Daily Kos

Free Speech Vs. Hate Speech

Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 11:38:17 AM PDT

"He who lives by fighting with an enemy has an interest in the preservation of the enemys’ life" - Neitzsche

        Hate speech has always been a very controversial issue in America. On one side, there are those who see hate speech as an extreme detriment to society that threatens social stability. On the other side, some claim that the 1st amendment is more importantly meant to protect the speech that everyone hates, not just the speech that everyone supports. Recently, a case involving two nations, 1000 hate messages and the internet has stirred up controversy over what the proper way is to deal with hate messages and speech:

"A Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has ordered a Calgary woman to stop posting hate messages against minority groups on a U.S.-based white supremacist website.

The commission fined Jessica Beaumont $1,500 for posting messages that hold Jews, gays, lesbians, Chinese, blacks, aboriginals and other non-whites up for hatred or contempt.

It also ordered Beaumont, 21, who once lived in British Columbia, to pay $3,000 in special compensation to a man about whom she posted hate messages.

``Ms. Beaumont is ordered to cease and desist from communicating or causing to be communicated any matter of the type contained in the messages that is likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt,'' wrote tribunal member Athanasios Hadjis."

        The debate over hate speech vs. free speech is a very contested debate, even in the progressive community, however I come down on this debate much more sympathetic towards the free speech side of the debate. Advocates for free speech over hate speech restrictions usually make a case similar to what Katharine Gelber describes in her book "Speaking Back: The Free Speech versus Hate Speech Debate":

"Free speech is a fundamental human right, an intrinsic good, and a cornerstone of liberal democracies. As a human right it ‘trumps’ mere individual or collective interests; the fact that speech might harm someone or some group’s interests is not of itself sufficient to justify restrictions on it. And since it is an intrinsic good its worth is not fully accounted for in terms of other goods that might be dependent on it, for example, knowledge or quality of life. Further, freedom of speech, and (relatedly) freedom of the press, are necessary conditions for a functioning democracy.

On the other hand, complete freedom of speech to say anything one wants to anyone and under all circumstances is not a morally sustainable option; the right to freedom of speech is not an absolute moral right, and nor is its intrinsic value an absolute value. For example, and as John Stuart Mill famously pointed out, a person does not have a moral right to shout ‘Fire!’ in a crowded hall, if that would lead to panic and thereby to serious injury or even loss of life."

I did not arrive at my opinion on free vs hate speech from a social station of privilege. As a dark skinned, gay, atheist from an immigrant family, there are a lot of reasons why I should support Hate speech protections. I remain opposed to the criminalization of hate speech out of principle that criminalizing an act does not deal with the ingrained societal reasons for the speech in the first place. Hate speech laws are akin to sweeping the dust under the rug. The dust doesn’t disappear; rather it just is put out of our sight so that our consciousness can be assured of not remembering it. The bottom line never changes that the dust is still there, we just don’t see how dirty it is.

Some alternatives have been proposed in Gelber's "Speaking Back: The Free Speech versus Hate Speech Debate":

"Where does hate speech fit into debate about free speech? Complete freedom of speech would enable a person or group to vilify another person or group. Complete freedom of speech would permit a person to produce the following utterances: ‘You black slut’, ‘You’re nothing but a coon’, ‘I’ve shot worse coons than you’. But people should not have to put up with hate speech of this kind. So some restrictions on hate speech are in order.

[the author] recommends against restricting freedom of speech, and in favour of (in effect) institutional empowerment of the victims of hate speech by way of a policy of ‘speaking back'. Speaking back involves such things as government funding for local newsletters to respond to episodes of hate speech in a specific community, or the development of an anti-racism program in a workplace in which hate speech has taken place."

In the LGBT community, each person must ask themselves on what part of the debate we fall under. We face thousands of different forms of hate speech by thousands of different people in our lifetimes. How can we create government, social and corporate policies that reduce those hate speech incidents without impugning beyond a certain degree on free speech? There will never be one answer from any community on this, since a community consists of diverse people with diverse beliefs, but as people within and outside of the LGBT community grapple with this perennial issue, we must look into our own struggle to understand how important it is to protect unpopular points of views that go against majority beliefs. As a community we are used to having our most pressing civil rights concerns being viewed negatively by the heterosexual and genderstraight majority.

It takes a true progressive to allow the greatest amount of free speech possible. Banning speech that most fair-minded people abhor does nothing else but radicalize and reinvigorate the group that produces the hating. In the quote that this diary started with: "He who lives by fighting with an enemy has an interest in the preservation of the enemys’ life". We cannot live our lives in response to these people who spout such hatred. Our attention only fuels copycats. We must understand that hate speech is ever present and work our hardest to educate people that such speech is preposterous. Banning such speech does nothing but sweep the problem under the rug. Punishing it only gives those select few bigots a reason to feel vindicated in their beliefs even further.

