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The Family Research Council is hosting a Values Voters Summit this weekend in Washington DC.  The results of the straw poll were just announced, and Romney eked out a narrow win over Mike Huckabee (among voters in attendance, Huckabee beat Romney by 40 percentage points).  

Over at Tapped, Kate Sheppard has been covering the convention:

I was certain Huckabee would come out on top. I wonder what sort of effect this will have on whether or not Dobson and friends run a third-party candidate? If the "values voters" folks are backing a front runner, seems much less likely.

Maybe, but I think she’s analyzing it from the perspective of electoral politics.  I’m sure that’s a consideration for the Dobsonites and their ilk, but I think it overlooks a more base motivation: the desire of fundamentalist Christians engaged in professional politics to keep open the financial spigots and prevent the faithful from giving up on funding their political (and patronage) operations.  

Years ago, while interviewing for a job with a labor union, I was brought in to the office of the union's local official.  It was a relatively small union, but the walls were covered with photos of the official with a who’s who of Democratic glitterati from Bill Clinton and Al Gore to Ted Kennedy to just about anyone who was anybody in Michigan politics.  When he entered the office and saw me looking at the photos, he told me he didn’t really care that much about any of those photos for his own ego, but it was important to his members to know that he had that kind of access to the politicians the union asked the members to support and to whom their PAC contributions were donated.  

The political fundies have traded on this kind of access with their donor base for years.  Take, for example, this convention: all the Republican nominees are in attendance.  All but one is essentially hewing to their party line on all cultural issues.  But Rudy Giuliani openly defies them on their line-in-the-sand issue, their steadfast opposition to retaining the right of a woman to chose to have an abortion.  

The political fundies have been able to go to their funding base—primarily small donors—and convince them that they were part of a vanguard to return our country to the fundamental Christian values and ways of life they believed prevailed in an earlier, idyllic America (which, btw, never really existed).  The country has continued to move further and further away from the fundie view of life on almost all matters.  Yes, the marriage amendments of 2004 were a setback for the acceptance and eventual full legal recognition of gays and lesbians.  But as I wrote in 2004:

Since the early 1990's the Supreme Court has upheld both Roe v Wade and the use of affirmative action in college admissions, and it struck down state sodomy laws.  More children attend day care than ever.  More women work out of the home than ever, and most of them prefer to work out of the home even if it's not necessary for maintaining their standard of living.  "Will and Grace" is mainstream, and "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" is on network television.  The social conservatives' crusade against the teaching of evolution has had little success.

Since then, several states have legalized gay marriage or same-sex civil unions.  And scandals involving Mark Foley and Larry Craig have exposed a Republican party that’s got some fairly serious issues with closeted homosexuals acting out in ways that have more to do with the hostility toward gays and lesbians within Republican politics than in society at large.  

Amidst all these evolutionary cultural trends, the political fundies have been able to trot out their close association with the Republican party as proof that they were going to one day be able to rally and direct the political will to turn these trends around, to legislate morality.  After Gerald Ford, every Republican nominee for President has pledged his fealty to overturning Roe v Wade.  Thus, the political fundies could always appeal to their base, essentially saying "we’re building political power, we’re going in the right direction, keep the money coming."  They could show their donors, just like that union official could show his members, that they had access, and that they had influence.  

But a Rudy Giuliani nomination would show them with nothing.  On their most important issue, abortion, they would have lost the ability to say that Republicans are clearly better than Democrats as a party, and that all their time dedicated to building the Republican party had been justified.  I can’t think of any other group that has a more fundamental issue that would feel greater failure or betrayal.  It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.  

So what would those donors do if Rudy Giuliani gets the nomination, and the fundies don’t have an alternative, like a third-party candidate such as Mike Huckabee?  My guess is that many of them would stop sending money to folks like Tony Perkins, and groups like the Family Research Council would have to lay off a bunch of people.  Donors would feel that all those years of working within the Republican party were for naught, that murder of innocent life—and most fundies, especially the rank-and-file worker bees of the movement, sincerely view abortion as murder—would continue on unabated.  So, they might figure, why continue to engage in politics?  

Or, they could pull out of the Republican coalition for this election, see the Republican lose (which they may be calculating is likely to happen regardless of whether they stay committed to the Republicans), and then say "see, we’re the reason you lost, and you need to come back to our position or you’ll never again win."  Then, in a few years, the donations pick back up, because they’ve re-exerted their coercive control and they’ll be back in positions of influence in the GOP and their organizations will be back in the money, thanks to their donors.  

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:29 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  love that title (21+ / 0-)

    it$ got $ubliminal me$$aging.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:31:42 PM PDT

    •  Thanks to You for the Links Via Email (12+ / 0-)

      Some of these posts I write feel like collaborative efforts...with all the grammar errors [and shoddy thinking] belonging to me, of course.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:33:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  your idea is sound (11+ / 0-)

        i would just have written about how bullshit crappy the NY Times political reporting is, and how desperate conservatives are that they're willing to re-look at McCain (except he did so poorly).

        The big loser is Thompson, the big winner is Huckabee. And none of it matters, because they are all going to lose.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:46:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What kind of F**KERY is this ??? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jackieca, MI Sooner, Judge Moonbox

          Screwing poor people out of money at their local jumbo-churches.

          Putting huge ugly posters of dead fetuses on their bulletin boards.

          Yeah, sorry, "unborn babies."

          You know what, I'll even grant that one. Soon as my kids got to kicking in the womb, they were "babies."

          And this is still 100% about money. FOLLOW THE MONEY.

          Absolutely. No one is gonna be forced to get an abortion. And no one should be forced to bear and unwanted kid.

          Thanks for the diary.

          Dixie Chicks and Amy Winehouse. Imus and Lenny Bruce. Overcome evil with good.

          by vets74 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:27:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  More than that... (7+ / 0-)

            Studies have shown that making abortion illegal does not reduce abortions...just makes them more dangerous for women seeking them.  If a woman decides to have an abortion, no law will stop them...except to make them get sick and die seeking an abortion or killing themselves or the baby after it is born.

            Sure there are stories of women who have regretted their abortions but just as many stories of women and parents abusing their unwanted children and in the extreme killing them.

          •  Focus on the Money. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vets74

            And this is still 100% about money. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
            Absolutely. No one is gonna be forced to get an abortion. And no one should be forced to bear and unwanted kid.

            I've heard that FotF is simply a big money making operation for Dobson. He covers his tracks well, so the IRS can't point a finger at the connection between a donation and the books sent the donors, but it's pretty clear that he has a business going there.

            It's an interesting prospect; that if the Republicans nominate Giuliani, the RR will see its donor base dry up. But in the long run, the GOP will eventually see their demands as DiyD-DiyDN and leave the RR behind. The Machiavelli in me wants to see it happen later.

            I've always had the suspicion that the left listens to Bush a lot more than his own administration ever did.-Babylonandon, Huffington Post.

            by Judge Moonbox on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:44:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  since you mention shoddy thinking... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moiv, MI Sooner, Judge Moonbox

        ...and not to pounce too greedily:

        I can’t think of any other group that has a more fundamental issue that would feel greater failure or betrayal.  It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.

        Really?  You "can't think of another group that would feel a greater failure or betrayal"?  Really?

        How about those naive folks right here in front of your essay, who thought the Democrats would be about salvaging our desecrated Constitution and extracting us from an immoral, illegal, debilitating war?

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi, 6/29/07.

        by nailbender on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:34:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and add to that: (0+ / 0-)

          another betrayed group:
          Gore supporters waiting for the other shoe to be stolen;
          and another:

          It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.

          Who can put up a graph showing the relationship between numbers of workers as a percentage of the workforce who work under a collective bargaining agreement over against the last 30 calender years.  I bet Clinton's term has the lowest number, probably including Bush's, and that you didn't realize what a nerve you struck.

          Your analogy stands amazingly well.

          "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi, 6/29/07.

          by nailbender on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 08:12:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I hadn't looked at the issue that way before (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf

      but you're probably right, the Christian right is getting ready to punt.

      "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert

      by InsultComicDog on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:34:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  sw33t (0+ / 0-)

      Born in Oklahoma Raised in Ohio Escaped to Meechigan!!!

      by MI Sooner on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:24:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those poor bigots. (5+ / 0-)

    Ignorance lost is a sad thing indeed.

    Basically it's all the action of the Marines with less accountability than carnys. - Rob Riggle on Blackwater

    by kitebro on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:33:51 PM PDT

  •  They Believe Pro Choice People are Like Nazis (18+ / 0-)

    Huckabee said that abortion was a holocaust. If that's what conservatives really believe, they simply cannot support Guliani for president. They will either have to vote for a third party candidate or sit out the election. That's good news for us that the Republican Party may break apart.

    •  It's true (6+ / 0-)

      If I felt something was like the Holocaust, I would feel obligated to fight it with every fiber of my being.

      "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert

      by InsultComicDog on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:36:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  However, (11+ / 0-)

        most of them couldn't justify why it is like the Holocaust, just that 'that guy over there' told me it was, and if I don't listen to people like him bad things might happen.

        And that's why they can be so hypocritical on the issue. Because they've never bothered to reason it out themselves, when they hit a point that it genuinely does impact them (14 year old daughter gets pregnant) they have no problem reasoning why choice is good for THEM, while denying it for everyone else, because that's what 'that guy' said and I don't need to reason for them since he's already done it for me.

        Generally, I've found these people to be nothing more than policy sociopaths. They can't see how the things they advocate affect others, only how they affect themselves.

