Daily Kos

Those damned nonbelievers

Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:22:10 PM PDT

In the long lead up to the Obama announcement, we’ve watched as some Democrats, many of them religious, some of them politically inexperienced, have begun the ‘great effort’ to push the a-religious - atheists, nonbelievers, etc. - ‘over there’ somewhere, in a completely misguided attempt to somehow gain ‘respectability’ from some mythical ‘moderate middle mainstream America’. I’ve watched the non-stop praise for a man  who has essentially made secular Americans and non-believers out to be (the usual) conspiratorial boogeyman du jour. (See Fred Clarkson’s analysis of how Obama is buying into a frame damaging to us all.)

Hi. That would be me so many seem to think is a problem. One of THE problems, not just with the Democratic Party, but with America itself. And why? Merely because I am not a believer.  

This does not bode well, not merely for nonbelievers, but for the work ahead of all of us and the direction this country may take.

The diversionary ongoing drumbeat is being prodded along from many different directions, including pastor Dan, whose apparent idea of a pleasant Friday pastime is to go  mischaracterize PZ Myers' position on Obama,  because, once again, we nonbelievers are misidentified as the problem.

Yup, congrats, my unbelieving friends, we’ve become cumbersome, now that certain Dems can just smell 2008, some now firmly believe the best way to win in 2008 is to jettison us, to make punching bags of us, and to push us aside as a means of ‘distancing themselves from those nasty nasty ‘fundamentalist secularists’ / ‘evangelical atheists’, because apparently everything that’s wrong with America could be fixed were it not for those damn nonbelievers.

Funny, but I’ve heard this before; no, not just that my unbelief is destroying the country (whichever country, the US, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, the list goes on and on). No, what I’m referring to actually is a group that once had some power, has then been out of power, getting a little power, smelling ‘victory’ over the next hill, and deciding the best ’strategy’ to get there is to throw some of their most ardent, yet unpopular supporters out the window in a vain attempt to gain ‘credibility’ and ‘legitimacy’ with some mythical unconvinced ‘middle’.

Yup, been there, done that, have a closet full o’ t-shirts.

You know, like when NOW decided the Lesbians and Bi women were what was holding them back. Or when respectable Gays and Lesbians begin getting just a little social acceptability and then begin tossing the Trans communities, or Bi communities, or Leather communities or all of the above and more overboard (never mind who got them what little shards of ‘acceptability’ in the first place!) or when women working in the anti-domestic violence and anti-rape fields decided some of their founding members were (Oooo! Eeeeeek!) Dykes, and so it was time to get rid of them, because after all, they were writing federal and state grant proposals, and it ‘just wouldn’t look good’ to have Dykes answering the hotline.

As I said, got the closet full of t-shirts, I know this routine.

And this is what we, Queers, nonbelievers, Leatherfolk, (whatever ‘minority’ hat I feel like wearing this week) ‘get’ for trying to work with the larger community. We get our pictures taken down off the wall when ‘the parents’ are coming over to visit.

To some extent, non-believers on dKos are well aware of how tenuous our stance around here can be at times. I’ll quote just a little of what I wrote in response to the ‘atheists get the f@ck outta my face’ diary, responding specifically to the notion that if a christian posted a diary telling all non-believers they were going to hell they'd be run off dKos 'on a rail':

To the contrary, it'd be on the rec list. (I'm only half joking).

Yes a properly worded piece of shit could absolutely make the rec list around here.

Oh sure, there'd be a lot of hand wringing, and fudging around over language, lots of 'but you're not doing it right'-ing, but simple fact of the matter is, that kind of diary here isn't even necessary to convey how this is a blog that is religion supportive and at times quite openly hostile to atheists.

The very notion of the ongoing pastor Dan 'services' week in and week out, the fawning over Obama as he makes secular Americans out to be bogeymen, and the very creation of Street Prophets tells us atheists in ways subtle and overt that this is just another space in which we are sometimes tolerated, sometimes kicked at, and sometime shat upon, like when a diary titled 'atheists get the f@ck out of my face' makes the rec list.