Poll

Where do you stand on banning hate speech

11%7 votes
16%10 votes
11%7 votes
60%37 votes

| 61 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: hate, speech, LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, free, controversy (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 28 comments

    •  Supprisingly, yes. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marykk, jessical

      I usually disagree more with you than agree. But in this case I agree more.

      I'm not sure where I fall on this--I tend to lean more towards the Canadian and European model, but not absolutely. I recognize you can't change what people think.

      Your point is well-made that we may, indeed, do more harm than good by taking it too far. I would definitely advocate for caution.

      "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

      by homogenius on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:02:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the response (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jessical

        At the risk of undercutting my post, I totally am up in the air in this issue, even though I gave a stance in the post. It's one of those debates that I haven't paid a substantial amount of attention to, yet, which is why I made this post. The Kos community is an excellent forum for education on issues such as this.

      •  Hi, homogenius. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        homogenius, jessical, dantyrant

        I recognize you can't change what people think.

        I have to disagree with that.  Of course we can change what people think.  That's the whole idea behind education.

        Free Speech comes with responsibility.  And someone speaking freely is not protected from response by others, who get to use their own freedom of speech to respond.  Anything that blocks that freedom to respond is encouraging "Freedom to Harangue" rather than Freedom of Speech.  I don't think we should encourage the former.

        •  Yes and no. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rserven, jessical

          I was sloppy--what I should have said is we can't force people to change what they think.

          And technically I wouldn't say that we can change what people think (you can lead a horse to water....). But I agree with you about winning hearts and minds--education is key.

          But I think the question here is where we set the bar on what speech is prohibited and under what circumstances.

          And I agree with you about the freedom to respond. Part of the solution is educating and empowering ourselves to respond. For anyone who has felt marginalized this can be a journey.

          "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

          by homogenius on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:19:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The American benchmark... (0+ / 0-)

        has long involved strong protection against prior restraint, not (as many seem to think) absolute freedom of all speech in all circumstances.

        Codifying hate speech, at least in this country, into statute is not all that different than other forms of recognition of aggravating circumstances.  Threatening someone with bodily harm, for example, is a form of speech, and obviously is (and who doubts that it should be?) a crime.  Doing it while brandishing a lethal weapon, and the law recognizes it as even more serious.  Making the threat in such a way that threatens not only an individual but an entire group... well, you see where I'm going.

        Take as another example the crime of conspiracy.  Or solicitation.  Or incitement.  All of these are criminal forms of speech, not protected by the First Amendment.

        Then there's the whole issue of the venue.  If I'm holding a meeting of my terrorist cell men's consciousness raising group, does Bill O'Reilly have a constitutional right to come in and drown us out with his ravings?  Or am I justified in calling the cops to have him removed?  What?  Me stifle anyone's speech no matter how odious?  You betcha.

        I can be (and am frequently accused of being) as starry eyed an idealist as anyone, but I resist the temptation to let my knee jerk whenever someone is claiming their First Amendment right to freedom of expression is being threatened.

        Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

        by jgilhousen on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:59:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I had the privilege of seeing Hitchens speak at (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    snoopydawg, jessical

    the University of Toronto Hart House last year at a debate about Canada's proposed hate speech laws. Much as I disagree with his politics-- especially since the beginning of the so-called War on Terror-- I do believe that he has something valuable to say about this. It was aired on TV Ontario, so luckily it's available for all to watch.

    Highly recommended viewing.

  •  You can't yell "fire" in a crowded (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    buddabelly, dantyrant

    movie theater. But you can voice stupid, inane and hateful ideas and opinions. Popular speech doesn't need protection.

    The proper answer to hate speech is more speech telling the other side of the story...not censorship.

    When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

    by Rayk on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:22:53 PM PDT

    •  targeting individuals (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Iranaqamuk

      Mostly I agree, but there's a version of hate speech that involves targeting individuals with hateful stuff that borders on slander or libel but would be difficult to argue in court and beyond the resources of an individual to fight that way. Usually involving the person's real or suspected membership in one the groups that haters love to hate (unconventional sexuality, minority ethnic group, etc.). Maybe expanding the legal category of "harassment" (if there even is such a thing now) would capture that. More speech telling the other side of the story is hard for an individual who may be outnumbered by his or her harassers.

