*FINAL UPDATE* Dale Peters: The tragedy at DKos that wasn't?

(For the historical record: This diary is a followup to a critical discussion which Torta launched on events surrounding what was previously shared with DKos, by others, about the private life of Dale Peters)

Ah, what tangled webs are woven.

People often exaggerate their history in small amounts, either idealizing or pumping up their travails without actually intending to deceive.  Not a big deal, usually - it's just the retelling of history through a minor filter of your ego or rewired paths in your brain.

That's different than having a compulsion or even nefarious goal in lying to others.

Essentially, an alias at Daily Kos, dale peters, became entwined with a newer alias, Janet G, as Dale's wife.  Their stories, revolving around themes of Military Veteran support and related political issues, became part of a larger mythos concerning her heroic past and eventual, sorrowful death in Dale's arms.

Things may not have been so straightforward.

See more below the fold and the summarizing *FINAL UPDATE*

Latest research at the time of this diary's creation indicated that Dale may have lived with his mother and son, but perhaps not Janet.  Yet, it gets even more involved from a meta standpoint - online integrity and trust issues have blurred actual facts from being evident or easy to accept.  This is an inherent exposure in every virtual community.

Following from a supposed online death march with political intrigue at DKos (edit: llbear may have voluntarily deleted that diary entry), and the interesting followup revelations, this diary goes even further into the muck, seeking to offer information for the community.  I will admit my formed interpretation - from discovered facts- showing throughout this diary's presentation of said research, though my opinions are always open to change from new revelations by trustworthy sources.

Dale Peters has a growing trail of Google links which seemingly connect his style of earnest pleas for Veteran's support efforts with outright lies about his life in various, online communities.  I assert that he has - knowingly or unknowingly - decieved US Military Veteran groups, political campaigns, social assistance organizations and now, Daily Kos.  Notably, DKos appears but the latest in his string of hits at the time of this diary, but let's take a look at what led to his story being sent to our blue waters.

As noted in diary links above, we had a series of local diaries by his reported current wife, "Janet G", which soon ended in her dramatic passing and Dale's subsequent, emotional expressions of gratitude for incoming sympathy by this community.

This online event led to mild questions and even outright accusations about Dale and/or Janet not being genuine or upfront - in one recent case (see second link, above), the questioner was troll-rated numerous times.  Sure, his attitude seemed inappropriate at times for the tone of diary provided, but he also had some keen points to offer.  The questioner was also, due to entirely unrelated circumstances, going through a personal emotional event.

I did some basic research and found a disturbing link, but decided to take the matter offline for discussion with the beaten-down questioner, QuickSilver - his opinion seemed most worthy to consider on next actions in this context.  In parallel, the same information was beinf referenced and parsed in Torta's diary by many others at DKos.  After some discussion with QS and Shockwave, I did further research, noted the second diary's outing of the same link(s) about Dale Peters and his online past, then we agreed that I'd publish what is currently known.  That's this diary.

I should make clear: I now believe that, aside from issues of tone he displayed at the time, QuickSilver was essentially correct in expressing his suspicions.  He had excellent sense with regards to sincerity surrounding the entire situation.

Yet, this story is not actually about Dale Peters, Janet G or other people, at its core.

It's about an event that caused community disruption at Daily Kos and from whence it came.  We should understand what happened and why, from whom and where, so that we can determine ways to prevent or minimize such divisive issues in the future.

Let's see what's out there.

Dale Peters and his job

Dale Peters has often claimed membership in "Veterans for Progress, IL" as their "head" and "Republican Representative":

. . .

Dale Peters, Republican Representative to Veterans for Progress (A truly non-partisan Veterans organization that needs not hide behind no Congressional charter to show who we really support America's VETERANS!)

I am the Head of Veterans For Progress IL . . .

The Republican Head of Veterans For Progress IL . . .

. . .

That organization's site has been out of commission since May, 2006:

http://www.vfp-il.org/

But, the Wayback Machine provides some context:

http://web.archive.org/...

The primary contact, Thomas D. Brophy, is consistent with their Internet domain record registrant information.

Was Dale a member?

Apparently, Thomas claimed in 2005 that Dale was formally dropped by VFP membership in a postal-mailed letter, but it was noted by another person that Dale had never registered with the national org:

1. There was never any letter sent to Dale.   Dale is not even listed anywhere (or wasn't) except on this website.  If you have his address, then you know more than the rest of us.  

2. Dale received no phone call from Julie or myself telling him he could not be a member.  

3. Dale has not filled out a membership form or sent in any dues.

. . .

This theme will recur often in Dale's travels: he seems to setup a strawman personal or professional position in public posts or private emails, then later claims that an external hardship has taken away what he never had, or had in a different context than he offered.

He appears to be trolling for attention and building a false stature, in some ways.

Further, Dale and Thomas were actually intending to represent VFP IL at real-world events:

(from the linked Powerpoint presentation)

The Veterans March 2006

Chicago Veteran’s Shadow Rally

Chicago will be having a Veteran's  Rally on the same day and time as the Veterans March in Washington, DC.
Website: www.vetmarch2006.com

The Chicago Rally will be at the Daley  Plaza on April 25th at 8:00 am. Details on Speakers and Agenda are not finalized.

Information on Rally will be posted on Veterans For Progress Website
Chicago Rally:  http://www.vfp-il.org
           
             Illinois VFP Coordinators:
Tom Brophy     [e-mail]  123 456-7890
Dirk Enger       [e-mail]  123 456-7890
Dale Peters       [e-mail]  123 456-7890
Jack Picciolo    [e-mail] 123 456-7890

I am not sure if they went ahead and did so.  Much of Dale's online past indicates good intentions towards Veterans support issue, but little evidence of actual efforts in the real world - let alone, results.  (EDIT: In the course of active commenting below, I was (offline) given hearty thanks to Dale by those knowledgeable about the creation of VFP - IL, as he was a significant force in its original formation . . . and subsequent website sunset)

Dale Peters and his politics

Dale has an account at the national VFP org website, noting his address as "Darien":

Username: monkeyman
. . .
Location: DARIEN
. . .
MSN Messenger: [e-mail]
. . .

He  has been posting all over Illinois-related news and political sites for at least the past year and a half:

. . .

Veterans for AmericaDale PETERS. Friday, 6 October 2006.
www.veteransforamerica.org

The Swamp - Chicago Tribune - Blogs.Posted by: Dale Peters | Jul 28, 2006 10:54:49 AM
newsblogs.chicagotribune.com

This Veteran's Day | John Laesch :: Democrat for U.S. Congress - 3:08amThis Veteran's Day. Submitted by john on Fri, 11/11/2005 - 1:00am.
www.john06.com

sweet: 9-11: Five years later. Bush Monday night speech.Grow up you need help get it soon. Posted by: Dale Peters | September 13, 2006 11:23 AM.
blogs.suntimes.com

Daily Kos: Military Families support Lt Watada at Tacoma press ...Joe Colgan, WA veteran and father of Lt Benjamin Colgan, killed in Iraq in 2003. ... Dale Peters. by dale peters
www.dailykos.com
. . .

He seems to support Democratic candidates + veteran's issues in his postings - even our own llbear noted Dale's role at the John Laesch site:

. . . Dale Peters is an exceptionally committed volunteer leader . . .

Yet, per a prior link to Google results, Dale often notes himself as being a "Republican Representative" to VFP IL.  Then, of course, he came to DKos and posted in our vein numerous times.

So, he has claims to the Republican party, posts at news sites by speaking about his association to a Veteran's organization which takes a nonpartisan view, then talks up Democratic allegiance for Veteran's affairs and related politics at DKos.

