Daily Kos

Wishful Thinking: Obama/Edwards 2008

Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:34:22 PM PDT

2008 buzz is inevitable, but what I've found is the worst part is that it leads to speculation by people who wishfully ignore political reality.

These are the people who supported John Kerry from the very beginning. Yes, the rest of the Democratic voters reluctantly got behind him after it was clear he was going to win the nomination, but let's recap. John Kerry, a Massachusetts liberal with absolutely no charisma or ability to relate to the trials of the majority of the people in America. This is not a smeared perception of him because of the MSM; this is what the man is really like. And some Democrats thought that once the American people "understood" what he was "all about," he could start picking the drapes out for the Oval Office.

Two years later, this problem of wishful thinking has not gone away.

Of course, there's no reason that all candidates who aren't Hillary and Obama shouldn't be considered on this blog. However, some of the speculators need to wake up to the reality that is American politics -- in the mainstream, not in the insular progressive world. It is up to the liberals that make up the majority of primary voters not to choose a candidate that panders to their beliefs, but to pick someone who is either a moderate or capable of convincing voters that progressive values are American values. Someone who doesn't just look good on paper, but is electable in the general election. In short, not to repeat the mistakes of 2004.

There are some longshot candidates who will probably gain a lot of national attention in the next two years. I commend people who realize that enough could happen between now and primary season that either Vilsack or Clark could win; on the flip side, there's a difference between farsightedness and thinking that Dennis Kucinich or Joe Biden actually has a chance. I'll reserve judgment on Kucinich; I think he's running to draw attention to progressive causes more than an actual presidential candidacy. As for Joe Biden, which both Kossacks and HuffPosters are treating like a viable candidate...that is not wishful thinking; that is plain ignorance of political reality. The majority of the American people have not heard of him; while this is also true of Clark and Vilsack, neither of them has been a Senator for over thirty years, or a two-time presidential candidate. Joe Biden is from Scranton, Pennsylvania, and he tends to remind me of another Scrantoner: The Office's Michael Scott, who has an inflated sense of his own influence and importance. (This is also true of John Kerry, whose reputed consideration of another run shows that he fails to realize that very few people were voting for Kerry -- they were voting for "not Bush.")

Since John Edwards has announced his candidacy, many people have begun putting him in the same category as Clinton and Obama. While not as outright ridiculous as a Biden candidacy, it's just not true that Edwards as isn't a front-runner -- which is why he announced so early. Clinton and Obama's name-recognition stems from their own achievements; for most of the American people, Edwards is that cute also-ran from 2004. Clinton and Obama are holding off on announcing because they want to wait for the media buzz to die down somewhat; announcing their candidacy will build it right back up again.

The very first thing that strikes me about Edwards is that he has many of the same qualities of Obama. I wouldn't go so far as to call John Edwards "the candidate for people that think that the country isn't ready for a black President, especially not one named Barack Hussein Obama," but...I guess I just did. Many of the criticisms levelled at Obama should be hurled with equal force at John Edwards. Edwards' relevant experience includes just one term as a United States senator; just two years fewer than what Obama will have by 2008. While Obama has been criticized for having won after his challenger dropped out before what would have been a tough race, Edwards won his own race by just four percentage points -- around 83,000 votes in a state of almost 9 million. During his term, Edwards did not introduce any significant legislation; furthermore, he also supported and voted for the Iraq War resolution and the Patriot Act. I would argue that Edwards's time spent fighting against poverty is no more or less relevant than Obama's work in the Illinois Senate or as a community organizer.

Before Edwards supporters start harshly attacking me or accusing me of working for someone else (well, actually, I am working for Students for Barack Obama, so you can accuse me of that), I would ask them to read this first: Though these are all criticisms of John Edwards, I am not arguing that any of them cannot be overcome, because most of them probably will be. There is no prescribed formula for what makes a viable Presidential candidate, and I think the most important characteristic of any politician is an ability to inspire voters from all walks of life and to make them feel heard and understood. Obama and Edwards have both proven they can do this; it is hard to argue that any other Presidential candidate comes close in terms of personality or speaking ability. Obama and Edwards both voice populist themes, albeit in slightly different ways: Edwards has repeatedly spoken of "two Americas," while Obama has called for unity despite social and economic differences. Many perceptive Kossacks have noticed the similarities and called for an Obama/Edwards ticket, claiming it would be "unbeatable."

