Daily Kos

chris matthews, fascist?

by anna shane

Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:03:30 PM PDT

Chris Matthews announced on his program this afternoon that he's in favor of national identity cards. He says, "in this day and age," he's in favor. Well, Chris, you are being un-American with such a proposal. You want the police to stop you and ask for your identification?  He even got Eliot Spitzer to agree that it's time to end our freedoms the way we've always known them.  This to protect us from undocumented workers, or to track terrorists, who surely won't be traveling under their true names, or to give our police forces further means to abuse some of us?  

This is getting beyond funny.  This is America, Chris, a place where you can use any name you wish, go anywhere you like, and refuse to answer anyone's questions, unless it's the police and they have probable cause to suspect you of having committed a crime.  This is a place where you can move and start over, if that's what you like.  A national identity card anathema to our freedoms.  

In Chris's haste to label Hillary he's taken the fascist trail.  The point of a 'national identity card' is that you can be forced to produce it.  Poor Chris, he needs a check up.    Poor us, if anyone takes this seriously.  

Poll

the point of a national identity card is to?

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| 110 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: national identity cards, chris matthews, fascism (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 77 comments

  •  thanks for watching (10+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MadRuth, mattman, cosette, deepfish, Lying eyes, Temmoku, anna shane, EdSF, leonard145b, HoosierDeb

    the asshat so I dont have to.

    Mrs. Teasdale: I held him in my arms and kissed him. Rufus T. Firefly: Oh, I see, then it was murder!

    by ratador on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:04:49 PM PDT

  •  Chris, you can have ID# 0000000001 (8+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MadRuth, mattman, cotterperson, cosette, murrayewv, Lying eyes, anna shane, leonard145b

    It would fit your oversized ego.

    by LRT on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:05:35 PM PDT

  •  Why do you all hate Chris Matthews so much... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    redcardphreek, anna shane, Ashley Taylor

    He's not a tool of the right wing for Gods sake. He is a moderate commentator working for a defense contractor. What the hell do you expect? Why don't you spend more time attacking the other side then our own. It's absurd.

    by KentJohnson on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:06:39 PM PDT

  •  It's all about control . . . (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tonyahky, anna shane

    and those in power always want more of it.

    by Indexer on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:10:35 PM PDT

    •  and more, and more, and more (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tonyahky, ratador

      How can anyone think this would be a reasonable response to anything, let alone terrorism or undocumented workers? If it cured cancer maybe, no, not even then, life should be free of having to identify yourself to some bureaucrat.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:13:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "the point of a national identity card is..." (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    trashablanca, anna shane, Owllwoman, ratador, dantyrant

    to provide employment to actors with heavy German accents.

    "Papers?"

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:11:51 PM PDT

    •  Papers? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      anna shane

      Do you mean my "Letters of Transit"?

      Mrs. Teasdale: I held him in my arms and kissed him. Rufus T. Firefly: Oh, I see, then it was murder!

      by ratador on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:24:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that's so... (0+ / 0-)

        17th century?  Is that what they used to be called?  

        Hillary - Alternative Energy

        by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:31:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Letters of Transit were (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Andrea inOregon, anna shane, palantir

          the golden ticket in the movie Casablanca.

          Ugarte (Peter Lorre), a petty criminal, arrives in Rick's club with "letters of transit" he obtained by killing two German couriers. The papers allow the bearer to travel freely around German-controlled Europe, including to neutral Lisbon, Portugal, and from there to the United States. They are almost priceless to any of the continual stream of refugees who end up stranded in Casablanca. Ugarte plans to make his fortune by selling them to the highest bidder, who is due to arrive at the club later that night. However, before the exchange can take place, Ugarte is arrested by the local police under the command of Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), a corrupt Vichy official who accommodates the Nazis. Unbeknownst to Renault and the Nazis, Ugarte had left the letters with Rick for safekeeping, because "...somehow, just because you despise me, you are the only one I trust."

