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Today's Boston Globe contains three poems taken from a new book of poetry by prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.  The book is "Poems from Guantánamo: The Detainees Speak," and is edited by Marc Falkoff.  Its contents were screened by the Pentagon.

Jumah Al Dossari

Jumah al Dossari, a 33-year-old Bahraini national, is the father of a young daughter. He has been held at Guantánamo Bay for more than five years. Detained without charge or trial, Dossari has been subjected to a range of physical and psychological abuses, some of which are detailed in "Inside the Wire," an account of the Guantánamo prison by former military intelligence soldier Erik Saar. He has been held in solitary confinement since the end of 2003 and, according to the US military, has tried to kill himself 12 times while in the prison. On one occasion, he was found by his lawyer, hanging by his neck and bleeding from a gash to his arm.


Take my blood.
Take my death shroud and
The remnants of my body.
Take photographs of my corpse at the grave, lonely.
Send them to the world,
To the judges and
To the people of conscience,
Send them to the principled men and the fair-minded.
And let them bear the guilty burden, before the world,
Of this innocent soul.
Let them bear the burden, before their children and before history,
Of this wasted, sinless soul,
Of this soul which has suffered at the hands of the "protectors of peace."

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:24 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  So sad. (16+ / 0-)

    So sad that these idiots that run our government purport to speak for "us".  When will the nightmare end?

    "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." ~ Albert Einstein

    by BlueInARedState on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:15:45 AM PDT

    •  Our collective nightmare in America will end (4+ / 0-)

      when the American people flex their collective will against their government, for our government is acting against our will.

      New national holiday: Freedom Day 1/20/2009 (too, too far away from today)

      by 4Freedom on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 10:05:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see little difference between this regime ..... (6+ / 0-)

        ........and the nazi regime.  It's disregard for habeus corpus, the U.S. Constitution and U.S. laws, the Geneva Conventions as well as other international laws that we have co-signed and its encouragement of the use of torture all smack of a fascist regime and are completely alien of all that this country is supposed to stand for.

        •  I remember when I was pregnant and went to a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          wine-tasting. Since I wouldn't drink, the thought occurred to me and I said to my husband, "I feel like a German", thinking about how Germans must have felt traveling around Europe right after WWII. They must have felt somewhat as uncomfortable and out of step as I did at the wine-tasting.

          Now, American I am, I understand the true meaning of "I feel like a German", because feeling like an American feels pretty lousy. Events in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the American and Iraqi families of the fallen and wounded have made feeling like an American a very uncomfortable feeling.

          New national holiday: Freedom Day 1/20/2009 (too, too far away from today)

          by 4Freedom on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 07:23:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  If you want to be really saddened... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlueInARedState, kyril

      Check out Jane Mayer's article on CIA blacksites here:

      And Marty Lederman here:

    •  I thought this quote was the best... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RaulVB, BlueInARedState

      "Send them to the principled men and the fair-minded."

      This administration wouldn't recognize what is fair, decent and in accordance with human rights if they were raped by them.

      At some point this administration has got to stop torturing people and respect prisoners inalienable human and constitutional right to privacy/to be free of all cross-gender search and surveillance in their living quarters. Any other standard is just plain wrong and abusive and amounts to war crimes under Geneva!

      I wouldn't be surprised if this administration took the "principled" view that they could engage in warentless surveilence of dark skinned people and called it "fair", but of course they cannot because we have a constitution and they can't legally take the view that women have privacy rights and men don't because we do have a constitution, however someone needs to call them on it.

      Honor bound to defend freedom. Freedom is long-standing army regulations.

      by RichardG on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:59:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's heart-breaking... (34+ / 0-) think we've turned into the inspiration for the Anne Franks of the 21st century.


    by Lupin on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:15:50 AM PDT

  •  Did anyone on the Candidates speak about Gitmo (9+ / 0-)

    or did any of them answer " The Question" ? After reading the poems, it only made me want to know the answer even more.

    -8.63 -7.28 Ask " The Question "

    by OneCrankyDom on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:17:41 AM PDT

  •  Oh well (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    David Boyle, junta0201

    just another minor detail in the Democratic Party-supported civil liberties destruction machine. Atleast I know where to go to find morbid poetry.

