS, bellevie, Bodean, corvo, Jersey Girl, frandor55, truong son traveler, zbctj52, dewtx, ChemBob, david78209, Ranting Roland, reflectionsv37, Spoc42, Annalize5, bleeding blue, buckeyedem08, IL dac, deliciae, jimreyn, vassmer, dunderhead, eaglecries, lotlizard, peteri2, QuickSilver, Little Lulu, lasky57, paxpdx, The Raven, Five Thirty, witchamakallit, wiscmass, sodalis, playtonjr, mojavefog, Dania Audax, viscerality, ChuckInReno, Tigana, Paper Cup, andreuccio, Showman, Shirl In Idaho, Major Danby, trashablanca, Do Tell, kraant, tarheelblue, mjfgates, testvet6778, stonemason, deha, fromer, Texas Blue Dot, neecie100, greenearth, blueoasis, SherriG, DarkestHour, Lashe, condoleaser, NearlyNormal, armadillo, Rusty1776, bleeding heart, bonesy, Dagoril, CA Nana, doingbusinessas, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, toys, Stripe, means are the ends, RantNRaven, kurt, zedaker, Bernie68, Enough Talk Lets Get Busy, AyLian, Class of 72, Temmoku, AllanTBG, Opposite Reaction, OHdog, NonnyO, DBunn, Noor B, dotdot, YoyogiBear, xaxado, donnamarie, Old Gardener, Duke S, drmah, godislove, uniongal, ricsec7, Wide Awake in NJ, dallasdave, JeremyA, DvCM, lynmar, Owllwoman, chigh, Jimdotz, greenchiledem, BehereBenow, Nordic Kossor, DWG, phoenixdreamz, dolphin777, brentmack, lizpolaris, nodal aim, MaskedKat, Rumarhazzit, keikekaze, JammerML, jmm1, jniola, mathGuyNTulsa, Lobsters, MKinTN, GANJA, fayeforcure, Mad Kossack, LightningMan, Hippokleides, Phil N DeBlanc, ms scarlett leadpipe, scooter in brooklyn, calibpatriot, shadetree mortician, Mother of Zeus, robroser, fatbyjhnsn, Happy Days, kN3eLb4Z0d, TH Seed, geomoo, Jake Williams, saildude, pberq, noddem, kyril, livy, o the umanity, Tropical Depression, GWboosebag, chalatenango

      Yes, it is technically already here, but I suggest you may be a bit more concerned when you see tanks in your own street and you or a loved one arrested for "subversive" behavior.

      We can still stop the worst of it (I hope)

        •  No, It's In The Hands of the People (119+ / 0-)

          Congress may need to do the actual work, but the people need to rise up and DEMAND Congress take action. The pressure needs to be relentless.

          We need to get the word out far and wide, we need to not give up, to be dilligent in our efforts and not take NO for an answer.

          Our very freedom is at stake, and this not not rhetorical blather.

          •  Well, when do we take to the streets? (74+ / 0-)

            When do we get people away from their TVs and computers and into the streets of DC? When will we have such a huge presence that they will call it an ORANGE REVOLUTION here?

            I'm not talking violent revolution folks. I'm talking about getting a million or more people into DC to stop Bush and Cheney from destroying America.

            "It's the planet, stupid."

            by FishOutofWater on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:39:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is a cold-blooded real probability. (37+ / 0-)

              And it is all taking place while Billo is calling us Nazis and the rest of the country is obsessing over Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan's drug problem and watching "American Idol."

              "Success is not no violence." - GWB - 5/2/2007

              by Kdoug on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:44:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Our Power is In the Streets! (13+ / 0-)

                Waiting for Congress to act is folly ofthe most dangerous sort. Counting on the 2008 elections to correct the course we are on is even more dangerous. We need to be in the streets NOW.

                I strongly urge every Kossack to get involved in planning some sort of action for the First Iraq Moratorium on Sept. 21 and to plan on actively building  ever larger and more determined protests on the third friday of every month thereafter. The Iraq Moratorium offers a framework in which action can be taken and escalating pressure placed on the whole political system that sends the clearest message that the militaristic drive towards dictatorship will be resisted and that we will make this country ungovernable if that is what is neccesary in order to reverse the present course.

                The talk here of revolution should not be treated as bombast. We are all facing an existential choice that is likely to involve great personal danger but that also carries the possibility for realizing many long overdue changes in the organization of this society. But it won't happen in cyberspace (though that can help). We need to get into the streets if we want to strike real fear in the hearts of theses gangsters (and their Dem enablers).

                Build the Iraq Moratorium Fri., Sept. 21!
                "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

                by Christopher Day on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:49:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Our power is in the streets... (5+ / 0-)

                  ...only if the media covers it.  And only if the police don't use deadly force to remove us.  My bet is that it'll only take one massacre... if it takes that much... to shut up the last of us who are still awake.  

                  In the meantime, don't expect our countrymen to stand up to this.... because... look!, Deal or No Deal is on!

                  You can be as free as you want, so long as Republicans control birth, death, sex and marriage. And whose vote counts.

                  by ultrageek on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:54:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wrong (13+ / 0-)

                    We can expect the media to downplay protests. But we have the means now to do an end run and get the word out anyway. When a million people march in the streets, media coverage isn't the only measure of the impact of such an action, particularly if those million are determined to get the word out themselves and to come back the next month or week or day as needed.

                    As for the effects of massacres, they are notoriously unpredictable. Sometimes they scare people into retreat. Other times they inflame popular anger to the point that governments are toppled. I sometimes share your cynical view of our TV-addled countrymen and women. But remember that the Kent State and Jackson State massacres sparked the biggest student strike in US history, shutting down the majority of major universities and making it clear that the political costs of continuing the war were becoming too high. THe powers that be also know this history and it can have a restraining effect on them. Hundreds of thousands have repeatedlty marched against this war already and there hasn't been a massacre yet. I'm not suggesting that the Bushies wouldn't resort to such methods. I think they would. I'm only arguing that the situation is much more potentially volatile that you seem to assume.

                    Build the Iraq Moratorium Fri., Sept. 21!
                    "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

                    by Christopher Day on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:13:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Agress Bush already has answer for demonstrations (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      drmah

                      even IF CIVIL - internment

                      Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

                      by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:27:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Media Coup Why The Landscape Unprecedented (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      stringer bell, brentmack

                      Congress is at their FINAL Tipping point I believe NOW...

                      Why do I have little faith in everyday people's power anymore in the traditional ways we USED to have to express our power.

                      HOW can I SAY that?

                      Here's Why....

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      The Presidency of Mexico UNDENIABLY was Stolen last year - yet we had NO media coverage, NO protests here, and when a MILLION People flooded Mexico city to protest - I remember distinctly CNN saying "Thousands protested today in Mexico City"

                      What difference - if we flooded DC with 10 Million?  

                      Our Lexington or Concord today could be answered by a few loitering UAV's & "hellfire" missles - not even any need for a human 1-on 1 confrontation - all done by remote control......

                      NO Opposition & Truthtellers, Except for Conyers, Webb, and a few others - ....Never been more scared for our Republic.

                      WIsh someone had realistic rebuttal to this - would love some reason for hope....

                      Blind loyalty to self-defeating strategies is equally destructive as working for your enemy.

                      by Hiroprotag on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:17:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The Media Has Always Lied to Us (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kraant

                        Do you think their coverage of anti-war demonstrations during Viet nam was accurate. Burying and disorting inconvenient stories of popular protest has always been their standard operating procedeure. Successful social movements are those that are able to overcome these attempts to block communications. In the 60s it required an extensive "underground press." Today its the internets.

                        I was in Mexico when the elections were stolen. The important thing isn't whether there were demonstrations in the US, but the extent of the demonstrations in Mexico which were huge. They didn't stop the stealing of the election, but they did set the stage for the even sharper conflict in Oaxaca and the continuing slow boil that we have not heard the last of.

                        Look, I find the relative quiet that greets each outrage of this regime as disturbing as you do, but popular anger moves by its own rhythmms. Frustration with this government is very widespread and there are a LOT of voices out there decrying what is happening. People can be amazingly acquiescent for long periods of time and then move extremely fast when the moment seems right to take action.

                        Speculation about repression that hasn't happened yet isn't helpful though. It almost always underemphasizes the considerable political costs involved in such measures and the dangers of popular backlash. There is a reason the government hasn't fired missiles against the many demonstrations of hundredsas of thopusands of people against this war and demanding immigrant rights. Its because they know such actions are just as likely to spark generalized revolt as they are to cow people into submission.

                        Repressing popular dissent is not primarily a technological question, but rather a political one. The state always has superior technologies of violence at its disposal than the populace. But it depends on a high degree of popular consent for its smooth day to day operations that it is loathe to abandon. Admittedly the Bush regime has really pushed the envelope in this regard, but it aint over yet.

                        I'm not arguing tha an explosion of popular and effective resistance is inevitable, only that it is possible. Whether it actually happens depends on our ability to overcome the crippling paralysis represented by the sorts of arguments you are making.

                        Build the Iraq Moratorium Fri., Sept. 21!
                        "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

                        by Christopher Day on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 07:02:02 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks Perhaps Only Soln. Progressive TV Network (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KenBee

                          Some good points Christopher, popular resistance IS still possible - and agree with your arguments about speculation of future repression is unhelpful and often unrealistic.

                          But popular dissent is only possible when a substantial percentage of a populance has the same knowledge, perceptions, and feelings that they share a common fate - like African Americans in the 1950'60' or youth under the draft during Vietnam.

                          In the Vietnam era - yes the media then did report unfairly - as an eyewitness to some of those events I know - BUT still you can't compare MSM then vs. now -  

                          What %age of americans read Blogs, or get unfiltered News from the Internets? -

                          Can we reverse even the destruction of PBS? I'm disgusted to see as recent as 2 weeks ago - Ray Suarez interviewing American Enterprise Institute guests.

                          Perhaps Our BEST hope might be a Nationwide campaign to get folks to Invest some of their $$ from current stocks or bonds into a NEW TV Network -devoted to a true Free Press.

                          Understand - I Will not give in - will continue to fight - Like many of us - I worked very hard resisting this System - In my case 20 hours a week for almost the last 3 years on 4 campaigns & re-organizing my county & state level party from within...

                          Thanks for encouragement.

                          Blind loyalty to self-defeating strategies is equally destructive as working for your enemy.

                          by Hiroprotag on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:39:41 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  One massacre started the American Revolution.... (4+ / 0-)

                    This was one of the more prominent precipitating events that ignited the American Revolution.

                    Also, recall your history: the Revolutionaries were few in number, as Tory Loyalists, Royalists and timid mouse colonists vastly outnumbered them. Just as we are today against our King prince george, the colonials most aware of, and therefore most sensitive to the abuses of power visited against them by King George III, were the best informed, and became the tip of the spear driven into the heart of English designs on the colonies.

                    "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

                    by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:01:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  As I read this (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  notimportant, wishingwell, kyril

                  I want to agree with you.  But I was in those streets several times the last few years.  Only to have the actions ignored -- so forget about the message.  I doubt such a thing could be organized, but if each marcher could also be calmly and methodically directed to his/her Senators and Rep's office to state credentials as a constituent and sign on to a petition (or whatever)...

                  Even if the elected official never saw the list, just insisting that a staff person make a note of your visit would at least get their attention.

                  The chips are down. Find your outrage.

                  by sj on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:42:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  This is absolutely ridiculous (9+ / 0-)

                Now let me get this straight - it is PROBABLE that Bush will get to declare martial law because our fellow citizens are so stupid that they won't notice it happening? "Hey, Mom there's a tank outside!" "Shush, honey, they are about to announce the winner of American Idol!"

                So, hey, I'm just going to paste the comment I left yesterday in another equally idiotic diary because I'm slack-jawed and watching "Jeopardy!"

                These are the kind of diaries I love to hate.

                Let's take the title first: "Bush declares martial law".

                I fail to see anywhere where King George declared martial law.  I read the Executive Order.  Didn't see a damn thing where it said "I declare martial law". "Martial Law" usually means rule of a civilian population by military authorities.  The following has not occurred in New York State:

                Governor Spitzer appears to still be governing my state.  My mayor (though a complete idiot) appears to still be in charge.  There are no black helicopters buzzing above my house.  I see no tanks in the streets.
                Nothing on the TV news about it, and it's funny - if martial law had been declared, and the military was now governing my state, with tanks in the streets, I kinda think it would be tough to keep under wraps.  
                Secondly, I had to go to the frigging whitehouse website to find out what the fuss was about.  I looked.  Am I happy? No, haven't been since 2000.  Do I think that this Executive Order means the feds will drain my bank account if I write a letter to the newspaper criticizing Bush's policy in Iraq? Who knows.  I rather doubt it, however.  If they drain mine, they are going to have to drain millions of bank accounts, because people are pissed off about Iraq. And let me tell you something, the FBI doesn't have the manpower to do that.  Hell, if you comandeered every federal agency to do such a thing, it would STILL take years.  And the judiciary wouldn't be happy about it, either.

                But, hey - engaging in this kind of idiocy is FUN.  Bush will NEVER leave.  The military will keep him in office (you mean, OUR military? OUR Army? Because, hey, they LOVE this guy.  They love multiple tours in Iraq.  Just ask 'em.)

                And hey, let's throw those 9/11 conspiracy theories in, and how UNFAIR it is that Markos won't let us post diaries about it so we can see them on Fox.

                And here's the part I love the most.  That totally elitist, arrogant part- "Country yawns, changes channels". Well, guess what, people.  These people you like to malign are also called VOTERS.  And we need a few of them in 2008.

                But hey, don't let a little thing like THAT stop you.  Those damn Dems.  NEVER do what we tell them to do 60 seconds after we order them to do it.  Now let's see - only got 52 votes, and couldn't stop the filibuster during the all nighter.  See, you need 60 votes to do that, and even more to overcome a veto.  But hey - let's blame those do-nothing Dems, anyway. It's so much more FUN.  

                We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

                by Mary Julia on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:30:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excellent (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mary Julia, Bouwerie Boy

                  I could not agree with you more

                •  AMEN! (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mary Julia, Bouwerie Boy, sinewave

                  People who post this kind of crap have ZERO respect for their fellow-Americans.  Sure, you can pull crap for a while, but there's that "all of them some of the time, some of them all of the time, but not all of them all of the time" reality that smacked Bush and the Republicans right in the middle of their fucking foreheads last November, and the sting hasn't gotten any better.  

                  Reality is so much less "fun" that histrionic crap citing Paul Craig Roberts.  Too bad reality doesn't get recommended as readily at Conspiracy crap.

                  The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                  by Dana Houle on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:39:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  BTW, ROBERTS IS A DAMN CONSPIRACIST! (4+ / 0-)

                    Paul Craig Roberts is batshit crazy.

                    From Wikipedia:

                    September 11, 2001 attacks

                    Of the 9/11 Commission Report he wrote in 2006, "One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations." (see Criticisms of the 9/11 Commission Report). He has reported what he says are findings by experts that conclude there is a large energy deficit in the official account of the collapse of the three WTC buildings, and says that this deficit remains unexplained.

                    Roberts, a supply-side economist, comments on the "scientific impossibility" of the official explanation for the events on 9/11 and says those engineers and physicists who accept this theory are wrong. On August 18, 2006, he wrote:

                       I will begin by stating what we know to be a solid incontrovertible scientific fact. We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to "pancake" at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false... Since the damning incontrovertible fact has not been investigated, speculation and "conspiracy theories" have filled the void. Some of the speculation is based on circumstantial evidence and is plausible. Other of the speculation is untenable, and it is used to protect the official explanation by branding all skeptics "conspiracy theorists." The Popular Mechanics article and the TV documentary are obviously false since they both endorse the official explanation that the WTC buildings "pancaked" at free fall speed, an obvious scientific impossibility. [4]

                    On September 14, 2006, he wrote:

                       The explanation that the three WTC buildings collapsed as a result of damage and fire is a mere assertion. The assertion is not backed up with scientific calculation to demonstrate that the energy from the airliners, fire, and gravity were sufficient to collapse the buildings. A number of independent authorities believe that there is a very large energy deficit in the official account of the collapse of the buildings. Until this issue is resolved, the official explanation is merely an assertion no matter who believes it. [4]

                    On September 7, 2006,he wrote:

                       I do not know what happened on 9/11, and I don’t expect to ever find out. Neither government nor media show any interest in providing us with anything except a political commission’s report. [4]

                    Based on his idiotic, frothing rantings about the towers being brought down by something other than two jets filled with fuel crashing in to them, he'd be banned at Daily Kos for propogating conspiracy crap.  And that's the source for this diary?!?!?!?!?

                    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                    by Dana Houle on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:43:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, You're a Gatekeeper (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Ranting Roland

                      Hey, Pal, I've studied this issue A LOT more extensively than you have.  Why are you afraid of the seeking the truth?

                      •  Then You're a Moron (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Runs With Scissors

                        And I love your "argument" to counter mine that Roberts is a kook.  

                        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                        by Dana Houle on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 02:53:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Again Now, Moron (0+ / 0-)

                          I guess you were talking to me, so I'll ask again, why are you afraid of the truth.

                          Regarding Roberts, my enemy's enemy is my friend.  Got it?

                          •  Your Comment is Spam (4+ / 0-)

                            Come up with an argument or some legitimate sources or your comments will continue to be spam.

                            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                            by Dana Houle on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 07:43:05 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Pretty interesting member here DHinMI (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, KenBee

                            Almost no comments or anything until they appeared in this absurd CT diary yesterday. Since that time they have been exhibiting a level of hostility which is quite strange for a new participant at this weblog.

                            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                            by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:12:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Anytime... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            brentmack

                            Anytime anyone mentions ANYTHING about 9/11, and what the implications of a full, independent report might bring to light, whatever site the comment may be on is aggressively denied.  Anyone stating anything of the sort is instantly labeled a "kook" or a "conspiracy theorist" or something similar.

                            What's more, it happens sometimes within minutes to mere hours of the posting of a COMMENT on a board, much less an actual post/diary entry/whatever.  This lends credence to the reports that it potentially the use of programs such as Megaphone, or the other "internet warrior" programs that is allowing such rapid and total response.

                            Sorry, but any CRIME SCENE in which the EVIDENCE is carted away and sold, wholesale, to other countries for scrap metal before forensic scientists can analyze it should raise huge alarms.  The refusal to release a single, solitary image of a 757 crashing into the Pentagon, in SIX YEARS, when it is one of the most monitored and filmed buildings on the PLANET, also raises some serious questions about the veracity of the official report.

                          •  That's right because nutty 911 CT comments (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, KenBee

                            violate the owner's posting guidelines at his website. There are plenty of places on the internet to post this crap moderation. Take your questions there or your complaints about site rules to the owner. Otherwise, give it a rest.

                            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                            by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:50:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You ARE Laughable (0+ / 0-)

                            Ha-ha-ha...

                          •  O, BTW, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, KenBee

                            for those of us here who police the 911 CT garbage, no special software tools are required to find them. Absurd diaries like this act as buglights for CT postings. Sorry if that fact clashes with the foil.

                            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                            by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:54:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            brentmack

                            First of all, I do NOT think the Bush administration planned or took an active role in 9/11.  I do think the have been capitalizing on it politically in the grossest manner possible.  I also believe they know WHO did it.  They ARE covering up evidence, and that is suspicious behavior, especially with regards to such an important attack on our soil.  Are they covering for Israel?  I don't know, but that is certainly the response that garners the most aggressive "new posters attack pattern".  It is also not, IMHO, the most likely (even with the precedent set by Israel, proving that they are willing to commit a false flag against an ALLY to drag them into a conflict).  Are they covering for Saudi Arabia?  I think this one is FAR MORE LIKELY.  Especially when you consider that they are KEEPING UP this sort of protection for this particular "ally", refusing to acknowledge publicly that the Saudis are the ones backing up a much larger percentage of the Iraqi insurgents that are killing American soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and otherwise involved in the horrific quagmire we are currently stuck in.

                            Second, I was simply pointing out the recently-common correlation between 9/11 posts, and the appearance of "new" posters who wholly post endless diatribes bashing, mocking, or otherwise attacking anyone who posts about these subjects.  This was not intended as "9/11 CT garbage".

                            I do respect DKOS' desire to have no posts about "9/11 conspiracy".  Pointing out that the administration has covered up evidence does not mean that they were themselves responsible for the attack.

                            One must STILL ask, "Why do they refuse to show the images of a 757 crashing into the Pentagon?"  How is that not a legitimate question?  One...single...image.  One.  Uno.  Ichi.  One.  It is very suspicious behavior to refuse to show such an important image to REINFORCE THEIR OWN MESSAGE, if they do possess such an image.

                            One must still ALSO ask, "Why did they sell off all that material as scrap metal before forensics could do their job?"  At the MINIMUM, you would have thought they'd keep the material around so that THE MEMORIAL TO 9/11 COULD BE MADE FROM THE SCRAPS OF THE RUINED BUILDINGS.  Again, it's very suspicious behavior with no explanation whatsoever, and it would never happen in any conventional crime scene.

                          •  Thank You (0+ / 0-)

                            If I could be a little calmer about the subject matter, I would have chose your words.  But calling legitimate questions "CT garbage" just sets me off - ESPECIALLY when it's coming from folks who are allegedly on my side of the political fence.

                            To my mind, they're just enablers.  And I cannot begin to fathom what's going on inside their minds.

                          •  Police This (0+ / 0-)

                            You sound just like Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly.  That's something, my friend, that I'm proud that I would be accused of.

                            But I'm not going to fight with you.  You've made your opinion irrelevant.  See ya!  

                          •  What was your last user name? n/t (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, KenBee

                            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                            by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 09:20:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, You Got It Boy (0+ / 0-)

                            Yes indeed, genius.  Maybe I'm a Republican mole who's advocating investigating potential crimes by BushCo.

                            Yeah, that's the ticket.  Not!

                            I'm simply not at all impressed by the lackadaisical attitude of people willing to give Bush/Cheney a pass on the crime of the millennium.  

                            I guess I'm just a little more liberal and care more deeply about this country than you do.  Now put that in your "absurd CT" pipe and smoke it.

                            And you know what, Bouwerie Boy?  Until just now, I'd never heard of YOU in my entire 50+ year life.  So my "almost no comments" is that supposed to mean something?  You crack me up!

                            And you're damn right that I'm hostile to your kind.  I hate dictators.  What's your excuse?

                            Lead, follow or get out the way.  Or in this case, just go do some homework.  

                          •  Why is it that these kinds of commenters (5+ / 0-)

                            always have to sound like self-absorbed, self-important, pompous, conceited peacocks with delusions of superiority and bladder control issues?

                            Sometimes I think it's really, like, five guys in their underwear, all typing under different names.

                    •  If the source weren't bad enough, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Runs With Scissors

                      and the conclusions weren't absurd enough, the fact that this crap remains on the rec list says nothing good about this community.

                    •  Umm..hardly frothing (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mary Julia

                      Based on you batshit crazy assertion, I would have expected some quotes that mentioned aliens or the freemasons. Not sure these particular quotes help your argument.

                      We agree that it is sad that this diary has been recommended. Yet we have both been inexplicably enticed to read it..Come on, the title? We knew where this was headed.

                  •  To The Diarist, RE: Paul Craig Roberts (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mary Julia, Bouwerie Boy, MikePhoenix

                    You write:

                    But I will emphasize that this article was not written because I raised the alarm, but because a former Reagan official raised the alarm, and he raised in it no uncertain terms. Now, if someone can present evidence why Paul Craig Roberts is not credible, other then his former disparaging of Democrats (my, he was a partisan, imagine that) and if someone can specifically show why his arguments are ridiculous, that will give me and others some peace of mind.

                    Have you heard of Google?  C'mon, it's really not that hard to at least make a cursory check on a source, especially one who has such an extensive wikipedia entry.  And look at what pops up near the top of a Google search: links to prisonplanet, and rense, and NewsMax and all kinds of other whackjob places.  And if you scroll down a little further, you see at SourceWatch that he's got a slew of postings at Counterpunch (which is a rag, and Alexander Cockburn is one of the least credible supposed "leftists" around), and at my favorite place for gullible progressives to be taken in by genocide deniers, antisemites, and unrepentant xenophobic and racist nativists--Antiwar.com, which is NOT a legitimate source

                    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  When relying on sources who seem to be making extraordinary claims, at least spend five minutes on Google before trumpeting those claims on Daily Kos.

                    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                    by Dana Houle on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:03:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Can't do that (3+ / 0-)

                      Extraordinary cliams reap extraoridnary attention for the one making the claim.  Who could bear to disavow the spoptlight in favor of, Oh shit, I should'a done a little research and thought about this before I posted it.

                    •  You're Right... (0+ / 0-)

                      I let the guy's position as a former undersecretary of the Treasury for Reagan to let me assume he is credible.

                      I guess if the President of the United States is a kook, I should not have assumed that.

                      Believe me, I want what Roberts says to be a kook job and not based in reality.

                      If that is true, then that is a relief.

                      I could care less how my diary does if what I say is full of shit.

                      Of course, when you ask for proof, you are asking someone to prove an OPINION of what may happen based on things this person has observed and based on his own experience in the halls of power.

                      And frankly, I have seen enough on my own to consider Roberts OPINION credible.

                      Now, Roberts did not say tanks in the street and suspension of elections - I did. He merely said we are headed toward a dictatorship and frankly as I have said before, we already live in a dictatorship with the signing of the Military Commissions Act last fall.

                      If you are totally comfortable with the President having the right to suspend your Habeas Corpus rights by merely declaring you an enemy combantant, and you don't consider that dictatorial, well that's an intersting perspective.

                •  You're Waaaay Behind the Curve (0+ / 0-)

                  Hate to break it to you, but most of what you offered up sounded like Sean Hannity talking points.

                  I mean, where have you been?  Or did you merely quit keeping track of BushCo's trickery.

                  This ain't your father's democratic republic anymore.

                  I'm fine if you don't want to be alarmed about the present danger we face.  But don't belittle those who are very firm ground in sounding the warning.

            •  I am ready at a moments notice.. (17+ / 0-)

              I will make sure and wear my potato suit for when the bring out the large microwave zappers. Who's bringing the sour cream and chives? http://www.globalresearch.ca/...

              "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

              by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:47:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The Orange Revolution begins on July 23 (28+ / 0-)

              The Orange Revolution Begins in Six Days. Will You Be A Part of It?

              On July 23, 2002, the head of British intelligence reported that Bush and Cheney were intent on invading Iraq and planned to "fix the intelligence and facts around the policy"--i.e. lie to do so. Five years later a million people have died as a direct result of these lies and there's no end in sight. Meanwhile, torture has been institutionalized, habeaus corpus eviscerated, and illegal spying made routine. New Orleans lies devastated--along with our Constitution and the rule of law. And Bush and Cheney are making a mockery of the Democrats' feeble gestures towads accountability.

              Enough is enough and this July 23rd a new phase in the movement for peace and justice will be launched. We call it the Orange Revolution because starting that day will wearing orange will signify that you want Congress to START IMPEACHMENT and STOP THE WAR. The majority of Americans want to see Bush and Cheney impeached and want an immediate end to this war. But they are rendered largely invisible by a complicit corporate media. Wearing or displaying orange will be our signal to one another--and to the world--about where we stand. Anything orange will do: a t-shirt, a wristband, a ribbon--get creative and post your images and ideas on ImpeachSpace.com. Here are a couple of items to get you started:

              Orange "Drive out the Bush Regime" bandanas

              Available at http://www.worldcantwait.net/

              Orange "Impeach Bush and Cheney" t-shirts

              Available at http://www.beachblogger.net/...

              The Orange Revolution will be launched with acts of civil disobedience in Washington and elsewhere to show Congress that we are serious.