We're put up with, but told to 'pipe down'. The mere presence of a diary or two is enough to get some, and apparently YOUR knickers in a knot- so much so, that you have some deep seated need to define us out of existence, into yet another class of believer-dom, because DawnG abhors a vacuum. The notion of a lack of belief, coupled with a willingness to give that voice becomes some kind of pseudo-'threat’.

Unfortunately, it's not merely the occasional comment or diarist, but the way religion and its adherents sometimes receive a treatment around here that is very different from the kind of treatment a nonbeliever often faces. (Mind you, we're realatively used to it, dKos is not unlike much of American attitudes, even when labeled 'lefty or progressive'.) Unlike any mere mortal's diary where any member of the community commenting is an expected norm, an atheist speaking out in disagreement on a pastor Dan diary can result in troll ratings, as if we are somehow supposed to treat such diaries differently than any other diary here. Certain diaries are apparently beyond a discussion of the actual writing, the content, and the implications of such- instead, the presence of a nonbeliever gets treated more akin to an intruder- somehow 'in' someone else's space.

Naturally, the same does not hold true when an atheist posts a diary; there, every word is up for discussion, debate, and twisting into insane notions like 'atheism is a religion'.

Face it, pastor Dan has become a dKos ‘sacred cow.’ His diaries, unlike any other diary here on this political blog, are treated as some kind of sacrosanct space, a place where no, not all the community is welcomed to come and discuss the issues raised and the language used therein. To call pastor Dan on his shit is tantamount to farting in church. And ‘legitimacy’ is compounded by the creation of "Street Prophets, a Daily Kos Community."

Apparently all of us animals here on the farm are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Some may disagree, but that is my personal impression, speaking as a nonbeliever, and my experience on this blog.

All of this is the real effect of playing the "see, no really, we’re religious too!" game, and scapegoating the very people who consistently work for ‘reality based’ candidates who are pragmatists and who we hope anyway, we’re sending to Washington (or any other office) to work on real people’s real problems in the real world.

You know, as opposed to the current administration that puts people onto committees who believe things like prayer is what best to use to deal with PMS. Basing either domestic or foreign policy on one’s favourite pet prophecy, or end times scenario, or the voices in one’s head, or other such nonsense ain’t exactly working out all that great. Yup, call me a proud nonbeliever, but when Bush goes into Iraq because he thinks god told him to, and he holds out a faith-based notion that there were WMDs out there, somewhere, and that the shooting ‘will continue until morale improves’, I just happen to think we can do better.

Did you hear that?

We can do better.

So the oh so hip hot happenin’ ‘2008 answer’? Get the unpopular nonbelievers outta here (but hey, stick ‘em on a phone bank somewhere, they’re really good at doing the ‘behind the scenes work’!) and go tug on some shirtsleeves saying ‘hey Mr and Mrs America, look, we Dems have faith! We got ourselves a candidate with Jesus! It’s ok, you can vote for us now - Democrat really isn’t synonymous with atheist - we ALL know atheists are the REAL enemy here.

Yup, we make a useful someone to point fingers at come election time, so that said Democratic candidate, be it Obama, or Clinton, or any of the rest of ‘em can say, look voter we have more in common with you than we do with THEM, those atheists over there! We’re Christians too! You and me, we got plenty we can work on together, because we have a ‘commonality’. And we all know that faith is synonymous with morality, right? So, we Dems must have some morality, cause hey, look, at least we’re not like THEM, those atheists, over there- the common enemy.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, this little ‘we’re religious too!’ game has had five real world effects:

  1. It’s got more people babbling about their personal religious testimony and lifetime’s worth of ever evolving faith(s) , because after all, so many people can waste hours (and HOURS) ‘singing the song of me’ all over the net. It keeps people plenty preoccupied.

  2. It results in an avalanche of dinner table conversations, watercooler chatter, and op-ed pages chock full of ‘heartfelt discussions’ about the role (or not) of faith in government, a marketing buzz that Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and D. James Kennedy couldn’t have accomplished in their combined lifetimes - but which wouldn’t have been possible without their lifetimes worth of work for exactly ‘such as a time as this’.

  3. Endless pleas for non-believers,  and ever just plain ole people to read Obama’s book about his religious evolution/personal testimony (again, see point 2) - a witnessing tool the likes of which evangelists everywhere have to repent of their envy of, ‘cause they wish they had thought of it first!

