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I’m getting ready to head to Chicago for YKos.

There were a handful of items I wanted to mention on my way out the door.

First, we are having an impact. I have been asking folks to contact the House Resources Committee and ask that they include the voice of the workers in their August 15 Hearing on proposed reform legislation for the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI).

Today it was announced that one of the CNMI groups representing the Guest Workers has been invited to the Hearing:

U.S. House Subcommittee on Insular Affairs chair Rep. Donna Christensen has invited Dekada Movement president Bonifacio V. Sagana to testify at the field hearing on a bill proposing to extend federal immigration laws to the CNMI.

It is a good start, but there is more to do if justice is to be extended to the CNMI.

That, Jeff Flake and Hillary/Sweatshop pie on the jump...

It is a good news that Rep. Christensen invited the head of Dekada to hearing. Good news, but only that. If justice is to come to the CNMI we will need the 110th Congress to hear what is happening to the foreign contract workers—in our name—on the far flung US Territory in the Western Pacific.

We need to encourage Congress to invite more workers and their representatives to the Hearing. This should include some of the 3,000 plus US Citizen who are children of parents who have no rights on the CNMI. When these workers are capriciously deported by the vile CNMI system of injustice, their minor children are forced into exile with their parents or left to fend for themselves on the CNMI. This story needs to be told and reform legislation must end this abuse.

Please keep contacting the staff of the subcommittee and the Members of the Insular Affairs Subcommittee. Ask them, politely but firmly, to:

  • Include the voices of the workers at the August, 15 CNMI Hearing. In addition to Dekada, Congress should hear from Ronnie Doca, President of Filcowa and Jerry Custodio, President of the Human Dignity Act Movement. These are all leaders working together to organize the workers and advocate for their rights.
  • Include some of the 3,000 plus US Citizen children of these legal workers on the CNMI. Their stories should be heard.
  • Include Laurie Ogomuro  of Guma Esperansa to hear about the women her organization has rescued from the human trafficking sex trade and those they have not been able to rescue.
  • Meet with Wendy Doromal to testify about her summer spent investigating the current situation on the CNMI. They should read her 7-19-07 statement to Senate Hearing on the CNMI (PDF).

Wendy will be in Washington soon to try and get Members of the 110th Congress to read her new 2007 CNMI Report, to watch video of workers testifying and hear about the current state of affairs on the far flung US Territory. Let me know if you can help her on her trip.

It is way past time to shut down this system of abuse based on human trafficking, stealing the labor of others and keeping workers in the bondage of modern slavery.

CNMI reform legislation has been introduced in the Senate, S. 1634 and in the House, H.R. 3079.

Both Bills are similar and both share common flaws. Perhaps the most glaring is that these invited workers in the CNMI—who are there legally and have been there for years and years—do not have any pathway to US Citizenship.

While these Bills have some problems, it is important to remember that the goal of the Pirates of Saipan and their allies is to delay legislation, slow it down and once again kill reform. We can not let them run that same game plan again.

We have to use this Legislation as the vehicle for Reform and work to strengthen them. Adding these changes would greatly improve the legislation:

  1. Create a pathway to Citizenship for Guest Workers who have been on the CNMI for more than five years—and a Green Card for all workers with children who are US Citizens.
  1. Outline a clear appeals process for any worker denied Immigration Status and/or other rights by the local CNMI Government through new or existing Federal systems of appeals.
  1. Mandate that all CNMI entry visa programs—both work and tourist—are run by the Federal Government. (To allow the local CNMI Government to run a tourist visa program is to allow human trafficking.)
  1. Mandate random, spot check interviews of guest workers and tourists as they arrive and leave the CNMI to ensure that they were (and are not) victims of abuse.

If we can add amendments to make the above changes, we could have final legislation that is real reform.

One member of the the Insular Affairs Subcommittee is Jeff Flake of Arizona.

Flake is one of those Republicans they trot out when the GOP gang wants to show their face of reform. You know, Flake is the guy battling those "Earmarks" and other ethical lapses of Congress.

So naturally he would be the guy the Republican Party asked to carry water for the Pirates of Saipan, the Tan Family and those who support sweatshops and labor abuse around the globe. And being a loyal foot soldier he has stepped in to accomplish legislation left over from Jack Abramoff’s To Do List.

I’m talking about H.R. 3165. This seemingly innocuous piece of legislation would make some "tweaks" to General Note 3(a)(iv)(A) of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States [also known as Headnote (3)a]. This would change the rules for goods manufactured on the CNMI and imported into the rest of the United States.

Right now, there is a Tariff on goods shipped from the CNMI if more than 50% of it was made elsewhere. Flake’s bill would change that to 70% and in some cases more. It would mean that the Tan Family could basically finish garments in their factories in China. Pass them through shops on the CNMI for "finishing" and a "Made in the Northern Mariana Islands, USA" label, and then ship the goods duty free into the rest of the USA.

It is free money for the Tan Family and the other foreign investors of sweatshops on the CNMI. The Flake Tariff Advantage will offset the hit the CNMI sweatshops took when textile quotas were lifted from Chinese. The Pirates of Saipan are betting that it will revitalize their economy—which means more CNMI sweatshops.

Flake’s Bill should be called The Sweatshops Revitalization Act of 2007. It has been referred to the Rules Committee. It should die there. And Flake should pay a price for trying to complete Abramoff’s unfinished legislative goals.

Now, after real CNMI reform legislation, that gives the workers rights and a path to Citizenship, it might make sense to review the provisions of Headnote (3)a, but not before. And then only if there are protections to ensure that the days of a labor abuse economy on the CNMI are over.

Flake’s Bill is free candy for Pirates. Talk about an "Earmark". Abramoff had been trying to find somebody to bump up the percentage made in China to 70% since 1998. Nice try Jeff.

And now to Pie

It was interesting to wade into the swamp of Primary Politics the other day when I posted, Sweatshop/Abramoff Cash = Trouble for Clinton.

Since I’ve been writing about the Abramoff scandal, modern Slavery and the abuse on the CNMI, I had grown use to my Diaries having a small and regular readership. Every now and then one would get on the "recommended" list. A few even gathered up to 300 comments or so.

Most have been widely supported by this community and the only real exceptions have been when I’ve posted a Diary on how the issues I write about intersect with Primary Politics. Take this one, The Corruption/Reform Primary: Meet the Democrats as a good example.

Still, I was not prepared for the reaction to Monday’s Diary on Sweatshop cash being donated to Senator Clinton.

I’ve read a lot of "pie fight" Diaries, but I never instigated one—until now. An interesting experience to be sure.

The Dairy had over 600 comments. I was called a liar, a Republican (???) and other unpleasant things. There were emotional comments and emotional Troll Ratings in response. There were even a few thinly veiled threats directed towards me. The discussion spawned other Diaries, one defending me (thanks) and one attacking me (thanks). I have to say it was interesting.

When I went to work Monday morning, there were about 60 comments. When I got home there were over 550. It took some time to read them and respond.

I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone who contributed; especially those who were challenged by the Diary and took issue with it. I appreciated the comments and the criticism—even when it was harsh.

Beyond the knee-jerk, "how dare you talk about Hillary that way" variety of comments, there were some that I thought deserved a response.

Many took issue with my including Abramoff in the title of the Diary. I’ve reflected on it and sadly it fits.

The Tan Family and Jack Abramoff were partners in corruption. Jack received millions of dollars from them—on and off the books—to fund the Republican effort to establish One-Party-Rule in the United States. Money from the Tan Family is the same as money from Abramoff. Actually it’s worse.

The first part of the Diary title Sweatshop/Abramoff Cash referred to the $10,000 that the Tan Family donated to Senator Clinton in 2005. It was and is a fact that the money is tied to both sweatshops and Jack Abramoff.

The second part of the title, = Trouble for Clinton reflected my belief that it is a bad thing for her to have this money in her record of donations.

Another element in the Diary that generated comments was when I attempted to make the case of how the media would treat these donations if they got to break the story. To do this I created an imagined news story as it might be written by the Politico or a hack working for the AP, WP or NYTs.

In my imagined story, I illustrate how these donations can (and will be) conflated in the press. This story morphs a donation made in 2005 to HRC’s Senate campaign into a donation for a Presidential Campaign that was yet to be announced.

My channeling a future "news" article and the using a common "journalistic trick" to conflate the donations, confused some readers. I thought I had placed a disclaimer on it, but it was clearly way too subtle. I assumed that readers would understand it as a cautionary tale. Some did not. If you took that section with the imagined "news" story, to be me stating the "facts" of my case, you could fairly leap to the conclusion that I was lying. It’s a hard path of logic to follow, but I can see how somebody could get there.

If I confused you with this, please accept my apologies.

There were others who thought I was wrong to say anything that the Republicans might use against a Candidate who might be our nominee for President. They seemed to prefer silence to confronting facts. I think that is the wrong approach.

We share a common goal at this site.
We want Democrats to win in 2008 and beyond.

We want to win back the White House and everything down the ticket—all the way down to Dog Catcher (as they used to say).

To get to that end game, we have to be ready to fight the coming attack on the Democratic Nominee in 2008 and all our Candidates.

Make no mistake, the attack is coming.

I think it is best for us to raise those lines of attack now. Have them vetted on this site, in the Primary and use that experience to prepare our candidates for the onslaught.

This link to the Tan donation is one of the very few "new" lines of attack that can be used against Hillary. Most everything else they have to throw at her is old news.

That is why I raise it now. I want HRC and her supporters to knock it down, make it right and neutralize this meme before the GOP has a chance to use it.

We have to be willing to "Red Team" our candidates. We have to challenge them, probe and expose their weaknesses. It is rough, but worthwhile. If we had subjected Kerry to this he might have been ready to fight back when the attacks came.

Clinton, Edwards, Obama or any of the rest: I want them to be battle tested. I want them to be ready to respond.

For those who were (and are) angry that I keep bringing up this tainted $10,000 donated to Hillary Clinton, I remind you that we are both working towards the same end game. Our tactics are different. I respect your take, but I feel now is the time to expose any and all weaknesses in our candidates.

Doing this work here at Daily Kos is another advantages that this site can give our candidates.

That said it is important to be civil. To remember we are on the same side. Folks who disagree with me should be able to say so without fear of a TR—even if they are angry when they say it. Civility would be nice, but I understand that it is not always possible in the moment.

The give and take is healthy. So are our emotions.

That's the way it is some times in the old blogosphere. I'm used to it.

Still, the piefight left me longing for something else.

What I would really like to see is a Diary on Modern Slavery generating as much passion as one on Hillary Clinton; or a Diary on the abuse of workers on the CNMI spawning other Diaries to keep the conversation going; or a Dairy about an American Hero like Wendy Doromal generating 600 comments.