He's lying about something(s) in his political makeup, obviously.  In fact, I'd say this looks like contextual altering of his beliefs to each audience.  It's part of his shtick.

Again, he appears to be trolling for attention and building a false stature, in some ways.

Dale Peters and his family

Some info is far too personally identifiable for my comfort in a public forum, but let's just say that the friendly and helpful folks responsible for this expose of Dale Peter's exploits at Military/Veteran online sites felt that their research indicated:

• Dale may live with his Mom and possibly a son/brother.
• There is no clear piece of evidence yet uncovered that Dale was married at the time of prior diaries concerning his private life.

And further, note that Dale provided a phone number in a link I provided above.  Guess who is associated with that number in phone and similar records - this is only from a cursory search:

BENINE M PETERS
BERNICE A PETERS
BERNICE D PETERS
BERNICE E PETERS
BERNICE I PETERS
BERNICE J PETERS
BERNICE M PETERS
BERNICE JOAN PETERS
DALE P PIERCEFIELD
JAMES PETERS
ROBERT D PETERS

I also found a record for Dale's address at intelius.org which listed the following public information (i.e., you don't need to pay for this information - it's just the top-level hit in their search engine):

DALE PETERS (Age: xy) / ADDRESS IN DARIEN, IL / BERNICE PETERS

Maybe you see a pattern in the naming, related to actual names.  It's a similar theme to be explored in what appear to be his set of online aliases.  My feeling is that Bernice is Dale's mother, if we simply want to understand the relationship between these records.  I got multiple hits for addresses, but one kept shining through in regularity for both of their names.  I will not publish that address or other private data - that is not the point of this diary.  This may all support the research by Nelly, Paratroopers and others at the Military/Veterans sites which indicated that Dale lived with or near his Mom and son, rather than with a wife named Janet and having various kids in the military.

Dale Peters and his identities

Remember Dale's online friend "Mike", who also took turns using the "Janet G" ID at DKos recently?  I think that he doesn't exist:

Chicago
Birthday: April 10, 2048
Hometown: Chicago
Website: http://www.vfp-il.org
Occupation: Forman

My Quote:
I love the smell of Peace in the Morning

About Me:
Staff Sgt 68-69-70-71 Vietnam 25th

Oh, another military veteran of Vietnam.

Notice how Mike's profile URL points to the Veteran's org which Dale Peters previously claimed to represent as a Republican.  Yet, Mike is not listed in any of the links I've provided for either the VFP IL site or for volunteer efforts that VFP IL claimed to support.

Hmm.

Perhaps Mike is just a friend and informal supporter of Dale's efforts with VFP IL?

Well, there are no hits for "Mike Jluszek" in IL on any of the people search engines I used (this includes pay service sites).

Notably, the style of typos, careless editing, gung-ho/emotional phrasing and intimate knowledge of Dale's issues in Mike's posts seem to match Dale's online style.  My guess is that they're the same person behind both aliases.

Further on identity, there was a blog which was supposedly established by Janet G, called "Janet's Conner."  Yes, truer titles were never written.

Oddly, there were two comments to the first blog posting . . . by the author, herself:

Janet;s Conner said...

I have had a chance to read her post on a veterans site.Man come back she hit hard and tells it like it is.

3:33 PM
Janet;s Conner said...

This lady knows her stuff.She has for years MG

10:03 PM

Remember how we were told that Janet G had such a rich, storied past supporting Veterans?  Maybe there has been such a Janet, in reality.  We cannot yet say for sure.

If there truly is no Janet G, then it would seem likely Dale was fabricating a past for a fictitious persona (and wife) of his own design.  This is only a small example of such propaganda - much can easily be seen at the linked blog or DKos.

And, your eyes are not deceiving: the ID for "Janet's Conner" is "Janet;s Conner" - another potential example of Dale Peters's frequent typos.

For me, Dale's identity oddities and seeming illusions of grandeur culminated in the below post, made during an exchange at the Chicago Sun Times blog between Dale Peters and . . . Peter Dale (no, really):

. . .

Sir using my name can get you in deep trouble.No while Dennis was not sevring a day .I was in Vietnam watching my brothers die.As to making the team I was a four letter man.Unlike you and Dennis Hastert my life is not a failure.I am The Republican Head of Veterans For Progress which I run 35,000 veterans an 3500 military families.I hope your life goes better but don't ever use my name again.Use yours or are you a coward like Hastert who ran from his duty 5 times (Dale Peters)

My name is Peter Dale , I would never want to use your name or anything remotely associated with you. I hardly believe 35,000 people would listen to you, and don't ever call me a coward you weirdo. Vetrans for Progress , I have never heard of that. But you sound like a pretty important guy, Mr. Peter. You are a strange individual. You sound like your group is imaginanary. And as far as 35,000 people listening to you, HA. Tell me how I can verify this group. (peter dale)

. . .

Even the blog news poster was wondering what the heckle was happening:

Lynn Sweet question
peter dale
and dale peters.....different people?

Finally, it should be noted that Janet G's blog and DKos diary posts often show evidence of the same style and typos seen in Mike's and Dale's online posts at various venues linked above.  Her online posting also began in the same timeframe as seeing Dale's prevalent postings in other blogs.  Mere coincidence, given the other factors already brought out?

Again, he appears to be trolling for attention (in any guise) and building a false stature, in some ways.

Dale Peters and Daily Kos

If we can confirm that Janet Peters is being laid to rest Friday, 01/19/2007, per the recent diary that kicked off this maelstrom, I'm really wondering if Dale has been impersonating a real-life Janet Peters online.  It's a weird situation - we could use more info from the Coroner and Funeral Home, I feel.

There's more, of course - this is just a start.  My primary points for now:

• Dale Peters, aka "monkeyman" seems to be lying about some aspects of his family and/or military history, according to various sources.
• Dale Peters has been an emotional supporter of Veteran's rights online for at least a year and a half.
• Dale Peters may have worked as a volunteer for John Laesch, as noted by llbear.
• Mike and Janet may have been impersonated by Dale Peters online.  Mike does not seem to exist.  Janet G may exist, may be deceased - more info needed. I feel she is mostly fictional at DKos, possibly based on a real person.
• Dale Peters has fooled, and been caught by, a number of online Veterans/Military folks at similar-themed blogs for claiming both a military record and family he does not appear to have, according to their pages.
• Dale Peters reportedly made untoward advances to at one least female member at such site(s), despite his "soul-bond" to Janet, also according to above pages at Soldier's Angels.
• Dale Peters has been posting at DKos in the past year under "dale peters" and likely "Janet G", at times clearly noting his "monkeyman" alias from elsewhere on the Internet, and recently we saw Janet G's alias being used for posts by (claimed) both Mike and Dale, but using the same voice.
• I have not yet seen a voice for Janet G which is markedly unique from Dale's or Mike's, but that's not conclusive.

It turns out that Dale's recent past appears a patchwork of online efforts, possibly some real-world political volunteerism . . . and some seeming lies about his family life and military background while here and elsewhere on the Internet, according to referenced sources.

I have no reason to think this is part of a more broad attack on community trust issues at DKos - at least, not yet.  Like Buffy, this feels like a person looking for attention and wanting to be larger than life in some ways - someone who has a life, but maybe not as much as they would prefer.

