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I read KagroX's There is Something Fundamentally Wrong Here and I think the title speaks well to the reality of the situation over FISA but, more broadly, over how our legislative branch is and has been wounded by this  misAdministration.

This diary is not about the details of the legislation, nor is it about the checks and balances written into our Constitution.

This diary is about pain.

Every time Congress allows Mister Bush and his minions to force an issue and win, knowing it is wrong, knowing it is a betrayal of what Americans need, want and deserve, the pain that results is not one of politics or legislative agendas.

The pain of someone who is sick and not only cannot get medical care but is made to feel unworthy of it.

The pain of someone who has lost their home in a hurricane and not only gets no help to return home but is made to feel like a burden on society, someone who has nothing to offer.

The pain of someone who is told over and over again that their compassion for others and willingness to give a neighbor a hand up that they are weak, foolish, and will be crushed by those who rightfully hold the power.

This is a cumulative pain which has grown steadily over six years of rule by outright criminals, crooks, thieves.

For every person living in a "red state" who has been told too many times how idiotic these "libruls" are and to shut up about their silly notions of equality.

For every person who has to hear hateful rhetoric being spewed in the workplace and has no recourse, for they need their job to feed their family.

For every person who has been told they are worthless beause they are poor, that if they are poor it's their fault, if they are sick it's their fault.

This is a cumulative pain which has grown steadily over six years of rule by outright criminals, crooks, thieves.

And when Congress caves in to these criminals, it's like sticking a white hot poker in an already awful wound.  It's not rational, it's not about this or that law, about this or that agenda.  It's not about politics at all.

I was angry when the Iraq Supplemental bill passed, angered by the entire process, the one shout to justice followed by complete capitulation.

Now it is not anger I feel.  I feel only pain.  I don't think the folks who voted for the obscenity of the FISA bill understand the effects of their capitulation on regular Americans who may not even read about this, may not even know about the bill itself, but who have been suffering for so long under this gang of crooks.

These Americans, my brothers and sisters, are not only in grievous pain over the inhumane policies of this misAdministration, the real pain of no health care, no money, anxiety over their families ... my brothers and sisters are also in such pain over being made to feel they don't matter, they just don't matter at all.  From New Orleans to New York City, from Minneapolis to Biloxi, all over the country, folks are being ground down by a terrible despair.

There's much that can lift that despair, and I have hope much will happen, that we will indeed have a real Democratic majority in 2008, including the Presidency.

But the feeling of disconnection with those who make the decisions that affect us all, that is not going to be so easy to repair.  Each time Congress allows this gang of crooks to have their way, it hurts us in ways that material problems alone do not explain.

It's not about the notion of standing up to bullies, the notion of our self-esteem and self-pride, though of course that is a factor in the pain we feel over this kind of action.  But that's ultimately a negative, to go against Bush and his gang.

What will really ease the pain, heal the wound, is to stand up FOR our brothers and sisters who have been so grievously wounded by what these criminals have done.  Each time Congress bows to them, it grinds salt in those wounds.  It is not rational, the emotional reaction is not just about the damage to our Constitution, to our country.  It is something deeper, something in our hearts that cries to see no one bothering to take a real risk, to stand up for us, who has that power and doesn't use it.

I realize this is an incoherent diary, and I apologize for it.  But it seemed to me the FISA debacle is just too painful, out of proportion to the real anger I would normally feel.

When are our representatives going to take a real risk?  Because I believe that taking that risk, showing the American people that our representatives are really listening to us, are willing to stand up for us, is the only thing that will heal this awful pain.

I simply have not seen this from our Congress.  Nor, as with the Iraq Supplemental, have I seen any real explanation from them as to why they are taking this route.  I don't think they realize the consequences to all of us, to our hearts and minds, that are occuring from these actions.

Ah, I wish I could say it better.  This is something I believe must be dealt with before 2008.

Originally posted to Nightprowlkitty on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:03 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Don't mean ... (328+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rebecca, arlam, SME in Seattle, katiebird, Sidhe, Canadian Reader, Alumbrados, paradox, Vince CA, Angie in WA State, BrooklynBoy, Alma, Night Owl, GeckoBlue, tundraman, melo, copymark, ks, CalifSherry, S wapiti, Hudson, mickT, DelRPCV, Gooserock, Powered Grace, NYmom, rincewind, TheGreatLeapForward, byteb, billlaurelMD, cotterperson, SanJoseLady, Charles CurtisStanley, rhubarb, eeff, Bexley Lane, frisco, marjo, RFK Lives, Matilda, PaintBoy, object16, HighSticking, redtravelmaster, Birdman, ralphie, maggiemae, LiberalBill04, opinionated, TheMomCat, Boston Boomer, bronte17, conchita, Dazy, landrew, howd, Wee Mama, Shadan7, mint julep, notimportant, megs, HippyWitch, KibbutzAmiad, highacidity, Mlle Orignalmale, CalNM, Pithy Cherub, scamp, luaptifer, JuliaAnn, Ignacio Magaloni, itsmitch, nargel, jigsaw68, sidinny, thingamabob, Terre, wonmug, ctsteve, rioduran, arkdem, antirove, high uintas, rocketito, litigatormom, SensibleShoes, decca, revsue, webweaver, antifa, mrkvica, commonscribe, cometman, TXsharon, churchylafemme, texasmom, Red Wind, BMarshall, homo neurotic, flatford39, johnnygunn, On The Bus, Catte Nappe, betson08, The Zipper, tabbycat in tenn, rockhound, walkshills, Bluefish, zett, zerelda, randallt, kfred, parryander, bablhous, boran2, Sassy, Ted Hitler, julifolo, rapala, maybeeso in michigan, bloomer 101, Bluesee, marina, 3goldens, SisTwo, BluejayRN, deepfish, SherwoodB, ek hornbeck, Chinton, indycam, andgarden, ejmw, kamarvt, jhutson, Simplify, drewfromct, reflectionsv37, Annalize5, zombie, dopealope, pasadena beggar, GreyHawk, annefrank, lotlizard, Little Lulu, Phil S 33, Yamara, exmearden, nightowl724, The Raven, Jay Elias, neroden, wiscmass, FindingMyVoice, Lisa Lockwood, Dunvegan, Tex Kosmaniac Dem Lady, pmob5977, USexpat Ukraine, Unduna, Ekaterin, Indiana Bob, psyched, mightymouse, Paddy999, Tigana, Asinus Asinum Fricat, Paper Cup, Hazardman, Jim P, forbodyandmind, RiaD, taracar, dus7, Showman, PeaceBot, esquimaux, gwilson, snazzzybird, MissInformation, kraant, tarheelblue, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, PatsBard, sherlyle, ej25, BlueInARedState, hungrycoyote, mooshter, Dvalkure, koNko, Hear Our Voices, buhdydharma, Sagittarius, Loonesta, Logical One, shanti2, Marcus Tullius, greenearth, ginja, blueoasis, robokos, StrayCat, A Siegel, 4Freedom, The Hindsight Times, OneCrankyDom, LibChicAZ, DSPS owl, Pager, Caoimhin Laochdha, gotalife, cjmarshall, Rusty1776, gabriella, edgery, feduphoosier, dirtfarmer, justiceputnam, Nerdsie, raindrop, rage, JugOPunch, midwesterner, vox humana, CA Nana, rsie, Mae, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Stripe, Peter Laesch, MadMs, choice joyce, shaharazade, Statusquomustgo, AmySmith, kurious, kidneystones, Temmoku, Noor B, pgm 01, marykk, Buckeye Hamburger, kokoro, ibonewits, pfiore8, EclecticFloridian, Cronesense, jessical, uncomfortably numb, Cottagerose, godislove, indy2dem, Dartagnan, Wide Awake in NJ, moosely2006, DvCM, LillithMc, Mary Mike, la urracca, Nespolo, Owllwoman, blackeyedsusan, Matt Z, greenchiledem, lurks a lot, DWG, txlosthorn, drchelo, 7November, artisan, brentmack, lizpolaris, ubertar, gfre, chicago jeff, SeaTurtle, MadAsHellMaddie, Brahman Colorado, madgranny, JML9999, Mulkum, Terra Mystica, Empower Ink, Red no more, commonweal, nom de paix, Clio2, Mad Kossack, Spoonfulofsugar, JeffW, LightningMan, ShaShaMae, wayoutinthestix, Rippen Kitten, Faheyman, Peperpatch, Saint Saddam, Mother of Zeus, Residentcynic, North Country Dem, dewley notid, Jake Williams, Runs With Scissors, brione, NogodsnomastersMary, asius, kyril, mommaK, Organic American, Readrock, apostrophobia, petulans, vanyel, Sun spots, shigeru, Victory Coffee, luckylizard, echatwa, James Kresnik, Jodster, george neville, A Man Called Gloom, allie123, 59stevenm, Executive Odor

    ... to be pessimistic.  Been thinking about this all night.  Just sayin'.

  •  I share your pain and uncomrehending (34+ / 0-)

    incoherence...expect I understand you perfectly.

    What are we fighting for? it seems so difficult right now...that we have been struggling to elect people who...don't seem to hear us.

    How can we make sense of it? Does our system simply NOT WORK anymore?????

  •  "Incoherent"? Please. This says ... (67+ / 0-)

    ...it perfectly. This captures it exactly for so many of us who have worked our butts off to replace Republicans with Democrats so we can stop playing defense and get on with the more important task of offense: replacing the dominant paradigm of elite governance inflicted upon us.

    This line of yours captures it perfectly. And when Congress caves in to these criminals, it's like sticking a white hot poker in an already awful wound.

    Recommended. Big time.

  •  Amen, sister (15+ / 0-)

    And for every time someone living in a red state hears a blue state brother or sister deride them or their state as hopeless or worthless.

    We must work together now even as we look for better in 2008.  Whatever the disappointments of that year, and there surely will be at least a few, we've got to be able to know we still have each other.

    That's what this is for the Democrats, isn't it? Their "Neville Chamberlain moment" before the Second World War. --Keith Olbermann, 5/23/07

    by rocketito on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:03:17 PM PDT

  •  I hope you don't mind. (17+ / 0-)

    Pain

    I don't think a person can exist without knowing inner pain, the hurts of the mind, not of the body.  At least I hope such a person has never been born.  Perhaps it's what makes us human, (though pet owners quite rightly will aver that their pets perceive such injury).  How is one supposed to handle it?

    My personal approach was to learn to * own * the pain.  However it got there, I earned it.  It is my pain, not someone else's.    The pain doesn't belong to the person who inflicted it but to me,  the person who received it.  The person who inflicted it cannot do anything with it.  Only I can do that.  If I were to allow my pain to belong to the perpetrator, I would be giving that person power over my life that extends much too far beyond the event which resulted in the damage.  

    Perhaps what I have said has already given too much power to someone else.  I own all my emotions.  To say that someone else "inflicted" pain on me really means that someone performed an action and that I chose to feel hurt by it, whatever the intent of that other person.  Perhaps it was not a choice I made consciously but it was one I made.  And I can consciously choose to know the pain is my own and to do something for myself to soothe it.

    •  Mind? (6+ / 0-)

      Not at all ... your wisdom is always more than welcomed.

      And I agree.  Thanks for this.

    •  I would love to read this, but find that (7+ / 0-)

      the red-on-blue is not readable...any chance of changing the colors?

      •  Not on that comment. (14+ / 0-)

        Blue? It's supposed to be gray.

        Pain

        I don't think a person can exist without knowing inner pain, the hurts of the mind, not of the body.  At least I hope such a person has never been born.  Perhaps it's what makes us human, (though pet owners quite rightly will aver that their pets perceive such injury).  How is one supposed to handle it?

        My personal approach was to learn to * own * the pain.  However it got there, I earned it.  It is my pain, not someone else's.    The pain doesn't belong to the person who inflicted it but to me,  the person who received it.  The person who inflicted it cannot do anything with it.  Only I can do that.  If I were to allow my pain to belong to the perpetrator, I would be giving that person power over my life that extends much too far beyond the event which resulted in the damage.  

        Perhaps what I have said has already given too much power to someone else.  I own all my emotions.  To say that someone else "inflicted" pain on me really means that someone performed an action and that I chose to feel hurt by it, whatever the intent of that other person.  Perhaps it was not a choice I made consciously but it was one I made.  And I can consciously choose to know the pain is my own and to do something for myself to soothe it.

        •  I've noticed that colors are different from my (6+ / 0-)

          laptop to my PC.

          When I want to see how something is really supposed to look, I go to the PC. LOL

          Primary elections: Vote for the Democrat you prefer; General elections: Vote for the Democrat. There's nothing difficult about this, people.

          by PatsBard on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:21:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks...entirely readable now! n/t (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          forbodyandmind, rserven, 4Freedom
        •  Reserven, I completely disagree.... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          decca, papercut, Nightprowlkitty, Matt Z

          You are applying what you learned about interpersonal conflict to a much broader socio-political issue and what you are saying does not apply when you are dealing with real institutional EVIL.

