Daily Kos

What's wrong with Grandma?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:14:52 AM PDT

Like many of you, I've spent quite of bit of time reading nyceve's remarkable health care diaries.  I've been wanting for quite some time to write about this issue that has been affecting my own family so terribly, but I could never find the time or the energy.  And I never could really decide whether it was an appropriate subject for a dKos diary. And it's much more than just a health care issue.  So, today I decided to take the time and just do it. You all can determine whether it's appropriate or not.  It's probably going to be a long diary and I hope you will forgive that.

My Grandmother's name is Helen.  She's 85 years old.  We (her family) think she has Alzheimer's disease or an Alzheimer's related condition but the truth is we just don't know.  And it's been damned difficult finding answers.

More below the jump....

My Grandma was always healthy, both physically and mentally.  She was the proverbial ox, and this good health is apparently a genetic thing that has blessed the family for generations.  We're all a bunch of German workhorses. But things started to go wrong with Grandma.

10 years ago my Grandmother went to her gynecologist for an annual exam.  The doctor asked her about her general health.  It was wintertime and she was feeling a mild depression because of the continued dreary weather and the fact that she couldn't spend time outdoors as she wanted.  My grandma owns a working farm and her life was all about the great outdoors.  The gynocologist gave her samples of Wellbutrin.  

As far as we were able to determine, she took the medication as instructed. 4 days later she went to the local mom and pop grocery store to do her weekly shopping. The cashiers, who all knew my Granny by name, were concerned by her behavior and alerted the store manager.  Grandma, who was by then obviously disoriented, abandoned the cart in the store and walked outside.  The store manager followed her, thank the Goddess, or chances are Grandma might have gotten in the car and tried to drive. When the manager stopped her and asked if she was OK, she put her hands to the sides of her head, cried out, and collapsed in the parking lot. She was taken by ambulance to the nearest ER.  For several hours (it felt like forever) she had many similar episodes.  After seeing a neurologist and going through a gazillion tests it was determined that she was experiencing grand mal (tonic-clonic) seizures.  

At about this time our family divided into two 'factions'.  There are some who are the 'questioners' and the rest are the 'accepters'.  It sounds weird, doesn't it, to put one's extended family into categories?  But that's the way it was and that's the way it stayed.  The accepters didn't question the diagnosis at all.  Seizures?  OK then, do what you can to fix it and make it better.  The questioners wanted to know why in hell a 75 year old woman who never was never ill  would suddenly begin having grand mal seizures after taking Wellbutrin for a few days.  It seemed too much of a coincidence.

We never got an answer.  Not from anyone in the medical community.  Maybe they didn't know.  Maybe they didn't want to say.  Were they afraid we'd try to sue the gynocologist?  Maybe.  I don't know.

So the decline begins here.  She was released from the hospital and returned home after a few days at my Mom's house. The doctors (her primary care physician and the neurologist) had a difficult time finding the right medications and dosages.  She had less frequent seizures during this time.  She lived alone and would have a seizure, sometimes falling down and causing herself injury.  Once she fell and broke her hip.  She spent about 40 days in the hospital that time as she had to have a hip replacement and after-care.  Still she wanted to live on her own at the farm.  The doctors thought it was ok, and my Mom convinced Grandma to get a Lifeline Medical Alert system with a panic button worn around her neck just in case something happened.  

The doctors finally settled on Phenobarbitol as the medication of choice.  She was to take 3 pills a day but I cannot recall how she was to take the pills or the strength of each pill.  We assume it was the drug that had very bad effects on my Grandma but again we don't know.  This once vibrant woman who baled her own hay until she was 70 just stopped living her life. She would sleep until noon, stay in her nightgown all day and watch TV in her recliner.  We tried to get her engaged in other activities but were unable to do so.  So we tried to get help from her primary care physician but nothing could convince him to get actively involved.  My mother and uncles met with him to ask for assistance on several occasions.  He would tell them to bring my Grandma into the office, which they did.  He would ask Grandma how she was doing and she'd say "fine".  He'd ask her a couple of questions about what year it was and that sort of thing and that was the end of the visit.  We tried to do an end run around the doctor by contacting the neurologist but he could/would not get involved without a referral that the primary care physician would not give.  We tried to seek help from a physician outside the Health Plan network that my Grandma was enrolled in but my Grandma refused because she didn't want to pay for it out of pocket.

