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     1 in 3 people is the stunning reality of this war and no one speaks for them
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I wish to inform and hopefully to move you. I have gathered this information from various sources, UNICEF, the United Nations, WHO, medical journals and relief organizations. The figures are often based on estimates along with some verifiable reports and eye witness accounts because hard figures are difficult to gather. I tried, whenever possible to use multiple sources. Additionally, the UN places the prewar  population of Iraq at 22 million. With numbers so large they are already incomprehensible, understand  it is very likely the toll is greater than we can imagine or ever be able to document.

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You are invited below the fold where I hope we will find a sense of proportion and perspective and most of all outrage.

I am constantly astonished by the number of people who either have no clue or simply do not want to know what we have brought to Iraq with Operation Iraqi Freedom. Since 2003 nearly 3 million Iraqis have fled their country, with more than 100,000 leaving every month. The figures vary, but it is now thought the number of displaced Iraqis still in country number number in excess of 2.2 million. Every day the civil war intensifies the numbers go up exponentially.

The countries taking the largest number of refugees are Syria and Jordan. Syria is a Sunni country, a dictatorship ruled by the Baath party, with ties to terrorist groups and a poor human rights record. About half the refugees entering Syria are Christians and the rest comprised of Shia and Sunni.  Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, no ties with terrorists, with fewer human rights violations and politically better for the refugees. They will experience really for the first time how a country moves toward democracy and how representative government works. The problem is neither country can stand the strain of more than a million refugees. Jobs, food, housing, education and medical are all strained to the breaking point. We have said we will help. In first nine months of 2007 only 133 of the planned 7000 Iraqi refugees were allowed into the United States. Since 2003, the U.S. has resettled less than 1,500 Iraqi refugees.European nations like Sweden have taken thousands more.

In addition to the obvious toll on the refugees and their hosts, relief organizations report nearly half of all refugees are children. UNICEF also tells us displaced children are at the greatest risk for death, not just refugee children, but children displaced in their own country. In fact the burden of this war on Iraq's children is staggering.

UNICEF also informs 1/2 of the Iraqi population is under the age of 17, children who will ultimately suffer the most. After years of the UN sanctioned embargo and the first Gulf War Iraqi children and their mothers are chronically malnourished. Now 1 in 8 Iraqi children die before their 5th birthday. Again from UNICEF, 2003 report, of the more than 122, 000 reported deaths of children under 5 more than half are infants. Maternal mortality rates have tripled. There are 10's of thousands of orphans and abandoned children living on the streets and countryside, many left to starve. Children are hit so hard because of the lack of food, custodial parent, clean water, sanitation and lack of health services exacerbating the ravages of childhood diseases like measles.  In 2004 we spent princely $37 per capita in Iraq for medical needs.

Now there is a cholera epidemic sweeping thru Northern Iraq, it should reach Bagdad the first week of October. There are 7000 people sick now, when it hits the capitol the the number will raise dramatically and the epidemic will likely sweep south into the rest of Iraq. The sanitary facilities are in disrepair, water supplies are spotty and not clean. Water purification plants themselves may be contaminated with bacteria. The only effective way to deter the epidemic is to introduce chlorine into the water supply to kill the bacteria causing cholera. The 100,000 tons of chlorine so desperately needed to purify water systems sit on the border with Jordan not shipped because of concerns it will be used to make explosives. There are between 5 and 6 million people in Bagdad, all at risk and again children, the sick and the elderly are the most vulnerable. A cholera epidemic we are ill equipped to handle and it would seem incapable of stopping.

The dead, the best estimate say more than 1,000,000 Iraqis have perished, today an Iraqi civilian is 58 times more likely to die a violent death than before the war started. All to save them from Saddam? In the 28 years Saddam was in power he killed about a million Iraqis, it is now generally accepted George Bush has exceeded that number. In addition more than 1.5 million seriously injured, burned, blinded, maimed and broken.

Those numbers represent 7.7 million people, 35% of the Iraqi population is either dead, maimed or a refugee.

Let me try to help you wrap your mind around those numbers. 7.7 million people represents  more than the combined populations of our 10 least populous states,  D.C., Wyoming, Montana, Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Hawaii and Vermont. Twice the population of Los Angeles, roughly the combined populations of Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix and San Diego. Add a destroyed infra-stucture and on going Civil war to the deadly mix. We have no comparisons in this country, not even our own Civil War. In recent memory consider Hurricane Katrina, 1.5 million people affected with 1836 confirmed deaths, a tragedy simply dwarfed by the tragedy in Iraq.

We see the flag draped coffins and for every one of our dead there are 300 dead Iraqis, 300. For every soldier who comes back wounded and maimed there are more than 53 Iraqis just like him. The emotional toll on both is unimaginable.

I don't know how one puts this in proper context, how do you find ways to convey the monstrous enormity of what we have done. How do you get people to understand it just isn't about US, it isn't about our dead and wounded, it isn't about oil or WMDs or who is right or wrong, or freedom and democracy or any of the other excuses why we invaded or are staying. it is about the 22 million INNOCENT people of Iraq we are literally liberating to death.

EDIT:  I put many of the links in a comment down thread:  here

Now 8 million people, or almost one-third of the population  = 24 million

These are reasonably current numbers of estimated population of Iraq today. If I use todays numbers against beginning of war numbers it remains 1 in 3 but drops the percentage to 32%.  

This is only a portion of information I used, I worked on the diary off and on for 5-6 weeks. Some of these links have additional information you might find interesting, it helps to paint a more complete picture of what is happening there.

Originally posted to ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:04 PM PDT.

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  •  Recommend please (207+ / 0-)
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    SME in Seattle, Mary, JekyllnHyde, Ed in Montana, Donna Z, Alma, Yosef 52, pb, tundraman, SarahLee, AlanF, ghost2, RunawayRose, wu ming, Heimyankel, lysias, Troutfishing, iconoclastic cat, elfling, object16, bumblebums, catchawave, givmeliberty, Creosote, Dumbo, rasbobbo, ReneInOregon, bronte17, Karen Wehrstein, grassroot, blaneyboy, peace voter, stevej, lawyerDan, phild1976, vmibran, roses, javelina, slatsg, andlorr, VA Gal, thingamabob, tamandua, wonmug, enough already, splashy, sele, A Chicagoan in Naples, normal family, emmasnacker, Dr Colossus, jlynne, Sycamore, roseeriter, Dale Read, Catte Nappe, John Driscoll, Timbuk3, Liberaljentaps, Idaho Guy, Dood Abides, Brian82, walkshills, Levity, zerelda, ybruti, DrReason, Deward Hastings, kd texan, Maggie Pax, chimpwatch, skippythebox, rapala, davidincleveland, klw1963, Fabian, marina, escapee, ManOnTheBench, blueyedace2, deepfish, PBen, panicbean, Simplify, basquebob, Brooke In Seattle, NeuvoLiberal, keepinon, JoieDe, GTPinNJ, Fury, podster, Kayakbiker, blue jersey mom, hilltopper, bmaples, babatunde, Jay Elias, wiscmass, LivesInAShoe, sbdenmon, Rogneid, Ekaterin, kkjohnson, naltikriti, noweasels, lgmcp, makeitstop, surferal, Paul Ferguson, esquimaux, Jennifer Clare, trashablanca, Keone Michaels, PatsBard, zbob, DrSpalding, Ptah the Great, Ellicatt, dougymi, mango, Albatross, Junior Bug, tecampbell, uniqity, Pager, Caoimhin Laochdha, FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, Sagebrush Bob, Dauphin, Demena, ER Doc, vox humana, va dare, suspiciousmind, Stripe, RantNRaven, Mary2002, Picot verde, Granny Doc, coolsub, sasher, greatwhitebuffalo, Boadicaea, AmericanRiverCanyon, One Pissed Off Liberal, tourist305, dotdot, Cronesense, drmah, Drunkard, Trim Your Bush, Cottagerose, godislove, uniongal, army193, ColoTim, vets74, yoduuuh do or do not, Mary Mike, kath25, Owllwoman, Ticonderoga, DWG, Rex Manning, Carib and Ting, letsgetreal, Oreo, cadejo4, Newzie, jnhobbs, Brass Tacks, leonard145b, keikekaze, zorp, Recovering MSMer, willb48, Assaf, wuod kwatch, Empower Ink, bluesweatergirl, memofromturner, sima, davewill, Captain C, theloniously, dragoneyes, wayoutinthestix, spacejam, Fools on the Hill, cumberland sibyl, Johnny Rapture, hopper3011, Happy Days, Mind That, moneysmith, luckylizard, echatwa, xysea, BYw, Dude1701, fromma, goofygringirl, Brad007, FudgeFighter, Zaq, bhagamu

    If you believe this information is important, no tips. Please recommend so this diary doesn't scroll off in a few hours.

    We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

    by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:58:21 PM PDT

  •  Do you have a figure on the population now? (4+ / 0-)

    and source?  I was thinking about this today

  •  Excellent diary... (29+ / 0-)

    ...but I will mention one criticism.  Often people say, "no one speaks for them".  This isn't true - many people do, and of course many of them such as Riverbend speak for themselves.  The problem has never been a lack of speakers.  The problem has always been a lack of listeners.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:08:06 PM PDT

    •  In the sense we aren't hearing it on TV or (7+ / 0-)

      reading it in newspapers.