          Mrs. Teasdale: I held him in my arms and kissed him. Rufus T. Firefly: Oh, I see, then it was murder!

          by ratador on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:41:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  After a night of heavy drinking in Amsterdam... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mattman, Andrea inOregon, anna shane

      some friends and I took a night train to Munich a few years back. I was woken up at the border by a German soldier with a weapon demanding to see my "papieren"! Scary way to wake up...  

      by dantyrant on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:55:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You mean 'totalitarian' (9+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Andrea inOregon, cosette, trashablanca, tonyahky, judasdisney, anna shane, JeremyA, Owllwoman, ratador

    Fascism is something very specific and Matthews is not fascist.  Totalitarianism is the more general form of state control you are highlighting, which deprives citizens of liberties,  etc.  By endorsing these cards, Matthews expressed his sympathies to a totalitarian policy.

    We already have a national ID system.  It's called a passport.  If you're a citizen, and you want to leave the country, you need to get one.  But a mandatory national id system to, in theory, help us tell who's 'one of us' and who isn't  The creation of such a centralized system has always been abused and it will be again if it ever comes to pass here.

    ---
    Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:12:42 PM PDT

    •  but you're not forced to produce it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mattman, trashablanca

      and even if you stay home, it would be a crime not to have one.  You don't have to have a passport or a driver's license if you don't want them, and if you have no income you're not forced to have a ss number, and ss numbers are protected by law from being used to identity anyone for any other agency.

      I think it's both.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:16:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably Going to Be Enforced by a Corporation (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tonyahky, anna shane, dantyrant

      which is closer to Mussolini's definition of fascism.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:36:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm pretty sure Mussolini used the word (0+ / 0-)

        corporativismo which at the time translated, roughly, as 'a system based on guilds,' as opposed to limited-liability stock-issuing corporations run by executive boards.   So, what he envisioned was a dictator (himself) who would appoint officials to be in charge of guilds for each sector of the economy, all reporting back up through a massive bureaucracy to the one head of state.      

        Medieval Italian city states were based on guilds, so he thought this was what he should do (he also thought this because he was an idiot).

        ---
        Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

        by Jeffrey Feldman on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:29:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I wish to comment (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tonyahky, anna shane, Owllwoman, ratador

    But first, may I see your papers please?

    DFooK

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:13:07 PM PDT

  •  Ron Paul now right 4 times a day. (0+ / 0-)

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:14:53 PM PDT

  •  I must have missed that part of the interview (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    I heard him say he didn't care whether we had a national ID card or not.

    by Dr Colossus on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:15:42 PM PDT

  •  When "moderates" start calling for (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hornito, Andrea inOregon, cosette, anna shane, Owllwoman, A Man Called Gloom

    things like national ID cards, it should illustrate to us just how powerfully effective the right-wing, fear-mongering propaganda machine really is. Not so long ago, the very idea of a national ID card would have had many "righties" up in arms--they would have been screaming about communism and the the mark of the beast. Now, the idea is almost "mainstream".

    The Poor Folks Survival Guide

    by tonyahky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:16:02 PM PDT

  •  Naw, just a regular blowhard. Dumbass. nt (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane, ratador

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:18:59 PM PDT

  •  But the terrorists hate our freedoms. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    You see, we need to eliminate our freedoms before the terrorists do.  Because they would.

    by judasdisney on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:23:08 PM PDT

  •  Will these "ID cards" have political affiliations (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    judasdisney, anna shane

    In either red or blue on the front...you know...to weed the "terrorists" out from everyone else?

    by catnap1972 on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:25:56 PM PDT

    •  ask Chris (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chuco35

      it's his idea

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:29:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's a bleak scenario: The REAL ID act (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tonyahky, anna shane, JeremyA

      President Hillary Clinton, under assault from non-stop unfavorable court decisions from John Roberts, under assault from non-stop dirty tricks and false intelligence from Cheney's "sleeper cells" inside the CIA/FBI/DIA/NSA/DOD/etc., under assault from the MSM on a 24/7 cycle, finally relents to the Neocon Noise Hurricane and agrees to a "compromise" National ID.

      Will Kossacks support it then, because it's Hillary?

      The REAL ID Act was postponed by the Republican Congress of 2006 to be enacted in December, 2009 by the next President.

      The REAL ID Act was snuck through, hidden in the Tsunami Relief Act.

      The REAL ID Act is already law, signed by Bush on May 11, 2005.

