Daily Kos

Paul Hackett: Um.... at least you can't call him a whimp

Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:04:17 AM PDT

Former Congressional candidate and netroots hero Paul Hackett was involved in a little vigilante incident the other month.  It appears some hooligans crashed into a fence at his house in the middle of the night.  Instead of doing what I'd do - waking up from my bed in a state of panic and then proceeding to call the cops.. no wait.. first I would look out the window and hope it was my neighbor's problem... then I'd call the cops, Hackett decided to take care of things himself.

As the article reports,

Hackett said he had followed a trail of fluid left by the car, and the vehicle stopped in a driveway. Hackett told police that he hopped out of his truck and that he was armed.

"He told the boys to 'Get the ---- out of the car and get on the ground.' ... He said he did not touch the vehicle with the rifle and maintained his distance. 'I knew they saw I was armed,' he said. He said he had done this about 200 times in Iraq, but this time there was not a translation problem," the Indian Hill police report said.

And apparently the situation was under control until the cops arrived.

When White arrived at the house, Hackett's wife, Suzi, told him that her husband had called her to say he had stopped the men on Keller Road.

White called for backup. He arrived at a driveway in the 8700 block of Keller Road to find the three men lying face down near their small, black car and Hackett's pickup truck. With a flashlight, White saw a strap on Hackett's right shoulder and "what appeared to be an assault rifle hanging along his right side," White's report said.

White told Hackett to put away the rifle and "not take things into his own hands."

The driver was eventually charged with failure to maintain reasonable control, driving under suspension and carrying a concealed weapon - a pair of brass knuckles found in his pocket.

Now, I can't help but chuckle at this story.  Normally, I'll admit, I would read a story like this and kind of roll my eyes.  But this story is so interesting because, first, it involves a netroots hero that we can't get enough of, and second, it continues the utter destruction of the meme that Republicans and the media have spent years trying to craft - the Democrat as whimp.  I just can't get this image out of my head of Hackett slamming his truck door shut and striding up to the hooligans' car with his assault rifle and demanding the three get out of the car.  "You went and f*%ked with the wrong Democratic Congressional candidate," he would say to them.

Actually, Hackett's real quote was almost as funny..

Moore said Hackett was woken up by "criminal activity" and "took affirmative action to protect his wife and family from an unknown disturbance at his house."

Well... I guess Republicans can still try to criticize us for being pro-affirmative action.

Tags: Paul Hackett, Democrats, Ohio (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 123 comments

  •  I hope this guy runs for that seat again in 2008 (17+ / 0-)

    Congress could use a little vigilante justice.

    Your ad could be here.

    by TheC on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:02:51 AM PDT

  •  He probably (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TheC, Phoenix Woman, newfie, Allogenes

    only wanted to hug the guy.:)


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:05:10 AM PDT

  •  When is Voinovich up for re-election? I think (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    joesig, boofdah, atdnext, 0wn, Allogenes

    we have our candidate!

    What if they gave a war and nobody profited?

    by BerkeyBee on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:07:46 AM PDT

  •  That was not a smart action on his part (11+ / 0-)

    If he took a gun and followed them off his property, he was not in danger and had no right to do what he did.  The police will likely file charges against him, and he is almost guaranteed a civil suit against him by the guys in the car.

    You cannot (especially off your property) pull out a deadly weapon unless you fear for your (or someone elses) life.

    •  unless you're in Florida (4+ / 0-)

    •  I agree, chasing the guys (5+ / 0-)

      with a rifle was a bit much.

      I am a democrat, not a progressive.

      by seminole83 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:11:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      newfie, atdnext, tommymet, Allogenes

      I didn't actually talk about the rest of that article, but if you go read the link, you'll see that there is discussion about whether the case is really closed or not.  There may be a grand jury investigation going on still.  So, perhaps there is a chance that Hackett may end up in some hot water from this.  I sure hope not.  

      Your ad could be here.

      by TheC on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:14:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you'll recall that little (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sclminc, LithiumCola

      hand-out prepared by the FBI on how to identify potential domestic terrorists, one of the indicators was the inclination to "police the police."
      Our agents of law enforcement really don't like to be told how to do their jobs by civilians and, had Hacket been black, there was a big risk that he could have gotten shot on the spot.
      This despite Justice Anthony Kennedy's position that the public is entitled to enforce the law.  Making a citizen's arrest is not appreciated by the official agents of law enforcement.

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:20:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess I'm a terrorist (7+ / 0-)

        I called the state police on my cell this morning to report a dangerous driver.  He was tailgating 10 feet away from another car at 70 mph in a 55 zone when he had space to go around, and generally driving aggressively.

        I gave them the plate and neglected to mention the back of the car read "County Police".

        The Republicans were right about one thing - The media is irresponsible.

        by nightsweat on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:26:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You obviously don't live in Los Angeles (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          nightsweat, carolita

          He was tailgating 10 feet away from another car at 70 mph in a 55 zone when he had space to go around, and generally driving aggressively.