That would be nice.

Cheers

Originally posted to dengre on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:45 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Yearly Kos (42+ / 1-)

    I’ll get into Chicago on Thursday. If you are going to Yearly Kos and want to compare notes on the GOP culture of corruption, Abramoff, the CNMI or just to say hi, let me know and I’ll try to connect.

    And thanks for indulging my pre-Yearly Kos ramblings.

    Cheers

    Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

    by dengre on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:36:50 PM PDT

  •  Ayup! (13+ / 0-)

    We have to be willing to "Red Team" our candidates. We have to challenge them, probe and expose their weaknesses. It is rough, but worthwhile. If we had subjected Kerry to this he might have been ready to fight back when the attacks came.

    2008 is starting to look more and more like 2004 to me.

  •  Why don't you do something construtive vis a vis (9+ / 0-)

    Clinton and tell people here about the bills she sponsored that benefit the workers in the slaveshops and detail how she's voted on the bills that impact them? What votes of hers on issues that impact the Marianas do you disapprove of? What votes do you approve of? When she was visiting Marianis, who did she meet with and what did she have to say about that?

    You presented a lot of innuendo and no facts - just your own dismay that donations were received. I don't know why you have a problem with senators accepting money and then voting against the interests of the donors, but apparently you do. Fair enough. But you left out that there is no relationship between those donations and her votes, didn't you?

    I wonder why you would do something like that? Find one negative thing and blow that up, while ignoring all the positive stuff? Weird.

    BTW, haven't there been something  like 29 votes in recent years on this issue? On all bills that would impact the Marianas, how many senators have better voting records than Clinton and who are they?

    •  Lorelynn (23+ / 0-)

      Since Hillary became a Senator, there have been very few votes on the CNMI issue. It came up in 2001 and like most of the Senate, she voted for reform.

      I know you do not believe this, but I do not have a core problem with Senator Clinton. She may be the Nominee of the Party and if she is I will support her. I do have a problem with the abuse on the CNMI.

      There does not have to be a quid pro quo for the Tan money to be a problem. You know as well as I know that whomever our Candidate is she or he will be attacked. We have to get ready. Keeping this money in her donation record opens her to an attack. An attack she can shut down now. I would like her to do so. That is not "Clinton Bashing".

      I'm not ignoring the positive stuff, but I am writing about the beat I cover. If and when HRC takes a stand or the lead on human trafficking, sweatshops, corruption and the CNMI, I will write about it. So far, like the rest of the field, she is mostly silent on the issues I'm following.

      I've spelled out what I think should happen. Here it is again:

      1. Senator Clinton Returns the money.
      1. Senator Clinton donates $10,000 (or more) to support workers currently suffering hardship on the CNMI.
      1. Senator Clinton makes the time to meet personally with human rights worker Wendy Doromal (who just returned from several weeks in the Territory) and be briefed on the current conditions facing foreign contract workers on the CNMI.
      1. Senator Clinton comes out in favor of CNMI reform legislation (S. 1634 and H.R. 3079) with amendments to extend a clear pathway to Citizenship for long term workers and immediate Green Cards for the parents of US Citizen children (see the list above).

      I have many friends who support her. Some, who I respect greatly have worked for her. I value their opinion, but I still have to say this money is a problem.

      It is a problem because the Tan Family is so bad. She has returned money from other folks with problems attached to them. The Tan $10,000 should not be any harder to return.

      I want her to lead on this issue. I would rather spend my time on other things.

      Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry that I did not catch things the other day in real time. You have the right to take me to task and I appreciate you for doing so.

      Cheers

      Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

      by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:31:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "I have many friends who support her"... (5+ / 14-)

        ...you sound like the right-wing nutjobs who "politely" say "I have many friends who are [insert minority type] but I wanted to point out that [insert anti-minority type veiled smear]."  Give me a break.

        Support the Clinton Climate Initiative http://www.clintonfoundation.org

        by Berkeley Vox on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:36:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Whatever, there are candidates in this race that (6+ / 0-)

        have not been vetted in the least, and any attempt to do so would immediately be labeled a trool diary.  You're preaching to the choir here, and I think it is sport to beat up Hillary on a site that is basically filled with people who feel the exact same way as you.  Why not have some respect for those of us who support her, who may have a "hard core problem" with some of the other candidates but don't repeatedly post the same tired diaries?

      •  And yet the issue doesn't mean enough to you for (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caldonia, KnowVox

        you to be scrupulously honest on it's behalf or to demand that all the presidential candidates rise to the standards you propose for Clinton. You don't do that. Apparently, if none of the other canddidates ever says or does anything on the subject, you're fine with that. Why is that? The Clinton admin sued the Tans at least, and got a record breaking fine out of them. Weird how you didn't mention that.Hillary's sponsored legislation on their behalf and yet you propose blatantly false stories for the press to run with for her. It seems to me that you're pissing all over the people who are actually on your side.  

        BTW, you fooled the people who thought you weren't lying, not the people who thought you were.

        Your values and morality clearly aren't what you think they are.

        Truth is esssential.

        •  What's funny (8+ / 0-)

          is that we never bother to establish quid pro quo when we attack politicians on the Right from taking donations from Abramoff, or the Tan family, or whomever.  Why do you think that is?

          Apparently it's only an issue when our own candidates are taking dirty money.  dengre has every reason to be angry and suspicious of any candidate who takes money from them, given the research he's done on this issue.    And so do we.  And being nasty in response doesn't change that.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:55:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There was plenty of quid pro quo on the right. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caldonia, masslib, KnowVox

            That's why people are in prison. And he may have the right to be angry but not to make shit up as he did.

            Proposing phony news stores with blatantly false ledes doesn't help his cause.

            •  If you're comfortable (13+ / 0-)

              with Clinton accepting money from one of the worst corrupting influences we know of (and you really should read dengre's many diaries on this topic), then that's your albatross.  I am not, and I'd be furious if my representative did.  

              Instead you're beating that fake news story into the ground instead of addressing the very real issue of the Tan family's record.

              But shall we make a wager?  If Hillary receives the nomination, and the Tan donations become part of the attacks against her, do you respectfully ask dengre to forgive you?

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:03:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yet, he says the Tans have been out of sweatshops (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                KnowVox

                for a long time. So how is that any different than any other legal donation? Hillary votes against the interests of the sweatshop owners. As long as she does that, why do I care if they fund her campaign? Why would Dengre? It makes no literal sense whatseover.

                This is just a troll diary - it's filled with innuendo and no substance.

                •  Not paying attention (0+ / 0-)

                  The Tan Family has been closing their shops on the CNMI. They have many other factories humming across the globe. If Flake's Bill were to go through they would start their sweatshops on the CNMI again.

                  More than that the Tan Family has many more items of business before the Congress than just their garment manufacturing. I've written about them in the past if you're curious.

                  The money is tainted.

                  I am sorry these facts have intruded your bubble. They seem to place you in ill-humor

                  Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                  by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:09:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  It was Bush the Elder's DOL (12+ / 0-)

          Who sued the Tan's and I was unaware of an Legislation Senator Clinton has "Sponsored" concerning the CNMI. I will be more than happy to point that out if you can give me the name of the Legislation and which Congress it was in.

          Would these "errors" of yours be intentional lies in support of your Candidate?

          I would say no, but if I was using your standard of judgement, I would have to say yes.

          Truth is essential.

          The $10,000 is from the Tan Family. I say that is true. Am I wrong?

          The Tan Family is deeply connected to sweatshops and Jack Abramoff. I say that is true. Am I wrong?

          Hillary Clinton has not returned nor addressed these tainted funds in any way. I say that is true. Am I wrong? (Here I would love somebody to prove that something has been done and I missed it. Can you?)

          The money is a problem for Senator Clinton?I say that is true. It is for me. Am I wrong?

          Obviously you do not have any concerns about this cash what so ever. If I get your argument, you are telling me that the greatest immorality in this story is anybody pointing out that this donation exists. I pointed it out. Therefore I am a liar and immoral.

          I returned to thsi topic in a follow-up Diary because I was amazed at the logic behind some of the attacks on me.

          I still am.

          Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

          by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:31:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  G'morning dengre. (6+ / 0-)

            After all these years of work, suddenly you've prodded a sacred cow.  We knew there'd be controversy of this, didn't we?  I've half considered trying to sign up for the Hillary caucus.  But one has to wonder if one raised this issue in that venue, surrounded by her fans, if one wouldn't put oneself in (a small degree) of danger.

            I hope it does come out in the crowded room.  Anything less than that, and it would appear that the likely effect would be to suppress the issue.

            See you tomorrow, or at least soon...

            "Every single Democratic candidate is immeasurably better than what we have in the White House now." - Sen. Joe Biden paraphrased

            by Land of Enchantment on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:51:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Check the minimum wage legislation, I mentioned. (1+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            KnowVox
            Hidden by:
            KenBee

            It raises the wages in the Marianas which you know as well I do that they opposed. And yes, Clinton sponsored that. You didn't include in that diary. The Tan case was settled in 1993 when Bush was no longer in office - say what you will, the Clinton admin won a massive settlement against thm. And you, yourself, state that the Tans are no longer in the sweatshop business.

            The truth of the matter is that donation is no different than any other donation. She doesn't vote in the interests of the sweatshop owners and she has sponsored legislation that benefits the workers, that the owners oppose. And that's only from a cursory examination of the votes. You present not ONE SHRED of information that suggests any level of compromise. And compromise is essential to the donation being dirty. You don't even present evidence of them lobbying her.

            You don't have the basic level of integrity to include that in your post. Your post was scurrilous, dishonest and disgraceful. You aren't the person you think you are. On a fundamental level, you don't know right from wrong.

      •  List All the Democrats (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KnowVox

        Who have met with Wendy Doromal.

        When you start imploring all Democrats to meet with this person, you, in my opinion will have some credibility!

        Everyone here says you have credibility because you've been here a long time and have posted a lot on this issue.

        Seems facile to me.

        Prove it.  Show us the Posts where you Implore all Democrats to meet with Wendy Doromal and then I will be convinced that this means something more to you than just an excuse to attack Senator Clinton!