        -6.00, -7.03
        "I want my people to be the most intolerant people in the world." - Jerry Falwell

        by johnsonwax on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:52:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I was driving up I-25 in Denver today (8+ / 0-)

      south to north and passed by a truck that evidently had one purpose: advertise against abortion on every available surface.

      "Planned Parenthood commits murder." [picture of sweet little child]

      "We don't want them to think we are eradicating the negro race - Margaret Sanger Founder of Planned Parenthood" [another picture of sweet child, this child African-American.

      Truck brought to you by Colorado for Life. Didn't see the other side. Passed it and gave it a one-digit salute.

      Nice waste of gasoline, douchebags.

    •  exactly (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dolphin777, MI Sooner, Judge Moonbox

      Especially the die hard Fundies. As I do know a few rather Conservative Evangelicals who are more tolerant about abortion ( as long as it is not them or their kids type..granted these people are rare but they exist ) and one old woman..who was a very fundie friend of my late mother's said..

      The older I get, I figure it is no one's business who loves who and who does what..I have enough problems with my own health and my own grandkids' issues.

      But these folks are few and far between. And people like the lady I quoted are mocked by their fellow fundies for not being more Anti Gay and screaming more about abortion.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:54:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fear of "The Turbaned Peril" trumps (3+ / 0-)

      the abortion issue. Rudy has simply to mouth some small conciliatory words to the nutjobs, and they will drop everything to support him.

      socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

      by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:54:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  iwas in Dachau Germany last year (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat

      Where the 'summer camp' is located.  walking through it on a cold rainy day one can feel the dred/saddness/etc.  you would never say the things that they say, if you had been there.  but then again, they have no soul.

      Born in Oklahoma Raised in Ohio Escaped to Meechigan!!!

      by MI Sooner on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:33:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dems could break apart too if the leadership (0+ / 0-)

      doesn't improve.

      It would take a few more years, but if we get a majority and this weak leadership persists, we may see a 4 party system.

      •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

        It's a winner take all system, so the laws of math and coalition politics push everyone in to two parties.  Other than 1948, every third party challenge pulled more from one than the other existing party.  

        Besides, this comment is an example of DKos-o-centic thinking.  People are disappointed with the Democrats for not ending the war, but they pin the blame for most of the country's problems on the Republicans, and every single indicator--party registration, candidate recruitment, fundraising, demographic and voting trends, measures of party intensity and satisfaction with the presidential primary candidates, polling--shows the Democrats in a very strong position for 2008.

        And no, comments at DKos complaining about the Democratic leadership are not an indicator of where things are likely headed for the 2008 election.  

        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

        by Dana Houle on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 08:11:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hope they do split (7+ / 0-)

    Let them split away from Rudy.  Make it an even more convincing defeat by the Democrat who is nominated.

    for political commentary, visit:
    http://www.politidose.com/

  •  That sounds about right (10+ / 0-)

    However, Giuliani is steadily losing ground in the race, and has dropped precipitously over the past month or so.  He's still the frontrunner, but may not be for long.  I think, ultimately, it's going to be Romney.  Thompson is a joke, Huckabee scares the Grover Norquist types because he's raised taxes, and the rest are pathetic also-rans.

    •  That's Why I Limited It... (7+ / 0-)

      ...to Giuliani.  I think he's the only one they wouldn't be able to stomach, and as long as it's not him, they're almost certain to stay in the fold.  

      I too think Romney is in a good spot, but really, they're all so weak and seriously flawed as primary candidates--to say nothing about general election candidates--that I'm not willing to make any big predictions.  Bu

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:42:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Will they believe Romney's conversion? (8+ / 0-)

        He's said an awful lot of "forbidden" things during his years in Massachusetts politics, and you wonder how many people will believe that he was just saying all that pro-gay, etc. stuff just to get elected in Massachusetts.

        I suspect that if he's the nominee, he'll be deemed Close Enough by most of the evangelicals, with some fraction put off by the whole Mormonism thing. Probably a small fraction, though.

        -dms

        Having trouble finding stuff on Daily Kos? This page has some handy hints and tricks.

        by dmsilev on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:45:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Mormon thing (5+ / 0-)

        The truly hardcore fundies won't be able to get past Romney's religion. They view the LDS Church as a cult, plain and simple, and most of them will say so quite openly. If it's Romney I would expect Dobson at best to withhold and endorsement but not bolt the party. Anything else might be viewed as selling out by the Dobsonites.

        I think they will have to work their asses off for Huckabee. Best case scenario for the Christian right is that they give him a good enough showing for the nominee to pretty much have to make Huckabee the VP selection.

        "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

        by AustinCynic on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:20:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why can't they stomach Giuliani? (7+ / 0-)

        He said he would appoint justices in the mold Scalia Alito and Thomas.  If he's going to do that, what difference would it make if he proclaims he's pro-choice?  Judge by they do, not what they say.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

        by Navy Vet Terp on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:28:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They'll stomach him (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Judge Moonbox

        I think he's the only one they wouldn't be able to stomach

        The religious conservatives will stomach him and vote for him, the same way the Dean supporters sucked it up and voted for kerry.  And dean would have been a much better candidate.

        Rudy's ace in the hole is that he goes on the attack all the time and knows how to get down and dirty with the press.

        The Republicans love a street fighter.  And even those who hate him have to acknowledge that he usually gives a lot more then he gets.

        I think Obama would be the best candidate for the democrats, but as a political junkie I have to admit that I'm excited by the prospect of Rudy vs Hillary debates -- it would be the  political version of Ali vs Frazier.

        I'm sure the press sees it that way too, which is why they seem to be anointing the two of them to help make it happen.

        "There's a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." -Stephen Wright

        by Bowa on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:29:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rick Perry sees it that way, too (0+ / 0-)

          and made his significant endorsement of Giuliani this week.

          Guns, gays and abortion notwithstanding, Gov. Rick Perry endorsed Rudy Giuliani on Wednesday and signed on as a national co-chairman of the former New York mayor's presidential campaign.

          [:::]

          For Mr. Giuliani, backing from Mr. Perry, a strong social conservative, could help convince reluctant family-values Republicans that he's their top choice for president. The former mayor has consistently led national polls of Republicans but has had trouble winning over social conservative voters who disagree with his stances in favor of abortion rights, civil unions for gay couples and gun control.

          [:::]

          The apparent hope is that conservatives will take a second look and ask themselves who can win the election, he said.

          Mr. Perry now has the opportunity to have the ear of a presidential candidate, and "Perry could have an influence on Giuliani," Mr. Baselice said.

          [:::]

          For some, the endorsement means that Mr. Perry has abandoned his political beliefs.

          "I'm confused. One of the most, if not the most conservative governor in Texas history, endorses a pro-choice, rabidly anti-Second Amendment, former NY mayor," said Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, a Texas co-chairman for former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson's campaign. "Whatever happened to conservative principles as the first measure of who to support for any office?"

          The fundamentalists are howling at the moon, but Perry is reaching for the stars.

          The TEA Fund: Practicing random acts of kindness to women

          by moiv on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:42:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Romney is an empty suit (5+ / 0-)

      He's almost strangled himself by shoving his own foot down his throat.

      Massachusetts Governor as a national standard bearer for the Repugs? Sorry. Romney's big appeal is big business; his 'record' on social issues is similar to Rudy's, except Romney can be clearly shown to change at the slightest opportunity. Mitt is smarmy and slimy, and offers nothing to feed the prime motivator for the right - fear.

      Rudy has got his issues with the social stuff, but his fear card trumps all comers.

      socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

      by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:52:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  good point (0+ / 0-)

      not sure Rudy can sustain his lead for much longer. Religious right thinks Thompson is a dud and I doubt Huckabee has the money and mojo to go the distance. That makes me think we should be watching out for Mitt but then again, the fundies will hold their nose to vote for a Mormon. As most fundie sects sees Mormons as part of a Cult.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:58:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No he's not (0+ / 0-)

      Giulini has been fairly stable in recent months.  In fact, all of the canidates have, even Thompshon-except Huckabee.  He's gaining fast, although is still in fifth place-and he worries the piss out of me.  He's easily thier best canidate for a whole number of reasons.

      http://www.pollster.com/...

  •  Good Analysis (5+ / 0-)

    Good analysis! I think Romney will be their go-to guy, even though he's a heretic Mormon.

  •  Excellent analysis. Except (6+ / 0-)

    Giuliani has vowed to deliver the SCOTUS to the fundies. And obviously, that's what really counts when it comes to Roe v. Wade - the SCOTUS, not the Presidency. So...

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:35:51 PM PDT

    •  But That's Hard to Sell to Donors... (7+ / 0-)

      ...who disdain science, complexity and ambiguity.  I think Giuliani is probably the scariest of the bunch, but he makes it hard for the fundie leaders to sell him to their base.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:39:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the way this is playing out (4+ / 0-)

        whether Giuliani intended it that way from the get-go or not, he's now threatening to go around the Dobsons and get their constituents' votes without their seal of approval. That's got to be just about the scariest thing that can happen from the perspective of the evangelical influence mongers.

        Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

        by brainwave on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:05:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree DH (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, jackieca

        as The Fundie base simply does not trust anyone who might who is not virulently anti gay, anti abortion to the point of screaming it  from the rooftops.

        Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

        by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:03:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But tough is easy to sell to donors ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caldonia

        With the undertone that you don't need a crusader king to be a saint, just whip the Infidel. I imagine that the whole Islamic jihad thing is very theological to fundamentalist Christians.