              In D.C., Cindy Sheehan, Ray McGovern, Rev. Lennox Yearwood, Col. Ann Wright, Debra Sweet, Dave Lindorff, David Swanson, Jodie Evans, Medea Benjamin, Kevin Zeese, Tina Richards, and others will march from Arlington National Cemetary to the office of Congressman John Conyers. They will sit in Conyers' office reciting the U.S. Constitution until they are either arrested or he agrees to start impeachment. All are welcome to join them. See http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/... for time and location.

              Similar actions will take place at the offices of Rep. Howard Berman in California, Rep. Pete Visclosky in Indiana, and Rep. Conyers' district offices in Detroit. If you are willing to risk going to jail for justice you are encouraged to go to Washington or to stage a sit-in at your own Representative's district office. See http://www.democrats.com/... for more information and tools to help you organize this.

              If you cannot participate in civil disobedience, please wear orange in solidarity with those that are and please call Congressman Conyers that day and ask him to move on impeachment: (202) 225-5126.

              The march in D.C. is also part of Cindy Sheehan's Journey for Humanity from Crawford, Texas to New York City. Participants in this Journey for Humanity share the goals of ending the occupation of Iraq, impeaching Cheney and Bush, restoring New Orleans, and funding human needs at home and in Iraq and Afghanistan. The march will include stops at the district offices of House Judiciary Committee Members Mel Watt, Howard Coble, and Bobby Scott along the way, before arriving in Washington, D.C., on July 23rd. For more information and to get involved visit http://www.thecampcaseypeaceinstitut...

              Essential Viewing: Bill Moyers on Impeachment

              On Friday, PBS aired a one-hour special on impeachment featuring Bruce Fein, Deputy Attorney General under Ronald Reagan and well-known Republican, and John Nichols, author of "The Genius of Impeachment" and well-known Democrat, both arguing for impeachment.

              If there's one video to share with your friends and family who are still skeptical about impeachment, this is it. Fein and Nichols argue with passion and eloquence that the necessity of impeaching both Bush and Cheney is not about politics, but about salvaging our Constitutional form of government.

              Watch the video at http://www.pbs.org/...
              and pass it along!

               
              How to Get Impeachment into the Next Democratic Presidential Debate

              Also on July 23rd, the Democratic presidential candidates will take part in an evening debate run by CNN, Google, and Youtube.  You can submit your own questions on video to the candidates through Youtube--and everybody can vote for which questions they most want to see asked. Right now a question about impeachment is the second most popular video out of more than a thousand submitted.

              Please go to http://www.communitycounts.us/... and help vote that video up to number one. And please use the search feature on the site to look for other videos on impeachment and vote those up too!

              And let's flood the site with more questions about impeachment! All you need is to video yourself for thirty seconds and put it up on YouTube. No fancy equipment necessary--a webcam or video shot on your camera is just fine. Be sure to include the word "impeachment" in your video's title so everybody can find it.

               

              Edwards puts healthcare reform on the table in a very credible way and is tough enough to make HR 676,....the ultimate goal, achievable.

              by fayeforcure on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:03:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Here is the home of "impeachment porn" (8+ / 0-)

              Wherever the answer, it is not at Daily Kos. Dailykos is now an extension of the established power structure. It's membership, for the most part, knows the truth about what is happening to the Nation, but the means to effect change will not be found here. Leftist Democrats are vilified here where destructive Republicans are adulated by the owner and leaders of the site.

              I vacillate between the possibility that the Democratic Party doesn't object to the new dictatorship, or in the alternative, they truly are as pathologically naive about what is happening as they claim. Which it is doesn't matter, the fact is that our hope will not be found here or through the oppisition party.

              The question is, who will lead the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party to crash those gates.

              •  I don't believe that (5+ / 0-)

                the Democrats don't object.

                I believe that any of them left who would be willing to rise up and make a difference on this have been seriously threatened in some way. I really do.

                Call me CT, I don't care. These are not stupid people. They know EXACTLY what's going on, and yet they are doing little more than "sending letters" with "strongly-worded rebukes". This does nothing more than give the appearance that something is being done. Yet...the tyrants are still in power, aren't they? So NOTHING is being done.

                The true opposition appears to have been stopped from taking any meaningful action. One supposes that "anthrax talks and bullshit walks" is a possibility here as well.

                This cannot wait until 2009. These goons need to be removed NOW.

                "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"--Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil

                by o the umanity on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:31:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Wherever the answer, it is not at Daily Kos. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lifexpert

                Oh, so true.  I'm appalled at much of the attitude that I see displayed.  

                Unfortunately, these are revolutionary times, folks.  Way too many seem to be bringing a knife to a gunfight.

                Very disappointing!

                •  is there a particular place (0+ / 0-)

                  we should all be looking?

                  The one real answer I know of involves grabbing the pitchforks and taking a stroll up to DC--but, well, I can't do that alone.

                  "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"--Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil

                  by o the umanity on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 06:41:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  This is complete, unadulterated bullshit (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dems2004, KenBee

                Wherever the answer, it is not at Daily Kos. Dailykos is now an extension of the established power structure. It's membership, for the most part, knows the truth about what is happening to the Nation, but the means to effect change will not be found here. Leftist Democrats are vilified here where destructive Republicans are adulated by the owner and leaders of the site

                How dare you post this here.  Listen, nitwit, if you really believe this, then get the hell out of here.  There are plenty of places on the Web you can post this crap.

                I'd troll rate you, but it would be a waste of a rating.  I DARE you to post any evidence showing that Repubs are adulated by Kos and the Frontpagers.

                These are the kind of comments that appear in these ridiculous "the sky is falling" diaries. I can't believe this piece of crap is STILL on the frontpage.  

                We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

                by Mary Julia on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 07:59:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  pick a day, I'm there n/t (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              brentmack, kyril

              "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"--Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil

              by o the umanity on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:23:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We need to stop asking "when?" (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dus7, lynmar, brentmack, Bikemom, kyril, KimD

              Instead ask "where?" or TELL people where to go.  

              We need to mobilize and get ourselves OUT THERE.  Not just in D.C., but any major metropolitan area or wee local town.  I'm beyong a white rage at this point.  My country's precious democracy is falling and people don't seem to care!

              •  Cindy Sheehan has an idea. Coming, smugbug? (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gravitylove, lifexpert, brentmack, kyril

                Anyone who wants to know where to go, when to go, and what to do once there, just needs to start here.

                That's all there is to it. Move your collective butts from your "safe" seats at home/office/wherever, and get them out in front of your consumerism-drugged, fear-addled fellow citizens, doing something purposeful that wakes everyone to the same cause: our survival as a country.

                If you aren't spurred to focused, purposeful action by WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, you're either off your meds, out of excuses, or a sorry-ass American citizen.

                "It is impossible to respect any man or woman who, confronted with the imminent destruction of all he or she holds sacred, responds passively in the face of the gathering threat." (Anon.)

                "We must all hang together, or assuredly, we will all hang separately." (Ben Franklin)

                Difficult challenges summon the greatest heroes.

                C'mon, be a smart hero; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

                "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

                by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:22:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  We have taken to the streets but the media under (7+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sj, moiv, Ritter, eddienic, brentmack, nodal aim, kyril

              underplays it.  I have marched with probably 10,000 people and the local news called it hundreds. Gave it a small piece on page 5. Sounds like no one's protesting, but we are!

              Back in the 70's people marched because we were students.  Now everyone has a day job, a family, etc. It's a lot harder.  Gotta get those kids on campus involved - it's actually their future - they will be the ones to be drafted to Iraq (or Iran).

              I keep going to the rallies & marches, but it isn't working. Gotta think outside the box. Code Pink has great ideas to pressure our congresscritters, maybe that's the way.  

              Next time I tell you someone from Texas should NOT be president of the United States, please pay attention. In Memory of Molly Ivins, 1944-2007

              by truebeliever on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:29:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, keep marching. Media be damned, people (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                truebeliever, kyril

                are seeing the rallies for themselves, and joining by word-of-mouth, etc. We need to be visible to other people, not the general public, but to those most likely to join in. Once our numbers are too many for the "shaministration" to bottle us up, the "media" will "discover" us, and scramble to get out ahead of the sea change. Watch, but pleasepleaseplease don't wait for the rest of us to do this for you.

                "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

                by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:28:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Start this Sunday at ENOUGH rallies! (4+ / 0-)

              I am an L.A. Kossack who has been attending the ENOUGH demonstrations the past two Sunday's in front of the Federal Building in Westwood. Wes Clark Jr. and Cenk Uyger of The Young Turks started this rally and our numbers are growing!

              I have attended the L.A. Kos gatherings in the past but am dismayed that I have yet to see any Angelino Kossacks there.  Last weekend four of the attendees drove 3 hours from Kernville to attend!

              Many here claim that demonstrations do no good and are outdated. I say Bullshit! It's so easy to demonstrate from the comfort of your homes in front of your computer, but typing to the choir is simply not enough.  There are millions of Americans that do not blog or get their news from the Internet and need awakening.  I think it is OUR job to awaken them.

              Standing on a corner for ONE HOUR a week is really not that hard, especially when you consider that a year from now we may not have that right anymore!  We actually have fun.  I have been bringing a 'Honk to Impeach' sign and it is SOOOOO gratifying to hear just how many passersby AGREE with us!  Believe me, it's not easy to drag myself over there on a Sunday afternoon when there are about a million other things I'd rather do!  But then I remembered that No One reported on MSM (to my knowledge) about Bush's Executive Order, or Miers defying Congress again, etc. etc. etc. (fill in your own here)

              For details about ENOUGH, visit The Young Turks site here, and I hope to see you there Sunday at Noon!

              http://www.theyoungturks.com/

            •  I agree with you, but (0+ / 0-)

              in order to do this one must not advocate violence of any kind. Especially with the new draconian executive order.

              Even before this, back as far as the '30's and '60's, demonstrators were subject to violent beatings, murders and police riots. With the new laws it will require even more repudiation of violence and better organization than we have seen to date.  

              I doubt that many of our generals would hesitate to open fire on or arrest demonstrators today. The current senior officer class is totally political and driven by god lust.

              Leave the matter of religion to the family altar.... Keep the church and state forever separate. U.S.Grant

              by shigeru on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:03:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why don't Kossacks, organize this? (0+ / 0-)

              Is that something Kos would sanction? Do you think there would be enough interest within the community? There is going to be a big protest in DC in September, I think, but who's to say there can't be another one, or even multiple protests throughout the country--there are about 200,000 registered users on the site, right?  

          •  It IS in the hands of the people (24+ / 0-)

            It may be/probably is too late for impeachment.  There was a narrow window period during which impeachment proceedings may have succeeded in righting some of the wrongs, but we passed that last exit a short while ago.  It's now too late to simply get off the autobahn to authoritarianism or whatever other form the new order will take.  All that's left is a civil uprising, which likely would be quelled in very short order.  I am scared; I have been scared for several years.  I have never believed they would let go the levers of power on their own volition.

            Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

            by vigilant meerkat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:42:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  May I also suggest someone... (28+ / 0-)

            ...anyone...perhaps Sean Penn or maybe Dennis Kucinich...

            organize the largest protest ever organized in Washington.  Not some measly 1 million man march (no disrespect).  I mean 5-10 million converging around the  White House or the Capitol Building.

            Why can't a nation of over 300 million do this?

            Have a TV / radio fundraising drive so that you can transport people to D.C.

            This can be done if you want it to happen.

            And no one is going to ignore this many people coming to Washington.

            This is at at Taipei 1 million person protest over the Anti-secession law passed by China in 2005.  I was there.  It was an absolutely amazing thing to see.  And it was organized in weeks (with a population of 23 million in that country).  

            •  Sean Penn couldn't rally 5,000... (8+ / 0-)

              ...let alone 5 million, I fear.

              Obama?  That guy could get a million people on their feet.

              "Don't you dare speak to us like we work for you." - Ben Harper

              by The Termite on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:55:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Could anyone really do this? (6+ / 0-)

              It seems difficult to get that 1 million people together.  Can anyone actually believe 5-10 million?  And then there's the po-lice requiring permits and "free speech zones" (THAT was the first clear signal that freedom was dying in this country - THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS A FREE SPEECH ZONE GODDAMNIT!).

              I'd actually prefer NO permits as part of the resistance:  it would be impossible for the police in DC to deal with 5-10 million people so I'd say, "SCREW permits and FUCK 'free speech zones'" and make it ALL one huge-ass civil disobedience...

              But there is the issue of actually getting 5-10 million American Idol-watching, Paris-Hilton-worshiping people to stand up, let alone stand up for the Constitution and freedom.

              Reichstag fire is to Hitler as 9/11 is to Bush

              by praedor on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:28:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Fuck free speech zones. (7+ / 0-)

                Fuck permits. We must make no concessions to the criminals in our government.

                Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

                by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:34:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Fuck a permit~! n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                playtonjr, kyril
              •  It could happen... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mmacdDE, kyril

                A million people on the national mall is a possibility, especially if "COUP IN US?" headlines start popping up in local papers. Also, imagine the response if any type of martial law were declared. People don't seem to realize their freedoms are going, because they can't see warrantless wiretapping. But, tell someone they can't drive their car whenever they want to, and you have a rabid citizen.

                Even with "free speech zones", I could imagine a few million people on the mall. it would go like this if the police tried to corral people:
                "Oh, I'm just a tourist."
                "Oh, I'm just here to see my Uncle's name on the Vietnam Memorial.
                "I work here."
                "Just taking a walk."

                or, in my case

                "This is my lunch break. I do freelance research at the Library of Congress."

            •  STOP, please note that this shot is from high (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mayan, Annalize5, empathy, Noor B, brentmack, kyril

              above the massive crowds.  When one million of our fellow Americans marched against the war, all the photos were CLOSE-UPS, because high points were out of bounds, by DESIGN.

              When the American people see that huge masses are converging on the White House, they'll get the picture loud and clear that revolution is in the air.  Without proof, they will stay in their homes, hoping for the "radicals" to be taken off the streets, because that's what KKKarl Rove's media will tell them to believe.

            •  5-10 million $5 donations? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ritter, louavul

              I've given money to Edwards, I gave money to Dean and I gave a little money to Kerry.  But I mostly avoid making donations to candidates.  The reason is that I see the party infrastructure as more important.

              If the Presidential candidates would ask for people to give to their local party organizations, especially the ones that will be doing the GOTV effort on their own streets, we'll see more Democrats elected than ever before in history.  1932 would look like practice.

              So yes, we need a march of 5-10 million people.  We need that march to go from the couch in front of the Television down to the local party office with a demand.  We will do what you need us to do to win, if you support our desire to see this administration thrown in jail without the possibility of a pardon.

              If Democrats have a pre-911 view of the world, Republicans have a pre-July 4th view of the world.

              by chadlupkes on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:02:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  According to the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            Declaration of Independence, we don't even need to wait for Congress.

            They can continue to ignore this shit at THEIR own peril.

            "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"--Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil

            by o the umanity on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:22:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Send a copy of this to your Congress members. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Libby Shaw, kyril

            "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

            by Owllwoman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:08:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Congress needs to be reminded about now, . . . (0+ / 0-)

            . . . it seems to me, that for the moment they still hold some power in what's left of our representative government.  Absent any Congressional action now, that power will be gone in the next Republican regime (beginning in 2009), or the endless continuation of the current one, whichever it is.

            Senator Feingold made it clear here the other day that the "Congressional leadership" is not going to serve the people over the objections of the "Congressional leadership's" corporate owners just because it's the right thing to do.  They may, however, still be amenable to the argument that if they want to hold on to any shred of their own power, they'd better get busy and start impeaching--and convicting--like crazy.

            This, I think, should be the theme of all future petitions addressed to Congress.

            "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." -- White Rose letter no. 1

            by keikekaze on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Don't misunderestimate the power of We the People (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MikePhoenix

            These clowns couldn't handle NOLA after a hurricane. They sure as hell will screw up martial law. No offense to clowns intended.

            Given the authoritarian structure of the right-wing hegemony, there will be only a few individuals (or one dick) calling the shots. He is in poor health (may deity rest his soul). chertoff? Give me a break.

            shrub's evil minister, a refugee from Revenge of the Nerds, IV knows how to control the media, but he's a weak little coward when it comes right down to it. He's got the Napoleon complex without the Napoleon courage.

            Will our military leadership fall in behind the gang who couldn't shoot straight... or the gang who hid under their beds during Viet Nam? Some evangelicals from the Air Force, maybe and certainly that lap dog, pace, will support the coup, but I doubt that bushco will enjoy the widespread support of the military leadership.

            Worse case scenario, we will have a civil war between a divided military. I'll take my chances with the good guys. Once bushco has lost its last shred of the illusion of legitimacy, its regime is toast.

            You can conjure up any kind of fearful war game your nightmares will allow. That's what the evil-doers like napoleon rove count on. They feed off of fear.

            Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.

            by gravitylove on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 04:21:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  then why exactly.... (0+ / 0-)

            ...were you demanding that pelosi put impeachment back on the table? that sounds like the same old bureaucractic bullshit to me.

            The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

            by FemiNazi on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:42:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Russ Finegold made it prfectly clear right here.. (14+ / 0-)

          in his last diary on Dailykos that Congress has no will or intention of 'stepping up to the plate' per se....

          when we, who call for IMPEACHMENT, have lost Russ Finegold we have lost the battle to get congress to help us protect and defend our constitution from the enemies within....

          the Bush Cabal counts on the majority of America to still be of the belief that 'it cant happen here" but Joe Conason shows us that:

          It Can Happen Here: Authoritarian Peril in the Age of Bush

          From Publishers Weekly
          Sinclair Lewis's 1935 novel It Can't Happen Here envisaged a right-wing populist president, advised by a cunning political strategist and backed by a cynical alliance of religious fundamentalists and corporations, who uses security threats to consolidate dictatorial powers, destroy civil liberties and establish folksy fascism. This is a virtual blueprint for the current Bush administration, a "corrupt and authoritarian ruling clique" that accords the president "the prerogatives of a king

          IMPEACH THE CHEERLEADER... SAVE THE WORLD! © ®

          by KnotIookin on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:48:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well add this to you list of worries . . . (58+ / 0-)

        Here's what I wrote as a comment in another diary, and I'll say it again here.

        Mr. Bush is deeply mentally ill . . .

        He has a profound mental illness and someone fearless like Keith needs to start really beating this drum.

        I'm very serious here, it is very clear, Mr. Bush is delusional and needs hospitalization--I'm sure his family is aware of this and they're all hoping his enablers will prop him up until the bitter end.

        It's one thing for journalists to beat their chests and say how delusional he is, it's quite another to say that someone needs to get this guy medical attention--before he kills all of us.

        This is very scary stuff.

        •  What about Cheney, the real power (48+ / 0-)

          'behind the throne'? It's not mental illness. It's sociopathy, which is the intentional infliction of great harm without conscience.

          The coup occurred on December 12, 2000. The plot started with the Powell memo. They will not slink away on January 20, 2009. All Congress does is window dressing to pull the wool over the eyes while the destruction of Constitutional government continues.......unless impeachment is effected. Impeachment is all that is left to save the republic.

          •  It's ruthlessness, pure and simple (16+ / 0-)

            And in it's most evil, shameless, cold and sneering form.

            Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

            by vigilant meerkat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:49:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly, the bloodless coup was enacted 12/12/00 (38+ / 0-)

            From studying the Bush family and by extension, their inner circle and supporters, I knew that we were headed for serious trouble as a nation.

            I have been sick at heart since the Democrats rolled over and did not vigorously contest the "selection" in 2000, and I NEVER FUCKING SUPPORTED THIS 'SELECTION', I never flew flags, and I never "rah, rah" patriotic, either.

            The events of 9/11 had a profound effect on me and my family.  To trust a Bush or a Cheney is like trusting evil itself.  My suspicious mind's thoughts were confirmed when it was revealed that they knew that an attack was imminent and they did nothing about it.  Further more, our airforce stood down and did not defend our nation.  

            Because of 9/11, I have two family members serving in the military; one nephew in Afghanistan serving his second tour of duty, and a young cousin who is trying to survive his second tour in Baghad without proper body armor and vehicles.  

            This new push for attacking Iran is all in their master plan, in order to provoke a situation that would require them to stay in power due to executive order.  

            Elections were so 2000.  

            Unless we rise up, we are certainly doomed as a country as there is no turning back. (just like in Germany of the 30's, when the madman Hitler rose to power and started WWII by invading Poland)

            Impeach the bastards, settle for nothing less.

            by Do Tell on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:56:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have one question that no one . . . (35+ / 0-)

              has ever answered.

              Why did the American people tolerate a stolen election?

              Why weren't the American people in the steeets?  I was ready, but where was everyone else?

              •  nyceve, At that point (2000) most people (15+ / 0-)

                still believed that the "system" would sort things out fairly. Now six years later the scales have fallen from the eyes of everyone who is not a snake.

                I want to hear somebody asking them why They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are But theyre never the ones to fight or to die - J. Brown

                by OHdog on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:11:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I have no idea. It might have been because (18+ / 0-)

                there was still peace and prosperity, 9/11 had not occurred, and the vast majority thought that Bush would be like "Reagan Lite".  All of those Reagan Democrats and religious wingnuts (not to mention MSM) were in favor of another Republican administration.

                Also, the MSM was simply extending the same courtesy to the Republicans that they had done during the entire Clinton administration, which was to demonize, ridicule and support fallacious accusations against liberals.

                No horn was sounded, no bell was rung, no one asked the hard questions of precedent.

                And here we are today, with a virtual dictatorship controlling the WH, the Supreme court, and the Republican leadership.  

                My questions is, what will get the people in the streets?  Tanks rolling through their cities?  The Democratic leadership jailed because they are judged to be subversive to Bush's goals?  Total martial law?  The freezing of their assets?  

                I find it quite ironic that we are reversing roles with the rest of the world.

                Impeach the bastards, settle for nothing less.

                by Do Tell on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:15:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Watching TV? (12+ / 0-)

                Watching Survivor instead of reality? Note how the media are in on the plot. Most people just weren't informed or suspicious enough to recognize the threat.

                Additionally, we're all too soft, as a culture. It takes real hardship to have the moxie it takes to read the tea leaves and take action. Read Maccabee's An Inconvenient Gardener:    

                "When Moses inherited the Hebrew slaves, he had people who complained. Some wanted to go back to the Pharoahs. These Hebrews did not know how to feed themselves. They were good laborers but had no leadership skills. Moses didn't wander in the desert for 40 years because he was lost. He wandered because he wanted that generation to die in the desert and new one, tempered by the harsh life in the Sinai, they would go into the Promised Land. Now, go into a mall the next time you're in town. In any town. Look at the kids. Ever attend a focus group and listen to what young Americans say and think? Ask yourself, is this the generation that will pull America back together? This one? The one that thinks the world is 6000 years old and that it's OK to be famous for nothing? Are these kids going to recreate the manufacturing giants that built this country? Remember, revolution comes from men with rocks in their hands, not rocks in their heads."
                ......
                    He also said this: "The Democrats and other naive Americans are expecting an election to make it all better. There will be a tipping point I hear people say. No. It will be a slow grind. It will take years and years to get to the truth, and when it comes out, the next generation won't care. Democrats in Congress are not much different than the Republicans. I mean think about this. With Republicans not even liked by Republicans, the Democrats cannot find a champion that everyone agrees to. Probably this country will look like Argentina. Slow creeping paramilitary control that stifles everyone. And then one day it all slowly unravels. In Argentina, like in the US, the Police look just like the Army Special Forces. Sometimes they are the same. It helped Argentina when the British defeated them at the Falklands Island War. It will take something big like that to start the movement backwards. That or possibly a progressive church movement will turn America around the way nuns saved El Salvador."

                •  Good quote, Halcyon, but a quibble (8+ / 0-)

                  There are a lot of sharp, committed great kids who aren't hanging out at the mall.  When I attend children's performances, such as plays or concerts, it always strikes me that while the dire news is blasting us all, these kids are quietly practicing their instruments, rehearsing their parts, exercising tirelessly.  It always makes me feel so much more hopeful than the "news" ever does.  And I'll tell you my, now adult, kids are sharp, hardworking, and committed.  And you can bet they have a clue about what's going on.  I don't think they're that uncommon.  At least I hope not.

                  The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                  by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:36:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, of course there are great kids (4+ / 0-)

                    who are on the ball.

                    I think it really comes down to having lived our lives in a country that was lawful, with excellent infrastructure, good government, and prosperous. We expect things to work without effort. We haven't had to read between the lines and create a grey market, local barter economy in order to meet our needs until now. We, as a people, are becoming aware, but we are still in denial.

                    •  And TV has addled our brains (8+ / 0-)

                      so that "reality" is difficult to name.  Sloppy thinking, a confused sense of community and purpose, inability to distinguish reality--I lay all these ills at the feet of mass media.

                      A thread running through eastern thought is the immense time and effort required to escape illusion, to see the world with accuracy.  As a culture, we have been running in the opposite direction.  Is it any wonder that people are out of touch with what is real?

                      Just one example:  a lot of seemingly intelligent people argue that Bush shouldn't be impeached because the Clinton impeachment "poisoned the well."  To me, this "thinking" fails the simplest tests of logic and reality. We could both go on and on, I'm sure, with examples of the absurd arguments which have been polluting the public square for years now.

                      Despite the easy life, I hold out hope that we will prove ourselves to be tough still, if given the chance.

                      The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                      by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:47:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  They said the same thing (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    geomoo, kyril

                    about my generation. Now we're part of the generation that is either causing our problems, or are in the best position to solve them. We all change, our kids will too. I still have faith in them.

                    ...no hell below us, above us only sky.

                    by rightiswrong on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:12:27 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  kids working hard, planning, turning off the TV (0+ / 0-)

                    and then wondering if Liberty University might be a decent choice after all.

                    "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

                    by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:29:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  The only people in the streets (12+ / 0-)

                were the fako Republican "rent-a-protestor" during the vote count.

                •  Don't you remember (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  side pocket, kyril

                  Jesse Jackson being told to stand down? We were ready to go but everyone said "let the process run it's course." We should have known that the process already was rigged. I fault us for our complacency more than anything else.

                  ...no hell below us, above us only sky.

                  by rightiswrong on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:17:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Believing in the rule of law, and (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rightiswrong, moiv, side pocket, 3goldens

                    expecting the courts to save the day turned out really swell....and then the Democrats went and kept their powder dry while pounding the final nails in our coffin by not filibustering judicial nominations. It was clear to me when Roberts was nominated. While most on this site were arguing about abortion I posted an ignored (since deleted) diary pointing out Roberts' role in the unitary executive theory. Then when Alito was nominated.........

                    Our so-called Democratic leaders are sheep who we follow to the slaughter. I believe they have been cowed by the ad hominem media attacks, and have no courage whatsoever. This is why I've lost interest in electoral politics and have not participated in a single candidate diary, other than defending Kucinich occasionally.

              •  I know it is (16+ / 0-)

                almost cliche at this point to suggest that our passivity as a nation is the result of our hyper-consumerism, but i think it is true. We live in a society in which we can satisfy our desire for freedom by going to the mall and "choosing" which pair of shoes to buy today. In other words, democratic political energy -- the energy that is fundamental to the preservation of our society -- is redirected into consumerism. On a related note, I can't help but think that the fetishization of "bi-partisanship" politics in recent years is indicative of our political passivity and our slide toward fascism. After all, bi-partisanship is simply a code word for doing nothing and letting the executive branch have its way. Obviously compromise is an important part of politics, but bold policy in a democracy requires constant ideological contention and the eventual domination of one point of view over the other. That is healthy. But again, our nation seems to lack that democratic energy. Although sites like Daily Kos are certainly helping to remedy the situation.  

                •  Yes. And TV is the heart of that problem. n/t (4+ / 0-)

                  The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                  by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:44:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ain't never had a TV! (0+ / 0-)

                    First it was the advertising.  They paid psychologists and others big money to make it effective.  I didn't want any part of that.

                    Then it was violence, both in fiction and non-fiction.  I didn't want to be desensitized to that either.