        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:43:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  *cough (8+ / 0-)

          From the diary you're neglecting to read:

          Please keep contacting the staff of the subcommittee and the Members of the Insular Affairs Subcommittee. Ask them, politely but firmly, to:

             * Include the voices of the workers at the August, 15 CNMI Hearing. In addition to Dekada, Congress should hear from Ronnie Doca, President of Filcowa and Jerry Custodio, President of the Human Dignity Act Movement. These are all leaders working together to organize the workers and advocate for their rights.
             * Include some of the 3,000 plus US Citizen children of these legal workers on the CNMI. Their stories should be heard.
             * Include Laurie Ogomuro  of Guma Esperansa to hear about the women her organization has rescued from the human trafficking sex trade and those they have not been able to rescue.
             * Meet with Wendy Doromal to testify about her summer spent investigating the current situation on the CNMI. They should read her 7-19-07 statement to Senate Hearing on the CNMI (PDF).

          There are two types of people who need to meet with Wendy Doromal: those on the committees directly affected, and those who have taken donations from people directly connected.  The diarist has over and over and over again asked this community to contact both.  "All Democrats" don't have to, because "all Democrats" aren't directly affected.

          Nice try, though.  Actually, no it wasn't.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:56:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dengre's been working this... (8+ / 0-)

          ...seriously, for years.  Every angle.  You're demonstrating your ignorance of his hard work, over time.  We got on each other's radar screens while I was working to bring down Pombo (it worked, YAY!)  Our interests intersected, and we've cooperated and supported each other's work ever since.

          And you, Edgar08, what else might you be contributing beyond kvetching from the sidelines?  dengre's a very respected member of this community, having built an extraordinary track record over time.  He's one of the most thorough researchers we've got.

          You're barking up the wrong tree here.  

          "Every single Democratic candidate is immeasurably better than what we have in the White House now." - Sen. Joe Biden paraphrased

          by Land of Enchantment on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:48:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then I would expect to see (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Governor McCheese

            Because I know Money in Politics is never pure, here is what I would like to see.  I don't have time to click on every link. If you are intimately aware of everything Dengre has written on the subject, here is my request:

            Please show me where Dengre attacks any other Democrat on the issue of such Donations.  On the larger of issue of the role money plays in Politics.  On the issue of Democratic Politicians having money traced back to evil people.

            I would request to see that.

            For instance, please tell me Dengre has something to say about Mr. Gore's personal holdings in Occidental Petroleum, an oil company embroiled in a human-rights dispute with the U'wa Indians of Colombia.  Don't parse words, and try to explain how that's different.  Gore had a moneyed connection to Human Rights Violators.  I want to see Dengre's comment on that!!!!

            Ok.  That's what I need to see, and I'll back off this issue.

            If the only person Dengre has ever gone after on this issue is Clinton, then I, most clearly am entitled to draw whatever conclusion I want from that!!!!

            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:04:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you did click every link of dengre, (5+ / 0-)

              you would discover that he reports exclusively on the CNMI issue, not every Human Rights Issue. I have read and rec'd maybe 20 of his diaries over time because I share his interest due to my many Chinese friends.

              I have no doubt that if Gore or anyone else showed up on his CNMI radar, they would be taken to task as well.

              It's easy...return the 10G and it's a done deal.  It's chump change in a modern campaign budget.

              Hell, if I had 10 large layin' around I'd give it up myself just to remove any future accusation of impropriety against any Democrat.

              I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

              by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:24:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Convenient (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                KnowVox

                Address the issue of money in politics.

                That's all I'm asking.

                You can trace 10k from Clinton Senate Campaign coffers back to 5 members of the Tan family.

                You can trace probably more money Gore had to Human Rights Violators in Colombia.

                Nobody has an opinion on that cause they know full well that to attack Gore on that issue would not be received well.

                It's hypocritical.

                I'll call 'em as I see 'em.

                I saw one guy yesterday actually finally admit the Tickets received by Reid were wrong.

                I at least had to admire that person for being able to not play favorites on the issue.

                "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:29:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What part of (7+ / 0-)

                  he reports exclusively on the CNMI issue,

                  do you not understand?

                  If you want to write a diary about every politician that has ties to funky money, knock yourself out.

                  This diary is not about that, so stop blaming dengre and write your own diary about Columbia, tickets or whatever.  I'll read it and if you are correct, I'll rec it.

                  I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                  by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:37:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And I call that Convenient (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    KnowVox

                    It's like if I had a grudge against Obama and then claimed to only report exclusively on questionable land deals in Illinois.

                    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:41:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are accusing dengre of having a gudge (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      pico, KenBee, hypersphere01, Got a Grip

                      against Clinton?

                      Is that what you just wrote?

                      I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                      by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:44:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  and then used that sorry excuse to (4+ / 0-)

                        slam another Democrat?

                        I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                        by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:48:32 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I didn't slam anyone (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KnowVox

                          At least, not anymore so than Dengre is using his "area of expertise" to slam Clinton.

                          I think the attacks on Obama re: Rezko are every bit as contrived and wrong as this.

                          "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                          by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:52:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  I am saying that it is convenient (0+ / 0-)

                        That his area of expertise forces him to focus on one candidate.

                        Listen, I'm not saying he needs to change his focus.

                        Just have something to say about Gore's holdings in Occidental Petroleum that's all.

                        That's all it would take for me.

                        I agree with his issue.  I said that below.

                        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:50:58 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, it reads like (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KenBee, hypersphere01, Got a Grip

                          you will use any issue to swiftboat any other candidate or potential candidate other than yours. Obama, Gore... who else do you want to badmouth here?

                          I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                          by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:54:35 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You're being Dense (on purpose?) (0+ / 0-)

                            You know I'm not badmouthing them.

                            I'm saying the argument presented here is the same as the argument presented against them.

                            I think you know that.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:55:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not dense, just giving you (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KenBee, hypersphere01, Got a Grip

                            enough rope an opportunity to answer some simple questions.

                            I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                            by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:00:18 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just so it's clear. (0+ / 0-)

                            Here's some facts as documented from the 2004 campaign:

                            Gore did have holdings in Occidental Petroleum.

                            Gore did get Donations from a CEO at Loew's Hotel.

                            This is no problem for me.  I look at those facts and I tell myself "So What?  I know Gore.  I know Gore is for Worker's Rights."

                            Is this a problem for you?

                            Do you have a problem with these facts.  When you see those facts I would like to know what you tell yourself????!!!!!

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:04:05 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What I do understand is that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KenBee, Got a Grip

                            you may have a motive here and it's not electing Democrats.

                            You seem to enjoy using"talking points" that are not pertinent and not from this side of the aisle.

                            I love it when a plan comes together! ~The A Team

                            by Zwoof on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:24:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see (0+ / 0-)

                            Whatever contortions you have to go through to call what I just said:  

                            "So What?  I know Gore.  I know Gore is for Worker's Rights."

                            Whatever contortions you have to go through to call that statement "talking points .. not from this side of the aisle."

                            In short.  Whatever.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:30:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And for the Record (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm am most certainly not the one who agrees with Byron York on this issue!!!!!

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:31:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  So let me get this straight: (5+ / 0-)

                          he shouldn't be diarying the CNMI issue so extensively, because it only looks bad for Sen. Clinton?  Is that really what you're arguing here?

                          Think carefully about that.

                          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                          by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:55:06 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm saying if the only person you ever criticize is Clinton then I am free to make a conclusion about that.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:56:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you're saying he shouldn't cover CNMI (6+ / 0-)

                            since Clinton turned out to be the only Democrat implicated in it.  That is what you're saying.  None of us can investigate corruption in the CNMI, because it's unfair to other Democrats.  

                            By the way, this is the guy you're slamming:

                            total number of CNMI diaries: 117
                            total number of these diaries with the word "Clinton", as well: 33

                            33 diaries out of 117 even mention the name Clinton.  Go on and click on them, randomly.  Most of them only refer to Bill, and even then it's only because the diarist talks about CNMI history during the Clinton administration.  Narrow the search with "Hillary", and you get a whopping 7.

                            OBVIOUSLY this is just a beef against her.  The diarist went out of his way to find a beat that would eventually (in April 2006) find Sen. Clinton's name in there.  Right.

                            You are one sad case, you know?

                            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                            by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:08:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fine (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm sticking to my point.

                            When one is so eager to criticize Democrats fairly and honestly I expect to see other Democrats criticized than just one particular Democrat.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:10:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's just a simple question (0+ / 0-)

                            All it takes is one answer.

                            As documented from the 2004 election, Al Gore had holdings in Occidental Petroleum?

                            It's not that difficult to articulate an opinion on that.  I know what my opinion is about that!!!!

                            Until an opinion is rendered on that, I have a right to my opinion about the point of all this.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:15:04 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your arguments... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Got a Grip

                            become more ridiculous and less relevant with each post. Just stop embarrassing yourself already...

                            The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

                            by robroser on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:58:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That Gore attack was a Nader myth (4+ / 0-)

                            And yes, I did write about it on this site.

                            You'll hate my comment because I did not bash Gore, but then again, stock held in a company by Al Gore's mother that Al's children would inherit is not the same as the Tan Family or Occidental Petroleum donating money to him. IMHO

                            This article from Salon cleared the air on this fake scandal.

                            If you could prove to me that five members of the Tan Family did not donate to Hillary then the two cases might be similar. But they did give HRC the money and she has not done anything about it.

                            I say it is a problem. You say it is fine as long as anybody else is also taking questionable funds.

                            Finally, are you saying I can only earn the right to challenge Hillary on this donation if I also challenge every other elected official on any other possible tainted donation?

                            How does that make sense

                            Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                            by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:32:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So why did all those people (0+ / 0-)

                            show up to protest?

                            Yes.  If I can just see that one is capable of criticizing another Dem on the issue of money trails in Politics, that changes everything.

                            Money trails are everywhere in Politics.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:58:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because it is easy to rally people around a myth (0+ / 0-)

                            Thake the Tan money

                            There is enough truth, i.e. They donated the money to Hillary, to extrapolate the narrative into intentional wrong doing on the part of HRC.

                            We may both agree that would be wrong, but I am urging the Clinton campaign to be ready for it. You urge them to ignore it.

                            I think I am right. IMHO

                            Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                            by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:02:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Money in Politics (0+ / 0-)

                            http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                            I don't think that link matters.  I know Kerry will fight for the middle class.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:09:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really trying to see your Point of View (0+ / 0-)

                            But I can't buy it.  It's a cul de sac.

                            Just tell me this if you can't tell me anything else.

                            If a group at Exxon Mobile sent the DNC 10k do you think that would compromise Howard Dean's commitment to alternative fuels?

                            Don't answer any other question.

                            Just answer that question.  I realize it's a hypothetical question.  (Really it might not be, I wouldn't be surprised if they did!  Republican donors do this all the time!) It's an opinion question.  It doesn't mean I disrespect all your fine work.  It means you have an opinion on things and you're the expert here!

                            I just want to know your opinion on that!