      The REAL ID Act by law must be enacted and enforced by the next President in December 2009 -- setting off the chain-reaction of backlash against the next President.

      [What if that President is a Democrat?  What if that President is already under assault for being "weak on National Security"? What if that Democratic President is already being called "authoritarian" in bogus accusations?  The bleak scenario is endless here.  The next President is already being set-up].

      by judasdisney on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:45:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  both him and russert are both assholes. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    and they belong to the "I hate Hillery club" and no doubt hate women in general.

    Full discloser: I'm leaning towards voting for Edwards in the primary.

    by Unbozo on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:33:17 PM PDT

  •  I See Local Headline That DHS Wants Boaters to (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tonyahky, anna shane, JeremyA

    carry ID. Haven't read further but I presume they mean more than driver's license.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:34:10 PM PDT

  •  I have always heard that national ID cards (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    redcardphreek, Ashley Taylor

    were really bad things, and I suppose they must be.  But for the life of me I don't understand the difference between a national ID card and my state-issued driver's license.

    If the cops want to stop you, they can find a way even now.  I don't know if you have to show them any ID today unless you are driving when you are stopped.  So is that the problem?  Because if it is, then all we have to do is make it illegal for the cops to ask for ID cards.

    I suppose that people don't want the possibility of a government data base that could be used to track their movements, but we have that today and it has existed for a long time.  I have been tracked by a stalker, one of my former students, who worked for a mortgage company.  She could find me when I moved, and got a mortgate on a house.  And she could track me even when I didn't move, I don't know how exactly but it was through the use of computers.  And if she can do that then the cops can do it even more easily I am sure.

    I would appreciate it if someone would please tell me what the problem is with national ID cards.  I would really like to know.

    I'm not trying to make trouble so don't jump on me.  I just want to understand what the fuss is about.

    And what about our social security cards, aren't they the same as ID cards?  And doesn't the IRS already have all kinds of data on each of us, well, at least on those of us who pay taxes openly.  

    Now I can see how national ID cards would be very useful in developing systems, such as national health insurance, which would be of great benefit to all of us.  There are many other such possiblilties.  

    Thanks.

    If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

    by hestal on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:45:27 PM PDT

    •  it's this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hestal

      no one is required to have a passport or a driver's license, and you're not forced to produce one, unless you're driving or traveling outside the country, because you're not required to have one or to carry it with you. A national id would be mandatory, and you'd be required to show it on demand. That's the difference.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:01:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see. I wasn't sure if we are required to (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anna shane, dantyrant

        show our driver's license if we are just walking down the street.  So you have cleared that up for me.  If I am just gawking at the tall buildings as I walk through Manhattan, the cops can't ask for any form of ID today.

        I am just wondering out loud now.  If there is a law that restricts when cops can ask for ID today it seems that we could modify that law to include the National ID card, couldn't we?

        But I think I am getting it now.  You are saying that the purpose of a National ID card is to be able to stop people for any reason no matter where they may be.  

        So the objection is not to the National ID card, but rather to its expected use.  When people propose a National ID card as a means for controlling illegal immigration, some others of us object because we don't want to be stopped by the authorities.  We don't want the inconvenience?  

        This is very interesting to me.  Thanks for educating me.

        But without an ID card of some kind, even today, certain services are denied to our citizens.  I think Medicare requires someone to have an ID card in order to receive medical services.  Maybe Medicaid too.

        So if I get this, we could have a National ID card but restrict the situations when the authorities could ask for us to show it to them.  That way we could get the benefit of using the card for services and keep the law enforcement officials out of the picture.  That could be a way to limit illegal immigration.  By making important services available only to citizens with the appropriate ID, which is what we do somewhat today, living illegally in our country would become much less attractive than it is today.

        Forgive me, I am just rambling.  

        Thanks again.

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:15:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  then it isn't necessary (0+ / 0-)

          if it's required, then it's open to all sorts of abuses, and even makes it more difficult to change names.  If it isn't required it's no different than anything else, and it would not work for the purposes that are proposed, to identify undocumented workers, who wouldn't be able to produce one, and if no one is required to produce it, then it wouldn't work for what they 'say' they want it for.  There are required documents for specific purposes, like to drive, but they can't be used to track (and repress/control) the entire population.