                    When I moved to Norway, there was no longer advertising, but only a couple of channels.  Everyone watched the same thing at the same time and talked about it the next day.  Ugh.

                    Now, as an elementary school teacher, I have a mission of sorts.  "My" kids know one adult who manages to exist without TV.  

                    The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

                    by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:12:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Good for you. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DSPS owl

                      Years ago I was in rural VT.  One night I was trying to watch the Celtics, Boston's basketball team, through a ridiculously snow-filled screen.  I just got up, unhooked the antenna wire, and threw it out the window.  I didn't watch tv for two years, and I didn't miss it in the least.  It's amazing how all those things so many people talk about just don't make any difference in one's life.  During this time, if I walked into a room with a tv on, it sounded so harsh and false I could hardly stand it.  I also felt mentally healthy as well.

                      I still watch very little.  It is a death trap.  It's great for your kids that model that healthy behavior.

                      The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                      by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:48:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I was looking to Al Gore. (11+ / 0-)

                I trusted that man (and for the most part, I still do).  I hated when he folded, but I figured he was the expert.  The leadership in this country, even the ones I respect and love, have failed us.  I wonder about this a lot.  Perhaps they are too close to things to see clearly, perhaps they are too insulated, perhaps they have grown so accustomed to corruption that they didn't recognize it in this more virulent form, perhaps they are too "straight" to think this radically, perhaps they are too afraid, perhaps they are all more complicit than we like to think.  It is a mystery to me, but they failed us then and continue to fail us.

                Is it possible they knew how ruthless the enemy is, and had some weak dream of reaching an accommodation that would trigger the totalitarianism we all fear?  I'm tired of wondering.  It is time to take to the streets (non-violently).

                The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:41:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Good question,.....I know I was out there (7+ / 0-)

                protesting the stolen election, wearing my orange t-shirt.

                It was disappointing how few people showed up for the protest in Tallahassee though,.......and there was barely any media ( just one reporter).

                Since Nov 2004, so much more has come out, and Bush's approval has gone down from 50% to 26%, that I think we will do better if and when we take to the streets this time around.

                Edwards puts healthcare reform on the table in a very credible way and is tough enough to make HR 676,....the ultimate goal, achievable.

                by fayeforcure on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:45:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  nyceve, they caught us with our eyes wide shut. (16+ / 0-)

                They had been feeding us lies on the TV for the entire election and then they placed their brown shirts at the polling places demanding the count be STOPPED.  And we, the people, were stunned into silence because we weren't prepared for such a crime to occur on our shores.

                I remember saying "can the Supreme Court do that?"  And before the words were out of my mouth, Bu$hCo was being sworn in.

                They were prepared for this.  What they weren't prepared for was the outing of Ted Haggard two weeks before the 2006 election and a Dem Congress that would actually hold hearings.  That's taken them by surprise and now they're actually showing their true colors.  They've stopped pretending and they've declared their intentions.

                DOWN WITH THE BUSH-CHENEY DICTATORSHIP!

              •  nyceve...?? (11+ / 0-)

                Remember when it against the KosLaw to even suggest such a thing?

                Conspiracy?

              •  Plus people used to laugh at me when I used (10+ / 0-)

                to say that in 2000.  Not anymore.  

                Impeach the bastards, settle for nothing less.

                by Do Tell on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:41:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think the exhaustion of the Clinton years, (8+ / 0-)

                the unending 6 year outrage of that bloodthirsty pursuit, followed by a presidential election process which tires most Americans, followed by the confusing controversy over the hanging chads, combined with the dispositions of most Americans today, made it likely that people would just want to "move on".

                I see people here in the blogosphere and on this site, who have political ambitions to one degree or another, and they are psychologically predisposed not to let events interfere with the way they see themselves moving forward within the status quo.

                That is where I believe, the "it's not pragmatic" and you're "embarrassing our site" type of thinking comes from.  Those people are threatened by the unfolding of events that are contrary to their, most likely subconscious imo, vision of how they themselves will fit into the unfolding political landscape.

                Years ago I was driving to work, and a man with the sun in his eyes ran a red light, crashed right into me as I was driving through the intersection.  A cop was parked on that block lucky for me, and saw everything.  He was at my driver-side window in a flash.  "Are you hurt?" he asked.  "I'm ok".  He asked something else, I said "I have to get to work, I have to open my business and I'm already running late".  He asked something else.  I repeated that I was ok and I needed to get going.  He said "M'am, you've been in a car accident.  You're going to be late opening your business.  Just take a deep breath and we'll take care of this right now".

                I realized in that second that it takes a hell of a big irrefutable reality to snap one out of denial.  When your mind is determinedly headed in one direction, it doesn't switch quickly.

                I beg everyone here who has the ability and wherewithall to be politically active, to see what is in front of them right now, not their dream of what is in front of them years down the road.

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi

                by Susan Something on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:34:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Truer Words Were Never Spoken (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Susan Something

                  That is where I believe, the "it's not pragmatic" and you're "embarrassing our site" type of thinking comes from.  Those people are threatened by the unfolding of events that are contrary to their, most likely subconscious imo, vision of how they themselves will fit into the unfolding political landscape.

                  Adapt or die!

          •  12/12/00 (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mary4, stonemason

            This date is no accident.  The number 12 has much religious and cabalistic significance.  

            example:  The biblical Jacob had 12 sons, who were the progenitors of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, blah, blah.

            sample look up here
            many others if you dig, but my point is that this kind of stuff seems to matter to "those who determine our fate".

            Yes, I am psychic...or was that psycho? I always forget which.

            by Farradin on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:28:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with you 100% and have for years (24+ / 0-)

          He's still the same kid who dismembered animals as a child.

          "Don't you dare speak to us like we work for you." - Ben Harper

          by The Termite on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:56:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And I Believe That He Deserves - (8+ / 0-)

          Quality care.
          Of course, he can afford it -
          Unlike most other people with mental illness.

        •  No psychotropic drug can cure evil (7+ / 0-)

          To say Bush and Cheney are evil people is not moralizing. It is simply the truth. Its enough to make a moral relativist to admit that human evil is not just a socially agreed definition but is a real and extremely virulent danger to everyone when the people in power are the real evil doers.

          I want to hear somebody asking them why They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are But theyre never the ones to fight or to die - J. Brown

          by OHdog on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:07:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Nobody realized Reagan's mental decline (5+ / 0-)

          or at least the media kept it under wraps. Our country is in far too much danger for the media to keep up its role of enablers.

          They should be so thoroughly ashamed of themselves already for leading the US to war, without so much as questioning the assertions/lies of the Bush administration.

          The MSM needs to step up to the plate and do what it's supposed to do: hold those in power accountable, and address the deterioration of mental status when it relates to the president, whether or not it's a popular position for them to take.

          What matters now is to save our country

          Edwards puts healthcare reform on the table in a very credible way and is tough enough to make HR 676,....the ultimate goal, achievable.

          by fayeforcure on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:00:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sure, but... (0+ / 0-)

            "They should be so thoroughly ashamed of themselves already for leading the US to war, without so much as questioning the assertions/lies of the Bush administration."

            They've got A LOT of money at stake.  You know, maximizing shareholder value.  They wouldn't want to risk missing next quarter's projected earnings target!

        •  Bush suffers from NPD (6+ / 0-)

          Narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by:

          Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder
          (cautionary statement)  

          A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

          (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

          (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

          (3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

          (4) requires excessive admiration

          (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

          (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

          (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

          (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

          (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

          Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association

          This has been mentioned in other diaries here before and since I have been working in this field for the last ten years, I thought I would give it a subjective assessment (as best can be done with so little actual contact).

          I think the key here is

          Psychologists commonly believe that pathological narcissism results from an impairment in the quality of the person’s relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy, empathic attachment to them.

          When your daddy is president he just doesn't have time for you.  

          Add this pathology with the idealism that 'instructs' his belief system that we are 'good' and the fight in the middle east is against 'bad' and we see that he wouldn't stop at anything to achieve his goals, after all, he probably sees himself as the most important person in the world, and maybe even the only one who can stop the 'bad' people.

          I am totally scared right now because a self-aggrandized man has been given the levers of power by those whose only real goal is to maintain that power for their own benefit.

        •  I agree with that... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          moiv, SeaTurtle

          ...but part of that illness is narcissism and secretly fearful narcissists such as him are perfect pawns for the truly violent and virulent sociopaths like Cheney (and his backers) to use as their frontman.  

          It has been said by "unnamed insiders" that Cheney shot his friend in the face because he is so paranoid about assasination attempts that he caught a glimpse of a gun in his friend's hands and whirled around to "defend" himself.

          That's paranoid, and that's dangerous.  The man has friggin' man-sized SAFES in his office!  Excuse me, but if I had been hired as interior designer for the VP's office, I would be having a heart attack right now.  I doubt those safes are done in the Louis XIV's style.

          SERIOUSLY, what this diary tells me is that I am very much not alone in what I've been telling myself for the past YEAR are my private tin-foil hat fears:

          Remember 9/11? Remember how most Americans were rah-rah patriotic (including me) and flying flags everywhere and supporting the President at 90% approval (including me)? Now I don't know how and if we will have a disaster equal in casualties to 9/11 or worse, but even a series of London type bombings killing "only" a few dozen Americans may be all that is needed to institute martial law and cause most Americans, in fear, to rally around a President who warned them Al Quada was after us and that he will protect us with extraordinary means. He will say "these measures" are now needed to ensure no further attacks are done.

          What will our elected leaders do if this hapens?  Will they tell us all to "behave" (like Gore and Kerry did after their respective stolen elections?)
          and follow the rules (even though the President and co. have now broken all the rules our founders and courts created and simply, without permission, written their own?)  

          What will the public do?  

          What will it take to incite anger and outrage on a scale much larger than the intellectual/activist anger apparent here on Dailykos?  What will it take to make the villagers storm the castle if the Frankenstein monster is indeed real?

          I'm not sure.  Do Americans even have that kind of anger in us anymore?  Or will we become quiet sheep; obedient accessories to evil, like the Germans in WWII?  

          I believe Buscho is counting on the fact that Americans like things quiet, peaceful and easy.  That we like to think well of people and trust our leaders to do the right thing.  We like to stay home, watch the Tee Vee and hope for the best.

          Which are we?  Those who stand against tyranny, like our predecessors, or those who simply lie down and let the waves rush over us in denial?

          I hope against hope we don't have to find out.

          Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught. ~Honoré de Balzac

          by hopesprings on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:33:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We should do a DK roll call every day (16+ / 0-)

        just in case we start disappearing..

        ok, that's alarmist if not snarky, but I can't bring myself to actually call it a snark.  "We" can be construed, using logic far less consistent than has been applied to other things, to be "preventing or obstructing the rebuilding of the Iraq government."

        Until they are removed from office, it seems they have the self-given authority to "disappear" us all... one by one.

        Where were you when Congress became irrelevant?

        by netguyct on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:36:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  When you see those tanks in the streets... (23+ / 0-)

        ...I want you to remember this one thing. Don't be disheartened. Stand fast doing all and then standing. We're using all the legal means available to stop this cabal. There's millions of certified combat vets living in America today who will not just take this dictatorship you speak of with a grain of salt. We know who the true patriots are. And we know who the traitors are, too! They can't kill us all. I'm an ex-Army tanker on M60A1's. I know any tank's weaknesses. I know the Abram's achilles heel, too. Trust me. May God help them if they try a "Tienamen Square" here in America and start killing our citizens. I'll only use that knowledge if and only if forced to and in direct response to their tyranny. I'm of a fervent hope bloodshed can be avoided. If we begin impeachment trials immediately, hopefully a civil war can be avoided, imo. Need I say more?

        "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:45:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Impeach, I was told by a former . . . (8+ / 0-)

          (retired) NYPD officer/sargeant, whatever, that many of the rank and file who have retired, I suppose are still licensed to be armed and they will fight this regime if they must.

          •  I love the spirit and commitment (7+ / 0-)

            It rouses me and does make me feel safer.  But realistically, they have total control of the infrastructure.  They have been listening in to us for years.  They have control of the media.  They have weapons much subtler than tanks.

            I know it seems wimpy to a lot of people, but non-violent resistance is powerful.  Compassion is powerful.

            "They" are hoping to back their power with fear--a fear that paralyzes the population.  Fearlessness, not violence, is our best defense.  Being willing to die, rather than willing to kill, is our most hopeful commitment.  I ask all the great, tough vets out there, don't let them show you in the streets with weapons, call you terrorists, and begin locking us all away with the frightened complicity of the middle who now loathe Bush and his thugs.  Commit to ferocious non-violent action.  Please.

            The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

            by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:54:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Our society has changed... (10+ / 0-)

              ...When I was a young buck back in the 60's my next door neighbor slaughtered hogs every weekend to make extra money selling the pork. Back then it was lawful to have and slaughter farm animals in the city limits. If he did that today he would get a charge. I remember 8 Drive-in theatres in my hometown alone! I remember when a dollar was a dollar and the toughest decision facing a young man (or woman) was what factory or manufacturing plant you'd work at and RETIRE from! All gone now!

              The political landscape and mental outlook in America has changed.

              During Vietnam, I remember us losing upwards of 500 troops KIA a week at times. The millions of anti-war protesters broke the back of that war, along with the presidency of another war mongerer LBJ.

              As an activist for over 25 years, I know blogging and writing lots of letters has its place. But we're not going to stop Bush with mere words! We've got to start flooding the streets with massive resistance rallies! And let them throw us in jail. Nobody ever died from a little green jail bologna. But lots of people will die if we don't act now, imo!

              "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

              by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:17:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I remember those times as well (5+ / 0-)

                and I am right with you.

                But we're not going to stop Bush with mere words! We've got to start flooding the streets with massive resistance rallies! And let them throw us in jail.

                It won't be easy.  They have studied Viet Nam and taken steps to avoid being thwarted in the same way.  But I believe they fail to appreciate the power of committed humans in common cause.  It's time to take them on.

                The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:35:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  One of the other differences are the .. (7+ / 0-)

                colleges and universities. In the 60s and early 70s the profs were outspoken about the war mongering of that era, and were openly talking about it.

                I also remember a poli-sci class that asked students if they thought they were a member of the middle class, then produced income categories for students to judge where they belonged. Many were surprised to find they were borderline. There was also a vast consumer education movement supported by books like "The Status Seekers" and "Chemical Feast" by Vance Packard.

                Now, as an old grad student, I find the atmosphere on campus to be quite the opposite. There is support for the status quo, rather than opposition. Of course San Diego is not representative of the country, but I fear it is not a whole lot different.

                My real fear is that the country will accept a dictatorship, rather than disrupt their ignorant yet comfortable lives.

                •  Could this... (4+ / 0-)

                  There is support for the status quo, rather than opposition.

                  be partly because many of today's students are the children of the yuppies of the '80s/Reagan years?

                  They've been spoiled.

                  "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

                  by Donna in Rome on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:16:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sure, but what about the learned .. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kraant, geomoo

                    professors?

                    •  Maybe it's fear...? (5+ / 0-)

                      A preference to "not make waves"?

                      The wingers can say what they will, but I get the idea that the academic environment is not as conducive as it once was to speaking out and expressing "liberal" thoughts nowadays, at least since Bushco took over.

                      "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

                      by Donna in Rome on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 12:04:42 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Valid point... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Donna in Rome, kraant, zorba

                        ...A lot of kids are looking at a quarter million dollars in student loans to pay off after college. College administrators' negative impact towards "troublemakers", "rabblerousers", and "movers and shakers" aside, many potential prospective employers and their recruiters are turned off by such. While "intellectuals on paper" who memorized enough highlighted paragraphs to earn their sheepskins are actively sought, the corporate America of today is not in the mood to over-look youthful indiscretions, and shuns societal catalyst lightning rods with a passion. They avoid those with political agenda axes to grind like the plaque. We live in a society (and under a regime), and indeed all phases of government controlled by the corporations, that stifles dissent, activism, and is adamant against change. Those who dare go against the grain or swim upstream do so at their own peril. Again, I mention all of those student loans. They have to be paid-off whether or not you land a job delivering pizzas or a middle management position at Halliburton.

                        So it's quite easy to understand, in the era of the internet, where every spoken word is recorded, and every MySpace picture is "saved to file" forever, that many have decided it's better just to STFU, go with the flow and not make many waves-or burn too many future bridges before they're even built.

                        Today, everything boils down to money. You're either the bug or the windshield, the sheep or the wolf. And that's why you won't find many students or professors on campuses today opposing the Bush corporate fascist agenda and his new world order. Not to be judgemental, but the cold, hard reality is they've sold out their principles to the highest bidder! But there are some things like freedom and the rule of law that cannot be compromised or sold, that is unless you desire the alternative: THE BONDS OF TYRANNY AND THE CHAINS OF SLAVERY!

                        "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

                        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 04:19:46 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think it's fear more than anything (4+ / 0-)

                          And this is the result of a conscious process begun after Viet Nam.  Not being able to send a military anywhere, anytime bothered the hell out of the imperialists.  During my lifetime, I've seen hippy become an extremely derogatory word.  Liberal has followed suit.  And God help you if you engage in "class warfare."  Amazingly, marijuana is much more of an underground drug even than it was in the 60's.  Every aspect of what the 60's has been under assault.

                          The result is that people have a negative attitude toward openly activist, or even, liberal stances.  When people do assert them, they do so with qualifiers, with extreme limits, with tentative commitment.  (I'm not a hippy but..., I'm no communist but..., Perhaps there is something to...)

                          Finally, I think people are not consciously aware of their level of fear.  That level has been slowly ratcheting upward, especially recently.  People are driven by their fear more than they realize.  Careful, good-citizen types (what my friends still call "straight"), who are the backbone of the country, are cowering in fear without being aware of it.

                          The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                          by geomoo on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:02:17 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  How'd compassion work out for the Germans? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              notimportant, kraant, brentmack

              I agree with some of what you say, particularly about fearlessness, but you have to at least prepare for the worst case scenario. Kind of like the neocons failed to do in Iraq. Didn't work out for them, either.

              "Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
              Hey, Loyal Bushies - elections have consequences. Mostly for you.

              by armadillo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:51:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I stand to be corrected, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant, brentmack

                but I don't think the Germans mounted an aggressive, but compassionate, campaign to stop the Nazis.  My impression is that they were either overwhelmed with poverty or too involved in their sense pleasures to do more than criticize and complain.  (Please, may not this be us.)  You make a mistake if you think compassion means sitting around with a silly smile on your face or clucking your tongue sympathetically.

                Compassion is a powerful tool which penetrates deep into the human heart.  Compassion can be the source of immense strength and courage.  Compassion can be empowered by anger.  Compassion gazes unflinchingly into the depths of human suffering.  Compassion is the glue that binds us.  It is no pansy affectation and it does not crumple in the face of petulant violence.  That violence is powerful and compassion is weak is one of the great illusions of humanity.  All the great religions (in their authentic incarnations) seek to direct us toward the true source of power--selfless compassion.

                The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:25:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You have to because THEY ALREADY HAVE! (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant, armadillo, brentmack

                Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

                by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:44:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  this is my concern too (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              moiv, kraant, DSPS owl, brentmack, geomoo

              But realistically, they have total control of the infrastructure.

              Infrastructure including electricity.

              One word, everyone:  water.

              Water comes to your home probably because electricity ran a pump that brought it there.  Central can turn off electricity at whim

              Second word:  food.

              It comes by trucks from afar, often thousands of miles.  Estimates are that four days' cessation of trucking (not difficult for central to shut down) will eliminate all food supply.

              About the time everyone's plumbing freezes up in January because of a conflict with central, we would all have regrets about not knowing where to find a fresh water source.

              When I hear people talk of armed resistance, I say as Jesus said, count the cost.  I don't think most people who advocate armed resistance have thought through the mass logistics.  It might not go quickly.  The old, the sick, the young, the infirm, would probably die in any extended conflict.  Think it through.  We need to ride hard on legal channels to deal with this while we can.

              Kudos to the diarist for being brave enough to publish honest thoughts.  

            •  While I Appreciate Your Point (0+ / 0-)

              "Commit to ferocious non-violent action.  Please."

              Tell it to the Iraqis.

        •  It will not be tanks, it's maximum pain weaponry (11+ / 0-)

          Maximum pain is aim of new US weapon
          19:00 02 March 2005

          Office of Naval Research
          Neuroscience, University of Florida
          Department of Physiology, University College London

          The US military is funding development of a weapon that delivers a bout of excruciating pain from up to 2 kilometres away. Intended for use against rioters, it is meant to leave victims unharmed. But pain researchers are furious that work aimed at controlling pain has been used to develop a weapon. And they fear that the technology will be used for torture.

          "I am deeply concerned about the ethical aspects of this research," says Andrew Rice, a consultant in pain medicine at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London, UK. "Even if the use of temporary severe pain can be justified as a restraining measure, which I do not believe it can, the long-term physical and psychological effects are unknown."

          The research came to light in documents unearthed by the Sunshine Project, an organisation based in Texas and in Hamburg, Germany, that exposes biological weapons research. The papers were released under the US's Freedom of Information Act
          >

          Courtesy of the New Scientist.

          Oh that we had the gift to see ourselves as others see us. Robbie Burns

          by ohcanada on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:36:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Is this legit? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dotdot

            Link? And is there any evidence that it actually works? (so many military projects have ended in abject failure, like the LSD mind control experiments)

            Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

            by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:42:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes, its legit (8+ / 0-)

              http://www.newscientist.com/...

              First I heard of it was about a year ago on CBC.(Canadian Boradcasting Corporation) I have no link, but if you google pain research US military, you will get lots of info.

              Oh that we had the gift to see ourselves as others see us. Robbie Burns

              by ohcanada on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:44:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  God that is scary... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ImpeachKingBushII, LucyMO, kyril

                Fucking hell..

                "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

                by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:08:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  One official (5+ / 0-)

                suggested that it be used here, beofre they take it to a battleground. Seriously.

                Here's a linkto one paper:

                The reason it is so heavily considered exclusively a riot control weapon is that it may easily be rendered ineffective in a true combat situation; GlobalSecurity.org speculates that "Countermeasures against the weapon could be quite straightforward — for example covering up the body with thick clothes or carrying a metallic sheet — or even a trash can lid — as a shield or reflector. Also unclear is how the active-denial technology would work in rainy, foggy or sea-spray conditions where the beam's energy could be absorbed by water in the atmosphere" [link]. Simply by covering oneself in reflective material, the weapons effects are negated. The implication here is that its sole purpose is not for combat, but in fact for general riot control, and that its deployment in Iraq is simply a trial run for deployment in the U.S. This idea has the following connections:

                   * "Testing" VMADS on Iraqis before deployment on U.S. riots is unethical, treating Iraqis as guinea pigs
                   * As a weapon for riot control, its use is a threat to freedom of speech and assembly
                   * Without long-term effects, its use could fill a desperate need in riot control, bridging the gap between shouting and shooting

          •  Someone's been reading Atlas Shrugged... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ohcanada, brentmack

            This sounds like the evil weapon Ayn Rand posited that killed by sound waves - but left infrastructure intact.....

          •  Don't forget (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            moiv, ohcanada, brentmack

            Unless this is the same device, they've also been testing out a long distance 'heat ray', similar to microwaving, that will cause 'enemy combatants' to 'feel as if they have a light bulb' pressed up against their skin.  Don't recall which mag I read the article on that one in.  Scientific American, the Economist, whatever.  Some mainstream mag, though, not Fortean Times ;)

            Got a problem with my posts? Email me, and let's resolve it.

            by drbloodaxe on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:07:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In Iraq, witnesses describe the horrifying effect (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              moiv, ohcanada, kyril

              of a new kind of high energy beam weapon. It was mounted on a humvee, according to eyewitnesses, and it did horrible things to human bodies. Just try to imagine the kinds of people whose souls are so distorted that they will use any means necessary to remain in power. Anything....

              Now you know what we're up against, and why it is essential we group in very large numbers, as quickly as possible, to counter this existing, active and malevolent threat.

              "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

              by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:51:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Thom Hartmann weighs in (2+ / 0-)

          Minutes ago a caller asked the same questions. Thom replied that "gradual" totalitarianism in Germany was able to succeed because Germans had only a brief history of democracy. We, OTOH, have 231 years of democracy, so we would not roll over like they did, or at least be less likely to. So he saw less of a threat that a coup would succeed here. I hope he's right.

          But how do you stop it short of impeachment? And would impeachment itself trigger a coup? Maybe Pelosi knows something we don't? It's certainly a risk, given their demonstrated thirst for total control. Shux, I breathed a sigh of relief it didn't happen in Nov. 2006 when their voter suppression efforts failed to overcome America's outrage. Now that that ploy no longer works, what's left for them?

          Arm up! Protect our Constitution!

          "Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
          Hey, Loyal Bushies - elections have consequences. Mostly for you.

          by armadillo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:45:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, but what re. sev. Blackwater mercenary (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          brentmack

          training facilities that are now in various parts of the US?  Heard that on Thom Hartmann, too....  

          That F*****G SCARES ME!!!  Why are they training so many mercenaries within our borders?  What would a corporation do with an armed presence in the US?  Who in our govt. would seize control?????

          C-H-E-N-E-Y!!!!

        •  Need I say more? (0+ / 0-)

          No, but I do.  Thank you.  I hope it never comes to that.  But it's good to know that we've got a fighting chance if need be.

      •  You're 50 y.o? I'm 70 and live daily in a state (32+ / 0-)

        of fear that threatens to engulf me, render me unable to function!!

        Ealier tonite I watched on Sundance a film: "Road to Guantanamo" (SIC) It dealt with the "Tipton Four"-Brit chaps of Pakastani heritage who were swept up in an al Quaeda dragnet, ending up in Camp Delta, Cuba.

        Never in my life have I been so thoroughly ashamed to be an American! These actions of dehumanization were done in all our names!

        My chronic insomnia is back with a vengeance!

        Aloha .. .. ..

      •  American Consentration Camps (4+ / 0-)

        http://www.apfn.org/...

        Lets not forget Executive Order #51
        http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

      •  I can't believe what I am going to write! (17+ / 0-)

        But I can honestly say, for the first time, I can see the Bush regime causing a 9/11 type attack/cause a major war/assassinate the Dem front runner.

        That way they would be able to take over and stop the elections. They do not want to give up power.

        The rational part of me says, "NO way--that's nuts." But I fear......

        I was born in the mid-fifties and never have I been frightened by my own government.

        A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who....never learned how to walk forward.-FDR

        by vassmer on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:49:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I put nothing past them (7+ / 0-)

          Since we are talking about people who have spent their adult lives in great privilege, safety and comfort, who operate either amorally or messiancialy and have shown time after time that they have compassion for no one, and take responsibility for none of their mistakes or destructive acts- what act would they feel would be wrong to commit?
          NONE
          I share your fear, especially for our young activists- keep your passport up to date, keep some cash on hand.

          •  Yikes...I am in trouble...no passport yet! (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mary4, stonemason, drbloodaxe, kyril

            Funny, how the government is so backlogged with passport requests (I know folks who have been waiting 3 months now.) They say it is because people want to travel and proof the economy is great.

            No, people are planning their escape.

            A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who....never learned how to walk forward.-FDR

            by vassmer on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:14:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  drive to Mexico (0+ / 0-)

              the Guadalajara embassy processes passports in a very few weeks (under four) and you can still cross the border in a vehicle with only a drivers' license.  You can get a six months' tourist visa at the border, and a permit for your vehicle.

            •  Who will protect the children if others flee? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril

              Who will care for the elderly, the mentally ill, the disabled, if you flee, and the vile bush mentality holds sway? Do you expect the rest of us to make that noble sacrifice, while you think only of yourselves? Is that the American spirit?

              I thought "all rats for themselves" was a GOPper slogan.