      That's a far cry from a law saying Rev. Phelps (or whatever the jerk's name is) can't call homosexuality sinful and an abomination. (If he advocate doing violence to homosexuals there should be a law against that already.) Or a law that says you can be put in jail for saying 5 million Jews rather than 6 million died in the Holocaust (I've heard there are laws like that in some European countries but I hope that's an exaggeration). Once you start having laws like that the genie is out of the bottle and you can kiss meaningful free speech goodbye.

      •  "if he advocates doing violence..." (0+ / 0-)

        also protected speech, so long as it's in the abstract.

        BRANDENBURG v. OHIO, 395 U.S. 444 (1969)

        Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

        This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
        This is only a test.
        If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

        by ben masel on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 02:16:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  abstract vs. imminence (0+ / 0-)

          I've always read the Brandenburg test to turn on whether the speech incites imminent lawless action.  Brandenburg's speech actuall did call for abstract violence ("Let's take the fucking streets" or something like that), but it was protected speech because he added "later, after we've torched a doobie or two" (or something like that), thus making his call to action non-imminent.

          "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

          by Old Left Good Left on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 02:37:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Peace Out (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    snoopydawg

    I'm escaping from my computer to go read the news in Dupont Circle (this nice little cozy park area/traffic circle in D.C.).

    Ciao ya'll!

  •  if you enact (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iranaqamuk, sandbox, dantyrant, echatwa

    If you enact "hate speech" laws, then you effectively have limited free speech.  Those who get to decide what is hate speech now get to control free speech.

    If a group of law makers get to decide what is and isn't allowed, YOU NO LONGER HAVE FREE SPEECH.

    The more laws you enact, the less freedom you allow, since laws are not some pure heavenly devined idea, they are the tools of the rich, powerful, and special interest.

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:32:01 PM PDT

    •  And if you enact restrictions... (0+ / 0-)

      on the people's right to enact hate speech legislation you are violating their constitutional right of self government.  Dang.  Who'd have guessed that constitutional law is more complex than a simple list of eternal absolutes.  Those shades of grey are just so tedious.

      Healthcare NOT Warfare! (Petition)

      by jgilhousen on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 01:01:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  eh... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rserven

    ...a lot of it seems to be historical context.  There is a paricular madness of crowds that results in unlivable societies, and since western Europe went through that 60 years ago, the laws reflect that reality.  We're going through it now.  As such I'd expect all the labels that are used in places going nuts to distinguish "good" people from "bad" ones to be applied willy nilly, in ways that serve power.  I don't think we can even start to think in terms of the EU model until there is an idea of a society with some sort of quality of life as a value--

    In terms of LGBT and hate speech -- personally I'm happy with laws that shut people the fuck up, past a certain point:}  Hating on people in public is not an act of individual truth, to be nurtured in freedom.  But...since I feel this way in the context of a society where people are genuinely scared to be polically visible on other issues, at this point...with cause...that seems, well...less than relevant :}

  •  To be considered is the USA may end up as one of (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iranaqamuk, echatwa

    last remaining real free speech countries.  In many European countries (and I think the EU Parliament) free speech has been curtailed by defining and categorizing hate speech. This has become a special problem as relates to criticism of Islam which is labeled Islamophobia.  The Islamists are very keen to shut down any criticism of Islam.  All religions should be subject to criticism and even ridicule--that's what free speech is all about.

  •  It is a null argument (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iranaqamuk, echatwa

    in the US free speech - including hate speech - is guaranteed in the constitution and there are no laws prohibiting it - nor can there be short an amendment to the Constitution.

    Canada doesn't have our absolutist free speech constitution and so can legislate against hate speeh.

    But it is nothing that can happen here

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 01:43:50 PM PDT

  •  As a non-theist in america (0+ / 0-)

    I am frightened most by the repositories of codified hatred known as christianity, judaism, and islam.  Their so called good books are replete with calls to "kill the infidel" (me).  So yes I am all in favor of criminalizing hate speech.  

  •  Thank you all for responding (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iranaqamuk

    I read every comment and value very much the insight and education. My apologies for not being able to respond individually to them.

  •  I think that (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iranaqamuk

    banning hate speech provides a precedent for banning all speech. It's a slippery slope kind of thing. What if Republicans wanted to ban talk that's 'hateful against America'?

  •  An example to you (0+ / 0-)

    hypothetical Republican ban on "anti-American" speech is Turkey's ban pn anything that might insult "Turkishness" which is super super broad.

  •  if you believe in banning (0+ / 0-)

    "hate speech" then you don't really believe in free speech in the first place, you just believe in allowing people to say things you happen to think they should be allowed to say.

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