          The Bush Admin is IMO TRULY EVIL on an INSITUTIONAL LEVEL: IT IS INFLICTING GRIEVOUS, PHYSICAL, PALPABLE PAIN on this country for generations to come (Nola, Healthcare, Iraq, etc.).... just as Hitler inflicted grievous pain on the Jews... just as Slavery inflicted grievous pain on the blacks...just as Apartheid inflicted grievous pain on anyone not Afrikaans...

          EVIL DOES EXIST!  EVIL causes immmense suffering and that suffering is not in the eye or reaction of the beholder.  I have had direct, lengthy contact with a survivor of a WWII concentration camp and it would be a huge insult to them and their experience if I were to say to them:

          To say that someone else "inflicted" pain on me really means that someone performed an action and that I chose to feel hurt by it, whatever the intent of that other person.  Perhaps it was not a choice I made consciously but it was one I made.  And I can consciously choose to know the pain is my own and to do something for myself to soothe it.

          When one suffers at the hands of TRUE INSTITUTIONAL EVIL, the only way to handle it is to admit the reality of the evil and the reality of the suffering and... to suffer it.  And to allow all the emotions of anger, rage, resentment, helplessness, hopelessness, despair, regret, pity, sadness, etc. etc. to emerge as a seemingly never-ending river of acid out of oneself.  That acid strips off our psychic skins and we have a choice at some point in the bereavement process: to "die" in permanent bitterness or to accept growing new skins and readapt much sadder yet wiser to a world that has revealed its very dark side to us.  And to find the kind of power that can only be found from having survived a descent into Hell.

          Hopefully this 'bereavement process' will take us into a stronger place in life, where we can eventually find meaning in the suffering and in the growth it demanded of us.  Look at Nelson Mandela who endured 20 years of imprisonment to lead a liberated South Africa.

          To me, this diary is about the 'scream of pain' at the recognition that we have been caught in the vicegrip of incredible EVIL that has had and will continue to have serious consequences on all of us.  It is only by allowing ourselves to truly feel the horror of this, that we can find the best path out of it for us.  It is only by looking Evil in the Eye and retching from its STENCH that we can truly grasp what we have come up against.  

          Our hopes have been dashed at this Fisa Issue and more importantly for many of us, it has revealed an incredible lack of leadership at a time when we desperately need the protection of good leaders.  This is a serious issue.  The pain is huge and the diarist is speaking for a lot of us.  Howling in the night together like wounded wolves, we will find our solution after we find our way out of the pain.

          But today's task is to feel the pain.  And the diarist has made it possible for us to share our pain.  At that already has helped.

      •  I scrolled over it to highlight, and was able to (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alma, relentless, rserven, AmySmith, la urracca

        read it.

        "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by maggiemae on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:16:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  contact them for the 256th time? (12+ / 0-)

      To get it together and be adult Americans?

      Ooooooooooooo-kay!

    •  I did (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      papercut, Nightprowlkitty, Noor B

      Congressman,
      Do not vote for S. 1927 the bill that will give away our Constitutional rights. We cannot live in fear and give all we hold dear away out of fear.
      As Ben Franklin said " Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
      We have faced many enemies in our history and NEVER have we let them scare us. What happened to the Land of the FREE and home of the BRAVE? Do we now just ransom off our liberties in an attempt to buy security? Please defend the Constitution so many in the last 231 yrs have died for.

      (-7.50 -6.31) "Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness. George Washington"

      by arkdem on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:20:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  S. 1927 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nightprowlkitty

        S. 1927

        AN ACT
        To amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 to provide additional procedures for authorizing certain acquisitions of foreign intelligence information and for other purposes
        ....
        This Act may be cited as the `Protect America Act of 2007'
        ....
        The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) is amended by inserting after section 105 the following:

        `CLARIFICATION OF ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE OF PERSONS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES

        `Sec. 105A. Nothing in the definition of electronic surveillance under section 101(f) shall be construed to encompass surveillance directed at a person reasonably believed to be located outside of the United States.

        `ADDITIONAL PROCEDURE FOR AUTHORIZING CERTAIN ACQUISITIONS CONCERNING PERSONS LOCATED OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES

        `Sec. 105B. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General, may for periods of up to one year authorize the acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States if the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General determine, based on the information provided to them, that--

        `(1) there are reasonable procedures in place for determining that the acquisition of foreign intelligence information under this section concerns persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States, and such procedures will be subject to review of the Court pursuant to section 105C of this Act;

        `(2) the acquisition does not constitute electronic surveillance;

        `(3) the acquisition involves obtaining the foreign intelligence information from or with the assistance of a communications service provider, custodian, or other person (including any officer, employee, agent, or other specified person of such service provider, custodian, or other person) who has access to communications, either as they are transmitted or while they are stored, or equipment that is being or may be used to transmit or store such communications;

        `(4) a significant purpose of the acquisition is to obtain foreign intelligence information; and

        `(5) the minimization procedures to be used with respect to such acquisition activity meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 101(h).

        `This determination shall be in the form of a written certification, under oath, supported as appropriate by affidavit of appropriate officials in the national security field occupying positions appointed by the President, by and with the consent of the Senate, or the Head of any Agency of the Intelligence Community, unless immediate action by the Government is required and time does not permit the preparation of a certification. In such a case, the determination of the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General shall be reduced to a certification as soon as possible but in no event more than 72 hours after the determination is made.

        `(b) A certification under subsection (a) is not required to identify the specific facilities, places, premises, or property at which the acquisition of foreign intelligence information will be directed.

        `(c) The Attorney General shall transmit as soon as practicable under seal to the court established under section 103(a) a copy of a certification made under subsection (a). Such certification shall be maintained under security measures established by the Chief Justice of the United States and the Attorney General, in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence, and shall remain sealed unless the certification is necessary to determine the legality of the acquisition under section 105B.

        `(d) An acquisition under this section may be conducted only in accordance with the certification of the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General, or their oral instructions if time does not permit the preparation of a certification, and the minimization procedures adopted by the Attorney General. The Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate under section 108(a).

        `(e) With respect to an authorization of an acquisition under section 105B, the Director of National Intelligence and Attorney General may direct a person to--

        `(1) immediately provide the Government with all information, facilities, and assistance necessary to accomplish the acquisition in such a manner as will protect the secrecy of the acquisition and produce a minimum of interference with the services that such person is providing to the target; and

        `(2) maintain under security procedures approved by the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence any records concerning the acquisition or the aid furnished that such person wishes to maintain.

        `(f) The Government shall compensate, at the prevailing rate, a person for providing information, facilities, or assistance pursuant to subsection (e).

        `(g) In the case of a failure to comply with a directive issued pursuant to subsection (e), the Attorney General may invoke the aid of the court established under section 103(a) to compel compliance with the directive. The court shall issue an order requiring the person to comply with the directive if it finds that the directive was issued in accordance with subsection (e) and is otherwise lawful. Failure to obey an order of the court may be punished by the court as contempt of court. Any process under this section may be served in any judicial district in which the person may be found.

        `(h)(1)(A) A person receiving a directive issued pursuant to subsection (e) may challenge the legality of that directive by filing a petition with the pool established under section 103(e)(1).

        `(B) The presiding judge designated pursuant to section 103(b) shall assign a petition filed under subparagraph (A) to one of the judges serving in the pool established by section 103(e)(1). Not later than 48 hours after the assignment of such petition, the assigned judge shall conduct an initial review of the directive. If the assigned judge determines that the petition is frivolous, the assigned judge shall immediately deny the petition and affirm the directive or any part of the directive that is the subject of the petition. If the assigned judge determines the petition is not frivolous, the assigned judge shall, within 72 hours, consider the petition in accordance with the procedures established under section 103(e)(2) and provide a written statement for the record of the reasons for any determination under this subsection.

        `(2) A judge considering a petition to modify or set aside a directive may grant such petition only if the judge finds that such directive does not meet the requirements of this section or is otherwise unlawful. If the judge does not modify or set aside the directive, the judge shall immediately affirm such directive, and order the recipient to comply with such directive.

        `(3) Any directive not explicitly modified or set aside under this subsection shall remain in full effect.

        `(i) The Government or a person receiving a directive reviewed pursuant to subsection (h) may file a petition with the Court of Review established under section 103(b) for review of the decision issued pursuant to subsection (h) not later than 7 days after the issuance of such decision. Such court of review shall have jurisdiction to consider such petitions and shall provide for the record a written statement of the reasons for its decision. On petition for a writ of certiorari by the Government or any person receiving such directive, the record shall be transmitted under seal to the Supreme Court, which shall have jurisdiction to review such decision.

        `(j) Judicial proceedings under this section shall be concluded as expeditiously as possible. The record of proceedings, including petitions filed, orders granted, and statements of reasons for decision, shall be maintained under security measures established by the Chief Justice of the United States, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.

        `(k) All petitions under this section shall be filed under seal. In any proceedings under this section, the court shall, upon request of the Government, review ex parte and in camera any Government submission, or portions of a submission, which may include classified information.

        `(l) Notwithstanding any other law, no cause of action shall lie in any court against any person for providing any information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with a directive under this section.

        `(m) A directive made or an order granted under this section shall be retained for a period of not less than 10 years from the date on which such directive or such order is made.'.

        SEC. 3. SUBMISSION TO COURT REVIEW AND ASSESSMENT OF PROCEDURES.

        The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) is amended by inserting after section 105B the following:

        `SUBMISSION TO COURT REVIEW OF PROCEDURES

        `Sec. 105C. (a) No later than 120 days after the effective date of this Act, the Attorney General shall submit to the Court established under section 103(a), the procedures by which the Government determines that acquisitions conducted pursuant to section 105B do not constitute electronic surveillance. The procedures submitted pursuant to this section shall be updated and submitted to the Court on an annual basis.

        `(b) No later than 180 days after the effective date of this Act, the court established under section 103(a) shall assess the Government's determination under section 105B(a)(1) that those procedures are reasonably designed to ensure that acquisitions conducted pursuant to section 105B do not constitute electronic surveillance. The court's review shall be limited to whether the Government's determination is clearly erroneous.

        `(c) If the court concludes that the determination is not clearly erroneous, it shall enter an order approving the continued use of such procedures. If the court concludes that the determination is clearly erroneous, it shall issue an order directing the Government to submit new procedures within 30 days or cease any acquisitions under section 105B that are implicated by the court's order.

        `(d) The Government may appeal any order issued under subsection (c) to the court established under section 103(b). If such court determines that the order was properly entered, the court shall immediately provide for the record a written statement of each reason for its decision, and, on petition of the United States for a writ of certiorari, the record shall be transmitted under seal to the Supreme Court of the United States, which shall have jurisdiction to review such decision. Any acquisitions affected by the order issued under subsection (c) of this section may continue during the pendency of any appeal, the period during which a petition for writ of certiorari may be pending, and any review by the Supreme Court of the United States.'.

        SEC. 4. REPORTING TO CONGRESS.

        On a semi-annual basis the Attorney General shall inform the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate, the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives, the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, concerning acquisitions under this section during the previous 6-month period. Each report made under this section shall include--

        (1) a description of any incidents of non-compliance with a directive issued by the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence under section 105B, to include--

        (A) incidents of non-compliance by an element of the Intelligence Community with guidelines or procedures established for determining that the acquisition of foreign intelligence authorized by the Attorney General and Director of National Intelligence concerns persons reasonably to be outside the United States; and

        (B) incidents of noncompliance by a specified person to whom the Attorney General and Director of National Intelligence issue a directive under this section; and

        (2) the number of certifications and directives issued during the reporting period.

        SEC. 5. TECHNICAL AMENDMENT AND CONFORMING AMENDMENTS.

        (a) In General- Section 103(e) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(e)) is amended--

        (1) in paragraph (1), by striking `501(f)(1)' and inserting `105B(h) or 501(f)(1)'; and

        (2) in paragraph (2), by striking `501(f)(1)' and inserting `105B(h) or 501(f)(1)'.

        (b) Table of Contents- The table of contents in the first section of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 105 the following:

        `105A. Clarification of electronic surveillance of persons outside the United States.

        `105B. Additional procedure for authorizing certain acquisitions concerning persons located outside the United States.

        `105C. Submission to court review of procedures.'.

        SEC. 6. EFFECTIVE DATE; TRANSITION PROCEDURES.

        (a) Effective Date- Except as otherwise provided, the amendments made by this Act shall take effect immediately after the date of the enactment of this Act.

        (b) Transition Procedures- Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, any order in effect on the date of enactment of this Act issued pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) shall remain in effect until the date of expiration of such order, and, at the request of the applicant, the court established under section 103(a) of such Act (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)) shall reauthorize such order as long as the facts and circumstances continue to justify issuance of such order under the provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, as in effect on the day before the applicable effective date of this Act. The Government also may file new applications, and the court established under section 103(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)) shall enter orders granting such applications pursuant to such Act, as long as the application meets the requirements set forth under the provisions of such Act as in effect on the day before the effective date of this Act. At the request of the applicant, the court established under section 103(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)), shall extinguish any extant authorization to conduct electronic surveillance or physical search entered pursuant to such Act. Any surveillance conducted pursuant to an order entered under this subsection shall be subject to the provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.), as in effect on the day before the effective date of this Act.