                            Successfully answering that question with a straight answer will bring me light years closer to your point of view.  If you can answer that question, I will draft a letter myself to the Clinton Campaign asking them to write a check to the Tan family in the amount of 10k and mail it off.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:27:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            Exxon has many sins, but their corporate model was not built on a primary reliance on stolen labor.

                            If you look closely at any given $10,000 donated to any given candidate you may be able to find a problem. However, some donations cross a line. These donations would be found problematic to "any reasonable person".

                            The money for the Tan Family is like that, it will always be a problem. The hypothetical donation from Exxon isn't.

                            Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                            by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:12:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  'You ain't talking to me' (0+ / 0-)

                  or about me.

                  I saw one guy yesterday actually finally admit the Tickets received by Reid were wrong.

                   You trolled that dead fish across my path yesterday and I ignored it. I recommended the comment right after yours, that's a clue that I might have read it and properly ignored it.
                    If someone fell for your shell and pea game it wasn't me, who was it and which comment?
                    Link please. Thanks.

                  "never was so much progress blocked for so many by so few."

                  by KenBee on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:30:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Have you read this Diary of mine from months ago: (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KiaRioGrl79, KenBee, Got a Grip

              Here is the link. I believe it is the type of thing you said I have not written...

              The only issue that influenced more voters than corruption in the 2006 election may have been Iraq—and that war is a byproduct of the Culture of Corruption. Sometime a symptom of a disease is confused as the illness, but treatment must focus on the root cause.

              And the sickness in our National Politics is corruption.

              So, one might think that the Democrats running for the White House would be hip to the results of the 2006 election.

              One might expect that each and every one would be talking about Iraq, Corruption and then, the other issues.

              You might think that, but you would be wrong.

              For most of the Democrats running for President, it is as if the Corruption in our Government does not exist. Almost none of them talk about it.

              Since last fall, I have been paying attention and holding a Corruption Primary among the Democrats running to be Presidents. The results are disappointing.

              Only one of the Candidates leads with ethics and lobbying reform as a key issue. Some of the others touch on some aspect of the issue, while ignoring the fundamental need for widespread reform. Most, do not even mention lobbying reform, ethics reform or corruption.

              The results are even worse if you drill deeper into the Abramoff scandal.

              All the Candidates are silent on the abuse on the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI) and legislation to end it. Virtually all of them are silent on Jack Abramoff beyond the occasional punch line.

              If the need for reform of lobbying, ethics, fundraising and the like are mentioned, it is usually in an unanswered Diary or comment to a Campaign blog.

              I am under whelmed.

              I want more. Hell, I demand more before I will get excited.

              I would love to see one of the Candidates elevate the abuse on the CNMI to a campaign issue. I would love to see one of them talk about the current "cleansing" of long-time guest workers by the Pirates of Saipan in anticipation of reform. I would love to see a candidate speak out against this human rights abuse on US soil. I would love to see them speak out for justice and point to the Guest Worker system of the CNMI as a cautionary tale as the Mainland considers a "guest worker" program. I would love this, but it is not going to happen.

              I would love to see the Democratic candidates zero in on how the Culture of Corruption is stealing land, resources and rights from Native Americans. I would love to hear a Candidate speak out about the crimes and prejudices directed towards the First inhabitants of this continent. I would love it, but it is not going to happen.

              There are many issues I would like them to talk about, but I know they won’t. [snip]

              When I say that they are ignoring the corruption/reform issue, I hope that the supporters of this or that Candidate will comment on how their guy or gal is really one of the good ones. I hope that I’ve just missed their dedication to the issue. Perhaps that will be the case.

              Maybe they do support reform, but from a survey of the Candidate’s Web sites it would be impossible to tell. Whatever their stand is, it is hidden.

              If your Candidate supports reform, it would be nice if they would talk about it. It would be nice if they would put the issue front and center. In 2006 corruption was a tipping point issue. We ignore that at our peril.

              There was more in that Diary. Then their were many comments and others Diaries over the years taking other Democrats to task as well. You can look for them if you wish.

              To claim that I only go after HRC is to acknowledge you have never paid attention to anything I've written until I linked "abramoff" and "Clinton" in the title of a Diary.

              That's fine.

              We have a disagreement on strategy.

              I think it is fair game and important to critique our Candidates. You think we should keep silent if a problem is found.

              You also seem to think that all donations are equivalent. That all money in politics is the same. I disagree.

              Money connected to human trafficking and modern slavery is different than boxing tickets.

              We disagree on tactics, but not the goal.

              Cheers

              Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

              by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:05:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Why don't YOU do something constructive and (13+ / 0-)

      get your candidate to rectify this before she does herself irreparable damage?  dengre didn't make this problem, Hillary did.  She can fix it.  You can help her.  But this raving you do because somebody said something that didn't sing her praises is ridiculous.  You do no one any good by continuing it.  Especially you.

      NION
      Liberty and Justice for All

      by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:15:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  great points in diary (14+ / 0-)

    if we are nothing but yes voices to dems and do not challenge them to work out the kinks now, then they may well lose in election. moreover, how hypocritical to say that ok to criticize bush but not our own party. heck, when did free speech become limited to opposing candidates.

    •  I think the problem is when he makes shit up (5+ / 13-)

      and cloaks it as a fictional news story. Are you proposing that we should tell all the lies about our canddiates the press might dream up?

      •  That psuedo "news story" he wrote was ludicrous (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caldonia, Pozzo, lorelynn, Edgar08, KnowVox

        It was one of the most classless anti-Hillary rants I've read on this site.  

        Support the Clinton Climate Initiative http://www.clintonfoundation.org

        by Berkeley Vox on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:39:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You are out of control on this (15+ / 0-)

        and lost in some loop playing in your head, not responding to the diary.

        What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

        by melvin on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:07:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? so there was no fictional news story (0+ / 0-)

          in his original post which totally misrepresented historical reality?

          There either was or there wasn't. If there was a fictional news story, then he makes shit up about Democratic candidates.

          •  Really (0+ / 0-)

            And it seems you have been for awhile now.

            You did the same thing the other day in a diary, forgetting who you were responding too, forgetting who wrote the diary, and then finally in your frustration committing ratings abuse.

            I told you then and I repeat it now: you're doing a serious disservice to your candidate and if you continue in this unresponsible fashion you will make her already tenuous netroots support even worse.

            Is that what your really want?

            I Love the Smell of Impeachment in the Morning (noon and night)

            by BentLiberal on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 01:36:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How can you reasonably object (9+ / 0-)

        to someone speaking about how the MSM may frame an action taken by a candidate??

        Has Hillary cleansed herself of that donation?? Have you contacted her campaign and requested it? Or are you still ad nauseum attacking someone for pointing out what other individuals may observe?

      •  I think your problem is that you don't know (16+ / 0-)

        how to take the truth and work with to make a difference.  If I have a choice between believing someone dedicated and thorough like dengre and the choice of listening to someone's shrill voice because they don't like to hear something that needs to be said, guess which one I'm going to choose?  You have no right to accuse anyone of lying unless you're willing to go do the heavy legwork involved in proving it.  

        You obviously have some sort of fixation on Mrs. Clinton and her purity.  Good for you.  Now go out and make sure she's as pure as you think she is.  If she isn't then help her fix the problem.  But stop being abusive to someone whose reputation on this site and elsewhere is beyond dispute.

        NION
        Liberty and Justice for All

        by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:10:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Great - tell us what the truth is. (0+ / 0-)

          From Dengre's diary the truth is that a legal donation was made and nothing more. No quid pro quo. No appearance of impropriety. Nothing. and yet, he conflates taht into a news story that Clinton is accepting money from Abramoff. No evidence Abramoff directed the donation. No evidence of letters being written on behalf of the sweatshop owners - nothing.

          The truth of the matter is there is nothing wrong with donation. Dengre can't find a single bit of truth with which to damn Clinton so he creates a fictional news story to do so.

          •  Are you being purposefully obtuse, or what? (0+ / 0-)

            We can all see that you're rabidly pro-Clinton.  If you want to do something that will be beneficial, then contact Mrs. Clinton and ask her about this.  Suggest that she discuss this issue now, and to donate the money to a charity that will benefit the people of CNMI, thus removing the odor of impropriety from this.

            If a candidate getting a $400 haircut is enough to send the MSM into a tasmanian devil-like spin during the early days of a primary run, what do you think a $10,000 donation from one of the most corrupt and evil families ever to walk the face of the earth will do when dragged out into the light of day for all to see in a presidential election?  

            Really, get hold of yourself here and look past the trees at the damned forest.  If you want to see your candidate come off smelling like roses, which you've left no doubt that you do, then help her scrape the shit off of her shoe instead of screeching at a diarist whose dedication to the issue of corruption of our public officials by the Tan family is above reproach.....

            NION
            Liberty and Justice for All

            by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:34:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obviously, the MSM is going to do nothing (0+ / 0-)

              about - there's no reason to. There is nothing inappropriate here. You can't find anything inappropriate and neither can Dengre. if there was something wrong, he would have put it in his diary. instead, he was reduced to fictionalizing a press account because there is nothing inappropriate with the donation.

              Hillary votes against the interests of the sweatshop owners in CNMI. You do understand taht,right? And that's why the press isn't going to do anything. Because if they do, Hillary simply trumpets her record. End of story.

              her voting record and her rhetorical record destroy any hope of anyone turning this into anything other than innuendo. Notice that Dengre didn't bring up her voting record - right? That's because it blows his bullshit story all to hell.

              Don't fall for it.  This is an ignorant, hysterical Clinton smear without an ounce of integrity to it.

              •  I haven't fallen for anything. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ahianne

                I have no horse in this race, I haven't made a choice on who I will vote for when the primaries come up.  But I take issue, great issue, with what you accuse dengre of, and your distorted view of what he's saying.  To accuse someone of lying, as you've done repeatedly, to suggest that this is nothing but a smear campaign against your candidate, as you have done, is beyond the pale when it comes to someone with the documented record that dengre has.  I'm asking you to step away from this, take off your political preference glasses, and look at what he's saying here.  I repeat, for the umpteenth time, that if you really want to do something that will be advantageous to your candidate then to encourage her to remove any possibility of this coming back to haunt her by either returning the money or donating it to some cause that will help the people who are suffering in CNMI.  You are wrong, dead wrong, if you think this won't come back to haunt Mrs. Clinton.  It happens time and again.  I don't have time to list all the instances when something much less damning than this seemingly minor contribution has come back to cause major trouble for a Democratic candidate.

                So, either do something positive with this information or not, the choice is yours.  But stop attacking dengre.  He doesn't deserve it, and you're making an ass of yourself with your continued attacks.