This situation lasted for more than 8 years.  The accepters in the family were convinced that the doctor would act if there was something wrong with Grandma.  The questioners in the family, of which I am one, just kept questioning and worrying.  Grandma's decline was slow and steady.  She stopped driving which was a blessing because we were terrified she'd have an accident and hurt someone.  She sold the farm except for the one acre where her house stood. Her behavior at times was almost childlike.  She began hoarding things, any things, in her home.  Newspapers piled in two stacks almost to the ceiling.  She stopped cleaning the house.  She stopped bathing regularly.  She stopped cooking anything that required more than a microwave oven. She began relying on family members to run errands for her, such as grocery shopping and the like.  She did not leave her home unless it was dire necessity, not even for family holidays

Then we noticed she couldn't balance her checkbook anymore.    She couldn't keep track of utility bills.  Some utilities wouldn't be paid at all and some she would pay over and over again, sometimes paying the amount of a credit balance shown on the next statement.  My Grandmother grudgingly gave my mother power of attorney over her financial affairs and my Mom straightened out the mess and took over that end of things. All the while, every single time she had a doctor's appointment, we would beg for help from the doctor, always outside my Grandmother's hearing.  You see, she got upset when we mentioned these things to other people.  She thought we were being mean or wanted her "locked away in a home". There was never any help, never any diagnosis or real examination beyond those simple physical checkups.  As horrible as it sounds, some of us watched and waited for something bad to happen.  And it did.

My Grandmother called the doctor last November and told him she wanted to get off "that dope".  She was referring to her Phenobarbitol medication.  The primary care physician sent orders to the local hospital for blood work, and after the results came back he lowered the dosage to two pills per day instead of three.  I don't know how it happened but the neurologist was notified by the hospital that there was a change in the prescription/dosage and called my grandmother and told her she had to take those 3 pills per day for the rest of her life.  I do not know if the neurologist and the primary care physician communicated.  Regardless, the primary care physician stood by his decision and my grandmother was permitted to reduce her dosage.  And on Thanksgiving Day, less than a week after her dosage was lowered, she had a grand mal seizure at my uncle's home in the next county.  This, strangely, was another blessing.

So now we had a whole new group of doctors, a different hospital, and the opportunity to finally, finally! speak to someone outside her Health Plan network.  The family accepters, whom I do love dearly despite our differences in opinion, sat in the waiting room and waited for news.  The questioners chased nurses and doctors around the hospital trying desperately to communicate our concerns and, oh please!, get an accurate diagnosis.  And we did get it, well, sort of.  The neurologist who saw her did some testing one day and announced Grandma might have "a touch of Alzheimer's".  Oh Hallelujah!  I still don't know for certain that it is actually Alzheimer's, but I hope and hope that they ruled out everything else.

So my Granny again spent several days in the hospital and her medication/dosage was returned to what it had been for years.  She was also prescribed Aricept.  The doctors released her from the hospital and she was transported to a small private nursing home for continued physical therapy.  All those years of inactivity had taken its toll and Grandma's body was weak.  The staff evaluated her weekly and when they decided she could make no more progress they discharged her per Medicare/Health Plan requirements.  But, the physician stipulated that she absolutely could not go back to her residence alone because of its remote location, and the fact that he did not think she should try to walk up and down stairs anymore.  But otherwise he felt she could still live alone for a time. So the family scrambled.  Where were we to take her?  Everyone lives in a home with stairs.  I offered to take her to my home but the family decided against it because I have small children and Grandma doesn't deal well with all the noise.  Plus, she just doesn't like people fondling her 'things' and my children are definitely fondlers. The rest of the family works odd hours or has an untypical lifestyle that Grandma might not be comfortable with.  And any family members left, well, Grandma just didn't particularly like them or someone they lived with or were married to.  So were we to leave her in the nursing home and pay with her money and property until it was all gone and then let Medicare pick up the bill?  It didn't seem like a good choice.

With choices so limited, the family looked into Section 8 housing for the elderly that is available in my city.  The apartments are small but very nice, there's 24 hour security, and a maintenance man any time one needs assistance.  Plus, all those elderly ladies were so nice and so ready to welcome my Grandma into their community.  We mentioned the apartment to Grandma and she seemed ready to go.  But when we did finally move her in she told us all that she'd never forgive us for tricking her.  It was a very difficult time for everyone.

And now Grandma's decline seems to be picking up steam.  The past month or so has brought about remarkable and horribly sad changes. She never once has gone out of her apartment to meet the elderly ladies. She knows that I am related to her somehow but now she cannot remember exactly how it is so.  When people mention my name she has an image of me as a child in her mind.  She's beginning to forget a lot of things, people and things that have happened in her life.  She thinks my Grandfather who died in 1984 is still alive and is just always at work.  