I believe the correct word is actually "unwinnable."

I'm a strong Obama supporter, though if Edwards managed to win the nomination I would be satisfied too. I think they both have strong qualities that none of the other candidates bring to the table (assuming Gore doesn't run...in my dream politics, we would have a Gore/Obama ticket). However, though either of them might be able to overcome their lack of experience, the two of them together would be a nightmare. All the Republicans would have to do is get behind McCain and a running mate with the most basic foreign policy credentials and they could start picking out their cabinet.

Furthermore, stop for a moment and picture an Obama/Edwards (or Edwards/Obama, it really doesn't matter) ticket. Imagine two young, handsome, young, charismatic, young men standing together on the podium. A large part of the American public will replace "handsome" and "charismatic" with "slick" and "empty", and all of those "youngs" will be filled in with "inexperienced." It would never work; the two would constantly be at odds for media attention, and their image would compound the suspicions of voters who believe that early forties is far too young to be President. Any ticket where the vice-presidential candidate brings the exact same traits as the presidential candidate and doubles the intensity of their shared flaws is doomed to failure.

Either of these men would make a great President, and the possibility of either of them winning is not far-fetched; Edwards is from the South and he has worked hard for the nation's poorest. Obama is the protagonist in a political phenomenon that has not been seen in decades (though I wish people would stop saying that he's going to fizzle out just because that's what happened to Howard Dean; it could happen to Obama, but in the minds of most voters, Dean flopped because of the scream and the scream alone, and Obama is far too deliberate to ever let that happen). I would bet with almost complete certainty that if neither of them win the nomination, one of them will win the Vice Presidential spot, which would give either one the experience credentials he needs to win later on.

But the two of them together is just not a possibility. Obama/Edwards is the dream of progressives who are wishfully ignoring political reality, and it would be a death sentence to a Democratic presidency.

Tags: 2008 elections, president, primaries, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Joe Biden (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 29 comments

  •  You might want to check the polls again. (4+ / 0-)

    In the early states, where the race will almost certainly be narrowed to two if not decided outright, Obama is looking weaker than Edwards.

    •  God I hope General Clark runs..... (0+ / 0-)

      He is more progressive and seems better poised to win over red voters than Mr. "I am the co-sponor of the IWR".

      This worthless message is 100% poll-tested and has been run by a dozen focus groups.

      by clarquistador on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 04:47:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Edwards won his senate seat (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        scoff0165, gustynpip, chicago jeff

        by a small margin but as a challenger against an incumbent republican in a deep red state....  A very impressive feat in case you hadn't noticed.. Incumbent senators almost always win particularly if they are how voters vote anyway... Think of Webb trying to beat Allen in a redder state than VA without Macaca and lynchings... The candidate Edwards beat did not implode like allen did.  very impressive feat you are underestimating...  Beating Alan Keyes is much less impressive to be quite honest.

        •  He couldn't even carry his own state in 2004. (0+ / 0-)

          Explain that to me. He seemed to bring very little to the ticket and he looked like an inexperienced school kid in the debates with Cheney.

          This worthless message is 100% poll-tested and has been run by a dozen focus groups.

          by clarquistador on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:16:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Kerry. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            EdwardsRaysOfSunshine

            People in NC probably thought "I'd rather have Bush than Kerry for President."

          •  Kerry put Edwards in deep freeze in an (0+ / 0-)

            undisclosed location.  Watch the archived Hardball in Chapel Hill appearance.
            NC is a big military state with large bases for each branch of the military that in the rural areas IS the only employer.

            ON hardball Tweety said "did Kerry put you on a short leash?" - Edwards did not deny it.

            IF the Ticket was flip flopped I think the chances of a win would be better.

            The red states strongly dislike Kerry and Hillary..

            •  Edwards blew it at the debate..... (0+ / 0-)

              Notice how not one of the responses here talk about Edwards competence or lack thereof. If Kerry did put Edwards on a short leash, then the debate was his time to shine and he failed miserably in that regard. He couldn't even beat Cheney who, despite been less popular with the Republican base, nevertheless came off as "I am a mature adult and I'm on top of my game" versus Edwards' "I'm like an inexperienced kid" meme.

              There were so many things Edwards could have said in that debate, but he made empty statements and flopped around. And that is why it would be bad to have him as the nominee in 2008, because he is incompetent and lacks depth on many key policy areas (especially foreign policy).