                NION
                Liberty and Justice for All

                by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:32:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Why should she return it? (0+ / 0-)

                  Her votes more than validate her integrity on the issue. If the news media wants to make a big deal out of it, let them.

                  Now why don't you go do something constructive. Find a GOP candidate to smear. Or do something positive for whatever candidate you prefer.

                  •  Would you list the votes (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ahianne, Got a Grip

                    Really, I would like to see your list of the votes and actions she has taken against the Tan Family.

                    You say there are dozens. Show me what they are.

                    As a stickler for presenting absolute facts, I'm sure you have them at the ready.

                    Why, I bet you know more about this issue than I do.

                    I await your facts...

                    Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                    by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:26:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I said that as I understood there were 29 votes (0+ / 0-)

                      on issues that affect the CNMI. That number was from an article i was reading on line on the subject. I do know that she has spoken out about the abuses in CNMI and that legislation she sponsored was, of course, opposed by the business owners. You didn't see fit to include that information leading your more gullible readers to conclude that perhaps Hillary was ignoring the human indecencies transpiring there, or perhaps worse - complicit in them.

                      It's odd to me that you fancy yourself such an expert and yet you didn't know a bill that she sponsored would have raised wages for the CNMI. I was able to find that much out with just a few minutes of googling.

                      I think you need to fundamentally reassess your tactics here. If what you want is to clean up the abuses in the Commonwealth, you aren't going to accomplish by proposing phony news stories for the press to run with. Hopefully, you only discredit yourself when you engage in such behavior, but the worst case scenario is that you damage your cause as well.

                      •  On the contrary, I think dengre has used (0+ / 0-)

                        his tactics as best he can.  It is you who have are failing, you are failing to understand the nature of what dengre is saying and you're failing to act in a way that would be advantageous to your presidential pick.  You're only digging yourself a deeper hole by repeating ad nauseum.  Stop arguing and do something for your candidate.  This issue is out there, and it will come up again, and when it is going to do maximum damage.  Better to control it now than later.

                        As I've said, I have no horse in this race, I'll back whoever the nominee turns out to be, no matter what my first preference might have been.  But it matters to me greatly where they get their money and what they do with it.  So your insistence that it doesn't matter where the money came from and whether Mrs. Clinton returns it are falling on deaf ears here.  dengre has my backing, you do not.

                        Enough said....

                        NION
                        Liberty and Justice for All

                        by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:59:02 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Links, details, names of Bills, numbers, proof (0+ / 0-)

                        Those are the items you say you have, so I would like to see it.

                        She was a sponsor of S. 2, the Minimum Wage Bill that died this year in the Senate.

                        A version was resurrected and passed as part of the Iraq funding CR. If I remember things correctly, HRC voted against that measure. So did a lot of other Senators who supported the Minimum Wage. I've seen nothing to indicate that HRC was part of the effort to include the MW in that Bill.

                        More than that, the provisions for the CNMI and how a Minimum Wage would be applied to the Territory were watered down in the final Bill. (As Tan and the Pirates requested). It will not be fully implemented until 2016 and the local Government maintains wide latitude to exempt employers from paying the wage and/or firing their long-time employees if they would rather not pay them more money. The beauty of the CNMI system is that once an employee is fired they have 30 days to find a new job. If they can not find one, the CNMI Government will start deportation procedure 45 days after that. A low level ethnic purge is going on under the American Flag. The 110th Congress could end it. They are not.

                        HRC could easily lead on this issue. She is not. She is not working against the interests of the Tan Family. I wish she would.

                        Your righteous ignorance of the issues impacting the CNMI and human trafficking is, quite frankly, astounding.

                        You have almost no idea what you are talking about.

                        I am trying to be nice, but the more you rant the harder it becomes. The more you claim that there is no problem with money from the Tan Family, the more I am convinced that I must keep focusing on the donation and why it is a bad thing.

                        It is, but your bubble will not accept any challenging facts.

                        You call me a liar, etc., etc. and you justify your position with exaggerations, falsehoods and uninformed rage.

                        Doesn't your impressively rude style ever wear you down. How in the world do you think this helps your cause.

                        Auto-anger on 24/7 auto-pilot attack mode is crazy. IMHO.

                        Chill out.

                        Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                        by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:50:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And yet Obama didn't either. Why don't you make (0+ / 0-)

                          up scurrilous stories about him?  he could have led on the issue in the senate and yet you say nothing about his failures. I wonder why that could be? You seem to have a fixation on only one candidate that you think is worthy of repeating Byron York's rightwing talking points about.

                          Hillary, to satsify you, has to rise to a standard that you propose for no one else and if she doesn't, you reserve the right to cook up phony news presses that claim sweatshop owners gave money to her presidential campaign. that makes you a petulant bully - Hillary does what you want, or you tell lies about her.

                          Not very highminded. Simple thuggery. You've been busted.

                          •  Every instinct in me tells me (0+ / 0-)

                            to let it go, but I must confess I am fascinated by your obtuseness. It's like a puzzle to figure out what magical combination of words will make you understand a concept that is remarkably simple.

                            1. Dengre writes about the CNMI and the slavery that has been allowed to exist there. HRC took money from the people perpetrating these crimes. That's how she ended up on his blog. Mike Gravel, for example, hasn't taken money from the Tan family. If dengre were to publish a post about Gravel's relationship to the issue, that would be a piece that might legitimately invite scrutiny of his motives from a fervent Gravel supporter.
                            1. Taking money from a group that exploits people in unspeakable ways poses a political problem for HRC. Ask yourself if she would have returned the money if it came from the KKK or NAMBLA. Of course, she would have. Any candidate with a prayer of winning the Democratic nomination would return NAMBLA money because the optics of taking it are terrible. That you don't think accepting the money reveals any impropriety has no bearing on the fact that it could easily become a campaign issue. Why take that kind of risk for a lousy $10K?
                            1. Dengre has identified that this problem exists for HRC and has proposed a simple way for her to not only eliminate it, but make it a golden opportunity to show real leadership on an important issue. Most Democratic candidates look for issues that will differentiate them from the others, while getting support from a wide group of people with little backlash. What could be a better issue for this than ending slavery, forced abortions, forced prostitution, rape and the destruction of families on U.S. soil?

                            You came across this blog, knowing nothing about dengre's work on this issue, saw something you didn't like written about your candidate, and started assigning motives that weren't there. You missed the point entirely. Dengre was offering a way for her to be a hero. It will cost her nothing more than $10K and, at the end of the day, she would have essentially freed slaves on U.S. soil. The last person to do that has a memorial in Washington D.C. and appears on our coins and paper money.

                            You are so rabidly supporting her, you can't even figure out this is a gift. You might as well scream at the doctor who administers her flu shot for injecting germs in her.

                          •  Haha! Thank you making my point, Dover Bitch. (0+ / 0-)

                            The Tans no longer run sweatshops. Dengre cloaks that very carefully because that's one more thing that blows his argument apart. Hillary sponsored legislation that the sweatshop owners oppose - that's another thing he didn't tell you. The point of his diary was to fool people like you into believing that hillary took money from people who "exploit people in unspeakable ways"  - as you claim she did in your post.

                            You got fooled. Dengre's a liar. Thank you for the validation.

                            As for the Tans, they paid their $10m fine (won during the Clinton admin) and moved on to industries that wouldn't get them sued. He presents no evidence of them currently breaking laws or engaging in inhuman behavior.

                            According to Dengre:

                            The focus of the Tan Family was never just the economic system of the CNMI—that was (and is) small potatoes for the Family. They used it as a stepping stone and now that it is used up, they have very little use for it at all. They have closed most of their garment factories there, shut down their poker machines and moved to maintain those business, like Tourism, that support their new "clean" image. The big focus now is on tourism from China. The Tan Family and their PRC partners get a piece of the action from every flight between China and the CNMI.

                            BTW, he got this crap from Byron York. I didn't think ole Byron was your cup of tea.

                          •  And, btw, that's not to say they aren't scum.... (0+ / 0-)

                            but that there has been no evidence that I can find of them currently engaging in sweatshop conditions. They have paid a lot of fines over the years and have expanded in a lot of different directions.

                            I just find Dengre's hypocrisy really revolting. it doesn't matter if Obama or Dodd, or Biden - all of whom could lead on the legislation meet with Wendy - only Hillary. Or Edwards - it's certainly a natural extension of the Edwards campaign (and I love John Edwards and what he stands for). No, only Hillary needs to do these things. Otherwise, apparently, cleaning up the CNMI doesn't matter.

                            Dengre's pretty stinky alright.

                            Oh, here's the Byron York article he ripped off for you enjoyment:
                            http://thehill.com/...

                          •  You are so wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                            I could go chapter and verse.

                            You lie, lie and lie to make your case. It is very clear that you can not read and comprehend. Your ignorance is beyond all belief.

                            The Tan Family is heavily involved in "sweatshops". The labor they have stolen over the last 25 years is the root of their fortune.

                            It was the DOL under Bush the Elder who sued the Tans. NOT the Clintons. Hillary met Willie Tan at the fund raiser on Guam when he gave the DNC $17,500. Should I post about that as well. There are more details that could be added. If I can find them any good oppo researcher can.

                            Do you really think attacking me is going to make this go away?

                            The money is tainted and it is in her pocket. She has not taken any action to end the abuse (every Democrat supported the minimum wage). She has been silent. So what is her stand.

                            I could make the case the money bought silence, but I have not. I have not suggested that HRC has or has not done anything because of the money. It has not been part of my argument.

                            I've only made the case that the money is tainted. IT IS. That the Tan Family donated the money to HRC. THEY DID. And that she has done nothing about it. ALSO TRUE.

                            Your are a very silly and ill-informed advocate.

                            Every time you post, you lose another voter for HRC.

                            Great job.

                            Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                            by dengre on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 10:59:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And yet you present no evidence of lying, (0+ / 0-)

                            just like you present no evidence of Hillary doing anything unethical. You're all innuendo and you got busted quite publicly.  So why didn't you include information that the Clinton administration spent the 90s trying to find ways to regulate what was transpiring in the Marianas and that they were blocked by Senate Republicans? Boy, one more fly in your little anti-Clinton ointment, huh?

                            And you conflate - that's the problem. Every Dem voted for the minimum wage bill? Great. Hillary is one of the original sponsors. If she's in their pocket, that wouldn't be the case and you don't want people to know that. Kinda like LBJ taking a contribution from a former KKK member and signing Civil Rights Legislation. There is no there there for you or the press to object to.

                            It's only you and Byron York who find it remarkable that an apparently reformed family is contributing to senatorial campaigns - and, of course, gullible peeps like Dover Bitch who thought that the Tans were currently exploiting workers and engaging in the slave trade as so directly implied by your diary.