She continues to live on her own but there is almost always someone else there.  She's not able to take medications on her own so I go every day to make sure she takes her pills.  I spend on average three hours a day with her, cleaning, cooking, coaxing her to eat something healthy, and just sitting in the same room while she watches TV.

As things are progressing now, I think Grandma will only have a few more months of independent living and then we will have to make the decision again where she should live.  I don't look forward to that time.  I spend most of my days feeling sad and angry.  I'm sad that these things have come to pass and I feel angry because I wonder if we couldn't have done something different to diagnose what was wrong with her and at the very least slow down this process.  I'm angry at the doctors.  Intellectually I know that there's probably nothing that can change the outcome.  Intellectually I know that I am the one suffering, not my grandmother.  She doesn't know the difference anymore.

But still I'm angry, you know.  Because I still don't know exactly what is wrong with Grandma. What caused these changes to her brain?  Is it Alzheimer's disease or some other dementia?  Did all those seizures wreck her brain? I don't know, and I don't think I ever will.

Tags: aging, family issues, Alzheimer's Disease, Dementia, Alzheimer's (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 49 comments

  •  Tip Jar (35+ / 0-)

    I'm on my way to Grandma's for an hour.  I'll be back then to check in.  

    It's been a long time since I actively participated here.  Life has just gotten in the way.  But it's good to be back.

  •  I Can Understand Your Anger - - (5+ / 0-)

    I have been in all of those places with my own mother.
    Please realize that there are no answers to this situation.
    For a society that demands quick resolutions to all things,
    Alzheimer's presents a formidible challenge.
    Give your grandmother the best care possible.
    Preserve for her as much independence as you can.
    Avoid challenging other members in your family.
    And - definitely - defer to the person who is the primary caregiver.
    She or he has many burdens and few rewards.
    Go visit your grandmother and try - just for one day -
    to avoid any and everything which might upset her.
    I have found that by simply looking at the sky or at the trees -
    Just looking at what is in front of me at the moment -
    That we found that momentary calm.
    It can be a gift.

    •  Thanks for your input (3+ / 0-)

      I don't think I ever expected a quick resolution of the situation, but after so many years of not understanding why we couldn't get anyone to look hard at my Grandma's history I definitely got angry.  

      The only time I've ever outright challenged a member of the family is when I thought my grandmother's health or safety were at serious risk.  There was no anger or harsh words involved in the discussion. Anyway, that resolved itself when everyone finally came to the understanding that we just couldn't with good conscience leave Granny to her own devices with a hope and a prayer that she'd be OK. She's in a safe place now.  And now, instead of my mother and I being solely responsible for day to day care, the rest of the family is pitching in.  And we sure do appreciate that.  

  •  So sorry (7+ / 0-)

    One of my grandmothers suffered from several strokes that gave her dementia over several years and finally killed her.  Technically she had congestive heart failure, but the strokes and the impaired blood flow to her brain gave her "multiple-infarct dementia" that looked a lot like Alzheimers.  We also had to trick her into moving in with us, and then into a nursing facility, and I just wish we had gotten a 'do not resucitate' order to spare her the last two years of it when she was terrified and incapacitated and didn't know where she was or who we were (and if that sounds like a hint, I'm afraid it is).  Very sad - she was also a very independent woman, grew up in Montana, had a degree in biology, did a lot of hunting and camping when she was younger.

    Wellbutrin is linked to seizures, by the way.  I'm sure you've read up on it, but here's one example.

    And repeated seizures can cause brain damage, at least I know from a family that had a child with epilepsy that this was the case, even if they didn't hit their heads on something during seizures.

    "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

    by sarac on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:30:01 AM PDT

    •  Seizures and, in rare cases, psychosis (7+ / 0-)

      I can't believe they didn't take her off the Wellbutrin right away and see if that cleared things up. Even if it was prior to the warnings and the later studies, seizures have been a known side effect since day one!

      No matter what, the first thing you do is find out what has changed recently, and remove that "item" to see if things improve.

      I'm so sorry about you grandma, Buckeye BattleCry. These things shouldn't have happened to her, or to your family.

      Is she still on the Wellbutrin after all these years? Can they get her off it?

      (Sometimes when reducing the dose of anti-seizure meds, people will have seizures as their bodies re-adjust to handling the chemical balancing.)