          That's everyday driving here...10 feet?  Hell, I do 70 in 35mph zones just about daily (It's not my fault, my MINI really, really, really loves those dang curves).

          But I am laughing that you called on the County Police.  I did that a few weeks ago.  Traffic was gridlocked and we were going about 40 mph and the white sherrif's car was just weaving in and out of traffic.   I watched this guy do this for about 2 miles.  I figured if it were a pick up truck or sports car doing it, I'd call, so why not.  The dispatcher was funny, because I described the car, gave her the license plate and it she said, "Ma'am, that's a...that's a county car."  I told her that I knew and hung up.  

          Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

          by fabooj on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:55:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It irks me to no end (0+ / 0-)

            If the police don't obey the law, why should anyone else?

            I'm willing to be a lawbreaker, I'm willing to be a solid citizen and obey all the laws.

            I'm not willing to be a patsy and obey laws the police find unimportant.

            The Republicans were right about one thing - The media is irresponsible.

            by nightsweat on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:33:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What I hate (0+ / 0-)

              Is when they change lanes without signaling, but will pull someone over for doing the same.  Oooh, the other one is when they turn on their lights to run a red light, then turn them off and continue to cruise 5 miles below the limit.  Ugh.  I think the cops here in Los Angeles, get some perverse joy in breaking the driving rules.

              Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

              by fabooj on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:44:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Again, that really depends (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        joesig

        On where you are and how you handle it.  As you noted, the color of your skin (and the cut of your clothes, and your accent) unfortunately does matter.  But plenty of cops are perfectly happy to have "civilians" lend a hand, as long as they defer to the cops' expertise and authority when they finally get there.  There's also the fact that in a lot of places, everybody knows everybody, and that includes the cops -- they're your neighbors and your kids hang out together, or you share extra garden cuttings and crochet patterns with their wives.  Hell, I've had a dozen local cops and three of their current prisoners through my sleep lab in the last three years; a woman I trained to take over the lab 20 minutes away is married to a rent-a-cop and used to be an MP, but her mother is director of Nursing at the hospital she's working in .... barriers of officiousness tend to break down under such circumstances.  And when everybody knows someone who's a cop or has been in the military, there are shared expectations as to how matters get handled so you aren't as likely to tread on their toes.

        After all, most places I've lived, if you waited for the cops to arrive to handle a life-and-death matter, you'd be dead long before they got there.  When something has to be done, it has to be done -- not called in and waited about for 45 minutes response time.

    •  That depends ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joesig

      On where you live and how well you deal with the cops ... do you have a record, and did you really "cross the line"?  In southern Ohio where this happened, Hackett basically followed "code".  1) they started it by vandalizing his property; 2)the driver of the vehicle was breaking the law merely by driving under suspension; 3) Hackett has a military record demonstrating that he knows how to handle his firearm safely; 4)he didn't discharge his firearm; 5) he simply held the suspects under armed guard until the legal authority came to collect them.  The hooligans could sue him if they have a lot of money to waste, but under civil court procedure, any jury around here is far more likely to laugh them out of court than to hold Hackett responsible for damages.  What damages?  It's his fence that they busted up, and nobody got hurt.  In New York or California, maybe the driver could plead as a "victim".  But don't expect that to pass muster anywhere bordering the Appallachians.  'Round hereabouts, folks tend to approve of people who assume personal responsibility for maintaining law and order.

      •  Scariest night was in Nowhere, WV (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        joesig

        I got hit by a drunk driver one night. It was out in the middle of 'no man's land.' He was driving in my lane...coming directly at me...he almost killed me. Because I swerved towards a driveway, he clipped the back panel of the driver's side. I was so pissed that I chased him down and got him to pull over to the side of the road. Got his information and took it to the police.

        County cops weren't sure that it was in their county since I didn't have a specific location. I just knew where it'd happened.

        State cops were unavailable to talk with.

        I finally wound up breaking down into tears in the Sheriff's office. They took the address, told me how to go about getting a warrant for his arrest, and then went out and scared the crap out of him and his roommate. Because I'd done the right thing and given him my info, the roommate called me and screamed at me for sending the sheriff after his roommate.

        Turned out he didn't have insurance.

        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

        by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:24:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  depends on what (0+ / 0-)

      the OH laws are with regards to carrying rifles. He didn't point it.

      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

      by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:16:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  On The View the other day (5+ / 0-)

    I'm sorry, the comediene - redhead not Rosie - said as much about the Dems having new strong leaders in the Dem leadership - not like the draft dodgers in the Minority (gee, that felt good) - and Paul Hackett - he just cements the idea - a strong, take charge proud Democratic Veteran!  Hell yeah!

  •  If a Republican did this (13+ / 0-)

    Everyone on this site would be calling them a crazy out-of-control gun nut.

