Daily Kos

Un-Patriotic Bastards Prevail on Minimum Wage

by KumarP

Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:59:32 AM PDT

Via CNN article:

Democrats' promise of a quick increase in the minimum wage ran aground Wednesday in the Senate, where lawmakers are insisting it include new tax breaks for restaurants and other businesses that rely on low-pay workers.

On a 54-43 vote, proponents lost an effort to advance a House-passed bill that would lift the pay floor from $5.15 to $7.25 an hour without any accompanying tax cut. Opponents of the tax cut needed 60 votes to prevail.

continued...

...The House passed the increase two weeks ago. Since then, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, and Rep. Charles Rangel, the chairman of the tax writing Ways and Means Committee, have prodded the Senate to keep tax proposals out of the bill.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, scheduled Wednesday's vote to demonstrate the Democrats' lack of support for a straight minimum wage bill without tax cuts.

Reid is backing an $8.3 billion tax package that would extend for five years a tax credit for employers who hire low-income or disadvantaged workers. It also extends until 2010 tax rules that permit businesses to combine as much as $112,000 in expenses into one annual tax deduction.

Anyone else tired of our elected decisionmakers being afraid to make decisions that actually have consequences? Sure, this bill hurts businesses that pay minimum wage, but that's part of the point, and it shouldn't be watered down!

UPDATE: See Nina's comment here. Changed title to reflect.

Tags: harry reid, minimum wage (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 79 comments

  •  How does the lack of 6 more votes (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pb, DemocraticLuntz

    get attributed to Reid?

    by Elwood Dowd on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:00:16 PM PDT

  •  what (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    KumarP, rapala, kaye

    what do you call a person working for you for minimum wage and no benefits?  A SLAVE

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:00:59 PM PDT

    •  That's RETARDED (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      1918, deathsinger

      Look, I have no love for keeping the minimum wage down.  But to compare being paid the minimum wage with being property without rights is just fucking stupid.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:30:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Irfo

        The poor of today are slaves to the society and system. They are disposable, they can die and no one cares. It is you being fucking stupid if you do not see that abusing and using people takes many forms.  Wage slavery is a very real form of slavery.

        Get over your american dream, it doesn't exist.  It is the very odd exception these days which break class barriers down.  Studies have shown this, you want to rise up the class ladder, Head to Finland, it doesn't happen very often here jack.

        Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

        by pissedpatriot on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:38:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you're either a moron... (1+ / 1-)

          Recommended by:
          deathsinger
          Hidden by:
          pissedpatriot

          ...or doing an excellent impression.  Whichever one it is, I could care less.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:44:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Me More Moron (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            pissedpatriot

            I think employees who earn a lot more than minimum wage and whose deepest fear is that they will lose their jobs (big house, late-model cars, DVD players, widescreen TVs, healthcare insurance, etc, are basically slaves, too.

            by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:27:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good for you... (0+ / 0-)

              ...because once again, being a piece of property that your owner can kill at will is exactly like being controlled by your possessions.

              Fucking hell.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:52:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  more than one (0+ / 0-)

                more than one definition einstein

                Definitions of slavery on the Web:

                bondage: the state of being under the control of another person
                the practice of owning slaves
                work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay

                Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

                by pissedpatriot on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:14:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  there (0+ / 0-)

                there would of been no need for slavery in our past if current conditions of today occurred back then.

                Slaves cost a LOT of money to purchase back in the day. You then had to keep them healthy to safeguard your investment. Feed them,house them etc.  
                Today it is MUCH easier to just use people for 8 to 10 hours or more, not worry about intial purchase, not worry about their health, not worry about their housing, food needs etc.  Hell they are disposable in our current system. 8 hours of work for 44 dollars, historic slave owners would probably jump at the chance to abuse people like that.

                Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

                by pissedpatriot on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:22:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah (0+ / 0-)

                A least employers are good to their slaves.

                by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:36:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  De-facto slavery... (0+ / 0-)

        Was indentured servitude any better? Honestly?

        I mean, we don't have company stores these days... but we're pretty close.