        The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

        by al Fubar on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:38:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Think to the Voters That Works (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Involuntary Exile

          But you don't need the Family Research Council to do that.  In fact, the Family Research Council is irrelevant to that, which is my point here, that there are institutional issues at play with Giuliani that help explain why the fundie players like Tony Perkins would be threatening to bolt over Rudy.

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:46:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Randolph06, dolphin777

    respectful discussion on a closely related subject getting started in this Diary.

  •  I doubt Guiliani would have trouble (0+ / 0-)

    fund raising, given wealthy repub circles tend to be more pro-choice anyways. Its all those worker bees sitting out that would really hurt.

    •  and the Fundies with Money (0+ / 0-)

      the Fundies with the money is where they lose support as there are plenty of Fundies who are sitting pretty financially.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:04:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Or they could nominate Huckabee (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pine, Geotpf, mcfly, Lefty Coaster, dolphin777

    for Veep.  If Guiliani is the nominee, he will need to make a nod to the far right wing, and Huckabee would be the logical choice.

  •  we should encourage them (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal, Faheyman, growingMajorityMN

    by talking up how much we respect rudy- he's so great on the 3 g's. and by ridiculing them for not having the principles to stand up for their espoused values.

    "you gotta pay yer dues if you wanna sing the blues, and you know it don't come easy" -richard starkey

    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:37:52 PM PDT

  •  If Hillary is nominated that will unite the GOP (7+ / 0-)

    no matter who their candidate turns out to be.

    "We would cause tyrants in the Middle East to laugh at our failed resolve" - G.W.Bush So we're staying in Iraq so Duhbya doesn't get laughed at?!

    by Lefty Coaster on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:40:01 PM PDT

    •  Tired (and Tiresome) Cliche (11+ / 0-)

      Abortion matters to these folks, as an electoral issue and as a movement-building and movement-sustaining issue.  Yes, many voters who are anti-choice wont' have a big problem voting for Giuliani.  But there are many who would, and they make up a big part of the activist core of the GOP, and spouting tired cliches like "Hillary will unite them" does nothing to seriously analyze the motivations of these people and the effect of a race where both parties nominate someone supportive of reproductive rights.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:45:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look at history (6+ / 0-)

        These idiots picketed Hillary's booksignings for "It Takes a Village" labeling her a communist who would strip children from their parents and put them in little re-education camps.

        Yes, their anti-abortion rhetoric will be part of their attack on Hillary. But they have a million bullets for their attack gun and they will use all of them.

        So, yes, Hillary will unite them.

        •  Thanks for Ignoring the Fact That... (7+ / 0-)

          ...if Giuliani wins that this would be the first time since abortion politics mattered that the GOP would nominate a pro-choice candidate.

          So, as one might say, look at the history, and realize that what previously appened with Hillary (or any other pro-choice Democrat who gets the nomination) might not matter as much this time.

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:52:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hasn't Rudy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            antifa, Lefty Coaster

            repudiated abortion, sort of?

            Won't that have to do, if their choice is sit out and be irrelevant and look impotent, grudgingly accept Rudy and exact promises from him about the Court and other stuff, or face the spectre of The Great Satan Hillary snatching babies out of the womb and out of their parents' arms?

            These people are single-minded, yes, but able to see their choices between Rather Bad and Horrible Beyond Measure and choose accordingly.

            •  does not matter (0+ / 0-)

              if you listen to Tony Perkins, Richard Land et all who have been on these cable news shows talking about how they cannot support Rudy but would seriously consider supporting a conservative third party choice...Dobson especially is behind this.

              Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

              by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:07:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

              Giuliani still is quite openly pro-choice, even though he is desperately trying to throw crumbs at the base by promising to nominate "conservative judges" and promote adoption.

        •  Hillary will certainly help the donations (5+ / 0-)

          She was, and remains, a powerful wolf-at-the-door figure that boosts their response rates.

        •  Any Democrat would unite them (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dougymi, inHI

          Hilary is a known, that's why they hate her.  Sic the attack dogs on another nominee, and the Fundees and the rest of the Republican base will join the whelping.

          "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

          by Navy Vet Terp on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:32:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I still say negative campaigns don't work (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DHinMI, wishingwell, mcfly

          The candidate in the general has to have some positive vision. Hating Hillary doesn't work. We hated bush in 2004 and see how well that worked? We hated reagan in '84 were united in our hatred, and that didn't work so well either. The party was pretty well unified in hating nixon in '72 too.  

          Hatred of Hillary isn't going to beat her, neither for Democrats in the primaries, nor for pubs in the General. It never works.

          A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

          by dougymi on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:40:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are amateurs at hate (4+ / 0-)

            The right wing nutjobs have the power of the almighty behind them .. they are experts.

            socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

            by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:48:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  not really the almighty (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dougymi, growingMajorityMN

              as there are many of us who believe that God is not a Republican or a Democrat but quite displeased about a lot of things and probably pissed off at Bush and friends right about now.

              Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

              by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:09:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  while I'll grant you that (0+ / 0-)

              they still had a lot of hate for Bill Clinton in '96 and it didn't help them. What passed for the conservatives hated FDR with a passion in 3 of his elections but lost big time in every one. In both cases the positive vision of both Clinton and FDR was greater than the hatred of the right.

              OTOH, no one hated Gerry Ford in '76 and we elected Carter on the basis of the hope and positive message he was preaching. Same with Clinton in '92. I didn't like bush the first much, but I really didn't hate him. It was hard to work up a good hate for the man.  Clinton (and also Perot) had a far more positive message to proclaim and it worked.

              A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

              by dougymi on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:05:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The Clintons are quite good at the negative stuff (0+ / 0-)

              And it does work, provided it's a two-way race.  It does not work in a multi-canidate primary.  What it does is it raises the attacker's negatives a little bit and the target's negatives a lot.  If there's only two canidates, the attacker gains, because thier negatives go up less than the target.  If there's three or more, both the attacker and the target lose, since both of thier negatives go up, meaning the other canidates gain.

              Moral of the story: Use negative campaigns, but only in one on one races.

        •  Indeed, logic has little to do with how these (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geotpf, blue vertigo

          extreme nutballs behave. Hatred for Hillary trumps everything, except fear and 9/11; they will not splinter - they will band together and vote for Rudy to try and stop Hillary.

          Rudy's appeal is at a gut level - he appeals to fear, which elicits a knee jerk reaction. He'll no doubt throw a few scraps to mollify some 'leaders' but they'll fall in line.

          There will be no 3rd party Xtian candidate.

          socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

          by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:47:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Rudy had pledged to give them the SCOTUS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue vertigo

        That's what these one issue zombies really care about.

        They'll hold their noses and vote for him.

        "We would cause tyrants in the Middle East to laugh at our failed resolve" - G.W.Bush So we're staying in Iraq so Duhbya doesn't get laughed at?!

        by Lefty Coaster on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:55:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No necessarily true. (7+ / 0-)

      My mother is a fundie, left the GOP in the last year or so, mainly because of Rudy and Bush.  She plans on supporting Obama, and voting straight "D" downticket, which she's never done before, btw.

      The only candidate who could make her change her mind on that is Al Gore.  I don't know why, but that anti-science meme runs pretty deep, so I assume that must be it.  She has no problems with any of the other D candidates, but she would vote R if Gore were our nominee.

      We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine

      And the machine is bleeding to death.

      by Marcus Tullius on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:45:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It isn't looking that way (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bythesea

      It is appearing that the religious right is going to peel off the republick party (h/t billPM) over the abortion issue. They aren't going to rally around the candidate and they will fall on their swords.

      It could be the margin that gives us a D win. Too bad if it's Hillary! but the CW that the base will rally to defeat her is not in evidence.

      Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

      by The Raven on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:10:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  GOP's been crying "Hillary Booga Booga!" for too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bythesea

      long now... it's getting old and tired.  And the more Hillary campaigns, the more American voters realize she is not a monster at all.

      She only needs 3 or 4 more % points tipped from negative to positive (in terms of voter attitudes toward her) and she'll win handily.  Even as it is today she'd probably win against Rudy or any of them, but it would be too close for comfort.  (And stealable yet again; we need at least a 3% margin of victory)

      •  The other Dems aren't weighted down w negatives (5+ / 0-)

        like Hillary is.

        Why on earth would we want to go with the candidate with the highest unfavorables? I don't get it.

        "We would cause tyrants in the Middle East to laugh at our failed resolve" - G.W.Bush So we're staying in Iraq so Duhbya doesn't get laughed at?!

        by Lefty Coaster on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:45:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Corporations (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, Lefty Coaster

          socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

          by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:48:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  on "unfavorables" (0+ / 0-)

          Most Americans are not following the 2008 race anywhere near as tightly as DailyKos members are, much less following actual polls showing candidates' "favorables/unfavorables."

          This is the political equivalent of insider sports talk about the Red Sox's stats, using lingo that regular baseball fans don't use, if they even know what it means.

          So when you say "why on earth would we want to go with the candidate with the highest unfavorables?" -- if you're referring to DailyKos members, that's one thing and I think the results speak for themselves (most DKos members are not in Hillary's camp for the primary but will vote Dem no matter what in the general election).  

          But if you're referring to the American voters in general as "we"... well, "we" (collectively) are not seeing the race that way, nor monitoring it so closely.  And in this context it is not surprising that Hillary is doing so well.  

          •  Not just Kossaks 48% view her unfavorably (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Geotpf

            Forty-eight percent of Americans have a favorable opinion of Clinton, while 48% have an unfavorable opinion. Only 4% don't have an opinion of Clinton, making her one of the nation's most well-recognized (and polarizing) political figures.

            http://www.gallup.com/...