              Everything Edwards says is populist fluff talk and I don't want another "feel good" politician who cannot deliver on his promises.

              This worthless message is 100% poll-tested and has been run by a dozen focus groups.

              by clarquistador on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 06:46:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  untrue talking point (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                gustynpip

                indepedent voters went for Edwards after the debate surveys showed.

                You are making stuff up, and Obama FYI is the ultimate "feel good" politician who serves bup platitudes - just google it..

              •  which blue state do you live in? (0+ / 0-)

              •  Republican talking point (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                gustynpip

                The only way Cheney beat Edwards in the debate was through the mouths of republican talking heads.  It's nice to see you listen to them.

                Polls after the debate clearly said Edwards had won.  To me watching the debate, Edwards clearly had won.  Maybe you have a vendeta against Edwards and that colored your perception of the debate, I don't know.  But now you are just parroting republican talking points.

                "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

                by bawbie on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:44:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Whatya mean "parroting republican talking points" (0+ / 0-)

                  I watched the debate myself in a bar, with a dozen solidly democratic buddies and we all walked away thinking "Wow, Edwards really sucked that one up." He came off as inexperienced, as if he had memorized a few sentences and spouting them over and over on stage. But I understand, it's not easy to trying take Cheney on in a public arena when you were the co-sponsor of his war.

                  Edwards co-sponsored IWR and authored the Patriot Act. These are issues that are highly polarizing and they are even more relevant today than they were two years ago. Do you guys really believe this is inexcusable or that it will go away? If so, then you've learned NOTHING over the past 7 years.

                  I don't want another bullsh1t preemptive war down the line just because we are oh-so-eager to forgive our politicians. And Edwards, as a co-sponsor, I find hard to forgive. Precedents need to be set and it's about frickin' time that we stop rewarding politicians for being irrational.

                  The only reason people like John Edwards is because he has a nice face and he makes blanket statements that the average Joe can understand. Beyond that, he brings little to the table in terms of leadership.

                  This worthless message is 100% poll-tested and has been run by a dozen focus groups.

                  by clarquistador on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 09:25:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't think you know what leadership is (0+ / 0-)

                    Edwards has shown genuine leadership when it comes to tackling the problem of poverty all over the world.  He has stepped up to the plate and lead where politicians for decades have just turned their backs.

                    On the war, for starters, NO DEMOCRAT would start a preemptive war.  Period.  Edwards has shown leadership on the war too, being the first presidential candidate to apologize for voting for the war, and now leading the fight to escalate the war, being on of the first to hitch the word 'escalation' to the "surge" and also coining the phrase "the McCain Doctrine".

                    To say the "authored" the Patriot Act is just false.

                    I think you and your bar buddies didn't like Edwards performance because you are Clarkies, but, as I pointed out before, a majority of people disagreed with you.

                    "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

                    by bawbie on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 09:41:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  you sound like someone who lives in a blue state (0+ / 0-)

            the culture and voters in red states do not see the world as we do.

            If hillary is at the top it won't matter who is the VP...  Kerry was so demonized by the vast right wing conspiracy that he became toxic.

            Honestly how many Kossacks supported Kerry because it was against Bush??

        •  This is not an Edwards-bashing diary. (0+ / 0-)

          If Edwards ends up on the ticket, I won't complain. The only thing in this article that I am bashing is the idea that an Obama/Edwards or Edwards/Obama ticket would be close to unstoppable.

    •  In addition to checking the polls, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MeanBoneII

      you might want to check your cliched sexist stereotypes at the door.  Only "teenage girls" and "dissatisfied housewives" would vote for Obama & Edwards????  My god, it's been awhile since I've heard someone be dumb enough to make the assumption that women are incapable of judging a candidate on his merits rather than his looks.  Oh, of course you think only the "unsatisfied housewives" will do that.  If women get enough sex at home, then they have a better capacity of judging merit????  If you're going to help rather than hurt your candidate, you might want to give a little more thought to what you write.

    •  Would you mind (0+ / 0-)

      directing me to the part where I implied differently?

  •  Interesting analysis (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pHunbalanced, chicago jeff

    I would disagree that Hillary is popular enough to be significantly better than Kerry - Obama and Edwards are two candidates I like specifically because I know they can connect even with people in my home state.

    My parents are Republican, but are intrigued by both Edwards and Obama. They will not under any circumstances vote for Hillary. I think Hillary will win, but it will be close, and she won't have any coattails. We can do better.