        (c) Sunset- Except as provided in subsection (d), sections 2, 3, 4, and 5 of this Act, and the amendments made by this Act, shall cease to have effect 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

        (d) Authorizations in Effect- Authorizations for the acquisition of foreign intelligence information pursuant to the amendments made by this Act, and directives issued pursuant to such authorizations, shall remain in effect until their expiration. Such acquisitions shall be governed by the applicable provisions of such amendments and shall not be deemed to constitute electronic surveillance as that term is defined in section 101(f) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801(f)).
        Passed the Senate August 3, 2007.

        "The acquisition does not constitute electronic surveillance...the acquisition involves obtaining the foreign intelligence information from or with the assistance of a communications service provider."

        I think they want telecom contact information such as phone numbers, e-mail addresses and the physical and temporal information associated with electronic communications[thirteen e-mails with specific dates for each, etc.], not content information[which would be obtainable by means of a warrant I presume].

        If someone gets called or e-mailed from the tribal regions of Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or any other place outside the US of interest as known or suspected by a domestic or foreign intelligence or police service, the The Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General get to find out.

  •  Pain is the correct word (28+ / 0-)

    It hits us in the deepest part of our soul, like the pain we feel as a child when betrayed by a parent.

  •  Nightprowlkitty...... (27+ / 0-)

    You said it beautifully and with deep feelings.  You are far from alone in feeling sheer pain over what is happening day in and day out.

    I've lived through lots of painful periods in this country, but nothing comes close to this time around.  I like to think that there can be growth when there is pain, for indeed, these are painful lessons we are facing of what can happen when we don't pay rigorous attention to who is running this country.  I like to believe that what comes through will be stronger in the end for the fighting and recommitment to valued principles.  I like to hope that we will once again reign with sanity in this country.  But.......  

    You make a living by what you get and a life by what you give. W. Churchill

    by Cronesense on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:13:50 PM PDT

  •  Pain is so much harder to bear (28+ / 0-)

    when it is inflicted by those in whom you have placed precious trust.  many Democrats squandered the right to  my trust by not standing on principle.  That is painful and you captured it poetically and truthfully.  You, I can trust.

    Every time history repeats itself the price goes up - Anonymous Me

    by Pithy Cherub on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:18:50 PM PDT

  •  The most powerful tool (11+ / 0-)

    We need to stop thinking this way.  We need to stop worrying about what this administration has done to the Constitution.  We are the Constitution!!  We, as a nation allowed this to happen under our very noses for the last three decades and the rise of authoritarianism in the United States.  We allowed this to happen every time we did not question a professor, we allowed this to happen every time we believed what we read in the newspaper because it was some authority, we allowed this to happen every time we passed a homeless person and did not ask fundamental questions of how there can be homeless in our society.  And yet we should not despair.  We have at our fingertips what many will come to see as the most powerful tool known to humanity in the service of democracy - the internet.  If we are the Constitution, and we are constantly coming in to being, then the Constitution is constantly coming in to being.  You have never had so much control.

    •  I rec'd your comment (13+ / 0-)

      because your heart is in the right place.

      But your head hasn't wrapped around this one yet.

      The more authoritarian and invasive this mob becomes, the more power they have over the internet. If it isn't happening already, then soon virtually every bit that goes in and out of your computer will be scanned by the spooks. They'll know every site you visit, every file you download, and probably every word you type.

      And with these broad and unaccounted-for powers of surveillance in the hands of a corrupt regime, which also has the power to decide what counts as "aiding the enemy", or "treason", or "sedition", or "undermining the efforts in Iraq", we're all just a bunch of Winston Smiths waiting to be trucked off to the Ministry of Love for discipline.

      The people running this government are obviously no longer interested in the principles that this nation was founded on. Whatever they are "protecting", it's certainly NOT the Constitution, or the liberties of the People who rightfully own this government.

      Rather than "protecting" the citizens from "terrorism", they seem to be more about protecting themselves, and the top economic ten percent, from the rest of us.

      Okay, I'm here. Now, where's that free government cheese?

      by Executive Odor on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:55:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  wrong (10+ / 0-)

      I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of malarkey.  WE are not the Constitution.  The Constitution is a written document which the founders of the nation wrote to establish the principles for which our government was founded.  To say "WE" is painting with a much too broad of a brush.  To imply that average ordinary Americans, and much more so the poor and powerless, have any control of the loss of our freedoms is not realistic.  We voted in Democrats we thought and hoped would restore civil liberties and protect the Constitution.  That has not happened.

      We are getting carpal tunnel syndrome writing furiously away on blogs.  I have called my congressmen and Senators.  I have campaigned for Democrats all my life.  There is not much more I, or anyone else can do, ordinary citizens can do, other than taking up arms against the government.  And one person against a police state?  I hope and pray I am wrong but I fear the die is cast.  

      In my own heart I know how I fell must be felt by millions of Americans.  We are weary, we are tired, we are disillusioned.  Our energy is sapped.  We realize this country is toast because those who were in a position of authority, who were supposed to be protecting us from fascism- the judiciary, the Congress, civilian military leadership who swore an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign AND domestic, have failed us, utterly failed us.

      This is tragically what happened in 1930's Germany.   The democratic institutions buckled under similar threats and tantrums of a similar tyrant.  And then it was too late, because an ordinary German was no match for the might and discipline of the German police state, with all its vicious control having neighbors spying on neighbors, mass idolatrous patriotic spectacles, mass propaganda over the airwaves, etc.  I'm sure there were millions of Germans back then who watched helplessly, as we do now, as their beloved country slid into fascism.

      The Democratic party has failed us.  The courts have failed us.  The 4th Estate, the media, has failed us.  The church has failed us.  In fact one could say that most of the church has been a willing accomplice in the rush towards fascism.  

      Short of a miraculous, spontaneous, mass uprising, I really don't see what can be done now.  We need a Gandhi, a Martin Luther King or a Lech Walesa.  Oh yes, speaking of Walesa, where are the labor unions when all this is happening?  Don't they realize when the police state is fully operational labor unions will be outlawed or made into the farces they are in Communist China?

  •  It's not a risk. . . (8+ / 0-)

    to stand with the three-quarters of Americans who have had it up to here with this bunch of crooks and con artists (I am referring to the White House--at least this time). Our Senators and Representatives would be rewarded--handsomely, I believe--if they would once and for all stare down the cowardly, fearmongering president and veep and show America that, truly, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    And when I say "rewarded," I mean with greater support and bigger majorities.

    I urge everyone to write their Reps today and phone, too. Urge a no vote, and urge him or her to go to the Speaker and urge her to keep this FISA “reform” bill off the floor.

    (npk, you did afford me a small smile on this painful day. I noticed that you, too, include The Great Taco Hunt on your blog roll. . . don't see that a lot in these orange parts. I believe it was Emma Goldman that said, "If I can't have Tacos, I don't want to be in your revolution.")

    Anything can happen. You can even get a full glass of beer at a cocktail lounge.

    by Red Wind on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:30:01 PM PDT

    •  Heh. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Red Wind, 4Freedom, Noor B

      I love that site.  And of course the blogger is a kossack at heart!

      Agree with you that it's not a real risk -- but for some reason our reps seem to think it is.  So on their part it would indeed be a risk, that being their own perception.

      •  I have a hard time with. . . (7+ / 0-)

        those that decry "poll-driven politics" these days, because if we had poll-driven politics, we would be winning on issues like this.

        If the giant numbers in all of the polls don't convince our Reps, if our organized and passionate activism here and elsewhere doesn't, if the utter disrespect they receive over and over from the Bush Bunch doesn't, what will?

        (I grew up in LA, but live in NYC, so I live vicariously through GTH. . . )

        Anything can happen. You can even get a full glass of beer at a cocktail lounge.

        by Red Wind on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:42:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those who decry (6+ / 0-)

          "poll driven politics" are excusing themselves for ignoring the will of the People who put them in office.

          They were elected because of "poll driven politics", but once they're in office, they seem to forget that.

          When 70% of the citizens of this country want something done, it's time they damn well listened. That's why we hired them. I didn't hire them so I could be ignored, and marginalized, and I didn't hire them so they stand in front of cameras and strike the "tough on terror" pose to the detriment of my civil liberties.

          Our elected public servants have to stop listening to these brainless operatives in the "news" media, and start listening to the people who pay their salaries.

          Okay, I'm here. Now, where's that free government cheese?

          by Executive Odor on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:07:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's pain that feels like its coming from a (25+ / 0-)

    raging infection. Chronic pain.

    I feel completely derailed as a citizen of this country. Especially after the FISA vote. Especially after listening to Dianne Feinstein on C-SPAN last night. Incomprehensible.

    How we spend our days, of course, is how we spend our lives. - Annie Dillard
    Visit me at exme arden

    by exmearden on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:30:59 PM PDT

  •  You've said it perfectly... thank you... (10+ / 0-)

    Rec'ed and applauded..

    George W. Bush... wiretapping the Amish since 2001...

    by ThatSinger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:35:53 PM PDT

  •  Pain doesn't describe (20+ / 0-)

    what I'm feeling. Hopelessness comes closer. I feel like walking away from it all,because nothing I do or say will make any difference to those people. They don't hear us because they don't care!
    They talk to us like we are children,they make promises they have no intention to keep just so we're happy and elect them again and again and again and again.

    We are the ones who have to grow a spine,balls,whatever
    and walk away from them and not enable them again to stab us in the back. It's the only way to make a real difference and to save this country.

    I've been running against the wind (to steal a line from a song) all my life trying to make a difference,but today I think I'm done...

    This is how I feel today.

    ...and like fools we trust the delivery but it's all just drunk sincerity.

    by mint julep on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:36:42 PM PDT

  •  It is a pervasive "mind think" of today's society (14+ / 0-)

    Adults who act as junior high schoolers - taunting and targeting people they perceive as weak (or who ever has the misfortune to be the outcast of the day for whatever nonconformist act), yet no one will stand up to the bullies.  
    Businesses that not only allow unethical behavior, but require it from employees.  Anyone who attempts to speak out against the wrongdoing is soon punished in one way or another.
    A greater "tolerance" of general rudeness that goes unchecked.  Yes, we all have bad days where we may not act as we should.  But too many people think it's not only okay to be rude, but that it's almost required behavior (lest they be perceived as weak.)
     And don't think you have to be poor, homosexual, or a person of color to be victimized by these bad behaviors.  Don't assume that just becuase someone is white, well educated, and/or middle class that they haven't had their lives destroyed in some way by the bullies of the world.
     And don't think that Kossacks are immune from the bad behavior.  I've seen or experienced first hand the taunting, targeting, and undeserved marginalizing here (and I'm not referring to trolls.)  Take that misdirected energy and point it where it's deserved.
     Those who can, do.  Those who can't, bully.
     

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:37:13 PM PDT

  •  I'm in mourning. (20+ / 0-)

    I'm trying to believe that the house won't do it, but if they do it, we will be mourning the death of the Republic that, in the end, we could not keep.

    Sorry, Fathers, you did a good job. You gave us all that could be asked for, you saw with clarity both the good and the greed of humanity, you gave us a fine vehicle for the one and did all you could to protect us from the other. With diligence and faith and deep wisdom, you gave us a Republic of true Beauty and Justice, but in the end we have failed. We have failed.

    I would not have chosen to bear witness to such things as this. But I do bear witness, we all bear witness. My grief is overwhelming.

    "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

    by Unduna on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:37:27 PM PDT

  •  I never thought I'd be one of those (5+ / 0-)

    who said there's no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties, but there's no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties.  This vote says that the Democrats are completely incapable of governing.  The chance that I just stay home come election day has now skyrocketed.

    That pain is the realization that the Democratic Party isn't just a less than ideal choice that's basically competent, can be fixed, and is vastly preferable to the Republican party; rather the Democratic party is grossly incompetent, completely broken, can't be fixed, and isn't enough better than the Republicans to make me care anymore.

    "In my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."--George W. Bush

    by cjmarshall on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:38:16 PM PDT

    •  the problem here is that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      James Kresnik

      until the American people as a whole realize that the Democratic Party has become an obstacle instead of a vehicle, replacing it with a progressive party won't be possible.

      When the American people as a whole feel as betrayed by the Democratic Party as we do, The Party's Over, it will collapse as a national party in a single election cycle. A year of the Democratic Party spouting "We've got the power and we're going to help" while conducting K-Street driven business as usual will result in that collapse.

      IMO, this is going to make it possible for at least one third party to become a second one, replacing the Democrats. If we do nothing, that party will probably be the Libertarians or the Greens.

      A progressive strategy?

      • Go back to work for Democratic candidates. Hold your nose if need be, especially if HRC gets coronated as nominee. In order for the Democratic Party to be seen as a radioactive failure, it must have the power to keep its political promises and be seen not doing so.
      • Do the spadework required to build the framework of a new national party. If we have judged the historic moment correctly, the people needed to fill in that framework will appear shortly after it's built.