            48% is big chunk of the electorate to concede to the Republican nominee, and a Hillary nomination will hurt lots of Dems down the ticket.

            "We would cause tyrants in the Middle East to laugh at our failed resolve" - G.W.Bush So we're staying in Iraq so Duhbya doesn't get laughed at?!

            by Lefty Coaster on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:59:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That number is now tainted by primary season - (0+ / 0-)

              Within that 48% "unfavorable" you have a large % of non-Democrats... and a smaller but significant % of Democrats who are strongly leaning Obama or Edwards (or other non-Clinton candidate) and will give an "unfavorable" answer to this question.  Even if they'd end up voting Dem in the general election, as most would.

              Those two groups are stacked together to comprise this 48%.

              Primary season has a way of skewing poll questions like this.  And it started very early, this time around.  

      •  I agree. We'll see how this latest story about (0+ / 0-)

        the donors goes.

        I think so much mud has been thrown at her (from not bathing in college to killing Vince Foster) that the public has a tin ear to it.

        If this story gets traction, then maybe something can stick. We'll see how she responds and how long it lasts.

        Also, if Rudy runs, I think there will be a lot of Republican women voting for Hillary. 24% might be high, but there could be significant defection.  He told the TV audience he was divorcing his wife before he told her and the kids.

  •  The impact down-ticket (0+ / 0-)

    is what worries me. If they bring out the single-issue voters in droves, they may get back the House and/or Senate.

    Basically it's all the action of the Marines with less accountability than carnys. - Rob Riggle on Blackwater

    by kitebro on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:40:01 PM PDT

  •  GOP is running far behind in money, the reason... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Garrett, davechen

    Major Republican donors aren't donating because they know they will be flushing money down the toilet.  What's the point in buying access if your people lose?

    As bad as the screwups are of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, and as disappointing as HRC is as a candidate, we will still win 2008 because the GOP is worse and their supporters are heavily disenfranchised.  

    The Seminole Democrat
    A blue voice calling from the deep red

    by SemDem on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:40:23 PM PDT

  •  I like your last paragraph (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, Crisitunity

    I'm beginning to become convinced that a fair number on the right wing wouldn't be devastated by a loss next fall. For the "national security" frothers, they get to hone their Dolchstosslegende narrative (and no, it doesn't matter what the hypothetical Democratic President does; the frothers will still scream), and as you say, the religious right gets to say to the GOP "you are nothing without us."

    Obviously, they'd prefer to win, but a lot of their narratives work better when they're in opposition.

    -dms

    Having trouble finding stuff on Daily Kos? This page has some handy hints and tricks.

    by dmsilev on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:42:21 PM PDT

    •  it's more advantageou$ to $cream about abortion (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, blue vertigo

      than have it over turned. Even Repubs admit that!
      Gotta have abortion to lure the base - and donation$.

      •  They already have the five on the Court (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moiv, wishingwell, annefrank

        Who will overturn Roe v. Wade.  Four are ultra-rightists ideologues who always vote together.  The so called middle justice, Kennedy, made it very clear this past term in Gonzales v. Carhart, in sickening paternalistic prose about who knows best for these stupid women, where he stands.  The only thing stopping them for next term is, as far as I know, there is no abortion case on the docket.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

        by Navy Vet Terp on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:43:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I totally agree (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geotpf, wishingwell, dougymi, Hapa Nagila

    I'm still fascinated by the fact that Republicans are not uniting behind Huckabee.  He's by far the best candidate they've got and I really don't want him to be the nominee, but I think he's the best choice they've got and yet still they waver between lightweights like Romney and Rudy.  

    I'm not complaining, but what is wrong with these people?

    •  He doesn't believe in evolution (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pine, dougymi, blue vertigo

      I don't know why people here are so scared of him.  Big money donors, wall street, and the DC establishment can't trust a guy like that, which is why Huckabee will stay in the bottom.  

      "There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always." -- Mahatma Gandhi

      by duha on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:08:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We know that here (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, blue vertigo, Hapa Nagila

        To the average general election voter, the GOP might be able to sell Huckabee as a fresh "outside" face, conservative but not doctrinaire (since he raised taxes in Arkansas), and someone who leads by example (losing weight and campaigning against child obesity). Hell, it worked for Bush the first time, or at least it worked well enough that he could steal the 2000 election.

        We'd know Huckabee's just as nuts as the rest of the field, but it would take a hard fight to spread that message to the general public.

        "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

        by AustinCynic on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:28:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geotpf

          I blogged about this a few days ago-- Huckabee scares me because I know exactly who he is and what he stands for and yet, when I see him in interviews, I find myself wanting to like him.  If I find myself wanting to like him, people who don't know as much about him as I do will find it very easy to just think he's a good guy.

      •  agreed (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, wishingwell, Randolph06, duha

        The reason that Huckabee hasn't (and won't) catch on is that he's an open book about his theocratic beliefs. The corpartist wing of the GOP prefers that candidates whitewash such beliefs by speaking to the religious right in code (e.g., Bush's "Dred Scott" reference in the second debate with Kerry in 2004).

        As for why Huckabee scares some people here, I think it's because of his disarming style. Despite having downright scary beliefs, he comes across as a charming speaker and has been able to peel off a few moderates that way. One of my co-workers (a moderate Republican woman) is doing some volunteer work for him, because she thinks he passes the "kind of guy you'd want as your neighbor" test better than McCain, Guiliani, or Romney.

    •  The only thing that motivates these people is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell

      fear .. Rudy is the perfect candidate, a mass receptacle for fear.

      It used to be fear of commies, then fear of beatniks, now it's fear of 'terraists'. To have a Great Crusade, one must have fear. Rudy is the poster boy of fear.

      Fear trumps every thing for these folks.
      They'll cave and support Rudy.

      socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

      by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:39:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  taxes (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf, wishingwell

      the club for growth types who control the big money don't like huckabee because he's raised taxes in the past. I think he refused to sign their no tax pledge this time too, but I'm not sure about that. The grover norquist wing of the pub party (which basically controls all) don't trust him.

      A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

      by dougymi on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:46:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another great piece. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaintyKat, SadTexan, bythesea

    You went staight to the root of a subject that many have attempted to write about and could not nail.

    You patched all the holes and sewed it up like I have not witnessed in any other piece on Christian voter trends.

    I will cheer when you patch up that piece of swiss cheese called Bush authoritarianism that others have criticized you for "plagerizing". (I recognize how difficult and mutifaceted that subject has been for even such as John Dean) We have watched you lay the groundwork for what I am sure will be a great piece of writing that will shut your yammering  critics up even if it is half the story this one was.

    Kudos DH...I like reading great writing.

    Hotlisted

    Tu es responsable de ta rose Le Petit Prince

    by Brahman Colorado on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:44:04 PM PDT

  •  And then... (0+ / 0-)

    So, they might figure, why continue to engage in politics?

    They start wearing explosive vests on their way to heaven.

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:47:13 PM PDT

    •  With all respect, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat

      that's unfair.

      •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

        There is no difference between them other than the name they call their god. Gimme some indication otherwise? I grew up among them.

        The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

        by NCrefugee on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:53:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You almost have that right (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Hannibal

      Those explosive vests are the ones they gladly place on the elderly, the poor, children as they abandon them to suffer their fates in the 'Mkrn' economic grinder. They'll gladly strap those vests onto our people fighting 'terra', in the name of The Great Crusade against the infidels.  

      But you won't find them strapping the belts on themselves.

      They believe in vicarious rapture.

      socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

      by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:37:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Vicarious Rapture (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell

        That seems kind of like a groom letting his best man stand in for him on his wedding night. Dominionists make it so hard to respect them.

        "If that man had an enema, he could've been buried in a matchbox." - Christopher Hitchens, referring to Jerry Falwell

        by Hannibal on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:49:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  So Fucking Correct it brings actual tears to my (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell

    eyes. Although the Labor Pictures-on-the-Walls reminiscence is now allowing me to use a Kleenex.

    I came in peace, seeking only gold and slaves

    by revenant on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:50:01 PM PDT

  •  Fundies not supporting Col. Klink? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jackieca, wishingwell, bythesea

    Boo Hoo.

    I think, therefore I am, I think.

    by mcmom on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:50:29 PM PDT

  •  Yound Christian Conservatives Think Differently (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SadTexan

    See Christian Dem in NC's diary and check out this CBS poll for an updated perspective on this demographic.

    Not the same re-born who voted in 2000 and 2004.

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:52:45 PM PDT

    •  "Born Again" Isn't the Same As Family Research... (5+ / 0-)

      ...Council members, the people who write in to Ford complaining about gay advertising, etc.  For instance, "born again Christians" probably includes a lot of African Americans, and those voters are definitely not part of the FRC.  I'm not talking about Christians or Evangelical Christians, I'm talking about the conservative activists affiliated with overtly Christian groups tied to the GOP.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:55:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wise To Focus Attention Less (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        campskunk

        on the FRC Christians, no longer the "swing vote" in the Republican Party, and notice the looming new demographic in the Christian-type voter in the Republican Party who is, and who far outnumber them, highly vocal minority though they may be.

        They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

        by Limelite on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:02:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  that is interesting Limelite (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf

      Evangelical Issues Change
      The GOP might lose its lock on evangelical voters as issues like gay marriage and abortion fall in priority to global poverty and climate change. Katie Couric reports.

      From the CBS.com website article..