  4. The distancing of the Dem party and individual people from nonbelievers, and yes, in some cases our lifetimes worth of political experience. This drives a nice little wedge that cuts people who may have less experience off from those who have ‘so been there done that’, thus ensuring some of us nonbelievers throw our hands up in disgust and walk out, we take our toys and go home, we’re done now, we tried, you behaved like asses when the chips were down, we got fucked over again, and some of us might not be so willing to make ourselves vulnerable like that ever again. Meanwhile, all you pleading for the social acceptability you’re not going to get Dems are going to once again, get to re-invent the wheel. Have fun with that, let us know how it works out for ya.

  5. An unbelievable amount of energy being wasted in diaries titled things like "atheists get the f@ck outta my face" which actually made the rec list Friday night, I might add, and an unbeleiveable amount of energy being wasted on trying to insist that all atheists are actually believers, that atheism is a religion, and that we are somehow responsible for the deaths of millions. Gee thanks. How productive. Not very rational, but hey...

  6. ...and most importantly energy, time, attention etc all being diverted from what really matters here, dealing with the mess we’re now really in:
    • the fact that we are now a nation that tortures people,

    • the fact that because we refuse to make their be any real world consequences for Bushco (war crimes tribunal comes to mind) means they all ride off into the sunset, scott-free and we’re left to try to deal with the mess they’ve made, you know, little things, like the amount of money our great great grandchildren are going to be owing the Chinese thanks to those ‘deficit savvy’ republifucks.

    • Awkward ‘little’ details, like peak oil and environmental tipping points that are looking more and more like they’re in our rear view mirror.

    • Silly ‘little’ things like what is happening to the people of the gulf coast, or formerly of the gulf coast, access to healthcare, child hunger, etc.

    • Pick something of meaning, pretty much anything that really needs to happen in the real world, I can pretty much guarantee, it’s more important than running around pitching hissy fits over the atheist ‘under the bed.’


If you insist on learning the hard way, please at least bother to LEARN this time.

Put simply, many of you are simply too busy dying your hair, clipping your nails, and out buying ‘the right dress’ before ‘his parents come over’ to deal with what’s really happening to our country right now. And that’s cute and all, but there’s real work to be done. So you want to waste time and energy on whether or not atheism is some  kinda religion - it’s not - knock yourself out, you wanna chuck me overboard, because ‘you’re in the business of making Democrat synonymous with "religious too"? Give me a break.

That trick never works.

I’d just throw up my hands in disgust and let some of you learn the hard way, but it seems some of you don’t learn, no matter how many times you go through it.

And in the meantime, you’re wasting our time making me the enemy.

This blog represents a subset of some Democrats’ sentiments from across the country (and yes, international perspective as well). Yes, most people are believers of one stripe or another. But Friday we atheists around here went from the barely tolerated, to the mischaracterized/demonized and cussed at AS A CLASS OF PEOPLE, both diaries on the rec list. (Cussed at and told to essentially get out of ‘someone’s space’ after the diarist had first clicked on two atheist’s diaries, then wrote her attack on all of us.)

No, this isn’t a ‘goodbye cruel world diary, it’s a ‘you’re being an idiot, stop fucking around, and get back to work’ diary.

Tags: Democratic party, strategy, atheism, religion (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 39 comments

  •  just what it looks like (12+ / 0-)

    from where I sit.

    barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

    by stormcoming on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:30:45 PM PDT

  •  Oh for fucks sake... (12+ / 0-)

    ...being a non-believer in any faith or an atheist doesn't make you the enemy.  Fuck, I'm a goddamn atheist.

    What makes certain people objectionable is that they see Dan as a threat to them somehow.  Which, of course, he is not, unless your political agenda is evangelical atheism.  

    In which case you get the same reaction you'd get if I went around writing diaries saying "Covert to Jews for Jesus - we are the one true faith."  Dan is a "sacred" cow around here because he is the antithesis of evangelical; his faith needs to gain no followers to fulfill him.