         
      I experienced a more rare side effect of Wellbutrin a few years ago, when I tried switching from another anti-depressant. (I'd been gaining weight (30-40lbs), and the doc suspected it was from my then (and current) a/d, so tried switching to Wellbutrin, which supposedly doesn't cause weight gain.) Within days I became paranoid, twitchy, cried all the time - it was fucking scary. I lasted a week before calling my doc and telling her I'd rather gain weight until I weighed 500lbs than spend one more day like that. I was switched back immediately. (Another few days and I'd have checked myself into a psych unit for observation.)

      Thing is, Wellbutrin works great for many people I know - but doctors (and patients) have GOT to watch the side effects, because not every med works (or works the same way) in different people.


      Those who say it cannot be done
      should not interrupt the person doing it.

      by Lashe on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:55:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, she did not take Wellbutrin again (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, AllisonInSeattle, Lashe

        ...after the first major seizure, but the seizures came again anytime she did not have the correct dosage of Phenobarbital.  

        •  It seems as if (5+ / 0-)

          the Wellbutrin can trigger that kind of thing in people who already were at risk for it - at least that's my impression.  It's not a very common side effect, but it's certainly listed.  

          Well, okay, here's my medical outrage with my grandmother's case - she had a pacemaker put in when she was in her 70s.  When she was about 80, she told us that her GP "tried turning it off" to "see what would happen" and she woke up on the floor with him and the nurse looking very shaken.  She kept going to him and resisted our trying to get her to a real cardiologist, she never questioned doctors.  But her problems began after that incident.  Typing that out, it's still very hard to believe, but she wasn't prone to paranoia or to making stuff up at the point in her life when she told us that...

          "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

          by sarac on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This sounds so familiar (10+ / 0-)

    Way back in the early 70s, they were just starting to give L-Dopa to people with Parkinson's, and my grandmother seemed like a good candidate.  She was otherwise healthy and she hadn't deteriorated much.  

    So they put her into the hospital (way back in the early 70s, they sometimes put people into the hospital before anything was wrong), and the next morning she got her first dosage.  

    My mother and I saw her that night.  She didn't know either of us.  She was seeing faces in pipes in the wall (there were no pipes) that were coming out to get her.  The nurses had beaten her and fed her a dead rabbit, she said, and there were horses outside the window, giant horses that would kill us all if they got in...

    Well, you get the picture.  

    Of course we wanted to see her doctor, but he was nowhere to be found, and since the nurses couldn't contact him, they had to follow the orders.  They kept giving her L-Dopa for two and a half days, until the doctor wandered by and changed the orders.  He was young; he hadn't yet learned that it's a bad idea to come by during visiting hours, and my mother and I pounced on him at the nurse's station.

    It was a shame, he said.  Most people were helped by the drug, but a small, a very small percentage, were made psychotic.  She might recover, she might not; there was no telling.  We'd have to wait and see.

    Within a week, she knew her own children again, but not her grandchildren, not her surroundings, or much of anything else.  And for the rest of her life they kept trying antipsychotic drugs, and every single one of them made her worse in a different, more heartbreaking way.  And she lived that way until 1986.

    "Republicans are poor losers and worse winners." - My grandmother, sometime in the early 1960s

    by escapee on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:30:06 AM PDT

    •  That is so sad (4+ / 0-)

      I can totally relate to the hallucinations.  Right after my Granny has had a seizure, she sleeps for a little while and when she wakes up she has hallucinations that last for a short time.  The hallucinations never seemed to frighten her but it was frightening for me to watch her experience it and talk about what she was seeing and feeling. Then I think after a while I detached emotionally and watched with a kind of curiosity.  The brain is amazing when it works properly and its even more astounding when it's misfiring.

    •  Oh my god (3+ / 0-)

      Which is what these doctors are playing.

      Look at me, I can change your life by scribbling something on this piece of pape. I get YOU to put these drugs in your body, and then I can watch the experiment, watch how you react.

      Be good to each other. It matters.

      by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:12:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't know if you will ever know what happened. (5+ / 0-)

    I assume that she was checked for blockages in her major blood vessels.  Carotid artery blockages can really impact a person's mental function.

    As for the future - I don't know.  What I do know is that her family should sit down and agree on an action plan for what to do as her condition declines(barring a miracle).  I watched my father-in-law torn between a desire to to keep his 90+ year old mother as independent as possible and the desire to make sure she had the care she needed.  Getting a patient into an assisted living or medical care facility is a time consuming process.  You don't want to be caught in the position of having a relative ready to be discharged from  the hospital but not able to return to the less restrictive and less supportive facility they were in.

    Now is the time to line up one or more facilities with higher levels of medical and functional support.  

    Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

    by Fabian on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:31:06 AM PDT

    •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, AllisonInSeattle, Fabian

      I appreciate your input.  It helps to have an idea how to get ready for the future.

      The family, thank heavens, hasn't had a major conflict since the incident on Thanksgiving.  After we found out that she couldn't take her meds on her own anymore it was pretty cut and dried that everyone would have to chip in and help with her care, and so far it's working out pretty well.  

    •  Uh, the idea of a family sitting down and (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Buckeye BattleCry, tryptamine

      agreeing might be a little rose-colored glasses.

      That's a common impossibility for most families -- too many different opinions. Sometimes radically different.

      Yes, been there, done that, tragically.

      Be good to each other. It matters.

      by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:13:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're absolutely right (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, AllisonInSeattle, Fabian

        There were people in my family that thought as long as my granny wasn't sitting at home soiling herself that she was OK alone all the time.  It was impossible not to challenge that.

        •  Yeah. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Buckeye BattleCry, Fabian

          My cousin told me about his wife's family when my one sibling and I were at odds about my mother's care. In that family, one elderly couple was on the farm where they'd lived all their life. Two kids thought they should stay, three thought they should move, so they had a deadlock.

          In our case, there were just two of us. I wanted her safe, he wanted her at home. (So he could pretend all was as it had been. Sigh.) Her environment wasn't clean. She wasn't clean. She wasn't interacting with other humans (not healthy). She was inviting strangers into her home and showing them around. Could we get more scary. Couldn't drive. Not cooking, living on breakfast cereal and ice cream. Couldn't do math. I could go on.

          She finally had a trip to the hospital, I was able to speak to the social worker, and give my side, request a "safety evaluation", which said (drum roll), that she could be left alone for 5 minutes.  That gave me the window to tell my brother to make out a written plan for her care at home 24/7, with levels of skills possessed by the caregivers, and then she could continue to stay there. It continued to the end with, when she was trying to die,  me fighting to stave off treatment that would possibly make her a bedfast vegetable. Fortunately one aunt also spoke up to that effect.

          My cousin's point was that no matter how many siblings/ deciders, agreement would likely be hard to reach. It helped me to feel less sorry for myself, to understand the situation was normal. It didn't help with how horrible the underlying situation was. (See my first diary for a response to her passing and our arguments leading up to it, she was passing away in a care home during the Schiavo mess, talk about adding to the emotional pressure.)

          Be good to each other. It matters.

          by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:42:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh you nailed it! Denial! (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            AllisonInSeattle, Fabian

            pretend all was as it had been

            So many members of my family had not personally witnessed Grandma having a seizure, had not witnessed Grandma's current living conditions, and had not witnessed the serious changes to her personality.  Because they had not seen with their own eyes they just couldn't comprehend that so much was different, and couldn't accept the bare truth that things were bad, very bad.  It took a huge family gathering with all adults present to see Grandma's hair nearly matted to her head because she wouldn't let anyone wash it, the funky smell of her unwashed body, her incoherent thoughts, and a terrifying grand mal seizure to get people on the same page.  And still there were holdouts who were convinced it was A-ok if she went two weeks or more without a bath because she was sedentary and didn't do anything to get dirty.  But they were in the minority, peripheral family members who wouldn't have gotten involved in her care anyway, and they were quickly outnumbered by that point.

            •  The family meeting is a very smart thing (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Buckeye BattleCry, Fabian

              Watched my mother do that wrt her sister, when her sister needed to go into a care facility. When the out-of-town relatives came into town, they could see how this vibrant, competant person had changed, and thus able to make the decision as a group. Rather than blaming my mom as a terrible person for making it alone.

              Be good to each other. It matters.

              by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:14:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Clarifying (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Buckeye BattleCry, Fabian

            "...spoke up to that effect" meant:

            When someone is attempting to die at age 92, having had a good life, loved, had children, accomplishments, etc. -- it's OK to let them go. It's not really good to make medical decisions that might leave them holding on to life by a thread, but not knowing surroundings or able to move.

            Be good to each other. It matters.

            by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:12:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree, totally (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Fabian

              My best friend's grandmother was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 88.  The doctors were ready to do surgery, start radiation and chemotherapy.  The grandmother did not want it, and the family agreed that such traumatic and aggressive treatment was not in her best interests.  She passed away very peacefully almost 3 years later.