                            The fact of the matter is that they got sued repeatedly for labor violations, cleaned up their act at least sufficiently to get OSHA and other US regulatory agencies off their back and moved out of the industry where they had trouble abiding by the law. As you yourself noted, they now focus on tourism, and I have yet to see any accusations of human rights abuses or slave trade on their behalf in their other industries - that is a fact. .

                            Hillary is as clean as a whistle on this. You're a guy who picked up talking points from Byron York (lie down with dogs, get up with fleas) and implied heavily that Hillary was receiving money from people who currently run sweatshops - a charge that you know to be thoroughly false.

                            I love your last paragraph - me objecting to you making shit up about Hillary Clinton means Clinton gets less votes. Oh yeah - that makes sense. Gee, John Kerry, don't call those SBVT our on their lies because people might not vote for you. Yeah - that worked real well. Uh huh.

                            Only pathological liars or people who are seriously morally impaired would base a decision to vote or not vote for someone on the fact that I objected to you making really scurrilous claims about Hillary online.

                            You got busted lying. Just don't make shit up about any Demoratic candidate and you'll be fine.

                            Everytime you lie, you make one more person skeptical of your cause. Great job. The Marianas are fucked up and your lies help make it harder to clean up.

                            If I have made any statement that you feel is a lie, quote me directly and in context now and I'll answer to it.

                          •  Not only that, it's a repeatable pattern (0+ / 0-)

                            that the commenter has done in other diaries.

                            It's reflecting very poorly on the commenters candidate, HRC.

                            I Love the Smell of Impeachment in the Morning (noon and night)

                            by BentLiberal on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 01:40:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dengre is implying that the Tans are currently (0+ / 0-)

                            running sweatshops and engaging in slave trade - amd people are fallimg for the smear as Dover Bitch's curremt temse post proves.

                            As it states in his diary, they have cleaned up and moved on. They may still be scum but they aren't engaging in human rights violatioms. He's hidimg that from you because if you kmow they have cleamed up, his diary is becomes just ome more amti-Climtom smear job orchestrated by the right with as much validity as the rest of the amti-Climtom smear jobs we observed over the 90s.

                            Sorry - I just had a key die om my laptop.

                          •  I took a chance (0+ / 0-)

                            that you were something other than a troll. It was a long shot, so I'm not disappointed. In a year or so, I'll sacrifice another five minutes in vain on some other troll. Hats off to you.

                            Defend the Tan family until the rest of the keys on your computer fall off. If you can't see the optics of this are horrible for your candidate, you are blind.

                          •  I'm defending a Democratic candidate against a (0+ / 0-)

                            smear. You seem to have a problem with that. You are siding with Bryon York. I'm not. You're conflating defending Hillary with defending the Tams. Not me.

                            Clearly, I'm not the troll here. I'm not the one putting out false information, conflating and obfuscating. Dengre is and you apparently don't mind him ripping off Byron York to attack a candidate who has sponsored the kind of legislation (not just "voted for" as Dengre mislead earlier about) the CNMI needs and whose husband's admin spent the 90s trying hard to regulate the abuses Dengre claims he wants to see curbed. The only bad optics here are for Dengre.

                            So bizarre that defending a Democratic candidate against flat out lies results in the kind of tirades we've witnessed here.

                          •  I never said they cleaned up (0+ / 0-)

                            They have not. All I said is that they moved the bulk of their sweatshops off the CNMI. And by the way, sweatshops are not the worse thing they do.

                            If you could read through the filter of your bubble world you might have understood that.

                            Troll is way too nice of a description for you. At your absolute value you are exactly the same as the Bushies. You are a drone waiting to be filled with a political ideology to spout. Once filled you encase yourself in a bubble of protectve hype, myths and talking points. Then you move on to auto-attack any information that challenges your bubble of manufactured reality. If HRC said to wear your underwear on your head, you would. You are both sad and silly.

                            I thought there might be a way to have a dscussion with you, but your mind is made up -- that is to say it does not exist.

                            DB is correct.

                            I am done with you.

                            Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                            by dengre on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 11:11:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Get. Off. It. (5+ / 0-)

        You have a history of dragging out these fights to totally unreasonable extents. You're doing it again. Let it go.

        And those who are uprating - are you sure you want to back lorelynn's penchant for feuding? She is behaving badly and you are egging her on.

        Who you gonna call?

        by Ahianne on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:38:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On my short list (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          re Kos' recent diary with the 'warning' (you kids pipe down back there, don't make me come back there!)....tho I don't expect anything from that ...except people referring to it, heh.
            The same relentlessness 'works' to spam candidate diaries, and I/P diaries..I would have to be paid or have a trust fund to have that much time, yuck.
             It's certainly disruptive.

          "never was so much progress blocked for so many by so few."

          by KenBee on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:50:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  If there is (4+ / 0-)

    one issue we can all agree on it's pie.  Enjoy Yearly Kos!

  •  Stop posting crappy diaries about Hillary. It's (6+ / 0-)

    not allowed with any of the other candidates so lay off.  Apparently, 9% of the community supports her, so really find a new hobby.  Dissing Hillary on this site is like picking on a nerd.

  •  Recommended again (12+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately I've only had time to do a relatively quick skim of your past few diaries -- they're so crammed packed with good information on an important subject.

    I'll have to study up on this after I get back from YearlyKos to see if I can get Reps George Miller, JerryMcNerney, and Ellen Tauscher all talking about these issues at the Democratic BBQ the end of August.

    I look forward to meeting you in Chicago. You've been doing incredible work on this.

  •  stop repeating yourself... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia, masslib, KnowVox, Berkeley Vox

    we got it the first time. Ughhh.

    "Success for a politician is 50% + 1, You don't have to have everybody on board." Dick Cheney admitting he is Unsuccessful on Larry King.

    by Chamonix on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:15:11 AM PDT

  •  "Concern Troll" hit piece against Hillary (9+ / 2-)

    Typical right-wing style hit job against the Clintons.  There are no facts whatsoever establishing any wrongdoing on Hillary Clinton's part, so you resort to innuendo.  

    Support the Clinton Climate Initiative http://www.clintonfoundation.org

    by Berkeley Vox on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:33:39 AM PDT

    •  Classy response to a diary (11+ / 0-)

      that includes this:

      That said it is important to be civil. To remember we are on the same side. Folks who disagree with me should be able to say so without fear of a TR.

      And you TR him for that?  

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:59:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's not a troll.... (7+ / 0-)

      He is pointing out an area of concern regarding Hillary's campaign. If you can't address the issue just say so, but don't attack the messenger.

    •  I'm going to do something I never do, because (12+ / 0-)

      in almost every instance it is without merit.  But in this case it is.  Your UID shows me that you haven't been here very long at all. dengre's UID shows me that he's been here a very long time.  Moreover, I have read an overwhelming amount of evidence that dengre has written on the subject of CNMI and the abuses that have taken place there, and done with a wink and a nod from our representatives, who have lined their pockets with money that insured the abuse would continue.

      You have no standing to say such things about dengre on this issue.  He is not a troll, never was, never will be.  The issue at hand has zero to do with your presidential pick and everything to do with the issue of the abuse of a forgotten people.  The fact that Mrs. Clinton's name has come up in this is sad, but it is something that could be corrected.  So stop talking out of your ass about something you obviously know nothing about and take your concerns to Mrs. Clinton.  That is where the problem for you lies, not with anything dengre has said, ever.

      NION
      Liberty and Justice for All

      by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:28:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with the exception of... (7+ / 0-)

        the UID issue. God save me from individuals who believe that your "number" here on DKos is somehow relevant to the value of your political integrity.

        Trust me...I've seen a few of those low "numbers" who couldn't inspire my spleen let alone my brain.

        Other than that section...I think your comments are golden :)

        •  That is why I bring it up with the caveat that it (9+ / 0-)

          is, almost without exception, meaningless.  In this instance I think it is because dengre has been here a long time with a long history of diligence to his cause, a willingness to do the hard work involved in research for such a complex problem, and unimpeachable integrity.  Berkeley Vox has been here a very limited time, and it is apparent that he/she hasn't taken the time to read the volumes of informative research that dengre has done on this subject, and therefore is only seeing this through the myopic glasses of political interest.  In this instance, UID means evidence of experience that can be documented just by reading the vast number of diaries that dengre has written on the subject.  And that's really all it means.

          I totally agree with you otherwise.  I know of several who have been here a long time, very low UID's, that are total jackasses, abusive and self-serving.  I wouldn't give them the time of day, however long they've been here or however much they like to throw their weight around.  dengre isn't one of those.  Thank God.

          NION
          Liberty and Justice for All

          by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:48:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Except when it's a brand new user (4+ / 0-)

          Instead of simply troll rating them, they deserve the patience to explain to them that they're wrong, the history they've missed, and so on.  Including that maybe they ought to learning a little of the history before spouting off against someone like dengre.  Mostly it reflects badly on them, because it shows they are clueless and don't give a damn that they are so.

          Yikes!  I have a plane to catch.  Must go!!!

          "Every single Democratic candidate is immeasurably better than what we have in the White House now." - Sen. Joe Biden paraphrased

          by Land of Enchantment on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:01:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is, I think, what I did here. (0+ / 0-)

            I've used the UID thingie with the huge caveat that it is almost entirely meaningless.  I believe this is the one and only time I've ever mentioned it.  I've seen dozens of hair-pulling episodes where UID was brought up to flog one another, and it's just stupid.  But in this instance it is a way to get the attention of someone who is obviously unaware of the long and stellar history of one of the most dedicated diarists I've ever had the pleasure to read.

            Perhaps it wasn't the best analogy, but I was heading to bed and angry at the unreasoned responses to dengre's fine work.  Again.  So let's pretend that I took this guy gently by the hand and led him to the archives promised land.  I promise to never bring it up again, and I mean that.  As I've stated repeatedly, it's a worthless statistic.  I'm not sure why it's magically displayed for everyone to see, anyway.  It's user info, IMHO.

            NION
            Liberty and Justice for All

            by Got a Grip on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:13:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I recommend you (8+ / 0-)

      because I do not believe you should get a TR just because I made you angry.

      I would have preferred that you did not TR me, but so it goes.

      This reaction of defenders of Candidates is simply interesting. If, by pointing a flaw, I must be condemned, then I will have to get use to it. Because I will have to keep pointing out the fact that this donation is out there until it is dealt with.

      Comments like yours stiffen my resolve to bring it up over and over again.

      Thanks for the encouragement to keep talking about this.

      Cheers

      Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

      by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:41:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Considering that dengre himself recced this (0+ / 0-)

      I fail to see why it was TR'd.