    The advocacy that we have or ought to as a party is one of religious and nonreligious pluralism, one which respects the personal choices of all Americans.  Indeed, even as an atheist, I can say without regret that it is indeed the atheists in the community who are at fault for not having respected that; no one writes diaries saying "Christianity is the only answer" here.  Politics has nothing more to do with the lack of religion than with the presence of it.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:30:46 PM PDT

  •  The Democrats are playing with fire (11+ / 0-)

    If they follow the advice of their loser consultants--yet again--and try to marginalize the unchurched in order to reach out to a handful of persuadable evangelicals, they risk losing 10 to 20 million people, enough to make sure that they never win a national election again. But hey, no one ever accused Democratic consultants of having a learning curve.

    Replete with "misstatements" and elisions and retracted and redacted and revoked assertions.--Carl Bernstein on HRC's record.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:31:27 PM PDT

    •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

      Kerry won 84% of the nonreligious vote and he kept trying to remind everyone that at one point he was going to be a priest!

      Atheist voters WILL vote democrat no matter how religious the the nominee is, because we know it can't be as bad as the Republicans.

      It's very sad but very true: They fuck us over because they know they can get away with it.

      Real beauty is seldom appreciated by popular culture

      by Mikesco on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:36:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  how about writing no one off (14+ / 0-)

      let them write themselves off to be sure, but those who aspire to lead this country, whether from the Executive or Legislative branches, should aspire to be leaders of all the people not just some.  Part of what has been wrong in recent years was the willingness of the Republicans to write off large chunks of the American people on the grounds that they would not vote Republican even if they voted, and in fact to try to discourage them from voting.

      If we believe we have the proper message it is our responsibility to deliver that message to all Americans, to hope that we can persuade them.

      I do not expect that all will be willing to listen.  There are some who think only of themselves, or of a small fraction of our populace as worthy of their attention.  I am not like that.

      I applaud Obama for being willing to go to Rick Warren's church, just like I applaud Warren for being willing to have him.   They sought to find some level of common ground on which they could cooperate.  As one who has been active in politics for most of his sentience (having done my first political activity in 1956 at age 10), I know that meaningful advancement in politics and governance comes about through the building of coalitions, from the finding of common ground.

      Please note, I am not arguing for a strategy of triangulation, but I am arguing not to ignore any segment of the population. To write off all evangelicals because of the likes of some is to ignore the very great common ground on social responsibility and environmental stewardship that many evangelicals and others of faith have.

      My wife is a devoted Christian, whose commitment to environmentalism comes directly from her faith.  I also have dear friends who totally reject any idea of the divine as normally defined in contemporary religion who are as committed to economic and environmental justice.  I would hope our vision and our outreach would at least have the prospect of inviting all.

      Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

      by teacherken on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:46:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Beautiful, teacherken n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        trashablanca, ormondotvos
        •  My wife thought so, too (5+ / 0-)

          she not only recommended the comment, she said that she thought it was worthy of being its own diary, perhaps developed a bit more.  Methinks perhaps it might be worthy of being a top comment, although it is probably too late for that today.  

          I am simply happy one or too people read it and found it of value.

          Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

          by teacherken on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:52:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You wife would be a good person... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, ormondotvos

        if she were a non-believer, and I suspect your non-believing friends would be equally involved if they had religion.

        Religious belief or non-belief is really irrelevant. It is the ethics and actions of the individual that matter.

        Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

        by slatsg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:13:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The 300 million person strategy (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ormondotvos, Jimdotz

        Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

        by bumblebums on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:37:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Saddleback/Rick Warren (6+ / 0-)

        From where I sit, watching Democratic candidates enter into symbiotic relationships with Rick Warren's Saddleback church is a disaster.

        Yes, Warren has discovered that AIDS can be a means to organize both "internally"- within church culture, and externally- evangelizing vulnerable populations. It can also be a major means for churches to tap into government funding through the faith based spending efforts.

        Rather than rejecting Bush's Faith Based spending mess and attempting to defund it, Democrats are looking at ways to butress the programs and if anything, try to get 'the good guy' churches in on it.

        Obama's appearance with Warren, Sam Brownback and others is an explicit endoresment not merely of the continuance of the faith based tax dolar buffet, but of Saddleback and Warren's AIDS programs, which are then, worth a look.

        While in America, assumedly these groups are opt in, one really has to wonder about the international programs considering the realities on the ground there and the entanglement with US federal AIDS spending- gearing towards becoming provision through churches.