              "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

              by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 04:01:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  They're acting like people who intend to stay (4+ / 0-)

          in office and that's what scares me

          Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

          by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:05:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I suggest we stop giving them cover by parroting (0+ / 0-)

          their preferred propaganda:

          vassmer said:

          But I can honestly say, for the first time, I can see the Bush regime causing a 9/11 type attack/cause a major war/assassinate the Dem front runner.

          That way they would be able to take over and stop the elections. They do not want to give up power.

          What we need to make VERY CLEAR to our families, friends, neighbors (ok, except for the bizarro-fanatic semi-automatic collector down the street) and anyone else who will listen is that another 9/11 incident is proof the cheeney/boosh regime is inept and has FUBAR'D its responsibility to protect us, as they said all along they would. If we say this LOUDLY AND CLEARLY ENOUGH, and they launch a pretext strike, they'll have made our case: the world is too dangerous to leave our safety in the hands of the gop clowns, criminal elements and wingnuts.

          "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason is an American value.

          by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:57:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, It Sucks Doesn't It? (0+ / 0-)

          "I was born in the mid-fifties and never have I been frightened by my own government."

          It's like living in a damn mine field.

      •  The blood of patriots and tyrants (7+ / 0-)

        The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.

        ATTRIBUTION: THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to William Stephens Smith, November 13, 1787.—The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).

        This Jefferson quote has been running through my mind again and again today.  I fear that like so much else he anticipated in his wisdom and understanding of human nature, he knew that one day we would confront our most powerful enemy in the White House - not on foreign shores.

        "Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary." - Mahatma Gandhi

        by LondonYank on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:10:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have a number of relatives in jail already (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stonemason, DSPS owl, lifexpert, kyril

        It's easy to lock up Americans.  We have more people locked away than just about any other country and nobody cares.  They're enemies in the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war to protect our borders and the never ending war on destitute and impoverished cripples of every description.  The demographics of the prison population make a mockery of the claim made that we are equal under the law.  Now add to this the war on terror.  If the past wars on our civil rights are preface, there won't be need to put tanks in the streets.  Ask people what happened at the Seattle trade talks years ago.  Few expressed outrage over how  protestors were treated and the media denounced them unanimously. Once people have to pay a price for saying these things, the number that will have to be incarcerated will be small and easy to vilify.

        Anyway, happy Friday.  I just don't think you'll need a whole lot of tanks.  But, with the contractor situation and Bush judgment, maybe they'll do it anyway and make a big ruckus.

        "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

        by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:05:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Too late. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silverbird

        Our last hope was that 2004 wouldn't be stolen like 2000 was... the last glimmer went out when Pelosi said impeachment was off the table.  It is no longer a question of IF but WHEN and how extensive will it be...

        I said in 2000 to a Nader-supporter-friend of mine that if this man was elected, we that the election of 2004 would be a sham and that we would lose the right to vote entirely by 2008.  I said to him, "imagine a Hitler that no nation and no consortium of nations could stop".  He thought I was a freak... but all the warning signs were there from the beginning.  Remember the "There should be limits to freedom" line, or the "Dictatorship is ok, so long as I'm the dictator?".  That was enough for me.  This man is no fool, as Reagan was no fool... we dismissed Reagan as a doddering old fool to our own cost... we dismissed this man as an idiot to our own cost...

        Honestly, I don't hold out a lot of hope for impeachment, even if it happens, because who's gonna enforce it?  Who's gonna march in there and drag him out?  I don't see anyone enforcing the law... do you?  

        You can be as free as you want, so long as Republicans control birth, death, sex and marriage. And whose vote counts.

        by ultrageek on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:51:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So what exactly are you suggesting? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril

          Rolling over and playing dead/armed revolution?

          •  Honestly? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Oy the Billybumbler, bee tzu, kyril

            My suggestion is this:

            Congress controls the purse strings...

            1. Stop paying White House personnel
            1. Stop paying the utility bills -including Cable!
            1. Stop buying food
            1. Stop paying for gas for Air Force One and Two, and Marine One and Two
            1. Stop paying the pilots
            1. Stop paying the limo drivers
            1. Stop buying gasoline for the limo fleet
            1. Don't renew the leases on the White House computers, certainly don't buy any new ones
            1. No more Seal-of-the-President tie clips, pens or coffee cups

            Fine.  He's king.  But it is a poor king indeed who doesn't control his own purse.  After all, DC can get awfully hot in August and dang chilly in February... and it does get dark at night.  

            You can be as free as you want, so long as Republicans control birth, death, sex and marriage. And whose vote counts.

            by ultrageek on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:16:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Doesn't matter that much (0+ / 0-)

          if he's dragged out, does it?  The military and the rest take orders from whomever has been sworn in as prez.  (Of course, if that's Cheney, we're no better off.)

          The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

          by DSPS owl on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 02:47:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  all I have is a voice, to undo the folded lie (6+ / 0-)

        Many of my friends and family know my history of blogging and commenting, and the nature of the surveillance I have already documented. If I disappear, people will know why, at least.

        Disappearances — that's one thing we haven't had, apparently.  But having seen Argentina and other curious models and precedents, it's an obvious next step for this administration, and will probably happen before the tanks-on-the-street phenomenon. It's economically safer, too, for BushCo... But seriously, haven't they considered the economic ramifications of such a move? This country will shut down. Or is that the plan? Judging from the way Homeland Security has lectured banks on access to safety deposit boxes — off-limits, by the way — we surely know they have planned for the worst.

        If you really believe this is possible, on a small or large scale, document everything make sure your friends and family know everything they need to know. Better yet, make sure your friends abroad know, too. As for me, I've been fairly rigorous about this for several years, since I got the hint of being observed in July 2005. It's only emboldened my blogging, by the way.

      •  I feel the same way (4+ / 0-)

        I was wary all along, but what really made me downright scared was seeing the 2004 Republican National Convention.  When I saw guys wearing purple bandaids making fun of Kerry's Purple Heart, I thought they looked totally out of control, like they'd do anything for Bush at the expense of the nation.

        I'm convinced that if Bush told people to hand in their guns in the name of national security, about 30% of Americans would get behind a movement to repeal their beloved 2nd Amendment, lead by Fox News (which would provide drop-off locations for your hunting rifle.)

      •  Tipped and Rec'd (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stonemason, J Royce

        Thanks for this.

        ...no hell below us, above us only sky.

        by rightiswrong on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:47:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The way to head it off (3+ / 0-)

        ...is to inoculate the people against it by (metaphorically) shouting out that if there's a terrorist attack, it's Bush's fault for all the reasons we know including false flag. The public is receptive but not readily accessible, but a lot of people have seen "Zeitgeist". Keith Olbermann has already begun this inoculation by directly stating that any new attack will be Bush's fault. This must be hammered home in every way possible, words, videos, music, every method available. This is the only way to fend it off. If he realizes there will be no benefit to him, and in fact athat he will be blamed as will the GOP, he will be stymied.

        "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

        by eyeswideopen on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:47:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what a mirror (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Oy the Billybumbler, J Royce, kyril

        Even as I write these words I feel like a wild-eyed nutcase.

        A year and a half ago when we concluded certain (ahem, clears throat) things about what was going on in government, particularly with black ops, we felt so alone.  

        I am one of those people who bites the tongue about the FAQ.  I knocked off a lot of diaries at Markos' orders, not because I had penned any theories but because I asked verbotten questions.  I anguished about choosing between the rotten perils of abandoning DKos due to purist issues vs. keeping mouth shut in order to be a part of developing community consciousness and voice.  We chose the latter (my husband is a big part of this writing process although he "lurks" instead of writing), because I felt if DKos never caught on to what is happening, I couldn't see another informed and journalistically responsible body of thought developing in the US which could match it.  I took it on the chops a lot with tinfoil epithets, although got a lot of support too.  

        We grieved, prayed.

        We sat back, reasoning through all we saw, all we were learning, all that was exhumed, tracing the dark, bloody threads back to Iran/Contra and before... saying well, if they would do this, then why would they not do that?  And if they want that, why would they not also want this?  Those kind of tormented sequences of realizations.

        And we dug, and dug, and dug.  I would read the most far-out conspiracy websites, then google around to see if any credible sources verified claims (there are a lot of absurd claims).  And I think a year ago I sounded unstable as water in a hurricane.  I sounded just like your fear:  

        I feel like a wild-eyed nutcase.

        Now I am seeing myself in you.  Yes it is terra incognita, to even think these things about a government we once trusted, let alone finding oneself unable to brush credence aside in such things as the hair-raising Roberts article.  This is a grieving process.

        Just for the record (and I sound like a broken record) we still have an Iran/Contra insider who worked financial fraud for the FAM, who had to testify before Kerry's committee, who survived to write a memoir and write a weekly column on the premise of financial advice... who was saying all this about the Patriot Act two years ago.  The man is familiar with finance law, with the history of Stalin (from whose laws he says some of the Patriot Act comes verbatim, only translated from Russian to English).  His health is failing him at times, and the writing from one week to the next is sometimes inconsistent.  But so many of the witnesses to Iran/Contra "died" or "committed suicide" and so forth that we should be glad one of the original people is around to give tips.  Infallible, no, and yes Martin is kind of a dark persona at times but who would be among those involved in criminal government activities?  There is a backlog of two years' worth of articles on the website available to subscribers, which chronicles the development of the Patriot Act(s) through Martin's eyes.  Dismiss this source if you will, but at your peril imo.

        I don't envy you at this stage of the process.  You are in shock.  It's only that we've been grieving about loss of government integrity for so long now that at least we don't lie around like the sick.  But you have my condolences.

      •  I suspect that I am like many other people (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brentmack, kyril

        in that I support the idea of impeachment but like you said, hoped that we could just fast forward through the next 15 months and elect a Democratic leadership. I've moved around this position for awhile now coming real close to saying its worth the chance of damage to our party by impeaching but backing off at the last minute by reminding myself that it is only 15 months..we can make it.

        That being said, this is the last straw. The last push. The last step for me. As I write this I'm also writing letters to each of my reps begging...DEMANDING ... that they begin impeachment proceedings. Their latest stunt had better terrify even the best fence walkers (like myself) out there!

        Great diary..Thank you!

      •  This comment-for VT and WI residents... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril

        I'm sure everyone here read the Feingold diary.  It's obvious that we all know that the Senate is the "jury" and they make the decision once the House has presented their case.  Yeah, yeah... we know that.  

        Thom Hartman is going to impact the outcome of the impeachment and we have to be thankful to Air America for giving him the microphone from which he can speak.

        Believe it or not, today Senator Bernie Sanders (your own Bernie from VT) gave the same story on Thom's show that Senator Feingold gave us the other day with that friggin' diary he wrote.

        After Bernie left, Thom thanked him, said he and Bernie have a great dialog and that most of the time they agree.  He made it clear that he doesn't agree with Bernie on impeachment and asked for all VT residents who are Bernie's constituents to call, e-mail, fax, snail mail and visit his office to let him know that they want him to represent them (his constituents)!

        So please do that.  Russ needs to hear it from the home and DC offices again.  Let's make it real for him please!

      •  Well with Cheney taking over while George is down (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ghengismom, kyril

        I would say that we are right on target for nightmare if it is going to happen.

        If George happens to suddenly pass on as a result of a routine recto-ruturing.....

        That would leave Cheney in charge.

    •  Exactly. (38+ / 0-)

      I popped into this diary to say exactly that.

      It's here.  They just haven't disappeared any of your neighbors yet.

      Yet.

      Je suis inondé de déesses

      by Marc in KS on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:52:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly right Marc (13+ / 0-)

        We are having a delayed reaction to a fait accompli.  All the necessary pieces have been put into place; all the escape routes have been closed.  What we have most feared and argued against has already occurred.

        Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

        by vigilant meerkat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:55:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Comic relief...you'll get a kick out of this (9+ / 0-)

        it's 8:00 a.m. California time.  Just finished reading this diary.  Doorbell rings.  It's the Air Force!!!!!!!! Or rather, an Air Force investigator, asking questions about my neighbor! My neighbor, H, a recent college graduate in nuclear engineering (I think) applying for U.S. Government security clearance!  After the initial confusion (why was she really here?) we sat down to "talk" about my neighbor.  A lovely conversation by the way but the parting question was "is there any reason to doubt H's loyalty to the United States of America?"  Quickly it crossed my mind if this was some sort of code for "is she a democrat?"  Paranoia?  Stranger things have happened, haven't they?

        •  maybe she's applying for a job with the CIA (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          antirove, Marc in KS, Fury, stonemason, kyril

          As I understand it, they routinely talk to people who know the applicant, as part of their background investigation for job applicants.  I knew someone whose brother was in the CIA, and I also read an article about a man's experiences applying for a job there.  

          "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

          by Susan1138 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:45:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm surprised. . . (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caneel, Fury, DSPS owl

            They haven't seemingly changed the questions in the past 43 years since I had "them" out questioning my friends and neighbors about me for a security clearance when I was in the Army.

            This is normal questioning for security clearances.  If any thing is normal these days.

            *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

            by Shirl In Idaho on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:28:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Seconded. (0+ / 0-)

              I, too, was questioned by the FBI (not the Air Force) about several friends applying for clearance, upwards of 40 years ago.  Always in person, not announced beforehand.  But not at 8 a.m.!

              When I was bridesmaid in a mixed Catholic/non-Catholic wedding, I had to answer questions surprisingly similar.  Did I believe that the bride intended to enter into "a true Christian marriage"?

              The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

              by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:48:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You should have clarified the question: (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Silverbird, Fury, armadillo, brentmack, kyril

          You mean to the United States and not George W. Bush, right?

          The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

          by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:02:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  A High-School Classmate (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fury, kyril

          was going to be working on a high-level government project, and he had gone to RPI. He was an incredibly smart person, even in high school.

          My parents were contacted as references for his clearance, since he was a friend of mine and had been around all of us in high school.

          They figured, correctly, that he must be working on a very highly secretive project to need that kind of clearance.

        •  my husband went through such a background check (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, Fury, DSPS owl, armadillo, kyril

          we (half) jokingly said that he wouldn't get his security clearance because I signed on at impeachbush.org LOL.

          He got his clearance.  But they interviewed EVERYONE you could imagine, and it was for medium-level security, nothing special.  Hell, they even knew about his "delinquency" on his college student loan 20 years ago, when he paid it off but had a $.09 balance he didn't know about, and the damn bill went into collections, triggering a "student loan delinquency" status.

          Proud liberal, secular homeschooler.

          by mbzoltan on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:31:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Very routine (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Marc in KS, Fury, DSPS owl

          I actually roomied with a guy who did that back in the 1960s. He was in one of the services, forget which. That's all he could tell me about what he did. He wore civvies. Pretty cushy job, actually, no military harassment to put up with. But that was then, this is now. Still, I'd bet on routine. Somebody has to do it.

          I had a very high security clearance in the military, renewed later when I was selling stuff to NORAD and SAC. No one I knew ever reported any calls, guess they liked my honest face. Today they'd prolly lock me up, being for quaint  Americana like freedom and the Constitution and all.

          OT: One funny story: Once I was in the bowels of SAC HQ. You always walked with an escort (not the Vitter kind). In the hall on the way to the blast doors, suddenly a klaxon went off. My escort hit me across the chest with his arm, knocking me to the wall, and said, "DON'T MOVE!" Seconds later two patent-leather-booted, white-scarfed troops rounded the corner with M-16s leveled. I complied. :) Apparently I wasn't the perp as they passed us by. You also had to pee while someone watched, I kid you not. (And no, I did not wet myself in the hall, but maybe Vitter is on to something.)

          "Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
          Hey, Loyal Bushies - elections have consequences. Mostly for you.

          by armadillo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:36:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  PLEASE rec this diary (22+ / 0-)

      Once you have listened to the Thom Hartmann interview, you will see why it is so critical to get this idea out there, so people understand.  This is the greatest danger our democracy has ever faced.  

    •  EXACTLY! (17+ / 0-)

      Does someone have to spray paint it on the walls of the Rotunda? Think about it Congresspeople?! There is no way the Republicans or WH would want a true Democrat have the sort of power they have assumed. They must be certain there will be no change of power with the next election. How are they so sure?

      The best case reason for the Democrats inaction is that they think everything will be different in two years. That doesn't seem to be a safe bet.

    •  You have no idea what a dictatorship is (5+ / 0-)

      and for those of my family who lived in fascist Italy, I find your comments dismissively offensive to what they suffered through.  Get real.

      •  We don't want to either! (29+ / 0-)

        We're trying to avoid one.  Can we try to avoid one, please?  I fail to understand why those of you in Europe are trying to tell those of us here who are trying to avoid the fate of Germany and Italy to 'do nothing.'  If we do nothing, we will be doomed.  What would you have us do?  Sit here quietly and wring our hands?  Who is dismissing what you went through?  It is because of what you went through that we are trying to learn that lesson and AVOID IT!

        •  Defeating dictatorship by (8+ / 0-)

          posting on a blog, huh?  Well, I guess you gotta feel like you're doing something.  

          Who is dismissing what you went through?

          No one.  I've lived here all my life.  But, that's not what I wrote, is it.  My grandparents lived in pre-WWII Italy, and told me what a real dictatorship is.  To call what we live in now anything close to that is lunacy.  The diarist here can go to his town square, or take out an ad, or in some other way publish what he wrote, and I can guarantee that no one will execute him for doing so.  

          This diary and those who support it are reckless.

          •  times change. (9+ / 0-)

            going to the town square and getting posters printed are permitted activities only because they are ineffectual and meaningless.

            the modern control apparatus is infinitely more efficient than in dear Benito's day. fascism has a much more consumer-friendly face and much more subtle tactics.

            your dismissiveness is stupid.

            Capitalism is the most barbaric of all religions. - Mark Stewart

            by RabidNation on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:16:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Will you guarantee be worth the paper (31+ / 0-)

            (or pixels) it's written on?

            It seems odd that someone who has experienced second hand the horrors of a dictatorship would poo-poo the concerns of those who fear we may be coming to that point.

            The heavy hand of tyrants begin pressing against the back prior to the final note. One step here, a shuffle turn there, the dance begins with small moves.

            Is it wrong to make note that those small moves eventually progress to a whirling finale?

            I wonder, were there those in Italy and Germany that recognized the cadance of the dance and spoke out as some do here today? Where they scorned by others who "knew what real tyranny" entailed?

            "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

            by witchamakallit on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:19:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I couldn't have said it better myself.. (9+ / 0-)

              "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

              by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:23:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Not quite 1925 yet (9+ / 0-)

              We shall see how the Red Flag movement in churches develops after the children involved grow up.  The first step to Italian Fascism were the fascisti themselves, formed in 1919 "to terrorize anarchists, socialists and communists", according to the Wikipedia.  They formed a political party in 1921 and threatened to march on Rome on October 28, 1922.  Three governments could not stop the chaos.  King Victor Emmanuel III chose between Left and Right, asking Mussolini to form a government.  In 1923, Mussolini asked for and was given dictatorial powers "for one year" by his governing coalition in Parliament.  

              So, for us it is late 1922.  Instead of a march on Rome, we saw a march on Miami during the Brooks Brothers riot.  Dictatorial powers require everybody to know that the executive has them, so it's not quite 1923.  

              Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

              by Yamaneko2 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:02:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  From Milton Mayer's (11+ / 0-)

              They Thought They Were Free

              Interviews with Germans who lived in Germany during the 1930's.

              What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security....

              This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter. ...
              To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

          •  Who has said they are doing that? (8+ / 0-)

            "Defeating dictatorship by posting on a blog?"

            So...people should, what, not discuss the situation at all or is it your opinion that they just shouldn't do so on blogs?  Should we start sending telegrams?  Should we all run screaming into the streets and then decide, as we're running down the road, on what we should do then?

            These damn tubes are mighty effective!

          •  a lot of the nasty violence of the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant, lifexpert

            20th century European dictatorships had to do with the fact that Hitler and Mussolini had to face violent  opposition from real enemies who punched back like unions, communists and so on.  Here and now, not so much a problem.  Resistance is either toothless ("Let Us Vote (please?)") or fringe.  So it's not a comparable slaughter by any means, but it's still a pretty obvious dictatorship.  At this point, there isn't much left but to cancel the elections and even then I doubt the the level of violence will rise to meet your definition of dictatorship.

            "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

            by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:43:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  One leading indicator (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RabidNation, Silverbird, lifexpert

            When I was growing up here, all of America was a "free speech zone."

            "Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
            Hey, Loyal Bushies - elections have consequences. Mostly for you.

            by armadillo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:42:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Are You For Real? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant, lifexpert

            "This diary and those who support it are reckless." - Liberal

            Can you detect trend lines?  Can you connect the dots?

            This diary is reckless in regard to whom?  Regarding the Bush fascist government?

            In this case, recklessness is preferable to negligence.

        •  I am European (21+ / 0-)

          I grew up listening to my grandparents and their generation talk about the war all the time. I never understood how things could have gotten so out of hand. Until the rise of Bush II. I watched horrified and fascinated at the same time, how one small step at a time, by fear mongering, media control, hubris, playing into America's sense of exceptionalism, nationalism, and its love for military symbolism, this country has edged closer and closer to a dictatorship.

          It makes me realy angry when people tell it is disrespectful to compare this administration with the early years of Nazi Germany. I think it is disrespectful and stupid to ignore the warning signs.  

          •  And it makes me angry (3+ / 0-)

            when people don't read for content.  I never once said I was ignoring anything.  I said we need to be concerned and that we have to approach this with reason and rationality.  This diary, and the outrageous comments attached to it stand for the proposition that we are either on the very precipice of a dictatorship or subject to one now.

            Yes, we are further along the continuum, but still nowhere remotely close.  Thus, I find it astoundingly reckless and danderous to go screeming as these folks are that we're there.  Why?  Because when we are there, it'll be too late.

            The recommended diary list at this website, to a significant degree thrives on hyperbole, so damn me all to hell to try to interject a little sober reflection and backing away from the hair-on-fire certainty with which many here get noticed and congratulated.  

            •  I am sorry (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lifexpert, brentmack

              I don't understand your reasoning.

              reckless claims of arrival of dictatorship = danger because if true it is too late.

              •  If these folks say (0+ / 0-)

                we're already there, even if only technically, and the rest of the country doesn't believe that for a moment (which, absent proof to the contrary, I can assure you they don't), then by the timethe diarist's fears of tanks rolling in the streets take place, it will be too late to do something because they people would never believe the outlandish.  

                If, on the other hand, we can demonstrate with reason and rationality that there is a slow slide into a federal government that will seriously erode our rights, and that the time to do something reasonable, rational, and sober is now, I believe we have a much better chance of bringing many more people with us and, with them, a much better chance of stopping this slide before it gets too much closer to reality.

                •  How do you propose (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lifexpert, brentmack

                  to reach this group, and gently inform them of the possible dangers awaiting them? What steps are you taking at this time to inform the masses?  

                  •  Sober discussion with those you know (0+ / 0-)

                    letters to the editor, writing on blogs (again, with reason and rationality), . . .

                    C'mon, you know how to reach people.

                    •  Not on this blog (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kraant, lifexpert, brentmack

                      I hope this is not the crowd you were talking about. How many letters to the editor have you written since the ascension of Bush, and how effective has that been?

                      The polls show that Bush is despised by 70% of the American people. They seem to be aware what a lousy president he is, that doesn't seem to stop Bush in intensifying his powergrab.

                      Now I agree that just lamenting the current state doesn't stop the slide, but staying the course and keeping your powder dry may not be the method to stop Bush either.

              •  Laughing My Ass Off (0+ / 0-)

                "reckless claims of arrival of dictatorship = danger because if true it is too late."

                Yeah, ain't that pathetic?!!!

            •  With All Due Respect... (0+ / 0-)

              "Yes, we are further along the continuum, but still nowhere remotely close." - Liberal

              You're out of your mind.

              You'd better do some homework on what's in store for us after the next "terrorist attack."

              Hell, Tommy Frank was pretty frank about it back around 2003.  Within 48 hours you'll have martial law.  And kiss your country good-bye.

              And it's already stated Dick Cheney policy to attack Iran in the event of any "terrorist attack" regardless of its source.

              WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!  Or at least quit being a do-nothing apologist.  God help us!

        •  ++ on this. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GOTV, DSPS owl

          I agree with GOTV in that we're not there yet.  We can still speak out - we can blog, go out on the street, etc.

          It is not too late yet.

          But if we don't get Bushco out of the White House, full scale fascism, like GOTV's grandparents experienced, may very well be coming.

          It's frustrating.  It's like living in the Star Wars galaxy, with the evil Galactic Empire bringing tyranny down upon all the worlds of the galaxy, yet there's no Rebel Alliance to fight with...

          Waster of electrons, unlawful enemy combatant.

          by meldroc on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:58:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please.. (6+ / 0-)

        If you find our comments offensive don't read them.

        "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

        by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:50:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stop, will you? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrHinkyDink, govib, kyril

          Perhaps, unlike you, I tend to read things that are less than comfy.  I see things I disagree with and speak out.  I thought that's what you and the diarist are doing.  Since when are kossacks with an alternate opinion not allowed to express that opinion.

          Last I read, this ain't no echo chamber.

          •  One of these days I'd like to read a comment (6+ / 0-)

            of yours that actually AGREES with SOMETHING. So far, all I've read from you is aloof sneering.

            Would you care to state a position that you actually approve of?

            We are all criminals until we restore Habeas Corpus, empty secret gulags, end torture and illegal wiretaps. (-2.25, -2.56)

            by EclecticFloridian on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:55:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Looks around; they're there (0+ / 0-)

              It's just that the thing that really gets me going is the all-or-nothing manner in which issues are discussed.  Such concrete thinking is a hallmark of the wingnuts, and I hate to see it here.  So, I rail against it.  

              What I find most distressing, however, is that when I do, most with whom I disagree immediately leap to the notion that I should either stop reading this blog/that diary/those comments or I should just keep my mouth shut.  Sorry, that ain't me, and that ain't what this site is for.  

              •  ... they're still there (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                henna218, brentmack

                LOL, I just can't help myself. Do you realize what you just said?

                You just said that you hate the all-or-nothing discussion methods, so you rail against them. You said that when you disagree you get told to keep your mouth shut.

                Then you made the most important statement of all:

                Sorry, that ain't me, and that ain't what this site is for.

                So here's my question. If that's your reason for saying things that obviously piss people off (me included), why would you expect the rest of us to feel differently about what we want to say?

                We are all criminals until we restore Habeas Corpus, empty secret gulags, end torture and illegal wiretaps. (-2.25, -2.56)

                by EclecticFloridian on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:36:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You Certainly Don't Need This From Me (0+ / 0-)

                but I 100% support your right to say whatever you want, whether respectfully or not.

                If you knew me you would know not only my passion for free speech but my intellectual joy in playing devil's argument.

                I love to argue two sides of any argument.

      •  Dictatorship (18+ / 0-)

        noun
        a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.)  

        Yep, that's what we are.

        PEACE, through superior DIPLOMACY!

        by Walt starr on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:51:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, you're right (19+ / 0-)

        We probably shouldn't say the word until everybody agrees that it has come to pass and we're several years into the tyranny, at least.

        "Don't you dare speak to us like we work for you." - Ben Harper

        by The Termite on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:54:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i bet that dictatorship in italy started with... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rlharry, corvo, Do Tell, brentmack, kyril

        ...illegal search and seizures of possessions as well as persons right?

        see drug war.  we are indeed in such a state, just not outright... yet.

        •  Okay, (3+ / 0-)

          Quit your job, buy lots of armaments, dig a foxhole around your house, find others, train vigorously, and storm the White House.  Die trying!

          If you can't do that, you're not taking this seriously enough or acting in keeping with the urgency you claim this situation to warrant.  

          I'm serious, friend; get a grip.

          •  Great idea.. thnx. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, Shirl In Idaho, brentmack

            "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

            by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:25:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  i think this diary is trying to (9+ / 0-)

            look a little further down the road and warn us where it leads to.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that America is currently indistinguishable from 1938 Italy.