    Kos + Democratic Party = no civil liberties for you.

    by LandSurveyor on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:18:17 AM PDT

  •  perhaps all of "our brave men and (9+ / 0-)

    women" in Congress need a copy of help remind them WHY THE HELL WE ELECTED THEM.

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think...

    by left my heart on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:18:19 AM PDT

  •  America is Sowing Seeds (15+ / 0-)

    that will be reaped in the future...

    What seeds are those in the wind, and what bitter harvest shall they yield when ripened?

    I sure as hell don't wanna find out, to be honest...

    "We are all of us broken, only some more-so than others..." TMWNP

    by TheManWithNoPoint on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:18:50 AM PDT

  •  Presumption of Guilt... (5+ / 0-)


    George W. Bush... wiretapping the Amish since 2001...

    by ThatSinger on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:19:09 AM PDT

  •  Posting during the YearlyKos brunch? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

        What a hard worker!!! ! !!

  •  Prisoner without a name (21+ / 0-)

    Cell without a number.  Isolate people for years.  No calls.  No visits.  No lawyers.  No charges.  No real trial.  No one can be treated like this in any city jail or state penitentiary.

    Most words of the Bill of Rights, Amendments 4, 5, 6 and 8, protect the rights of persons accused of crime.  When did we repeal these Constitutional Amendments?  Or is the Second Amendment the only one that matters anymore?  

    We are losing our right to criticize the Robert Mugabes of the world.

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

    by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:21:03 AM PDT

  •  Architecture is not justice (14+ / 0-)

    thank you for the link.  This passage from Sami al Haj was what I found most arresting.

    They have monuments to liberty
    And freedom of opinion, which is well and good.
    But I explained to them that
    Architecture is not justice.
    America, you ride on the backs of orphans,
    And terrorize them daily.

  •  Now when Republicans talk as if detainees are (7+ / 0-)

    less than human you can kindly direct them to Falkoff.

  •  If that's an example (4+ / 0-)

    of work that passed being "screened by the Pentagon," I wonder what the ones rejected were like?

    That is a very powerful indictment of the Cheney-Bsh administration and of American citizens for letting Guantanamo happen at all.

    Now that the subject's been raised, here's a deepdown fear for January 2009:

    Assuming that a Dem is elected president and is allowed to assume the office, how will s/he (and we) know if all the nasty little secrets of prisons and gulags and torture chambers have been handed over so that they can be exposed and ended?

    I think it's entirely possible that the current regime would keep at least some of its dirty secrets and set up even more of a shadow government, continuing to do its vile work.

    I hope that's not true, that it's only despair over yesterday's Fisa vote speaking. But I dunno . . .

    The degree to which you resist injustice is the degree to which you are free. -- Utah Phillips

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:24:28 AM PDT

  •  Thank You, Miss Laura n/t (5+ / 0-)

    We live in the age of the elected dictatorship and liberal states without democracy, write accordingly.

    by Nulwee on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:27:14 AM PDT

  •  How and why did this get published? (14+ / 0-)

    I think it's great that it did, but how did it come to be?

    The newspaper article doesn't have anything about it.

    HERE is a discussion of it

    Since 2002, at least 775 men have been held in the U.S. detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. According to Department of Defense data, fewer than half of them are accused of committing any hostile act against the United States or its allies. In hundreds of cases, even the circumstances of their initial detainment are questionable.

    This collection gives voice to the men held at Guantánamo. Available only because of the tireless efforts of pro bono attorneys who submitted each line to Pentagon scrutiny, Poems from Guantánamo brings together twenty-two poems by seventeen detainees, most still at Guantánamo, in legal limbo.

    If, in the words of Audre Lorde, poetry "forms the quality of light within which we predicate our hopes and dreams toward survival and change," these verses—some originally written in toothpaste, others scratched onto foam drinking cups with pebbles and furtively handed to attorneys—are the most basic form of the art.

    Obviously it's amazing we have this level of freedom to dissent but it's something about the Pentagon allowing this that sticks in my brain.

    Or is it that some form of the "Constitution" retains vast power that somehow magically compels the warmongers at the Pentagon to cooperate or else?