    •  have to agree here (8+ / 0-)

      That was a pretty boneheaded thing to do. Call the cops next time, Paul. You're not living in Baghdad any more.

      Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

      by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:14:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (7+ / 0-)

      And that is the point I made in the diary.  Normally I would roll my eyes (disapprovingly I guess I should have added).  But in this case, what stood out was that it was a Democratic politician, who by law, should be a whimp.  So... I don't mean to sound like I was celebrating this event.  It actually may turn out to be bad news.

      Your ad could be here.

      by TheC on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:15:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  very true, you've got it (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Phoenix Woman, joesig, atdnext

      The Republicans love out of control gun nuts, so it will make it hard for them to criticize him over this.  They will , but it won't work with their base.  Criticizing him for it will only make him stronger.

      Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

      by Mad Kossack on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:17:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If he shot them, maybe (5+ / 0-)

      I have no problem with Hackett stopping 'em the way he did.  Nor do I think he's going to face any serious repercussions for doing so, unless he got the wrong guys.

      As for political fallout -- the Rubpublicans will attack a Dem for anything.  It's reflexive.  But I'm not worried about an attack for keeping and bearing arms, or for failing to coddle criminals.  Yeah, Hackett's not the conventional politician, but he's not really unpredictable -- if you'd asked me what would happen if someone decided  to f*ck with him, I'd say they should make sure they were wearing Kevlar.

      •  If anything, this would HELP Hackett in a race (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        atdnext

        If not in Ohio's Second (where he probably won't run again so long as Victoria Wulsin or somebody else intends to run in 2008), then somewhere else with a similarly rural makeup.

        Remember, this is the guy who called Rush Limbaugh a "fatass drug addict".  And most Limbaugh listeners liked it because he showed he wasn't a wimp.

      •  You have no problem (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zenbowl, ormondotvos, seminole83

        with a person armed with an assault rifle following someone else and aiming that weapon?  Okay - now say the individual who was followed had a bit too much to drink and lunges at Hackett.  What does he do?  Open up with his weapon?  In a residential area?  Shoot someone for ramming into his fence?

        Frankly, my reaction was...."of all the stupid assed things to do."

        I would have a different reaction say if he confronts someone breaking into his home.  I would have a different reaction if he did this to an individual assaulting another person.  But... WTF?

        Seems to me that his next political venture (if he has one) might be faced with an ad compaign portraying him as volatile and over the top.  A reactionary!  Do you really want someon like that representing you?

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:43:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In Southern Ohio (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          joesig

          They will say "YES".

          All actions occur in a social context.  Rural southern Ohio isn't the Northeast or the Left Coast.  Frankly, that's the way things are handled by Responsible People (who aren't wimps) around here.  Only the fat-and-lazy-rich-boys sit on their cans and wait for somebody else to do it for them.

          You'd get the same reaction in West Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, Virginia SOTR/ROVA, and most of Missouri.  Context.  Remember, he didn't fire the rifle.  That, from a man who's hoppin' mad at being waken up by vandals in the middle of the night, indicates perfectly good self-control.

        •  From the article... (0+ / 0-)

          the weapon doesn't appear to have been aimed at anyone.

          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

          by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:27:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  True enough (0+ / 0-)

            I should have written "brandished".

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:30:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He was carrying a rifle... (0+ / 0-)

              it was at his side...from the article.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:31:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hypothetical, Kredwyn. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                ormondotvos

                Part of the reason that law enforcement personnel, at least in my region, would rather folks not go chasing after others brandishing assault rifles is that one never knows what happens as a result of those actions.  So that is the reaons for my what if's.  Goes to my point that I see this as an overreaction to the situation.

                "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

                by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:34:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He chased after them with his truck... (0+ / 0-)

                  He had his rifle at his side. You're what if moves into the realm of hyperbole.

                  Here's what happened to me quite literally 10 minutes outside Morgantown, WV: link.

                  Police are fine. But they aren't always around. And sometimes they don't respond in the way you'd wish...until you break down and start crying right in the middle of the office.

                  The only reason this made the news and DKos is because it was Paul Hackett and not Joe Public.

                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                  by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:41:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  He would've gotten the same (0+ / 0-)

              effect if he were carrying the shileghlie a friend of mine carries in her car...rural WV is a lot like rural OH.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:34:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  For what its worth (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                newfie

                Let me assure you that this is not rural Ohio we're talking about.  Indian Hill is the most exclusive suburb in the state.  In fact, I believe Indian Hill has more millionaires per capita than anywhere in the US except maybe Beverly Hills.. or something like that.

                Your ad could be here.

                by TheC on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:10:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  From what I remember... (0+ / 0-)

                  of my visits to family in the area, there's a lot more space between houses than where I'm living right now. My next door neighbor is 12" away.

                  From the picture attached to the article, there are some decent stands of trees behind and to the side of his house.

                  And he'd still have gotten the same effect with her shileighlie (she lived in Morgantown)...or the mini baseball bat I keep under my car seat.