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:22:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think I understand. But I still have trouble (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            anna shane

            sorting out the difference between "required documents" and an ID card.  Isn't an ID card a "required document?"  I do understand how "required documents" can be used for limited purposes.

            But let me tell you this real life experience.  I was doing some consulting a few years ago for a large company that manages awards programs, such as airline miles for using a certain card.  They were talking with the National Rifle Association about a special awards program.  As I listened to them talk I became interested in the level of paranoia exhibited by the NRA people.  They were afraid that the government could get a copy of the membership roster from the files being used to manage the awards program and use the roster to go get their members' guns.  I am not kidding.  It happened during the Clinton administration.

            So my point is that all kinds of data are stored all over the place and they can be abused, like GWB is abusing phone company data.

            So "National ID Card" is a commonly accepted term that is used by most people to signal the idea that the authorities will use it to repress and control the population, right?  It is the intended use of the card that upsets everybody.  The card is just shorthand for Nazis in action or something like that.

            Thanks for helping me with this.

            If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

            by hestal on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:34:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the nra wasn't wrong (0+ / 0-)

              if we can be spied on, then the information about can an be used to target us, under the circumstance that we have a government who thinks it's in the interest of most to do that. We interred Japanese Americans in WWII, it happens.  We already have given up most of our privacy, for marketers, and that information is somewhere. But we can still walk around and if some cop asks us to identify ourselves, we can still refuse, and if they arrest us, we can sue, we're right and they're wrong.  That's the main thing, we have freedom to not answer to authority, there is nothing we're required to have in order to prove our right to be anywhere the public is allowed to be. That's enough to be against any such thing.  We have to trust that our government will not decide to oppress us or round us up, but it's a matter of trust, and depending on circumstances, we don't want to make it too easy to control our movements.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:25:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I also don't see why a national ID card is scary (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        redcardphreek

        I once say someone kicked off an Amtrak train because he didn't have any photo ID. I remember the conductor saying "what kind of moron would travel from Washington DC to Philadelphia without ID?"

        Without some sort of official state issued ID, you can't drive a car, can't get a job, can't take a train somewhere, can't fly on an airplane. An ID is already is mandatory.

        So the only thing a national ID does is make it harder to to break the law by showing a fake ID.

        by Ashley Taylor on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:13:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but it's still not required (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mattman

          someone who wants to live in the shadows can't do certain things, like ride amtrak, but they can still live in the shadows if they like.  It's about a general requirement that even applies to people who don't want to drive or fly on an airplane. But the main thing is that we can walk around and no one can make us identify ourselves. We can say, i don't think so, we don't have to show our driver's license, or any id at all, cause it's not required that we carry it around with us and show it to any 'official' on demand.  We can show our documents, but only if we think what we get for that is worth it.   right now you can use any name you like, it doesn't have to be the same name as is on your driver's license, unless you're doing it for fraud, you can do it on whim. In Europe they can't do that, that's criminal, here it's why not  you can be whoever you like.    

          Hillary - Alternative Energy

          by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:31:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  People living in the shadows? (0+ / 0-)

            someone who wants to live in the shadows can't do certain things, like ride amtrak, but they can still live in the shadows if they like

            Without an ID card, you can't have a job, drive a car, or even get married.

            Since when is people living in the shadows part of the Democratic platform? Part of a progressive platform?

            The Democratic Party website says:

            Democrats are unwavering in our commitment to keep our nation safe. For Democrats, homeland security begins with hometown security. That's why we led the fight to create the Department of Homeland Security and continue to fight to ensure that our ports, nuclear and chemical plants, and other sensitive facilities are secured against attack and support increased funding for our first responders and programs like the COPS program so we keep our communities safe.

            How does people living in the shadows make the country safer? It seems to against the official Democratic Party policy.

            But the main thing is that we can walk around and no one can make us identify ourselves.

            How would a national ID card change that? Would the Constitution cease to exist because we now have a better and harder to forge ID card? Police would still need "reasonable suspicion" to stop someone on the street just as before. They would still need "probable cause" to arrest someone.