      Although it isn't very nice, certainly.

      Joe Lieberman likes to be called an "Independent Democrat". I like being called a "sexual dynamo".

      by Arjun Jaikumar on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 08:41:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time to face the facts (14+ / 0-)

    For those of you worried the GOP might discover this campaign issue by reading this diary... Guess what? Byron York wrote about this in the National Review in March 2006. They already know about it. You are kidding yourselves if you think the best way to help your party is to bury your head in the sand and hope nobody remembers. That's not how the Republicans operate.

    Clinton wants to be the leader of the nation. Dengre has just challenged her to show some leadership on an issue that ought to be a no-brainer for any woman in America. A really smart Democrat would understand that ending forced abortions on U.S. soil is a winner for any constituency (other than the slave-owning lobby).

    The ball is in Clinton's court. It has been there, as I mentioned, for quite some time. Dengre has provided her a simple way to simultaneously do the right thing and solve her political problem. If she doesn't act on it, that's a reflection of her, not dengre.

    The mistreatment of these workers is a reflection of all of us, which is why we must put an end to it. I applaud dengre for his dedication and urge everyone here to help convince the House to open their ears and stop the abuse.

    •  Byron York and this Author (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Governor McCheese

      Seem to agree that the argument is a legitimate one.

      "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

      by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:01:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Considering the amounts of money spent (4+ / 0-)

      on advertising, doing what dengre suggest would cost so little for the benefits for leading on issues that needs it as these issues do.
        Lots of bang for the buck here.
       

      "never was so much progress blocked for so many by so few."

      by KenBee on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:10:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a Fair Argument (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Governor McCheese

        By the same Argument given the amount of PR to be gained here, I see no reason why Sen. Reid didn't write a check to the Indian Casinos in the sum total of the Boxing Tickets he's received.

        I would also suggest that if Fat Bastard and his cronies at Exxon Mobile ever donates 50k to the DNC that Howard Dean understand that the PR is more valuable than opening up a field office in a small town in a red state.

        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:24:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Clinton's likely to spend more ... (4+ / 0-)

        ...on hosting a party at YK than this would cost her.  And, IMHO, she'd earn more points with the DK community by repudiating the donation, and making a $10k donation to the appropriate charity.

        Though she could easily afford both.  I just assume she'll be throwing a party.  Because Obama almost has to, since Chicago's his hometown.  And if he does, then she has to keep up with the Jones's, and do the same.

        "Every single Democratic candidate is immeasurably better than what we have in the White House now." - Sen. Joe Biden paraphrased

        by Land of Enchantment on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:09:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You have Failed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KnowVox, Governor McCheese

    To prove any link between Clinton and sweatshops other than the receipt of checks in the sum total of, wait, is everyone ready, $10,000.

    It would, first of all, add to your credibility if you would write a Diary telling Sen. Harry Reid not to accept anymore Boxing Tickets, and to donate/return the value of the Boxing Tickets he has received in the past to the folks who gave them to him, or to a charity.

    Your argument here is based on what Republicans can use against Democrats.  When republicans used this line of attack on Sen. Harry Reid, I defended Sen. Harry Reid.  I said there's no relationship between Abramoff and Sen. Harry Reid proven by the exchange of Boxing Tickets from one Indian Casino to Sen. Harry Reid.

    I made that argument cause it was true.  I rely on facts to build my cases for or against poeple.  Not innuendo, and no one ever made the case that there was a relationship between Abramoff and Reid that was even remotely convincing.  It was breathlessly muttered on the sets of Fox News.

    John McCain went out and said, See.  There's no difference between those Boxing Tickets, and the level of corruption that existed between Republicans and Abramoff.

    Now I am sorry.  I have been told that you have earned a certain amount of respect on this site on this issue.  My guess is, 2 and a half years ago, when this story first broke it was quite the excuse to engage in what I would call is a lot of Clinton Bashing.

    I don't know about anyone else on this site, but when people, Republicans or anyone else for that matter try to impugn a Democrat on this kind of issue

    WITHOUT PROOF

    I will vociferously defend that Democrat.

    What I said earlier still applies:

    This Diary legitimizes ... Republicans.  This Diary lives in fear of those attacks.  This Diary imagines an American Public that is too stupid to see the difference between DeLay and Clinton and puts it upon Clinton to accomodate that stupidity by returning the money.

    I don't ever see the point in Troll Rating people because the fine line between an opinion being expressed and slander is always in play.  I prefer to let that play out in the dialog.

    The Clinton = Abramamof meme is stretching that out.

    I would urge that the Diarist here makes is Crystal Clear in an update that he is not trying to build a case that there is any relationship between Clinton and the Tan's other than the receipt of checks in the sum total of $10,000 two and half years ago during her run for the Senate.

    I would urge that the Author make it Crystal Clear that this issue is simply an expression of the kinds of hoops Democrats should be willing to jump through to avoid attacks by Right Wing Idiots.

    And then everyone else can decide then if the whole thing here isn't just a Giant and Embarrassing Display of Concern Trolling!

    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:00:27 AM PDT

    •  Ugh. (5+ / 0-)

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:31:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No Proof (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KnowVox

        No Connection established.

        Can you tell the difference between DeLay's relationship with the Tan's and Clinton's?

        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:34:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you ignoring what I wrote? (6+ / 0-)

          This gets really exhausting, you know.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:36:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a nice Testimony (0+ / 0-)

            You like the Author.  That's fine.  We can disagree on that.

            I am asking you a question:

            Can you tell the difference between DeLay's relationship with the Tan's and Clinton's?

            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:37:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And I'm answering you (6+ / 0-)

              that it does. not. matter.

              Dirty money is dirty money.  The goal here is to get it out of Congress, regardless of who's taking it, regardless of why that person is taking it.  You can dodge that point all you want, but it doesn't change this fundamental concern.

              And by the way, the diarist was crystal clear that the issue is Clinton's having taken the money, not anything else.  

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:40:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think it does matter (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Governor McCheese

                Because you will never get dirty money out of politics as long as some evil bastard somewhere can write a check for a thousand bucks and send it off to a politician.

                So what matters to me is that people can tell the difference between that and another Politician actually travelling there to party the evil fucker and leaving with the heavy suitcase.

                Indeed, I believe our democracy depends on people being able to make such distinctions.

                It's sad that you don't think it matters.

                "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:42:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I'd also add (5+ / 0-)

              that you're constructing a nice strawman here:

              You have Failed (0 / 0)

              To prove any link between Clinton and sweatshops other than the receipt of checks in the sum total of, wait, is everyone ready, $10,000.

              Actually, no.  That's the only contention the diarist made in the first place.  He didn't "fail" to do anything he didn't set out to do.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:42:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Cool (0+ / 0-)

                I'm just making sure everyone understands that no proof has been provided whatsoever.

                We can guess at the author's intentions all day.

                "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:43:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're nuts. (7+ / 0-)

                  This author has been trailing the CNMI money for years (which is why I linked to that comment above).  That's his beat.  He's under no obligation to write, apropos of nothing apart from your demands, diaries about Harry Reid.  The only reason Clinton has come up - and you can search his diaries if you have a shred of intellectual honesty in you - is because her campaign fund has crossed into his beat.

                  Defending your candidate is a fine and noble thing (especially on this site, where Sen. Clinton doesn't get much respect).  But defending your candidate to the point that you ignore what's actually in front of you... well, that's something else entirely.

                  Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                  by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:46:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What's in front of me (0+ / 0-)

                    Is that five very bad people wrote checks for 1,000 bucks and sent them off to the Clinton Senate campaign two years ago, and some guy on the Internet thinks that means something.

                    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:49:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  And you're forgetting (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Got a Grip

                the other point I made.

                If the author isn't trying to do that, and all he's doing is worrying about what Byron York will say, then I made my point:  People can decide for themselves if that's Concern Trolling or not.

                "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:45:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And if you think (6+ / 0-)

                  that was the diarist's main point, then you've sorely missed the boat.  Check out the >100 diaries he's written on the CNMI issue.  

                  Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                  by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:49:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Two Points (0+ / 0-)

                    It's either there's a connection, in which case No Proof Whatsoever has been provided.

                    Or it's Republicans can attack us with it.

                    Is there a third point?

                    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:51:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Now you're being intentionally obtuse. (6+ / 0-)

                      This is my last comment unless you have something new to offer.  For the thousandth time:

                      The issue is getting their money out of Congress.  Period.  

                      Understand?  That's why we campaign against Republicans who take it, and that's why we ask the single Democrat taking it to give it back.  Is that so hard to understand?

                      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                      by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:54:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Fair Enough (0+ / 0-)

                        But wait.  That money didn't go to Congress, now did it?

                        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:56:31 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  And I'll repeat another Point (0+ / 0-)

                        Because I've never seen the Author write passionately about getting Comp Tickets out of Congress, I'll assume this passion of his is more focussed on Clinton than anyone else.

                        "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                        by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:01:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'll assume... (6+ / 0-)

                          This author has been trailing the CNMI money for years (which is why I linked to that comment above).  That's his beat.  He's under no obligation to write, apropos of nothing apart from your demands, diaries about Harry Reid.  The only reason Clinton has come up - and you can search his diaries if you have a shred of intellectual honesty in you - is because her campaign fund has crossed into his beat.

                          I'll assume you don't have that shred after all.

                          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                          by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:03:13 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  C'mon man (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Governor McCheese

                            You know Comp Tickets is a form of currency.

                            I would suggest his "beat" is not very comprehensive if all it covers is tendered cash.

                            "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                            by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:06:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bingo (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Edgar08

                            For example, John Rowland, former gov of CT went to prison for accpeting, not cash, but things like free installation for a hot tub. Superbowl tickets, for example,  are probably better than cash, since $100 in cash is just that. Tickets can be  scalped for way more than their face value.

  •  Furthermore (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Governor McCheese

    As I look over the legislation I, like the Author agree that there are good things and bad things about that legislation but the balance sheet dictates that passage of that legislation improves things.

    Therefore, I think it would behoove Senator Clinton to support that legislation.  And if not, to provide a very good explanation why not.

    But she should not support that legislation because of people on the Internet holding the Tan Money over her head.

    This is yet another problem I have had with these kinds of issues.

    If this Author could simply advocate for the legislation that is listed above without subverting that own argument with innuendo and Concern Trolling, then I can assure anyone who cares about this issue, I am recommending this Post without question.

    It looks like good legislation.

    Why not just argue on behalf of that legislation.  Why the need to drag a Democrat through the mud?