      We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

      by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:12:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But it has been on those mediums... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueyedace2

        ...it just has failed to make an impression, so those sources have largely given it up.

        You are right to push for more.  But it is wrong to say that Iraqis haven't been trying to speak for themselves, or that others haven't tried to get their message out.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:24:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe so but apparently the MSM (7+ / 0-)

          has pretty much given up completely because this is the first I have heard of the cholera outbreak.

          NPR has been fantastic about continuing to cover this occupation but I'm just not seeing these kind of numbers being covered anywhere else, other than on a very occasional basis.

          "...the Edwards folks do not endorse Brittany's crotch."

          by Pager on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:30:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jamie Tarabay was reporting from Diyala (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jennifer Clare

            this afternoon. One thing struck me in particular. An Iraqi local official told her that "not one dinar" had come to local police and other operations from either the provincial or central Iraqi governments. All their operating expenses were paid by the US. This fact is not accidental. It is deadly, intentional dependency we are fostering in Iraq.

            The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings. -- Julius Caesar, I.ii.

            by semiot on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:48:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Under International law they may be required to (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Robespierrette

              as the occupying nation, oh thats right we aren't occupiers.

              We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

              by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:31:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The United States, as occupying power, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ms scarlett leadpipe

                is responsible for the wellbeing of Iraqis. Iraq has a constitutionally elected government. Ergo, we are legally responsible to support that government. Instead, we are buying off local poobahs as it suits our instant needs or desires. That is what is being done on purpose. It's an old concept, actually: divide and rule.

                The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings. -- Julius Caesar, I.ii.

                by semiot on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:12:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  By my reading of what is allowed as occupier (0+ / 0-)

                  we technically could not set up said government....

                  It would hold no more legal validity then the Vichy regime during the second world war.  Under the present international legal framework established in the wake of that war, largely at the behest of the United States it is worth noting; the only body with that kind of authority would be the UN.

                  It seems to me that a lot of things are being swept under the carpet....

                •  And look at the job we are doing. (0+ / 0-)

                  We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

                  by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:42:13 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  They have given up almost completely (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Robespierrette, Pager, Empower Ink

            I am struck by how Rep. Dave Reichardt is touting the seriousness and urgency of his legislation to end the practice of inmates being able to sell what they are calling "murderobelia" on MSNBS even as I type this comment. We hear about all kinds of terribly important tripe like this all the time, but get no real efforts by these same legislators to stop the murder and maiming that our government is engaged in and enabling in Iraq.

            This is just sickening.

        •  It may indeed be a case of no one listening (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jay Elias, esquimaux

          This is something that needs to be hammered and hammered and hammered some more. Media outlets need to keep this story out front all the time. I can't help but think if we couldn't get away from the truth, it wouldn't take long before the only people in favor of the war would be W, his family and the profiteers.

          We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

          by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:33:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But this is also something we can help with.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skippythebox, ghengismom

            ...we can seek out and promote those voices, not only here, but to our friends and families.  

            I think we have something of a duty to do so.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:34:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know we have the duty to do so, it is being (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              semiot, Jay Elias

              done in our names. I have close to 100 people I correspond with via email, they have all received a copy of this diary and hopefully their friends I do not know.

              We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

              by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:37:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  but the fervor of the blogsphere (0+ / 0-)

          has propelled other important topics to the MSM even AGAINST their agendas.

          Meaning.....that the MSM doesn't want to talk about topics that will reflect poorly on the war effort.  This has been borne out by numerous incidents from the Abu Ghraib incidents, Haditha, to the mocking of the Lancet study and its update from Hopkins, to the Blackwater incidents (which have been occuring for years including the presence of over 100k private mercenaries in Iraq who make 10 times what our troops make), etc.

          I do think that not enough has been done to reinforce the enormity of human loss.  Iraqis hardly have a voice to be heard by many here and this hasn't been a constant topic on the blogsphere in the US, but again given the enormity of the situation, that is surprising.

    •  Excellent point. Total absence of listening. (15+ / 0-)

      I was relieved that NPR finally added an Iraqi civilian to their weekly lineup for Morning Edition.  An educated, middle-class dentist in Bagdad, who at this point wishes we would just get the hell out.  

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:12:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who would count, and how? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, drmah, cumberland sibyl

    People are in hiding.  They hardly leave the house, and it's probably not the same house they used to have.  And if you asked them how many people were in it, they would feel it safer to lie.  Bureacratic offices are shuttered or paralyzed.  Any count would be politicized and probably quite dangerous to conduct.  

    I suppose these logistical problems are common in war zones.  I further suppose that the traditional solution to them is to make shit up.

    I think the subtractive method the diarist employs is probably as good as any.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:08:50 PM PDT

    •  the Lancet study (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tzt, lgmcp

      and the Hopkins study were conducted in manners similar to those of the Congo and Darfur where it is equally difficult to interview and get information.

      They ask morgues and hospitals as well as conduct interviews of people.  In addition, they exclude those data which are clearly off the charts (too low or too high) - which would have included parts of Kurdistan-Iraq and Fallujah for the Lancet study.  Read the methodologies and their critiques.

      Here is a nice link from Juan Cole along with comments from some informed readers.

      link

  •  Let us compare these figures to the ones of Iraqi (5+ / 0-)

    wanting us out of the country.

    Because there is a serious disconnect in my mind between the casualty figures and the figures that we have been told of how many Iraqis want the US out of the country.

    Either the figures for staying are totally bogus, or things are MUCH worse in country then we have been hearing about!

    Because with just over 1 in 3 dead, maimed or gone it doesn't seem likely that the remaining population would favor the US percentage would be a bit under half.... I don't recall the exact percentage but something in the 40's seems about right.

    But the figures for those Iraqis thinking that attacks on the US forces being justified do seem to be in keeping with the above figures, perhaps a bit low.

    •  The numbers demanding we leave (6+ / 0-)

      are hovering over half, but yes, why wouldn't they be pushing 100%?  Is it because they want our help building democracy?  Maybe at first, but not now.

      Now they are just stone cold freaking terrified of being murdered by their neighbors for being the wrong sect or clan.  Because we've let that evil genie out of the bottle.  Saddam (however bad he was) at least had the genie bottled.    

      I want us out, but it is going to be an incredibly painful transition and I do have some mixed feelings about our responsibilities.  Genocidal sectarian and ethnic cleansing, and a partition process that will be described by diplomats as "bumpy" and by victims as "horrific".  

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:24:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah there is something dark and nasty in those (7+ / 0-)

        numbers... the devil truly IS in the details.

        One of the things that really pisses me off about this war, beyond the obvious bits, is that Bush has bungled it so badly!  Even with all the illegality of the invasion etc. if the occupation had been handled decently something good could have come from it!  Something that was truly worthy of our nation.

        But instead we get evil upon evil heaped upon incompetence.

        God I am so looking forward to GWB being a private citizen again so I can go kick him in the happy sack.

        •  Don't they get secret service protection (0+ / 0-)

          for many long years thereafter? Not to mention private goons hired with monies shoveled into his family's pockets by boondoggles like post-Katrina "education" contracts.

          In other words, enjoy your happy-sack fantasy, but don't enact it ... 'cuz I'd hate to hear you couldn't be Kossing from prison!

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:38:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They get it, but the penalty is no worse then any (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ghengismom, lgmcp

            other private citizen.  

            Now if only the post '08 congress will impeach him... which I just found out they can still do even if he is out of office.  Then no secret service, no pension... and probably no cup.

            Bush has got to be the single most deserving of a knee to the beans of any human being currently in the country...

        •  if Bush actually goes to Paraguay (4+ / 0-)

          getting close to him isn't going to be exactly safe.

          I expect a very large number of dissatisfied ex-Iraqi customers to want to discuss their differences in person with Bush in a vigorous, spirited sort of way.

          Spirited enough that his Hizbollah neighbors are probably going to want to move in order to get some peace and quiet.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:41:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Cholera? Are you kidding me?!!! (27+ / 0-)

    Cholera epidemics predate modern medicine and any practice of public health, the biggest case in the West being back in 1832 in England. The last major outbreak in the United States was in 1911.

    We truly have bombed Iraq to the stone age.

    They will never forgive us for what we have done to their country. Nor should they.

    Let the history books note: George Bush created a failed state in Iraq and set the cradle of civilization back one hundred years at least.

    PS: Here are the symptoms of Cholera if you are wondering what we have unleashed on the Iraqi people.

    Symptoms include those of general GA tract (stomach) upset and massive watery diarrhea. Symptoms may also include terrible muscle and stomach cramps, vomiting and fever in early stages. In a later stage the diarrhea becomes "rice water stool" (almost clear with flecks of white). Symptoms are caused by massive body fluid loss induced by the enterotoxins that V. cholerae produces. The main enterotoxin, known as cholera toxin, interacts with G proteins and cyclic AMP in the intestinal lining to open ion channels. As ions flow into the intestinal lumen (lining), body fluids (mostly water) flow out of the body due to osmosis leading to massive diarrhea as the fluid is expelled from the body. The body is "tricked" into releasing massive amounts of fluid into the small intestine which shows up in up to 36 liters of liquid diarrhea in a six day period in adults with accompanying massive dehydration. Radical dehydration can bring death within a day through collapse of the circulatory system.