Semi-concluding Thoughts

Motivations?  Well, I can offer one example for context of my own thinking on this matter:

At another site where I was once a regular, a person impersonated a College football player - who was eventually picked up in a top draft round - to the point of even initiating a business deal with one of our members.  This person consistently kept up the shtick for over two years.  There was no reason for it except that they did it because they wanted to pretend.  The impersonater had no idea his chosen College player would become a top Pro pick, either.  Pure luck, that.  It was the business deal that finally broke the persona - but, even then, it went all the way until there was nothing more that the ruse could drain from honest people on the other side.  It was stupid and insulting, among other things.  But, I think it was somebody who liked feeling that they were a star, garnering attention and . . . who knows what benefits they imagined might come of injecting themself into the world as someone who seemed "better" than them in some fashion?

I don't know Dale's motivations or real life actions, if any of this is true.  As alluded to above, he seems to have his heart in the right place for many issues we can get behind at DKos.  His personality seems to have caused a problem, and not a small one.  If this was a simple misunderstanding, I'd imagine it would all be over by now.  That, and we have this odd backhistory here and elsewhere to consider in our own context.

There are very interesting meta issues of trust in a community - online or offline - that are established, verified (formally, secondarily, through trusted parties, etc.) and maintained.  I won't clutter this diary entry up with all that, because it's a topic unto itself.  I eat up such topics, so maybe that's been part of my motivation in this diary - I sincerely care about community matters and fair play.  Which means that I can be called out as easily as anyone.

I will suggest that there is something we can do right now: don't become paranoid.

One issue with any deceptive event that hits upon softer feelings in a general population is the recoil: suspicion suddenly becomes a possibility in many more situations than previously considered.  Proper skepticism remains a hallmark virtue of this site, and this type of happening could help us consider that we offer great amounts of trust to those who demonstrate that they deserve it - by being honest and sincere, friendly or at least earnestly communicative.  When claims are made, it's not unfaithful to check them - we review references and facts to understand another person's perspective ALL OF THE TIME.  It's one way to stay on the path of being a reality-based community, I feel.  And, if some odd odor wafts your way in the casual fact-checking, don't be afraid to ask what that actually means.  It's not disrespectful - actually, it's most respectful to show that you are listening and trying to understand.

I offer that items shown above include speculation from available pieces of evidence on Dale, etc.  If you disagree with any of my assertions, well, thanks for checking up and questioning the meaning of my "facts"!

*FIRST UPDATE*
I've received two emails from an email address previously associated with "Mike Jluseck" threatening a lawsuit and throwing indecipherable claims my way.

Of course, all information in this diary - as in other DKos diaries on the subject - is merely speculation and evidence from public links - including the prior, highly thorough debunking effort of Dale's military background claims.

Oddly, I ran across similar "threats" in a prior search.  It was from Dale at a different blog site Admin.

If Dale/Mike wants to come here and provide some helpful facts - well, please do.

Although . . . how does "Mike" know about this?  Just anonymous trolling?  Intrigue!

*SECOND UPDATE*

Another simple search reveals that Dale is the owner of "Mike's" email address:

Name: Dale P Peters
E-Mail: {"Mike"'s email address from prior references and the two messages I received in response to the diary - click the above link to see}
. . .

So, I guess we should be waving "Hi" to Dale.  Or, Mike.  Or, . . . well, whoever sent this:

Subject: You where told to check your facts

From: MIKE JLUSECK <[e-mail]>

Now that you kept this post up. We are asking Kos to release you name and address to file suit on you.

Don't release my f'in name and address, Kos! :)

I and everybody contributing, it seems, might get sued for . . . Googling.

*THIRD UPDATE*

I have been informed by another DKos member offline that there is a "Janet" whose body was released to Dale's family this week.  No indication of relationship to Dale, and the secondary source which confirmed knowledge of Janet and Dale has not been identified.  I do not have multiple sources on this news.

Indeed, we have not been able to find a single person who knew them both face-to-face, at least within the scope of Janet G's presence at DKos up through now.  So, this could be highly revealing news related to a subset of the overall event.

How this jibes with all of the other reports we received from multiple, agreeing parties will be interesting - such news does not invalidate most of the perceived online alias abuse, nor eliminate the seemingly improbable personal claims which we have attempted to grapple with in the references offered here.

Further, in this preliminary report, there was NO indication that the Coroner delayed processes, whatsoever.  So, as offered in references within the main diary, we still don't know how Janet was related to Dale or his family.

Could the story of Janet's passing be a simple case of embellishment, as for other personal claims addressed in the Comments, with the odd twist of multiple, online sockpuppets?  That's pure speculation and may be entirely off the mark - more information desired.  Trusting users and their communications at DKos is still the primary issue with regards to understanding the context behind this overall "event", I feel.

And, through it all, with current reports that a woman named Janet has truly passed . . . please consider offering some kind and respectful thoughts in her memory.  This diary is not about her directly, but she deserves respect in moving on, I feel.

. . .

Much constructive and revealing conversation has taken place after 36 hours or so, and I wanted to offer some additional thoughts to both new and returning DKos peers as something of a wrap-up:

• The contributions in Comments have been tremendous, as clarity of some references and many speculations have been enhanced, I feel.  Others have been admittedly opened to more broad consideration, and probably beyond the scope of this diary.
• Dale's situation that led to his recent DKos experience has been reasonably exposed in our context (i.e., the "Last Day" event and followon diary) - I see no need to dig further into that personal realm beyond current scope of DKos-relevant considerations.  Sure, there's been context to consider off-site, but it has hopefully all been in line with understanding what transpired here to make so many people feel as if they were jumping through emotional hoops.
• Nobody should be "gunning" for Dale or anyone else, here or offsite.  Please consider that hounding anyone about this series of events off DKos would be poor netizenship or even worse.
• I feel that Dale deserves at least a half-glass-full of sympathy, because we don't know yet why the disturbances surrounding his presence had to occur.  We don't know if his personal claims at DKos that have been either solidly or speculatively challenged were something that he could have helped from offering as they were.  None of us can claim to know his state of mind then or now, only see the results and try to understand as best possible.
• Dale was almost always described as having an overwhelming sense of support and inner energy for helping Veterans by those who knew him and contacted me offline due to this diary.  I expressed the same observations within the diary, itself.  He's been inspirational to many people in that sphere of work, both in Illinois and nationally.
• However, we have collectively determined that there were also highly negative and inward-facing trust issues that came about from Dale's presence at DKos.  Again, we don't know all the causes, but they certainly occurred and many were discussed in this and Torta's diary- this diary will surely not be the final word on the events, especially since it was reported below that llbear will be posting by this Sunday (presumably on these topics).  I hope this diary discussion has at least helped in further answering some of the "what?", "why?" and "who?" questions that it was created to be a vehicle for collectively addressing.
• I recommend we remain scrupulous of personal claims at the site in an open an friendly manner.  Just as we nicely demand - and, expect to be asked - for links and context that can support our references to events, quotes and assertions, we should feel it natural in an online environment to ask/respond on personal claims, as well.  Location, experience, expertise, profession, health, etc.  - all fair game, I feel.
• We should try to move past this particular series of events with some increased wisdom, as well.  With evolving food for thought on the meta issues of establishing and maintaining trust in a place like DKos, many diaries and sub-themes can be explored in such a topic realm of asynchronous cultural environments.
• Yes, open questions and speculative items are not all closed.  The clear evidence of multiple aliases, some debunked personal background claims, bizarre Coroner politics, possible personal embellishments of the Last Day, etc. are still negative trust issues at DKos.  They are what eventually sparked people to speak up in both llbear's and Torta's diaries, IMHO.  I realize folks may keep coming back here for discussion.  But, maybe another diary would be more appropriate to concentrate on followups, as I feel that this one has met its general purpose.  Of course, it's owned by the community, and not up to me.