    It's not like they absolutely HAD to allow this, is it?

    They break all sorts of rules, stonewall, lie, do what they want anyway, but here they cooperated and allowed this dissent to be published.

    It would not seem to be in their self-interest to perpetuate their image of torturers and of Gitmo as America's Most Famous concentration camp where death and torture DO happen.

    IS the Pentagon saying "stop us please"?

    PR stunt?

    •  Jumah al Dossari (9+ / 0-)

      I'm thinking that these poems have made it out because the Pentagon knows that statements like these don't resonate with the American public nearly has much as they should.  If we gave a **** Guantanamo would have been demolished years ago.

      The work these lawyers have done is amazing and they've done their best to let the rest of us aware of what is going on there.  Jumah al Dossari, has, I believe, very recently been released. His story was "out there" for years prior. He was never charged with a crime.

    •  We do live in a contradictory ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Topaz7, Nulwee, flumptytail, kyril, eh?

      •  No kidding! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Possibly the most contradictory country ever, IMO.

        I don't understand how a poem like this can be released, yet restrictions are in place for these men in every other way. Glad as I am that it got out.

        "Of course your need to consume is an exception due to your incredibly challenging circumstances."

        by Topaz7 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:59:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Shout out to The University of Iowa Press (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      EmilyD, dancewater, kyril

      The Prison Poets Of Guantanamo Find a Publisher

      Military Security Clears 22 After Checking for Code;
      What's Lost in Translation

      Established in 1969, the University of Iowa Press publishes books that fill the needs of scholars and students throughout the world, poetry and short fiction, and works of creative nonfiction. As the only university press in the state, Iowa is also dedicated to preserving the literature, history, culture, wildlife, and natural areas of the Midwest.

      For scholars and students, we publish reference and course books in the areas of archaeology, American studies, American history, literary studies, literature and medicine, theatre studies, and the craft of writing.

      For general readers, we publish the winners of the Iowa Short Fiction Award and the Iowa Poetry Prize, poetry anthologies, books on the archaeology and natural history of the Midwest, cookbooks, letters and diaries, biographies, memoirs, regional history, and collections of historic and contemporary photographs.

  •  Why is this being allowed? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dancewater, 4Freedom, flumptytail, kyril

    There is no room for a gov't to illegally hold people in prisons, take away habeas corpus, as well as their right to a trial. What gets me even more is that they have secret prisons like this in eastern europe

  •  Our Iraqi allies forced to use separate toilets (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shermanesq, paige, Topaz7

    Not to conflate the prisoners at Guantanamo with our Iraqi "allies," but this is just another example of the US treating others like shit.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:41:16 AM PDT

  •  Man's inhumanity to Man (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shermanesq, ichibon, Topaz7, flumptytail, kyril

    continues. All this for oil.

    I am an adult, I know it happens, but it doesn't stop me from feeling nauseous when I read this. Thank you for sharing.

    The Hague is a great retirement place.

    by ohcanada on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:41:55 AM PDT

  •  Lyrics... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RaulVB, Topaz7, 4Freedom

    O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

  •  My gut reaction to this is... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RaulVB, Topaz7

    Double it!

    We need double the suffering.

    Double the injustice.

    Double the ill will.

    The answer to a cry for help like this is to Double Guantanamo, don'tcha know!

    How else can we keep our Homeland safe?

  •  Was the Pentagon absolutely ... (9+ / 0-)

    ...certain that there weren't any coded messages to al qaeda in that poem? I mean, couldn't these "people of conscience" he writers about be terrorists just awaiting the command to strike again when they read "let them bear the burden"?

    Thanks for this MissLaura.

    •  Whoever in the Pentagon gave approval for (7+ / 0-)

      these poems

      some originally written in toothpaste, others scratched onto foam drinking cups with pebbles and furtively handed to attorneys—

      to be released knew he would not be facing Snowflake Rumsfeld yelling "worst of the worst."

      Senator Kerry should read these poems on the senate floor and dare any on the other side of the aisle to deny the torture done to these men.

  •  Very moving (7+ / 0-)

    Now I'm off to wingnutland to see how long it takes them to accuse DailyKos of publishing "terrorist poetry."