    "Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde

    by greendem on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:11:34 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for an important diary (10+ / 0-)

    It's all too easy to wish this weren't true, and that our nation hadn't caused such horrific human suffering. To its unending shame, the U.S. (and by that I mean our official representatives and press) discounted the Lancet study on violent deaths in Iraq, published last year. Perhaps if all of us, especially our representatives, would internalize the idea that we, as a democratic nation, are each responsible for this suffering, impeachment would descend swiftly and harshly on Bush and Cheney and we would truly be seeking a way to fix the mess.

    Anyway, thanks for putting it all together. Well done.

  •  Cholera outbreak in Iraq (12+ / 0-)

    I'm not going anywhere. I'm standing up, which is how one speaks in opposition in a civilized world. - Ainsley Hayes

    by jillian on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:13:32 PM PDT

  •  When the US is using snipers who bait the (13+ / 0-)

    Iraqis it is easy to see how so many people are dying. If you see something on the gound that you could sell, to feed your family, and you bend down to pick it up and examine it. By the time you decide if its worth selling, your dead. Hunters bait animals not people.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:17:00 PM PDT

  •  Iraq (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skippythebox, jds1978

    "an Iraqi civilian is 58 times more likely to die a violent death than before the war started."

    But ... but ... but he was a dictator who gassed his own people and had nuclear weapons!!  

    How terribly tragic.  

  •  If population reduction is the goal (8+ / 0-)

     of the Iraq war/invasion then bush/cheney are "successful".

      bush/cheney have never really explained their real goal for Iraq -- they've made up reasons for the invasion but never outlined their goal.

      When the infrastructure of a country is targeted by bombing -- the infrastructure required to maintain human life -- then the reason must have been to eliminate (one way or the other) a significant portion of the population. If the claimed goal was to eliminate Saddam -- then why punish the Iraqi people? (collective punishment)

      It does seem that this is a WAR ON the Iraqi people. I wonder what the real population reduction goal is -- 50% or 75%?

      What these gang of thugs are doing in our name is a crime and a sin.
     

  •  Thank you for this diary. It's important that (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlynne, Fury, lgmcp, mango

    we all remember these figures and sad facts and try to get more Americans aware of what Bushco has done/is doing to the Iraqi people.

    I saw a YouTube the other day (from a link on a DKos diary, can't find it now) that showed where many of the Shia who've been driven out from their homes in Anbar have ended up - a "village", bombed out buildings with no running water.  It looked as if their lives are now as bad as shown in some of the picures from Darfur.

    Buy a Boat. Save the Seed.

    by cumberland sibyl on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:29:16 PM PDT

  •  Comparatively, that equals 105,000,000 Americans, (8+ / 0-)

    a figure none of us can begin to comprehend.  And given Iraq is less than a top rung nation, one can well imagine their culture/society will require generations to repair/renew itself.  To put a bit different spin on Colin Powell's broken pottery analogy, We have broken too much pottery into too many pieces.

  •  Thank you for this diary ! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fury, Granny Doc

    My heart breaks for the Iraqi people and the tragedy of forcing democracy on a country that really didn't ask for it.

    I mean, are they helping us at all?  Or are they just trying their best to survive like the South Vietnamese, who took the side of whoever wouldn't kill them.

    War, what is it good for?

    •  Given the condition of the country and the (0+ / 0-)

      circumstance of their day to day lives expecting them to make a working government is cruel. As long as their energy is used just surviving it will never happen.

      We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

      by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:45:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  More evidence of tragedy can be found in... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        naltikriti, R Rhino from CT4

        this quote from Leila Fadel's Baghdad Observer blog, recounting her visit to Al Nisoor Square, the site of the latest Blackwater atrocity:

        I sat with my translator and driver and looked at the place where Blackwater, the private security company that protects U.S. diplomats, is accused of killing 11 civilians. Among those civilians was a family of three: a baby, a mother and a father. The woman was a doctor I found out, a rare commodity in a place where most professionals have fled.

        I had trouble reading past that paragraph.  A mother and her child immolated when their car burst into flames in the attack...

        And then the realization hit me, not only was she a doctor, but that a doctor in BAGHDAD, not just out in the country, is now a rare commodity.

        It does stand to reason, however sickening the fact is, that those who have the ability (money, a car, friends with transportation) would be the ones that are most able to flee the insanity.  Those that remain have to share even fewer of this rare commodity now.

        Conservatism is a function of age - Rousseau
        I've been 19 longer'n you've been alive - me

        by watercarrier4diogenes on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:19:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And Vietnam did evolve afterall ? (0+ / 0-)

        After we left?

  •  Obviously, this is why the war must continue (7+ / 0-)

    We cannot let down our guard until we've killed, maimed, or turned into refugees 100% of Iraq's population!

    /snark

    It's incredibly easy to channel BushCo these days -- just think of the most psychopathic thing you can, and say it out loud.

  •  where does the million people number for (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlynne, Granny Doc

    saddam come from? does it include losses in the iraq-iran war? (the one we supplied weapons to both sides) just curious where the number comes from & what it includes, i've heard it used often.

    "Our problem is, that we have too many leaders of the party who have been elephants running around with donkey jackets on," - al sharpton

    by rasbobbo on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:37:59 PM PDT

  •  Thank you for this... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlynne, ghengismom

    It is all so saddening.

  •  I have contended for some time (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlynne, deepfish, jds1978

    that the policy of the BushCo junta for Iraq - and by aspiration, for Iran - is genocide.

    Kill enough of 'em, and the space will be "cleared" for proper "development" in the Middle East.

    Alan Greenspan's comment about the motive for the invasion, coupled with the facts of massive social destruction and displacement cited here, dispels any doubt about it, AFAIC.

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings. -- Julius Caesar, I.ii.

    by semiot on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:41:46 PM PDT

    •  what was Greenspan's quote? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jlynne

      I have not heard it.

      •  Greenspan (5+ / 0-)

        The following from an interview on Democracy Now

        AMY GOODMAN: Alan Greenspan, let’s talk about the war in Iraq. You said what for many in your circles is the unspeakable, that the war in Iraq was for oil. Can you explain?

        ALAN GREENSPAN: Yes. The point I was making was that if there were no oil under the sands of Iraq, Saddam Hussein would have never been able to accumulate the resources which enabled him to threaten his neighbors, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. And having watched him for thirty years, I was very fearful that he, if he ever achieved — and I thought he might very well be able to buy one — an atomic device, he would have essentially endeavored and perhaps succeeded in controlling the flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz, which is the channel through which eighteen or nineteen million barrels a day of the world eighty-five million barrel crude oil production flows. Had he decided to shut down, say, seven million barrels a day, which he could have done if he controlled, he could have essentially also shut down a significant part of economic activity throughout the world.

        The size of the threat that he posed, as I saw it emerging, I thought was scary. And so, getting him out of office or getting him out of the control position he was in, I thought, was essential. And whether that be done by one means or another was not as important, but it’s clear to me that were there not the oil resources in Iraq, the whole picture of how that part of the Middle East developed would have been different.

        The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings. -- Julius Caesar, I.ii.

        by semiot on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:03:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And insane-Bush just... (6+ / 0-)

    ...keeps on going and going and going...next he'll go to Iran and/or Syria, probably starting a Middle Eastern war if not WWIII, and either no one can stop the madman or not enough people care to stop him...

    Certainly gives the entire world a new meaning to the term USA...simply amazing how we achieved all of this in just six years...

    Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

    by OldManOnFire on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:45:00 PM PDT

    •  Fanatacism (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jlynne, skippythebox

      Is continuing the same course of action long afte your cause has been lost, forgotten, or misplaced.

      Futility is doubling down on a losing bet to recoup losses.

      Psychopathology is repeating the same actions and expecting new results.

      George Bush - triple threat.

      DFooK

      "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

      by deepfish on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:35:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what does that have to do with Bush? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deepfish

        War in the Middle East to him means the stream of bribes and kickbacks continues uninterrupted.

        From his viewpoint, he's got an uninterrupted record of success.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:54:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  if he starts a war on Iran (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ghengismom

      the only way he'll stay in office is martial law.

      An increase of gas/diesel to $5+ a gallon on announcement of the war and $20/gallon gas and diesel within months directly attributed to the war means that the only hope Congressional incumbents have to stay in office via elections is a bi-partisan throwing of Bush and Cheney under the bus.

      And that probably won't work, either. Republican incumbents will be fired by the voters for starting the war, Democratic incumbents will be fired for not stopping it.

      The senior members (as in the only incumbents left) of the next Congress will be the ones who were loudest about opposing Middle East war.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:53:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oil is already staying over $80/b (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alizard

        And on the WSJ show on XM radio this morning, it's not projected to go down. Ever.

        The Bush Administration isn't there to create disorder in the world. The Bush Administration is there to preserve disorder in the world.

        by iconoclastic cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:54:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the next question should be (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          iconoclastic cat, Jacob Bartle

          "What are we going to replace it with?"

          Not

          "How can we win the next cycle of oil wars so we can burn the last barrel in America, after which the world gets to stop eating?"

          Unfortunately, our media-appointed "wise men" and "centrists" don't even realize that the first question is of any importance.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:34:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Better think of something quick... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ghengismom

            ...since as someone else pointed out on this post, the price of oil and gas is not going down!!!  There may be some valleys but the general trend will be up and away!