These are all suggestions, of course - I can't (and don't desire to) command anybody here.  It's food for thought, and I thank everyone again for sharing in this provocative and practical experience.

*FOURTH UPDATE*

There is now an obituary in the Chicago Tribune for "Janet L. Peters-Gluszek" noting that she is survived by three children under the name "Gluszek" and Dale's son under the name "Peters".

This correlates with online records of her living around the area of Dale in various addresses, but there do not yet appear to be records of them living together.  It may be that they were separated and/or divorced, or perhaps they did live together - against accounts noted in the Comments threads, below.

I noticed that there is also a Michael Gluszek listed in Chicago - perhaps related to Janet?  Obviously, "Mike Jluseck" as an online alias falls directly in line with Dale's typo-laden style.  Again, all the noise from these sockpuppets and related trust issues appears to have obscured easy truths from being accepted and verified.

This is generally positive and welcome news: adding a small amount of clarity and verifiable truth from beneath the canopy of noise from multiple online aliases pointing to the same person, IP and voice, background claims that were unverifiable, conflicting references from Dale's and Janet's IDs as to her role as wife/ex-wife/daughter, claims of the Coroner holding up Janet's body due to political and personal vendetta, etc.

So, there are still many trust issues with Dale's (and, possibly Janet's) presence at DKos, unfortunately.  These may never be adequately resolved - but, I think that many lessons are already obvious from this larger event.  As I suggested above, we should be able to ask for verification of even personal claims and expect reasonable answers.  

It's too bad that did not occur in this case - we could have solely concentrated on the issues of alias sockpuppetry, background debunking, Coroner claims and so on - there was no need for Janet's existence to be questionable.  It's possible that all the noise around Dale's online presence here, and the conflicting references to a real-world "wife" (however ex or not) made a truthful item seem as flimsy as many other issues this community previously found surrounding Dale's presence.

However, it is somberly positive that we can knowingly spend a moment to consider Janet's passing, before getting back to the other DKos-related community concerns.  May she rest in Peace.

*FINAL UPDATE*

I have been asked to delete this diary by a handful of people.  These were not hard requests, but possibly out of emotional fatigue from riding waves of up and down emotions for some days - ever since news of Janet's passing, essentially.

But, these events were not about her, nor about Veteran's issues.

They were about faith and trust in fellow DKos members, reaching out with sincere empathy for well-wishing and prayers in support of another member's ordeal.

Until the questions began and claims became unverifiable for no apparent reason.

That was unfortunate, but it's happened before under different topics and within disparate online communities.  Soldier's Angels/USMILNET, Veterans for Progress - IL, VFMP - and now, even Democratic Underground has had some minor fighting on this.

But, what's "this"?

"This" appears to be a well-intentioned and energetic, Veteran-supporting individual.  A man against whom strong cases have been made, that he has manipulated various online aliases and persona by creating them from variations of people he has known in real, offline life.  For purposes which are only known to him, but which obviously provide some measure of attention and social interaction, one might offer.

This was Dale Peters - the same fellow related to the above-mentioned story of Janet's passing.  And, the same person whose aliases and seeming embellishments at DKos and elsewhere brought a growing fog of uncertainty to this community, as queries into the nature of Janet's circumstances of passing and the Coroner's practices turned into serious debates between Kossacks.

And, that was the start of unnecessary conflicts at DKos, similar to the type of starts at prior venues.  Mounting questions without suitable answers of integrity in the original stories, and protagonist, created layer upon layer of newly fresh cynicism.  It became difficult to determine if anything being relayed was actually real, at all.

And, this is where something as seriously real as Janet's death became so difficult to fully accept: so much doubt in the speaker's online character would unfortunately muddy the water for most of us who wondered what was real, what wasn't and what we should do about the whole matter.

I want this to be behind us, eventually - good lessons seem to be exuding from comments below.  It's my hope, at least, that we'll get better at handling such situations by experiences like this one

Attempts were made to summarize some prevalent comment themes in these last few diary updates, but the gold remains in our actual comment threads.  Please go and glance through - again, maybe.  There's great thinking, analysis and wondering about then, now and later from what has happened.  It's been an interesting experience.

I don't desire to delete all this fine work from the DKos community - it just feels potentially useful to tap back into as part of a larger narrative and lesson on user/site behavior.  We learned much about our problems from gleaning the very similar experiences shared by other sites and their organizational representatives, this time around - why shouldn't others also get the chance to pull in experience from us, as well?  We've contributed to meta thinking here and elsewhere in web-land, hopefully in a positive fashion.

I personally feel more enabled and justified to properly critique claimed credentials, or other personal traits that are specifically offered, in what should be seen as a fair manner at DKos.  We can't "see" each other's expressions online, but we can question meanings, intentions and claims openly and sincerely to make up for it.  Just as we question reporting and claimed facts in most cases of news and political debate.

Let's seal it up, then, if you don't mind.  Just stop posting here.  You see, there used to be a mechanism for disabling comments . . . but that seems to no longer exist.  Among other things, I'd hope we can avoid more runs like what happened with "Nadine G", below.  In that case, one can see exactly what we came here to learn about and figure how to avoid.

So much meta can be written on the proactive management of trust in our community, I feel.  I'd be one of the first to jump into that discussion.

And to Dale, his family and friends, we hope your private services go smoothly and well enough.  Good thoughts go out for Janet and her loved ones from this community, as comments here and elsewhere have easily expressed.

Thanks all.

•  Er, it's a bit too long

  among other things, I'm sure.

  Sorry.

  by wader on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:05:23 PM PDT

  •  Get a life

    That's just my opinion, of course.

    by Clem Yeobright on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:15:49 PM PDT

    •  yea

      sure would hate for the truth to come out. right? C'mon, once again this community got scammed and instead of sticking our heads in the sand we need to learn, again, about how important it is be cautious about this stuff because:

      1. money is finite - if I give $20 to a scam that's $20 less that someone who needs it will get.

      2. Scams like this make it harder for people who really need help to get it - with every one we will become more jaded.

      3. people who do question someone's sob story get hounded and troll rated into oblivion - and that's sucky because it keeps others from speaking up when they have concerns.

      This is an important discussion to have (again).

      by lil love on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:24:12 PM PDT

      •  I'm fine with outing Dale Peters, lil lover

        But doesn't this strike you as obsessive?

        The point has been made. I appreciated your call to the funeral home, although last I heard it was at best ambiguous.  But my life is not ruined that someone has undertaken a scam. Shit happens.

        Not trying to pick a fight: you done good!

        But let's 'move on'.

        by Clem Yeobright on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:30:38 PM PDT

        •  obsessive?

          maybe, if I missed some diaries on it. I saw one other one today. Or do you mean I am being obsessive? Again, maybe - I find it utterly fascinating that someone would do this and at how the community responds. My life is hardly ruined, hope I didn't give that impression. I just think that people need to be aware and this diary is a good summary of the situation.

          Also, if I am to be completely honest with you here, I also feel a bit vindicated. Not that I had the balls to voice my concerns, like QS did, because I didn't, but my radar went off immediately and I am glad that I have confirmation (I think) that my radar is still working. I think some who get upset about the truth of the matter are those who realized their radar messed up on them - I understand that completely.

          by lil love on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:38:13 PM PDT

          •  Okay. we disagree.

            I did say it was just my opinion.

            by Clem Yeobright on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:41:04 PM PDT

            •  Recommend +100 Clem is only one gets IT!