        Part of the "goal" of the small AIDS groups Saddleback is trying to set up in churches all around the world is "healing for a lifetime through Christ".

        Their programs are "christ centered". One of the reasons the Saddleback campus location was chosen for their group was so "group members who aren’t Christians become more comfortable at the church and may be more likely to attend worship services."

        This is about a desire for increased church growth.

        I find it VILE that churches are (once again) fashioning themselves into leeches to prey on some of the most vulnerable and their families, with government funding, but then, in my book, Warren ain't exactly a good guy.

        For Obama to explicitly endorse that- both the ongoing entanglement in faith based spending fiasco and the actual programs themselves, which appear geared towards religious participation and  conversion of nonbelievers is at best, sad.

        No, not merely sad, Warren is about government funded proselytizing as foreign policy, and to continue that through a democratic president (should we be so 'fortunate',) would be exactly as I stated above, a disaster.

        And beneath what I would expect of a candidate for president.

        For source of where the above Saddleback quotations came from, see here

        Specifically, these-

        A support group simply is a regularly-scheduled, biblically based meeting where people infected with or affected by HIV gather to share their stories, find connections, and be accepted in a Christ-centered environment. In addition, they learn practical, biblically based skills to help them emotionally, spiritually, and mentally deal with life’s trials, traumas, and tragedies.

        "The goal is to find help, hope, and healing for your pain," said Tommy Hilliker, a pastor in pastoral care at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif. "It’s help for today, hope for tomorrow, and healing for a lifetime through Christ."

        and

        Provide a safe place of Christ-centered care

        and most importantly-

        Saddleback Church holds its support group meetings on the church campus. By doing that, group members who aren’t Christians become more comfortable at the church and may be more likely to attend worship services.

        barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

        by stormcoming on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 08:07:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well written. (6+ / 0-)

    The diary raises many valid points. Some will disagree, but I hope it makes a few good people actually think about their attitudes toward non-believers.

    I no longer get angry at the stupid insensitive remarks of some believers, just mildly amused at their ignorance.

    Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

    by slatsg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:00:54 PM PDT

    •  Thanks (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      moiv, slatsg, keefer55, blueoasis, ormondotvos

      While I wish mild amusement was enough, unfortunately I'm talking about real actions and real strategies that are having effects on real people here.

      This is a diary about strategy, the Democratic party, and dKos itself.

      And yes, in it's own way, it's an action diary.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess I've mellowed with age. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        stormcoming, blueoasis, ormondotvos

        I was speaking of my way of dealing with the religious nuts at the personal level. At one time I would rip them using there own bible. A product of a Catholic school, I know it better than many religious people.

        But now ... they aren't worth my time. Every now and then I will remind them of Jesus' version of the last judgement ... and wish them well in their supposed fate. But generally their ignorance just makes me laugh.

        Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

        by slatsg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:30:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It does work both ways, though... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      Stupid insensitive remarks are no more the exclusive province of believers than they are of non-believers.

      There is plenty of narrowminded, bigoted intolerance coming from some on both sides.

      There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified, and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

      by slksfca on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:23:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When Democrats start voting (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    slksfca

    for legislation that curbs my rights, just because I'm an atheist, then and only then will I say I'm in the same boat as gay people.

    Democrats aren't shoving Atheists aside.  I don't get the point.

    And lay off PastorDan.  That was merely poor taste on your part.

  •  If Pastor Dan wants to waste time and bandwidth (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kingsmeg, blueoasis, ormondotvos

    with his useless prayer threads, far be it from me to stop him.  As long as he doesn't get in the way of people actually doing something, then I have no problem with him partitioning off a chunk of DK for his little church rituals.  Unfortunately, Obama is a bigger problem.  Rick Warren has ties with dominist organizations and cozying up to him either suggests he's not that bright (doubtful) or a sleazy political opportunist (more likely).  There is definitely an element within the Democratic Party that is trying to purge nonbelievers from its ranks, but I'm not convinced Obama is one of them.  Time will tell.  In the meantime, maybe atheists should quit giving money and support to a party that just wants our votes and not our voice, and instead send it to groups like People for the American Way, American Atheists, and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

    Proud member of the libertarian wing of the Democratic party.

    by ooddaa on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 08:07:30 PM PDT

  •  I'm mixed on this.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kingsmeg, blueoasis, ormondotvos

    Honestly, from what I've seen PastorDan is pretty mellow and isn't 'the enemy.'  He seems to be the sort of live and let live christian that's become so rare these days.  (Don't get me wrong.... he's just as nutty as any other christian, but it's a nuttyness that doesn't thrust itself into my life much.)