            And if just one more thing happens like; insane-Bush attacking Iran, Israel going berserk, any Middle East conflict, another large terrorist strike, a hurricane taking out some refineries, etc. and oil will become gold overnight!!

            If anyone is worried about this issue, you must start today to change your life.  And most importantly...there is NO DOWNSIDE RISK to doing something proactive!!!  It allows us to be more independent and adds money to our pockets.

            Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

            by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:12:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the problem isn't thinking of something (0+ / 0-)

              the problem is gettingresearch funded.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 03:05:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Don't understand your comment Alizard??? (0+ / 0-)

                There are things that all people can do now!  

                Car pool
                Take mass-transit
                Ride a bicycle or walk
                Buy a car with higher MPG
                Relocate if possible
                Telecommute part-time or full-time
                Turn off those lights
                Turn up the thermostat a few degrees
                Air dry your clothes
                Consolidate your grocery, etc. trips
                Grow a vegetable garden
                Cook 90% of meals at home
                Add more insulation to your house
                Change the light bulbs to lower wattage
                Install solar cells/wind turbine

                When a good percentage of people are already doing most of these things, then I will entertain new technologies...but until then, stop making excuses!

                Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 04:33:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm one of the technologists looking for money. (0+ / 0-)

                  If you don't understand that your laundry list is only a start, I'm not especially interested in what you are willing to entertain.

                  Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                  by alizard on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:15:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Of course I understand my list is only a start... (0+ / 0-)

                    but the point I make is people have choices today!  There are things that can be done by all of us to make life a little easier should gas prices get more crazy.

                    Technology never solves anything without people willing to participate in that technology!  People must start somewhere and my list provided some good places to start.

                    BTW...you have provided no positive or useful information on dealing with higher gas prices??

                    Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                    by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:53:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm working on a new biomass to biodiesel (0+ / 0-)

                      process, and discussing it only under secrecy agreement.

                      However, my actual point is that yes, I agree with you there are things we can do today and we should be doing them.

                      But energy conservation only buys more time for engineers and scientists to come up with whatever the hell we're going to replace coal and oil with.

                      That's of sufficient value that with one exception (it's on a dimmer) every light bulb where I live is CF, I bought an LCD monitor before they became fashionable, and my Linux desktop box is one of the few that will go to sleep state when not in use.

                      However, once the new technologies (as A.Siegel says, it's going to be a bunch of "silver BBs, not one or two big Solutions for everything") are ready, it'll take consumer and political pressure to get them actually in use by the major corporations who will be generally supplying consumers with energy in the foreseeable future. Much of this won't become available unless we get some research money upstream.

                      Many of the big corporations want people to embrace individual conservation solutions as the only ones possible so they can avoid the need to change the ways they do business. If this happens, we all lose.

                      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                      by alizard on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 12:39:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So much to do and we don't care... (0+ / 0-)

                        "However, my actual point is that yes, I agree with you there are things we can do today and we should be doing them."

                        There are tons of things to do!!!  And almost none of them are being done by any significant percentage of people today?  Just like everything else in the world today, no matter how big the issue might be, American people simply won't do anything until their butts are on fire!  Then they will all complain about what is happening but fail to take any credit for not doing a damn thing to prevent or minimize the situation!

                        "But energy conservation only buys more time for engineers and scientists to come up with whatever the hell we're going to replace coal and oil with."

                        This is not true!  Energy conservation, if done on a wide scope, and if done with reasonable efficiencies, can greatly reduce the demand on power stations, thereby not requiring new power plants!  

                        And I'm sick and tired of hearing what people can do!  What about our governments, and businesses, and schools, and churches, etc.?  All of them can do so much if they wished...but they don't care.

                        "However, once the new technologies are ready, it'll take consumer..."

                        Consumers are lazy and stupid and won't spend a penny on something helpful.  You can create stuff all day long, but it must be painless for this group of people to deal with.  Millions of cars are purchased each year--why don't they purchase a hybrid-electric??  Millions of homes are built new each year--why doesn't everyone of them come with solar cells??  

                        I don't personally give a rip what other people do, but this I am positive; some day soon there is going to be a horrific oil/gasoline crisis, and it will not only affect the price of gasoline (as shallow thinkers believe), it will cripple the nation.  And all I'm saying is that each of us has an opportunity today to do something to prevent or minimize this eventual catastrophe...

                        Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                        by OldManOnFire on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 08:15:01 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  WRONG (0+ / 0-)

                          This is not true!  Energy conservation, if done on a wide scope, and if done with reasonable efficiencies, can greatly reduce the demand on power stations, thereby not requiring new power plants!

                          We have to replace fossil fuel. Period.

                          Big Coal wants us in general to think that using less of their products will save the world, and pitch carbon sequestration on the slightly better informed.    

                          Don't buy into their misinformation.

                          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                          by alizard on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 05:48:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You made my point... (0+ / 0-)

                            We as a community of people, through existing technology, through some intelligence on the issue, and most importantly, by modifying our lifestyles a little, we can minimize the need for coal-fired energy.  We can still have a few nuclear power plants; like perhaps maintain the current quantity.  

                            We should have started this change forty years ago!  And if we don't start it today, we will let the situation go beyond reasonable to horrific.

                            What a shame that we knowingly do this...

                            I don't buy into anyone's information until I verify the data on my own terms!!

                            And regarding your quote; "We have to replace fossil fuel. Period."  You lose today if you try to make this a black and white, all or nothing issue!!!  We do not have to eliminate all fossil fuels.  There is nothing wrong with burning coal, since there is an abundance of the stuff, and IF...IF the proper scrubbing equipment is used to eliminate harmful pollution.  And you of all people should know new technologies will come along, sooner if we focus on this issue, to further deal with the pollution issues.

                            Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                            by OldManOnFire on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 07:37:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  until you do enough research to (0+ / 0-)

                            find out what the hell you are talking about, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

                            "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". . . and in this case, it's endangering your credibility.

                            Carbon sequestering is supported only by those who either don't know what they're talking about or are being paid by Big Coal to pretend not to know.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:51:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When you can't debate data... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you just turn to righteousness??

                            Like I said, you've already lost if you believe this is a black and white issue--which you apparently do!

                            This horrific issue will require baby steps and ALL OPTIONS ARE ON THE TABLE--NOT JUST YOURS!!!!

                            Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                            by OldManOnFire on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 07:41:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  You know there are some who are already... (0+ / 0-)

        ...predicting that Bush will attack Iran then declare a federal state of emergency, thereby canceling the '08 elections, with insane-Bush remaining in office, or handing off to other Republicans in line.

        I wish I had your optimism that insane-Bush will be removed from office, but reality to date says not enough people care to remove the madman.  

        How bad must it get before we impeach the worst president and VP in the history of the USA???????

        Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

        by OldManOnFire on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:43:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If he does that there will be open rebellion (0+ / 0-)

          as in armed rebellion...

          Which will likely be crushed ruthlessly.

          •  you've got the first part right (0+ / 0-)

            As for the second part, interesting question.

            We can assume Blackwater will work for the regime that's paying for them. Which US military units will be loyal to Bush and which to the people of America? What units will take orders to shoot their friends and neighbors?

            I don't think anybody knows.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:47:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow Alizard...slow down some... (0+ / 0-)

              I know things are not the best in the good 'ole US of A, but you're envisioning a society that is darker then any other place I can think of right now.  

              Put away your gun-cleaning kit and let's see if all of this can work itself out without your scenario being the only option...

              Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

              by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:24:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The problem with this Skippy is... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ghengismom

            ...it's too late if we allow insane-Bush to start something!!!!!

            Somehow this worthless Congress needs to be demanded by our uninvolved electorate that there will be NO PREEMPTIVE ATTACKS AGAINST IRAN OR ANY SOVEREIGN NATION UNLESS DONE WITH THE FULL APPROVAL OF THE UN, WITH A MAJORITY WORLD COALITION, AND A SUPER-MAJORITY OF CONGRESS.

            I don't agree with you about an armed rebellion, but at least we will see hundreds of thousands or millions of US citizens marching on Washington...and it will be about time!!

            Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

            by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:20:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  FYI, there are anti-war demonstrations (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skippythebox

              going on in DC fairly regularly. The last one was 9-15. 150,000 people perhaps more, you can search Road2DC for a personal glimpse from people here who attended. It got virtually no media coverage and what little there was estimated the crowds in the 6,000 range. It was certainly news worthy on a lot of levels. Many arrests, I think in excess of 200. Some were demonstrators who went over the barricade to deliver a petition to stop the war signed by 1 MILLION Americans. A Gold Star dad who remembers his son by attending these rallies was beaten up by a group of freepers. None of that got in the news.

              We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

              by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:30:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know this G-mom... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ghengismom

                But as you clearly point out, they aren't making a huge difference yet.  So the answer is more demonstrations and larger demonstrations until the message is received!  

                In my little remote area we rotate people standing on busy street-corners with anti-war signs--some responses are positive and some are the middle-finger.  And as great as this effort is, there needs to be a GRANDER and GREATER effort!

                My fear is that not enough people of any political persuasion desire to put an end to anything Iraq or Middle East.  If this is true, then we are at the mercy of the madman--insane-Bush!  And the madness will continue if a Republican wins the presidency!!  

                Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:46:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah we are on the verge of things going the (0+ / 0-)

                  nasty route.

                  I was there in DC on the 15th, the pro war people were looking for a fight, and some of our guys were as well.  The pro war people went so far as to actually engage in violence, one incident I witnessed with my own eyes and I saw the precursor to a second.

                  When the people have no confidence in any branch of government and their will is not being heeded historically that leads to violence.  If you add to that an event as described; Bush declaring a national emergency and halting national elections, in effect a coup, you will get violence.

                  But you won't get enough of it to change things.  Historically to high a percentage of the populations of countries that have fallen into that particular form of twilight sit back like sheep and await the slaughter of their nation passively, leaving those willing to take action to undo it swinging in the wind at the end of a gallows.

        •  remember Bush's basic purpose (0+ / 0-)

          I believe that he wants to leave America with the bribes and kickbacks in his offshore bank accounts intact, not stage a coup at the end if his term.

          Stealing from the taxpayers is one thing, armed robbery is a lot riskier and far more work, and 'winning' means having to try to clean up 8 years of his own screwups so he can have a profitable nation to be President for Life of.

          This would be hard enough for a legitimately elected President with popular support. Bush is neither.

          Of course, if he is a batshit Religious Right theocratic ideologue who will try to overstay his official welcome to continue the "New World Order" neocon dream, we have a very, very big problem.

          I think the broadest hint of his real intentions is his Paraguay ranch.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:55:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Key statement... (0+ / 0-)

            "and 'winning' means having to try to clean up 8 years of his own screwups so he can have a profitable nation to be President for Life of."

            Insane-Bush does not in any way believe he has any screw-ups!  He believes his path is the correct path no matter the opinion of most citizens!  

            The madman is insane; he gets his advice from a higher power; and if this is not Rove or wifey-Bush, then it's his imaginary Gawd--he's insane!!!!!!!

            Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

            by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:30:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  actually, I think the key statement is (0+ / 0-)

              "the broadest hint of his real intentions is his Paraguay ranch."

              Which is why I'm nervous but not heading for the hills.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 03:03:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It has never been verified that little Georgy... (0+ / 0-)

                ...has purchased a ranch in Paraguay??

                Since insane-Bush will be an ex-president someday, and since ex-presidents are provided security for life, I cannot imagine the level of security that would be required if he was living in Paraguay?????

                Security issues alone make the idea of a Paraguayan ranch less feasible...

                Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

                by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 04:46:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this diary, (6+ / 0-)

    just this past Sunday I sent an e-mail to my family and in-laws with a similar list of the horrific results of the Iraqi "liberation".  The response was just one big collective yawn.  I'm disgusted that when I do mention this to people (and I do it as often as I can) all I get in return is a blank stare and change of subject.  What have we become when we don't even care?  Or is it guilt over what we've done?  Anyone have any suggestions, aside from working our butts off to end this, to help these people?  I know there must be some organizations working on this.

  •  Real cost of war (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    naltikriti, drmah, jds1978

    The administration won't admit it and no one likes to think about the $2Trillion and rising tax on our future from the money so far spent/committed/borrowed/incurred by US for this war on Iraq.

    Still, I'd like to hear leaders start to admit the fact that we have caused 100s of billions - truly $trillions of dollars of damage to the Iraqi people. Their country is hopelessly polluted, their infrastructure, cities, jobs, economy, homes all destroyed, millions killed or homeless or refugees or scarred for life.

    Let's start talking about the cost to repair what we have intentionally destroyed.  How much will that cost? How much should we admit that it will cost?

    Fear drove this county into war on Iraq.  Will the U.S. fear paying for its crimes as well? Will we fear asking are leaders and will they fear hearing us asking them to pay on our behalf, for the crimes committed on the Iraqi people?

    When we talk about the long term costs of the war, let's at least talk about the cost of what we are doing to the victims.

    sláinte,

    cl

    Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

    by Caoimhin Laochdha on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:57:02 PM PDT

  •  In the interest of accuracy... (15+ / 0-)

    ...the UN places the prewar  population of Iraq at 22 million

    The CIA Factbook estimates the Iraqi population at 27,499,638 for 2007.

    ...the number of displaced Iraqis still in country number number in excess of 2.2 million, Every day the civil war intensifies the numbers go up exponentially.

    No, they don't multiply by a power of 2 or more.

    There are 10's of thousands of orphans and abandoned children living on the streets and countryside, many left to starve.

    This claim should be sourced to be believed.

    ...the best estimate say more than 1,000,000 Iraqis have perished

    This 'estimate' is based on a poll done by a British firm which claimed 1.2 million dead. In order to be believed, one would have to accept that 18,518 Iraqis died each and every week since the invasion (that's 2,645 people each and every day).

    The same poll also claimed that 240,000 had died from car bombings. That would equal 634 people killed by car bombings each and every day since the invasion.

    Hardly credible numbers.

    Now there is a cholera epidemic sweeping thru Northern Iraq, it should reach Bagdad the first week of October. There are 7000 people sick now, when it hits the capitol the the number will raise dramatically and the epidemic will likely sweep south into the rest of Iraq.

    World Health Organization spokeswoman Fadela Chaib says that Iraq has registered 29,000 cases of acute watery diarrhea (symptom of cholera), with 1,500 of those confirmed as cholera. All but two confirmed cases are in the north.

    The first case in Baghdad showed up last Thursday, followed the next day by the first case in Basra (Iraq's southernmost point).

    But in support of your general horror at the situation, there's this:

    Report: 8 million Iraqis need emergency aid; 43% of Iraqis live in 'absolute poverty'; 28% of kids malnourished; 70% lack adequate water

    "Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." -- Ernest Hemingway

    by spread the word IRAQ NAM on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:11:55 PM PDT

    •  Thank you.... (3+ / 0-)

      ... I was running around in your blog gathering links to some of your news sources when my computer's browser fried out.

      Somewhere between the deliberate lowballing by the US propaganda machine and the unsourced estimates of the people trying to guess, based on extrapolating eyewitness reports to the general population, is the truth.

      The recieving countries can probably count the number of refugees showing up.
      If you add the Iraqi civilian and military deaths together just based on the # bodies showing up in the morgues or in the ditches the official "count" is too low. Plus a lot of people died blown to bits during the initial bombing runs that will never be counted. Plus the number of Iraq refugees who say they've lost a relative... lost, as in disapeared, so probably dead. The United States does NOT do civilian casualty numbers in Iraq, according to a story in the BBC in 2006.  The Iraqi government also has forbidden the ministry that was responsible for counting deaths to stop doing so.

      Link to Iraq Body Count, which bases their numbers on the official reports from various news sources.   http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

      Link to icasualties.org, Iraqi Coalition Casualty Count
      http://icasualties.org/...
      When you look at this chart on the left side, you notice the staggering larger number of civilian deaths vs. "coalition" deaths per month, more than /10 times as many civilians as Iraqi "security forces" die each month.  This page also has a pdf download to the Lancet estimate of war dead on the bottom.

      And if you still don't "get it" you can always look at today's Doonesbury cartoon by Gary Trudeau.

      What is true is that almost the entire civilian population of the country has no reliable electrical power and hence no clean drinkable water nor sewage treatment, and that is eventually going to kill off a huge number of them, a proportionately larger % of which will be children because they don't dehydrate well being little tiny things with lesser amounts of fluid in them, also they are malnourished and stressed and have lower disease resistance.

    •  "a poll by a British firm?" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Boreal Ecologist

      Try a study conducted by industry-standard methodology published in the Lancet.

      •  also (0+ / 0-)

        the John's Hopkins follow up study...

        Even if you take 1/4 of the #'s stated, that is still staggering.

        As for the 1 million...those are deaths that exceed the mortality rate that exists.  Those aren't always going to be reported as violent deaths.  Those can occur from heat strokes cuz of lack of AC in the long summer, lack of clean water, lack of adequate medical care impaired by the security threats.  Of course, this doesn't include the higher rate of birth defects and cancers possibly secondary to DU.

        Regarding "conifrmed cases of cholera"....most of the time this is not treated by testing for it but simply by hydration and the assumption that if you hear hoofbeats then its probably a horse and not a zebra.  It, of course, won't include those patients who suffer but are unable to get to medical attention.

        •  Yes, even 1/4 of the number is staggering. (0+ / 0-)


          Even if you take 1/4 of the #'s stated, that is still staggering.

          You'll get no argument on that statement from me. However, I have seen no reports of any organization that collects actual data from Iraqi morgues, etc. that come anywhere near the Lancet study or OBR poll numbers.

          Of course, this doesn't include the higher rate of birth defects and cancers possibly secondary to DU.

          Again... agreed. In fact one of the most disturbing ignored stories that passed my way was the study published in early May by Basra University Medical College with input from researchers at the Ministry of Health, where it was stated that 'At least 45 percent of deaths in the southern provinces are caused by cancer...'

          Now that's a staggering number.

          Regarding "conifrmed cases of cholera"....most of the time this is not treated by testing for it but simply by hydration and the assumption that if you hear hoofbeats then its probably a horse and not a zebra...

          Again, no argument. My point was simply to correct the '7,000' figure given in the diary to the actual figure of 29,000 showing symptoms, and to point out that it had already reached Baghdad and Basra.