      If I were going past hypotheticals here, I'd start with a googlegroups mailing list and a wiki to organize the massive research and information that's required to do this. Hint: the research needed to build 50 state parties and a national party... 51 jurisdictions worth of state and Federal FEC paperwork.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:19:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  slap in the face, wake-up call, or both? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clio2

      The Republicans are a party. The Democrats don't really comprise a political party. It is a patchwork of overlapping groups with no core of common values. The Bushies have learned to play the Dem's like a fiddle, as this most recent fiasco demonstrates. Divide and conquer.

      As a comparison, remember how many republicans helped to grill Gonzales? Criticize him, criticize the war? Well, when it came time to vote the putrid party line, they didn't even hold their noses. Look at Arlen Specter - he really came down on Gonzo, that is before he voted to give him more power over wiretaps. BUT, we expect that kind of duplicity from the repugs.

      Now we realize that we should all expect that of the Democrats too. If I were living in California, I'd be pulling for Sheehan over Feinstein big time. If I were in Virginia, I'd slam Webb.

      My bottom line is that it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Someday a beautiful Phoenix will rise out of the ashes of this society, but I'm afraid it will require much suffering and destruction to burn away the ignorence before that day dawns.

      "The problem with Democracy as a form of government is that it depends on people like us." - Garrison Keillor

  •  I'm pretty bewildered too (12+ / 0-)

    Why? I keep asking myself.  Why throw away everything we believe for this lying felon killing idiot?

    Why are our people so stupid?  I don't understand how this could be happening, I really don't.

    I will not stand here forever and enable this, I will not.  If it passes my Democracy Bond is canceled and I may leave the party.  I can't enable this behavior indefinitely.

    •  bewildered is so apt a word (4+ / 0-)

      why?

      Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

      by notimportant on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:46:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I honestly believe they caved (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Noor B, crose, SeaTurtle

      because Bush/Chen used their illegal wiretapping etc. to get something on as many Democratic members of Congress as possible. That is the only thing that makes sense to me - something is being held over their heads... (No I don't have a link for this - it's just a thought I've had for a while).

      Should I put on a tin foil hat?

      Why do Republikans hate America?

      by AmySmith on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:23:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think so. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moiv, matt2525

        But I very well see how anyone can come up with virtually any notion to explain this vote.  Fact is, our reps are simply not being straight with us.  And because of that it's almost irresistable to come up with our own reasons, because their public responses simply don't make any sense.

        I don't think the Dems are being blackmailed.  The most charitable explanation I can think of is they know more intelligence about threats to the USA and as Bush doesn't give a fuck if we get hit again, the Dems feel they're being "responsible" by not allowing needed surveillance to lapse.

        But that's not what they're telling us.  So my speculation is as groundless as any tinfoil notion anyone can come up with.

      •  I agree AmySmith...somethings fishy here.... (0+ / 0-)
  •  From Fernando Botero (7+ / 0-)

    Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

    When good people of conscience give up the fight for justice, all is lost. Therefore you must not give up. www.politicalartwork.blogspot.com

    by EmilyD on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:44:06 PM PDT

  •  The acts of a few alleged terrorists on 9/11/01 (11+ / 0-)

    have resulted in the slaughtering of an estimated 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq who had nothing to do with attacking our Country and who were themselves living under tyranny. How's that for a disproportionate and wrongful response?  It's called genocide and the leaders that other Americans voted into office, not me, are behind it.

    To the millions of displaced Iraqi citizens and those killed in this war,and to many of the 2 billion Muslims in the World, we are the infidel and I say we because we are guilty by association.

    America, love it or change it!

    You are like Whited Sepulchers all clean and fair without, but within filled with dead men's bones and all corruption.  You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.  Serpents, brood of vipors.  How can any of you escape damnation?

  •  We have become a nation of tyrants, shopping (8+ / 0-)

    while our government destroys civilization as we once knew it.

    Our compliant, Democratic Congress is getting no kudos from me.

    New national holiday: Freedom Day 1/20/2009 (too, too far away from today)

    by 4Freedom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:48:49 PM PDT

  •  Excellent thoughts, NPK (9+ / 0-)

    People in despair often lose their will to fight, or even to live.

    Has our Congress permitted Bush to demotivate them to the extent that they now obey his will?

    Is that what we're supposed to do too? Give in to despair, give up and let the government have its way?

    I wish we had some answers.

    Impeach.....before it's too late.

    by Ekaterin on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:49:22 PM PDT

  •  I Would Rather - (11+ / 0-)

    Vote for a New Democratic Party -
    That has half the members of the old one -
    Than vote for the current Democratic Party -
    Even though it has a supposed majority.

    •  You've Said A Mouthful (0+ / 0-)

      A new Third Party from scratch cannot get enough traction to do any good.

      An effective Third Party could be possibly be started with a select company of seasoned and principled Democrats who choose to leave the old Whited Sepulcher in order to build something new.

  •  numbing pain (19+ / 0-)

    i deeply resent the circumstances that engendered this incredible diary.

    i'm just sitting here, kind of glumly shaking my head.

    god.

    why why why why don't congressional democrats know that they CAN stand up to one of the most inept, unpopular, dangerous presidents ever?

    why can't they see that they MUST?  

    Time for Miles to soothe me again, because jazz is the antibush. --zic

    by homo neurotic on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:52:25 PM PDT

  •  Will the House make King Bush Law? (12+ / 0-)

    Via TPM

    A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate.

    The House votes shortly on Bush's FISA Bill.

    Contact Your Representative NOW!

  •  couldn't be said better (9+ / 0-)

    thanks NPK. I don't think the "Democrats" in congress who keep voting to enable King George understand what they're doing to America. Terrorists could never have stolen the constitution, but this government - with Democrats helping - has given it away.

  •  NPK - well said (8+ / 0-)

    and then contrast your words to the insipid platitudes that we get from senators explaining their vote for this bill.

    How can the senate have hearing after hearing showing the AG is either a liar or suffering mental problems/mental lapses and then turn around and give him the ultimate authority over domestic surveillance?

  •  great diary NPK (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, godislove, SeaTurtle

    but call me when the revolutions on.

    You don't pay any attention to what your parents tell you, but you watch the way they live their lives...Tom Waits

    by lisastar on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:04:38 PM PDT

  •  Dialing all spines (9+ / 0-)

    via Firedoglake

    It’s time to hit the phone lines, boys and girls.  The House will be taking up the FISA legislation — and I refuse to allow the Constitution and probable cause to go down without a fight.  So let’s hit the phones, shall we?  (H/T to katymine for the numbers)

    1 (800) 828 - 0498
    1 (800) 459 - 1887
    1 (800) 614 - 2803
    1 (866) 340 - 9281
    1 (866) 338 - 1015
    1 (877) 851 - 6437

  •  A World of Hurt (14+ / 0-)

    My own senator - Bill Nelson - was one of the crossover Democrats that knelt down and licked Bush's shoe. Makes me ashamed of my state, ashamed I voted for him.

    It could be that many of our senators think we don't pay attention to things like the FISA court, maybe they think that only they understand warrantless wiretapping.

    Well, the senate did their work and kicked it to the House. Let's hope we do better there. Nice diary, NPK.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:21:34 PM PDT

    •  ditto dear (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Raven, Noor B

      I'll be looking for Billy Nelson while he's on "vacation" and I'll be sure to ask  about his "personal sacrifice" in this war and why if his son had been serving our nation, rather than becoming a public drunk nuisance here in Tampa - maybe then he wouldn't be serving.  

      I do wonder though - is there something being held over these Senators' heads?  Bill Nelson's son just got sent to prison, Jim Webb's son just got sent back to "hell", who else has children//family members in trouble/serving?

      Why does he hate our constitution?

  •  "I feel your pain" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Noor B, Cronesense, Matt Z

    Bill Clinton, over and over, for 8 years. This caving is nothing new, it's business as usual. Our reps from the exec. on down don't really work for us. they represent the MONEY. They may, if one gives them the benefit of the doubt, think that what's good for business is good for everyone, but their wrong. They don't know our world none of them! Our pain is a symptom which will get worse and worse as we lose all recourse to address through parliamentary means, of that which is intolerable, from civil rights through tort. We seem to have a disconnect as to the problems that afffect us from the most progressive to the Leibermans.

    Does any member of both houses view our pain through the constitutional premise of "We the People" don't think so. They view it trough power ,fear and the almighty, right is might (which means guns and money). So Democrats how about stopping your aiding and abetting our great down slide into a whatever this is, and restoring some form of recognizable democracy. How dare you dismantle the final and only walls separating our system from every tin pan dictator since history began that comes down the pike, using the cheapest trick of all, Fear.  

    "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

    by shaharazade on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:22:42 PM PDT

  •  I told my Republican mom and her boyfriend (16+ / 0-)

    both party activists, that I was sick of being called a liberal as if it were a dirty word. He laughed, this sickening snicker you'd expect of a 15 year old caught looking in his mom's underwear drawer for something to wear.

    I am so sick of Republicanism without Responsibility.

    They're traitors.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

    by zic on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:23:33 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for this sharply focused diary.... (5+ / 0-)

    Why are Democrats doing this to America?  And how do we get in front of all this and forge a new way?

    Why would Democrats enable the abuse of power and the marginalization of our Constitution?

    Why do Pelosi and Reid make it so easy for the GOP to get their way?  

    This is a strategy all right, but not to restore checks and balances or to restore citizen rights.  

  •  As the pick up the pieces at I35W shout from (4+ / 0-)

    the rooftops we're spending  $266,851/second in Iraq hattip to FWIW

    Be carefull what you shoot at, most things in here don't react well to bullets-Sean Connery .... Captain Marko Ramius -Hunt For Red October

    by JML9999 on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:32:19 PM PDT

  •  Well written, Nightprowlkitty! We, the people, (12+ / 0-)

    are indeed filled with an unbearable pain when the Rethuglican MINORITY can continue to set the agenda, create the message and bully the MAJORITY in Congress into capitulating to these criminals.

    That's exactly how criminals always succeed.  They demand protection money and trash the place to prove that the person needs that protection.

    They've trashed our democracy.  They've trashed our country.  They've trashed the American people.  And now they're gonna make us all pay.

    I vote for citizens' arrest.  Let's start with the Wizard in the White House, Karl f'ng Rove, he who sets the agenda, creates the message and ensures the corporate media sells that message to the people.  Start with him and these criminals will soon bear the brunt of the peoples' collective wrath, culminating in impeachment.

    At least I can still dream.

  •  The darkest hour (6+ / 0-)

    is before the dawn. Its a cliche that happens to be true.

    We are more sensitive to the feelings of others, and to national mood and demeanor. That is the price of being humane, educated, and liberal.

    If you can imagine what it must have been like in 1944 when German troops, nearly defeated, exhausted, with little hope of success, stormed out of the forests and mauled, devestated and nearly overran an entire American army. Thousands were killed, thousands went missing. That is fear. They stood.
    The outcome did not change.

    We are in a similar time now, politically. Most of the American public has caught on, yet the levers and money of power are still in the hands of hysterically fearful people. The outcome is not in doubt. We will lose some more battles, but the end of this Constitutional nightmare is almost over. Be steady, and know that the outcome is not in doubt.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:34:48 PM PDT

    •  I'm trying, I really am. (4+ / 0-)

      I have been doing what I think is a great job of holding to the vision. I think we all have been doing a great job (I love you people, by the way...).

      Today is making it hard, but I'm with you.
      Today is a day where straddling the fence between vision and reality is creating the sort of cognitive dissonance I usually can master, but today is a hard one.

      But I'm with you. I am, but lordy...it's hurtin'.

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:54:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let me tell you about it (9+ / 0-)

    In 2006 the American voters, who were being brutally gangraped by thugs in a back alley; managed with feeble, bruised hands to reach into their pocket and hit that button on their cellphone that was programmed to speed dial 911. The dispatcher could here the cries and the brutal calls of the rapists and dispatched help.

    A short while later, a group of boys in Blue arrived and spotlighted the scene of horror in that dark alley with their headlights and spotlights.

    The American voter, feeling a sense of relief that the nightmare might soon be over, let her guard down for a moment.  

    Then, faceless figures lit from behind by the bright lights join in.

    "Don't worry boys, we've got you covered. Who can the little voters call on now? Mind if we get a little bit of the action?"

    Sorry if this sounds too brutal, but it's just how I feel about what is going on right now.

    Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

    by Mad Kossack on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:46:49 PM PDT

  •  Has anyone else wondered (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Noor B, blue vertigo

    what will be the reaction of Americans if/when another terrorist attack occurs here?  Another on Bush's watch?  (I'm assuming the spectre of this possibility is what caused the Democrats to so spinelessly cave on the FISA bill)  Another that cannot be blamed in any way on Bill Clinton as the neo-cons did last time--with some success.  Another with bin Laden still running free?  Will Americans understand, finally, how much the Iraq debacle has cost us in terms of security?

    Of course we have to worry about the
    administration's reaction to Americans' reactions.  Bush, with Democrat acquiescence, has amassed so much power in the past years that I imagine the public will be rendered powerless to act...even if they are not too frightened to act.  