              Diarists are strongly encouraged to back up all assertions with facts (and preferably links to supporting materials) whenever possible. Use reputable sources whenever possible. If you can't find a reputable source that supports your position, then perhaps reconsider writing your diary.

              As a corollary, diarists should always make it clear when they are expressing an opinion - please do not assert opinions as facts, as this tends to be needlessly inflammatory.

              Clem hit the nail on the head, and this is what I see as unethical, indecent, and WRONG with this entire line of ATTACK on any DKos member.

              If I may be so bold the moderators and administrators should at the minimum have called a time out or called into question the sources being used.

              Can anyone clearly prove to this DKos member that this thread not only DID NOT stay in the realm of clear expression of opinon but was intentionally meant to be inflammatory to another member?

              QUESTION? What exactly was the REAL INTENT of posting this Diarie in the first place given that now I another member queston its proper etiquette and DKOS dairie guidelines? Can anyone explain that to me in such a way that will not be in violation of DKos guidelines?

              Frankly no one can BECAUSE most posts attacking Dale Peters and his recently deceased wife Janet ARE from biased, unreliable sources, posted by people with their OWN OPINIONS, and with the intent of badgering and inflaming Dale Peters to retaliate and flame back when he is most vulnerable.

              Now PLEASE tell us WHY?

              Why have you Swift Boat Veterans for Bush (oops Truth) or whom ever you are gone to such EXTREMES against just one member of DKos? Why?

              The weak reasons and excuses given thus far are only slogans and slaps on your own backs not JUSTIFICATION for trashing anybodies repution or invading their privacy regardless the motivation.

              If THOSE are the principles for which DKos stands for, heck WE might as well have the NEOCONs still running Congress.

              by indythinker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 07:04:41 AM PDT

              •  Yawn.

                And yet you provide zero evidence to back-up your claims while the diarist has provided pages of evidence to support their assertions.

                And might I remind you that "Dale" and "Janet G" brought this to DK, not the other way around.  This matter likely would have just faded away had it not been for the latest diary claiming that the coroner was holding the body for political reasons.

                So, it appears that Dale's pathological craving for attention is what did him in.....not us.

                And how do you jive all of the reports from the Veterans groups and military forums that claim that Dale Peters has committed a hoax on their sites as well?

                Did you read any of this diary at all?

                by Scout Finch on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 08:59:56 AM PDT

                •  Have a look at Dale's

                  posts at Google Groups from the last day or two (start here). He's whining about being swiftboated at dkos, and how hurt he is that Janet has been labelled a troll. He also claims we are hurting Janet, even though that would be impossible since she's dead. Pure hystrionics.

                  What kind of a person posts a diary on a blog from which he was banned, and at which his supposed spouse has been posting for all of a couple of weeks, telling us how she died in his arms, and then claims to be devastated that anyone would question the truth of it? A fool or a liar, that's who.

                  by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 10:20:03 AM PDT

                  •  And, sure enough,

                    there's "Mike", backing him up.

                    by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 09:26:15 PM PDT

                    •  And look who just

                      joined the conversation.

                      by Warren Terrer on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 09:36:08 PM PDT

                      •  One mystery

                        I'm still kind of (well, not just kind of) curious about is your discovery of the shared e-mail of both Hanafin and Peters, juxtaposed against the apparent verifications that both of them exist.  That, I think, is the singularly strangest remaining conundrum here.

                        by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 11:04:11 PM PDT

                        •  Just to be clear

                          I'm not pointing to The Major's presence in that conversation. We've already seen that he posts to google groups with Dale and 'Mike'.

                          I am suggesting that the person who just joined that conversation with the email addy '[e-mail]' is Nadine G. Compare that email addy with the one Nadine G put in her profile here. Not the same, but the pattern is telling, and the address there starts with 'na'.

                          And note the claims in that comment that s/he is one of the children of Janet. Who else just made such a claim? Nadine G.

                          Interestingly, Nadine G was happy to admit to us that Dale is a liar and that Mike is indeed his sockpuppet. But on google groups she is sucking up to Dale. Note the phrase 'Dale and her family have been through enough as it is.' Yes, it's OUR fault, not Dale's. And if Nadine is the daughter who claims that Dale never even married Janet, and took her away from the family for 10 years, why is it, once again, all about consoling Dale?  I say sockpuppet.

                          by Warren Terrer on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 05:50:25 AM PDT

                          •  Oh I know

                            note also the discrepancy between the focus in the sig line and the 10 year separation of Nadine from Janet, during which supposedly very little was known.  More tellingly, the claim that Nadine G stumbled upon this diary via Google search and signed up to refute claims that Janet was not real, juxtaposed elsewhere with claims by Nadine to have been signed up for a week (before this diary came out, and at which time the only diaries on the subject contained no input from Nadine).  Also, the bizarre obession with gaining info from anonymous Kossacks on matters about which they obviously know nothing.  Similar writing style.  

                            But it was the other thing that was bugging me, and that's why I posted that comment.  

                            by tipsymcstagger on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 11:49:48 AM PDT

                            •  BTW

                              I just noticed something painfully obvious about all those google group messages. All those messages are posted via email. If you click on the right links you can see all the headers of the emails, which contain the IP addresses of the posters. I checked dozens of messages posted by Dale Peters and Mike Jluszek over a month long period, and they were all posted from the same IP address.

                              Anyway, I promise now to stay out of this diary.

                              by Warren Terrer on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 11:56:03 AM PDT

              •  OMG - I KNOW Bobby Hanafin, he was there!

                Julie Tackett, Nat'l Secretary of VMFP the National group that is being discussed above (see my posts  below)

                According to our meeting spreadsheet, indythinker was at our first VMFP (then VFP) National meeting in Milwaukee, WI in September 2005.  We have met. In fact, he had dinner with us all, sitting with our now President Matt Cary.

                Seems this group of vets has found a new arena in which to "participate".  I should mention that indythinker did not join VMFP either.

                by Seattle4310 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 10:06:02 AM PDT

                •  Sounds like one of Dale's victims

                  Dale's fooled a lot of people: llbear, 'Richard Pierce', and this indythinker guy, just to name a few.

                  by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 10:21:07 AM PDT

                  •  Dale never fooled Ilbear n/t

                    by QuickSilver on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 11:42:16 AM PDT

                    •  Meaning what?

                      by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 11:45:17 AM PDT

                      •  Ilbear is a sockpuppet, too

                        Whose purpose was to shill for the veracity of Dale and Janet Peters. But he can't do that. So for that reason, I don't think his friend edwardssl real, either. I say that precisely because edwardssl came forward to claim he hugged Ilbear at a Laesch rally, as a way of trying of dramatizing to Kossacks, in the middle of that trollswarm, that Ilbear was real (which in turn supports the legitimacy of Janet G and Dale).

                        It was a sockpuppet embrace, and hardly the first one I've seen on Daily Kos.

                        You see how troll-hunting works? Thank you for this dairy, wader; I, too, have a thing for puzzles hidden in plain sight. I also know how time-consuming it is to do sleuthing about Janet and Dale Peters, because a single hoax often takes many, many hours to untangle.... In this case, I just recognized the gang's 'signature' and went for it.

                        And as a result, we got a nice, helpful display of troll spatter, in the recommends, troll-ratings, and comments. (And just so everyone knows, sockpuppets come along later to demand diaries be deleted. Sockpuppets often try to cover sockpuppet tracks. These days you might be able to delete a diary, but not the comments.)

                        More context here.

                        by QuickSilver on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:15:05 PM PDT

                        •  I agree.

                          And I think there is another, but I don't want to call this one out until I have more evidence.