        The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

        by Shapeshifter on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:29:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  source? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    KumarP, Aquarius40, guyermo

    Mad Wombat

    by FleetAdmiralJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:03:24 PM PDT

  •  And I don't buy the "Hurts Small Business" line (10+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jesterfox, strengthof10kmen, bablhous, Shapeshifter, rapala, kaye, Overseas, Ellicatt, Evil Betty, califdem

    I own a small business. We have 7 employees. I suppose one could make the case that we can't afford to pay them a living wage, but we do, and if, in the end, that doesn't work, then we don't deserve to be in business.

    Idea:No Blood 4 Oil Action:I use Biodiesel site blog

    by KumarP on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:03:40 PM PDT

    •  Congratulations (0+ / 0-)

      You want to pay more than the minimum wage, I congratulate you sincerely.  If I were a small business owner I would make the same choice.

      However, there are thousands of small businesses around this country who employ people at the minimum wage who are tickled pink to have their jobs.  Those companies will have to find a way to either absorb additional overhead expense, or fire staff.  It is real, and not imaginary.

      "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

      by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:16:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Finding ways to absorb expenses (0+ / 0-)

        Ummm...maybe charge $9.00 for the cesar salad instead of $8.00.  

        Republicans need people to be stupid

        by strengthof10kmen on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:36:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          brownsox

          Problem solved.

          You're kidding, right?

          If not, my reply would be that this is a reality-based community, and real problems call for real answers.

          I would support the minimum wage increase by itself, but I would also do it knowing that it would destroy some small businesses.  On balance, societally, I think it's a price worth paying.  What I wouldn't do is pretend the economic consequences will magically vanish or fail to appear.  If the Republican rider is not a trojan horse for corporate welfare to the WalMarts of the world, then it is something I think they were reasonable in proposing.

          That's all.

          "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

          by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:40:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why will it destroy small businesses? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            The Termite, strengthof10kmen, bablhous

            Robert Reich had what I thought was a good argument on his blog. Small businesses that pay minimum wage are usually service-related businesses that can't be easily transferred overseas and that don't compete nationally or internationally. If every dry cleaner in town raises their prices by 5%, who's going to put them out of business? You could go to the next town over, but oops, they've all raised their prices by 5% too. You've still got shirts that need to be dry-cleaned and as it turns out, an extra 20 cents per shirt is not going to bankrupt you.

            I don't think there's any evidence that raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses. If you've got some I'd like to see it.

            A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

            by tmo on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:25:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK, so... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              The Termite

              Not just the dry cleaners, but all the service businesses that were paying minimum wage raise their prices 5% (is this number based in some reality, or was it just plucked out of the air?).

              Now everyone in your town is paying 5% more for many of the services that they use. Since no one raised their salaries 5% to help cover this additional expense, they cut back on the services that they use and the good that they buy. Then all the businesses in your town watch their revenues go down.

              But it doesn't end there. Businesses are also customers of many of the businees that pay minimum wage, and these businesses see their costs go up. Since many of these businesses aren't paying minimum wage, when it comes time for annual salary increases, they are free to whittle those back to help make up the difference.

              And more...there are business that weren't playing the minimum wage before it was increased, but now the wages they are paying are the same as the wages paid by the businesses that were previously paying the lower minimum wage. So they are no longer competitive when it comes to hiring quality employees.  They can either raise their wages, too, or watch the quality of their workforce deteriorates, along with the quality of their services.  This phenomenon bumps all the way up the ladder, until pretty much every business is paying more for goods, services, and wages, so prices go up across the board.

              So now, the minimum wage earners are right back where they started in terms of what their wages can actually buy with their minimum wages. But one thing is different, now many of the above-minimum-wage earners are earning less, too, and now they are having to pay higher prices, too. At least you can say that about increasing the minimum wage...it's an equal-opportunity boondoggle.

              by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:27:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know if I'd go that far... (0+ / 0-)

                ...though you are correct in adjusting the discussion to the macro vs. the micro.

                There are economic benefits to raising the min wage, and plenty of data to show that it's a net gainer in every state in which it's been tried.  My point is that efforts to ease the pain on small businesses as a result of the adjustment itself should not be scoffed at but embraced by Democrats.