    To God: Please stop talking to George Bush. Too much is being lost in translation.

    by miriam on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:51:47 PM PDT

    •  The first response will be to blame Bush -- (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      miriam, moiv, Noor B, Matt Z

      An amazingly easy argument to win -- but then Harry Reid couldn't sell water to a man dying of thirst.  Why don't we have a "frame the debate" for another attack on the US contest.  Forward the best ones to the DC DEMs to pull off the shelf if such an event occurs.  

      What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

      by Marie on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:46:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I Wish (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clio2

        The first response will be to rally around Bush. The second response will be to rally around Bush. The mainstream media will not report any dissent, no matter how much there is.

        There will be a move to cancel the 2008 election, and guess what? IT WILL BE A BI-PARTISAN RESOLUTION.

  •  Today's Pain is the most I have ever felt (10+ / 0-)

    and seeing how so many commrads have been affected is devastating.

    Just Do ONE thing each day and you WIll make a differance

    by notimportant on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:52:21 PM PDT

  •  Excellent (12+ / 0-)

    Nightprowlkitty, you speak for me.

    A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. - Aristotle

    by DWG on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:52:49 PM PDT

  •  . . . representatives taking a real risk . . . (9+ / 0-)

    When are our representatives going to take a real risk?  Because I believe that taking that risk, showing the American people that our representatives are really listening to us, are willing to stand up for us, is the only thing that will heal this awful pain

    Wonderful diary and catches many of the feelings that have me doubled over in anger and frustration.

    To me, the pain also comes when Congress, especially our congressional Democrats, "fearlessly" risk our rights and the future of our liberties to assuage their narrow political fears. "Risk" is generous because they in fact know they are trading our liberties away rather than just risking them.

    Not only do they lack courage for themselves, they insult us be fearing that voters, in general, are not smart enough to appreciate and re-elect people who fight on our behalf.

    Our team is craven, sad and shepherded by fear.

    sláinte

    cl

    Religion is like sodomy: harmless for consenting adults and cruel if forced on a child.

    by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:07:02 PM PDT

  •  Not incoherent (7+ / 0-)

    but insightful and inspiring.

    What will really ease the pain, heal the wound, is to stand up FOR our brothers and sisters who have been so grievously wounded by what these criminals have done.

    Thank you.

    Among a people generally corrupt, liberty cannot long exist. - Edmund Burke

    by Deep Harm on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:10:09 PM PDT

  •  How do you slap (8+ / 0-)

    a whole recalcitrant, spineless, worthless Congress 'up aside the head'?

    ....Damn frustrating....

    It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress. Mark Twain

    by rsie on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:15:20 PM PDT

  •  Stockholm Syndrome? n/t (4+ / 0-)

    To think is easy. To act is difficult. To act as one thinks is the most difficult of all -Goethe

    by commonscribe on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:16:25 PM PDT

  •  unrelenting chronic pain... (7+ / 0-)

    the type where you cannot ignore it, and you have no pill to dull it.

    1/20/09: End of an Error.

    by Esjaydee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:17:31 PM PDT

  •  Thank-you (3+ / 0-)

    Another cut n paste and print n hang on the cubicle wall.
    I hope we get to 1/20/09 in one piece and in one peace.

    Integrity Accountability '08

    by beneldon on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:26:33 PM PDT

  •  The consequences that they care about (6+ / 0-)

    is the vote in 2008...and every single one of you, no matter what they do wrong, no matter how badly they sell-out the Constitution, will still vote for every single one of them.  You will give and give money to them.  They will do what they always do in return, laugh up their sleeves as they rake in the dough and get re-re-re-elected and do what they've always done.

    Your pain, my pain, the country's pain, doesn't have a place in their world.  They literally couldn't care less about the Constitution, Bill of Rights, hurting Americans being dumped by the shitpile economy, hurting Americans in NOLA, hurting Americans losing healthcare coverage left and right.

    In the end it doesn't matter because you WILL vote for them and you WILL give them a lot of money.

    Reichstag fire is to Hitler as 9/11 is to Bush

    by praedor on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:26:47 PM PDT

  •  Great work (6+ / 0-)

    As awful as we all feel right now, I guess there's some comfort in knowing that we are not alone in our sense of despair.

    That's the feeling I had wanted to convey in a diary I wrote earlier today. Although ultimately not as hopeful as nightprowlkitty's excellent piece, it's a fairly accurate snapshot of my own rather unhappy frame of mind at the moment.

  •  Prescriptions For Pain (3+ / 0-)

    Well done, Nightprowlkitty. Another fine piece of writing from you!

    There are so many responses we can have as humans to pain:

    We can withdraw, curl up into our own little corner of the world, feel alone in our misery, and suffer miserably.

    Or we can, and often do, numb our pain with spirits, mask it with drugs, or hide it away with medications.

    Or we can, though we don't often enough, work tirelessly to find the source of our pain, to name it, to find our own power over it, and, in the process of all this, reap rewards of comfort and happiness from our efforts.

    Okay, maybe a little bit too New Age so far, but my point, belabored as it is thus far, is that if any among us choose either to withdraw from this latest pain, or sedate ourselves from it, then those with the power gain just that much more power, and we'll all be just that much closer than we already are to losing our country

  •  The facade (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiaD, Nightprowlkitty, Noor B, Clio2

    Every time I read a thread these days I come across the phrase Kabuki Theater. That is what is wearing my patience thin. I am really tired of the actors and actresses. The politicians are really not good at acting and what they can't seem to grasp is that the majority of Americans not longer believe their BS - any of them. This disconnect is bi-partisan.

    It's OK, though, because I really believe that if they keep up The Act, eventually the audience will quit playing along and Their Gig will crumble. And all of the actors and actresses will be standing naked on the stage. Thanks to the tubes!

    Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has had to overcome. Booker T Washington

    by Spoonfulofsugar on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:43:47 PM PDT

  •  As always, thanks Kitty. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, SeaTurtle
    Most days I don't know how to even start fixing the dehumanization of this country.  Mostly I start small, making sure my neighbors have the help and happy times I can offer.

    May it be better for us all.

    Nanotechnology can take atmospheric CO2 and make diamonds and fresh air. LouLost.com

    by Crashing Vor on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:45:47 PM PDT

  •  It's not over (3+ / 0-)

    Every fax, every phone call makes a difference.  Support the politicans the politicans who do what's right, yell at the ones who don't, and then elect better legislators.  That is how we are going to win.  That is the only way we are going to win.

    This may get worse before it gets better.  But it will get better, because we will make it better.  

    Democracy means we don't have to depend on legislators who abdicate power because they hate summer school and don't like being called names.

    We can get new ones.

    So, I called my rep (and nagged the roommate as well).  Have you called yours?  It's easy.  Just pick something from this well-written diary, or any of the awesome comments, and read it to whoever answers the phone.  

  •  I think we all feel about the same. (0+ / 0-)

    But, remember that this is what bush wants us to feel. Beaten. So mope around and kick the can and tomorrow, get up and get the fight back. bush will not win this fight!

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:51:51 PM PDT

  •  Thank you (7+ / 0-)

    because you have painted a clear picture of what it feels like to be alienated in America today.  I fit in several of the categories you listed.

    I had a dentist appointment last week.  I cried before I went.  Not because I'm dentist-phobic.  But because I was going to have to risk humiliation, once again, explaining to yet another health care professional that I cannot afford the treatment I need, and possibly listening to their prim lectures.

    Our representative sure as hell aren't representing me.  They aren't helping make my life better.  I have a fairly good idea of whom they are representing, though.   And I'm ready to do something about it - I have very little left to lose by defending the status quo.  Only, I guess, my chains.

  •  Nightprowlkitty, your (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    decca, RiaD, Noor B, Clio2
    diary captured exactly how I feel about the situation in DC.

    This morning, I was thinking about how it hurt to see our Constitution going up in flames; how it hurt to realize that the dems simply will not step up to the job that needs to be done; how it hurt to feel betrayed by the people I've supported.

    The dems aren't even forcing small concessions; bush just stomps his feet and has a tantrum, and the dems cave.

    I really think it's over for the US and the Constitution.  While Kos has ridiculed the notion that there won't be a change in administrations come 2009, I have to agree with a writer of an article on another website who said that bushco is not going to give up power.

    Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:08:29 PM PDT

    •  that's why we have to win in a landslide (0+ / 0-)

      and what candidate can do that?
      Those familiar with my blogs will know that based on my knowledge of history AND the American psyche that it is only John Edwards.  Once we unite behind him, they will have no dirt to throw.

  •  Why do we care? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, SeaTurtle

    Because we thought they were for us, not for Bush.

    We may have to impeach the house and the senate before we can impeach Bush and Cheney.

  •  No more contributions for Democrates (6+ / 0-)

    I will no longer contribute to the Democratic party. This law, and this vote, is why I gave so much money and worked for Moveon.org in the last election. I believed that getting Democrats into a majority would prevent this shit from happening.

    All that has happened is that I have been made a fool, and my friends have been made a fool.

    Democrats, you are on notice, no cash from me, and I am now going to work actively to divert cash from you, and any presidential candidate, until the bullshit FISA law you voted for is repealed by YOU!

  •  How can pain not make you angry? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    decca, feduphoosier, Noor B, Matt Z, SeaTurtle

    If someone came up with a hard heavy object and smashed it in your face, yes, you'd be in pain, but you'd also be angry as hell.

    What do you think Bush has done, and is doing? Everything you described is pain created deliberately, viciously, maliciously by the Bush Adminstration. They are hurting us, the Constitution, America, the environment, and the world. They enjoy doing so. They will continue to do so. They will do more. They will continue until everything they despise is beaten into submission or death. It's sociopathic and criminal and intolerable.

    I get chastised for using the rape analogy, and I will not do so as to show consideration for those who have survived it. So I'll use the 'smash in face with brick' analogy above.

    We are being hurt. We can lay down and say 'Okay, do more' or we can fight back.

    I see goddamned little fight back around here. It makes me even angrier.

    •  This diary isn't about ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Noor B, doctorj2u, Matt Z, SeaTurtle

      ... what Bush and his minions have done, which makes me very angry indeed, just as angry as you are, bv.

      I wish I could tell you why I decided to write about the pain itself, the pain engendered by the Dem cave-in over the FISA bill.  I wasn't thinking about my anger towards Bush when I wrote this.

      I was thinking about so many Americans who are hurting, in such pain.  I was thinking especially about those in NOLA (because that's what I've been most attentive to in my blogging), folks who not only are being shafted by the federal government, but by their state and local governments as well.

      And I was thinking about why this pain was so different than any other pain I've felt this past six years, and began to see it was not just this one act, the capitulation over FISA, but a cumulative effect over too many years of this kind of action.

      I see your anger.  I've written diaries about my anger as well and I will never stop fighting against these yes, rapists, I think that's a very accurate term.

      I don't know why this diary got rec'd or even why I felt so strongly about it to write about the pain itself.  It is what it is.

  •  My fear... (9+ / 0-)

    ...comes from being so dependant on government programs just to live.  When I heard a friend of mine get behind the program to eliminate Medicare and Medicaid as needless (with me in the wheelchair sitting RIGHT THERE) and that the churches should take over taking care of people, I got a cold, cold chill.

    It isn't going to be long before there's going to be a determination of who's "deserving" of treatment and who isn't.

  •  I feel your pain (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, SeaTurtle

    Thank you for putting it in such compelling words.

    =====

    Peace. It's cheaper and more fun.

    by USexpat Ukraine on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:28:58 PM PDT

  •  you said it exactly (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiaD, Nightprowlkitty, Noor B

    thank you and let's hope this diary is read and pondered upon by the shocking list of Democrats who obliged the President last night.  Let's republish that list, someone?

  •  I wonder (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, Noor B, Matt Z, SeaTurtle

    if there's anything in this legislation that would make the illegal spying they've already done legal, retroactively? Why else would the push for this come so hard, right now, just as the dam is about to burst on the whole Gonzales thing? I'm just so disgusted. The Dems should fight this to the death, not roll over like frightened puppies. This could have been an opportunity to stand up and grab Bush by the balls and say, "no". It just makes me so sick.

  •  Thank You For This... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, SeaTurtle

    ...You've put into writing what I feel, far more eloquently than I could write.

  •  Whoa (0+ / 0-)

    We're fighting a war to defend the Constitution.  This is but one battle.  The law is time limited.  Some very good Senators (Webb for one) voted for it, and he doesn't get pushed around.  I'm 62, and have lived through a lot of bad times, both personal and political. If we keep fighting, "this too shall pass."  But only if we keep fighting.

    Stop the "woe is me" thinking, and get back to work.

    •  Well ... (6+ / 0-)

      ... if you want to trust Webb, go ahead.  I like him fine but I strongly believe he is wrong on this.

      Do you really believe there is no room to talk about the pain average Americans are going through every day without characterizing it as "woe is me?"  I think it's something to keep in mind.  It doesn't stop me from fighting.

      What the Dems in the Senate did on this vote was wrong.  I don't care how you want to parse it.  What they did on the Iraq supplemental was also wrong, and there were a lot of Dems I respected who voted for that bill.  Wrong.