                          by Scout Finch on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:19:46 PM PDT

                        •  Thanks for spelling it out

                          to me. I figured that's what you were saying, but I didn't want to leave it to inference at this point.

                          I'm not, however, convinced that llbear is anyone's sockpuppet. Maybe, but it's just conjecture. I think Dale Peters has devoted so much time to his online charade over a few years now, that he really has fooled a few people in the veteran advocacy community into believing what he says; to the point where they are willing to write diaries and comments in his defence.

                          by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:23:05 PM PDT

                          •  Llbear is around but isn't posting in this

                            thread.

                            Hmmmmmm.

                            by Geekesque on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:35:51 PM PDT

                            •  Not sure what that proves

                              But check this out. Monkeyman claims we are all part of a right-wing military group conspiracy against him called MILNET. What a nut.

                              by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:38:36 PM PDT

                        •  yeah, I think so too

                          Yes, QuickSilver. You were right that the other diary was a fraud. I had been blinded by my love of Vets.

                          I think that maybe the (apparently) real person named Bobby Hanafin has created all of these aliases or "personalities" or sockpuppets to support his cause. I'll leave it up to the troll hunters to discover just how many.

                          I'm saddended that people misrepresent themselves and their military experience.

                          by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:27:46 PM PDT

                          •  perhaps we should be asking why

                            anyone would want to undermine this community, in particular, given that we are in an open-ended war and all that.

                            There's more than one other sockpuppet, I'll second that.

                            by QuickSilver on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:34:15 PM PDT

                            •  a case of "Stolen Valor"

                              I wrote about "taking down DK" Vs "Stolen Valor" in my reply to you here. People have been pretending to be Veterans ever since there was War. Or, pretending to have seen combat when they were safe.

                              But yeah, it could be just the same old troll from the past, in an elaborate scheme to take down DK. In that case, I'm truly sorry to Mr. Hanafin / indythinker for the suggestion above. But it's all  too similar, with too many google connections leading back to the same people.

                              by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:53:18 PM PDT

                            •  Why this community?

                              Well, this isn't the only community that has been subjected to Dale Peters. A few veterans sites have had to expunge his negative influence. Vmfp.org was subjected to him 18 months ago. And don't forget, a 'Janet has died' diary was posted at DU under Monkeyman's account at the same time as The Last Diary appeared here.

                              As for motive, Dale Peters was banned by kos for plagiarism. That could be all the motive he needs to come back here stirring up shit. Then again, maybe he's just mentally ill.

                              by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:54:54 PM PDT

                            •  I am so sorry, QuickSilver

                              I troll rated you in the Janet G funeral diary.

                              Now I see I was gullible. Reeled in.

                              I still appreciate your questioning nature, perhaps more than before.

                              The thing is this: I have had a lot of the company of Death in the past couple of years and my mom is also  ill now, too (battling esophageal cancer). My dad and my brother and 3 cousins are vets and so to have someone make something up like this is beyond the pale for me to believe.  When I saw someone questioning a supposed vet helper/ supposed vet's heartbreak, it irritated me, to be honest. Mainly because I see the pain that these folks go thru, I've been to too many funerals, etc etc.

                              So, I thought you were rude by asking hard questions. You were not rude, you were just being skeptical, which is what I like to think of myself as being. However, when it come to emotions and Death, it is hard for me to be skeptical. And harder to think that someone would be lying like this and creating a ruse.

                              For people here in Seattle who know me (and in other places) like SeattleLiberal (my neighbor) they can vouch I am a real person. Or you can mail me at the address in my profile for a more thorough email/info.

                              Again, sorry I rated you and sorry I was gullible. I sometimes am glad to be open hearted and other times, well, not so much, when I get taken like this. My apologies. Please keep questioning, I have a lot to learn.

                              by LokiMom on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:19:12 AM PDT

                              •  it was a heartbreak for me

                                and will continue to be for some time, thank you. I'm glad your eyes were opened; the eyes of my eyes were opened. Trolls play to our best intentions to be helpful and sympathetic — as do, in many instances, con artists. (I know a little bit about the latter.)

                                The transparent inauthenticity of Dale's mourning, his invective against trolls, was galling to me. How far was the troll going to take it? This wasn't the first time a body has 'disappeared' from Kos, and there's a curious recidivistic pattern to it.... In fact, it's one of the few stunts they can pull, the disappearing act. We should be wary of its many variations.

                                by QuickSilver on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 06:03:20 PM PDT

                                •  I guess this is what confuses me

                                  About trolls. Why anyone would lie about stuff is a challenge to uderstand, sure, but the overarching maliciousness to manipulate people here is mean-spirited at best, evil at worst.

                                  I am glad we are a self-correcting group howver and that we are able to question one another, be/c like Bill Clinto said, the Left is all about evidence and argument, and the right is about attack, smoke, and mirrors.

                                  The thing that scares me honestly is what if this person is mentally ill? Seriously mentally ill? As it is, based on reading comments from the various incarnations/sockpuppets like Janet, Dale, Nadine, etc - the writing style kind of creeped me out and led me to think that perhaps this person is really sick and needs help of some sort.  I know I sound naive, but this is my first encounter with someone like this online activiely being malicious about something, and I have been on the Intertubes since BBS days in college...I have just never met anyone so creepy.

                                  I wonder what happened today at 9 a.m. at the funeral home.  It is a mystery that baffles me. The elaborate ruse is creepy.

                                  So yes, thanks for the education, I needed it.

                                  by LokiMom on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 09:15:19 PM PDT

                                  •  PTSD

                                    Folks, Read "Down Range-To Iraq and Back" by Chuck Dean and Dr. Bridget Cantrell. A short read that explains PTSD.

                                    Warrior behaviors, attitudes like black operations (f**k with the mind of the enemy types) and group bonding with in military units, etc. are important skills and attributes in soldiers at risk of death when at war.  When these traits are brought back home without treatment, it is frightening, confusing and even dangerous.  

                                    I am not saying it is the motivation here, I am not a clinical psychologist, just suggesting you read more about PTSD and some of these behaviors might make sense.

                                    by Seattle4310 on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 10:04:58 PM PDT

                                    •  and the history of trolling

                                      Wikipedia's Troll (Internet) is instructive, not least for its list of external links.

                                      by QuickSilver on Sat Jan 20, 2007 at 12:38:25 AM PDT

                          •  This occurred to me just now, too... hmmm

                            In my mind, I was pondering this and then WOW I saw you had already typed it!  Worth pursuing....

                            by Seattle4310 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:47:27 PM PDT

                            •  I'll probably regret it

                              The connection is curious, for sure. But I probably should not have typed it out loud.  I don't mean to harm Bobby Hanafin, or llbear, or any Veterans or their advocates.

                              Hopefully you will hear back from some of your inquiries about Dale and a possibly recently deceased wife, and we can clear this up.

                              Or muddle it up more...

                              by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:02:37 PM PDT

                            •  we were right

                              We had a good mutual hunch about Bobby Hanafin not being legit. Warren Terror did some more good sleuthing and found that a link for Dale Peter's profile at the VFA website led to a bio page on.... Robert Hanafin.

                              In case it gets lost, I already made a comment about earlier.

                              No regrets; but it's disheartening that it turned out to be true, that some people lie about or exaggerate their military service. My husband is a Vietnam Vet and he really dislikes posers.

                              by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 10:01:04 PM PDT

                          •  Which 'other diary'

                            are we talking about here?