                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                  by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:18:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  But I do like how you've leapt... (0+ / 0-)

          from carrying a rifle to going Rambo and destroying everything in sight.

          Again, from the article, it appears as though he never even touched them.

          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

          by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:29:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  If a Republican... (6+ / 0-)

      And if a Republican did this, the Media would get him elected President in '08...  and Media would say that the three goons were Democratic operatives...

      -N.B.

      "Don't look back... something might be gaining on you..." -Satchel Paige.

      by npb7768 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:22:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I certainly wouldn't (1+ / 0-)

      As long as he was within the law. However, it's long been a concern of mine that this kind of behavior is being ingrained in the younger troops in Iraq, and that will have consequences down the line. Along with PTSD and depression, thats the worst thing about the war.

      Then again maybe Hackett has always been that crazy.

    •  Whoa, (0+ / 0-)

      Um, Hackett is an experienced war veteran who probably is more qualified to pull over hooligans than the cops he called, your typical republican...not so much.  IE Cheney.  I think those kind of nitwits qualify as rightwing gun nuts.

      Female bodybuilders; high performance, not high maintenance.

      by Strawberrybitch on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:57:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hackett is not (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zenbowl, ormondotvos

        more qualified than a police officer.  I do not understand your logic.  Hackett has been trained to fire a weapon.  But as a lawyer and as an militray officer he should know better.

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:14:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do you know any cops? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          joesig, Shaking the Tree

          Ask any local cops how many times they've drawn their weapons.  My uncle was in law enforcement for 40 years, pulled his weapon twice.  Not much pratice there.  Husband was an MP, never pulled his weapon, now that he's in Iraq as a 19K, well... you get the picture.  And if you knew how some local yocals with smaller departments get hired, you'd be terrified.  PS have you heard about the new reality show where Ozzy Osbourne's son is trying to become a cop?  And Eric Estrada?  Nuff said.

          Female bodybuilders; high performance, not high maintenance.

          by Strawberrybitch on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:29:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As a matter of fact I do. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ormondotvos

            I know suburban cops who have not pulled a weapon in years.  I know urban cops who have had to use their weapons.And I would think that presented with the same situation as Hackett, none of the cops I know would have pulled a weapon.  It was a traffic accident.  Did Hackett have every right to be alarmed? YEs.  Was he right in pulling out his weapon to defend himselve, his wife, his home?  Certainly.  He crossed the line when he pusued them.  He used poor judgement in my opinion.

            My point was that Hackett is not more qualified because he is not a police officer.  Having the skill and ability to use a weapon does not make one qualified to take police action.  Isn't that the point with the Minutemen or any other vigilante force?

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:57:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I can't blame him. (6+ / 0-)

    I've had to deal with a lot of very abusive trespassers in the last couple of years. There has been a time or two when the ol' shotgun came out of the corner.

    I'm really curious if the Freepers will hear about this and what their reaction will be.  I don't think I'll go over and look though, too creepy for me.

    Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

    by Mad Kossack on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:13:56 AM PDT

    •  Did you read the article? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Blindfish, ormondotvos, seminole83

      The driver failed to negotiate a turn at a proper speed and as a result lost control and hit Hackett's fence.  No attempt at assault using the vehicle to ram past the Hackett defenses.  An accident.  One which was responded to by police.  The driver did not drive off to be pursued but stopped in another driveway - near the scene of the accident.  The driver was 18 or 19.  The "criminal" activity was causing property damage, not maintianing control of a vehicle, perhaps speeding.

      Hackett's action was just plain stupid and unneccesary.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:59:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been trying to think of the RW spin (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        newfie, ormondotvos

        and it goes something like this ...

        "In attempt to establish his tough-guy cred, loser congressional wannabe chases down crummy driver with assault rifle."

        To be honest, considering that this happened a while ago, if there were going to be any spin, my guess is it would have been spun already.

        Also, gun control seems to have faded somewhat as a left vs right issue -- perhaps due to Dean's support for states rights on firearms?

        Even so, it will be interesting to see how this story emerges should Hackett run again.

        "The fate of all mankind, I see, is in the hands of fools." -- King Crimson, "Epitaph," 1969

        by Blindfish on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:28:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  dude (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blogswarm

        you really don't like Paul do you?

        I'm not exactly sure where you're from, but I'm from Cincinnati and I can tell you that Keller Rd where the police arrived isn't close to Paul's house.  In fact, Keller Rd. is along the long straight-away portion of Given Rd.  There are curves near the beginning of the road, where Paul's house is.  Keller Rd is not in this section of the road and they would have had to pass multiple streets before turning down Keller.
        Once I read that they police responded to Keller Rd, that was pretty clear to me that they were taking off and the vehicle was so badly damaged and losing fluid they were forced to stop where they did.