      I don't have blind trust in anyone, and I certainly see no reason to change that now.

      The pain is real.  It isn't a complaint.  It is real.  And I wish our representatives would get a clue to the real pain they cause both when they vote this way and when they try to justify it with  meaningless words instead of the truth.

      Oh -- and I'm no spring chicken either.  Heh.

  •  I mostly agree with you and as I have on other (7+ / 0-)

    diaries, I challenge any of the "Dirty 16," especially Webb, to explain his/her actions. I am not holding my breath however. Of my Virginia Senators and Rep, the only one who has the decency to reply to anything is Warner, whom I disagree with on almost everything.

    From past history we know that most US domestic spying will ultimately be targeted against dissenters, not against true terrorists or potential terrorists. Whether this is the intent or not, most of the folks who do this for a living just cannot help themselves. By and large they are rigid thinkers and authoritarians and conflate disagreement with treason. This has happened time and time again since WWII and has possibly never gone away.

    "Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions." U.S.Grant

    by shigeru on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:11:51 PM PDT

  •  that no one supports (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeaTurtle

    why can't we just face the fact that americans do want america to be safe?  that there are threats?  that webb is in a position to know those threats and analyse them as an expert... and then accept the explanation itself as a positive thing, and afford a little respect?

    •  Feingold is also ... (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wonmug, justmy2, realalaskan, Noor B, Matt Z, crose

      ... in a position to know those threats and analyze them and he voted against the bill.  I don't buy that argument, unless you are somehow saying it's ok to disrespect Feingold but not to argue against Webb.

      You truly believe Gonzalez is going to keep us safe?  I don't.

      I like Webb a lot and I respect him.  But I believe he is as wrong on this as he was on voting for the Iraq supplemental.

      I think all of us want America to be safe.  But at this point America, a nation of laws and civil rights, is in just as much danger from our own government as we are from terrorists.  

    •  I am unwilling to give up my liberties (4+ / 0-)

      for a little safety.  I'll sacrifice my personal property to be able to reach a place where I can enjoy my liberties.  I do not care if that love for my liberties gets me killed.  When we surrender our liberties without a quibble, the terrorists, both foreign and domestic (Shrub, Darth, Gonzo, I'm talking to YOU!!!!), they win and we lose.  I am sick and tired of them winning.  

      And I will not give appeasers and collaborators respect, not one drop.  They do not deserve it.  The Norwegians had a name for them:  quislings.  I think it fits.

      "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

      by Noor B on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 06:54:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What? n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      realalaskan

      "We do not torture." - George Bush during recent Asian visit

      by Flippant to the Last on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:15:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We have to attack Iraq (4+ / 0-)

      because the President probably knows things that are classified and can't be told to American people.  There is no way the President would lie to us or hold back information.

      Right...

      Been there done that...

      I will tell you the same thing I told many of my friends 5 years ago when I heard this silly argument...

      If there were truly a threat, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be leaked to reinforce this Administration position...but we got Chertoff gut and Alberto Gonzales word...

      how many times will the American people be willingly played like a fiddle...

      and in this case...I would like to personally know if they is some major threat over the horizon instead of Congress playing hackey sack with my constitutional rights...

      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you...then you win -- Mahatma Gandhi

      by justmy2 on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:52:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  we're the same as the chickenhawks (0+ / 0-)

    i mean, the candidates TALK about leadership
    TALK about fighting
    TALK about taking the country forward
    but they are no more willing to stand up for their beliefs
    by going to war on Bush
    than the yellow Republicans are willing to go to war in Iraq

    TALK

    I want better

  •  Makes you wonder (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SoldiersInRevolt, Noor B, SeaTurtle

    and I'm not usually tinfoil-hat wearing...but what do they have on these folks to pressure them into voting for this crap?  Just sayin'.

    "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." ~ Albert Einstein

    by BlueInARedState on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:31:46 PM PDT

  •  have to take exception to this claim (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moiv, CanisMaximus, Nightprowlkitty

    "it's like sticking a white hot poker in an already awful wound"

    because, if that was what it was, the wound would heal after a period of very intense pain.  Instead, it was like pouring pus on an already awful wound.  Most of our citizens will not notice, but it may kill us.

    Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

    by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:32:16 PM PDT

  •  another exception (0+ / 0-)

    These Americans, my brothers and sisters, are not only in grievous pain over the inhumane policies of this misAdministration, the real pain of no health care, no money, anxiety over their families ... my brothers and sisters are also in such pain over being made to feel they don't matter, they just don't matter at all.

    It is our brothers and sisters in Iraq that are in real pain, with 4% of the country dead, 16% refugees and 70% without decent water, health care, jobs, etc.

    It would be like 16 million dead, 24 million in Canada and Mexico, 24 million internally displaced and 210 million without health care, jobs, drinking water.  

    We are not suffering at all, in comparison.

    Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

    by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:35:13 PM PDT

    •  I'm not about ... (8+ / 0-)

      ... to start comparing suffering here.  Tell that to those who are struggling to survive in New Orleans.  Tell that to those who can't get health care for their children.  One kind of suffering doesn't negate the other.  I reject that kind of reasoning.

      But I do agree with you about our brothers and sisters in Iraq -- it is a stain on our country that will be with us for generations.

      •  I would tell you that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wilberforce

        there is a vastly higher percentage of the population facing a vastly higher level of suffering in Iraq.

        In places in Iraq, they can't even get their kids to the hospital or doctor.  They watch them die in front of their eyes without calling 911.  Now, that might happen for a week under an emergency conditions in the USA - but it has been going on for years in Iraq.

        400,000 were displaced by Katrina. That is less than one-tenth of one percent of the total population of the USA.  

        In Iraq, 16% of the population is displaced.

        So, there you have it in displaced person's misery index.  16% vs. less than one-tenth of one percent.  Or, Iraq has 160 times more people suffering relative to the overall population.  Or, ten times the number of people in total.

        But, is the suffering of displaced persons in the USA comparable to suffering of displaced Iraqis?

        NO.

        Iraqis ended up in tents in the desert with no water, sanitation, electricity, schools or jobs.  NOLA folks ended up in various places, but they nearly all had roofs over their heads and toilets that flush.  And the security situation was much better.  Now, some of those trailers have toxic fumes, but their kids are not bleeding to death from violence without any medical attention and their kids are not dying of diarrhea from drinking shit in the untreated water.

        Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

        by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:05:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I said ... (5+ / 0-)

          ... I'm not into comparative suffering, I think it's obscene to look at it that way.

          I have been following what we're doing to the Iraqis as much as you, dancewater.  I don't have any problem saying it is also an obscene thing.  We have no disagreement there.

          Read what you are writing, to see how foolish it is to try and compare human suffering.  You say:

          NOLA folks ended up in various places, but they nearly all had roofs over their heads and toilets that flush.  And the security situation was much better.  Now, some of those trailers have toxic fumes ...

          (emphasis mine)

          I wonder how much you know about folks from the region who have died since the storm, died in far away places but still insisted on having their corpses sent back to New Orleans to be interred there.  I wonder how much you know at all about the suffering that is still going on.

          I won't compare the suffering.  If you want to, you'll have to do it without me.

          •  Baghdad Misery Index: 117 Degrees, No Water (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SingleVoter

            Residents and city officials said large sections west of Baghdad had been virtually dry for six days. A strained electrical grid can't provide power to run water purification and pumping stations.

            ....

            Jamil Hussein, 52, a retired army officer in northeast Baghdad, said his house has been without water for two weeks, except for two hours at night. He says the water smells and is unclean. Two of his children have severe diarrhea a doctor attributed to drinking what tap water was available, even after it was boiled.

            That's the life of millions of people.  

            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

            by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:31:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And each of those millions ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              decca, churchylafemme

              ... each is one person.

              You can quote statistics to me until hell freezes over.  Each death is terrible, each individual suffering is awful.  The man who loses a leg, a child who is killed, a wife who loses her husband.  You want to compare those as well?

              You can quote statistics to me all you like.  Suffering is suffering.  Death is death.  I won't make comparisons.  Again, I wonder how much you know about the suffering here in America, the deaths, the pain and tragedy.

              It's not about statistics.  It never was.

              •  No, it is about conditions on the ground..... (0+ / 0-)

                A Week in the Death of ?????

                08/05/07 "Washington Post" -- -- -When will I die? That's the question circling in my head when I awake on Wednesday. I'm sweating, as usual. My muscles ache from another long night of no electricity in weather only slightly cooler than hell. As I dress for work, other questions assail me: How will I die? Will it be a shot in the head? Will I be blown to pieces? Or be seized at a police checkpoint because of my sect, then tortured and killed and thrown out on the sidewalk?

                ...

                On Thursday before dawn, an explosion rocks our house. I lie in bed, unable to get back to sleep, until it's time to get up for work.

                .....

                We finally make it to my father-in-law's. After dinner, we decide to sleep upstairs, but just as my head hits the pillow, there's an explosion in front of the house, followed by gunfire all around. We rush downstairs, where it's safer, and sleep on the floor. We spend another day full of nonstop explosions and gunfire at my father-in-law's before heading back home at noon on Saturday.

                So, take a guess - NOLA or Baghdad?  

                I know about the "suffering" in America.  It is nothing compared to the suffering Americans have inflicted on other people, lately Iraq among others.  But Americans are too self-absorbed and ignorant of the world to even know that.

                Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:23:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You just don't get it. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  churchylafemme, doctorj2u

                  And clearly you never will.

                  You seem to be more interested in numbers than in people.

                  If you lost a loved one, would you suffer?  Would you like it if someone came up to you at the funeral of someone you loved deeply and said, "oh why are you crying, there's people in Iraq suffering far more than you?"

                  As I said, and I am getting annoyed at having to repeat it -- I am aware of the suffering of the Iraqis and I don't need you to tell me about it.  I think most kossaks here are also aware of it and elucidate that suffering far more humanely and eloquently than you, who use these numbers as a battering ram against anyone else who dares to say others are suffering as well.

                  Your quoting of statistics does not make you either more compassionate or more aware of human suffering.  You cheapen each individual life, each suffering soul, by trying to make comparisons, while you sit in comfort typing your outrage.  The really sad thing is I have read of Iraqis who have had more compassion for the suffering in NOLA than do you.

                  I will never agree with the cold and calculating characterizations you are making by trying to compare one individual's suffering against another.  You cheapen both by this kind of rhetoric.

                  •  in your way of looking at it (0+ / 0-)

                    the pain in NOLA and the USA is comparable to the suffering in Baghdad and Iraq and both are comparable to the bridge coming down in Minn and also to watching my father die of cancer at the age of 51.

                    That is ridiculous.

                    I don't know of a single Iraqi or Iraqi blogger who think the suffering of NOLA is anything compared to what is happening to them.  

                    And I would have to say that the vast majority of Americans, and most people who read on this blog, are pretty oblivious to what the Iraqi people are going through.  And that is a reflection of American self-absorption and swallow knowledge of the world.

                     May God forgive us for what we've done.

                    Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                    by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:46:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You can say what you like ... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      decca, churchylafemme

                      ... don't make it so.

                      Especially the part that most people on this blog don't know about the suffering of the Iraqi people.  Prove that to me.  I think you are very wrong.

                      I did not say Iraqis said anything about comparative suffering -- that's your notion.  I said I've read of Iraqis who have expressed great sympathy for the suffering of folks in NOLA, something I have yet to see you do.  Seems these suffering people have a lot more compassion than you do.

                      You keep talkin about comparisons.  And I keep telling you I will never look at human suffering in the kind of comparative way you are putting forth.  You do no service to Iraqis or anyone else by making these kinds of comparisons.

                      •  Since the link didn't work (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nightprowlkitty

                        New Orleans Isn't Very Different From Baghdad!

                        "What shocked me the most in this trip was how the city looked like Baghdad. New Orleans looked like Baghdad after the war in 1991; I swear I kid you not. The devastation, empty houses, the people returning to their life in the city, the "rituals" people practice before they completely come back, the bumps in the streets and the smell of destruction [it has a distinctive smell people. Yes it does.]"

                  •  and if someone came up to me at a funeral and (0+ / 0-)

                    said "oh why are you crying, there's people in Iraq suffering far more than you?"

                    I would probably say, "I know, and I am crying for Iraqis too."

                    I've shed lots of tears for Iraqis.  

                    The suffering Americans are going through (and it will get much much worse - especially in economic areas) was brought on by their own decisions, for the most part.  I would say the attacks on 9/11 would not be included in that assessment - but, building a city on the coast without adequate flood walls?  letting bridges decay?  not providing health care for all?  letting our children live in poverty in this wealthy country?  ruining the environment?  not conserving energy? destroying our constitution and democracy?  losing troops in a senseless war? --- all of those we can blame totally on ourselves and ourselves alone.

                    Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                    by dancewater on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:52:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sad. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      decca, churchylafemme, doctorj2u

                      You've shed tears for Iraqis.  So have I.  And I've shed tears for folks in New Orleans, friends of mine.  And for suffering people in Darfur.  And for those who suffered in New York City (where I live).