          "Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." -- Ernest Hemingway

          by spread the word IRAQ NAM on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:43:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ahem. (0+ / 0-)

        From CBS News:

        A British polling company recently surveyed 1,461 adults in Iraq and asked each one, "How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003?" Based on the results, they say that 1.2 million Iraqis have died violent deaths in the past four years.

        The methodology here is nowhere near as detailed as that of last year's Lancet study, which produced a figure of about 650,000 war-related deaths in three years (and probably would have produced a number of about 1 million if it had been extended into 2007), but at first glance it certainly seems to support the notion that the violence rate has been far higher than usually reported.


        And from the LA Times:

        Poll: Civilian toll in Iraq may top 1M

        ...a new survey suggested that the civilian death toll from the war could be more than 1 million...

        According to the ORB poll, a survey of 1,461 adults suggested that the total number slain during more than four years of war was more than 1.2 million.

        ORB said it drew its conclusion from responses to the question about those living under one roof: "How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003?"

        Based on Iraq's estimated number of households -- 4,050,597 -- it said the 1.2 million figure was reasonable.


        The Lancet study to which you refer estimated Iraqi deaths as between 392,000 and 942,000 with 654,000 as the best estimate.

        Accepting the 654,000 estimate, this still reduces to more than 15,000 Iraqis dying each and every month from the start of the invasion through the time the study was published last October.

        This would mean nearly 4,000 dead Iraqis each and every week since the invasion.

        Again, a number that stretches credulity.

        "Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." -- Ernest Hemingway

        by spread the word IRAQ NAM on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:18:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't want to (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pb, elfling, jockyoung, Justanothernyer

    downplay the tragedy going on in Iraq, but you can't simply add all those numbers together. For example, some of the displaced are probably wounded.

  •  Mission Accomplished (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina, deepfish

    Just got done reading Kos' post on how Nader is going to run as a Democrat, and Kos wondering how he feels about having his gigantic ego cost us an Al Gore presidency.

    Here you go, Ralph. Here's why I'm mad beyond mad. It's not that I'm merely appalled at what has transpired over the last 6 1/2 years. I knew something like this was going to happen because I, unlike you, did my homework about George "Midas Touch" (because all that I touch turns into mufflers) Bush, and realized beyond doubt, beyond reasonable doubt, BEYOND ALL DOUBT, that this man was not only a f*uckup, but capable of immense wrong doing. Although, I must say, dubya has exceeded all expectations.

    Take a hard look, Ralph. A country destroyed because of yet another "Hitchhiker to the Galaxy Moment" when some stupid event, like your candidacy, causes a planetary catastrophe.

    •  And I forgot, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deepfish

      g-mom: thanks for this post. Rec'd.

    •  There is plenty of blame to go around (0+ / 0-)

      I feel the same way about Bill Clinton as you do about Ralph. If he demonstrates just a modicum of self control, Al Gore wins in a cake walk. No scandal, Gore doesn't choose that weasel Lieberman to make the Democrats "appear" morally righteous. No scandal, Gore doesn't distance himself from Clinton who, like him or not, is a excellent campaigner. No scandal, the election isn't close enough for the SCOTUS to steal (Remember ... Gore won). No scandal, Nader is hardly a footnote in history. No scandal, no Bush presidency.

      Put the blame where it belongs.

      Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

      by slatsg on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:09:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not to mention (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ghengismom

      I don't believe a Democratic president would have started this thing.

      But the Democrats in Congress have done jack shit to stop it.  There is plenty of blame to go around.

  •  We are well on they way (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marie

    to curing the insurgent problem, I think.  Only 65% left to deal with....  This is so sick!

    "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:23:25 PM PDT

  •  But but (0+ / 0-)

    The Dear Preznit says its going so well, so it has to be true.

    So there.

    DFooK

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:30:57 PM PDT

  •  Here's an interesting contrast: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pb, skippythebox, ghengismom

    IRAQ, since 2003 (from above)
    about 1,000,000 civilians killed
    about 3,000,000 civilian as external refugees
    about 2,200,000 civilian as internal refugees

    DARFUR, since 2003 (from http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    about 400,000 civilians killed
    about 2,000,000 civilians as external & external refugees

    Protecting IRAQ: over 160,000 heavily armed and spectacularly equipped American & Coalition troops who shoot at anything that moves

    Protecting DARFUR: a few thousand inadequately equipped African Union troops who cannot fire at anyone except to protect their own lives.

    My question: why does anyone think that adding more troops in Darfur will help make things better there?

    I'm serious, folks, help me out, I'm genuinely looking for an answer here.

    Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. - John Stuart Mill

    by vulcangrrl on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:40:00 PM PDT

  •  Thank you, important but discouraging information (0+ / 0-)
  •  Are we a civilized nation (3+ / 0-)

    if we consent to governed by serial killers? Cause that's what we tolerate. All the yammering about 60 votes sounds pretty stupid in light of the reality on the ground.

    What to do? De-fund this entire debacle and do it now. There is no twisting of logic that can permit any more of this to continue. Unless of course we've given up our right to belong to the human race.

    Thank you for assembling this diary which earned a recommend.

    Stop Iran War Please add to our collective voice.

    by Donna Z on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:00:16 PM PDT

  •  Unfortunately, creating refugees seems to be (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah

    an essential part of the land-grab scheme underway, to deprive Iraqis of revenue from oil.

  •  Syria and Jordan (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    naltikriti, R Rhino from CT4

    Syria is a Sunni country, a dictatorship ruled by the Baath party, with ties to terrorist groups and a poor human rights record. About half the refugees entering Syria are Christians

    This could be understood as implying that problems will arise from Christians entering a Sunni country.
    Syria has however always had a sizeable Christian minority, currently estimated at over 10%. There is a denomination of its own: Syrian orthodox. Of the muslims, the majority is sunni, but by far not all. And there is also a yazidi minority; possibly other small religious groups as well.
    The Baath party is said to be quite secular.

    The poor human rights record goes without question, but regarding the terrorist ties, it is interesting that part of that poor human rights record comes from brutally crushing islamistic extremist organisations in the past, like Saddam Hussein did.

    Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, no ties with terrorists, with fewer human rights violations and politically better for the refugees. They will experience really for the first time how a country moves toward democracy and how representative government works.

    That might paint things too rosy. Jordan is not a beacon of human rights either.

    Riverbend, in her latest blog entry, described how her family chose Syria over Jordan after all, because Jordan treats refugees so poorly, like sending them back or demanding unaffordably high bribes.

    Freedom is not just a word. 'Freedom' is a noun.

    by intruder from Old Europe on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:42:46 PM PDT

    •  Things aren't rosy either place. Jordan doesn't (0+ / 0-)

      keep the refugees, they are in no position to take care of them. They don't want to approve the stay,or have them settle. But we knew that before invading Iraq. Syria does have a sizable number of Christians, I didn't mean to imply there would be a problem, only that 1/2 of the refugees going to Syria are Christian.

      We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

      by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:01:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is this what is called a holocaust? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ohcanada, naltikriti

    Well? Shall we go? Yes, let's go.

    by whenwego on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:57:34 PM PDT

    •  Never mentioned are the 30 million (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      whenwego

      who died in the greatest holocaust of all in the Ukraine under Stalin, but I don't think there is a fixed number to qualify.

      From my living room Iraq looks like a holocaust, and I can't imagine what it looks like for an Iraqi mother who lives there.

      The Hague is a great retirement place.

      by ohcanada on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:17:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A holocaust is when we decide that the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      whenwego

      refugees are too much trouble and figure out some way to get them into mass graves (or incinerate them so that no mass graves are needed).

      So, in my opinion, this is still a terrible war, not exactly a holocaust. But you never know what kind of excitement the Bush administration will think of next.

  •  Who hasn't recommended this? What's the deal? (2+ / 0-)

    Why on earth are there are any diaries ranking above this one in the recommended list?

    It seems as if, if we as a nation have done all this, the least we can do is read and recommend a diary about the horror we've wrought.

  •  That would be like 90 MILLION Americans in the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ghengismom, yoduuuh do or do not

    same condition, or, to put some scale to it, the entire populations of Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan either dead, maimed, or living in Canada or Mexico.

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

    by Spud1 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:18:57 PM PDT

  •  And Ahmadenijad is the "petty dictator"? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ghengismom, ohcanada

    IRAN is the dangerous, outlaw nation?

    God, we're all compromised morally by the Bush crime junta.

  •  I guess they don't need those schools after all (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt, drmah

    It's SO hard to say something cogent when pro-war people say "We are doing so many good things over there!" The truth is, we didn't know what was going on before, we don't know what it's really like right now, and we won't ever know much about daily life in Iraq unless we get lots more real reporting on the situation.
    They dispute numbers, they maipulate emotions with pictures - I've seen one of a marine hugging a little girl with the caption "She's glad he's there." Well, that is a total lie, the girl had just witnessed her parents being shot dead and the soldier had something to do with it, whether directly on indirectly.

    In a democracy, everyone is a politician. ~ Ehren Watada

    by Lefty Mama on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:40:29 PM PDT

    •  thanks for remembering that aspect. (0+ / 0-)

      I got that photo from my wingut relatives once talking about how good we were, and they didn't know the story.