                "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

                by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:10:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And there are plenty of data (0+ / 0-)

                  ...to support the opposite argument.

                  The first question I would ask about every study involving the impact of any government manipulation of an economic variable is how far out they tracked the results.  The widespread use of antibiotics was a net bonanza to the public health in the short run and has become one of its gravest dangers in the long run.

                  by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:28:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Reich is a smart guy... (0+ / 0-)

              ...but I think the example you're citing here does not prove the whole.

              First of all, pricing doesn't work that way.  A choice to pass additional wages along to the customer dollar for dollar is one way a proprietor could go, but lots of factors determine whether that's smart business.  What if in your example the cleaner were right next door, and chose not to pass those prices along but to use it as an opportunity to drop prices to force their competition out of business?  This happens.  And if the cleaner in question traded on the value proposition of low prices, this decision would harm their brand reputation.  A young professional might decide to launder his shirts himself.

              Depending on the competitiveness and price elasticity of the market in question, many businesses simply can't pass costs along, because their customers have too many choices.  Their only choice is to absorb the additional costs, and try to stay afloat.

              "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

              by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:17:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  My point (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            The Termite, Shapeshifter

            My point, and perhaps I made it poorly and without enough clarification is: prices are not fixed. They can be adjusted. Lowering taxes is not the only movable piece in the equation. I think small businesses are great and can be far more efficient, agile, responsible, responsive, ect than corporations...but not every small business is a good business.  

            If a business is so inefficient or it's products are so uderpriced that it can't make paying an employee $7.25/hr in two years(a fulltime wage that still probably doesn't pay the rent for a one bedroom apartment in any area of the country) I don't think a tax cut is going to save them.

            Now if they want to attach small business tax cuts(and I don't really think this tax cut was for small business, it was businesses that "employ low wage workers")to every legislation that includes big giant corporate welfare (NAFTA, CAFTA, energy bill, ect.)then I'm all in. That's the shit that kills small business.

            But I hate the whole meme of if there is not tax cuts for low wage employers the greedy workers will ruin all small business.

            Republicans need people to be stupid

            by strengthof10kmen on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:00:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              strengthof10kmen

              Yes, it's a bullshit meme, and corporatists often overstate the effects of a min wage increase.  I see what you're saying, but you're at a very micro level here, whereas I'm speaking about the labor market and the marketplace in general, where effects will be felt.

              That said, there are positive effects, such as high velocity of cash in the low wage sector -- in other words, what min wage earners earn, they spend, which stimulates the economy.  Call it trickle up.

              The point I was trying to make, which flies in the face of the diarist's striking admission, is that it's bad for this party to appear prepared to hurt small business owners.

              "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

              by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:07:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Amen... (0+ / 0-)

      It's that last line that's important, and that often gets lost in all this.

      If you can't fairly compensate your employees for their labor then why should you be allowed to profit from them? If you can't pay for what you're getting, you do not deserve to be in business.

      The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

      by Shapeshifter on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:34:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's the Senate (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, kaye

    This is how the Senate, unfortunately or not, works. If they could get this bill through without the tax cuts they would. Reid at least allowed a vote on a bill without them. It went down.

    If we still want a minimum wage increase, then we have to give something to get those six extra votes.

    This is why we need to make sure we have 60 Democratic Senators in 2009.

    by Progressive America on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:04:30 PM PDT

    •  I don't think so (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rapala, califdem

      I think the Dems have more leverage on this than Reid's actions show, but they're afraid to use it. America far and away supports it- and that is without the added corporate welfare. Reid did not make this an issue the way he could have. I'll support Reid on a lot of things, but this is corporate welfare, and that makes me pretty sick.

      Idea:No Blood 4 Oil Action:I use Biodiesel site blog

      by KumarP on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:07:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  there are 49 dems. he needs 11 other votes (0+ / 0-)

        he'll get the 2 independents, two dems didn't vote, so he needs 11 republicans. he got 5.