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:34:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  next post on TAPPED: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmo, annefrank

    The results they announced in the general session are actually the sum of both the online poll of Family Research Council Action members, and the representatives gathered here today. Only 1,537 votes were cast manually on-site, and another 600 or so of the people in attendance at the summit voted online as well.........Among the voters who voter in-person, Mike Huckabee got a whopping 51.26 percent of the vote. Romney, who won the overall vote, got only 10.4 percent of the on-site votes. The others didn't even break out of the single digits.

    LINK

    so, "up-close and personal"  had an effect on the people in attendance.

  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NCrefugee, Geotpf, wishingwell

    A lot of the fundies have to also be wondering why, when the republicans were in the majority for as long as they were, and with total control until 2006, that none of the rollbacks they seek were accomplished.

    Why give money now when as the minority they will accomplish even less?

    It's very true that a lot of the winger narrative works better when they are outside of power.

    I would note that a certain number of the fundies will vote for Rudy because there is a segment for which authoritarianism will override anti-abortionism.

    "Politics is the entertainment branch of big industry." Frank Zappa Frank Zappa

    by whitewidow on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 03:55:45 PM PDT

    •  Correct (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell

      I would note that a certain number of the fundies will vote for Rudy because there is a segment for which authoritarianism will override anti-abortionism.

      Everyone still underestimates the fact that "All Christians are not authoritarians, but all authoritarians are Christian".

      The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

      by NCrefugee on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:03:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  DHinMI - you're copying me! (0+ / 0-)

    LOL - $ee how much ea$ier writing i$ with $ $igns.

  •  If Rudy wins without them (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duha, bythesea, timbuck, Calouste

    then they are really, really screwed. They would rather see another President Clinton than a President Rudy.

  •  They won't back a third party candidate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Randolph06, Calouste

    and risk exposing how little support they really have.

    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothing new to say---New Speedway Boogie (Grateful Dead)

    by jhecht on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:08:40 PM PDT

    •  I dunno (4+ / 0-)

      A lot of these people truly think that everyone thinks like them. They get ensconced in their insular little world, secure in their echo chamber. They never hear any opinion that disagrees with theirs and if they do, it's easy for them to dismiss.

      The fundamentalist right true believers may honestly think they could back a third party candidate and sweep to victory. And if they don't, it would fit into their narrative of being a persecuted minority in a sinful country.

      "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

      by AustinCynic on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:01:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree Austin (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, bythesea, Mike Taylor

        and if their candidate wins, they will take credit.
        If a Democrat wins the WH, they will say the Republicans lost because the religious right did not support them.

        Ie these hard right religious folks will take credit for a win if they support the candidate but they will also take credit for a loss, saying the Republican candidate failed to win because they failed to get Fundie votes.

        Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

        by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:38:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're only wrong on one point, wishingwell (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geotpf

          The hard right zealots would say that God caused the Republicans to lose because they wouldn't listen to the devout.

          "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

          by AustinCynic on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:35:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  nah (0+ / 0-)

            We get around that by having elections. From their viewpoint God has to stay hands off (free will and all).

            Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -4.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

            by bythesea on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 11:15:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Christianity and free will (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bythesea

              At the risk of sparking a discussion that probably truly belongs on Street Prophets (or overanalyzing a snarky comment), among Christian denominations there is free will and then there is free will. I would be willing to bet that the really hardline fundamentalist groups that have a very harsh, Calvinist-based theology have a much more restrictive view of free will than say, Catholics or Episcopalians.

              As a Christian I believe that God takes an active role in human affairs, but these folks go for the full-on, finger reaching down from heaven sending a bolt of lightning Old Testament style intervention.

              "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

              by AustinCynic on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 08:37:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes good point (0+ / 0-)

                but the fundies I grew up around in the South were overwhelmingly not Calvinists.  In fact the only ones I knew of were the tiny percentage of fundies in my community that were Primitive Baptists, and even many of them were not despite it being the doctrine of their church.  Also not many Evangelicals seem to be Calvinist, though there are always exceptions.

                Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -4.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

                by bythesea on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 01:08:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  ah yes (0+ / 0-)

            so true Austin

            Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

            by wishingwell on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 07:42:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Their afterlives are in jeopardy. (0+ / 0-)

      Evangelical followers have been programmed by the republican party for decades that they must "reaffirm their faith at the polls." That's why they have all always turned out for elections, and that's why they can't just "lay out" in '08. Evangelical followers truly believe in a revisionist history that rejects separation of church and state and they truly believe they will go to Hell if they don't "reaffirm their faith at the polls."
      If they don't back a third party, they will go to the polls and write someone in.

  •  They don't matter that much... (0+ / 0-)

    the problem with portraying the fundagelicals as deal breakers here is that if Rudy were to be nominated, he would actually put areas in play that they wouldn't otherwise get with a fundie candidate. You can say sure, he would somewhat depress the GOP vote in some states, but in a place like Mississippi where Bush got 65% of the vote, a 5% depression rate would be peanuts and they would still carry the state. Rudy puts some northeastern and midwestern states at play and that may be why he's not really worried so much about the hardcore base.

    "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

    by michael1104 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:20:36 PM PDT

  •  Romney shows the most willingness to dance with (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, bythesea

    the Fundies.  Look for that to pay off, and for the race to coalesce around Rudy vs Mitt in the coming months.

    I'd love it if it were a bitter, nasty fight (always possible with Giuliani)... thus filling the Fundies with increased disgust toward Rudy.

  •  fundos are cognitive dissonance poster kids (0+ / 0-)

    it won't take anything but a dopey lie to make them continue to believe what they have been made to believe.

    These are the kind of people Festinger originally wrote about, if you recall..."flying saucer is coming to take us away" types.

    fouls, excesses and immoderate behaviors will not be ignored at Over the line, Smokey!.

    by seesdifferent on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:27:45 PM PDT

  •  if i were a chrisian . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jackieca

    i'd pray - pray that dobson and his foolish clowns fracture the republican party forfuckingever.

  •  Fear and "9/11" trumps everything (0+ / 0-)

    Rudy will prove it.

    All he has to do is throw table scraps at them, and they will slobber all over 'Mrka's Terra Mayor' ..  

    socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

    by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:32:07 PM PDT

    •  it depends (0+ / 0-)

      as not all right wing fundies are the same.( while many march lockstep ..I think there is a split among the rightwinger religious segment....some will go for Fear, Fear and more Fear Rudy but some of the one issue fundies will follow Dobson away from Rudy and to a third party candidate or stay home.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:41:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The sucker at the table (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geotpf

    Like the old expression in poker that says "if you don't know who the sucker at the table is, it's you", the religious right was invited to the table years ago  by the Republican party and they have been played like patsies ever since.

    The Republicans let them win a hand here and there to make them think they are doing ok and are still in the game, but in the end they are only there to milk money from.

    After all of the recent scandals one has to wonder if they are having second thoughts about playing with those friendly guys that invited them to the table.

    •  I think greed from the fundamentalist (0+ / 0-)

      Christians trumps any of the scandals.  They just go right on and blame it on Bill Clinton and repeat "send your cards and letters with the money."

      It will be interesting to see how this does play out because the GOP is almost neutralized without the fundamentalists.

      Some states have reported GOP legislators moving to the Democratic party because they can't handle the Bush politics and what it has done to their once proud party.

      PaintyKat

      WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

      by PaintyKat on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 10:47:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  maybe it is just me, but i think that everytime (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jackieca

    one of these repub candidates slobbers and panders to these nuts, he further seals his fate to lose in the general election. they look so pathetic and foolish.

  •  Dont be fooled. Right wing will vote for Giuliani (6+ / 0-)

    The right wing, religious and corporate, will be voting early and often for Giuliani and be happy to do it.

    All the "Rudy's too liberal" is no different than the anti-Clinton "Hillary's too right wing" chorus we see here.  Just as those whose hair is on fire now against Hillary will be voting for her, those who have sworn in their mega-church that Rudy is the liberal devil will be turning out to vote for Rudy, scripture in hand on how he's their god's chosen.

    Moderates and liberals can't get complacent that the right wing will not turn out big.  The right wing theocrats will demonize whomever the Democratic candidate is in order to make up for the lack of halo on Rudy.

    •  exactly correct (0+ / 0-)

      I work with fundies, and they'll gladly hold their nose and vote for Rudy .. he's a "hero", don't cha know.

      socialist democratic progressive pragmatic idealist with a small d.

      by shpilk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:01:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not correct, i don't think (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf

        the movement is not monolithic and on the whole they don't like their choices.

        Leaders can't simply order unmotivated troops. Some will vote for Rudy, some will stay home.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:24:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And Even If They Vote for Him... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geotpf

          ...it's not the same as saying they'll canvass four weekends in a row and take off two days to do GOTV.  These groups don't deliver all that many votes, but as you know but I think some on here aren't recognizing, they do represent important swaths of the activist base of the GOP.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:53:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  not the one issue religious folks (0+ / 0-)

        Those whose main and only issue is abortion with anti gay rights second will not vote for Rudy is what I am hearing and what Dobson and Land are saying..I guess it depends on how strong that person is linked into marching lockstep with the leaders of their church who might oppose Rudy.

        Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

        by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:43:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There is a reason why The Church went with (0+ / 0-)

        Franco in Spain. The reasoning will be similar here.

        "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

        by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:57:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fooled? (0+ / 0-)

      Where did I say or imply I was talking about "voters" instead of discussing the dynamics of intitutional players like the Family Research Council?

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:51:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Republicans Depend On the Status Quo.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geotpf

    ...as far as abortion is concerned..