            The idea that we have more freedom because people can more easily forge ID cards is illusory.

            by Ashley Taylor on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:30:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  what's the issue? (0+ / 0-)

              In America we have many rights unknown elsewhere, and that has nothing to do with making us safer, it has to do with real freedom.  You can move away from home, take on a new name, live anyway you like, as long as it isn't for the purpose of fraud.  That's about real freedom, not that you'd want to, or that I'd want to, but we could, and no one could come after us and call it a crime.  A national id would be required for everyone, and it would have your personal data on it, and the big point is that you'd be required to identify yourself to whatever officials demand to know who you are, now you can just say, bugger off, I don't have to tell you a thing.  

              If we want to be safer there are many places that would actually help.  Cars and roads could be safer, hospitals, drugs, there are many places where more are killed, handguns for example, they could haver required safety features that would improve safety.  That national ID debate is about undocumented workers, if all Americans can show a national id, and non-Americans don't have one, they you ask anybody and if they have one and we'd be forced to show it or face consequences.  I don't want to have to remember to take my national id with me whenever I talk a stroll, and make sure I don't lose it with my purse, and have to report it as lost, like with credit cards and driver's license.  that's an invasion into my life.  

              What's the problem that would be solved by Americans having to show national id's?  Do you really want to be walking on some street and a policeman can ask you to show your papers, and you'd have to?  Do you really want it to be a crime if you want to pretend to have a different name?  We have the freedom we have, more isn't in the cards, only less.  

              Hillary - Alternative Energy

              by anna shane on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:24:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mattman, anna shane

    think Tweety is more an intolerable asshole than a fascist.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-02-19-mccain-roe_x.htm

    by joojooluv on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:58:02 PM PDT

  •  his obsession with Hillary is sick (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mattman, anna shane

    He isn`t as bad as everyone here makes him out to be. He is against the war  so I can`t seee how he can support Rudy.
    He just can`t deal with the idea that a woman could be his president.He does seem to have it in for Bush these days.Probably looks at Keith`s ratings and  drools,

    by JOEL1954 on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:59:04 PM PDT

  •  He's kinda dumb... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mattman, anna shane

    He on one hand recognizes that we're headed towards fascism, but doesn't understand that the mechanisms are already in place and advocates some of them.

    by Use Common Sense on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:11:52 PM PDT

    •  that's it (0+ / 0-)

      in a nutshell, someone should mention it to him, but he's probably too dumb to get it.  let's hope there aren't too many like him so willing to give up what makes it great to be American.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:23:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  OK, let me (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    get this straight.. I do not live in NY so I had not heard spitzers explanation til he was on Hardball.

    His take:

    Like HRC said, he feels that with a million undocumented persons living in NY state that as a security matter, it would behoove the state to know who they are... so he wants to issue drivers licenses of two variety.. one for legal citizens that also acts as a federally accepted ID for getting on planes,getting documents ect. and then one for undocumented people that would give them driving rights but not work for the federal purposes.

    Now, HRC has said, probably correctly, that this is a legit national security issue and some documentation of these people should be done.

    Now, Matthews ripped on HRC for her stance but says their should be a national ID.. I presume for everyone, excluding undocumented workers.

    So, I am not certain where I stand on this. I wish we could get some comprhensive immigration reform that would include dealing with this issue. But absent that, I can still see both sides... HRC's waffle is a little more understandable on this issue.. but not some of her others.

    by Hawkjt on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:23:21 PM PDT

    •  that's where you stand (0+ / 0-)

      not for piecemeal 'solutions' that won't work and can be abused, and are damn confusing, but for comprehensive immigration reform that will work to bring undocumented workers into the open, on some path to legality, since it's unrealistic to pretend they could all be identified and deported, which is what they're trying to do by blocking reform and going ahead with harassing people.  That's where I stand too.  New York can't solve the terrorist problem, and documents wouldn't do that either, since those documents would be stolen or forged, but New York can start to solve the uninsured motorist problem.  

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:28:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Typical liberal angst failing to see that... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    We have a fantastic opportunity here! A digital camera, a plastic laminator, PROFIT!

    by palantir on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:14:40 PM PDT

Permalink | 77 comments