            Ignoring the warning signs until such a time comes when freedom of speech = potential execution is reckless to say the least.

            Invoking the talk about your grandparents and what they went through certainly sounds to me like you're looking for the first excuse you can find to prouldly put on your 'my grandparents lived through fascist Italy' button.

            "The Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi on why impeachment is "off the table".

            by pullbackthecurtain on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:25:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's the "find others" part (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shirl In Idaho

            that requires some discussion, and this is our town hall.

            Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

            by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:45:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  why don't YOU get a grip... (7+ / 0-)

            ...why don't you for ONCE try addressing the point at hand... just once.

            i mentioned that the 4th and 10th amendments are already gone... bye bye.

            you start blathering about foxholes to make yourself feel better for your misplaced defence of republicans' historical fascist tendencies.

            i don't think those fucks are either capable nor close to a fascist state... YET.

            the precursors are ALL in place... friend.

            why don't you in your glorious condescension try, for once, to direct your reply to the fucking point at hand instead of just being a prick huh?

          •  It's okay to be the "crazy one" in your family! (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shpilk, kraant, kyril

            When I was younger, I dated a woman who had no grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins; whatever. Just her nuclear family. Her father had been the "crazy one" in the family; gave up a slot in the gymnasium, and a pretty good prospective career, to run away from home. He ran away, because he read the newspapers, and listened to Radio Deutchland. So, after the war, he had a second or third cousin in Israel, and someone in his family got their name on the memorial to the Warsaw Ghetto Resistance Fighters

            I live in earthquake country. We're supposed to have food, water and light squirreled away. It doesn't do me any harm to make a few longer term preparations. I don't mind being called crazy. I certainly dont mind being wrong. In fact, I'd rather be wrong. But if things turn out badly, have plans. Be prepared to go into the heart of the cities, or the depths of the wilds, if need be. Don't worry about finding me I'll find you.

      •  I'm sorry? (27+ / 0-)

        You have this backwards.  It doesn't degrade the experiences of anyone who lived or died under a dictatorship, including fascist Italy, to discuss openly and seriously whether our country is on that path.

        I'm from a German Jewish family.  I have lived my entire life with the specter of the holocaust.  In my family.  In the families of my friends.  And in the empty places where family members are missing because of the Nazis.  And pretty much everywhere else.  

        You owe it to your family -- as I do to mine -- to take seriously the question of whether we are becoming a dictatorship.

        "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

        by Bartimaeus Blue on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:05:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The lesson should be... (14+ / 0-)

          ... to head it off before it ever gets that bad again.

          That's how to respect those who have suffered under tyranny: for us to see the signs and act to prevent the slide to authoritarianism before our republic too closely resembles fascist Italy or Germany.

          The only thing we need to do is fully repudiate and bury the conservative movement, reform the media, and give the Democratic party a spine.

          by Malacandra on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:11:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My in-laws' family, too. (0+ / 0-)

          Polish Jews.  I take this question seriously, and know enough of history to say we're not even close to what this diarist says is immenent and others on this thread say is here.  It's disgusting bullshit to equate what is going on in this country with--as bad as it is--the horror of what our families lived through.

          •  I think they would be more disgusted (11+ / 0-)

            with your denial of how dictators come to power than with the pre-mature labeling by some concerned citizens.

            First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
            Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
            because I wasn’t a Jew.
            Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
            Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

            link

            "The Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi on why impeachment is "off the table".

            by pullbackthecurtain on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:30:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What would you have us do? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brentmack, LucyMO, kyril

            Given your reading of the current situation, what actions do you think the average citizen should take? Are the usual measures--calling your elected representatives, etc.--sufficient to reverse the slow destruction of democracy in the US?

            •  All that, yes (0+ / 0-)

              And, more importantly, engage others in reasoned and rational arguments based upon facts and not outlandish appeals to the gut.  Tell me, just how many people are you going to convince that there is serious cause for concern by telling them that we now live in a dictatorship?  This country survived a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of us, and a president to eliminated the right of habeas corpus by something more direct than the artifice of enemy combatant status, and we're here 140 years later.

              You giv eBush too much power by declaring him some comic book maniacal monster set to jail dissenters and cancel elections.  

              •  My Dear Friend.. (0+ / 0-)

                and I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm glad you brought up Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War.

                First, if our country was actaully in the midst of a real civil war, martial law WOULD be the logical result, it would make sense to me.

                Lincoln was quite restrained given he suspended Habeas Corpus only in areas near the capital, not the entire United States, and considering the true national emergency then, was quite justified.

                As I have said elsewhere, my diary's image of tanks in the street and suspensions of elections may have been a bit dramatic (although I believe not impossible), but not only did the Military Commissions Act signed into law last year, in effect, give the President dictatorial authority by allowing him to suspend ANY person's Habeas Corpus right, the most fundamental of rights, by merely declaring him an enemy combatant, but the Bush government has actually arrested both Americans and non-Americans with no probable cause and thrown them in military prisons for years without trial.

                The Bush government has already sent people to secret CIA torture prisons and directed torture like Abu Gharib.

                The Bush government has already illegally wiretapped and God knows what else against anyone they damn well pleased, without court oversight.

                The Bush government has already established a pattern of signing statements basically neutering Congress' equal branch authority and relevance.

                Now, you may think I'm an ignorant idiot. I am fully aware that the Bush government is pushing the limits of executive power as far as they can GET AWAY WITH.

                As long as skeptics like you exist to give them cover and the majority of Americans are more worried about their day to day life and/or their family's safety then their Constitutional freedoms, power-hungry people like the Bush government will chip away at those freedoms until they are a hallow shell, and MOST Americans will be oblivous.

                And as I just read, even though we may not necessarily have tanks in the streets, or official martial law declared, or elections suspended, I remember General Tommy Franks, Bush's lackey commander in Iraq stated, unequitably that if we have another 9/11 like event "marial law" will be declared in 48 hours.

                Now, please argue Tommy Franks is a nutcase.

                Look here and see not only a reference to Franks statement, but a comment about how the President has the ability to declare Martial Law via the 2007 Defence Appropriation Bill from last fall.

                If you wanted to criticze the source of this as unreliable, Google it yourself.

                Believe you me, I want this to be all fantasyland. I want to rest easy and I would proudly wear the title QUACK if we reach 2009 and all is right with the world.

                But even then, even if we have a Democratic president, we are NOT out of the woods regarding our freedom. All the precedences Bush is etsablishing would carry over to whoever is President and our Constitution could be threatened whether we have a Republican or Democrat in office.

                My alarm is regarding the potential death of our Constitution, not WHO kills it.

                Regarding your Itallian relatives under fascist Italy, I am sympahetic and would never claim to know what they went through.

                We are not living in 1940s Italy today, but we may be living in the late 1920s or early 1930s Italy, a time before fascism was obvious, but beginning to rear it's ugly head, and most people said, "Aww, it's not so bad".

                I remember the reaction of 1930s European Jews who heard RUMORS of Jewish extermination camps - they were incredulous, they refused to believe that was possible because they lived in a "modern democratic society". They were incredulous until they were marching naked in the camps themselves.

                Will the United States round up people in extermination camps? (Well, maybe not extermination, ask West Coast Japaneese families about FDR's hospitality camps).

                I don't know who you are and you are entitled to your opinion, to your skepticism, to whatever the hell you want to say, go for it. But you don't explicitedly address some of the arguments here, you seem to dismiss them out of hand.

                Perhaps you are symphathetic to those who want the federal government to have greater power to "protect us" or you are too frightened (and refuse to see it) that you are in denial - for your own mental sanity.

                I hope for all our sakes, I and those who think like me, are the kooks and YOU are the rational SANE one.

                Here's to you! (I mean it)

          •  You're a Bullshit-Meister (0+ / 0-)

            "I take this question seriously, and know enough of history to say we're not even close to what this diarist says is immenent and others on this thread say is here." - Liberal

            I don't believe a word you say.  It makes NO SENSE.

            You're either comatose or just a fucking liar, because you've broken the mold.  NOBODY who's been closely touched by dictatorship would take your wait and see attitude.

            You're a phony!

      •  There's a difference between (8+ / 0-)

        saying we ARE living in a fascist state like former Italy, and saying we're in DANGER of becoming a fascist state.  You can't deny there are many, many similarities between our time and the time when Hitler came to power.  Not all of course, but many.

        Again, V for Vendetta makes a strong case for this.

        Never give up! Never surrender!

        by oscarsmom on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:35:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A friend of mine lives in Argentina (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, brentmack, kyril, Groucho Marxist

        and they kidnapped his father in the 1970s because he was a socialist.  Just knocked on the door and spirited him away.  He was one of the lucky ones because he came back; many didn't.

        I don't think the dictatorship is here quite yet, but you know, I'm getting nervous.  My hope is that if it happens, if they start killing us, we resist so fiercely that the government falls apart and a better, saner one is formed.  My hope is that during that crack-up, the landing is softer rather than harder, and that at least the spirit of the U. S. Constitution prevails, if not the letter.

        I might have to dig into my Heinlein again and read "Free Men."

        I have seen the fnords.

        by rhubarb on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:02:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ah yes, Dictatorship (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, DSPS owl, brentmack, LucyMO, saildude, kyril

        DeFazio asks, but he's denied access

        Classified info - The congressman wanted to see government plans for after a terror attack Friday, July 20, 2007JEFF KOSSEFF The Oregonian Staff
        WASHINGTON -- Oregonians called Peter DeFazio's office, worried there was a conspiracy buried in the classified portion of a White House plan for operating the government after a terrorist attack.

        As a member of the U.S. House on the Homeland Security Committee, DeFazio, D-Ore., is permitted to enter a secure "bubbleroom" in the Capitol and examine classified material. So he asked the White House to see the secret documents.

        On Wednesday, DeFazio got his answer: DENIED.

        "[snip]

        "Maybe the people who think there's a conspiracy out there are right," DeFazio said.

        Jeff Kosseff: 202-383-7814 jeff.kosseff@newhouse.com

        More here

        PEACE, through superior DIPLOMACY!

        by Walt starr on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:59:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, YOU Have No Idea (0+ / 0-)

        "You have no idea what a dictatorship is...
        and for those of my family who lived in fascist Italy, I find your comments dismissively offensive to what they suffered through.  Get real." - Liberal.

        To borrow a phrase from the old "Six Million Dollar Man" series, "We have the technology."

        They've got the technology today to make Benito look like a kindergarten child.  And don't YOU forget it!

    •  Where are these EO's? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant

      Executive Order 13303 of May 22, 2003, and expanded in Executive Order 13315 of August 28, 2003, and relied upon for additional steps taken in Executive Order 13350 of July 29, 2004, and Executive Order 13364 of November 29, 2004.

      I have been back and forth in the Whitehouse list of EO's and cannot find them.  I want to sit down and read them to get exactly what types of powers he has granted himself....

      Thanks.

      It was a time of desperate need for heroes - any kind of heroes. "Twice Upon a Time"

      by doingbusinessas on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:17:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, It is here now and it is happening to me! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant, brentmack

      I was raided by Homeland Security Wednesday  
      for filming Kinder Morgan in the act of polluting. Myself and others in the community opposed the companies permit to expand their operation.

      I have been documenting them polluting the areas waters and surrounding neighborhoods. Something they deny. It is sort of hard to deny it when someone catches it on film though. The solution?? Call Homeland Security if you are a multi billion dollar corporation.

      I live on my sailboat and was boarded and searched with out a warrant

      Multi billion dollar corporation using the govt. security apparatus to it's own ends.

      Here is a link to a local article:

      Kinder Morgan Resorts to Harassment

      Today I was told by the Coast Guard that Homeland Security was wrong and that the area is not in an exclusion zone.

      Bottom line, they searched me and my boat without a warrant.

      Bastards

      In case of rapture...can I have your stuff?

      by saildude on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:50:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  more likely a plutocracy masquerading as a (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant, livy

      democracy.  The PRI model from Mexico comes to mind.  Do your best to control the elections, promote cronyism, and avoid accountability by massive stacking of the deck in the media, the courts,....

      Just look at all these ridiculous republican biased stories coming out.  I am blown away.  It makes no sense if there is really no journalistic bias.  These guys for the NY Times, for example - Hulse and Zeleny-- presumably after much pounding produce a good piece yesterday which illustrates a knowledge about the fillibuster and the republican obstructionism, after each produced totally republican framed pieces on Saturday and Wednesday.  Then today Hulse produces a piece suggesting that there are worse relationships in the Senate today than last year and the dems are to blame.  

      Holy cow!  

      All I can say for hope is we keep fighting from our positions of strength (the blogs, Air America, Media Matters....) and keep pounding the media and BushCo.  

  •  Tip Jar (136+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
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  •  even my own republican wife is afraid of this (45+ / 0-)

    scenario playing out, the EO in May  about the power grab to continue the government in the event of an "attack"  bothered the hell out of her  and she was a big Bush/Rumsfeld  supporter until about a year ago  even she wanted Rummy fired before the election  if they have lost her  then many people are thinking along these same lines  you are not alone

    "A journey of a thousand miles begins with but one step"

    by testvet6778 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:46:27 AM PDT

    •  You are right (12+ / 0-)

      Bush is saying "bring it on" with every cell in his body. The goal is to push the envelope past any limit, as far as possible, and so far not many are willing to object in any meaningful way. These "it is the sense of the Congress" bullshit bills with no teeth are pure window dressing with no bite. I feel like we have slipped through the looking glass and are watching the Mad Hatter's tea party... and there's no impeachment on that tea table.

      Which brings me to my question. What makes any of us think that even bringing impeachment against Bushco would have any effect, other than to hasten along the crisis they seem to be baiting us into? If they will not answer subpoenas, if they are soon to be declared in contempt of Congress, and still they blithely persist in stonewalling, what the fuck makes anyone think that impeachment would even work? Seriously, I ask this as someone who is 1000% FOR impeachment.

      Congressional Dems say that history will call the Bush regime a "miserable failure." What will history say about those who sat back and let it happen? IMPEACH!

      by Lisa Lockwood on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:00:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good question. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grrtigger, Hawksana, lcrp, brentmack, geomoo, kyril

        I have been thinking along the same lines.  Bush/Cheney are so above the law now that impeachment may not work, but I still want Congress to give it a try.  I find it hard to believe that Congress, both Democrats and Republics, can't see what is happening.  I know that many of us Kossacks have written, phoned, faxed our Congresscritters only to be rebuffed with form letters or responses that continue to show their obliviousness to the threat.  Where are our leaders?  Who even wants that dubious honor, knowing what could happen to him/her?

        I am hoping that the many recently retired high ranking military aren't sitting back on their laurels.

      •  A purpose of impeachment, even if it failed, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grrtigger, Hawksana, brentmack

        would be to make explicit the unconstitutionality of the executive.  In precisely the same way that the GOP needs to be forced to filibuster instead of just threatening to filibuster.  Excuse the repetitiveness, but I keep thinking of Ghandi's theory of civil disobedience.  A scene from the movie which stuck with me was the long line of resistors, lining up to receive violence from the oppressors.  It is important to force them to make good on their threats--then the violence (and unconstitutionality) underlying the system of tyranny is exposed.

        The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

        by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:18:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't get me wrong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DSPS owl, geomoo

          please, I am all for impeachment. Have been for the past 4+ years, fwiw. And I am not saying it shouldn't be tried...again and again and again, if necessary.
          I'm just wondering what makes any of us think it will have any affect on an executive gone mad/drunk with power and his own 'vision' of himself as a historic President.
          He always seems to want to differ any criticism upon him until some distant, future date, when history will be his judge. Frankly, I'm not all that sure he cares whether history says he was the worst President ever, or the first American dictator...either way, history will surely have something to say of him.

          Congressional Dems say that history will call the Bush regime a "miserable failure." What will history say about those who sat back and let it happen? IMPEACH!

          by Lisa Lockwood on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:36:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well put! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brentmack

            Frankly, I'm not all that sure he cares whether history says he was the worst President ever, or the first American dictator...either way, history will surely have something to say of him.

            FWIW, I think it is very important that historians can point to a very serious impeachment proceeding, no matter how it pans out.  I'd rather they could write that, than that they just can write that a few thousand people on lefty blogs got it, but they weren't able to convince the House to do anything.

            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

            by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:34:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Let's just imagine that Bushco jumps the shark (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brentmack

        to such a degree that even the folks in Congress are shocked. The House could complete the impeachment proceedings as quickly as it desired. The Senate could also conduct the trial at as rapid a pace as it desired. If Congress was so inclined, it could wrap the whole thing up in short order. What does anyone expect that Bush and Cheney could do once they are removed from office? Is the fear that they would simply ignore being removed from office, or is the fear that they would somehow prevent the impeachment process from even moving forward? As to the first, once removed from office, they have no power. No one is going to carry out their directives. As to the second, I just don't see how they could possibly stop Congress from carrying out impeachment proceedings if Congress decided to do so. What are they going to do, arrest all of the members of Congress? As brazenly authoritarian as I see these guys, I still don't see them going that far.

        There's one way to find out if a man is honest - ask him. If he says, "Yes," you know he is a crook. ~Groucho Marx

        by Busted Flat in Baton Rouge on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:29:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They could certainly (0+ / 0-)

          deal harshly with critics in the House and Senate who question their methods... witness the letter sent to Senator Clinton, all but accusing her of treason "lite".  Being alarmist, but hell...this seems to be the day for it, no?

          Congressional Dems say that history will call the Bush regime a "miserable failure." What will history say about those who sat back and let it happen? IMPEACH!

          by Lisa Lockwood on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:38:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Let's just imagine that Bushco jumps the shark (0+ / 0-)

          Exactly.  What are they going to do?  They're done.

          If they WERE dumb enough to put up some sort of fight, well, that's what torches and pitchforks were invented for.

          And speaking of Benito - Bush and Cheney just might find themselves hanging upside down by the time all was said and done.

          I kinda like that idea.  So if you're up to it, Bush, bring it on!

    •  Watch out - I thought long and hard about this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grrtigger

      and came to the conclusion he WANTS CIVIL UNREST so he can round up as many of us as possible. That's why NONVIOLENCE is so important

      Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

      by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:53:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Will not happen (22+ / 0-)

    Bush is backed by corporations, who would stand to lose big if a "coup" were attempted.  The first thing that would happen following Bush declaring martial law or not stepping down after the 2008 elections would be a market crash unlike any we've seen, as all foreign investors would pull their money out and many US investors would too in the ensuing panic.  Bush also lacks the support (and availability) of the military and law enforcement to pull anything this drastic off.  This is nothing more than another wild eyed conspiracy theory.

    •  Blackwater is the SS (15+ / 0-)

      HItler didn't have the sort of support you mention, so he controlled the military with an elite SS - a sort of a 1930s style Blackwater.

      The market crash didn't take place with Hitler, but Hitler was seen as being competent - if nothing else. Bush of course isn't.

      But I don't think Bush cares if the market crashes. That only hurts the American people and I don't think Bush gives a rats ass about the American people. When the harm from the crash is balanced against the benefit of a lifetime term, the lifetime term wins hands down.

      •  The Wehrmacht hated Hitler (35+ / 0-)

        and despised the SS, but once the Nazis had been democratically elected, the German Army oweed the Fuerher its allegiance. Sorry folks, but same scenario is developing in the U.S. I know it insults your national pride and sense of history, but from out here in the ROTW (Rest Of The World), it's clear as day and has been since just a few days after 9/11.

        •  Good comment. Spare us the condescension please. (0+ / 0-)

          The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

          by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:24:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It don't think it was intended (8+ / 0-)

            to be condescending. I think for most European's the realization that something frightening was going on, dawned when Bush started talking about good versus evil, crusades and you are with us or against us.  

            It is very difficult for an outsider to point out to Americans, that things may be getting out of hand, and suggest that you may not always be right or righteous, without being called an American hater, pussy or a cheese eating french coward.

            •  Thanks for the good explanation. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant, drbloodaxe, kyril

              But I take offense because I've not been blind to this either.  I would guess it's about the same percentage of people in both places who have a clear view of what is happening.  Still, I hear what you're saying and it makes perfect sense.

              The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

              by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:15:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You know what has people in my town really hot (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant

                under the collar.  A smoking ban in public places.  that reveived more letters to the editor than any other issue in the past two or three years here.  Some of you may be up on all this information, but most people are way behind the curve.  

                We must be free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it. -- William Faulkner --

                by Silverbird on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:01:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm sorry. I was just thinking about Michael Vick (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kraant

                  Now what were you saying?  :)

                  Seriously, I'm on the email list of relatives who are religious fundamentalists.  I periodically receive bulk emails from them ranting hysterically about the latest liberal travesty.  One I remember was about taking "In God We Trust" off the money.  Their level of outrage over these created crises is as high or higher than ours here over the prospect of losing constitutional government in America.  So, you are right.

                  Still, based on the recent election results in France, not to mention the disturbing popularity of a racist candidate, just to take a couple of easy examples, I think we all have our ignorance to confront.

                  The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                  by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:09:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Of course, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kraant, DSPS owl, livy

                    Ignorant people are everywhere in equal percentages. The political landscape in many European countries will swing between left and right. It is difficult to compare European politics with American politics.
                    I was fascinated with the fact that the extreme right wing(for the Netherlands that is)Pim Fortuyn voters, split up between another right wing nut and the socialist party.

                    The thing I always appreciated in Americans was their love for the constitution and their faith in their system of checks and balances, and frankly I am horrified by the fact that it is breaking down.

                    I belief Europeans in general are more recognizant of the signs of facsism, for obvious reasons. That doesn't mean European countries will never again turn into dictatorships. At this time the parliamentary systems we have don't allow for a powerful executive like the US presidency.

                    You have to understand that the kind of nationalistic rhetoric that Bush was uttering, combined with the flag waving, the declarations of loyalty to the leader, talk of homeland and supremacy, and the clearly defined dark and evil enemy who is out to destroy the good and light as symbolized by the American people, is something we only know from speeches by Hitler. We would expect this kind of rhetoric from Kim Jong Il, Sadam Hoessein or Ahmadinejad, but not from the leader of the US.

                     

                    •  Yes, it is embarrassing. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kraant

                      I just lost my whole post, so I'll re-write what I have the patience for.

                      I have always felt that, for the most part, people get the leaders/oppressors they deserve.  Those at the top are a reflection of the culture at large.  For this reason, I have always felt people were at least somewhat responsible for their own problems, even in cases like Saddam.  How many times have we seen oppressors overthrown, only to see them replaced by an equally oppressive regime that may or may not spout a new ideology?

                      So, now it's our turn.  I feel keenly that it is the responsibility of America first to rescue the rest of the world from these imperialists.  Still, I have wondered why other governments have been so civil and cooperative.  Why did the IMF, for example, take so long to get rid of Wolfowitz?  I remember a German minister accusing the neocons of "pillaging the treasury" early on, and naturally the French disagree with everyone just out of habit, but for the most part I haven't seen the hoped for resistance.

                      Have I just missed it because of provincial US coverage?  Are they afraid?  Did the US manipulate the election in France?  I would love to hear your take on this matter.

                      BTW, it's weird to see conservatives split between fascism and socialism.  Our Libertarian Party embodies similar contradictions.

                      The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                      by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:29:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't belief people here (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kraant

                        want America to save us from these dictators. European diplomacy would try to entice changes through economic incentives. We know Iran and North-Korea are not a threat to us. I think European leaders and diplomats are more sensitive to the fact that nothing is more dangerous than humiliating a dictator.

                        As for the Wolfowitz affair. I knew Wolfowitz was gone the moment the story broke. Especially when Europe indicated that the custom of having the US appoint the head of the world bank may come to an end if Bush would insist in keeping Wolfowitz in his position, made it clear to me that he was not staying. It may take a while, and a lot of negotiating about the terms of his departure may have taken place in the background, but he was going to leave.

                        •  I may have been unclear (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          kraant, DSPS owl

                          I feel keenly that it is the responsibility of America first to rescue the rest of the world from these imperialists.

                          By "these imperialists" I mean Bush and his gang.

                          I'm glad to hear the Wolfowitz matter was more decisive than it appeared.  But I wondered why the Europeans even negotiated.  Why didn't they just take away that unfair right of the US to appoint?  I guess it's just the snail's pace of politics and diplomacy.

                          Why aren't European leaders naming Bush for the evil idiot he is?  Is this happening, but more behind the scenes?  I'm baffled when I see them having to treat him with a dignity he doesn't deserve.  I know they must follow protocol, but they could also give indications that they're not going to sit by and let a gang of neocons take over the world.  Why don't they block him more?

                          The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                          by geomoo on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:55:50 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Interesting that Amsterdam mis-read (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kraant

                            what you meant by "these imperialists"!  I read it as you meant it.

                            I, too, wish that EU and others were less respectful of Bushco, but as you say, protocol needs must be followed.  People here were totally shocked that so many millions voted R in 2004, and haven't got over it yet.  (Me neither.)

                            I certainly can't claim to follow European politics, hardly even Norway's.  But (small) things do happen which aren't going to make the evening news.  For example, Norway pulled its last troops out of Iraq late in 2005 and the government has solemnly promised that the remaining troops in Afghanistan are not under U.S. command.  I imagine that the American powers-that-be know that, but they're not eager to tell you.

                            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

                            by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:24:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's a good example (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kraant, DSPS owl

                            I didn't know they pulled the troops out.  Hooray for Norway!  I do know that Italy had a huge demonstration against a military base in their country, but that doesn't seem to be translating into government action.

                            I hope people in Europe are aware that the election was stolen in 2004, just as in 2000.  Most people accepted the ridiculous conclusion that exit polls must have been way off.  Anyway, please be aware that we kicked them out, democratically speaking, in 2004.  Still, that the election was so close is very troublesome.  If you saw the 24/7 surrealism being put out by our television networks, you might be surprised that so many people voted D.  As you must get from reading here, lies and unaccountability are the rule rather than the exception.

                            I'm a patriot, so it's odd being in the position of wanting my own country to have less influence.  I'm counting on other countries to eventually make this hurt the US.  I mean, these guys are dreaming of world domination, not just US domination.  And they want to control the oil supply.  And I think China is on board with the program.  It is incumbent on Europe to stand up for itself, even if it means short term economic or diplomatic sacrifice.  I'm puzzled by the behavior of European governments.

                            The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                            by geomoo on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:16:45 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Stolen in 2004. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            geomoo

                            OK, I sort of believe that.  And I tried to use that argument a couple of times, but I gave it up real quick.  I have no argument against the obvious responses:

                            • It should never have been close enough to steal!
                            • If elections aren't nearly 100% tamper-proof, that should be a top priority item for Americans to do something about!

                            Anyway, stolen or not, people I know had a great deal of sympathy for us ordinary Americans before the 2004 election.  Since, not so much.

                            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

                            by DSPS owl on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 11:31:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right on all counts (0+ / 0-)

                            You're correct.  I'm quite satisfied myself that it was stolen, but it has not been proven.  And anyway, the reaction from abroad is deserved and understandable.

                            In case you're interested, here is my experience election day.  I worked in New Hampshire all day.  And all day we were getting our exit poll results.  The official count was off our exit results by several percentage points, even though Bush still lost NH.  A worker who is much more of a pol than I (I'm only involved because things have become so dire) explained to me that they skimmed enough votes from NH to win the popular count, but the electoral votes they stole were from Ohio.  I believe that to be true, but I don't have proof.  After the election, the idiotic national discussion, to the extent there was one, was about what is so wrong with exit polls.  Only because people are not grounded in statistical methods and the well-researched science of polling do these discussions last at all.

                            Well, anyway, I'm beating a dead horse and it doesn't change anything.  Your points are unassailable.

                            The only frame change that matters: the corporate media = propaganda machine. Americans must find their news elsewhere.