    There's one thing that's absolutely clear: Edwards needs Obama in the race to have any shot at winning the nomination. Hillary is very scared of this possibility.

    I want to see Obama win the nomination, but I would be satisfied with Edwards.

  •  A lot depends on how they run. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pHunbalanced

    Not just running mate and not just positioning along the left-center-right continuum.

    Personal discipline, building their campaign teams, making sound decisions as they are forced to respond to one another.

    I really like Obama and Edwards because they both present a vision of how America is and how it ought to be that fits with my ideas about progressivism.  But I'm acutely aware that as relatively fresh candidates, they could easily crash and burn with a single mistake.

    Like Dean's Iowa yell.***

    However, I think it's really hard to predict how things would play out.  For instance, if McCain pushes for more troops and Obama opposes that with speech that resonates with people the way his keynote address did, it might not matter much who his running mate would be.  Obama might say:  

    Of course experience is good but wouldn't we be better off if we had Edwards instead of Cheney as vice president these last 6 years?  Cheney proves that experience isn't what matters most.

    But if someone else ran on a different platform... who knows.
    ___________
    ***Just an opinion!  My opinion about my opinion is that it could easily be wrong and is based on visceral impression rather than, say, focus-group research or analysis of public opinion data.  BTW, I like Dean and would've place him in my top three in 2004 (just behind Edwards and Clark).

  •  Edwards/Obama (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bawbie, Eiron, windje

    How did I live without him?

    by Pumpkinlove on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:43:20 AM PDT

    •  Agree (1+ / 0-)

      If I had to pick a ticket today, it would be Edwards/Obama

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:55:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I love Edwards (0+ / 0-)

        I would pick him with almost any solid V.P.

        Though a Gore/Edwards ticket would do nicely too.

        How did I live without him?

        by Pumpkinlove on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 06:32:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think Edwards/Clark would be the (0+ / 0-)

          strongest ticket.  Obama would be good,too, though.  But Edwards and Obama both hold much of the same appeal, whereas Clark would bring a different edge to the ticket and thus cast a wider net.  I don't see Edwards in the second position - don't think he'd help another candidate much, having already been there.  But as the main ticket, I love him!  It's time we have someone that's long been for the working people there at the top.

    •  What Pumpkinlove said. (0+ / 0-)

      Edwards/Obama would be close to an unstoppable force.

      When I crap, I always refer to it as "taking a Bush". - Underground Pirate of Crooks and Liars.

      by Disillusioned on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 08:26:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Okay, so I (0+ / 0-)

      got chewed out by Edwards supporters, even though I have no problem with him, and the people I was actually trying to reach with this diary don't even deem it worthy of a response to explain why they disagree with everything I just wrote.

  •  OBAMA is far and away the best for 2008, BUT ... (0+ / 0-)

    Aren't we concerned with electability? ... You aren't naive enough to imagine that he won't be scurillously attacked, are you? If only we weren't thinking of a shameless electorate in many cases, Obama would and SHOULD be the choice to head the ticket.  

    The means for getting DEMS elected, however, DOES seem (if we set aside wishful thinking) to have Edwards at the top and Obama as VP.  

    Sure Edwards will be (and has been) attacked for having been a lawyer--weird though it is--and for not having much foreign policy background experience.  The FUZZY thinking conservatives and the "SWIFT-BOAT" types don't bother with adding that G.W.B. didn't either and yet they evidently felt his "resolve" was sufficient.  Well, that "resolve", as it turns out, is nothing more than stubbornness--petulence--like a little boy who wants his own way.  

    Back to the problem, though: It's simply paramount in importance that we have a Democratic president and VEEP.  The best ticket (ONLY) in terms of electability is, as I said above, EDWARDS/OBAMA.

  •  If he's a "cute also ran" -- (0+ / 0-)

    Why put him on the ticket. Obama doesn't have enough experience, I'm fed up with hearing about him. Remember, the last US Senator to win election was JFK.

    Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. - Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by number six on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 09:13:34 AM PDT

  •  Tags fixed (0+ / 0-)

    "obama" changed to "Barack Obama", "edwards" changed to "John Edwards", and "biden" changed to "Joe Biden".

    Per the FAQ: When using names as tags, please be sure to use the first and last names and middle initials when needed.

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    by sardonyx on Wed Jan 03, 2007 at 10:06:42 AM PDT

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