        You may not like Paul, fine.  You may think what he did was excessive, fine.  But talking out of your ass and claiming the kids did "not drive off to be pursued but stopped in another driveway - near the scene of the accident" is so far from the truth it makes everything else you write seem absurd.

        •  Actually, I liked what I saw in Hackett (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          redstatewoes, ormondotvos

          and would have voted for him in a heartbeat.  And you are correct.  I wrote out of turn assuming that they didn't get far from the scene since the driver was not charged with leaving a scene of the accident and the article did not appear to state that the vehicle was able to go a great distance.  And, yes, that would color my commentary.

          I thought what he did was an over-reaction and not too bright.  This kind of incident would give me pause in considering him for my vote.  Depends on his opponent and whether it was a primary or a run against a Republican etc.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:01:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Allright (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            newfie

            I can see your point.  Keep in mind though the article is written by the Cincinnati Enquirer.  No matter what happened, they aren't going to try to give Paul or any other "liberal type" good press.  That said, it certainly seems like he went a little off the deep end.  The Indian Hill police said the case was closed as far as they are concerned.  Indian Hill police are extremely professional but it seems that sometimes that they won't rock the boat, so they will just let this quietly die.  Hamilton County prosecutors office is hardcore right-winger which is who apparently called for the grand jury.

      •  yeah I read the article (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        newfie

        and I think he over-reacted a bit. I'm not willing to put him in front of a firing squad over it.

        Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

        by Mad Kossack on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:33:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

          no firing squad.  But at the same time I also wouldn't sing his praises.  My reaction was to your abusive trespasser comment.  Which was my thought from reading the diary at first.  Reading the story gave a different impression.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:40:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hackett's a lawyer (7+ / 0-)

    He knows what he can and cannot do.

    He figured that he was saving the cops some time -- they didn't need to chase the perps down; he did it for them.

    With most people, this would be madness.  But this is what his job was over in Iraq.  He knew what he was doing.   (And if he ever runs again, it'll help him a lot.)

    •  do you think, then (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sclminc, newfie, atdnext

      that all Iraqi veterans should be toting assault rifles and maintaining vigilante justice across the country?

      We don't need cowboys "saving the cops some time." That shit gets people hurt. That's what's going on in Iraq, after all.

      Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

      by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:21:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You should talk to my Marine brother about this (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        joesig, Jared Lash, atdnext, 0wn

        He was disgusted -- yes, disgusted -- with the people on the planes that were hijacked on 9/11.  Why?  Because only in one instance, and only because they realized that the hijackers were going to kill them all anyway (some of the passengers had their cell phones out and had been told by their loved ones about the Twin Towers and Pentagon hits) did any of them attempt to fight back.

        I tried to tell my brother that "well, passengers are told not to fight back against hijackers (or were prior to 9/11, just like we're told to call the cops if somebody breaks into our homes", but he wouldn't have any of that.  Make of that what you will.

        •  Poor analogy. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zenbowl

          At what point (until he confronted the folks with an assault rifle) was anyone's life threatened?  So let's go back on that plane and cue up a more similar analogy.  You are sitting in row 5 seat c and notice that 2 rows infront of you someone is damaging the seatback.  You pull out your glock and charge up the aisle to save the day?

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:48:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  didn't you read the diary? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            newfie

            The three drunk drivers had hijacked Paul Hackett's fence and were prepared to crash it into the White House.

            Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

            by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:55:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

              I just skimmed it.  My bad.

              "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

              by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:58:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I think you missed... (0+ / 0-)

              the other point about the idea that many folks stand aside and quietly think something like "Let the authorities take care of it. It's none of my business."

              A few months back, I had a young man arrested for drunk driving. He was 3 sheets to the wind and driving around in a new car when he pulled up and started talking to me while I was headed for my car. After noting that his eyes were glazed over and he was slurring his words, I advised him to park his car and go into the restaurant for coffee. I also told him I'd be calling the cops if he didn't.

              The parking was bad. Then his friend pulled up. He backed out of his spaces, into a Corolla, and parked next to his friend's car.

              That's when the cop showed up (I hadn't called yet). So I went over to the officer, who'd shown up for his dinner. I explained the situation. And the cop got the drunk kid out of the car, tested him, and arrested him right there.

              I think her brother's point is that there's a tone of "Keep your head down. Don't get involved. Go along to get along" socialization that he's concerned about.

              He doesn't want people to do stupid things. But too many people avert their eyes when they see something  going wrong.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 08:54:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's a mile's difference (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                newfie

                Between telling someone that they shouldn't drive and using an assault rifle to do the same thing. I'm not saying "don't get involved" I'm saying "don't be a maniac."

                And, please, the 9/11 analogy? Give me a break. Your story is more apt, but I fail to see the M-16 in your narrative.

                Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

                by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 10:42:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  M 16? (0+ / 0-)

                  The article says it's an AR 15, which is a hunting/sport rifle and a semi-automatic one rather than the fully automatic rifle (M 16) that Marine Hackett would've been assigned during his tour in Iraq.