                            by geomoo on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:17:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  No he didn't (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, kraant

        The Waffen-SS was not used to 'control' the German Army. The Wehrmacht leadership was perfectly content to have Hitler in charge - no outside control was needed. The entire W-SS was only a regiment in size (a couple thousand guys)as late as 1939. It didn't grow into a second army until later.  

      •  I once had an old friend... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, kyril, livy

        ...who survived the 1st wave at Normandy Beach(he was in the Big Red One) all the way through the occupation. He recalled to me seeing the Russians lining up all the surviving POW SS troops and each one getting a bullet in the back of the head without a trial. They were summarily shot. How did they know they were SS? Because each one of them had their SS serial numbers tattooed on their right arms!

        The three Deaths Heads divisions of the Waffen SS were the most hated German troops in Russia. They were a major factor in the merciless treatment of the Russians, who believe it or not, actually looked to Hitler's Wermacht as "liberators" at first!

        At least until they began their relentless, brutal massacre of innocent Russian men, women, and children. Then they realized Stalin wasn't so bad after all. The SS would line them up in rows of ten so one or two bullets would do the job. They didn't even think they were worth one bullet apiece!

        "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:51:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I fully agree, and one additional point (13+ / 0-)

      I've made the similar argument on my posts that this kind of action would freeze the economy.  But more broadly, I think that there is some attempt by the administration to do something to pivot the advantage back to the Republicans.  I think Chertoff's gut feeling talk and Townsend's high risk to another attack talk is meant to try and PROVOKE an attack by a terrorist cell in the US.  They are trying to get the word out that we know your out there and we are closing in on you.  But the don't intend to 'get' them persay, as much as they want to provoke them to act, to strike because once they do that, it gives Bush their opening.  So this is were us Democrats need counter measures and need to be speaking loudly and clearly that the Bush administration has failed us in terms of homeland security.  The fight them over so we don't have to fight them here talking point has to be crushed, to a pulp.

      •  Trial balloons and other hot air filled things... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, kyril

        ...In politics it's often called a "trial balloon".

        ...Or: "Cognizant dissonance". "Plausible deniability". "Covering your hind six". "Passing the buck". "Job security".

        Chertoff knows a lot more than we'll ever know. He'll publicly say a lot less than what he can or will say. When it happens he'll say, "I told you I felt it in my guts". As if that absolves them!

        I believe with all my heart their intent is never to leave "on schedule" in January, 2009. I personally believe they're evil and they're playing for all the marbles. Another 9/11 (and may God forbid it does) would play right into this meme and would be looked upon by them as a "sign from God" that Bush or one of his Bush-lite clones was chosen to lead America, forever.

        The 2006 election didn't make them miss a step-or change the goal to reduce the Dems to permanent minority party status. But listening to shills like Bill Orally makes me believe it could be even more ominous than what we all once suspected.

        The rhetoric against Hillary yesterday could very well mean the beginning of the end of lawful dissent, martial law, massive renditions and imprisonment. In short, we are on the cusp of being a de facto police state, imo.

        Whether it's Bush, or Cheney or a Bush-lite clone, remains to be seen. To all those who disagree for whatever reasons, I say: I'll believe they're leaving when and if I see it. I agree with the diarest. My money says they're NOT leaving! If I'm wrong all I lose is my money. If I'm right all the money in the world won't matter.  

        A lot can happen in 17 months, imo. A lot can happen on the way to the inauguration. It's a long way to go until January 20, 2009 folks.

        "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:37:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  a police state is dead economy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          I guess the 11.9% growth in China (police state mafia government) are great things but most Chinese live in shit poor poverty.  A police state in this country may not send the GDP into negative territory but it will extract more and more wealth from one set of Americans to a smaller and smaller set of Americans.  It'll be a vicious, painful cycle.  I think Bush has had enough of being President, Karl Rove definately wants to play chess for alot longer as he trys to pivot the electorate back to the Republicans by hook or crook.  For what purpose I have no idea, because the America he is creating is not the America he grew up in.  In fact, it will simply be a hollowed out shell of a great union of liberty, crippled by a tiny minority consumed by greed and power.  So if the oil and gas companies are so enraged by the expectations of the masses to change the direction of the economy away from carbon, they should count their blessings.  Because they will govern a world crippled by drought, war, instability, a crashing dollar all brought on by the slow but certain crisis caused by ignoring global climate change.

    •  The coup occurred in 2000... (27+ / 0-)

      These are dangerous and unscrupulous individuals who owe no fealty to the US or its citizens.  One has only to look at the shocking, cynical and callous disregard for the entire gulf coast during Katrina to realize that, at the very best, Bush and his minion are entirely disinterested in governance...UNLESS it means more money and power for themselves and their backers.

      Laws, beliefs, morality, human life mean NOTHING to these individuals and their lockstepping followers.

      "We're all working for the Pharoah" - Richard Thompson

      by mayan on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:21:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is certainly what I've been expecting too... (12+ / 0-)

        since the Iraq War got going at least. These people are nuts but they aren't stupid. They didn't plan the war well in Iraq sure, but they planned the laws and oil over there just fine. The war didn't really concern them. They know what they're doing.

        I've always thought it absurdly naive to think they're just gonna pick up and leave when their time is up. Why would they when they can formulate a plan to stick around? Cheney is wacked out enough to do it. The guy thinks nothing of getting on TV still (when it suits him to leave his bunker) and tell us how Al Qaeda and Saddam WERE working together! I hope I'm wrong believe me, but another 9/11 would make martial law quite a possibility. The fact that the new laws would be ready to roll out when it happens may just be another coincidence a la Patriot Act...I hope like Rockwell, "that I'm just paranoid"...

        •  I hold out hope... (8+ / 0-)

          that the Waxmans, Leahys, and Conyers (and their posses) are individual of unimpeachable (no pun intended) integrity.  I have to believe that they are as aware, if not more aware (being inside, savvy players) of what is happening and the incendiary nature of the political conflict.

          I invoke Heisenberg's principle...I can tell the momentum and can't tell the position and/or vice verse.  One of two things appear to be happening:

          1.  Either the Conspirator in Chief is on the verge of perfecting the Fourth Reich...a distinct possibility; or
          1.  The Conspirator in Chief is bricking himself and his minion more and more into an ever tightening stonewall bunker with Congressional overseers methodically closing in around them.

          (I don't know if there's a whole lot of room for other scenarios that I can envision.  I guess any number of events could happen...acts of nature; world events; Van Helsing could finally come across Cheney's crypt and nail him in his black heart; Bush could have another more severe pretzel incident...whatever.)

          I don't know that the courts are THAT far gone.  They may be.  I have a hard time believing that Kennedy has gone so far over to the Dark Side...although it's a possibility that is distinct enough to be very discomfitting.  

          Thus, I believe that the Congressionals are this country's last best hope.  Some may be more heartened than others.  It is their job to skillfully educate the public through hearings and their respective bully pulpits about the dangers that are closing in.  

          Bush CANNOT...absolutely CANNOT let investigators penetrate an inch of the defenses that have been built around the throbbing metastasis that has become our federal government.  Literally any inroad into the meerest chink in Castle Perilous will reveal conspiracy and crime interlinked to other conspiracy and crime, world without end, amen.  I repeat.  This will not be allowed.

          So, the question I have is whether Congress is going to stand on its hind legs...or whether certain powerful members of Congress are going to stand on their hind legs...and blow Bush's house down or whether they are going to ineffectually wilt at Bush's bluff.  I just don't know.  I really don't.  It is excrutiatingly frightening to me that these appear to be the only options, however.

          (PS...I do take heart that Heisenberg's principle does not allow me the full scope of vision.  I have been reading about FDR.  It is ironic (and a bit ironically comforting) that many folks from the Right were HOWLING about Roosevelt's tyranny and dictatorship.  This leads me to believe that there is a continuity that, while hateable, does not allow us to know the true locii of what is happening as events unfold.  Scant comfort.)

          The fact of the matter is, events need to play out.  If we are a dictatorship, well then damnit let's rip the no-longer friendly rubber mask of humanity off the friggin' mask of the Iron Monolity.  I prefer my bad news straight up.  At least then we know what we have to deal with. And what we need to fight against.  And with what weapons.  

          "We're all working for the Pharoah" - Richard Thompson

          by mayan on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:03:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To quote myself... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            I worte this an hour before I heard about Bush's colonoscopy.  See!!  ANYTHING can happen.

            (I don't know if there's a whole lot of room for other scenarios that I can envision.  I guess any number of events could happen...acts of nature; world events; Van Helsing could finally come across Cheney's crypt and nail him in his black heart; Bush could have another more severe pretzel incident...whatever.)

            "We're all working for the Pharoah" - Richard Thompson

            by mayan on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:53:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, please. (0+ / 0-)

            If we are a dictatorship, well then damnit let's rip the no-longer friendly rubber mask of humanity off the friggin' mask of the Iron Monolity.  I prefer my bad news straight up.  At least then we know what we have to deal with. And what we need to fight against.  And with what weapons.

            Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

            by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:47:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Something else to chew on... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril

          ...Doesn't it seem even remotely strange that the Commander-in-Chief of al-Qaeda, OBL, has no problem at all accessing the WH and our MSM with his video feeds and threatening tapes? But we can't seem to find kill or capture him! What's wrong with this picture?

          I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying it, that with all of the technology and military satellites, we can't find and stop the one beating heart on this planet that killed so many thousands of Americans right here on our shores!

          At the very least this is dereliction of duty. At the worst, it's complicity to enable Bush's boogey man so they can have their "war on terra"! The fact he is still free and in operational command feeds directly into the repub memes. A case could be made that he is worth much more to Bush alive than he is dead. He's made it abundantly clear, (and he doesn't have to hit me between the eyes with a 2x4) that he hates us!

          "Our past patriots are spinning in their graves. Did they all die for this tyranny?" Change Course. Change Captains. Change crews. But save the ship!

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:05:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  said this four years ago (0+ / 0-)

            and have said it intermittently since then. osama bin laden does not exist.

            just name him emmanuel goldstein and be done with it already.

            Capitalism is the most barbaric of all religions. - Mark Stewart

            by RabidNation on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:05:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  How many have thought "it won't happen" (22+ / 0-)

      in the annals of history?

      How many empires have arisen then fallen while the populace denied the realities of the day?

      I am no longer among those who say, "it couldn't happen here. Not in 'MY' country."

      "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

      by witchamakallit on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:32:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I Pray you are right (13+ / 0-)

      I would LOVE for this to be a wild-eye conspiracy theory. I would happily be called a nutcase if this is wrong and there is no real danger here.

      All I know is we already have a bill signed by the President of the United States last October, the Military Commissions Act, that my Senator Brown, then Representative Brown, shamefully voted for and now regrets, that suspends YOUR Habeas Corpus rights if Mr. Bush declares you an enemy combatant.

      Many Muslim men were arrested after 9/11 in the US with no real probable cause, just because they were Muslims.

      The thug, Jose Padilla, an American citizen, was thrown in a military brig for 3 years without a right to an attorney or trial and became a mental basket case as he was isolated in solidary confinement and probably tortured.

      A Canadian citizen last year was arrested at JFK airport and sent to a torture prison in Syria or somewhere only to be found to be innocent later on.

      Anyone who says this will only happen to bad guys are incredibly naive and have their heads in the sand, maybe BECAUSE the truth of it is too frightening to choose to accept as truth, so we call it wild-eye conspiracy theories and we can rest easy.

      When the end of neo-con power seems certain in 2008, persuant to the EO I referenced and others, even POLITICAL opponents risk arrest and imprisonment.

      •  What's the old saying . . . (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silverbird, kraant, DSPS owl

        "You who forget history are doomed to repeat it"  Something along those lines.

      •  When bloggers are disappeared... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mayan, kraant, drbloodaxe
        then we might believe it.

        I'm waiting for something like:

        1. All internet users have to be licensed (your ISP will enforce it) by either FCC or US Postal Service to allow 'electronic communication.'
        2. for any blog entry the individual's IP address, and his computer's MAC address are stored on the blog's database for 10 years. Same for email, held by ISP.
        2. we get an 'uttering statements against the government, the president, his staff, on going wars' rule/directive, whether on a blog, email, or on Internet radio.  Holding the individual, ISP, and blog responsible. (see 'seizing assets')

        My guess is that #2 is happening already.

        ..etc..

        •  I'm pretty sure (0+ / 0-)

          that we're already being monitored. But they won't shut it off - that'll get us in the streets, and they don't want that. They'll just quietly disappear the ones they deem "dangerous."

          Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

          by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:48:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It has already happened (9+ / 0-)

      While you are right in describing how Bush could not become a supreme dictator, you fail to see that we do not live in a democracy as a result of some of the things you mentioned already happening, albeit in different ways.


      For example, Bush is not the only one backed by corporations.  Pretty much all of the candidates are.  Hillary Clinton would not take on the corporations any more than Bush does, although she would be expected to talk about it.  Since we live in a nation controlled by the corporations, our "free elections" are often little more than picking between two corrupt, corporate-friendly individuals.  Not all Democrats are corrupt (but probably all Republicans are), but most of them are.  That is why Congress fails to listen to what the American people want.  It's not incompetence, it's just that they listen to a different boss.


      So the election next year will occur.  It's just that the person who wins will be hand-selected by the corporations, not the American people.

    •  All you're saying is that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lumpenprole, kyril

      Bush doesn't even need a coup.

    •  it won't be a coronation (0+ / 0-)

      it'll be a state of emergency.  The way that people threw their hands up and hoped to be rescued by the Guard during Katrina - that's how it'll happen.  The troops will be happy to get the situation under control and the people will get the security they want.

      "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

      by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:01:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I posted the Roberts article last Monday (23+ / 0-)

    The common reaction seemed to be that the article shouldn't be read because nameless bloggers had also posted the article on sites that the readers did not approve of.

    There was also a sense of outrage because it was a Republcan who was warning the people of the danger they faced.

    I think the magnitude of what is happening right now just doesn't sink in with a lot of people.

    I think we really are looking at the end of the Republic. A new piece for the take over goes into place every day. The goobs are being pumped up for the next attack, the military is getting into position and today Bush took a huge step in freeing himself up from the pesky, yapping Congress.

    I suspect we'll see some kook shoot up a mall soon and we will then enter into a world war as a result. The police state will follow about a week later.

  •  With Bush snubbing Congress now... (16+ / 0-)

    There's been ongoing dialogue between my father and my brother and I about what it's going to take to get enough Republicans to sign on to impeachment.

    The current Congress has been careful "dotting their i's and crossing their t's", as my brother put it, and doing everything effectively by the book. Calling impeachment at this point 'partisan' simply isn't going to fly.

    If the President is going to ignore (read: defy) the Congress who is acting well within the law, then perhaps Bush actions with this will be enough to finally start changing some minds and make things really start to move.

    These assertions of such broad executive power that essentially makes the case that Congress could pretty much just go home, since nothing trumps the president given the mindset of the Executive Power, is what might be the tipping point.

    Here's to wishful thinking.

    Phillybits - "...quoting a senior defense department official speaking on condition of anonymity..."

    by Stand Strong on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:55:19 AM PDT

    •  Republican senators (8+ / 0-)

      won't sign up for impeachment because they're mostly as involved as Bush is.

      You think no one on the right has made any money from this fiasco?

      Many on the right are as mentally ill and/or criminal as Bush is. Right now, while Congress has some leverage and there's the threat of an election - eventually - they're feeling some heat.

      But if democracy dies and elections are suspended, they'll back on the wagon in no time. In fact I'd expect them to be more than happy to provide a nominal appearance of normality in a one-party way, with all of those pesky Dems removed.

      You'd still get a house and a senate to maintain the illusion. But it would be back to full-time rubber-stamping of policy set by the Deluded One.

      "Be kind" - is that a religion?

      by ThatBritGuy on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:32:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Already had a coup de etat (21+ / 0-)

    You can see it in action. Destruction of government instutions, torture, syping on citizens and all the rest of it. We only know a small bit of what has already been done. The constutional crisis is now getting visible and who knows how it will come out.

    The democrats have to get public opinion behind blocking the take over. But that is hard with the main stream media supporting the president and the war.

  •  Awesome, you diaried it (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pattyp, corvo, Barcelona, kraant, kN3eLb4Z0d, kyril

    Was making sure this was out here.  Direct link to the Thom Hartmann interview, which is MUST HEAR:

    Thom Hartmann interview with Paul Craig Roberts

    Thanks - heading out, PLEASE REC THIS DIARY -- we have to get this news out.  

  •  Lemme get my coffee, first (17+ / 0-)

    I haven't woken up yet.

    I believe that:

    We have three co-equal branches of government.
    My government does not lie to me.
    The White House respects the rule of law.
    We do not torture.
    Our Constitution is strong and safe.
    Bush is keeping all of us safe.
    The economy is strong and our outlook secure.

    .............

    OK! There, I'm awake now. Forget everything I just said.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:08:47 AM PDT

  •  You can't have a dictatorship when (7+ / 0-)

    Bush is going to be out of office in 15 months

    •  Umm...make that "if" (12+ / 0-)

      That is my fear.

      The truth always matters.

      by texasmom on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:23:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  who says he is going to leave office???? (12+ / 0-)

      think about it

      "It's the Constitution, stupid!" - DaveV

      by SillyCow on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:23:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  huh? (19+ / 0-)

      not if, as Paul Craig Roberts, old-time Republican insider from the Reagan era, says that Cheney and Rove will orchestrate a way to stay in power:

      "I don't actually think they're very strong," said Roberts of his words. "I get a lot of flak that they're understated and the situation is worse than I say. ... When Bush exercises this authority [under the new Executive Order] ... there's no check to it. It doesn't have to be ratified by Congress. The people who bear the brunt of these dictatorial police state actions have no recourse to the judiciary. So it really is a form of total, absolute, one-man rule. ... The American people don't really understand the danger that they face."

      Roberts said that because of Bush's unpopularity, the Republicans face a total wipeout in 2008, and this may be why "the Democrats have not brought a halt to Bush's follies or the war, because they expect his unpopular policies to provide them with a landslide victory in next year's election."

      However, Roberts emphasized, "the problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Cheney and Rove and the Republicans are ignorant of these facts, or it assumes that they are content for the Republican Party to be destroyed after Bush has his fling." Roberts believes instead that Cheney and Rove intend to use a renewal of the War on Terror to rally the American people around the Republican Party. "Something's in the works," he said, adding that the Executive Orders need to create a police state are already in place.

      http://rawstory.com/...

      I don't know if I believe that they would do it but you comment indicates that you're not familiar with the argument at hand so...

      •  Never going to happen (0+ / 0-)

        He will leave, if for no other reason than right now in DC NOBODY and I mean NOBODY wants to be the president who leaves Iraq. They all know when we leave there is a good chance AQ will set up shop and launch attachs in Europe and US.

        Besides I beleive we would then see an impeachment

        •  Probably would not see impeachment of the person (0+ / 0-)

          who left Iraq. Your point about AlQuaeda is debatable as well since Iraq will likely be run by Shiite and Kurdish politicians, none of whom are AlQuaeda and in fact are their sworn enemies.

          It also seems as if you are implying that the reason we were in Iraq in the first place was to fight AlQuaeda. There was literally no AlQuaeda there when we entered the country. If there is significant AlQuaeda presence there today then we created it.

          "Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions." U.S.Grant

          by shigeru on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 11:37:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What makes you think he will leae. Martial Law (10+ / 0-)

      will happen on election day and it is done.  The Republican Candidate is irrelevant.  Democratic votes are irrelecant.  Bush will be staying.  

      •  Imagine how pissed rudy and mccain would be!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bwintx

        if Bush said he was staying.

        Actually, I think it it more likely that bush will leave. He hates being president. But I was thinkin this morning that Cheney is up to something. Perhaps he will  change his mind and declare for the presidency himself, or something else nefarious will happen.  I don't know, but I do think that Cheney thinks he is staying in power in January 209.

        My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

        by adigal on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:47:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  way way before election day (0+ / 0-)

        Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

        by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:55:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Umm..... (11+ / 0-)

      another "9/11 attack" real or Bush manufactured.  Martial Law, suspension of elections, etc.

      He has already trashed the "checks and balances" of the constitution by either ignoring the checks or having his own people "check" bush.

      When the rest of the world decides to take care of the bully, I hope I'm not in Columbine.

      by georgeNOTw on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:27:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here is the problem with the 9/11 attack scenario (2+ / 0-)

        Bush has done all of his law-breaking, saying it will keep us safe. If we are attacked again, with bin Laden never captured and 1/2 trillion of our dollars spent in Iraq, I think Bush will be run out of town on a rail by the people. It just won't work this time - 75% of us are on to him.

        And I am as concerned as anyone - I am looking at Canadian immigration websites, seriously. But I don't think this will work.

        My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

        by adigal on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:49:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If there is another attack (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adigal, Captain Nimrod

          people in the street won't rally behind Bush unless they are led there.  They're fed up, as we are, but
          remember -- they haven't been paying attention.

          This is because they are too busy, are put off by the complexity, or are scared enough that life is easier for them if they don't pay attention to things that might make life even more scary.  As a result if and whne something happens that they will need to make sense of  -- they are ready to be led.
           
          Unless there is major pushback the MSM will cowtow to the Bush/Cheney leadership. Based on what we've seen so far, I think the netroots need to be preparing to be ready to act.  

          Remember Katrina? -- we watched when everyone who was supposed to be doing stuff was paralyzed, but on-line -- stuff started to get organized and things began to happen with citizens helping citizens.  Private citizens with the power to do things, began to do them,  days before the systems that were supposed respond  appropriately in such an emergency really got their act in gear.

          If there is another event.  It will be sort of that way again.  There is a leaderless moment (of hours, days, or weeks, depending on the shock factor of the event) when it's not business as usual, and in that moment if citizens reach out and connect to one another -- we the people can seize the initiative and take back the script being written for us by Bush/Cheney & co.  And if we expect to survive with the promise of freedom and opportunity intact we will have to do just that.

          When 9-11 happened, the internet was still a child.  It's now 2007, and Web 2.0 makes many things possible.  It's also important for local citizens networks to be networking and organizing off-line so web and e-mail access are not our only means of communication.

          •  Very good comment. (0+ / 0-)

            I held my breath for a week after 9-11.  There was a wee chance that we might get it right, use diplomacy and leadership while all the world was sympathetic.

            If there's a chance of taking advantage of that "leaderless moment", you're right - we should be preparing, concretely.

            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

            by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:55:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Sure you can.... (14+ / 0-)

      Just because the dictator may be someone different is beside the point.  Lots of countries hold elections and still have one party rule.  How many times was Saddam Hussein elected?

      Republicans have been packing the courts, the FEC and the US attorneys office just to name a few to ensure republican victories in the future.  If Guiliani somehow 'wins' in 2008 and keeps all the powers Bush took for himself, I'm not going to feel any sense of relief.

      That is why it is imperative to get rid of these criminals using legal means while we still can.  Impeach the bastards now while we still have a little bit of the rule of law left.

      The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

      by cometman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:28:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Seems to be this view that a man who has broken (7+ / 0-)

      every law, every precedent, and every part of the Constitution will...

      ...for some reason...

      ...change his stripes just so a Democrat can have ALL the same powers.

      factses! we loves them forever!

      by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:50:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But, but, but.. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChiGirl88, ShaunMcDonnell

      Partisan fear mongering is so much more fun!

      "My chief political consultant will be my conscience." - Theodore C. Sorensen

      by 0wn on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:51:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That is not an accurate statement (0+ / 0-)

      I believe that there will be an election in 2008 and that Bush/Cheney will leave office. However, dictatorships can exist for even brief periods. By you logic neither Stalin nor Hitler were dictators because they eventually left office through death.

      Besides there are many examples throughout history of dictatorships coming to an end through relatively peaceful means. Dictatorships also sometimes have the trappings of elections, such as occurred in Argentina, Venezuela, Iraq, China etc. The real thing that sets dictatorships apart is the authoritarian use of power.

      "Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions." U.S.Grant

      by shigeru on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 11:33:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Paul Craig Roberts (31+ / 0-)

    Not an admirable man.  Absolutely no credibility.  Just call him Mr. Hyperbole:

    Click:

    The Democratic Nazi Party

    by Paul Craig Roberts

    The Democrats are stealing the election by re-voting ballots that have already been recounted two or three times. The ballots are being re-voted by the Democrats conducting the "recounts." Any and every excuse is being used to interpret ballots that were not cast for Gore as votes that voters meant to cast for Gore.

    [snip]

    Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris has been demonized by the Democratic Party’s Propaganda Ministry (the TV networks and CNN). Adolf Hitler best described the tactic that Democrats are using against Harris. Success, Hitler says, comes from unleashing "a veritable barrage of lies and slanders against whatever adversary seems most dangerous, until the nerves of the attacked person break down." This tactic, Hitler says, is most successful against "the bourgeoisie [Republicans], which is neither morally nor mentally equal to such attacks."

    What a gaping asshole.

    Just because he is critical of Bush and the Republicans, etc., etc., doesn't make him a wonderful person.

    "The Democratic Nazi Party" - riiiight.


    Just the basic facts, can you tell me where it hurts?

    by Page van der Linden on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:16:05 AM PDT

    •  No, but neither (5+ / 0-)

      does it lessen what he is saying.

      I've been thinking exactly the same thing.

    •  He doesn't have to be a 'wonderful person' (13+ / 0-)

      He just has to be right about Cheney.  My own 'gut' was already screaming after hearing Santorum's threat.  Wasn't yours?  Don't shoot the messenger -- hell, IGNORE the messenger, but listen to the message!!  Read the Executive Orders, and see the web they've already woven.  Its all right there.  He's just pointing, adding his conservative voice to the rest.  If it was a liberal saying this, you'd agree -- but the Fox viewers would all scream 'liberal conspiracy theory!'

      Read about the rise of the Third Reich.  Read  Machiavelli.  Listen to the liberals saying the same thing - listen to whoever you like.  Study Cheney and tell me you think he plans to just quietly step down in a year, with the GOP in ruins...  that is so illogical it doesn't even bear discussion.  

      •  I live in Europe (22+ / 0-)

        Please do not imply that I don't "get it" because I don't know much about Nazis.

        I live in a formerly occupied country.  People don't go around talking about how so-and-so is a Nazi, blah blah blah, because it's highly offensive to those folks who remember the occupation.

        So I'm walking away from this.  I'll go take a walk.  After all, the Ann Frank house is only 5 minutes away.  It's a good place to get a dose of reality.


        Just the basic facts, can you tell me where it hurts?

        by Page van der Linden on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:25:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anne (typo) (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caldonia, DSPS owl, blueness


          Just the basic facts, can you tell me where it hurts?

          by Page van der Linden on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:26:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do you have room on your couch? (7+ / 0-)

          People are leaving this country... over this!  That at least will sound familiar.  

          I have spent my entire life studying history, so I know what happened over there during WWII just as you do, and unless you were alive and remember the bombs yourself, then BOTH OF US are too young to remember the blitz.  

          We both have history to teach us.  The question is whether we will learn from it or ignore it.  You are over there, and I am over here looking into its teeth.  Remember that.  You are over there... we are the ones who will be rounded up if this is true.

          •  And they are already building.... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, Barcelona, kraant

            the detention centers here.  Halliburton has the contract.

            The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

            by cometman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:31:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  We don't need you here (8+ / 0-)

            We don't need people who don't have any perspective on history and would offend those who remember the hell and horror of the occupation.

            So please, move anywhere but here, thanks.


            Just the basic facts, can you tell me where it hurts?

            by Page van der Linden on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:32:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Remember, our grandfathers showed up (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WisVoter, corvo, Annalize5, viscerality, kraant

              I'll be sure to remember that you won't return that favor should we need a hand ourselves.

              I have studied history all of my life.  You don't know me.  

            •  Look - I don't want to fight with you (14+ / 0-)

              I HAVE studied history since I was very little.  I did a report on the Holocaust in third grade.  I didn't sleep for weeks.  I cried and cried.  I have family members who fought on both sides of the war.  I have heard their first hand stories.  I had a teacher in high school who was at Pearl Harbor.  I have heard all of his stories.