    "When watchdogs, bird dogs, and bull dogs morph into lap dogs, lazy dogs, or yellow dogs, the nation is in trouble." - Ted Stannard

    by jrooth on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:46:44 AM PDT

  •  probably won't have much effect here (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    paige, ohcanada, flumptytail, kyril, junta0201

    in the "land of the free," but the rest of the world actually reads poetry.

    take it from boutros boutros-ghali, put down your gun & listen to bob marley

    by rasbobbo on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:47:54 AM PDT

  •  Im all for peace but: (0+ / 0-)

    Is anyone here going to tell the other side. This poor mislead prisoner has been taught to hate Äll Americans, all his life.". Any real ideas here or are we just going to lower ourselfs to name calling. "World Peace" makes a nice bumper sticker. Since the beginning of Humans there has always been wars. Without even one day of peace. If this could be achieved that would be amazing. I don't believe in ethier major party. They Both have lied to us and will keep lying to retain power. A shame isn't it.

    •  Let's assume it's true ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mftalbot, ichibon, Topaz7, kyril

      that "[t]his poor mislead prisoner has been taught to hate Äll [sic] Americans, all his life."

      How, exactly, does detaining him and others indefinitely without any meaningful due process ameliorate that?  How does waging war in Iraq on false pretenses improve that situation?

      "When watchdogs, bird dogs, and bull dogs morph into lap dogs, lazy dogs, or yellow dogs, the nation is in trouble." - Ted Stannard

      by jrooth on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:53:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We have been dropping Bombs: (0+ / 0-)

        on Iraq since 1991, Let me see how many did the President Prior to Bush drop? You missed the whole point of my comment. Both parties have done nothing in the Middle East to reduce the hate of US. If we leave the area they will go back to killing themselfs and burning our Flag. Im good with that. Just a quick question. Have any of the people commenting been to the Middle East? I think if the answer is no then you should put that on your list of things to do. The answer to the first question is at least 476 Cruise Missles. That sure made us popular. Have a nice day.

      •  OK let him go. (0+ / 0-)

        He seems to be content, he is writing poems.OK let him go back to Growing poppies and making car bombs.I don't care. We need to leave the area, Period. We probably use as much gas protecting the Mid East as we get from them. Hey I think I just came up with a way to end some of our need for Middle East Oil.It seems our Elected officals spend to much time these days investigating each other, because they have no new ideas and every four year we need to change direction. Well what if both directions are wrong. It is possible.

        •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

          Give me one shred of evidence that this prisoner had anything to do with "growing poppies and making car bombs."  That's the point of Habeas Corpus - which these prisoners have been denied.

          No argument on leaving the area - but energy independence takes time.  If we'd started seriously on it back when I wanted to (late '70s) we'd be in dramatically better shape today, but we didn't.  So we're inextricably tied to the region for a minimum of a couple of decades.

          "When watchdogs, bird dogs, and bull dogs morph into lap dogs, lazy dogs, or yellow dogs, the nation is in trouble." - Ted Stannard

          by jrooth on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 11:36:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We dont have 20 years (0+ / 0-)

            I have no evidence, but in that part of the world where he was picked up there are two major sources of income "Poppies and money for causing havic" (not going to use the "T" word) Been there seen that. This guy does not belong in custody, he was just trying to make money from the only source available to him at the time. As for two decades to leave the area, I would vote for the person that could promise in his or her first term would get us out of that area before running for reelection. I work in and around the energy industry and have been for more than three decades. At the rate China and India are increasing energy use we do not have 20 years to resolve this problem.Been there seen that too. Want to research something, check the total fuel use for keeping a foot print in the Middle East. Then total percentage of oil we get from that area. Quite an eye opener. This would be a good start for us and bad for an already troubled part of the world. Being in the energy industry for three decades, I believe we should get energy independent from the rest of the world as soon as possible. We do have other forms of energy available to us now. Also please do cuss at me, it is not nessary to do this to get your point accross. We both have the same goal, mine is just a bit more agressive than your. Have a nice day.