                  I think that he would've been a maniac had he actually opened fire on the car. I think he'd have been a maniac if he'd pointed it at the guys in the car.

                  From what I read in the article, he's been a target from the wing-nut brigade...making him a little more tense about assaults to his personal space...followed the car in his truck, and got the guys out of the car.

                  Why did he have a rifle at his side? I don't know...but let me tell you about one of my interesting canvassing experiences during the special election in OH-2...

                  So there I was...me, driving...two other canvassers riding along. We go up a long driveway to talk with a few people about Paul Hackett.

                  No one came out of the house, so we decided to get out and see if the folks were in back. Putting the car in park, we get out of the car and head up to the front door.

                  As we're headed up the path to the door, I notice this basketball hoop.

                  It looks like a pretty standard hoop. Well except for the swastika painted on the backboard. Yes, that was a swastika.

                  I check my cellphone (out of range) and point this out to the guys I'm with, both of whom are young DNC interns from the DC Metro area. they both agreed with me that it was a swastika.

                  We'd been told that there might be a few people on the list who'd signed up to screw with the Dems. Guess that house was one of them.

                  We left. I wasn't armed. But it's likely that they inhabitants of that house were...and maybe not legally.

                  If Hackett did something that was illegal by OH law, it will be determined and he will face the consequences.

                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                  by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 11:12:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    newfie, ormondotvos

                    Plenty of politicians have been harrassed. It's not a new trick. That doesn't mean you can run willy-nilly after folks wielding an assault rifle. That's just a bone-headed thing to do.

                    And, FYI, I know the difference between an AR-15 and an M-16. The AR-15 is not a hunting rifle, it's a semi-automatic assault rifle. Anyone who goes hunting with an AR-15 is either a sadistic bastard or doesn't understand what the word "hunt" means.

                    Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

                    by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 12:05:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not an assault rifle either... (0+ / 0-)

                      the M 16 is an assault rifle, which is by definition an automatic weapon.

                      The AR 15 is a semi-auto, that he didn't aim, didn't take off the safety, and didn't finger the trigger. It is not an assault rifle:

                      Semi-automatic rifles, including commercial versions of the AR-15, are not assault rifles as they lack the capability for automatic fire.

                      Note the sport rifle part? It is used for sport shooting.

                      Boneheaded...maybe. But as I noted earlier...

                      If Hackett did something that was illegal by OH law, it will be determined and he will face the consequences.

                      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                      by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 12:33:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  common sense (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        newfie

                        Let's stop making excuses here. Common sense tells us that a clip loaded semi-automatic rifle modeled on the M-16 with 30-round clips which are banned in California are not "hunting" rifles.

                        Common sense also tells us that Hackett grossly overreacted to this situation. If he was able to find the vehicle by following a trail of fluids, then it seems unlikely that the car was going to be able to flee the scene unnoticed.

                        If Ohio law finds otherwise, then fine, but irresponsible use of firearms is something that the GOP will certainly use in a political campaign. The idea of a hysterical democrat swinging around an AR15 is attack ad fodder.

                        Insight into change teaches us hope. No matter how bad the situation, anything is possible. - Buddha

                        by zenbowl on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 01:43:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh for crying out loud... (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm really not interested in ascribing to a political/rhetorical term that's used to scare the crap out of people because California "bans" it re: guns anymore that I'd be willing to ascribe to another idea set forth by political entities as something to be feared, like gay marriage, set forward and banned in another state...say OH.

                          "Assault Weapon" is a political/rhetorical term. It was designed to scare people.

                          And it's done a damn good job of that.

                          There is a distinct, and common sense, difference between  semi-auto and full automatic weapons. One shoots one bullet at a time. The other shoots more than one bullet at a time and is covered by the National Firearms Act...passed in 1934.

                          It was 4 am. Do you know how quickly fulids seep into the pavement? Evaporate? Smear out with the passing of other vehicles?

                          I sure don't. But I'm not willing to second guess and make "presumed guilty" judgements based on a single newspaper article.

                          As I said before:

                          Boneheaded...maybe. But as I noted earlier...

                           

                          If Hackett did something that was illegal by OH law, it will be determined and he will face the consequences.

                          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                          by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 02:05:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  So we've gone from... (0+ / 0-)

                          "The Dems want to take your guns" to "Lookit the crazy goofball Dem trying to shoot the guns"?

                          Seriously?

                          I can see people standing and saying "What? Dems own guns?" and then shutting down in much the way Marvin does in Hitchhiker's Guide does when the world gets too weird for him.

                          If it turns out that he didn't do anything wrong, Hackett will hardly be seen as hysterical. Indeed, he'll probably be seen by many in rural communities as a "real," "straight up," and "non-tassle shoe wearing."