    **

    What Happens If Roe Is Overturned?
    Boston Globe |  
    November 14, 2004

    ...Technically, nothing would prevent the US Congress from getting in on the act. "The most extreme thing imaginable," says Roger Evans, a lawyer with Planned Parenthood, "is that the Congress goes kind of hog-wild and enacts laws to prohibit abortion across the country."

    Such a bill, however, would only make clear to everyone what's widely acknowledged among pollsters who follow the issue: that overturning Roe would decimate the Republican Party. According to Karlyn Bowman, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute who has looked at poll data going back to Roe, the country has had a remarkably consistent pro-choice majority for 30 years. How big depends on how the question is asked, but in a Gallup poll early last year, 66 percent said abortion should be "generally legal" in the first trimester, 25 percent in the second trimester, and 10 percent in the third trimester. And it's a durable majority, says Bowman. "There's remarkable internal consistency on the polls, the numbers just do not move."

    Nor can this majority opinion be seen as simply a product of the Supreme Court's imprimatur, and one that would therefore erode if the Court reversed itself. In a Gallup poll taken a year before Roe was decided, 64 percent of Americans said they thought the decision to have an abortion should be between a woman and her doctor.

    As for the Republican Party, Ann Stone, chairman and founder of Republicans for Choice, says, only half in jest, "There would be revolution in the streets! I've said that to [Karl] Rove to his face, and I think he believes it." With Roe in the judicial dustbin, arguments against abortion could no longer be couched in the language of state's rights and judicial activism that Bush used on the campaign trail. In all likelihood, the party would have to make good on the commitment, enshrined in its platform, to outlaw abortion.

    This prospect would divide the Republican Party's moderate and conservative wings in a way that nothing else could. According to a Pew Research Poll conducted early this year, 43 percent of Republicans opposed "making it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion." (Democrats, incidentally, are much more united on the issue; in the same poll only 23 percent favored making it more difficult for a woman to obtain an abortion.)

    Not all of these Republicans would be willing to desert their party over the issue, but enough of them would to make the difference in a closely divided electorate. As Zogby puts it, "This could induce a walkout of pro-choice Republicans, as well as soccer moms, security moms, and other sort of moderate, on-the-fence voters.

    None of which can much appeal to Republican strategists who have grown comfortable with the current arrangement of at once blaming and relying on the court for legalized abortion.

    .

    "Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass." ------Barry Goldwater

    by chicagorich on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:51:22 PM PDT

  •  Its like a hawkish Dem nominee ? (0+ / 0-)

    I can’t think of any other group that has a more fundamental issue that would feel greater failure or betrayal.  It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.

    Or a hawkish dem nominee who believes in kicking the base (triangualtion).

    But then, we are used to that.

    US Senate votes for War With Iran. Shame on you Dems.

    by nataraj on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 04:55:10 PM PDT

  •  Is Mike Huckabee Gomer Pyle? (5+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure, but I think he is.  You know, I'm having fun (for the first time in so many years) watching Dobson, Perkins and all of the rest of these zealots squirm like the worms they are. I'm happy to see Giuliani spitting in their punch bowl.  I am actually gleeful watching this "Jesus Loves You, But Everyone Else Thinks Your An Asshole," smile that Giuliani is giving them.

    How about this for a Democratic Bumper Sticker:

     OUR GOD LOVES EVERYONE

    How dare they trample on the Constitution, how dare they inject themselves into our political system. The more self-righteous they are the more perverted they seem to be.  

    I'm having fun watching all of the candidates act like the Whores they really are. Sucking up to these people, is just what they deserve, and yes, of course its about the MONEY....its always about the money.

    I would be tickled pink, throwing a party, yelling from the top of my roof, thrilled to see Guiliana get the nomination, and watch, as these religious Nazi's throw in their man, Mike Huckabee/Gomer Pyle.  This would be my idea of "a great day in America."

    It reminds me of what my dad used to say to us, as I would say to the Religious Right:  "Hey, don't go away mad, just go away.!!!!"

    Badabing

    •  Gomer couldn't rock. He sang gospel n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

      by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:56:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Frankly I never heard of Dobson (0+ / 0-)

        ....before he came out against Giuliani in such a big way.  And I've been following politics for many years.  I mean everyone has heard of Falwell and Robertson, but Dobson -- he was never a player until now.  And I think that is more because he is a creation of the media then for any real influence he has over a bloc of votes.  

        "There's a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." -Stephen Wright

        by Bowa on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:20:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dobson has been a player for years. He hasn't (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geotpf, bythesea

          been featured as much in the MSM, but then he hasn't wanted to be. His show is one of the most widely listened to Christian shows in the U.S.

          You ever hear of Chuck Swindoll? They fly under the radar, but they are out there - and powerful.

          "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

          by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:31:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  His show is one of the most widely listened (0+ / 0-)

            Well, for Christian shows I love Joyce Meyer, who is all about self improvement.  I'm from the Philly area and no I never heard of Chuch Swindoll, nor had I heard of Dobson before he went after Giuliani.

            And really, what proof do you have that they are so powerful that they control this bloc of voters?

            So far, that's what the MSM has been telling me -- but why should I believe them?

            frankly, in my mind, the MSM is just trying to generate heat over this narrative and they have anointed Dobson as one of the players -- but every time I have seen Giuliani speak to social conservatives, he not only gets a warm reception he gets plenty of applause.

            So forgive me if I don't just accept the idea that "values voters" will stay home if Rudy is the candidate and hand the election to Hillary or Obama.

            "There's a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." -Stephen Wright

            by Bowa on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:43:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, I don't think they'll stay home, unless (0+ / 0-)

              there is a wide ranging concerted effort by evangelical leadership to do so. If anything, they will convince those members that don't want to vote for Rudy or Mitt to do so.

              That will be their power. Not in keeping the vote away, but helping it turn our once again.

              And yet another chapter to add to the What's the Matter with Kansas?

              "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

              by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:49:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  re. what's the matter with Kanasas (0+ / 0-)

                When Democrats stop denigrating Kansans and all red state America then Democrats will get more votes.

                Would you vote for a party that called you stupid all the time?

                "There's a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." -Stephen Wright

                by Bowa on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:20:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Have you read the piece? What would you (0+ / 0-)

                  call someone that voted against their own interests because of what two people whom they don't know want to do that will in no way affect them?

                  The point of the essay is not to call someone stupid, but to point out that the GOP is playing them for the saps they are.

                  "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

                  by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:23:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Saps (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Spud1

                    You prove my point.  For a party that prides itself on inclusiveness, it too often thinks nothing dismissing and denigrating 50% of the population.  I wouldn't vote for someone who thought I was a sap.  Would you?  You can win more friends with honey then you can with vinegar.  And there is no reason why democrats can't make their case to red State America without being condescending.

                    "There's a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." -Stephen Wright

                    by Bowa on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:50:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But I'm not making my case to Red State (0+ / 0-)

                      America - I'm making it to you.

                      "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

                      by Spud1 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:56:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  I am sure Dobson is cracking nuts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jackieca, wishingwell, bythesea

    between his ass cheeks since Brownback dropped out.

    When Brownback drops out next year, that should be a hoot too.

    We have waited long to get the religious nutters out of politics, and it looks like we won't have to wait much longer. I just hope there is some country left when they are gone.

    We are one people, one planet, one life, one love - love everyone.

    by Captain Janeway on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:08:29 PM PDT

  •  Dems have opportunity with these voters but (0+ / 0-)

    not with Clinton.  Its not the reason I personally support Obama but I believe Obama can speak to those voters like no other modern Democratic candidate because he has a story of salvation and that is a very important thing for those "people of faith" voters.  We all know the story:  As a teenager, he was angry, used drugs, didn't believe.  He was not brought up in religion.  But when he saw the impact of religion in people's lives, he got religion.  He came to religion, embraced it.  

    That kind of story was very important in Bush's appeal to those voters.  I don't know if John Edwards can tell that kind of story but Hillary Clinton's phrasing of her "faith" is that she's always had it.  Those voters were skeptical of Bill Clinton even though he toted that humongous Bible to church every Sunday and did prayer breakfasts.  

    If the Republicans nominate Romney or Giuliani, that too would help Obama.  Both Mormonism and Catholicism have "one true faith" dogmas and people from other religions are wary of that.  Giuliani probably can't say much about religion at all.  

    •  you make a good point Lois (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lois

      I think both Edwards and Obama would seem more authentic in regards to their faith..my guess is that they are more comfortable discussing it.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:45:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A lot of Republicans ... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, Geotpf, Caldonia, mon

    Are basically throwing in on 2008, figuring that Hillary the Democrat will win. They're banking on the Bush shitstorm dragging her down, and coming back in 2012.

    This works out pretty well for the religious right to sit on the sidelines, then say "we told you so."

    The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

    by al Fubar on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:22:12 PM PDT

    •  I heard a few on CSPAN (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf, jackieca

      and a few even said they believe Hillary will be the next President. One woman said..

      I am actually ok if Hillary wins even if I would rather a Republican win but we have no good candidates. But I do not want Bill Clinton in the White House.

      But the interesting part was her saying...

      I believe Hillary will be the next President.

      Ummmm..I am not a Hillary supporter by a long stretch but I found the fact that some fundies accept that....interesting.

      A few callers actually said they might be ok with Obama or Edwards as President and not Hillary but also did not want Rudy....etc..

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:47:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Some dude from some book called Dumblemore (0+ / 0-)

    is apparently gay.

    Okay, you don't care.  Because you don't care who is gay, and much less if the person doesn't really exist.

    But mark my words.

    It's going to get a whole lot of comment from the "values voters" crowd.  (Or at least from their mouthpieces.)