              I have been to the Holocaust museum, have met survivors... and I spent years reading about the rise of Hitler, trying to grasp how on EARTH that could have happened.  

              I started noticing things... in this administration early on.  I stayed quiet, figured I was over-reacting.  But didn't we ALL.  Then finally people started speaking out, and I realized I wasn't alone.  

              Now people are practically shouting warning, and my own intuition is screaming.  What would you have us do?  We are in no way dismissing what you went through -- we are simply trying to avoid it. For the good of our country and the good of the world.  

              That is all.  I don't think anyone here wants to be RIGHT about this.  We want to be awake, wary, vigilant.  That is all.  How it all turns out... I guess we'll all find out soon enough.  I'm praying every day that this works out OK.  I'd much rather spend my time working on Climate Change.  Because that for sure is barreling down on us.  But this... this is getting scary.  This is very new for us, in this country.

              Peace.

            •  I don't know who you are talking to... (18+ / 0-)

              over there in Europe, but my wife is currently raising funds for a holocaust museum here in the state of Maine.  She interviewed a holocaust survivor the other day who said that in his opinion, the US looks a hell of a lot like Germany in the 1930's.  He should know-he was there.  And he has been wondering when the rest of us are going to wake the hell up.

              The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

              by cometman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:17:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Now that's just plain mean... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, kraant

              "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

              by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:31:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  P.P. Many years ago I worked with a Dutch (4+ / 0-)

              woman whose large family endured the occupation.

              The hardships were very real-and they weren't Jewish and in danger of deportation to the camps!

              I've had acquaintanceship with at least a dozen individuals who survived the Holocaust-and had the indelible blue numbers on their wrists to daily remind them of that horror!

              An amateur historian, I think it's all summed up in the quote about the failure to learn from history...

              Aloha .. .. ..

            •  So, why did you move to Holland after 2004? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant, kyril

              You used to contribute to dKos from the United States.  For some reason you found the Netherlands more congenial.  Why not carry out your family reunification on this side of the pond?  

              For the record, I don't think that we are in a dictatorship yet, and to say so is an insult to people who have actually lived through dictatorships.  If we get a dictatorship, there's no guarantee that the horrific repression in Germany would be repeated.  A state like Mussolini's Italy or the PRI's Mexico would probably suit the corporatists' purposes better.

              I'm just saying that somebody who left the country after the 2004 vote is not in a position to tell Americans who decided to stay not to be concerned.  

              Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

              by Yamaneko2 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:17:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Your statements remind me... (6+ / 0-)

              Your statements, and those of "GOTV" (upthread, with family who lived under Mussolini), remind me of the arguments some homophobic blacks make when talking about civil rights.  --I'm not going off-topic, hear me out for a few paragraphs--

              Some homophobic blacks say: you (gays) aren't discriminated against because you never had to use separate water fountains, were never slaves, were not segregated, nor redlined out of living in certain neighborhoods.

              Of course these things don't happen to gays, because the kind of discrimination gays face is different. It doesn't look just like the discrimination that blacks faced (and continue to) today. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it's just different in character.

              Likewise, dictatorship in the USA will not look like that in Germany nor Italy before WW2. A lot of this is due to the fact that we live in a completely different era. For example, instead of neighbors informing on us, technology does it. If you're looking for the gas chambers, bold racial purity programs and the goose-step, you're not gonna find them.

              And there is a "hell and horror of an occupation" going on right nowon our behalf, and we offend Iraqi citizens by not recognizing that. The main difference is that the occupation is not in a neighboring country this time, and the people there don't look like you and me. And we only want to control all their (oil) resources and put our military there, not completely annex them like Germany->Poland.

              feduphoosier said in his post "Read about the Third Reich," not "The US is just about to be exactly like Nazi Germany." Get a grip. Do you think that the example of the rise of Nazi Germany holds absolutely no lessons for us today?

        •  Out of curiosity, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, viscerality, kraant

          how do you remember the occupation?

          The last I saw, you're a wee bit young to remember it.

          •  *crickets* (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

            by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:40:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Reluctant to defend PP's (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            comments thus far!

            However, I've lived in Norway for many years and we do, all of us, even children, "remember" the occupation.  It's unavoidable, it's part of the culture.  Where one in the USA speaks of WWII, here it's known as "The Occupation."

            It scares me to think of how Iraqis will remember their occupation for generations.  The occupation here was relatively mild and Norwegians couldn't solve it, just try to cooperate with England as much as possible.  Yet, sixty-some years later, we "remember" iteven though there are few left who get jumpy hearing German spoken by a male voice.

            It's so much worse in Iraq and they have no potential saviors on the outside.  They will remember The Occupation for much more than 100 years, I'm sure.

            Yes, I "remember" the occupation, and I reckon PP does too in the same way.

            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

            by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:28:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Considering she was raised in (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant

              either Arizona or New Mexico, I find it difficult to believe she was 'raised' with it, in addition to being too young to have lived it.

              I agree with you on the Iraqis.  God help them.

            •  The occupation of America (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant

              you never had to use separate water fountains

              Been there, done that, even shortly after desegragation. I was in grade school.  I couldn't figure it out. We all played on the same playground. The black kids seemed to understand it a lot more than I did. They didn't fight it. now I understand that they grew up with slavery sometimes being only one generation away and that some of their grandparents or great grandparents could give them first-hand accounts.

              Yet, sixty-some years later, we "remember" iteven though there are few left who get jumpy hearing German spoken by a male voice.

              Living in Germany, I have no trouble speaking German. I know, I know, it is Germany, after all.  But, I have studied German culture (have an MA in German/German translation)and know that the process of denazification of the German language has been taking a long time  

              If you want a good comparison, think of all the western movies you saw when you were a kid, or, in my case with the water fountains. You could even talk to some  Native Americans and how they feel about being a "conquered" people. Yet many Americans aren't aware of how much language has to do with freedom. As long as we are forced to take sides though language (you are either for us or against us) their will IMO, be war and fascism.

              I have read where a lot of people who went through WWII have sworn they would never speak German again. When I was just in Denmark on vacation, the resorts all spoke perfect German to the Germans. When I visited Copenhagen, however, The Danes would not answer to my German, they would only speak to me in English. I know that English is becoming the International language, but they wouldn't speak German to me at all.

        •  It's not 'Nazi' but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          It's still tyranny, dictatorship, rule by decree.

        •  I dunno why people insist that if somebody (3+ / 0-)

          doesn't live up to Hitler, it's not really a big deal and there's nothing to be learned by drawing parallels.  Especially given that Hitler went out of his way to write a playbook for corrupting liberal governments in order to gain total power.

          "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

          by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:17:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Really old stuff.... (9+ / 0-)

      to read that and follow his progressions over the years is to watch someone become awakened.

      PCR was clearly in the conservative camp at one time as a Regan Republican and did not have very good opinions of the democrats, but has slowly come around to a completely different view.

      One of the most interesting things I've studied over these last few years is this awakening by conservatives/republicans to the true danger that is George Bush. I debate many conservatives on many things and one of my go to winning plays is to grab something from a conservative and use it as part of my argument, and PCR has steadily been a good source for rebuttal.

      There are a lot of conservatives that have turned against Bush and the republicans as having been traitorous to the cause and in my view we should use that to our benefit whenever possible especially when their views cross paths with ours.

      While we might not agree with the "Democratic Nazi Party" statement, most of us would agree with a hell of a lot of what PCR says about Bush and the Republicans, and peoples views change, I myself once considered myself republican.

      PCR is just sounding alarm bells, personally I think that that's a good thing given all that we know this administration is capable of...

      What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

      by laughingriver on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:50:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Same As It Ever Was

      I don't guys like it when Bob Barr, Richard Viguerie, Pat Buchanan telling me what I can see with my own eyes.

      But that doesn't mean I ignore what I see with my own eyes.

    •  He came around (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl

      sometime between then and 2005.

      End-Timers and Neo-Cons, The End of Conservatives

      Conservatives are taking out their Vietnam frustrations on Iraqis. Karl Rove is wrapping Bush in the protective cloak of war leader. The military-industrial complex is drooling over the profits of war. And neoconservatives are laying the groundwork for Israeli territorial expansion.

      But in recent years I have puzzled over the precise location of the "liberal media."

      Not so long ago I would have identified the liberal media as the New York Times and Washington Post, CNN and the three TV networks, and National Public Radio. But both the Times and the Post fell for the Bush administration's lies about WMD and supported the US invasion of Iraq. On balance CNN, the networks, and NPR have not made an issue of the Bush administration's changing explanations for the invasion.

      In the ranks of the new conservatives, however, I see and experience much hate.

      The Iraqi War is serving as a great catharsis for multiple conservative frustrations: job loss, drugs, crime, homosexuals, pornography, female promiscuity, abortion, restrictions on prayer in public places, Darwinism and attacks on religion. Liberals are the cause. Liberals are against America. Anyone against the war is against America and is a liberal. "You are with us or against us."

      This is the mindset of delusion, and delusion permits no facts or analysis. Blind emotion rules. Americans are right and everyone else is wrong. End of the debate.

      Today it is liberals, not conservatives, who endeavor to defend civil liberties from the state.

      He even picked up on the 2004 election fraud:

      Just How Dumb Do They Think We Are?

      Political money scandals and evidence of Republican vote fraud in the 2004 presidential election threaten to undermine confidence in American democracy, which President Bush is committed to export by force of arms to the world.

      PCR is no friend of ours, but he's been right an awful lot lately.

      Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

      by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:19:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just as I wouldn't put too much credence (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skidrow, blueness

      in a lecture on harmonious race relations from Strom Thurmond, even though he obviously got along with at least one black person.

      There's one way to find out if a man is honest - ask him. If he says, "Yes," you know he is a crook. ~Groucho Marx

      by Busted Flat in Baton Rouge on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:13:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharif, blueness

      So he's basically Paul "I see Nazis" Roberts.

    •  PCR wrote that in November 2000. (0+ / 0-)

      A great many people have had their eyes opened since then.  Perhaps he is one of them?

      The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

      by DSPS owl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:02:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You are absolutely right. (5+ / 0-)

    And we're all on lists somewhere in Cheney's office. With martial law in effect, BushCo can go house to house, only to the "right" houses that have subversives like us. We'll get hauled away and no one will be able to do anything.

    We have got to redouble our efforts and fire on all cylinders. We must do more, especially talking to friends and family and get them up to speed.

    Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

    by bejammin075 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:24:15 AM PDT

  •  Congress apparently is satisfied with... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mary4, kraant, blue vertigo

    ...a dictatorship.  Maybe we'll just have to sweat it out until 2009.

    •  Bush is not waiting that long (11+ / 0-)

      if an election is in gear and the people expect and outcome, any outcome, to be honored, he'd be out on a rail and into the Potomac in a heartbeat.

      No, if he and his act they will act very very soon, or not at all.

      My guess is next month, perhaps September.

      factses! we loves them forever!

      by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:39:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What exactly do you think he'd do? (nt) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, MichiganGirl
        •  I suspect our little convention is at risk (6+ / 0-)

          All the Dem leaders and leaders-to-be in one spot, the heart of the online intelligentsia?

          I'd wipe it out without batting an eye if I were him.

          factses! we loves them forever!

          by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:45:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  regardless I will be there (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dave925, WisVoter, rickeagle, Mz Kleen, kraant

            factses! we loves them forever!

            by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:46:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  He has no credibility left to pull off anything.. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cskendrick, PaulVA, kraant, gatorcog

            ...of the kind.

            Anyway, if he suspended habeas corpus, for example, it really wouldn't take very long for the loved ones of the prisoner to be up in arms.  Everyone in uniform would become the enemy, and a target.

            We'd be looking at anarchy; certainly not a dictatorship.  I mean, who would Bush get to follow him?  The average soldier who has to whisk away a friend, relative, loved one  or innocent family in the dead of night -- how much of that will he put up with?  Given the context/freedoms and rights in this country, he'd have to be at least partially insane.

            •  I was not thinking an arrest (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dave925, WisVoter, kraant, blue vertigo, kyril

              I think this administration and its many evil friends are exactly that unscrupulous.

              I sure hope we have good security, and it's ours.

              factses! we loves them forever!

              by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:56:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  dov, I've liked your comments, (6+ / 0-)

              but this is silly.  For one thing, Bush has Congressional approval (Military Commissions Act, I believe) to station the National Guard of a given state in any other state he wishes.  And even if left in their own states . . . big deal.  Didn't stop Kent State.  

              Involve soldiers, who aren't put in detachments by geographical origin any more, within the United States, and they won't be arresting friends--odds are millions to one against that.  They'd be arresting "traitors" on order--and the one thing they're taught above all else is to obey orders.

              Once again: Nobody with a gun would oppose martial law.  Nobody.

              •  I have a gun (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dave925

                and I would oppose martial law. I'm fairly sure there are others. There have even been people posting here that they're arming themselves for the specific purpose of defending against martial law.

                The active duty military though As a group? That's a very faint hope.

                Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

                by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:23:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No offense, but statistically (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dave925, lisastar, kyril

                  you and those like you are nobody.

                  This much said, it's always more admirable to go down with a fight than without one, should it come to that.

                  •  And take some wingnuts along (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    glitterscale, kraant, blue vertigo, kyril

                    We forget at our peril the legions of brainwashed true believers just dying to be brownshirts.

                    Do you recall how they were almost mobilized during the theft of 2000? Imagine if they were told to arm themselves and report to the local constabulary for deputization as Heimlat Security auxiliaries.

                    There'd be hundreds of thousands of the freaks, armed and set loose on people like us. And that's what I'd do if I were the bullgoose looney in charge.

                    There is a reason for the eliminationist rhetoric on hate radio, y'know.

                    You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. -Aldous Huxley

                    by Dave925 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:43:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed; what you indicate he may pull off. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril

                For a little while.

                We're not talking Kent State.  We're talking United States.

                And if the military arrested a loved one of MINE w/o habeas corpus under martial law, I'm not sure why you'd think I'd quietly sit still for that.  First off, everyone I knew or could reach would immediately know.  Second, to the extent I could, I'd physically try and correct the situation.  

                •  and get disappeared yourself (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kyril

                  I don't mind going to work but that eight hour wait to go home sucks!

                  by Audri on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:48:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, I don't think you'd (0+ / 0-)

                  quietly sit by.  I just don't think that in the case of open or even covert insurrection, our side has the firepower or numbers to offer effective resistance.

                  One reason (among others) that I don't support open or covert insurrection.

                •  We are not talking Kent State. Correct. (0+ / 0-)

                  That was one incident.  Suppressing protest and dissent by military means requires the soldiers to be willing to fire on American citizens over and over, and round up American citizens and haul them off to jail, knowing they are destroying the soul of what America has been and has stood for.

                  THe US miiltary is not prepared to do that, especially for a President the command structure already profoundly distrusts and feels betrayed by.

                  Not only would there be citizens resisting; there would be soldiers resisting. Not only would there be soldiers resisting; there would be generals to lead them. Some of our best.

                  I'm not saying that it couldn't happen here, or that it wouldn't be bloody and horrific if it came to that, but let's not assume that "our side" has so little "firepower" that all we could do would be make a gesture of defiance and die.

                  But let's focus on protecting our liberties without coming to the point of Americans shootng at each other, shall we?

          •  Oh G_d, don't say that. (3+ / 0-)

            I have been having some thoughts about that myself.

          •  I think that's an awful thing to say, and I'm not (2+ / 0-)

            kidding. What do you gain by saying that?

            I'm a liberal, a progressive, and could imagine all sorts of scenarios if I were into writing sci-fi. But I'm not. I thought we dealt with reality here not conspiracy invention of future horrors.

            I can't believe this diary and the comments are at kos.

            ...if you have 100% agreement down at the Gunshop on anything you know the wave must be coming. -Kenevan McConnon

            by Gorette on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:16:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There seems to be this view (16+ / 0-)

              that the Bushies are not that ruthless.

              the Iraqis would beg to differ.

              factses! we loves them forever!

              by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:25:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Listen People cskendrick speaks truth (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blue vertigo

                If they have hired Sunni Death Squads - in our name - to win this war - what won't they do.

                You know, the same people that drill holes through  heads are our new allies

                Are you proud of what you are paying for?

                Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

                by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:59:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I would think (0+ / 0-)

                  the humiliating house-to-house patrols in Iraq would be chilling enough.  If they did that stateside, they'd have plenty of intelligence to use.

                  "Cause in my empire life is sweet, Just ask any bum you meet. You may say I ain't free, It don't worry me." Nashville

                  by lumpenprole on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:23:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  well (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cskendrick, Dave925, kraant, kyril

              don't embrace it but don't ignore it either.  CS has quite a lot of experience and education in Foreign Affairs.

              I am sorry if it is a scary scenario, it is scary

              Sapere Aude! [dare to know] "Have courage to use your own understanding!"--that is the motto of enlightenment. - I. Kant

              by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:42:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Allende, Chile (5+ / 0-)

                This all has a very unsettling feel to it.

                And perhaps El Salvador is even more apropos.

                factses! we loves them forever!

                by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:24:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heck (4+ / 0-)

                  Kissinger the criminal authored the overthrow of Allende. He visits the Re-Animator often you know.

                  The thugs present at that past depredation (and others) are in power, now. Our government has been pulling this shit around the world for 60 years. Whatever made Americans think they wouldn't use the same techniques, here?

                  They will you know. They have always intended to.

                  You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. -Aldous Huxley

                  by Dave925 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:37:31 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I don't know if you remember (0+ / 0-)

                  but one of our team sergeants in my company was the team sergeant of the team that got stuck in the San Salvador hotel in '89 or '90, I can't remember the year.  In any case it was a standoff of the guerrillas at the elevator and the operators in the hallway using the doorway as cover.  Of course, they all said in macho prima donna bravado that they were pissed only because the FMLN took control the hotel bar and swimming pool (thereby fucking-up the max-per diem thing).

                  The team sergeant, Dean Read, later became out company sergeants major.

                  It is so chilling and really so sad if one is familiar with American writings of the late 1700's, what is happening.  I can't help feeling that I, unwittingly, played my part in it as well.

                  Sapere Aude! [dare to know] "Have courage to use your own understanding!"--that is the motto of enlightenment. - I. Kant

                  by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:55:34 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Don't embrace it but don't ignore it. (0+ / 0-)

                Wise attitude, Jeffersonian Democrat.  We need to be aware of worse case scenarios, but not be convinced they are upon us.  

                We need to be serious about outreach, about communicating to more Americans the seriousness of what Cheney/Bush are up to.  And we need to keep supporting & pushing those in Congress who are willing to challenge the administration and defend the Constitution by all means from inherent contempt to impeachment.

                In other words, get on with our business, though with an increased sense of urgency.

            •  No one believed Bush would be this bad either (12+ / 0-)

              There is a tendency to want to diminish the perception of threats because it discomforts us.

              I actually think Bush wouldn't mind getting out of the presidency. It's Cheney and the neocons who scare me.

              The neocons know this is their last chance for a while. They may not go easily.

              If we start talking about this now we have a better chance to stop it if does come up.

              •  I believed it... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cskendrick, Dave925, kraant, kyril

                I told my republican parents and brother that he was plain evil incarnate and they laughed.

                "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

                by dotdot on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:16:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  truer words.... (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dave925, kraant, blue vertigo, LucyMO, livy

                It's Cheney and the neocons who scare me.

                The neocons know this is their last chance for a while. They may not go easily.

                You don't pay any attention to what your parents tell you, but you watch the way they live their lives...Tom Waits

                by lisastar on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:33:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I believed and so did my Hungarian born husband (6+ / 0-)

                who said that the goons sent by Delay to stop counting the votes in Florida were so much like the fascist brown shirts he had seen in central Europe in the 30's. We have been activists ever since. writing lte's working for progressive candidates etc etc.
                 btw, my husband's father read Mein Kampf, believed what he read and got his upper middle class Jewish parents out of Budapest in the early 30's and the rest of his family out as soon as he could. As a result of his foresight, his entire family survived. And many of their wealthy confident friends did not.  He also had a boat hidden on the Danube just in case.
                  But then his family had only been in Hungary for 5 generations, not half as long as anti-semitism had been alive in Europe.
                 

                You don't get to keep democracy unless you fight for it.

                by artebella on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:37:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Gore believed BushCo would be "honorable' in 2001 (3+ / 0-)

                There was some illusions on the part of some Democrats that these creatures of the neo con far right were after all, fellow Americans, and they wouldn't lie the country into war, treacherously take away the Bill of Rights,and imprison Americans without trial or charges...

               If he had a crystal ball to see into 2004-2007 would he have been so generous as to turn over America to the despots?

               Who sent purified Anthrax to legislators and media people who happened to be democrats?

               Cast away your illusions.  Sending soldiers on four  tours or seven tours or until they are crippled or die is not a patriotic or humanitarian mission.

               We have a civil war coming in this country if despotism cannot be removed peacefully. We didn't ask for it, it has been forced on us.

              America has been stolen, your citizenship is a hollow fraud, and you have no power. What will YOU do to reverse these hurts, crimes, outrages?

              by Pete Rock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:23:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Project much? (0+ / 0-)

            I'd wipe it out without batting an eye if I were him.

            There's one way to find out if a man is honest - ask him. If he says, "Yes," you know he is a crook. ~Groucho Marx

            by Busted Flat in Baton Rouge on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:22:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  dkos goin off the deep end.. (21+ / 0-)

    There only seem to be a handful of us who rationally read the EO, examined the underlying statutes, and realized that it's really not an extraordinary EO. These things have been going on for 30 years.

    I'm also not sure why a former Reagan official is suddenly deified just because he spoke out against Bush.

    •  No one is deifying anyone (18+ / 0-)

      I have been worried about this myself.  Santorum's words about an impending disaster here that will suddenly make us all embrace the war... set off screaming sirens in my head.  

      I am not a conspiracy theorist, I just study history.  And I've spent my life programming computers, so I have a pretty good grasp of logic.  No one could believe Hitler did the things he did -- they were unthinkable. But they happened.  I'd love to be wrong, and maybe if enough of us are prepared and watching them, we will be wrong because they will not dare....

      Better to be wrong than sorry.  I'd much rather you all laugh at us when another president takes office, than have this all come true.  And from watching Cheney, it could easily come true.  Easily.  Its all happened before, over and over, throughout history.  What makes us think it can't happen here -- when we have done NOTHING to protect against it? Our Constitution is in shreds!  What will stop them?  Only us... and a whole lot of pressure on Congress.

      •  Yes...I've re-read many of Cheney's remarks... (7+ / 0-)

        ...he's made over the past several years.  That fucker's really insane.

      •  Former Programmer Here and to My Eye (11+ / 0-)

        the political-activist types don't put enough attention on the way these structures and institutions actually function.

        Looking at the country functionally, the Republicans would have gotten almost as far as where they are now if they'd played purely by the rules. The economy, information systems, cultural institutions all work much more according to their expectations than to ours.

        When morons triumph there have to be reasons. One or a few, sure corruption is the logical place to look. But everywhere? At all levels?

        We've not shown enough skepticism about system design.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:47:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting thought... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          The economy, information systems, cultural institutions all work much more according to their expectations than to ours.

          Don't agree, could agree if the republicans had not built everything they are on misinformation and disinformation, however to the extent that both of those play into the actions of the people would certainly make a discussion about that worthy.

          Meaning that the republicans know that misinformation and disinformation work and they just do it without qualms, the dems do it to an extent, but nowhere near what the republicans do...

          What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

          by laughingriver on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:57:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  History repeating itself (3+ / 0-)

        I once talked with my father about the Nazis. He wondered how such a cultured, civilized people could end up in such a disaster.

        Of course, it all happened gradually. Then there were catalysts like the Reichstag fire, blamed on the communists. Somehow the media went on to support the new ruler and regime with increasingly dictatorial powers. Few intellectuals spoke out: many went along with the Nazis, some with enthusiasm. People who stopped to think and saw the worst coming or suspected there was more to the Reichstag fire than the media reported were largely dismissed and ridiculed, some as "conspiracy theorists". All that and more allowed the unthinkable to happen. And the similarities to the present situation in the USA are all too easy to see. The USA is a democratic and civilized nation. It couldn't happen here, could it?

        Paul Craig Roberts warns us about the regime carrying out the "next 9/11", and he is inclined to think that the "earlier 9/11" was already a false-flag operation. I have studied these issues for several years now. I am a sane individual, quite capable of rational thinking. I can weigh evidence and draw reasonable conclusions in my daily activities, and I don't think this ability is diminished when I think about issues somewhat farther removed from the immediate "here and now". No amount of namecalling or ridicule is going to make me drop critical thinking when it comes to the official explanations of 9/11. As Roberts points out, even highly respected, well-known individuals have been summarily dismissed and ridiculed because of their non-mainstream views of 9/11.

        My view is that we have already been fooled once, and this realization should help us avoid being fooled again.

        History, of course, teaches us (or those of us who read history, and not only from school books) that people have been fooled over and over again to support wars based on contrived pretexts, false flag operations and distorted "facts".

    •  I agree... (17+ / 0-)

      with you politburo.

      Can we say that what has been happening is totally wrong and unconstitutional? Absolutely.

      Does that somehow mean that we'll be facing "tanks in the streets" soon with a full on dictatorship enforced by a mondern day SS, just after elections have been banned?  That is completely absurd.  

      And for everyone claiming that removing Bush from office is the only answer...just how will we do that if all these machinations and plans are already in place?  Won't he just stop us with his blackwater secret police that he will somehow mobilize against all odds?  

      I'm going to file this where it belongs:

      The 2006 elections will be stolen: did not happen.

      The 2006 elections will be prevented thru a staged terrorist attack: did not happen.

      Bush and Cheney will attack Iran to remove all dissent and proceed with all their previous plans (including stopping the aforementioned elections): did not happen.  

      Bush will refuse to leave office, install a dictatorship and rule the entire world with an iron first: will not happen.

      Do I think we should ignore it and pretend that the administrations actions are legal?  No, of course not, but this sky is falling doomsday rhetoric isn't helping either.

      We will and should continue to press for what is right.  

      The republicans are short sighted.  They aren't afraid of this power grab one day benefitting the democrats because they don't look that far into the future (see all the powers they gave themselves in congress assuming that "permenant republican majority").  Didn't work out so well did it?  

      Their efforts are doomed to fail and they will fail.  They will reach too far and be destroyed, or be swept out of office. Either one of those options will be driven by the will of the people, not a fantasy dictatorship.
       

      You snooze you lose, well I have snost and lost, I'm pushing thru, I'll disregard the cost...

      by Sean in Motion on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:45:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You've Made Two Errors: (27+ / 0-)

        Some of the 2006 elections were stolen, certainly several in FL and we don't know how many others because of course you can't open an investigation before there's conviction-level absolute proof.

        There was a great deal of fraud in Webb's race but we squeaked by. But for one blogging videographer we'd only have taken the House.

        Second, the warnings about invasion of Iran have never originated with bloggers and activists. They come from highly placed sources like weapons inspectors, ex military, ex intelligence and such.

        They're still coming and hardware is still flowing toward that part of the world.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:51:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll give you a rec (6+ / 0-)

          and thanks for your reply.

          but my ultimate point is, plan or no plan, the GOP was foiled by the will of the people despite whatever fraud may have existed in those elections.

          Also that even discounting those examples I gave, there is no doubt that there was a huge deal of hyperbole about our imminent doom and it did not come to pass.

          I'm not advocating doing nothing.  I'm not saying let's dismiss all ideas out of hand because we should all live under Sean in Motion's idea/definition of rationality.  I'm just calling for reason and not the end is nigh hyperbole.

          You snooze you lose, well I have snost and lost, I'm pushing thru, I'll disregard the cost...

          by Sean in Motion on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:00:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Here's To This Atheist PRAYING (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, Sean in Motion

        You are right!!!