                      I don't need charts and comparisons to have compassion for those who suffer.  And I don't need you or anyone else to tell me who to blame and how to feel.

                      Your characterization of Americans bringing on their own suffering, especially in the case of NOLA, is offensive to me.  It makes me wonder if you really cry at all, and if you do, if it's really not just yourself you are crying for.  Because to me it's not about blame and never will be.

                      I find your reasoning to be self-righteous and downright insulting to folks who are suffering here in America and especially in NOLA.  I think if you went there and tried to tell them this line of bullshit theorizing they would have far more cogent responses to you than I could ever dream up.

                      •  oh, they would have more responses all right (0+ / 0-)

                        and while I believe that taking off the rose-colored, self-absorbed, narcissistic glasses and taking an honest look at this country and the people who live hear and the people who they elect, is THE ONLY WAY FORWARD, well, I just hope I am wrong.  

                        Because if I am not, then the future of this country will be very, very dark indeed.

                        So, who built the levees in NOLA?  Who supervised the building? Who inspects them?  Someone from Mars, maybe?  
                        Well, whoever it was, I vote we fire them and hire the Dutch ONLY to build and rebuild these levees.  They obviously have a clue about how to do it.

                        Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                        by dancewater on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:15:02 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You show ... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          doctorj2u

                          ... a distinct lack of understanding about what happened in NOLA.

                          You don't even know who built the levees, you make false claims that the problems in NOLA were due to their being beneath sea level (and fyi, the lower ninth ward is not at all below sea level), yet you insist on bloviating your opinions about the tragedy that took place there.

                          Get educated on what really happened.  Check out the NOLA blogs, the Times-Picayune, hell check out the many excellent diaries done here at Daily Kos on the subject.

                          Are you aware that the Dutch, btw, learned from the great New Orleans engineer A.B. Wood:

                          While he spent most of his career in New Orleans, Wood also consulted and designed the drainage, pumping, and sewage systems for other locations including Chicago, Milwaukee, Baltimore, San Francisco, Ontario, Canada, as well as projects in Egypt, China, and India. His work was especially helpful in the Zuiderzee Works, which reclaimed large areas of land from the Zuider Zee in the Netherlands.

                          (emphasis mine)

                          The one who should "get a clue" is you.  Frankly, I'd rather be wearing rose-colored glasses than the remarkably distorted lense through which you are seeing issues that you clearly do not understand.

                          You know something, dancewater?  I do not believe compassion is a limited quality.  I do not believe one has to prioritize suffering in order to feel that compassion.  I disagree entirely with your perspective and would ask you to stop making claims about a subject of which you clearly know very little, claims which hurt folks and which do nothing to help those whose suffering you seem to feel negates and diminishes the suffering of others.

                          I have learned as much as I can about the suffering of the Iraqi people.  I watched intently the Congressional hearings featuring the folks who did the Lancet study and also live blogged it here at dKos.  I read as much as I can about the horrors done in our name in Iraq, the over 650,000 dead, the millions who are refugees, and yes, that is all of our responsibility to know about and fight against.

                          Perhaps you should do the same over some of the tragedies and suffering going on right underneath your nose.  If not, please don't lecture those of us who do want to know, whose compassion is not limited.

                          •  where did I say (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            suicide blonde

                            you make false claims that the problems in NOLA were due to their being beneath sea level

                            that one?

                            because I sure cannot find it...... I said they built a city on the coast without adequate flood protection.  Which they did.  I know some of the city is below sea level, I have no idea which parts.

                            and, here's a test to see what you know about Iraq - no fair looking it up.  These all happened in the last two weeks, and are all way bigger than a bridge going down.

                            what happened in the Shaab neighborhood of Baghdad?  how did the people respond?

                            what happened in the Karrada neighborhood of Baghdad?  how many times?  

                            oh, and an update on a Lancet study - being over a year old now, the Just Foreign Policy guys said that they extrapolated the Lancet date and now there are likely a million or so dead Iraqis.

                            And I know many people on this blog don't know what is happening because they argue with me when I say what the US is doing in Iraq is a genocide.  They argue that I am demeaning the suffering of others (like Rwanda and the Nazi camps - the first example is odd, because less people died in that genocide) because those examples are so much worse.

                            Which seems to be the opposite of what you are claiming.

                            My opinion that Americans are generally oblivious to what is going on in Iraq is shared by the majority of foreign English language papers that I can find, like in Europe.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 10:40:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Interesting. (0+ / 0-)

                            My assumption was that if you were complaining about "coastal" cities you were spouting the usual party line of NOLA being under sea level.  If that's not what you were saying, then I was wrong.

                            Interesting, I say, because you refuse to answer any of the rest of my comment.  I can only take that as you concede you don't know much about NOLA.

                            Agree with you about the Lancet study -- I'm aware it's over a year old and fully believe the figure is over a million now.  Just didn't want to make a claim without having the facts at hand, something you don't seem to hesitate to do.

                            No, I don't have the answers to your questions.  I try to keep up as much as I can, but don't always know the specifics, just as you clearly don't know the specifics on NOLA.  Only difference is I am not making bullshit claims about what's going on in Iraq as you are about what's going on in NOLA.  And I do try and keep up as much as I can on what's happening there -- obviously something you are not interested in as far as domestic suffering here in America.

                            I am claiming that you are wrongly trying to prioritize suffering, something which will not give the specific cause you are advocating any of the attention you feel it so urgently needs.  I don't think anyone should demean or try to prioritize the suffering of anyone -- you are indeed doing that in your own reasoning, to the benefit of no one.

                            I made no claim about the "majority of Americans."  I said the majority of folks here at Daily Kos are aware of what is going on -- as well as what is going on in Darfur.  I've unfortunately read hundreds of diaries on all sorts of topics, including NOLA, where diarists take posters here to task for not knowing enough.  I find those diaries to be unhelpful and insulting.

                            Until you know everything about suffering everywhere (an impossibility), you have no right to judge anyone else.  I get few comments on my NOLA diaries -- but I keep writing them and will continue to do so.  I have no anger or condescension towards anyone who is ignorant of what's going on there, unless they start spouting off incorrect facts over what's been happening, insulting folks who are suffering enough without lies being added to that pain.

                            I'm happy to read your or anyone else's diaries informing and educating me about what's going on in Iraq -- and I do so often.  But I completely disagree with your condescending judgments against others about what constitutes suffering and who gets to call out the priorities on this.  As I said, compassion is not a limited quality.  I find your comments suggesting otherwise.

                          •  Thanks NPK for the defense (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty

                            I feel like the expression "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."  It is people like dancewater that make me mourn for the state of the world as much as the people like Mihelle Malkin.  They know no true compassion or empathy.  All they know is politics.

                          •  well, I will stick to the position (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            suicide blonde

                            that not all suffering is created equal.  And I will make the prediction that one day you will write a post that says "I thought I knew what pain was" because things are going to get much worse here in the USA before they get better.  Nothing like what we have done unto others however.

                            I do see that some Kos posters are waking up to the fact that there is little differences between most of the Democrats and most of the Republicans.  Odd that they complain that the politicians they support are not progressive, and turn their backs on the ones who are actually progressive.

                            Like Kucinich.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 07:45:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Frankly ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            doctorj2u

                            ... what you are saying makes no sense at all.

                            As far as pain, it is downright creepy for you to make that kind of prediction and make it so gleefully.

                            Your comments here have shown you have little compassion, and I am beginning to doubt you even have compassion for the suffering of Iraqis.  It seems you are more interested in causing pain than aleviating it.

                            Poor you.

                          •  I don't make it gleefully. (0+ / 0-)

                            I make it sadly.  It is the truth, no matter how I feel about it.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 08:53:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In the context ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ... of the discussion we have been having, yes, it is gleeful, and very disturbing, both what you have chosen to say and how you have said it.

                            It's pretty clear to me you know very little, if anything at all, about what happened and is still happening in New Orleans.  Yet you feel you have the right to make comparisons even so.  You have implied that suffering is something to be prioritized, a very obscene notion, imo.  Even in the example posted of Iraqis showing compassion for Katrina victims (and it is by no means the only example I have encountered), it shows me that ones who have experienced far greater suffering than you ever have, are still able to feel compassion for others.  You only diminish yourself by behaving otherwise.

                            So no, I do not believe you when you say you make that comment sadly.  In your zeal to promote knowledge of the suffering of others you have instead exploited that suffering, and you have shown in these comments that you have lost a good deal of both your own humanity and compassion.

                            So I say again, with real sincerity:  poor you.

                          •  well, you know the right wing nuts (0+ / 0-)

                            think I am glad that Bush's war on Iraq is failing, simply because I want a failure, even if it means people suffer greatly.

                            I guess Americans will believe what they want to believe, no matter the evidence.

                            I think sometimes Americans get up in the morning, look in the mirror, declare their right to be stupid and then proceed to stay stupid all day long.

                            I have not lost my humanity or compassion, what I have lost is respect for the majority of American people.  

                            And while there are Iraqis who are sympathetic to the suffering of people in New Orleans, the majority of them feel something different towards Americans - deep hatred.  A hatred that will last for generations.  That's not a good thing for them, but I can't say that I blame them.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 08:43:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not speaking of politics here, and your response only proves what I've been saying all along, that you have indeed lost so much of your own humanity and compassion.

                            I don't think you are "glad" in a political sense.  I think that a very self-serving anger and hatred has corroded your own spirit to the point where it is more important to you than human suffering -- and your comments clearly radiate both that hatred and that self-absorption.  You say it's not a good thing for Iraqis to feel deep hatred.  I say the same about you -- and you have far less reason.

                            I have no respect at all for what you are saying here.  You are in no position to be standing in judgment on Americans or anyone else.  You can't ask for compassion and understanding from others towards what you believe is important if you have none of your own to offer.  It's clear, though, that it's unlikely you will ever understand this and will instead continue to hide behind political viewpoints and tsunamis of information used in exploitive fashion, all covering your own individual inability to let go of your own hatred and lack of compassion.

                            Again.  Poor you.

                          •  man, word for word almost!! (0+ / 0-)

                            This what I used to hear from the right wingnuts when I would tell them that we are going to lose this war and that the whole thing was a war crime.

                            They did not think of "glad" in a political sense either - and if they had, they would have been wrong. I knew full well in 2004 that bush would get re-elected, and I knew the small majority the Dems took in 2006 will not amount to much.  And the elections in 2008 will see a Dem president - who will be a lot like Bill Clinton (might even be a Clinton). Bill, btw, was the best damn republican president we ever had.

                            This war, while lost and a total evil disaster, has not hurt hardly any Republicans, thanks to the fact that the Democrats keep playing along.  And they will go on playing along until 2009 +++++

                            The "tsunamis of information" is new though.  The right wingnuts don't like information at all, I guess your beef is you don't like too much of it.

                            oh, and by the way, I don't feel deep hatred.  I mostly feel sorry for the American people, but that sorrow is a small fraction of the sorrow that I feel towards the innocent victims of this evil war that our country inflicted on them.

                            The Americans are not innocent.  They are not particularly competent or informed either, which is where most of their suffering will come from, rather than blow back (there will be some of that too).

                            And while the dems and repubs have been investing in empire and running their government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations - our country is going to fall down around us.

                            And some on Kos are starting to realize that there is hardly any difference between the dem and repub parties.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 11:48:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  just trying to be logical here (0+ / 0-)

                            don't you think if a person has a total lack of compassion they would not bother to get involved and get active?  Do you really think my activism (see my last Kos diary) is fueled by hatred and lack of compassion?  wouldn't I be watching movies or doing something fun instead?

                            I do feel some hatred for what the bush/cheney regime has done, nothing like what the majority of Iraqis feel towards Americans, however.  And I fully realize that the problems go way, way, way beyond the bush/cheney regime.

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 11:51:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In answer to both your comments: (0+ / 0-)

                            You're not being logical at all.  I repeat: this is not a political observation -- you can compare me to Hitler if you like, won't make any difference.  You've already tried (and failed) to make comparisons over folks' human suffering depending on how you choose to view how that suffering came about (and, sadly, not even knowing the circumstances, making observations based on complete ignorance), so go ahead with even more failed comparisons.

                            I'm not interested in your precognition over politics from 2004 to 2008.

                            I think that whatever compassion and humanity you may have once had has become distorted and yes, you are indeed hiding your lack of those human qualities behind activism, hiding behind politics, hiding behind disseminating information over others' suffering -- not your own, but others' -- exploiting that.  I think you are hiding behind all of this.

                            But as John Lennon once said, and I see you as a perfect example of it:

                            One thing you can't hide
                            Is when you're crippled inside.

                            Which is why I add:

                            Poor you.

                          •  no logic in that response (0+ / 0-)

                            and bringing up Hitler does not even make any sense

                            Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

                            by dancewater on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 07:37:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  All I see is hate in you. nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty
                          •  You know, doc, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            doctorj2u

                            I think I have to agree with you, though I tried to see it every other way.

                            I think there are some folks who thrive on others' suffering, who get actual pleasure rubbing folks' faces in it.  I think this poster is one of those kind of people.

                            It's tragic.  I see hate, too, and it is very ugly.