    Again, don't laugh.  It's going to get attention.

  •  Colbert (0+ / 0-)

    If Colbert only runs in one state, will he be allowed into the debates?

    •  While I truly enjoy (0+ / 0-)

      Colbert, a presidential debate is not the place for parody or satire.

      In fact, we must find some way of accomplishing the opposite.  That is reintroduction of oratory and rhetoric, facts and issues, argument that is reasoned and logical, and get away from he-said-she-said and ad hominum, blatent propaganda as opposed to propagating your position...

      ...and especially earpieces and mysterious box-like buldges under the candidate's suit.

      "Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the bastard is dead, the bitch that bore him is again in heat." -Bertolt Brecht

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 01:33:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The religious right will fall in behind Rudy. (0+ / 0-)

    It's not going to be a problem.   Rudy's been signaling that he's going to allow the religious right to control his supreme court appointments and domestic policy, because, frankly, he doesn't give a shit about gays or abortions as long as he's Commander in Chief and gets to order renditions and torture and the other Great Leader work.

    Of course, he's personally valueless, but (a) Great Leaders tell us what's what, not the other way around and (b) God works in mysterious ways.

    There's not going to be a religious right revolt against Rudy. Don't even plan on it.

    Read Obama's 2002 speech against invading Iraq. http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

    by Inland on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:34:02 PM PDT

    •  you could be right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jackieca

      but it is not what the media is saying or what Richard Land, Perkins ,  Dobson and many Fundie Ministers, church ladies, Anti Privacy people, and other fundies here and there.

      Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

      by wishingwell on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:49:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Faith-Ba$ed Initiative$ (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, mon, Mike Taylor

    Bush and co only pay lip service to ending abortion, but they do send $$$ directly to churches on the Faith-Based Iniative programs.  Those churches are invariably Protestant Fundamentalists.  A liberal Catholic like Rudy will either stop funneling government money to those churches, or he will make them divide it with (gasp) Catholic churches and other infidels.

  •  I think Giuliani would be a default candidate ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mon

    because everyone else in the top tier is so awful for the base.  If, on the other hand, Romney can convince them to overlook his past sins he will almost certainly be the nominee. He will almost certainly win the first two primaries/caucuses (Iowa and New Hampshire- assuming that they are first!) I just don't see Giuliani winning many primaries in the South and many Southerners will be smoldering with resentment if he gets the nomination. New Yorkers are probably at least as disliked as Mormons in the South, except for Florida.

    In short, the Republicans have nothing to offer the electorate and if one gets elected I will think the nation has finally gone mental.  While I have my issues with a few of the Democrats running, any of them would be an improvement over any of the top tier Republicans.

  •  But... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geotpf, mon

    Sorry to go to the Digger Phelps Book of Sports Cliches, but can't they smell it?

    This fundamentalist wing needed an on-the-record flip from Senior Bush in '88.  But since then, Marshall has been traded for Thomas, and O'Connor for Alito.  And look what's happened just in the last term alone - for abortion, we got Gonzales v. Carhart; for race-based preference, we got Parents v. Seattle / Meredith v. Jefferson.

    John Paul Stevens is 88 years old.  What are the odds that he's still serving five years from now?  Nine years from now?  If he is replaced by someone similar to Alito, I don't think polls will matter, I don't think collateral chaos will matter.  I think Roe is gone.

    The only way a President Giuliani wouldn't appoint a pro-life Justice is if the Democratic-controlled Senate stiffens.  Seeing what's going on with FISA, is that a bet you would make?

    On the other hand, if this fundamentalist wing split from Giuliani in the general, and Giuliani lost a close enough race that the split could be portrayed as a determining factor, wouldn't this wing subsequently get destroyed the way the Nader wing does on our side now?

    Obviously they can't back Giuliani now.  Maybe they wouldn't join the flock immediately after Giuliani hypothetically locked up the nomination.  But if Giuliani was close come Labor Day, I just doubt that they wouldn't recognize that they would be so close to the goal line on gutting Roe.

    "In time you can turn these obsessions into careers."

    by looking italian on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:41:02 PM PDT

  •  I liked the diary, the analysis was very (0+ / 0-)

    persuasive

  •  Well this is an interesting and valuable (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Mike Taylor

    perspective.

    I have always opposed religous fundementalism - and I am convinced that it takes many more forms that are generally understood.   Still, I don't believe that the fundies are any more or less corrupt than any other movement that has been co-opted by money.

    I have my own private fight against ignorance that is not relevant here in this diary, but I have been somewhat mystified about the origins of this particular ignorance.   Then I looked into the money behind the ignorance.   It made angrier than the ignorance itself.

  •  DH - you need to revise this: (0+ / 0-)

    (among voters in attendance, Huckabee beat Romney by 40 percentage points).

    Should read:

    by 30 VOTES.

    Note - 30 votes, not 40.

    Or perhaps you meant:

    .47% percentage points.

    POINT 47%

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

    by Spud1 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 05:55:53 PM PDT

    •  the tallies were (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geotpf, Spud1

      The full results:

      On Site
      Huckabee 488 (51.3%)
      Romney 99 (10.4)

      Thompson 77 (8.1)
      Tancredo 65 (6.8)
      Giuliani 60 (6.3)
      Hunter 54 (5.7)
      McCain 30 (3.2)
      Brownback 26 (2.7)
      Paul 25 (2.6)
      Undecided 11 (1.2)

      Online
      Romney 1595 (27.6%)
      Huckabee 1565 (27.2)
      Paul 865 (15)
      Thompson 564 (9.8)
      Brownback 297 (5.1)
      Hunter 140 (2.4)
      Tancredo 133 (2.3)
      Giuliani 107 (1.9)
      McCain 81 (1.4)
      Undecided 329 (5.7)

      So, on site, Huckabee won by 40.9 points.

      Reviews have power: http://www.homestars.com

      by mbzoltan on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:54:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Follow the Link (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat, Spud1

      30 votes and a percentage point or two overall, but 40% points in the vote of those in the room.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 08:04:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  power trumps all principles (0+ / 0-)

    It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.  

    Hello! Ever heard of NAFTA?

    •  No, Never Heard of It (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat

      And it's not the be all and end all of organized labor.  It was quite bad, and contributing to labor households dropping from 22% of the electorate in 1992 to 14% of the electorate in 1994.  But it's not as fundamental attack on labor as a Republican telling the fundies he supports abortion rights.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 07:59:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Republicans never count on the (0+ / 0-)

    "Fundies".  They are one issue voters, who usually vote for fringe candidates.   Don't over value their role in this election.  They are the "Greenies" of the Right.

    Because everyone has one. Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:04:44 PM PDT

  •  dhinmi (0+ / 0-)

    why is no one taking Romney seriously?  I have my own ideas on that, but I'd be interested in what others think.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:29:50 PM PDT

    •  Funding? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moiv

      Rachel Maddow commented on her show Thursday or Friday that if you take away contributions from Romney's biggest donor--himself--his numbers have been falling across the board.

      Giuliani's been laying roots in Texas for years now and he's currently cashing in. I think it will be a tough slog in the Repub primaries. Even if Giuliani loses Iowa and New Hampshire, I don't see him folding his cards right away.

      "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight. You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight." --Bruce Cockburn, "Lovers In A Dangerous

      by AustinCynic on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:43:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I Think He May Be the Nominee (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat, bythesea

      Candidates from MA usually win in NH.  He may be hurt by being beaten badly in IA, but he has a chance to win in NH and will have more money than the other candidates.  I think he could also tank, but I'm certainly not counting him out.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 08:06:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Greed no longer needs ignorance. (0+ / 0-)

    The money has been using the ignorant("values voters") for decades, until they finally got what they wanted.
    The Iraq war is now a $200 billion a year industry and the Military-Industrial complex now has the leaderships of both parties hooked like junkies on cocaine. Iraq's oil will be the bonus. Greed no longer needs the ignorance. None of the republican candidates even went to jerry Falwell's funeral. When they break the US treasury and steal Iraq's oil, they will be nothing else worth stealing. Greed no longer needs ignorance.

  •  Rudie will WHORE out to everyone and anyone once (0+ / 0-)

    ELECTED a la our Dear Leader George. The Christian Wignuts need not fear Rudie will be with ya all the way. Hypocrite that he is.

    Progressives - stay UNDECIDED on 2008 -4.63 -7.54

    by AustinSF on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 06:33:07 PM PDT

  •  The Values Voters know what I know (0+ / 0-)

    If you nominate Mr. Rudy I BROUGHT MY WHORE INTO THE HOUSE WITH MY WIFE AND CHILDREN ..Giuliani

    Then they won't be able to MUMBLE the word MORALITY for THE ENTIRE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN SEASON.

  •  Dems and labor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike Taylor

    It would be akin to organized labor supporting the Democratic party for decades and then seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to wipe out collective bargaining rights for workers.

    or like seeing the Democratic party nominate someone who wants to fast-track "free trade" agreements that will speed up the hemorrhaging of jobs out of the country.   Oh, wait, we did see that.

    And labor kept playing the rigged game.  And is being screwed over as badly as eve.

  •  Can you imagine the irony... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaintyKat

    A pro-choice nominee in a convention that has a party platform plank that is "anti-choice"?

    Beyond the money, the anti-choicers know it is more than just the SCOTUS.  It is foriegn policy (funding family planning abroad), social policy, health care policy, birth control policy, sex education in schools, military policy and many other program funding which can be changed to a neutral/pro-choice slant very easily with minor language changes in bills that an anti-choice president would veto but a pro-choice president if the money is correct would not veto.