          •  social workers are a mixed blessing (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Buckeye BattleCry

            I was asked by a friend of my elderly neighbor if I could make a call to social services.  Gertrude let very few people into her home and although I was on friendly terms with her, I wasn't one of them so I didn't realize that things were not well with her.  Gertrude's friend didn't want to "betray" her, so I ended up making the call.

            Gertrude was visited, promptly removed from her home and put into care until her son(Wash D.C.) could come to Columbus OH to take charge of her.  It was both comforting to me and a little frightening that the authorities could move so quickly.  

            Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

            by Fabian on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:41:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

        I meant as opposed to trying to make a family decision in the midst of, or just after a major health crisis.  In those instances, often the decision is left to one or two people, and that decision is criticized by others.

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:46:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Fabian

          I will make a point of suggesting that we start planning now for the future.  I think eventually Grandma will be going to a nursing home simply because the care needed will be beyond all of us.  There will be a lot of things to deal with, not the least of which will be guilt.  It's better to start coming to grips with it all now while the stress level is lower.

  •  This is very sad (6+ / 0-)

    I also went through a similar situation with a grandparent. To get an official diagnosis we went to a geriatric neurologist. The neurologist gave my grandmother a series of tests. One question asked her to remember 5(?) words at the beginning of the exam, and then asked her to remember the words at the end. There was also bloodwork and a physical exam to rule out other causes of dementia than Alzheimer's Disease. Her diagnosis listed the severity of her Alzheimer's.

    The funny thing for all the supposed memory loss she had, she was really very angry with the people who brought her to see the neurologist. The family refused the prescription of Aricept because no one was capable of getting her to take it.

    Towards the end of her life, she stayed in a single room at a nursing home. It was payed for with her assets. Most of the time she confused people. Those she remembered best were childhood friends.

    Good luck.

  •  Why Wellbutrin? (4+ / 0-)

    what was this supposed to do for her?

    "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

    by Superpole on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:34:14 AM PDT

    •  As I understand it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      She was given samples of Wellbutrin for her winter depression

      •  But that's not an answer (4+ / 0-)

        The person is asking, "Why chose Wellbutrin specifically". It's a heavy-duty drug.

        I'm asking, "Why give her a drug at all??"

        Be good to each other. It matters.

        by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:06:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, ok, I understand now (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          tryptamine

          I don't know why he gave her that specific drug.  I always supposed that it was just because he had some samples laying around and she said she was feeling depressed.  We never could get any good answers to those kinds of questions.  I could speculate that the answers never came because the hospital people and the gyno (he practices in that same hospital) were afraid we'd sue the pants off him.  But that was never the case.  All we wanted were answers, not a lawsuit

          •  I'm neither a doc nor an attorney, but I think (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Superpole

            that you're correct, that a malpractice suit is quite possible for a gyn practicing psychotherapy. I don't mean to say you should do it. But by being silent, they enable this to happen again and again.

            Why were the samples in his/her office? What sense does that make? What does a gyn know about who to give these to?

            There's a movie called "Big Bucks, Big Pharma". I've seen it.

            Maybe you could get it on Netflix. I encourage everyone to watch it. It's shocking. I have a well-informed overview of how this all works now, and it's pretty horrifying.

            Here's a clip.
            http://tinyurl.com/...

            Be good to each other. It matters.

            by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:06:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I had an Aunt who was finally diagnosed (7+ / 0-)

    with Alzheimers.  Before she crossed a line between sanity and insanity, she began to react to meds.  She was in the Hospital, a year before she actually started showing symptoms, and had a shot of Demerol.  She started seeing things that weren't there.  They blamed the demerol.  One thing I noticed early on was that she craved sweets.  That is all she wanted to eat.  My Aunt like your Granny wouldn't use the range either.  Microwave yes.  This does sound like Alzheimers and it starts slowly and gets progressive. My Aunt was heavyset but started walking continually and lost a lot of weight.  My Cousin would put clothes on the line to dry and my Aunt would go take them down again.  Its not your fault.  There is nothing you could have done to help or prevent this.  This is just the part of life that sucks.  Keep your memories of your Granny and remember them when times get rough, because they will. Good Luck.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:35:31 AM PDT

  •  There is an old saying... (12+ / 0-)