    •  and now he knows he should hate us (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mftalbot, Kingsmeg, kyril, junta0201

      If he's been taught to hate all Americans all his life, we've now fulfilled that prophecy, haven't we? How does this improve the situation?

      "Of course your need to consume is an exception due to your incredibly challenging circumstances."

      by Topaz7 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 10:09:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not to toot my own horn (13+ / 0-)

    too much, but I put up a diary on these poems about two and a half hours ago.

    The notion that not talking to people is somehow punishment to them is ridiculous. Barack Obama, July 23, 2007

    by litho on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 10:08:58 AM PDT

  •  The Burden of guilt does not rest .... (2+ / 0-)

    ... with those who oppose the injustices embodied in Guantanamo --- the people of conscience, the principled men and fair minded.

    The Burden of guilt lies with those who use power to bring injustices.  It rests with the Bush administration.  

  •  C'mon, people ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, junta0201

    ... what's the matter with you? Everybody in Gitmo is a TURRIST! Commander Blinky Bunnypants sez so!

  •  The Charade in a Nutshell (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This is simply a continuation of the assault on our constitutional rights which began in the first term of the old Bush the early 1980’s, it continued through his 3rd term ending in 1992 back then it was to protect us from drugs and fund illegal covert wars.  While that Bush administration was bringing drugs into this country and proving the illegal wars.  
    Please remember this: prior to the Bush Administration creating this insanely horrific,"War on Terror" from 1960-2001 (including 9/11) less than 6000 people WORLDWIDE had died in terrorist attacks

    The really sad part of all of this is that I now believe the intent from the start was simply to create world-wide terror; not prevent it.  Which would explain the tortures, secret prison, human rights violations and many of the other actions these criminals the Bush administration has perpetrated.  

    Since the charade of this phony war must be maintained the Bush administration will stop at nothing to keep it going. I’m sure lives and careers have been threatened and in some cases destroyed. It has sadly spilled over to the Democratic party.

  •  Inappropriate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I believe the prisoners at Guantanamo should be afford due process also, but poems written by the prisoners? That's a little too cozy for me.  

    I would imagine there are some individuals there that shouldn't be, which is absolutely why the detainees should get their day in court. But there are also likely many individuals there who do deserve to be in prison.  Not knowing who is who, I'm uncomfortable cheering for any poetry coming out of Guantanamo.

    •  Inappropriate? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dancewater, dharmafarmer, kyril

      Are you kidding me?

      Perhaps some of these prisoners need to be there, but we do not know that because people from this administration, who feels utter contempt for the law, is in "charge" of their legal matters and their future.

      So you are mad because this man had a little time to write in between torture sessions?

      •  We shouldn't be glorifying the detainees (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laxmatt, Doodad

        Perhaps some? Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is at Guantanamo.  There's little doubt if he stood before a civilian court, he'd end up back exactly where he started: in prison.

        Simply, I am not interested in reading the equivalent of love letters from the detainees at Guantanamo. I want them tried in civilian court, but I also hope the United States could obtain a conviction in the majority of cases.

        There is a distinct difference between supporting their right to due process and supporting them personally. Cheering on their poetry? That crosses that line.

    •  Give me a break (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      EmilyD, RaulVB, dancewater, Kingsmeg, kyril

      ERIK.This is a poem from a man who is being tortured.If you haven`t noticed,our country is subject to the Geneva Convention which is not quaint as our fool torturer,AG would have us believe.Our leaders have been breaking the law for years.
      You feel"uncomfortable cheering for any poetry coming out of Guantanamo,"but comfortable with torture and   the suspension of habeas corpus? You and folks like you amaze me.Go shopping.

      •  What, so you think you're Jesus? (0+ / 0-)

        I said all along I support the due process rights of the Guantanamo Bay detainees. But I'd like to see most of them convicted in civilian courts, not let free.

        That's why I won't read their poetry. I think most of them are there for good reason. That said, they should be in prison because a jury of American citizens convicted them, not because the executive decreed it.

        Yeah, and the dig at me that I'm some stupid drone? That was really immature. Good people can have difference of opinion.  

        I think you'd do better to be a bit more cynical. You seem to be under the impression that everyone at Guantanamo Bay is an angel. They're not. I support their due process rights... and that's it.