                          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                          by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 02:28:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

  •  Welcome to Man World. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman, atdnext, tommymet

    I was explaining Man World to my attorney yesterday as he was urging me not to wreak havoc on a guy who has stolen from me, and his lawyer.  In Man World, there are repercussions, immediate and painful, against certain kinds of behavior.  That sudden flash of pain as you realize you've just been punched in the face?....Welcome to Man World.

    I am dismayed, though not surprised, by the criticism of Hackett's action.    

    To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

    by joesig on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:18:49 AM PDT

  •  What worries me most about this.... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sclminc, atdnext

    ...is what worries Hackett's lawyer:  That somebody thought it would be cute to leak grand jury information to the press.

    Yeah, I know, that law is honored mainly in the breach nowadays.  But still.

    •  Three drunk punks, looking for an unfair fight... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tommymet, 0wn

      hence the brass knuckles, crash their car into someone's property.  They are followed, placed under citizen's arrest, and turned over to the police.  No one got hurt.  It is legal, under the constitution that we sometimes think we believe in, to own a weapon.  No one got shot.  The police would NEVER have investigated a property crime like this because they are too busy, well, looking for drunk punks with brass knuckles after they beat someone up or kill someone on the highway.  

      This is a great story. Just enjoy it and stop the hand-wringing.  

      To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

      by joesig on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 06:48:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the article. (0+ / 0-)

        Your drunk punks looking for an unfair fight may not have been there.  No where in the article does it state that the driver or passengers were intoxicated.  

        The driver was charged with failure to maintain reasonable control, driving under suspension and carrying a concealed weapon - a pair of brass knuckles found in his pocket - according to the Indian Hill

        So not drunk but carry a concealed weapon.  That makes it different.  But the 3 of them did not proceed to attempt to injure anyone on the property, did not attempt to break into Hackett's home, the drove down the road an unspecified distance.

        police

        The incident happened around 4:30 a.m. Nov. 19. Police were called to Hackett's Indian Hill house after Fee failed to make a curve and ran into a fence at the home on Given Road, according to the police report.

        What would he do if someone had kicked his dog?

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:08:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gah! (0+ / 0-)

          blockquote creep!  Sorry about that.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:09:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's called analysis. Three men at 4:30 AM.... (0+ / 0-)

          can't negotiate a turn in a residential neighborhood?  My analysis says they were drinking.  You are right--it is not clear in the article.  No one not looking for a fight carries brass knuckles.  They are a punk's weapon, meant to impress when not used, create huge and ugly scars when used.  

          To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

          by joesig on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:23:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And in my experience (0+ / 0-)

            three young guys (underage) in this day and age would quickly get charged with driving under the influence, drunk in publicc (for the passengers), drinking under age etc..  You are making too many assumptions.  And, frankly, the same ones I did until I read the article.  

            I do not know why this kid was carrying brass knuckles.  Perhaps he had been somewhere where he was afraid that he might get jumped.  Perhaps he was looking for someone who he had a beef with and he was going to sucker punch him.  Or perhaps he was just plain stupid and thought that he would look cooler to his friends if he carried around these brass knuckles.  "Don't mess with Joe, he has brass knuckles".  Doesn't matter.  Hackett had no idea that he was carrying them.

            But while we are dealing in fantasy, what if the kid had a gun and thought Hackett was bluffing?  What if he had a wallet in his hand and thought Hackett was a cop.  What if Hackett at 4:30 in the am, thought the wallet was a gun and opened up.  Or what if Hackett, assessed the situation first, realized that it was an accident and that the soon to arrive police officers could handle their job and didn't go hunting with his AR15?

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:38:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Too Many Assumptions (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kredwyn, joesig

              As a witness to your "debate" here, it seems that you both are making too many assumptions.

              First of all, newfie, you seem to be putting a LOT of credibility on the article.  Haven't the last 6 years of so-called "media reports" made you at all skeptical of what you read?

              Also, you're both assuming that these kids weren't the children of someone "important" within a small, rural community.  How do you know that one of those kids wasn't the son of the police office who responded to the scene?  Or the reporter who wrote the article?  Drunk or not is not necessarily the issue.  Also, given how rancid hate radio has gotten, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hackett's been singled out as one Dem that needs "a learnin'".

              I'm just saying that there's not a lot of info here except for the bare facts.  A lot of other stuff could've affected the way things went down.  It doesn't benefit either of you to try and assume your way is the right way when nobody really knows (except the 3 kids, perhaps).

              Now, I'm going to leave your discussion.  I just wanted to add my 2 cents.  ;-)

  •  I don't know... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jared Lash, tommymet

    On one hand, those crooks were traspassing his property...

    But on the other hand, chasing down crooks is kinda supposed to be a job for the police...

    But then again, I'm an urbanite who lives in a fairly big city with a strong police force. I don't know what the police are like in exurban Cincinatti. Well, at least it's nice to hear an update on Paul Hackett!