                            by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:04:06 PM PDT

                            •  sorry, mis spoke a little

                              I meant to say QS was correct that Janet G and Dale Peters is a fraud, and was correct to question it on the "Funeral Diary." I noticed all the redflags about Dale and Janet when "the Last Diary" was posted, yet I was one of the ones who originally supported the Dale Peters story and felt QS should not hijack a memorial diary with sock puppet accusations. I have since change my mind.

                              Although I could change my mind again in the coming days, as more and more is revealed. I do feel bad if some of our users have been wrongly accused.

                              by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:20:35 PM PDT

                        •  Contact me

                          offline, if interested in discussing this sub-theme you've offered.  I knew your perspective, but have some potentially new information.

                          I also want to avoid accidentally generating flames in this diary that may not be needed.

                          I do respect your perception, here, BTW.

                          by wader on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:36:26 PM PDT

                        •  I can verify

                          both the existence of llbear and edwardssl.  

                          edwardssl (a she, not a he, by the way) did extensive volunteer work directly for me during the Laesch campaign, during which I met with her - and several members of her family who also volunteered - more than once.

                          llbear also volunteered for the campaign, and I saw him more than once, talked to him many times on the phone, etc., during the course of the campaign.

                          I have seen both at many campaign events, enough that I would be surprised had they not encountered one another during that campaign.

                          Dale, Janet and Mike contacted me, as the campaign's communications director, more than once by e-mail and online in many forums including this one, but I have met none of them in person, so can verify nothing there, except to say that their communications were and are so unlike either edwardssl or llbear, but were so concurrently relentless with my real-world acquaintance with these two, that I would find the idea of either being sockpuppets of Dale Peters/Janet G/Mike to be unbelievable.  I uprated your comments on the llbear diary, but feel - no am certain - that you are over-extending here.

                          And I assume you can verify I was employed by the Laesch campaign by checking John's fec disclosures.  Certainly many here knew I was, met me personally during the campaign, etc. Although it's no longer there, I disclosed my identity as a campaign staffer in my sig line at the time, and will do so again here.

                          Lisa Bennett
                          Media Coordinator
                          Laesch for Congress

                          by Downtowner on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:36:48 PM PDT

                          •  I will offer that current evidence

                            does not - nor has it ever - made me feel that llbear is a sockpuppet for Dale/Mike/Janet.  My basic research shows concurrence with your experience and observations.

                            QS may also be wondering about a larger grouping of implicit support for the Dale/Mike/Janet personae, in some fashion.  That's a discussion I wanted to take offline, if possible.

                            by wader on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 12:59:06 PM PDT

                            •  Got jabber?

                              by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:17:48 PM PDT

                              •  I could enable it,

                                yes.  I have Trillian, which has a Jabber plugin - though, I have yet to take advantage of that protocol.

                                by wader on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:42:27 PM PDT

                                •  you can try me

                                  at warrenterrer at jabber dot org

                                  by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 01:45:39 PM PDT

                                  •  I just logged on

                                    assuming I did it correctly (perhaps not - still checking).  Are you possibly offline at the time of this posting?

                                    I'll check back a bit later, FYI.

                                    by wader on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:15:15 PM PDT

                                    •  I'm on

                                      If you are willing to post your jabber ID here I'll try to reach you.

                                      by Warren Terrer on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:19:28 PM PDT

                          •  extrodinary claims

                            From llbear's diary about the funeral:

                            "...In Dale’s case, the loss of Janet has been compounded by red tape used like an emotional whip by the DuPage County Coroner Pete Seikmann.  On Aug, 24th, 2003, after initial reports PSTD showing up in of 1 in 4 US veterans returning Iraq, Siekmann published claiming the PTSD was bogus [can’t find a link to the article].  Janet and Dale went ballistic and worked successfully for Siekmann’s defeat in the next election.  When Janet died, Siekmann elected to hold her body for an indeterminate time.  The stress his actions have placed on Dale cannot be overstated.  An investigation is now in progress."

                            —  llbear

                            So far, llbear has been unwilling to tell us who is investigating the coroner.  

                            Also, I believe that we were told that a funeral notice would be published in the Chicago Sun Times.  I have been unable to find such a notice & the funeral is supposedly scheduled for tomorrow.

                            ````
                            peace
                            
                            

                            by peace voter on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:17:32 PM PDT

                            •  I know nothing

                              about this case specifically, I am just stating I know llbear and edwardssl, in person, from their work as volunteers on the Laesch campaign.  

                              That, and the fact that Dale Peters frequently contacted campaign staffers, and posted comments to campaign-related diaries and postings, here and elsewhere, but always on line, and, to the best of my recollection (although I met astounding amounts of people sometimes in crowds so that my recollection may be faulty) never in person.

                              So I can be 100% certain edwardssl and llbear are not each other or sock-puppets for each other.  Moreover, short of a smoking gun of incredible heat, I can not be brought to believe they are sock-puppets for Dale, or Janet, or Mike.

                              I can think of no context in which edwardssl would have had contact with Dale, and really, if you knew her like I have come to, you would find the very suggestion ludicrous in every way.  As far as I can tell, the only reason they were connected to each other by QuickSilver was edwardssl's assertion in a comment that she had met llbear at a Laesch campaign rally: I repeat, I am sure she did at some point as they both frequently attended campaign rallies and I believe I remember them both being present at least on election night.

                              Moreover, I was a witness to Dale's first approaches online to llbear when Dale invited llbear - who is a veteran - to join a vet board group - as he had also invited me to do.  I knew llbear in person and Dale online before they ever encountered each other on line.  Add to this the fact that I know where llbear lives, and where Dale says he lives, and that the two are about a 100 miles apart, llbear has a well-established local reputation and history in his hometown, etc, etc, etc - no, sorry, llbear is a real person and for the idea that he is a sockpuppet of Dale's to work, he would have to be the original perpetrator of the entire thing.  Same holds true of edwardssl.  Don't believe it in either case.  They are both regular, everyday, well-established members of their respective communities.

                              by Downtowner on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:50:11 PM PDT

                              •  thanks

                                I was not saying that llbear was a sock puppet because he made extraordinary claims - just wish he would respond to queries about possible factual errors in his diary.

                                ````
                                peace
                                
                                

                                by peace voter on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 03:00:23 PM PDT

                          •  just got off the phone with John Laesch

                            I was a campaign contributor, and met him at YearlyKos John vouched for your existence and role, Downtowner, and for the existence of Ilbear and edwardssl. Both of them are real people, real volunteers for the campaign.

                            So my sincere apologies to all three of you.

                            John also could speak for Dale Peters (or someone calling himself Dale Peters) existing, in that he would call the campaign several times a day, and that Dale Peters had done blogging for and about other candidates. But John has never met Peters himself. John also had heard of a scam involving Dale Peters claiming to have a son in Iraq, or other inconsistencies. I asked John he thought it possible Ilbear had never met Peters, and he said yes.

                            Again, my apologies for the offense. As I've said troll-hunting is precarious, and troll-hunters can be wrong. We have to peel back the onion (so to speak) until we know people who themselves know people. And even then, we should tread lightly.

                            by QuickSilver on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:30:48 PM PDT

                            •  no offense taken

                              just wanted to clarify I had met both llbear and edwardssl.

                              by Downtowner on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:51:34 PM PDT

                            •  QuickSilver - thanks for making that call

                              Sometimes it is really difficult to figure out who is real.  Many of us are well aware of the fact there are big bad forces out there that are threatened by the increasing influence of the progressive blogging arena and who actively work to marginalize those of us who toil in the tubes.

                              That's why fact checking is so very important.  I wish more people would insist on links, and keep a mountain of salt handy at all times.