    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:11:51 AM PDT

  •  More on the Stupidity of All This (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KnowVox

    On Sunday, there was a protest at the Loews Hotel, the site of a bitter labour dispute between low-wage workers and management. The strikers chose this week for their rally because they wanted to draw attention to the fact that the CEO of Loews is a major contributor to Mr. Gore's campaign.

    Later that day, there was an anti-sweatshop rally at the Gap. "What is Gap chairman Donald Fisher's favorite hobby?" the flyers asked. "Buying politicians" was the answer offered. On Monday, the target was Mr. Gore's personal holdings in Occidental Petroleum, an oil company embroiled in a human-rights dispute with the U'wa Indians of Colombia.

    http://www.commondreams.org/...

    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:10:26 AM PDT

  •  And Lastly (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KnowVox, Governor McCheese

    Someone Please try to Explain to Dolores Huerta that Senator Clinton is somehow compromised on the issue of Women/Worker's Rights!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Because she seems to be under the impression that Senator Clinton is just fine on those issues cause she Endorsed Senator Clinton for President.

    Maybe not lastly.

    If I can find more examples of how people freak out unnecessarily over donations (like the one where the Loews CEO contributed to Gore above), I'll continue to provide them.

    "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:14:07 AM PDT

  •  With all due respect (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Edgar08, KnowVox

    As one who raised the issue of the contributiosn being attributed to the wrong election cycle, I was not "Confused". I understood full well that it was a faux (Fox?)journalism type of "story." That said, it doesn't make it any better.  Does this make it any better? I wonder how many people here  would defend a diary against Barak OBama, for example, if it ran a mock story about how the media might portray him as possibly having "Islamist" sympathies due to his having spent part of his formative years in Indonesia and having attended a Madrassa. We know now this isn't true, but such stories did hit the MSM. So it's not even a hypothetical. Yet I doubt many here would defend this. I understand what you were doing, I still don't think it was proper.

  •  wow (8+ / 0-)

    i missed the last pie fight diary.  

    personally I think Dengre is a hero.  He has dedicated several years of his life to correcting the horrible things being done in the Northern Mariannas with our money.  

    He had a big hand in helping take back republican seats in 2006.  Few did more.  Here in NY John Sweeney lost an election that no one thought he could lose.  One reason was John Sweeney is an asshole.  The second was the work Dengre did to connect him to this modern slavery.  

    Please do some research on what Dengre has done before further insulting him.  If you want to help Hillary Clinton, attacking people like Dengre ain't going to do it.

    Dengre, thanks again for your tireless efforts.

    •  Can Dengre criticize anyone else (0+ / 0-)

      Besides a Clinton?

      "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

      by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:04:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If anyone else is involved in the CNMI story, (0+ / 0-)

        sure.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:47:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Too Convenient (0+ / 0-)

          Politics is bigger than that.

          I bet he has other opinions.  I know I have opinions about a lot of other things.

          Just too convenient.  

          "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

          by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:50:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you are missing the point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pico

            he's been doing a ridiculous amount of work on this for years.  he singlehandedly connected a ton of Republicans to Willie Tan and Abramoff.  

            If Edwards or Obama is taking money from Willie Tan and his sick family, than I am quite certain Dengre would respond the same way.

            Have you read all his work?  Do you know what he has done?  

            Like I said above, and take it for what its worth because I am no hillary fan, but if you think you are going to win by attacking people like Dengre, you have already lost in my opinion.

            Do you even know what went on in the Mariannas?  

            I've said my piece.  I hope you and every hillary supporter continues to try to tear down good people like Dengre.  It only solidifies my opinion on Hillary and the people who support her.  

            •  OMG!! Check this out (0+ / 0-)

              http://www.opensecrets.org/...

              26% of all donations by Enron have gone to Democrats!!!

              What does that mean?

              Until the Democrats return 1.4 million of Donations from Enron back to Ken Lay, I'm not that bright and have to assume that Democrats are just as involved with the Enron Scandal as Republicans were.

              I am not disputing the good work done by Dengre.

              All his ducks are in a row.  It's very good work.

              I'm disputing the judgements he seems to make about Clinton unless she jumps through certain hoops.

              Democrats have received more than a million dollars from Enron.  Enron illegally destroyed the retirements of 10s of thousands of Americans.

              Democrats have received more than a million dollars from Exxon Mobile.  Probably guilty of price gouging and one of the biggest causes, if not the biggest cause of Global Warming.

              Now here's what I point out when confronted with those observations.  Enron and Exxon Mobile donated 3 to 10 times more money to Republicans and donate to Democrats to inoculate themselves against a more exlusive relationship with Republicans.

              If all of you think I'm wrong, great.

              I can handle that!

              "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

              by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:02:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                baxxor

                and 9 of the top 10 politicians who received money from the defense industry are democrats.   I agree with you that many democrats make me sick.

                He is making a point regarding his area of expertise.  

                Hillary doesn't need that ten grand.  If she returned it, it only makes her look good.  If she doesn't, it leaves her open to the "hillary took money from abramoff/tan, too" attack.   If you don't think that is a liability you shouldn't care about Dengre and what he has to say.  Move on.  Enlighten us on hillary's strengths (I'm still trying to figure out what those are).  

                The republicans Dengre worked so hard to expose are scum.  They supported modern slavery and people like Tom Delay bragged about it.   You want your candidate to take money from those people, that is ok with you, fine.  Like i said, it doesn't surprise me that hillary is taking the money and not apologizing.   She is proud to accept rupert murdoch's money and he is the worst of the worst.  the "war is good for the economy" type.

                people like dengre are not the problem.

                •  If Democrats returned (0+ / 0-)

                  1.4 million back to an account with Enron's name on it that would make them look good too, I guess.

                  "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                  by Edgar08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 07:04:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They two piles of money are not the same (0+ / 0-)

                    Arguing that there is a linkage is sloppy logic.

                    There are other donations that might fit, for example their s a Democratic lobbyist I've written about, William Oldaker. He is a past and current lobbyist to protect the abuse on the CNMI.

                    I've written that Democrats should have nothing to do with him and harshly criticised his involvement in a PAC to raise money for Freshmen Democratic Congressmen and Women. I urged all of them to sever their ties with the PAC unless Oldaker was removed.

                    Jerry McNerney of California forced the issue. Oldaker was removed.

                    Now money from Oldaker is not nearly as tied up with the Tan Family as were the funds used by Jack Abramoff, but there is a linkage. I would like folks to stay away from Oldaker, but he is a powerful Democratic lobbyist with ties to Senators Biden, Kennedy and others.

                    The culture of corruption has roots in both Parties. It has over-run the GOP, but some weeding needs to be done on the Democratic side as well.

                    Would you like to see me write more Diaries about that? I've already written quite a few.

                    What is your point is all this back and forth:

                    a. Money in politics does not matter, so stop talking about it.

                    b. The $10,000 donation from the Tan Family is insignificant so stop talking about it.

                    c. Unless one also raises questions about every other Democrat and money THEY received, you can not question a donation to HRC, so stop talking about it.
                    d. I'm having a delightful time playing Devil's Advocate, so please keep talking about it.

                    Cheers

                    Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                    by dengre on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 08:19:09 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  b. (0+ / 0-)

                      I see no difference between a guilty Enron exec firing off 10k to the DNC and the guilty Tan Family firing off 10k to the Clinton Campaign.

                      "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                      by Edgar08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 09:34:31 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh. And please don't stop talking about it (0+ / 0-)

                      As far as the issue is concerned

                      This interchange has opened my eyes to a lot of things and I have learned a lot about the heroism of people like Wendy Damoral.

                      But you can make that case without propping up the arguments made by people like Byron York.

                      "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

                      by Edgar08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 09:36:56 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Trust me (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Edgar08

                        I would rather spend my time talking about a guy like Jeff Flake and his corrupt links and actions to this scandal or Jack Kingston of Georgia or any of the rest.

                        It is hard when Democrats back into this corner of the scandal. The Tan money is a problem, but one that could easily be dealt with. I hope it will be.

                        I will keep talking about the issue. Thanks for the challenge and the civility.

                        Cheers

                        Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                        by dengre on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 11:18:19 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  There. Finally Found It (0+ / 0-)

          http://www.opensecrets.org/...

          There's no difference between the Democrats and Republicans as far as Big Oil is concerned is there?

          When are the Dems going to return the 1.8 million they've received from Exxon Mobile????!!!!

          Just Insane.  Just insane logic.  The whole fundamental assumption that 3k received by Clinton means anything at all is just insane.

          "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

          by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:06:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Insane is right. (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            Pozzo

            When you stick to your candidate's defense to the point that you're not even paying attention to what people are saying, you're done.  I could care less what you say anymore.  Fortunately not all of Sen. Clinton's supporters are such single-minded morons.

            Later.

            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

            by pico on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:29:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's a 10k donation from 2 years ago (0+ / 0-)

              Get over it.

              "There is no daylight between us on Iran." -- former ambassador Joseph Wilson on Sen. Hillary Clinton

              by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:33:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When I find another candidate (0+ / 0-)

                with a donation from a source tied to human trafficking, sweatshops and Jack Abramoff then I will write about it.

                Your two examples of Reid and Gore are not at all similar. The Gore story was total BS and had been busted as such years ago. Last I looked into it, the same was true with the Reid/boxing story.

                If you want to attack other Dems as a pseudo defense of HRC, go for it.

                I do not need to write about every misdeed, but I can write about the ones I come across.

                That has (and no doubt will) include other Democrats besides HRC.

                Republicans worship their Candidates.

                I know they are only human.

                As I said before, we are both working towards the same end game. Our tactics are different. I respect your take, but I feel now is the time to expose any and all weaknesses in our candidates.

                I expect them to become stronger for it.

                You seem to feel if the issue is a tainted donation that one should keep quiet about it and hope nobody notices.

                I think that approach is wrong, and so we disagree.

                We also disagree on your point that in order to critcise any Democrat, I must find a similar problem to challengne in every Democrat. That is an idea from the crazy store.

                Ah well, time to pack for YKos.

                Once again, thank you for the spirited back and forth.

                Cheers

                Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

                by dengre on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:45:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Oldaker & Biden, etc. (0+ / 0-)

    is in the works (it looks like).

    To return or not to return, that is the $10K question!

    Dengre, we've been in this community all along, dont let these transients distract you.

    Biba Dengre! Biba Dekada! Biba CNMI!

     

  •  This is a test (0+ / 0-)

    Here are the Federal Grants to CNMI, 2000 to 2006

    And here are Federal Contracts performed in the CNMI, 2000 to 2006

    OMB Watch has an amazing database. If you want to follow the money, dig in....

    Change the way America does business, visit Co-opAmerica.org

    by dengre on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 09:22:15 AM PDT

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