    : )

  •  Sorry, this is bullsh*t. (4+ / 0-)

    Running down people with weapon after they've left your property is Bullsh*t.  Pure unadulterated asshole behavior.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:01:28 AM PDT

    •  Don't know how much damage there was (0+ / 0-)

      but when I was a youngster we used to do stuff just as bad and nobody aimed rifles at us.

      I am a democrat, not a progressive.

      by seminole83 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:05:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is pathetic. So afraid of your shadow.... (0+ / 0-)

      you can't even spell bullshit right.  Six years of fear of confrontation on the anti-Republican side have led to what...exactly?  Two disastrous wars, giant deficits, a constitution ignored and ridiculed.  Three drunk punks armed with brass knuckles and a two-ton assault weapon got arrested with no violence, because, at heart, they are frightened punks who were faced with bravery for the very first time in their lives.  Maybe Kennedy is channeling Hackett...just watch as the rest of the Democrats run away.    

      To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

      by joesig on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:13:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the article. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        newfie

        Hackett had the assault weapon, not the kids.

        Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

        by Dartagnan on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:17:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The one with headlights (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          newfie, Dartagnan

          THAT two-ton assault weapon.

          Explaining, not defending.

          Political Compass: -7.13, -5.13

          by thiroy on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:20:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He also didn't run them (0+ / 0-)

          down with a gun. He followed them with his truck. He got out of the truck with a rifle that he never aimed...according to the article, he never pointed it at anyone. And according to the article, he maintained a reasonable distance away from the guys who allegedly knocked his fence over.

          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

          by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 09:02:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh please. Give me a break. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            newfie, ormondotvos

            The guy chased down some teenagers with an ansault weapon slung over his shoulder. Quit apologizing for him. He's an asshole.

            Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

            by Dartagnan on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 10:22:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  an assault weapon? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              joesig

              Sorry...but last I checked, the "assault weapon" designation was a phrase based on a rhetorical strategy aimed at spooking an audience re: cosmetic features. The rifle he was carrying is a hunting/sport rifle. It's not even an assault rifle, which is an automatic weapon.

              No one's apologizing for him. No one's excusing him. If it's determined by OH law that he did something illegal, then he'll take the hit.

              Last I checked, 18/18/19 year olds are adults under the law...and they are the same age as many of the Marines who were with Hackett in Iraq.

              I just think that the "chasing down"..."running down"...language is a bit much considering that the article's pretty clear.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 10:50:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Joesig (0+ / 0-)

        before you embellish any further read the article.  Three young adults (18-19 years old) driving too fast lost control of a vehicle.  One happened to be carrying brass knuckles - it appears that no one was drunk - the driver certainly wasn't or those charges would have been filed, the passengers were not likely to have been drunk or we would have read about charges filed against the 2 passengers and there were none.  And frankly, faced by someone aiming an assault rifle would certainly make me consider preserving my life.

        You are acting as though Hackett repeeled three masked and dangerous criminals attempting to wreck mayhem, assualt his wife, steal his possessions and kick his dog.  Nope just a stupid fricking accident to which Hackett over-reacted.

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:22:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Must be some kind of (0+ / 0-)

          no spell-checking bug going around.  I need a nap.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:23:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I make the larger point, this kind of .... (0+ / 0-)

          hand-wringing despite obvious illegal and unconstitutional actions is why Bush has run roughshod over this country for six years.  

          I responded above with my analysis, but...the article is NOT clear as to whether or not they were drinking.  Maybe they were just driving so recklessly at 4:30 AM they couldn't negotiate a curve in a residential street.  And drove away because, after all, it wasn't their fence.  

          Did you read the article?  Hackett clearly says he never pointed the weapon.  You made it up.  

          I go back to my first comment: "This is a great story. Just enjoy it and stop the hand-wringing.".  I prefer if people get arrested for criminal, dangerous, and destructive behavior.  Had Hackett not acted, they would have never been arrested and charged.  No one got hurt and the good guys won.  You would have done nothing.  I get it.  You don't live in Man World, and that is your right.  

          To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

          by joesig on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:36:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're correct. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ormondotvos

            Hackett said he never pointed the weapon at him.  I should have written that faced with someone brandishing an assault rifle.

            Now what you made up was that the three men were dangerous drunken punks with a 2 ton assault weapon.  That the police would never have responded and that the men would never have been arrested and charged.  Facts of the matter is that the police did respond, no one was arrested and the driver was charged for driving offenses and for carrying the brass knuckles.

            And no, I don't feel it necessary to declare I live in "Man World" like that even means anything.  What next?  Gonna call me a sissy?

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Wed Jan 10, 2007 at 07:47:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  OK, let's stick to the known facts: (3+ / 0-)

          1.  A man with a suspended license and two other men lost control of their vehicle at 4:30 AM and crashed into a fence on private property.
          1.  They left the scene of the accident.
          1.  The homeowners called police and then followed the fleeing car.  He took a legal weapon with him.
          1.  The car pulled over, on another street, to assess the damage to their car.
          1.  The homeowner found them and conducted a