    Now.... Obama I have to agree with you on.  Also this board, strangely enough.  Or possibly not so strange.  Throwing atheists under the bus is nothing new here or with the Democratic party.

    Our paralells with the gay community aren't so divergent as some of you believers like to think they are.... because it's become hip to be pro-gay rights... or at least appear to be when anybody's looking.

    Fuck appearances.  Actions are what counts... and if you throw the godless community under the bus again this time you will lose.  Again.  There's only just so many times you can kick a dog before it bites back.

    But then a lot of you have yet to learn that lesson about teh gayzors.... and they've been working at it longer than we have.  So I suppose I shouldn't really be too terribly surprised.

  •  As a Canadian, (6+ / 0-)

    I would be hard pressed to name the religious affiliation of 5 Canadian politicians.  The only ones I do know are the idiotic Albertan conservative faction who are copying the Rove playbook and trying to Christianize Canadian politics.  Over my dead body.

    The US stands out among industrialized nations as the only place where religion occupies such a place in public life, which is ironic considering the whole 'separation of Church and State' thingy.  The notion that a Church should be entrusted with any sort of essential service is anathema here, we systematically purged hospitals and schools of their religious administrations. There is a huge conflict of interest in having a Church in charge of anything more important than burying people, and they manage to screw that up, too.

    I wonder if the Christian factions in the US yearn for the good old days when they could burn heretics.

    Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

    by Kingsmeg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 09:54:16 PM PDT

    •  you nailed it (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      slatsg, Kingsmeg, blueoasis, ormondotvos

      religion has absolutely no business intermingling with operation of the government, and the government should always remain neutral in matters of religion. but no american politician has the balls to come out and say that because it would be the end of their career. america has let this incestuous relationship go way too far, and i suspect we are well past the tipping point. sometimes i think the founding fathers should have remained completely silent about religion as so many people have interpreted freedom of religion as a freedom allowing them to push their beliefs off on everyone else in society. we'll never win this battle, but personally i feel a lot better about myself by carrying a sharpie pen and blocking out 'in god we trust' on all paper currency that crosses my hands.

      Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. -Edward Abbey (-7.75 -5.79)

      by elkhunter on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 10:49:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bwahahahaha.... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        elkhunter

        I've got a couple of American bills in my wallet, I'm gonna try that.

        I most certainly not trust in god to do anything except take my money.  Oh, wait...?  Maybe that is the right place for the phrase.

        Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

        by Kingsmeg on Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 12:25:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You've quite a little 'nest' going (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      moiv, blueoasis, ormondotvos

      in Langley B.C.(Campus Crusade, Focus on the Family, etc) as well- among other places- Lethbridge, Alberta comes to mind, for example.  

      Plenty of south of the boarder traffic headed up your way to make trouble, too- dig around on some local conferences and start looking at presenters bios.

      Not that it's all being imported, you've got plenty of domestic on your end if you dig deep enough. The Miracle Channel is a fine place to start looking. Sure, chuckle all you want, but then realize communications are important infrastructure.

      Now that getting into the US is becoming messy for some, we're seeing more conferences being held beyond the US borders- Canada being among the places the external to America, American wingnut conferences are taking place these days.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 11:32:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I realize we've got a bunch (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueoasis

        of crazies here, same as everywhere else.  Heck, I was raised by a pair of Christian fundies, they sure as hell tried to screw up my life.  But I digress.  Our regulations on use of airwaves and such have not been destroyed, nor have our hate laws.  These people might have radio stations, but they can't do the same as their US counterparts.

        In fact, Fox News cannot be broadcast in Canada, because it violates several of our laws.

        I'm not saying that Harper and his neocons aren't going to try to eliminate these laws, perhaps they are trying.  But they won't succeed, and right now we're just looking for an excuse to bring down his government.  

        Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

        by Kingsmeg on Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 12:28:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry, but... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          stormcoming

          While the alleged illegality of FOX News in Canada may be some kind of urban legend among progressives there, it's freely available on both Canadian direct-to-home satellite providers, on Bell ExpressVu and Star Choice. It's also available to Canadians via Rogers and Shaw cable providers. As far as I can tell from the providers' websites, none of them provide FOX News with basic service, those that want it must subscribe to certain programming packages for an extra fee. The CRTC approved FOX News for carriage in Canada over two years ago.

          Whether anyone in Canada actually watches the channel - or admits to watching it - is a different story, however.

          The point being, despite whatever regulation may exist, the border has no effect on satellite transmission, and obtaining U.S. TV programming is trivially easy for those in Canada who gain the technical means and/or are willing to pay to obtain it. The same is true for those down here who wish to watch Canadian media.

  •  I've written a few atheist diaries... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    moiv, slatsg, Mike Doughney, blueoasis

    And I sadly agree with the general tone of this diary.

    PastorDan is no saint, I have found. The intolerance is there, and Kos does himself no favors mixing religion with politics.

    The reasons are simple:

    Politics is the art of getting people to compromise, but not to compromise with no relation to the truth about things, but the relation to that truth that can be gained from mutual agreement about how truth is gained.

    This kumbaya bullshit about everyone's opinion being of equal value and considered equally corrodes that process.

    Just like DailyKos uses as a mantra that "strong claims demand strong proofs".

    So where are the strong proofs demanded of the religious statments about the nature of reality?

    Stormcoming is correct: you're asking for trouble to concede to the religious evangelists that their revealed truths will be accepted as reality.

    DailyKos should be holding the religious to the same standard of proof as any other postulator.

    After all, we troll out tinhats in every other field, but then allow Christians to postulate their crazy ideas.

    And DailyKos loses validity the more it kisses Jesus. Wall of separation is necessary here.

    Just sayin'...

  •  Well, I definitely (0+ / 0-)

    hit the tip jar, though I'm inclined to agree with the commenter who said "good grief, the point is pluralism".  

    Overall, as a rhetorical device, intimations of persecution are seldom terribly effective.  Pastor Dan's columns succeed to great extent because he seems like a nice, welcoming person.  In the political ecology of dkos, I suspect the only way to really compete would be an equally charming explication of enlightenment ideals, sans the church.

    That said -- I think for a lot of people, Christianity (and 'round most places in America, it's always Christianity) seems smarmy and rotten to the core for many people, myself included.  Mileage varies (and I'm not say it is those bad things: but many really nice people feel that way, quite strongly) Broad political appeals based on it -- even if sharing a basic humanism with my own values -- feel compromised and disonest, even if they aren't spouting the current meme of "we're values liberals and love God just as much as you do!"  So I get your point, I think, at least I can certainly appreciate as much as I do get at 2 ayem here in the left coast.  It's not going to change though -- at some point liberalism bends to the values of the middle class (some of which are intolerant and smug) or fails.  I'm happy to grant a little smug from folks who have no love for me or mine, if we can have habeas corpus and trustworthy elections back, thanks...

    I also think that atheists as well as others can and do share and describe varieties of spiritual experience, and its something many homo saps find interesting.  

    •  but this is a streategy diary (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pb, slatsg, jessical

      I'm not talking about "share(ing) and describe(ing) varieties of spiritual experience" or "competing" with with pastor Dan diaries, nor am I advocating filling the diaries with endless writings about the enlightenment.

      I'm very specifically not here to go around in circles on the alledged merrits of religion or atheism- if anything that is precisely what I'm arguing against- as it's a time eater, and a distraction- that keeps all of us from doing the real work ahead of us.

      Tactically and strategically, I'm saying stop marginalizing some of the Dem party's strongest supporters in HOPES of gaining the support of some non-existent mushy middle.

      I bring up the pastor Dan diaries only in terms of how there is unequal treatment for non-believers here on Kos- and that's but one example of how the anti-religious bias strategy arc plays out. And in the course of that unending back and forth about religion/atheism, what is atheism, ad nauseum we all lose a tremendous amount of time- time taken directly away from the real work that needs doing.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 12:59:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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