    ..that should be burned into every primary care physician's heart: "Don't pester the elderly".  As robust and strong as an older person may appear, the slowing of metabolic processes that accompanies years of living makes for a delicate situation when it comes to medications.  What would be a troublesome, but temporary adverse effect in a middle aged person can signal a terrible reversal of health in an older person.
     From your description, it appears that this may have happened to your grandmother.  Wellbutrin can cause seizures.  It is a very powerful medication, and it is not one that I personally would not prescribe for an elderly person with a mild-appearing depression.  Some physicians find it difficult to do "nothing" and feel like they must give a pill.  I personally do not have much faith in SSRI anti-depressants for mild depression, but that is a prejudice of mine that is not founded in the many (mainly industry-funded) drug studies that are out there.  This is one area where I believe my admittedly anectodal approach is superior.
     In your grandmother's case, it seems that the grand mal seizure that may or may not have been an adverse effect of Wellbutrin was the tipping event.  I have seen this all too often.  Then you add the awful life changes, the multiple hospitalizations, the myriad procedures, and uprooting a person from their familiar surroundings, and the downhill course goes on.
     I wish I had more encouraging words for you, but I have seen this happen too often.  I am proud of you for doing what you are to help your grandmother, it breaks my heart that this is happening to her.  Bless you.

    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

    by drchelo on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:43:58 AM PDT

    •  Thank you so much! (4+ / 0-)

      I know the gynecologist who gave her the medication meant well.  He's a very good gynecologist and I go to him myself for my annual girl stuff.  I always had a feeling that perhaps he just stepped outside his expertise in giving her the Wellbutrin samples.  Of course that is just me speculating. The only thing I felt angry about is that nobody even wanted to address the fact that Wellbutrin might have caused the seizures. It was like running into a brick wall over and over again.

      •  He definitely did (3+ / 0-)

        step outside his expertise.  A dear friend of mine has suffered from depression since high school, and I went through a year of severe depression some time back.  The expert advice is to never take drugs for depression without combining them with therapy, and with oversight by a mental health professional.  

        But almost everyone I know has been offered anti-anxiety or anti-depressant medications by nurse practitioners, general practitioners, etc etc.  When I hadn't yet been diagnoses with thyroid disease, a nurse gave me a prescription for Xanax, that gave me a surge of anxiety (those went right in the trash).  Anybody with a prescription pad can do it, but that doesn't mean they always should.  So yes, small comfort, but I think you were correct.

        "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

        by sarac on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:10:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Honestly, I don't think she was even that.... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          drchelo

          ...depressed.  She was bummed out that it was yucky outside for days and days on end that winter.  She just loved to be outside but when she got to be a certain age she wouldn't go around the farm when the ground was muddy because she was afraid she'd fall.  Of course I can't say for certain, but I believe a nice day and some springlike weather would've done the trick.

          Grandma was all about her feelings so if she was bummed out that day chances are she might've made it sound like the end of the world.

      •  I would consider reporting this person (0+ / 0-)

        I don't think it's an excuse to say, "So many docs are doing this these days, it's a fad, so they're just following along."

        Until the agencies that oversee docs get a flood of complaints about this type of irresponsible prescribing, there's zero chance that change will come about. I think we as consumers need to start the ball rolling. We need to be at least that proactive, that we voice our concerns.

        Have you had a sincere conversation with this doc, to let them know you hope they don't do this for someone else? If not, have they even considered it themselves?

        Be good to each other. It matters.

        by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:19:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think anyone considered reporting him (0+ / 0-)

          Maybe it was a misbegotten sense of respect for my Granny because she adored him.  

          He knows what he did though.  My Mom went to his office and, um, verbally chastised him.  And he just sat there and took it, so I dare to hope it had a positive effect.

    •  Really heartening to read, Doc C (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Buckeye BattleCry, Chinton, drchelo

      "Don't pester the elderly".  

      Good advice.

      There are a ton of natural remedies for mild depression, and on the other hand, what's wrong with having a little mild depression? As the diarist implies, lack of exercise and etc. in the winter, lack of sun, may trigger such. But the person will likely be fine again soon, and if it's a life-long cycle, with three seasons feeling peppy, one feeling not-so-peppy, where's the huge problem?

      In my opinion, one root cause is the drug industry on a huge marketing campaign to boost sales of these drugs. Why have samples of such drugs in every office?

      Be good to each other. It matters.

      by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:28:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My family had to live through (7+ / 0-)

    a long goodbye as well. My mother declined slowly over the course of many years. Alzheimer's disease stole her mind, her spirit, her personhood. It was the most challenging and difficult road I've ever had to travel, apart from my father's painful death from cancer.

    Find solace in very small pleasures. For a long time, before my mother lost even the most basic functioning, but after she could no longer recognize me, I found ways to share a smile and to be with her as best I could. For example, for some weird reason, she retained her musical memory long after she lost her ability to communicate much of anything, and we would sing together. It seemed she could follow the thread of a long loved melody, and it made her so happy.