  •  beautiful poem (5+ / 0-)

    What a beautiful poem.  

  •  Jesus! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dancewater, dharmafarmer, kyril

    Five years without being charged...

    "Of this soul which has suffered at the hands of the "protectors of peace"

    Thanks, once again, Democrats in Congress.

    This will continue to take place until Bush leaves office and, perhaps, after he leaves.

    Thank you so very much.

  •  This reminds me so much (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    EmilyD, RaulVB, dancewater, kyril

    of the Angel Island poetry carved into internment camp walls during WW II by the Japanese to whom the US government later paid reparations.  It has the same haunting sound of anger and despair.   Poignant.  

  •  Romney wants to double the size of Gitmo (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Another reason not to vote Green in 2008.

    The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.

    by Joe B on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 01:31:51 PM PDT

  •  What this diarist fails to mention... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Doodad that Jumah al Dossari has already been released from Guantanamo and repatriated to his homeland. He is currently in Saudi Arabian custody for terrorist related crimes committed there and elsewhere in the Middle East. What is also not mentioned is that Jumah al Dossari had been arrested in 2001 in connection with the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996, was trained for Jihad in Afghanistan, joined the jihad in Bosnia, and later had been an Al Qaeda recruiter in the US. He was captured in December 2001 after crossing the Afghan- Pakistan border without any documentation or authorization from Pakistani authorities. He was leaving training camps after further training and was heading back to the U.S.

    What is also not mentioned is that Jumah al Dossari acknowledges traveling to Buffalo NY, giving a fiery speech of the type typical of inciting "Muslim rage" and rebellion at the Guidance Mosque, recruiting for jihad at the mosque, but he simply denies ever encouraging anyone to join al Qaeda or taking up arms against Western society.

    Quaint little poem that illicits emotional responses, true enough... but for this man, "...the father of a young girl", he sure spends a-lot of time traveling through the hot beds of terrorist states and terrorism laden countries, and  making "fiery speeches" in mosques in the U.S.

    "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

    by Tomzilla on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 03:33:31 PM PDT

    •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

      If that's true, a lot of people here should be embarrassed.

    •  Do you have sources for this? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RunawayRose, BobzCat, kyril

      I searched, and couldn't find anything corroborating these accusations. I'm not implying you're lying -- by any means -- but I really would like to see where you found all of this out, since reports to back up your claims didn't seem to be readily available for me.

    •  Any source for your claims? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RunawayRose, BobzCat, kyril

      Because up to date this is what we have read:

      The 32-year-old, who has dual Bahraini-Saudi nationality, was part of a group of 16 Saudis freed and transferred to Riyadh yesterday morning.

      It is understood the former detainees will remain in captivity while the Saudi authorities investigate whether they have any links to any militant organisations.

      Mr Al Dossary was held at the notorious prison camp in Cuba for more than five years without being charged or put on trial.

      He was being kept in the prison camp's mental health unit and reportedly suffered from a variety of health problems.

      According to the US military, he tried to kill himself 13 times in captivity and both his legal team and human rights activists have repeatedly expressed concern about his mental state.


      •  I can source a lot of it (0+ / 0-)

        Juma Mohammed Al-Dossari is/was suspected of recruiting the Lackawanna Six.

        Also from Wikipedia:
        Ahearn told the Buffalo News that two of the Lackawanna Six said that Al Dossary had delivered a "fiery speech" at the Guidance Mosque in Lackawanna. According to Ahearn the FBI is interested in learning whether Al Dossary may have helped fund the Lackawanna men's travel expenses.

        Al Dossary acknowledges traveling to Buffalo, and acknowledges giving a "fiery speech", but denied ever encouraging anyone to join al Qaeda.

        And I'm sure that fiery speech was just as good as his poems!

        More about the Lackawanna Six here:

        Yeah, he just sounds like an ordinary guy. Everyone gives a "fiery speech" at a mosque now and then, right?  Actually, I think I'm past due for one...

        Naivety will get you killed.

        •  Give a fiery speech (5+ / 0-)

          and spend five years in Gitmo?

          Priests and pastors give "fiery speeches" in churches all over the country. Some (i.e. Phelps) are certifiable. But those are deemed safe because they're Christian?