      •  the soldier looks so helpless and vulnerable (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        borkitekt

        It really is a good picture, but a very bad situation. He is clinging to the child's innocence as he loses his own. The soldier could be the nicest guy in the world (and he looks like it!) but what did they think he would do, adopt the child?!?!? I hate that the soldier was put into that position, seeing things he should never have seen. People saw the symbolism of the moment but not the consequences.

        In a democracy, everyone is a politician. ~ Ehren Watada

        by Lefty Mama on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 01:08:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

    You know what?  I didn't even read this diary.  Just reading the title brings tears to my eyes, literally.  I am reading an article in Foreign Affairs about how the Chinese are busting the whole world's environment by snuffing out their own arable land, potable water, and breathable air.

    I really don't know how much more I can handle.  Is that why I drink a scotch or two now almost every night?  I used to not even care for it, choosing fine wines instead.  Is it my environment, my inner rage that must be sedated?

    We are going into the fall and winter here in the Northwest part of the USA, and I hope that the weather allows a day of hiking per week (along with the kid's schedules of course).  Otherwise, cuckoo, cuckoo!

    That's mostly snark there at the end, but how many people feel like they are at the end of their ropes?  I may not feel exactly at the end, but it sure is only a few more knots down before it's all gone.

    Sigh.  Rec the damn diary and go check out something on the TiVo or HD DVR.  Maybe DirecTV is switching on their big HD changeover tonight or tomorrow, so I can have a respite of thinking of this shit.

    0047710420123535161533 1541012554254325504300
    (-4.88, -4.15)

    by DrSpalding on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:09:29 PM PDT

    •  I feel that way too sometimes but I get (0+ / 0-)

      so angry about this, it the anger that keeps me from throwing in the towel. It is really too much to deal with, which is what I think they are counting on.

      We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

      by ghengismom on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:22:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I dunno if I'm AT the end of my rope (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skippythebox, KimD

      But I can sure as hell see it from here.

      The more dKos I read, the more the world looks like some really poorly-written "explanation" chapter from a B-grade dystopia novel. (Which is not to say that this is dKos's fault, of course. Ignorance is bliss, awakening is woe, and dKos is a hell of an alarm clock.)

      Question Authority - Now, more than ever.

      by Zaq on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:24:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One of the goals of war... (0+ / 0-)

    is ethnic cleansing.

  •  Are we even for 9/11 yet? nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ohcanada, yoduuuh do or do not

    The Bush Administration isn't there to create disorder in the world. The Bush Administration is there to preserve disorder in the world.

    by iconoclastic cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:46:44 PM PDT

  •  35% of Iraq population dead, maimed or in exile? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slatsg, ghengismom, ohcanada, Zaq

    Typical liberal bias. This means 65% of all Iraqis are alive and well, um, or alive anyway.

    Mission accomplished!

  •  Just watching C-Span (0+ / 0-)

    With Sen Warner patting and praising everyone for another non-binding Senate bill that says they recognize the sovereignty of Iraq and it's ok with the US Senate if Iraqis decide they want to divide Iraq up into three divisions.

    With all the patting on the backs and lofty speeches, they never can get anything meaningful passed.  They'll never admit what they have done to the Iraqi people.

  •  thanks (0+ / 0-)

    for an incredible diary that on a topic that needs to be in the forefront of the news.  The loss is tremendous and clearly catastrophic.

  •  If someone else mentioned Kitty Kelly (Voices in (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DrReason, ghengismom, mamamedusa, Zaq

    the Wilderness), I apologize.  She's been writing about the poverty and family pain of refugees who have ended up in Jordan.

    It is just not possible to wrap my mind around this.  I try to imagine living in Iraq, having children there, trying to take care of them.  I read about people who have lost their entire families--large ones, many brothers and sisters.  There is no water, electricity, transportation, food.  Families can't leave their homes, and their homes are travesties--either damaged to the point that they are barely habitable, or they've been driven from place to place and have to make do with anything that resembles shelter.

    We have become murderers and torturers, destroyers of our own and other people's children.  Their flesh and spirits and futures are torn beyond repair.

    George Bush and his posse will burn in hell forever for what they have done, but it won't help anyone.

    She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

    by Boadicaea on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:10:15 PM PDT

    •  Iraqi girls forced into prostitution (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ghengismom, Boadicaea, BWildered

      Some months ago, there was an article in the NYT about the many Iraqi girls and young women who've been forced into prostitution in Jordan and elsewhere, as a consequence of being refugees.

      I echo your sentiments. Shaking my head in disbelief. I was watching the PBS documentary on WWII tonight and thought, "we're the villain this time".

      Clark '08 -6.88/-5.54

      by DrReason on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:25:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I do hope you won't mind if I steal that comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Boadicaea

      "George Bush and his posse will burn in hell forever for what they have done, but it won't help anyone."

      Well said. I'm very much planning on repeating that, if you don't mind...

      Question Authority - Now, more than ever.

      by Zaq on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:26:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  an Iraqi-American: anyone who can leave has left (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pb, BentLiberal, jockyoung, BWildered

    I talked with an Iraqi-American (born in Iraq, in the US for a long time) who said that most of her relatives who could afford to leave have left. Some immediate relatives moved to "safer" neighborhoods within Baghdad once the sectarian strife began. She estimates 15-20 years of fighting. Her brother was in med school in Baghdad but left.

    The atrocity the US has created is hard to grasp.  

    Clark '08 -6.88/-5.54

    by DrReason on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:24:00 PM PDT

  •  Picture this: 69 Times the Number at Normandy (6+ / 0-)

    Picture this: 69 Times the Number at Normandy

    News item:

    A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.


    ...

    It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

    ...

    (update)The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health

    655,000 Iraqis are dead.

    That's a scary number. And a big number. I tried to comprehend how big it is, but my imagination failed me. What's needed is a visual model that illustrates the enormity of the situation.

    </div>
    </div><div id="extended">

    (Crossposted at NION and ProgressiveHistorians)

    One way to measure this loss of life might be to imagine how much space would be needed to give each of them a proper burial. How much space would you need?

    For comparison, the American Cemetery at Normandy sits on a bluff just above Omaha Beach in northern France. The land is American territory, gratefully deeded to the US by France shortly after World War II. (click for larger picture)

    Most graves are marked by crossesStanding in the center and looking in any direction you can see what seems like endless rows of graves. "It covers...172 acres, and contains the remains of 9,387 American military dead, most of whom were killed during the invasion of Normandy and ensuing military operations in World War II." For anyone who's ever studied D-Day, seeing this cemetery is an experience you'll never forget.

    It's an understatement to say that taking in this many graves, live and in person simply takes your breath away. I imagine it's the same visiting Arlington or any other military cemetery. Normandy just happens to be the one I've visited and that's why I've chosen it.

    :: ::

    rght cmprsd sizedTo accomodate the number of Iraqis killed since the 2003 invasion, our theoretical Iraqi Cemetery would need a capacity of 655,000. That's almost 70 times more than the number of war dead at Normandy.

    In order to conserve as much bandwidth as possible, I've used this highly compressed picture to represent the 9,387 graves on the bluffs above Omaha Beach. Using it as a starting point, I've extrapolated the following model that illustrates the number of Iraqi war dead. (Remember, what follows would be even more impressive if I could use a decent sized picture to start with). Even as it is, the model is so big that it doesn't fit properly in the confines of the diary, so I had to get a little creative.

    655,000655,000655,000655,000655,000655,000655,000655,000655,000

    655,000 Iraqis are dead.

    Got the picture?

  •  Liberation + Bush = Death + Suffering (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dauphin, Boreal Ecologist

    The evil of the US government - and I'm not limiting it to Bush because H.R. Clinton will be as bad - is that it preaches freedom and liberation while promoting massive military actions which result only in death, loss, suffering and more political oppression.

    Right now I don't believe the Iranians have or soon will have a nuclear weapon.  Even if they did, I wouldn't blame them.  I wouldn't blame any country observing what has gone on in Iraq and knowing it is targeted to be "liberated" next from protecting itself in every way possible.

    The Americans are the "bad guys" and prove it daily with their aggessive, selfish actions in the rest of the world.  

    Until behaviour matches rhetoric, expect a lot more Irans and Venezuelas because people look to strength internally when threatened externally.

    "It ain't what people don't know that hurts `em - it's what they do know that ain't true." - Will Rogers

    by LondonYank on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:58:06 PM PDT

  •  The only comparison I can think of is.. (0+ / 0-)

    Hitler-like.

    Pol Pot was only 2 million (I think).

    It certainly wasn't a program of extermination, but the blame can still be laid at the feet of one person responsible.

    He shows no sign of caring or stopping. In fact, he claimed the other day that life is returning to normal for them. Life is normal if you disregard the missing legs and missing family. Obtaining food and any water, let alone clean water, now occupy the better part of the day for some. That's normal - for an animal.

    But animals are what the fascists here have made them and oh, how compassionate we are giving the odd child skin grafts and a teddy bear. Just pose for the fucking camera so CNN can get their free story courtesy of the small disfigured Iraqi child. Damn! If the war could only go on forever, right CNN? What does it take to get a job there? A diagnosis of sociopath?

    The same people who want Libby free are the same people who rule out amnesty for illegals.

    by MouseOfSuburbia on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:00:46 AM PDT

  •  Links, not all but some, lots of reading (7+ / 0-)

    23.6 million 2002

    22-25 million

    287 million x 7.8 percent = 22.3 million

    Population 22 million

    Even using the higher figure, 23.6 million it is nearly 33%

    Link to population and number of Iraqis killed by Saddam. I also mistyped, he was in power for 24 years not 28.