        Mad Wombat

        by FleetAdmiralJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:09:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  How are... (0+ / 0-)

        ...tax breaks for small businesses "corporate welfare?"

        "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

        by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:18:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Clarification (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pb, Jesterfox, strengthof10kmen, Shapeshifter

          An earlier article I read on this topic described the beneficiary of the proposed tax cuts as "small businesses" and not (as CNN writes above) businesses who rely on minimum wage labor.

          That is an important clarification, because they are very different things.  Small businesses do rely disproportionately on min wage labor, but so do some behemoth companies, like McDonalds and WalMart, and I would definitely call that corporate welfare, and would definitely oppose it.

          "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

          by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:26:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Explain to me how Reid... (0+ / 0-)

        can get 6 more votes out of these Republicans?  He can tell them until he is blue in the face that 80% of the public wants this, but these Republicans are not going to switch their votes based on anything Reid and the Dems say or do.  The majority leader is there to do 2 things:

        1.  Control what comes to the floor, which he did by bringing the min wage bill to the floor.
        1.  Control his party caucus, which he did by getting 100% of the Dems behind the bill.

        He can made this the biggest issue of the year and there is no way these right-wingers are going to vote for it unless it has tax cuts.  These Republicans don't care what the American people want, that is the simple truth of politics.  

        "The only thing I would trust Dick Cheney on is if I had a dead hooker in my hotel room." --Jon Stewart

        by DemBrock on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:27:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why did Reid schedule the vote? Simple... (8+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    KLM, FleetAdmiralJ, Terre, The Termite, Shapeshifter, andgarden, esquimaux, DemocraticLuntz

    to get everybody on the record for the straight up/down vote on minimum wage.  Very useful when all those Republican senators are up for reelection in '08.

    Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

    by oldpro on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:12:20 PM PDT

  •  Huh? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CJB, Steve M, Elise

    Wait...hurting business is part of the bill?

    You do not speak for me.

    "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

    by The Termite on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:12:47 PM PDT

  •  Las Vegas (0+ / 0-)

    Reno

    by Bob Johnson on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:19:21 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for changing this. You should also (0+ / 0-)

    change the text that Nina pointed to, eh?

    Here, have some pandas.

    by Little on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:32:58 PM PDT

  •  first 100 hours (0+ / 0-)

    meet the second 1000 days it takes to get the same amount of work done in the Senate.

    D-Day, the newest blog on the internet (at the moment of its launch)

    by dday on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:54:35 PM PDT

  •  FIY: Find Roll Call Votes Here ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Elise

    It's important to keep up with how your Senators and Reps voted.

    Senate roll call votes:
    http://www.senate.gov/...

    House roll call votes:
    http://clerk.house.gov/...

    by Bob B on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:55:50 PM PDT

  •  This is a myth (0+ / 0-)

    Sure, this bill hurts businesses that pay minimum wage, but that's part of the point, and it shouldn't be watered down!

    Businesses that pay minimum wage have historically done better after increases in the minimum wage. In fact, after the last increase in the 90s the economy did quite well...and the increase was one of the reasons attributed to that.

    So, don't repeat the right wing myth, AND let's just chill and see what happens before we toss around insults like "un-patriotic Bastards" and Reid in practically the same sentence. I'm sure we'll work this out.

    Obama, or McCain

    by Elise on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:29:24 PM PDT

  •  tax breaks? OK, make min.wage apply to wait staff (0+ / 0-)

    In most states (all but california? not sure) wait staff are exempt from minimum wage.  And since most people tip with charge cards now, they actually do have taxes withheld.  

    Min.wage applicable to wait staff would go a long way in helping some folks make ends meet.  THEN tax breaks for restaurants might make sense.

    by AshesAllFallDown on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:24:13 PM PDT

    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

      I think Wisconsin's minimum wage ($6.25 or thereabouts) applies to even tipped employees. I spent some time doing pizza delivery for a local chain and the store manager griped a lot about the new minimum wage when it went up, but we did get paid.

      I'm pretty sure more states than not think it's cool to screw over tipped employees, though.

      The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

      by Shapeshifter on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:14:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Permalink | 79 comments