          Should imams in muslim communities around the country take care to be as lukewarm when speaking, lest they run afoul of peoples' anxieties?

          Is every person suspected of a criminal activity automatically guilty, without even being charged with a specific crime?

          The point being, that a little extrapolation, a bunch of speculation, a lot of projection, and a good dose of fear lead to the "better safe than sorry" conclusion you reach above. That's the kind of mentality that leads to profiling, sweeps, and secret prisons.

          "Naivete will get you killed" is the mantra of the right, making the argument that if someone looks guilty they probably are, and it's better to err on the side of caution when dealing with terrorists, rights be damned.

          Here's a quote to consider: "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

          Due process. Basic rights.

          If the government has a case, let them present it in court, give the accused the opportunity to defend himself, and follow due process. That's how it's done here.

          Until now. Because the Constitution might get you killed.

          •  C'mon! (0+ / 0-)

            I don't disagree that he should have his case aired in open court. (How many times do I have to say that to get it through the filter?) But everyone here is like "what a poor innocent man, such beautiful words."  Yeah, it's wrong that he was held for five years without charge. But is he INNOCENT?  

            This sounds like an individual who, at the very least, should have been deported.  You don't have the right as a foreign national to come to the United States and give speeches that incite violence.

      •  More information (0+ / 0-)

        Juma Al Dossary was arrested by Saudi authorities in 1996 and questioned in connection with the Khobar Tower bombings.

        A list of evidence against him is on page 13 of 26 in the pdf file.

        On page 19 is an article from the Buffalo Daily News. Multiple individuals fingered Juma Al Dossary as a recruiter for Al Qaeda.

        •  So wait a minute ... (0+ / 0-)

          you're saying we have real solid evidence against this guy and we're letting him go?

          So why do we continue to hold peole we have less evidence against?

          "When watchdogs, bird dogs, and bull dogs morph into lap dogs, lazy dogs, or yellow dogs, the nation is in trouble." - Ted Stannard

          by jrooth on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 11:42:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He was returned to Saudi custody (0+ / 0-)

            After reading the evidence, I think it is a little concerning that he was released, rather than charged. According to those court documents, there does seem to be evidence against him.  Of course, now that he is in Saudi custody perhaps they'll just provide the knife next time he attempts suicide.

      •  Afghanistan (0+ / 0-)

        Also from that court document:

        Juma Al Dossary admittedly traveled from the United States to Afghanistan in November 2001.

        OK, you say.... but his poetry is so beautiful!  He probably just wanted to be in a war zone as inspiration for his writing, right?


    •  What this comment fails to mention (6+ / 0-)

      is that the allegations made could not be proven, and thus remain alleged activities, though Tomzilla states them as fact.

      Clearly, for Tomzilla, suspicion alone is enough to render a guilty verdict.

      If the evidence supported the allegations made in the above comment, then the U.S. should have been able to make a case and try him for his crimes. Since it didn't happen, one has to wonder how strong a case they had.

      Since this comment also has no source for the information given, one wonders also where the information is coming from, and why the commenter won't reveal it.

      And herein is the crux of the problem. For some people, merely the suspicion of terrorism, despite a lack of evidence compelling enough to withstand even the slightest court scrutiny, is enough to warrant indefinite imprisonment beyond the reach of the courts.

      And apparently, they see nothing wrong with that. Scary.

  •  amazing to me that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RaulVB, kyril

    they are able to write such beauty after such ugliness in their lives.  It is also sad beyond words, and it is the truth.

    This is a vast injustice we have fostered on many people, with no hint of shame or regret.

    Kos: Bush won't cancel the next round of elections to remain in power. Me: I am not so sure.

    by dancewater on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 08:29:54 PM PDT

  •  This bleeds sadness (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    and like the song says, "Nobodie's right if everybodie's wrong...."  Where is justice, and why has the American media lost focus and touch with this brutal reality.  This is truly unsettling, and may God truly punish those responsible for the pain and horror that has been unleashed.

    London calling to the underworlds-- come out of the cupboards you boys and girls....

    by yowsta on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:32:22 PM PDT

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