    Number of refugees in other countries, extrapolation of known numbers and rate of refugees arriving, plus refugees in other countries.      

    More refugee information  here

    Current number of refugees in country. And here, older information.

    40,000 orphans in orphanages

    Street kids and here

    I haven't started going thru the UN links

    We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

    by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:30:34 AM PDT

    •  put them in the diary (0+ / 0-)

      some info to add, but no links:

      I've seen in the past few days that estimates of Iraqi dead at 1.2 mil.

      Sweden accepts tens of thousands, and there has been some criticism of the EU as I believe that Swedes may be taking more than the rest of the zone. A possible reason the US is not taking refugees is because we are causing them. Again, in Sweden there was recently a refugee interviewed in the national paper who was in the Anfal WMD gassing- we now know that the Saddam's program was sponsored by the west and US, so, probably not a good idea to bring those people over, bad for propaganda.

      In doing your estimates, perhaps you could go back a bit further, to the eighties when we started arming Saddam and sponsored his was against Iran. I'm not sure if your info covers children who died under sanctions, but, iirc, that number was huge. You could mention the daily bombings around the no fly zones (prep for division?) You could mention the Iraqis that tried to oust Saddam after gulf war 1 that we turned our back on that were killed while we watched. You probably could go back even further to when the CIA had Saddam on their payroll.

      My belief- we have to subject the population, civil or otherwise, to terror, either real or just having the electricity off, cutting vital supplies (like what is happening to Gaza right now,) and things necessary to life, is unofficial US policy.

      •  I said Sweden has taken thousand more than (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        borkitekt

        we have, which is true, they have taken 9,000 plus.

        We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

        by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 05:43:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No the figures are from the 2003 invasion (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        borkitekt

        Operation Iraqi Freedom. Some of the sites calling about the current death toll also talk about the embargo, but as a comparison and as an exacerbating factor as in malnutrition.

        We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

        by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 05:46:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  that's what a "regime topple" (0+ / 0-)

    costs ya.
    Excellent post.
    In the most precise sense... tragedy.                        

  •  Well, that's part of building a democracy. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah

    Two of the three people left can vote to kill the third so those two can fight to the death over the last goat.

  •  And they say Ahmadinejad is worse. (0+ / 0-)

    Give me a fucking break.

  •  its not enough for Bush, Lieberman and Feinstein (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    troll me if you want, those are the facts

    fouls, excesses and immoderate behaviors will not be ignored at Over the line, Smokey!.

    by seesdifferent on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 06:43:27 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    I just had a conversation with my dead-ender mom a few days ago, who still insists that Iraqis are safer under the US than Saddam.  Uh-huh.  I forwarded this to her and everyone else on my mailing list.  Thank you.

    You can't tame the white supremacist power structure with cheese!

    by andlorr on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 07:23:47 AM PDT

  •  Excellent! (0+ / 0-)

    This needed to be said and needs to be posted everywhere!

    All I want from Congress is...IMPEACHMENT!

    by Temmoku on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 07:30:28 AM PDT

  •  deliberate systematic destruction is genocide. (0+ / 0-)

    What may appear to be chaos or a civil war is a well funded,well armed pitting of Iraqi factions against one another. I must be wrong,who would do such a thing?

    have we hit bottom yet?

    by eddienic on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:21:08 AM PDT

  •  Remember this? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ghengismom, borkitekt

    We had to destroy the village in order to save it.

    That was one of the most infamous quotations from the Vietnam War. What can we say about this one?

    We have to destroy Iraq in order to save it.

    Save it from what?

    This diary is highly recommended.

  •  This should be the number 1 diary (0+ / 0-)

    What an appalling disgrace the neoconservatives are.

  •  overlapping numbers? sources? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    I'm glad someone's doing this, but I don't tend to give credence to numbers unless they're sourced. Can we have a list with sources where you got each number?

    Also, are you perhaps double-counting people somewhere in there? For example, some people have both been injured AND are internally displaced. What's the time period these numbers cover? It's possible someone gets injured, then later gets killed. So maybe you can make a judgment as to how to adjust these numbers?

    Whatever the case, it is shocking. Thank you for putting pieces together.

    •  Links I posted further up in the comments (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      borkitekt

      I also gave my sources in the diary. I wouldn't think there wold be much double counting because the sources I used are experienced in this sort of documenting. Also the Lancet study was followed by a Johns Hopkins study with essentially the same numbers. The other problem for me, not so much for my sources, is the numbers are changing so quickly, organizations report on varying schedules so no matter what you do there has to be some extrapolation based on all the supporting evidence.

      We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

      by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:17:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Didn't know about the chlorine! Why don't they (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ghengismom

    just get it and guard it? The lack of safe drinking water at this point in Iraq, after 4.5+ years of war is outrageous. It's life and death!

    Cholera has already reached Baghdad and also S. Iraq, which has been reported upthread perhaps.

    It is staggering when you put it all together. I've written about the Iraqi children and no one much seems to be interested. But it is an epic tragedy! It will come back to haunt us no doubt. You cannot mess up that many lives and minds without severe consequences. Living all their lives in war, these millions of children will have a very tough time.

    God, I wish we had some sanity in our foreign policy. Republicans have damned many people to death or very rough lives. There are no words to express the depth of the disaster and the depth of my contempt for people who value others' lives so little.

    Thank you for the important, excellent diary!

    "...we overemphasize what technology can do. The most important fusion takes place inside people's brains." -Amy Zegart

    by Gorette on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:07:03 AM PDT

  •  In researching emotional issues (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    are of great concern to relief workers and health professionals. It is unlikely there is an Iraqi child who hasn't been affected by this war in a negative way.

    We aren't going to destroy the Republic by enforcing the Constitution, we destroy it by inaction, by being fearful of the consequences.

    by ghengismom on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:20:18 AM PDT

  •  Note of correction - someone does speak for those (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    Iraqis - the Iraqi resistance does. Probably some of the political parties in their ineffective political system do too.

    That these guys are both understanably unpopular in today's US and not heard often in US media outlets is undeniable. But in Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world, as any regular viewing of Al Jazeera will show, they do have a voice.

    Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

    by redstar on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:37:13 AM PDT

  •  And my opinion why the US can never win in Iraq; (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ghengismom, borkitekt

    The US has already LOST:

    The lives of 3801 US soldiers.

    Critical and serious injuries of 37,000+ US soldiers.

    Death from self-inflicted wounds of 122 US soldiers.

    Post-traumatic syndrome of 200,000+ US soldiers.

    The lost lives of 50,000 to 500,000+ Iraqis.

    The complete destruction of a sovereign nation.

    The wasted expenditure of $1 trillion+.

    Relations with 1.7 billion Muslims world-wide.

    The morals, ethics and reputation of the USA.

    There might be ways to 'cut our losses', but...

    Only a disillusioned person can believe there is a way to win in Iraq...

    Hoping we can do better before we annihilate ourselves...

    by OldManOnFire on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 09:38:18 AM PDT

  •  How can we get an even more accurate picture? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    This is an excellent way of looking at the disaster and it would be great if we can get some more really good numbers for this.  I doubt it is 35% but it is probably at least 25%.

    Would the U.N. or other refugee organizations have any estimate of the overlap between the displaced population and the casualties?  Perhaps an estimate on how much more likely it is for internally displaced people to become casualties?

    Also, someone needs to combine the several methods of estimating deaths in order to come up with a more readily accepted ballpark number (probably less than 1 million but still really, really bad).

    "I beseech you,... think it possible you may be mistaken." -- Cromwell/Bronowski

    by jockyoung on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 10:15:36 AM PDT

    •  I did read 1.2 mil the other day (0+ / 0-)

      From the Guardian

      Greenspan's damning comments about the war come as a survey of Iraqis, which was released last week, claims that up to 1.2 million people may have died because of the conflict in Iraq - lending weight to a 2006 survey in the Lancet that reported similarly high levels.

      More than one million deaths were already being suggested by anti-war campaigners, but such high counts have consistently been rejected by US and UK officials. The estimates, extrapolated from a sample of 1,461 adults around the country, were collected by a British polling agency, ORB, which asked a random selection of Iraqis how many people living in their household had died as a result of the violence rather than from natural causes.

      Previous estimates gave a range between 390,000 and 940,000, the most prominent of which - collected by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and reported in the Lancet in October 2006 - suggested 654,965 deaths.
      ...
      The ORB survey follows an earlier report by the organisation which suggested that one in four Iraqi adults had lost a family member to violence. The latest survey suggests that in Baghdad that number is as high as one in two. If true, these latest figures would suggest the death toll in Iraq now exceeds that of the Rwandan genocide in which about 800,000 died.

  •  So we are 1/3 of the way towards "peace in Iraq?" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hope4USnow

    I'm pretty sure this is how most neocons will see this.

  •  iraq and death (0+ / 0-)

    keep writing and researching gengismom
    you should be splashed on the front page marked EXTRA EXTRA
    War hurts
    It always has and the weak are the children the old the general civilian populous.
    They the controllers know this they are the penguin of Metro city and we are the Batmobile. jd

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