    •  It is committee appointments in every area (0+ / 0-)

      of society.  Getting a Democrat in the White House can begin to reverse the damage that has been mounting up since Reagan's administration.

      PaintyKat

      WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

      by PaintyKat on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 11:01:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent post, sir. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mon
  •  Yup, got it in one. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    antifa, proudlattedrinker, bythesea

    In essence, the dominionist segment of the GOP is threatening a mass walkout to the Constitution Party for a number of reasons:

    a) In many states (Texas, in particular), the dominionists have hijacked the state GOP conventions to the point that the party platforms are remarkably similar to the Constitution Party official platform anyways.

    b) Dominionists are powerful enough, and influential enough, and have enough of an organised GOTV engine (probably one of the best of any group, as much as I hate to say it) that a mass exodus could put a serious hurt on the GOP (assuming the GOP does not reinvent itself as a moderate party).

    c) Dominionists are in part hoping that the Constitution Party does very well (enough to become the new dominionist political party of choice) or that the GOP will at least come crawling back on its knees after dealing with four years of Hillary or Obama.

    I can see their gambit going two ways (I really do not think the GOP as a whole is going to pick a dominionist candidate--and, unfortunately for the GOP, dominionists are likely to bail if Giuliani or Thompson get the nomination; yes, this ungentle divorce has been some time coming):

    a) Dominionists split, Constitution Party wins something like 20% of the vote, GOP comes crawling back.  Whether the dominionists accept the offer to play nice depends largely on how well the Constitution Party does--if it does really well, they may well decide to stick with it.

    b) Dominionists split, Constitution Party wins something like 20% of the vote, GOP reinvents itself as the New Middle Ground and tells dominionists to DIAF.  This could be very interesting if this happens--a "moderate GOP" could well pull off some of the "blue dog Democrats" and become a viable party.

    There are other possibilities I have not mentioned.  One is that the dominionists bail and the Constitution Party does poorly because most dominionists stay at home.  Especially if Hillary ends up in office--hell, even if Giuliani (Gods forbid) ends up in office--expect a major upswing in domestic terrorism, because "Joel's Army" will start feeling the ballot box isn't working so they'll start resorting to the bullet box.  (This was in fact documented when Clinton was in office.)  The good news here is that if this happens, the dominionists may be neutered for a time (they'll need to be prevented from "flaring up" as a bad rash on the national politic, though).

    Another, very frightening (IMHO) possibility is of a mass bailout to the Constitution Party and it getting more votes than the GOP; if this happens, even I have probably underestimated how many dominionists there are in the US, and it will be time for the country as a whole to have a very serious "come to Jesus" meeting (no pun intended) about its tolerance of what amounts to a coercive religious movement with political aspirations.  (If that happens, I will also likely start the process of what it would take to apply for asylum in a friendly host nation like Sweden or something; if any of you know about the Constitution Party (and if not, please see my diary entries), it is not an exaggeration to say it is a frankly Christian Reconstructionist-fascist party.  I am not about to end up in my own version of the Secret Annexe hoping I don't get killed by a "Watchers On The Walls"-style mob :P  Why?  Because if the Constitution Party got more votes than the GOP, that would indicate that over 40 percent of the US sympathises with dominionists and flat out fascists and racists to boot, and I will know at that point that there is little hope for the country.)

    •  We are not talking 20% (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bythesea

      We are talking 2.7%, say, 2,883,105 votes or so.

      But that's enough.

      •  I'd put it higher than that, to be honest (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        antifa, bythesea

        The Constitution Party gets that now in some states--I'm largely counting 20%-ish based on three factors:

        a) The dominionist GOTV engine--largely coordinated at the Council for National Policy--is already gearing up to tell their parishoners to vote a straight Constitution Party ticket if they don't get what they want (there's a LOT of talk about "Constitution Party" already in dominionist circles)--and yes, they do pretty much explicitly tell people who to vote for in many dominionist churches.

        b) It has been estimated (in a recent Pew Forum survey) that roughly 23 percent of Americans claiming to be Christians belong to pentecostal and "charismatic" congregations alone; many "charismatic" churches are in fact independent neopentecostal churches (and can in fact be described as "one-church daughter denominations" of the Assemblies of God or its own "daughter denominations" International Foursquare, Calvary Chapel or Vineyard) or are affiliated with neopentecostal parachurch groups (like Campus Crusade for Christ, the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International, etc.).

        Based on a US population (as of July 2007) of 301,139,947, as well as a 75% "Christian adherent" rate in the US, the number of neopentes in the US may be closer to 51,946,641; roughly halve that and you have the number of potential voters.  (Of note, the Assemblies of God--which essentially invented neopente dominionism--claims over five million of this number in the US alone; Pew Forum indicates the true number of actual Assemblies adherents is around 2 percent of the US population (6,022,799 people, again based on July 2007 population).

        So there is a potential voter pool of over three million from just one of the most hardline dominionist groups; there is a potential voter pool of over 25 million people from the movement most explicitly associated with dominionism in the US.

        This is, notably, not counting the Southern Baptist Convention (which is dominionist and is increasingly in a process of conversion to a Baptist neopentecostal group, similar to the early "steeplejacking" of the Reform Baptists in eastern Europe in the 1920s) or IRD-linked "restoration" groups in mainstream Christian groups.  Add those, and you get a much higher number; 22 percent of the US population are Baptists (and largely SBC), and roughly 20 percent of all Baptists are "charismatics"--almost all of which are members of what amount to neopente "cell groups" within Baptist churches.  (Of note, the SBC claims over 16 million members in the US.)

        Adding just the SBC and Assemblies pools of potential voters together, you get around twelve million people--and this is around eight or nine percent of the pool of potential voters.

        There is further skew here, too--among other things, dominionists are among the most politically active groups in the US in getting their members to register to vote and getting them out to vote in droves (it is not uncommon to hold mass voter registration drives in large Assemblies of God megachurches on the very same day that the pastor explicitly tells people to vote for a candidate or to vote for an amendment stripping civil liberties from LGBT people).  There actually is a larger percentage of dominionists who DO go out and vote--whilst maybe 20-40 percent of all eligible voters in the US do go out and vote in the average election (and the 40 percent typically only during presidential elections), dominionist groups often do have turn-outs above 50 percent (and often closer to 70-80 percent).  That, in and of itself, considerably skews their influence (which they have used to deadly effect in hijacking state GOP conventions, local and state elections, and so on)--and it is an area that progressives definitely need to work on.

        As an aside, the present approval rate of George W. Bush is around 23 percent right now--and it is in very large part from neopentecostal dominionists (who feel Dubya is "one of their own"--he may well be, in fact--and feel he is "God's Appointed President").  This would fit in line with hardline dominionist activity in the US in general, if the Pew Forum polls are accurate.

        There are factors that are likely to skew this up or down, admittedly.  If the Constitution Party runs someone very popular among dominionists (like Roy Moore, for instance--he does have known links to the Constitution Party, and a lot of support among dominionists) they could not only bleed off the dominionist support from the GOP but even get a lot of dominionists who would otherwise sit out to vote; if they ran someone relatively weak (like Peroutka or Huckabee--believe it or not, a lot of dominionists see Huckabee as being too liberal and aren't likely to vote for him) they'd get a number of dominionists sitting out as "disaffected voters".

        •  I still think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dogemperor

          at this point it would most likely be some voting Constution party, with others sitting it out or still voting GOP (or some other independent).  In that case the percentage would likely be pretty small, but could still be a spoiler for the GOP in many states.  However, as you point out anything is possible.

          Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -4.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

          by bythesea on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 11:24:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Huckabee is too liberal. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dogemperor

          I'm still getting my mind around THAT.

          I try to live by the Three Reality Principles.

          by proudlattedrinker on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:19:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Giving consideration for financial motivations (0+ / 0-)

    "but I think it overlooks a more base motivation: the desire of fundamentalist Christians engaged in professional politics to keep open the financial spigots and prevent the faithful from giving up on funding their political (and patronage) operations. "

    of fundamentalist Christians is monumental and I agree.  The budget is one area in which the Bush admin. rewarded the fundies throughout.  A careful look at contracts, grants, etc is a monumental job.  I participated in some of the contract research and it is actually astonishing how our tax payer dollars are supporting from the creation of a department that is dedicated to communicating between the administration of Bush and the Fundies.

    At the time of Katrina, I was astounded to realize that Pat Robertson and other Christian organizations had been given huge FEMA contracts and totally lacked emergency and disaster preparedness.  They got the $$$ though and I really suspected that they were laundered and ended up in GOP campaign coffers.

    DH, I think you are exactly on the mark.  I wonder how much of an increase in church building has gone on and how much of it is involved in the real estate bubble.  I knew in years past when Tammy Faye Baker's hub was dedicated totally to church building and his two sons have taken over the helm while Roe Messner.

    But Christian have taken over all forms of counseling concerning sex education, aids info, abortion lies, and any other area the government has provided pass through funds to communities to choose local organizations.

    Refreshing to once again be given some facts and thoughtprovoking ideas with which to deal with instead of the 5 or 6 sentence rants that has absolutely no credibility nor purpose other than wasting diary space.

    Peace,
    PaintyKat

    WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

    by PaintyKat on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 10:35:12 PM PDT

  •  Conservatives Should Back Huckabee. Of All The (0+ / 0-)

    Rethug nominees he is the only true conservative.

    They should pour some $$$ in his campaign, make it a race you know, or else Hillary will eat Giulliani Mc Romneys for lunch

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