            •  This Baghdad citizen differs with your opinion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nightprowlkitty

              http://twentyfourstepstoliberty.blog...
              Titled "New Orleans Isn't Very Different from Baghdad!"
              Keep looking at the evil across the oceans if you want, but there is true misery in your own backyard.  But many Americans on both sides of the political fence could care less, or beyond that , are openly hostile to our survival.  Talk to us about pain; talk to us about hurt;talk to us about disappointment and disillusionment.  It seems some citizens of Baghdad understand us better than our own citizens.

  •  History (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clio2

    I remember the McCarthy Era and the time immediately after Nov. 1963. The most repressive periods I recall.

    We're still in a better state now, I think.

    During the Cold War it wasn't terrorism we were afraid of....it was nuclear annihilation. Total.

    The answer is for us to become the elected officials and the biggest donors. ....and the media.

    As for eavesdropping, they've been doing it all they want anyhow.......but I still don't understand this FISA vote at all.

    I look forward to some Webb constituents reporting back to us on what he says.

  •  To assume... (0+ / 0-)

    ...that pain has come about in the past six (6) years is a naive notion. The pain described has been centuries in the making, and even LBJ's Great Society didn't help the way it was intended. It is wrong to think that handouts will ease it, when in fact it is education followed by good jobs that will solve it.

    "Always be diplomatic when arguing an opinion." Saint Rose, dePere, circa 1544.

    by pere on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:12:43 PM PDT

  •  It took the Movement Conservatives (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty, Matt Z

    ...30 years before they could claim success (1964-1994).  Don't give up on the Dems.  We need to make 2008 a bumper crop year for Progressives.  We can start by actively figuring out how to get rid of the worst offenders.  I'm not going to point fingers, because it's up to the activists at the state level to figure out who really needs to go.  

    I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused

    by jds1978 on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:18:39 PM PDT

  •  The House is NOW (3+ / 0-)

    on the FISA Bill (8:30 EST ). You can see it on CSPAN.

    Can someone do a loveblog. I have used my diary for the day

  •  Feel the same way (2+ / 0-)

    we'd better be working for a Presidential candidate who will change things. It means everything. It will be an up hill battle.

  •  It bears repeating: (4+ / 0-)

    The Democratic Congress can either impeach and remove this crimiinal administration or become participants in their crimes.  It reall is that simple.

    At present our Democrats are choosing to join in the BushCo crime spree.  We need lots of new Democrats to run in '08.  The weasels who caved to Mr. 26% need to be retired.

    The Long War is not on Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran. It is on the American people.

    by Geonomist on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:24:00 PM PDT

  •  sad and depressed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ctsteve, Nightprowlkitty

    It's terrible to see what they've done to our country. It causes my husband and myself great pain. Thank you for expressing so well what we've been feeling, Nightprowlkitty. I'll let him know that others share our pain.

  •  This is some good stuff, NPKTY. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty

    You're right on as usual.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:38:25 PM PDT

  •  Also the pain of being a coward (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty

    who just got his ass handed to him by a 28% Commander Guy with the IQ of a brain-damaged chimp.

    I know if I had just signed away the constitutional liberty of Americans to the Bush administration, I'd rush back to my home state, load the gun, and blow my head off.  It would be the only way to restore even a glimmer of honor.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:40:42 PM PDT

  •  as usual, kitty, you take the feelings and (3+ / 0-)

    thoughts and give them expression. thank you.

    namaste /\

    VirginiaforEdwards.org - Turning VA Blue in 2007 and Beyond

    by edgery on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:40:51 PM PDT

  •  The pain today was a bit (3+ / 0-)

    more painful than the others we have endured when the Dems have capitulated.

    I was driving home from work this evening when I saw a crappy 10 year-old Toyota with a fucking 'W' sticker on it.  And something just snapped in me...I was on the freeway going a little over 70 mph.  I pulled up along side this car and waited until he looked over and then I mouthed the word, ASSHOLE, so clearly and distinctly.  

    And then I drove off.  I've have had it.  We're on our own now.  

    I think I actually scared the little asshole.

  •  Take Action (0+ / 0-)

    Don't Put Your Trust in Politicians

    We need to build our liberal muscle. If we are going to the beach, we need to be able to stand up to bullies and right now Bush just kicked sand in our face.

  •  The answer, if you are willing to accept i (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wonmug

    Nor...have I seen any real explanation from them as to why they are taking this route.

    Because they believe you will still vote for them....they don't believe you have an option, so they do as they please...

    it is tough to hear...but until the status quo changes...they will continue to disappoint you...

    Enough...

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you...then you win -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by justmy2 on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:44:52 PM PDT

  •  this latest FISA cave-in... (4+ / 0-)

    has just about done me in.  I find myself turning away from the blogs in the last two days because, well, my heart is breaking for my country.  I grimly accepted the cave-in on the war, but this last cave-in seems so unconscionable, so willfully idiotic, so callously destructive, so CRAVEN.

    Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

    Craven \Cra"ven\ (kr?"v'n), a. [OE. cravant, cravaunde, OF. cravant? struck down, p. p. of cravanter, crevanter, to break, crush, strike down, fr. an assumed LL. crepantare, fr. L. crepans, p. pr. of crepare to break, crack, rattle. Cf.  Crevice, Crepitate.]
      Cowardly; fainthearted; spiritless. ``His craven heart.''    --Shak.

    Craven \Cra"ven\, n. [Formerly written also cravant and cravent.]
      A recreant; a coward; a weak-hearted, spiritless fellow. See Recreant, n.

            King Henry. Is it fit this soldier keep his oath?
            Fluellen. He is a craven and a villain else. --Shak.

      Syn: Coward; poltroon; dastard.

    Craven \Cra"ven\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Cravened (-v'nd); p. pr. & vb. n. Cravening.]
      To make recreant, weak, spiritless, or cowardly. [Obs.]

            There is a prohibition so divine, That cravens my weak hand.                                    --Shak.

    oh, I'll be back fighting in a few days, but this craven Congress has broken my heart.

    (Insert witty quotation or pithy truism of your choice here.)

    by marjo on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:54:22 PM PDT

  •  why they voted for it (0+ / 0-)

    Initially, I was puzzled about why so many Democrats voted for the bill.  The puzzle was:

    1. The Democats are opposed to it in principle.
    1. Bush is in such a weak bargaining position (Mr. 25% approval)

    But then I started to think that both premises were wrong.

    1 is wrong because the Democrats just want to be re-elected--like most politicians, and so they voted in the way that they thought would help them most for their re-election; for many of these folks the undecided voter is middle of the road, and while the middle of the road voter now dislikes Bush, due to all his huge mistakes, depending on the state the middle of the road voter's view on "national security" vs. civil liberties may go one way or the other.

    2 is wrong because Bush's extreme unpopularity does not necessarily translate into a weak bargaining position.  First, he doesn't have to worry about re-election.  Nevertheless second term presidents somethimes worry about what other people think now or will think in the future (their "legacy"), but the second thing is that Bush is so unpopular that "when you ain't got nothing, you ain't got nothing to lose."  Third, stubborness is a Bush personality trait.

    So perhaps that explains it.  Many of the Democrats don't really care about the civil liberties and actually lawlessness; they just care about re-election.  Secondly, despite being very unpopular, Bush is not in a weak bargaining position.

  •  My back hurts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty

    You want to hear about a headache...?

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 09:57:50 PM PDT

    •  Seiously, though....A little perspective (0+ / 0-)

      Seriously, though. Forgetting about Mel Brooks for a minute...I'm sorry that the Congress did capitulate on FISA. I have more respect for the Constitution than that. But, does anyone really feel that THEIR rights have been seriously compromised by this? OK, so someone at the NSA might be reading my email, or they might eavesdrop without a warrant. I don't expect to be discussing any plans for terrorist acts (just for the record, if anyone's reading this -- that's not because I'm being careful -- it's just because terrorism isn't something I do). So, I guess I'm not feeling so deeply pained here.

      I'd rather the Administration viewed the Constitution with the same reverence I do. For that matter, though, I wish the Supreme Court had a similar regard for the venerable line of jurisprudence that previous Courts have established in interpreting that majestic document. Frankly, I wish the whole lot would go away. I hope the Democrats run the Republican hacks out of office, and control things long enough to take away the stranglehold that hack conservative justices have on the Supreme Court. And, if the passage of this bill is a necessary evil to endure on that road -- bringing us a step closer, rather than representing only a step backwards, then I can live with it -- without all the sturm und drang agonizing and recriminations about Democrats, who have their eyes on the prize.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:00:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For the record... (4+ / 0-)

        As an American citizen who regularly phones overseas for legitimate business reaons, I DO feel like my rights have been seriously compromised by this.  Not because I think altering FISA will cause the administration to introduce any new spying program, but because this change condones what this administration has been doing illegally for the past 5+ years.

        And if you don't understand the big picture implications of this cave-in, I'd suggest you reread your history.  If you think that this administration has the decency to restrict their eavesdropping only on terrorist, then you've not been paying much attention over the past few years.

        Wishing the whole lot would go away is not going to get us anywhere.

        •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Subterranean

          Of course, they're not limiting their eavesdropping to terrorists. That wouldn't even be possible, since they would have to listen first to find out if folks are up to no good. If they were eavesdropping only on known terrorist planners, the warrantless surveillance wouldn't be an issue, because it wouldn't proceed without warrants.

          I'm not saying I think the warrant requirement is a bad thing. I don't think it's a good thin that the government thinks it can monitor just about anybody and everybody -- because I don't trust the governemnt to handle that kind of power. Even if there weren't "abuses," it's problematic to have that kind of power. One may think that one is doing the right thing, but we each act without any perspective. I was just trying to provide a little perspective on the issue. Your rights may have been compromised, but "seriously" so? How are you adversely affected?

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:44:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Easy there, mr. brainiac (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty, Matt Z

            Your not supposed to think, your supposed to be frightened.  They're out to GET YOU!  Give The Decider whatever he needs to go after the bad guys.  If you don't a cute baby may be killed and eaten by swarthy evildoers!

            Jesus, "perspective"?  Get a grip, man.  Teh evildoers are coming!  If your not doing anything wrong, what do you care if they arrest, waterboard, and imprison you indefinitely?  At least the children will be safe.

            "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

            by Subterranean on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 12:43:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty, Clio2

            back in the day when everything was black and white, the government liked to spy on journalists, unions, political rivals, civil liberty leaders, peace activists, and general rabble rousers, followed with infiltration and black mail. Also see: COINTELPRO

            So you tell me if you're comfortable with that happening again. You'll probably be fine, as long as you keep your head down and don't do anything to call attention to yourself. In fact, I think most Americans agree with you that it's just no big deal. A great majority would be supportive of what Congress did today. They'd read this board and be really confused what all the fuss is about.

            "History may not repeat itself, but it rhymes a lot." -- Mark Twain

            by marshmallow on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 01:11:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think your "perspective" ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            ... is seriously flawed.

            And I think the kind of reasoning you are putting forth is exactly what has caused us to be at the place we are now.

            It's not "sturm und drang" FischFry.  That is an incorrect characterization.  And it's not about having one's "eye on the prize."  I find that to be a cynical interpretation of what is now taking place in our country.

            Our Constitution was once just an idea, and yet people fought and died for that idea.  Just an idea.  This idea is very precious to so many people, and it is indeed painful to see our Constitution subverted in this way.  That's not sturm und drang, it's real pain.

            Many of our representatives feel that pain as well, and spoke passionately against the passage of this bill.  Not because they felt personally threatened by surveillance but because they feel the Constitution is worth fighting for, and they are aware that freedoms given away are not easily taken back.

            Given your reasoning, I shouldn't care what happens in, say,  New Orleans, or Minneapolis, hell it doesn't affect my day to day life, so why all the fuss?  For me, life just doesn't work that way.

            •  That doesn't follow (0+ / 0-)

              You say I'm suggesting that you should only care about what affects you. Not at all. My point is that this doesn't really affect anyone. You're talking about surveillance that is meant to be conducted covertly. It happens without your knowing for that is the very point of it. If people are arrested as a result of the surveillance, one would have to assume that something came up in the surveillance that raised serious questions...which is a damn sight better than rounding people up on the barest suspicions or accusations, which was already happening. I'm not trying to defend the program, and saying it's going to make things better in that regard. It's just not going to make it any worse...I can hope that it will improve the ability to prevent any attacks, but mostly I think it won't make a rat's ass worth of difference, since real terrorists  will choose ways to communicate that will not be revealed in wiretaps. It's just politics, and real lives won't be (knowingly) impacted.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:32:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  NPK: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty

    the diary was anything BUT incoherent.  you said a great deal of what i feel.  

    i feel odd saying thank you.

    i'll just rec the diary and step back from the lap top.

    _________________________________

    "Sileann do chara agus do namhaid nach bhfaighidh tú bás choíce."

    -8.25, -6.15

    by dadanation on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 02:21:22 AM PDT

  •  All they can lose is their seat! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nightprowlkitty

    While citizens are dying, without health insurance, unemployed, losing hope etc.

    The stakes are high, aren't they.

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