    We finally had to place her in a nursing home, where she lingered for way too long, deteriorated into an empty husk, and suffered. It was heartbreaking, and a blessing when she was finally released into the beyond.

    Good luck, BB. I've been there, and know what you're going through.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:54:36 AM PDT

  •  Welbutrin (7+ / 0-)

    I had a bad experience with this drug.  My internist gave it to me a couple of years back when I was trying to deal with a lot of pain in my back.  Before too long, I felt like I was going a little crazy. The drug inpacted my personality, making me irritable and short-tempered. I also started sleeping a lot despite feeling very, very anxious most of the time.

    When I tried to stop the medication, I would start to feel like everything was going in slow motion.  It was a really bizarre sensation.

    After finally going to the internet, I found out that Wellbutrin messes not only with serotonin, but also dopamine. It's a powerful drug, yet doctors seem to be passing it out like candy.  I finally got off of it, but had to wean off of it very slowly. Even after I was off it, it took months for my brain to adjust.

    Good for you for being a questioner. I wish I had done more research before going on Welbutrin.

  •  What the HELL is a gyno doing giving out (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Buckeye BattleCry, sarac, tryptamine

    Wellbutrin?????

    Let's just start there.

    Just right there.

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:05:21 PM PDT

  •  Everyone else (3+ / 0-)

    has some good things to say about the medical side, but I'm worried about the family situation you describe as well.  I know, when my grandfather was diagnosed with Alzheimers (and even before, when we all began to see the symptoms), my family was always divided into two groups (the ones who faced it and the ones who wouldn't, in my case).  I wasn't close to my grandfather so my experience of it was mostly based in the family dynamics that it inspired, and it was painful for everyone to not only see someone they loved like that but then to also have to fight with each other over the simplest things.  

    My best advice is to listen to the people on the other side, too, since they are just dealing with it in their own way.  For you, it is obviously more reassuring to make sure you know exactly what's going on and try to make sure things are being handled as best they can be handled; to you, it seems like the best thing to do both for you and your grandmother.  But perhaps the 'acceptors' think it will be easier for them and your grandmother to just accept what the doctors say; perhaps they think that all your questioning will cause more problems than it will solve.  The most difficult thing is that either side could be right at any one point in time.  It sounds like you may have had some difficulty with the 'acceptors' (though maybe I'm just reading that in because of my own experiences) but I hope you and they can both recognize that you are all doing what you think is right and therefore band together to get your grandma the help she really needs.  

    Plus, if my experience is any indication, the rifts that are opened while the loved one is still alive only get worse once they have passed on.  I hope that isn't true in every case, and I hope you can avoid it yourself.

    I wish you and your grandmother the best of luck.

    "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

    by tryptamine on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:23:13 PM PDT

    •  Oh you bet there were family problems (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, AllisonInSeattle

      There were some real family problems especially early on, but it has mostly been resolved.  Luckily, we're not the stoic types and if there's a problem we're not likely to let it fester.  We definitely discuss issues.  So, for sure there were some heated discussions, but there was one thing that took care of all that--Grandma having a seizure and turning blue in the middle of the living room floor on Thanksgiving Day.  Sometimes life is so messed up.

  •  There's a wonderful book on dealing with (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Buckeye BattleCry, Fabian

    the aged with memory problems, Alzheimers or dementia.

    It's called "Once I Have Had My Tea" by Patricia Hladik. You may be past the stage where it would help, but it really helped me and my family deal with this for several relatives. It explains some concrete things that do / don't work

    It's out of print, but if you email me (in profile), I'd send you a copy.

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:20:25 PM PDT

    •  The senior center in town... (0+ / 0-)

      ...has a lending library with tons of books/pamphlets on Alzheimer's.  I'll see if I can find the title there, and if not I will certainly hit you up for it.  Thanks so much!

      •  It's not really a book, rather a pamphlet (0+ / 0-)

        I suspect they won't have it, do feel free.

        This reminds me I was going to get ahold of the author to see if she'd be willing to reprint it. I hope so.

        Anyway, please let me know if you don't find it. If so, you could give them a copy.

        Be good to each other. It matters.

        by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Jan 26, 2007 at 07:37:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Public Library, Research Librarian to guide you (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Buckeye BattleCry

    to reference material and how to find support groups, even online chat groups for people with same interests/questions as yours.

    If you don't have a good one in your area, try the NYPL.org website...I think they have an 'ask a librarian' feature.

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:34:11 PM PDT

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