      •  In all ways but one you are correct (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silverbird, kraant, rsie

        All we need is another "9/11" to make your assurances moot.  Remember General Franks' comment that another 9/11-type attack endangers the Constitution?  Even though 9/11 was in NO WAY a threat to the actual function and existence of this country, the response was overblown and ANOTHER 9/11 could EASILY get overblown to the point of our government, with the acquiescence of a lot of the public, terminating our Constitution "for our own good and to protect freedom".

        I DO fear false flag ops or a real attack (blown out of proportion...the loss of an ENTIRE CITY - NOLA - sure didn't call for suspension of the Constitution but somehow a few buildings flattened by the "wrong element" DOES endanger our very existence).  Either WILL be used by Rovians/Cheneyites to grab absolute power.  To the Rovians, it is just another thing to take political advantage of.  For Cheneyites, it s something to use to gain "real" power.

        If given the opportunity, the WILL use such an incident.

        Reichstag fire is to Hitler as 9/11 is to Bush

        by praedor on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:56:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That they would exploit (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Busted Flat in Baton Rouge

          a tragedy for political gain (however great or small) has been proven a thousand times over, no disagreement from me.

          But that they would conspire to cause such a tragedy or that they know one is coming and refuse to stop it is what I believe to be beyond the pale hyperbole, which seeps into some of the tone of this diary and others from 2006.  

          Also, everyone assumes that this would automatically benefit republicans were we to be attacked again.

          But why?  It would only go to show that the war has been useless, and that thousands of American's died to prevent....nothing!  It would only crystallize the ultimate failure of Bush and his ilk.  

          So, in my opinion (for whatever tiny amount it is worth) in the end the kind of dictatorship described would still be stopped by the people.

          You snooze you lose, well I have snost and lost, I'm pushing thru, I'll disregard the cost...

          by Sean in Motion on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:43:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I am Not an Expert on Executive Orders (10+ / 0-)

      and I believe you that there have been Executive Orders signed for many years before Bush that might sound ominous if read with an ignorant viewpoint of the Constitutional checks and balances in this country.

      But what makes Bush's EO's more ominous is his RECORD of already arressting hundreds of innocents and sending them to prison without trial or attorneys, his RECORD of signing statements that basically say FUCK YOU Congress, his RECORD of declaring executive priviledge in Congressional inquiriess, his RECORD of illegal wiretapping....

      Now, read these EO's in THAT context and tell me you will sleep soundly tonight.

      If so, give me what you are taking, I need it!

    •  Nobody is going off the deep end.... (15+ / 0-)

      from just this latest revelation of the executive order.  But if you put that together with some other orders, and the patriot act, the orders for detention centers to be built, threats to presidential candidates etc, some of us are starting to see a pattern here.  

      The machinery of fascism is being put into place.  We'd like to see it stopped before someone decides to turn the machine on.  

      The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

      by cometman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:22:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you. (7+ / 0-)

      I'm one of those people who read the EO through the eyes of a lawyer and understand its context.  You were kind enough to rec my comment yesterday doing so, but some of it bears repeating here.

      First, the "Iraq insurgency" EO is strikingly similar to the post-9/11 EO.  Same elements: no prior notice required, application to US citizens, confiscation of property.  Redress through the courts (though after the fact) by virtue of the Administrative Procedures Act (a fact that Craig Roberts missed).

      Since the time of the post-9/11 EO (and actually, since the mid-1990s, because "the list" actually began during the Clinton administration), the list has grown to more than 10,000 people and organizations.  Now take a look at the list.  There's a lot of bad people and groups on it.  But I don't see anyone with the last name of "Smith."  Is the possibility for abuse there?  Yes. But the career civil servants in the Treasury Department are not likely to start rounding up and disappearing political dissidents.  They certainly haven't yet.

      So many things countenance against a civil war or imposition of a dictatorship.  First, who's on the other side, other than Blackwater and a cadre of chickenhawks?  Ever receive a nasty, graphic e-mail from a wingnut?  I have.  Deep down, every one of them has been a coward.  Brave enough when cloaked in anonymity and armed with a keyboard, but in real fighting? Especially when fighting against something the vast majority of people passionately hold so dear--the U.S. Constitution?  I ask again--in this civil war, who's doing the fighting on the other side?

      Second, federalism.  The vast majority of law enforcement is controlled by the states, not the feds.  Do you think for a minute that your local police, state troopers, and sheriffs are going to submit to a dictatorship imposed by a madman?  Are the mayors and the governors to whom they answer going to submit?  We had a similar situation 150 years ago.  But even that precedent fails because the "union" side in this case is hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed.

      Third, the endgame.  State republican parties--even in the reddest states--are not going to yield to a cabal that will exterminate them politically.  Once the dictatorship is declared, what then?  Considering the forces aligned against such a coup--a well-armed militia, state and local law enforcement, state Republican operations, financial and industrial might concentrated in the blue states--it is doomed from the start.

      Don't forget--this is the same bunch of boobs that "planned" the post-Saddam occupation of Iraq.  That clusterf*ck is nothing compared to what would happen here shortly after "The United States of Amerika" is declared.  And poppy Bush would finally have to bend junior over his knee and give him the spanking he so richly deserves.

      Really, people...  

    •  Could you point me to an EO (0+ / 0-)

      that says basically the same as this one or has the same implications?

      It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress. Mark Twain

      by rsie on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:22:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  read this (0+ / 0-)

      Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

      by notimportant on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:00:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sherrod Brown (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Termite, viscerality, kraant

    I write my Congress people (the few possibly sympathetic, like Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio) and realize the Senator himself will never read my letter.

    Until Brown indicates his willingness to repeal the Military Commissions Act, which he was one of half a dozen Democrats to cave on, we should find another shoulder to cry on. He's one of the good guys in many respects, but his sympathies on issues like this have too often been on the wrong damn side.

  •  the Dems need to hire (is that the correct word?) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    praedor, lotlizard, kraant

    Bruce Fein to draw up articles of impeachment --

    Mr Fein wrote "Restrain this White House" before the Nov 06 election... and we all saw him on Bill Moyers last week...

  •  I was in the 5% who still distrusted Bush (21+ / 0-)

    after 9/11. I wretched at his big speech the week after. I am on guard now too.

  •  WARNING: Real Hyperbole is Here! (30+ / 0-)

    This EO has been blogged several times in the last three days, and each diary is more hyperbolic than the last.  While I am not saying there is nothing to be concerned about here.  These exaggerated calls of dictatorship do nothing but cause alarm where reason is necessary.

    Sorry, but not every action by this administration will bring about the immediate end of the Republic.  

    Can we get a grip, and do something sane instead of pulling out our hair as we stroke out?

    •  Warning people... is a waste of time? (13+ / 0-)

      Kind of like impeachment I guess.  I guess I'll go to a movie.  Or turn on Fox.  Surely the TV will tell me the truth.  Yeah, I'm swimming in truth, why would I trust my instincts, history, or basically anyone who might want to warn me that all is not well -- that we are not safe?  

      Thom Hartmann is a raving conspiracy theorist.  So is Moyers. I can't believe I listen to these guys.  Back to sleep with me, and fast.  

    •  Yes, this has been covered previously (11+ / 0-)

      Further discussion is warranted but the hyperbole about this particular EO is excessive. The claim of an unbroken state of emergency requiring suspension of Constitutional rights since 9-11, however, is real cause for concern.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:42:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am concerned, (8+ / 0-)

        and I plan to find out more and do what I can to bring this out into the open, but I am not going to scream that this is the 2237th demise of the Republic while doing so.  This diary is indicative nothing more that the usual state of hyperbole that reigns here; real concers addressed with more of an toward the extreme than reality.

        •  I don't see tanks in the streets happening, (8+ / 0-)

          but I do think that there is much that needs discussed.

          I used to think of myself as firmly entrenched as part of the "reality based" community. I've lost track of the times I've told myself:

          "Nope, not possible, never gonna happen, There is just no way."

          and been utterly and completely wrong, because whatever crazy thing I was so positive the administration could never do, they did in fact go right ahead and do.

          I'm not sure of anything anymore. I've been wrong so many times because of my "reality based" beliefs. That said, I still don't see tanks in the streets... but I don't have much faith that my opinion should count for much anymore, I've been wrong so often in the past, I'm no longer a credible source of advice. I seem to have no talent for prophecy.

          "It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." Oscar Wilde, 1891

          by MichiganGirl on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:28:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Get you head out of the sand. Fait accomplished! (0+ / 0-)

      The new EO gives GWB power to arrest anyone, anytime without allowing any legal recoures to detainee. Bush and his Armed Posse can confiscate your assets and take your freedom with no explaination necessary.   What else would you call this but dictatorship?  

    •  The EO in an of itself is not that alarming (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl, drmah

      however, events on the whole, from the bizarre letter accusing Clinton of enemy propaganda, to the assertions of executive privilege which now go beyond what even the administration's lawyers themselves know to be the furthest conceivable legitimate boundaries of the privilege, to what appears to be positioning toward another illegitimate pre-emptive war (with Iran this time), to the increase in fear-mongering propaganda, to what I would call reckless disregard for safety here on American soil . . . all these things together . . . pretty damned alarming.  I say Roberts has made a pretty good case for the potential of an ongoing totalitarian takeover of this country.  I don't expect to see tanks in the streets of my neighborhood either, because they are not necessary to pacify the civilian population.  But if there were a large-scale protest in D.C., for example, absolutely nothing would shock me, including mass murder followed by the captive media explaining it all away as necessary for "Homeland" security.  

  •  Since Congress obviously doesn't yet... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kraant, kyril

    ...give a shit, we have to trust that they gradually WILL start giving a shit as it gets closer to 11/08.

    So maybe we might as well just turn this site into a chess club or something until next summer.

  •  Writing letters is no longer sufficient (8+ / 0-)

    or even productive.

    factses! we loves them forever!

    by cskendrick on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:38:16 AM PDT

  •  Nit: They Don't Have the Troops and Hardware (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    viscerality, kraant, DC Scott, kyril

    for classic tanks-in-the-streets martial law across the country.

    Like many of us boomers I lived through military imposed martial law in 1970. It's very army-intensive, they're short by a factor of 10 or 100 or more the amount of military to occupy a territory 5 or 10 times the size of Iraq.

    Dictatorship yes, but it won't be like that.

    And anyway they don't need it to be like that.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:42:46 AM PDT

    •  Wait a minute! I was 20 years old in 1970 (7+ / 0-)

      and I don't remember military-imposed martial law in that year. I'd have noticed. I was a committed anti-Nixon activist on my campus. What was that?

      Like many of us boomers I lived through military imposed martial law in 1970. It's very army-intensive, they're short by a factor of 10 or 100 or more the amount of military to occupy a territory 5 or 10 times the size of Iraq.

      •  Not Nationally, Locally On Many Campuses (8+ / 0-)

        and city neighborhoods when there'd been race riots at times.

        Armed police and National Guard occupied the Ohio State University campus and surrounding neighborhoods for some days. There were early evening curfews enforced, a ban on assembly of more than 3 persons enforced, arbitrary detentions, among other things.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:57:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Half agree (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, viscerality, kraant, gatorcog, kyril

      They don't need tanks, but they can still declare martial law.  There's no evidence to believe they need a broadly deployed force to keep martial law over The United States of Valium.

      "Don't you dare speak to us like we work for you." - Ben Harper

      by The Termite on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:50:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right, They Don't Have Any Need to Supervise (6+ / 0-)

        people's hourly activity.

        Suspended or heavily supervised elections, more aggressive issuance of official news, a big expansion of limits to citizens' ability to seek redress.

        "Emergency Powers" seems much more plausible.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:05:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  One word: Blackwater. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Louise, corvo, fatbob, SeaTurtle, kyril

        I commented the other day that I fully expected to see troops on the streets of DC much sooner rather than later.  (Armed sorts already patrol Capitol Hill to a fare thee well.)  Kyril replied:  

        What troops? (2+ / 0-)
        We "troops" swore allegiance to the Constitution. That's why he's having us killed and/or bogged down in the Middle East. So he can have his coup without us interfering. Blackwater is his private army

        HERE.

        Scary thought.  But these guys are d-a-n-g-e-r-o-u-s.  Even if we could impeach and convict quickly, I'd be fascinated to see how the removal worked out.  I mean, we gotta do what we gotta do, but these guys ain't going easily.  

        I'm glad Leahy and Conyers aren't backing down. And they are tough SOBs.  We're headed where we're headed because Bush, Cheney, Addington, et al. have gone off the reservation of us as a nation of laws, not men.  They declare the law (forget Article III courts).  They do what they want.  And they must be stopped, if for no other reason than to let future administrations know this widespread lawlessness is unthinkable.  

        "Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." To Kill A Mockingbird

        by DC Scott on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:23:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What if the 30% crowd becomes their army? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant

      What if the 30% of our citizenry - aka the hardcore Bushistas - turn against their fellow citizens in defense of Mister Bush's honor?

      I doubt the military would, en masse, turn against the citizenry at the command of a man who sent so many of them off to die for oil.

      Its the armed fundies that scare the hell outta me.

      "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

      by zeitshabba on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:53:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Doesn't that give us a 7 to 3 advantage? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

        by gatorcog on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:58:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Now people are talking about a civil war? (5+ / 0-)

        A civil goddamn war?  We're spinning our wheels here, people.  Yes, Bush has clearly violated law, and I'd love to see us pushing towards impeachment, but talking about how he is going to imprison all of us and bomb the convention, etc....it all speaks to me not just of up-in-arms fear but also egoism.  A bunch of pissed-off bloggers and democrats are not important enough to these guys.

        The Germany comparisons are inaccurate because, just a decade and a half before Hitler came to power, Germany had a war on its soil.  They had dictator after dictator, and a brand-new, fragile republic.  It was easier for a dictator to slip in and take power.

        Here, while Bush has used many of his powers dictatorially (probably as a puppet for Cheney, etc.), he is throwing it in the face of decades of traditional small-r republican government.  It is not as easy as you seem to think it is to start a dictatorship.

        Blackwater is not enough to be a private army, and even conservative Americans would not go down easily.  There will be no tanks in the streets.

        We need to focus on real, long-term solutions to undoing the problems caused by this administration, like the Bushite moles placed in the federal bureacracy, the gap between rich and poor, the healtcare crisis, etc.

        We need to stop thinking of these people as evil geniuses, and instead see them for what they are: Greedy and power-hungry politicians.  We've seen them before, but not at this level.  But this is not an entirely new phenomenon.  We just need to take the power back.

        •  But Germany didn't have (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mlle Orignalmale, kraant, DSPS owl, LucyMO

          American Idol!

          No, seriously, though, all historical comparisons are problematic and none is going to map to present reality to a 'T'.

          Paul Craig Roberts doesn't make an airtight case, but neither do you, my friend.

          I am with you that we are still at the point of taking the power back, but I am NOT opposed to these kinds of discussions because I learn from people who have been "connecting dots" in ways that I can't or haven't.  I don't want to be led down the primrose path.  No one EVER thinks that the unthinkable will happen.  There's a reason that it is called "the unthinkable."

          •  Thing is... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant, DSPS owl, MikePhoenix

            We don't have a national culture that has experienced dictatorship and is accepting of it.  Sure, Americans are lulled by entertainment, antidepressants, etc., but  even when we delude ourselves, we are used to some semblance of small-r republican government.  People being "disappeared" or thrown into camps wholesale will not fly, regardless of how much McDonalds the American public has consumed.  Not to say people don't sit idly as this is done to an extent (i.e. Guantanamo - someone referenced the Winterbottom film earlier), but we wouldn't let it get to the point of wholesale internment.

            I don't like what is going on in our government. Nobody here does.  I understand people's reactions...but some of the posts about stockpiling weapons...it's absurd.   Not because it's just "unthinkable" that they would do this, it's also unworkable from a technical standpoint.  We are not lulled by the German people, and despite Bush running roughshod over the Constitution, we at least have a long-standing Constitution.  Pre-war Germany and other states in similar situations generally have new, post-war Constitutions that enable dictators to take power more easily.

            We need to focus on undoing damage and long-term, real solutions.  If we keep distracting ourselves, we end up stuck in this weird reverse Dick Cheney personality cult.  It's not about any one person, as reprehensible as he may be.  We need to undo a movement.  This will take at least a generation.  But that is where we need to get our heads.

            •  Not to lend any credence to this diary (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant

              Nor to take any away - I simply have not investigated these executive orders enough to make an informed comment.

              But I will say that I think you severely underestimate how quickly American, or any society can change in the event of something cataclysmic.

              Fear can destroy a civilization. And it can do it quickly. The response to 911 should be evidence, if only a glimpse, of this fact. Post-Depression Germany should be absolute confirmation.

              What would it take for Americans to allow the locking up of their own citizens out of fear? Ask a Japanese-American who was around during WWII.

              The truth is the great institutions that have bound our country for generations, trust in government, the covenant of the New Deal, the sense of common purpose encapsulated in the Apollo missions, just to name a few, have been largely decimated and replaced with market democracy and the marketing of selfishness.

              We are strung together now by a thread. Democratic institutions are pariahs of incompetence. The new common purpose is let's make a deal. The next Moon landing will be sold to the highest Billionaire bidder. By Boeing.

              How hard will it be to dismantle a society whose only common purpose is mutually assured greed?

              One mini-nuke going off in one American city.

  •  Pass the foil or the duct tape (7+ / 0-)

    I'm no longer sure which, but like many here I begin to favor the tape.

    Here is a new Paul Craig Roberts column.

    This is a wake-up call that we are about to experience another 9/11-WMD experience. The wake-up call is unlikely to be effective, because the American attitude toward government changed fundamentally 70-odd years ago.

    Isn’t it more likely that Cheney and Rove have in mind events that will, once again, rally the people behind President Bush and the Republican Party, that is fighting the "war on terror" that the Democrats "want to lose"?

    Such events could take a number of forms. As even diehard Republican Patrick J. Buchanan observed on July 17, with three US aircraft carrier battle groups in congested waters off Iran, another Tonkin Gulf incident could easily be engineered to set us at war with Iran.

    Many Americans dismiss suspicion of their government as treasonous, and most believe conspiracy to be impossible "because someone would talk."

    There is no basis in any known fact for this opinion.

    According to polls, 36 percent of the American people disbelieve the 9/11 Commission Report.

    Moreover, people have talked. Hundreds of them. Firefighters, police, janitors, and others report hearing and experiencing a series of explosions in upper floors and massive explosions in the underground basements. This eyewitness testimony was kept under wraps for three or more years until the official explanation had taken root. The oral histories were finally forced loose by Freedom Of Information Act suits. The eyewitness reports of explosion after explosion had no effect.

    "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." Plato

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:42:49 AM PDT

    •  Yikes (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, govib, viscerality, kraant

      So Roberts thinks the towers were an inside job. While Tower 7 has some strangeness to it, I was also an eyewitness. The planes hit. They fell after burning a while. High temp fires do all sorts of strange things - many of the supposed signs of arson that investigators used to rely on turn out to be normal behavior of building fires, from things like especially flammable gases building up near the ceilings. Bush & Cheney are no more perfectly intelligent evil enemies than bin Laden and the Saudi royal family are.

      Devious and wicked, yes. But for every bit of cleverness there are two bits of blind stupidity. We need to see them as they are.

      •  don't be silly (0+ / 0-)

        We all know that right-wing wackos like Roberts are more credible than your own eyes.  Or something like that :)

        Undecided, due to abundance of good choices. Interestingly, I've never heard a Republican say that.

        by cardinal on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:14:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think he makes some good points (0+ / 0-)

        Like:

        That powerfully constructed steel buildings could suddenly turn to dust because they were struck by two flimsy aluminum airliners and experienced small fires on a few floors that burned for a short time appears unexceptionable to a majority of Americans.

        And it is ironic indeed that a former Reagan official can say what cannot be said on DKos. Still, I am not 100% convinced that 9-11 was an inside job, I just note the irony.

        Roberts has some more good things to say though:

        Bush has the Republican Party in such a mess that it cannot survive without another 9/11. Whether authentic or orchestrated, an attack will activate Bush’s new executive orders, which create a dictatorial police state in event of "national emergency."

        The UK government is hand-in-glove with the Bush administration and will provide cover or verification for whatever claim the Bush administration advances. So will the right-wing governments in Canada and Australia. That takes care of the English-speaking world from which contrary explanations might reach the American people.

        It is possible that Bush is now too weak, that suspicion is too great, and that there is too much internal resistance in the federal bureaucracy and military for any such scenario. If so, then my prediction prior to the invasion that the US invasion of Iraq will destroy Bush, the Republican Party, and the conservative movement will be proven true. The Democrats’ strategy of doing nothing except making sure Bush gets his way will produce the landslide that they expect.

        However, this assumes that Cheney, Rove, and their neoconservative allies have lost their cunning and their manipulative skills. It is difficult to imagine a more dangerous assumption for Democrats and the American people to make.

        This strikes me as more reasonable and I agree that it is very dangerous to allow this neocon junta to live another day. We need to pull the plug on them now.

        "Freedom of speech isn't something somebody else gives you. That's something you give to yourself." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

        by brenda on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 10:15:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Alright, this is nut-wackery (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharif

      I'm sorry.  I read the piece you linked to and the piece he links to from within there about how "suspicious" it is that the towers collapsed.  I am of the opinion that there is nothing even remotely suspicious about the fact that the buildings collapsed.  Anyone who writes in all seriousness that jet fuel and gravity are somehow self-evidently insufficient to explain the collapse is just not living the fact-based world, IMHO.  I would like to hear what eyewitnesses had to say about explosions in the basement, for all kinds of reasons, but as to the rest of it . . .

  •  Time to start... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Builderman, Silverbird, corvo, kraant, DC Scott

    ...thinking about how to stand against this.  So far the best thing I can come up with is once martial law is declared, ten minutes after the first curfew I'm getting on the freeway and driving in defiance until I'm either arrested or shot.  If a few thousand people feel the same way, that might make a difference.  The system is not set up to handle a large number of people who insist on being jailed.  (That was part of Dr. King's strategy way back when.)

    On a more practical level, we should be arming ourselves -- now, while the option is still available to us.  This is not hyperbole.  Nor am I suggesting we do this for any means other than self-defense.  I've never owned a gun.  Any recommendations?

    But we need to decide now how we will react then.  This site will almost certainly not be available to swap ideas when it happens.

    "...the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart." -- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

    by Roddy McCorley on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:43:57 AM PDT

    •  Never been a real 2d Amendment guy until now. nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Builderman, corvo

      "Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." To Kill A Mockingbird

      by DC Scott on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:24:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  For pure self-defense (0+ / 0-)

      if you're looking to carry, grab a S&W revolver. Reasonable price, reliable, simple, safe. .357 is my choice, but a .22 will do just fine. Whatever you pick, make sure to practice with it (lots) before considering carrying it, or even applying for the permit to do so. To quote another Kossack on this matter, "a gun is not a magic death ray"; overconfidence and inexperience can be a fatal combination. If you're not willing to put in the work to get good with a pistol, just carry a weapon you know (knife, dagger, pitchfork...)

      If you just want to defend your home, a shotgun is great. Pump action is best (scares people). Again, practice.

      If you want to join la resistance, you'll probably want a rifle, and I can't offer any suggestions there.

      Go to Baghdad now and fulfill, finally, your military service obligations. Go there and fight your war, yourself. -Keith Olbermann

      by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:45:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Need to get out in mass. But nonviolently. (0+ / 0-)

      There is no point in going armed against a better armed foe.  Use moral authority, of which the US has none left.

      We must be free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it. -- William Faulkner --

      by Silverbird on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:26:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  At 62 I'm way older than you (20+ / 0-)

    But for the life of me I cannot figue out why most Americans aren't in the streets screaming enough, enough.

    Could it be that demonstration by indignation at the keyboard is an opiate and works well for those who have decided they really own this country?

    Help wanted: Veteran's Administrator. Requirements: Hates Bush / Loves Vets. Somebody call Paul Rieckhoff. Thankyouverymuch

    by llbear on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:44:35 AM PDT

    •  I Agree That the Internet Is a Safety Valve (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      limaike, viscerality, kraant, llbear, LucyMO, kyril

      To contain the "street energies" you would otherwise have in response to an administration like this one. Thirty years ago, most people didn't have an outlet for their voice, however small. That is the mixed blessing of the Net.

      "Follow those who seek the truth. Beware of those who find it."

      by gnolti on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:48:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The net took the place of the street (9+ / 0-)

      People are in the streets, except the street is now the net.

      I remember the rage of the '60s. All you could do was write a letter to the editor and see it ignored and not publihsed. Your only option was the street.

      Now you can take to the web. And I think the web is a lot more effective. The turn against the Viet Nam war took 7 or 8 years. It happened with Iraq in two or three.

      Bush will eventually censor or shut down the web. You will then see people in the streets - if it isn't too dangerous.

      •  That's my point (0+ / 0-)

        Shutting down the web gets him nothing.

        Let the rage go on and on online. Let the little people vent all they want.  While many more are informed, no one is going to put the brakes on a run away Government.  

        In the Army I was a Counterintelligence Agent. I am not one to buy into conspiracy scenarios, or the Natzification theory Bush and Cheney are supposedly working through.  

        But I am getting alarmed.  I am beginning to think the Republican leadership believes they can control anything, including the next election. If they can install 2 more Supreme Court Justices, I think they can.

        Help wanted: Veteran's Administrator. Requirements: Hates Bush / Loves Vets. Somebody call Paul Rieckhoff. Thankyouverymuch

        by llbear on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:23:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Look (7+ / 0-)

    they may want a dictatorship but only if it can guarantee perpetual profits at Wal-Mart and in global banking, insurance, etc...

    Dictatorship in the US would wreak havoc on the world economy, and not to the benefit of the dollar, which would crumble to nothing if prominent and non-prominent people alike were whisked off to the hoosegow and disappeared.

    What currently exists is an oligarchy of giant corporate interests and they like things just fine the way they are right now thank you very much. DailyKos isn't going to do much to change the topography of a highly complex political landscape.

    That said, I believe Cheney's secret meetings with the Saudis and Bush's land venture in Paraguay point to something ominous, one just can't say what yet.

  •  The one upside to a police state... (7+ / 0-)

    When it finally ends (they always do) all the Ann Coulters, Bill O'Reillys, etc. will be rounded up and jailed for treason for life.

    •  Hannah Arendt (4+ / 0-)

      said the same, they always go after their supporters in the end.  The system always has to consume enemies until there are no enemies left, then it consumes itself, which is why it is a system doomed to fail in the long run.

      Or as Büchner wrote: The revolution is like Saturn, it eats its own.

      Sapere Aude! [dare to know] "Have courage to use your own understanding!"--that is the motto of enlightenment. - I. Kant

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:34:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ummm.... (24+ / 0-)

    OK, I understand the thinking behind all this. But I think that the game's been over for a long, long time now; "disappearing" people, actual martial law, etc. etc. etc. is wholly unnecessary.

    DKos isn't going to disappear; Markos won't be black-holed. Our system of "free and fair(TM)" elections will continue as it always has, and either tweedle dum or tweedle dee will duly take office thereafter.

    IMO, it's sheer megalomania to think that "they" are going to come for "us," individually or en masse. In order for that to be a credible proposition, we would have to matter. And we don't, and we haven't for several generations now.

    Bush, Cheney, the whole political process, even the wars are the sideshow. Real power isn't political, it's economic, and if you've paid a scintilla of attention to what's happened with regards to the concentration of corporate, individual, and state wealth, nationally and internationally, over the last four decades you can see where that power really lies. Even the Repig/Dem schism is ultimately a diversionary tactic intended to distract the sheeple from what really matters - just like "Survivor" is.

    What we're not supposed to notice: We are owned, completely, fully, in our entirety, body and soul, from birth to death. What we think abou