                              ````
                              peace
                              
                              

                              by peace voter on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:57:04 PM PDT

                        •  Ilbear not a sockpuppet

                          nor edwardssl, according to John Laesch himself.

                          Again, my apologies.

                          by QuickSilver on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 02:45:37 PM PDT

                          •  I was thinking of indythinker,

                            not Ilbear, when I made the above comment on sockpuppets. My apologies to Ilbear, although I hope he will answer some questions if he attends a funeral for Janet G.  Also, where did Ilbear get the info about Janet's life and work with Veterans that was written on the Janet G Funeral Diary? Was that provided by Dale? or the Major?

                            As is indicated by new information closer to the end of the thread, it's looking like "Major" Robert Hanafin (indythinker) may also be a fake Veteran, or a Vet who is exaggerating his service record.  The Major seems to be in colusion with "Dale Peters" and their many ailses and sockpuppets between them. Or maybe they are the same person, another sockpuppet. They post back and forth on various boards posing as Vietnam Vets, and give each other credibility.  They do attend protests and work for Veteran's issues, but they are fabricating or elaborating their military service records. Neither one's military sevice history is all that believable, especially the "Major's" fast rise in rank as he supposedly changed from Army to Air Force.

                            If indythinker truly cared about Veterans, he would not be perpetuating lies about somebody posing as a Vet. But posers lie together and defend one another to give credibility to their claims and facilitate the con.

                            I don't think it's about undermining daily kos. I think it's about people pretending to be Vietnam Vets, or Vets who embellish their records and enable other liars by giving them credibility. Political blogs, message boards, military forums are perfect avenues to plant the seeds of identity deception because we can't see faces, but take what's written at face value. We'd sometimes rather believe in a good story rather than follow up on factual claims, or check out obvious discrepencies.

                            by CalNM on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 07:26:39 PM PDT

                        •  A bit of enlightenment...

                          ...although I'm sure to regret getting involed. :o)

                          But then again, Quicksilver, you already dragged my name into it, didn't you?

                          From what I saw in that diary and others since I first got wind of the Janet G/Dale Peters saga early yesterday morning, you apparently have just lost a close friend in a traumatic way. I'm sorry about that and I condole with you. So, I have complete empathy for and understanding that much of your comments these past few days come from that place.

                          I also understand why my name came into it, since I did vouch for Janet G in the Last Diary (or whatever it was called, I can't remember). At the time, I only had to go by what I was told myself of Janet G by others I believed were credible, since I'd not met her or Dale myself personally.

                          And Dale? Heck, I'd just days earlier came across an LTE that he'd written, and which was published in the local newspaper...so his veterans' activist creds were good with me and I was happy to call him my friend. In fact, Janet G had left a comment in my diary the morning of her death, telling me that Dale says thanks for the mention of his LTE. So, when I heard that she had died later that day, I was pretty floored.

                          So, all of this information has me quite sad.

                          But I'm not a subscriber to blind faith, and I know that truth is the key and will always be the right way to go about things. But truth, as we all know, can be a funny thing. Something that appears to be set in stone one moment (like the earth being flat back in the olden times) can quickly change into another reality.

                          I think we all work here with the guiding principle that the truth can hurt sometimes, but it's the best track to take. So, I don't have a problem with truth trickling or seeping or flooding out. That's not to say that I sanction some of the back and forths and character assassination that's taken place during this 'investigation'.

                          But anyway, I have one bit of enlightenment that I can share with you:

                          llbear is a real person. We met last year in IL State Representative Linda Chapa LaVia's office. She was the Vice-Chairperson on the Veterans Affairs committee at the time, and llbear arranged the meeting with her at the request of the Mayor of Dixon. He invited me to join him because I had become known (not by you apparently) for my work on the issue of combat PTSD. My first diary on the matter appeared in September 2005, and I've easily written 60 or 70 of them on the issue since. I have worked with ePluribus Media to create the PTSD Timeline, and have spoken on panels on citizen journalism, appeared on Air America and Progressive Radio Network last month to speak on the issue of combat PTSD, etc. etc. etc.

                          I'm not a sock puppet -- and by the way neither is jimstaro.

                          As anyone can see from the title of my upcoming book, Moving a Nation to Care: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and America's Returning Troops, my whole thing is trying to get people involved in helping others, and so I extend myself as much as possible to others who are working on this cause. Dale Peters was a fighter on the issue that I've been working on, and it saddens me to loose even one hand on deck. (Btw, I wish you guys would expend even half of your energy and time in helping me and others working to make the world a better place rather than troll-hunting; but it's a free country and I can't force people to care about issues they don't care about.)

                          One final friendly bit of advice (and it is meant to be friendly but hopefully can be seriously considered and implemented in future troll-hunting pursuits):

                          Before dragging others into these witchhunts it might be better etiquette to do a simple search of their name and look at their history. That could have easily been done with my name, and jimstaro's.

                          My history is a bit more established here and elsewhere than yours, btw, and I'm not one to want to enter pissing contests over this stuff. I'm not a Jerome or nyceve or clammyc, so I understand why you might not have known who I was. But I mention it because I did happened to catch your throwing more popular bloggers' names around that you had recently met at a meet-up, as if that is supposed to give you some form of higher credibility or respect. It shouldn't. And it doesn't.

                          We all know people and rub elbows with the stars...even little old people like me who you didn't have a clue about has managed to stand among some of the giants. See what good it did me?

                          
                          That's Maryscott O'Connor, LeftyLimblog, Gina, me, and Hunter.

                          I'm already behind many of my deadlines, and don't have enough time to re-tell everything or defend my honor further :o). But I wanted to chime in, since some had been asking. You can link to this comment for anyone who's wondering about what I have to say about the matter, if any of this helps to clarify.

                          Please remember that even a highter calling of seeking truth can quickly turn into hurtfulness and ugliness if not done with care.

                          In peace...

                          by ilona on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 06:49:01 PM PDT

                          •  Thanks - and if you are in touch with llbear

                            please ask him to post an update after the funeral (if he goes).  He just now deleted his diary on this subject, unfortunately.  I can understand why he did, but... I feel it would have been better -- more helpful going forward -- to let everything remain on the historical record.  

                            Thanks for all the good work you and other real people are doing with, and on behalf of, US veterans.  

                            by Torta on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 07:09:48 PM PDT

                            •  I'm assuming he will post on it...

                              ...but I'll email him and ask him if he can do it.

                              This whole thing has been quite painful for those of us who have been working hard on vet's issues; I know llbear must be feeling as I do, too, and maybe that's why he deleted the diary. I can understand that. I also wrote a quick diary early yesterday morning that I later deleted; I didn't have what I wanted to say well-formulated yet and didn't have all of the facts so I took it down.

                              It took me another full day of looking at everything to get around to jumping in and putting some of my feelings into 0's and 1's.

                              Thanks, Torta.

                              by ilona on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 07:28:56 PM PDT

                          •  Thanks for posting

                            This was always meant to talk about the disruption in community feel from a strange series of collective events, all surrounding issues about Dale's participation here.

                            There should be no negative take on Veteran's issues in this diary.  I've been attempting to discourage a branching out of accusations to various parties in a conspiratorial manner within the comments threads, as well.

                            I'm sorry that you and llbear were unfairly called out, and appreciate your taking the time to post a solid correction.

                            That said, issues of trust and communications among users remains a big issue even after all this discussion since llbear's and Torta's diaries (mine being more a narrative summary, for a purpose) - yo might have noticed that a "Nadine G" was posting rather frantically below.  It's just the kind of situation this discussion wanted to understand and figure out how to avoid or minimize in the future.

                            <