Daily Kos

Control. Taser death video released.

Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:01:06 PM PDT

The Video that was taken at the Vancouver Airport,  of the taser death of Mr Dziekanski has been released to the public today. I said a couple weeks ago that I had no desire to see it, and I mostly haven't changed my mind on that score. Its been posted in three parts, and I watched the first two. I will not watch the third, where he dies. The second part is bad enough.

It took some doing to get the video back. When Mr Pritchard agreed to let the police view the video and take it as evidence, the police promised to return it within 48 hours and quickly reneged on that promise.

In fact there were some rumours that it would be for an indefinite period of a year. If ever?

It seems there were reasons that the Police didn't want it released.  The rationale of CYA? (cover your ass)


Heres the link. Its in three parts, they are listed in the right sidebar. The second is extremely graphic, I haven't seen the third as I said. I have no desire to see a man die. Be cautious, and be warned.

What did the film show? Exactly what the man who took the film said it would.


The tape then shows the following, he said:

  • Upon arrival, the Taser was quickly drawn;

  • The Taser was first used about 35 seconds after police arrived on scene;

  • As three officers held Dziekanski down, a second attempt to Taser him was made; after they had Dziekanski restrained, an officer placed his knee on Dziekanski's neck and held it there, and;

  • Although the officers were trained in CPR, none of them attempted to revive Dziekanski after he lost consciousness.

He's about right on all counts.
Add to that the fact that the police INSISTED there were only 2-3 officers there. They said the witnesses who insisted there were 4 cops attending the death, were wrong...
The witnesses were more accurate than ANY of the police statements.
Then realize that no one attempted CPR, and the airport medics were not called. An ambulance team took 12 minutes. The airport medics would have saved 10 minutes, and maybe a life.

I wrote a post about this a short while back, called Electric Justice. There were links to other taser incidents, and a list of incidents that just occurred here in BC. There was also a link to a blog that tracks these sorts of stories Confrontation- News and information on social conflict across Canada.

The Taser is being used more and more, and becoming even more controversial. It sounds not too bad according to it's proponents; It's supposed to be "non lethal". A way for police to incapacitate violent people without shooting them.
But beneath the surface it is becoming like any other tool that has the power to  control people. It has become a means to cause fear, to keep the good citizens in line. Just the perfect thing for any upcoming peace demonstrations?

TASER International, Inc. (Nasdaq:TASR), a market leader in advanced electronic control devices, today announced that it received three significant orders from law enforcement agencies. The first order received was from the Houston Police Department in Houston, TX, for 480 TASER(r) X26(tm) Electronic Control Devices (ECDs) and related accessories. The second order was from the Suffolk Police Department in Suffolk, VA, for 140 TASER X26 ECDs, 140 TASER CAM(tm) recording systems, and related accessories. The third order was from the Hamilton County Sheriff's Department in Chattanooga, TN, for 110 TASER X26 ECDs, 110 TASER CAM systems, and related accessories.

Thats market news told from CNN....Its almost like they are reporting the sale of stereo equipment.  But this is more of a market advisory. BUY shares! Blech.

In another article outlining how a Football player was pulled over for failing to use his turn signals and tasered, and then not charged with anything, including the traffic infractions......This note.

A Houston Chronicle analysis of HPD Taser incidents from December 2004 through August 2006 showed that blacks and Hispanics were shocked far more often than whites. Of 892 incidents, 73 percent of the subjects shocked were black.
The review also showed that in more than one-third of cases, no charges were filed in state or county courts.

Then there is the next evolution beyond tupperware, Avon, and sex toy parties....

Thank the lord that I never stuck around to see the next big thing. Taser Parties. Paranoid girls can now gather together to check out the latest in non-lethal weaponry. Lisa Rigberg is a Taser Party host. Speaking to news show Local6, she said that a Taser is a must-have for

the girl-about-town:

It's light, it's small and it comes in colors. [...]if you know you are going to be in a certain situation where you might be uncomfortable, why not have it with you? It just makes you more confident.

In colours, accessorized with ones purse and lipstick? Is it me, or is this just wrong?

The following story is disturbing, but kind of amusing in a twisted way:

Wisconsin Cop Shocked by Own Taser

Madison police released a report Monday on the July 31 incident,
without revealing the officer's name or gender. The department said the
Taser accidentally discharged during a standard checkout procedure.


-snip


The officer's hand was injured, police spokesman Joel DeSpain said.

Just remember, THIS Revolution, will be Youtubed. Keep your camera nearby.

Updated from a post at A Creative Revolution.

Tags: taser, Canada, RCMP, Robert Dziekanski (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 93 comments

    •  This season's must have accessory (10+ / 0-)

      for the well-equipped sadist. It seems a day doesn't go by without a tale of taser abuse.

    •  How about banning the fucking pigs? Regards, Doc (5+ / 0-)

      Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

      by Translator on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:21:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good idea. (4+ / 0-)

        Let's prevent crime by, ummmm, ......

        Hmm.  What's your plan?

        •  I do not have a good plan, but (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          amRadioHed, debedb, Rex Manning

          it would be better if they did not have a deity complex.  Regards, Doc.

          Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

          by Translator on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:31:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sorting out the 'pigs'... (5+ / 0-)

          ...from the honest lawmen (and women) is a good idea.

          Pigs are the ones that use their badges and guns as tools to commit crimes.

          Honest, stand up law enforcement officials are the ones who put their lives on the line to protect and to serve.

          Banning the pigs is a good idea.

          •  You speak a good truth, but I am (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            debedb, Rex Manning, Carib and Ting

            damned if I can figure out the pigs from the pearls.  Any ideas?  You do not know how bad that one injured me.  Warmest regards, Doc.

            Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

            by Translator on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:00:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've been lucky. (3+ / 0-)

              The only time I came close to being on the wrong end of a billy club was when a female sheriff's deputy decided to hassle me. Too long of a story to be interesting.

              I backed down and got out of there.

              Most of the time though, when I've been pulled over for instance, I treat the officer with respect. "Yes officer", "No officer" and so on.

              Every time, except for a couple, I got a lecture and a warning.

              Be respectful, recognize their authority and most of them will be 'pearls' (with an attitude). The ones who act like pigs anyway would have been pigs either way.

              If a bully with a badge and a gun targets you as a victim there's not much you can do about it. If you avoid antogonising every cop though you increase your chances of not getting a beating. Plus, if it's a small enough city you can build a rep as a solid citizen so if a 'pig' does screw with you other cops might just back you up. That won't work in a big city though probably.

          •  They even protect from the pigs (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            debedb, sarasson007, Rex Manning

            Police who don't commit crimes but hold to the "thin blue line" mentality, are imo no better than those who come out swinging.

            They're the enablers that let brutal police culture stay in place.

            the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

            by mijita on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:46:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That needs to be fixed for sure. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              pale cold

              A lot of that is fear based too.

              Fear of being outcast or called a traitor.

              I don't know how to fix it but it needs to be fixed.

              •  fear. (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                ichibon, FrankFrink, Rex Manning

                The media feared being labelled, so they cheered on the Iraq Occupation. A couple "Journalists" and one news anchor have said this, interestingly Katie Couric was one.

                A lot of Dems fear what the repubs will attack them and smear them with. (seems to me this is the case, and a lot of other people as well)

                If the cops fear the same thing from the other cops, and then we fear the cops...its pretty much over.

                My experience with police, is not so positive either. Its not a huge amount of experience, but I am a very white female, lived in a middle class environment, I don't break laws. I even use my cruise control in the car.

                Im scared.

                •  Me too. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  ichibon, pale cold

                  I have the luxury of being white and male yet I'm not confident that I won't be a victim of police brutality.

                  As for the fear of good cops standing up to bad cops, some have tried. Frank Serpico, for instance, was shot and nearly killed for trying to be a good cop.

        •  This is 100% bullshit... (6+ / 0-)

          With the abuse of power on the increase, this argument is getting really dull. They are desensitizing us to violence. These cops are are using this taser/stranglehold technique to murder people in public...no less than Nazis putting pistols to peoples heads. They asphyxiate the victim while he is struggling involuntarily from high voltage shock. Then they set about the PR work...desensitizing...promoting the "reasoned" explanation...and people like you help them.

          If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

          by phaktor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:12:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You make me laugh with your hyperbole. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            opendna, rockhound, phaktor

            How many people have been "murdered in public" since 2001?  I choose 2001 only because, if there were a start date for a police state, that would probably be it.

            So?  How many?

            And how many people's lives have been saved by good police work?  You do realize, of course, that there are no videos on YouTube of cops doing their jobs properly, so YouTube evidence, while distressing, doesn't really make your argument.

            Incidentally, with 3 years on the police review board, during which time I have taken a lot of shit from police for being "anti-cop", I think you may overestimate how much I help to create a police state.

            •  It doesn't always result (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mattman, pale cold

              in death, but it can be deadly, and they know it. The dishonestly about it is what I find appalling. The shock may usually be "non-lethal", but the lethality is in the restraint. Shocking an individual while holding them still in awkward positions interferes with breathing, and they can kill you quietly in these little calm looking "huddles", and they know it. I suspect there are many police who do good jobs. I am talking about an overall change in attitude in the past few years that is definitely not for the good.

              If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

              by phaktor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:27:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again, your argument contains no numbers. (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                opendna, rockhound

                If you want to argue that there exist some cops who have no business having authority over a dog, let alone masses of people, you'll get no disagreement from me.  I've met a few of them.

                If you want to talk about police states and overall attitudes, I'm going to ask you for statistics in support of your argument, and in lieu of those numbers, I'm going to call bullshit.  Otherwise you may as well be Miss Cleo, divining the truth by intuition.

                •  So (0+ / 0-)

                  if they've only murdered a dozen people that's okay? However, if it's in the hundreds it's a problem.  Ever consider you might be being an inconsiderate anti-civil liberties voice.  (I would say jerk, but that might be construed as personal.)

                  Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

                  by bythesea on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:02:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've considered both, in fact. (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound

                    And I wouldn't completely rule out either one, if you'd like to present the argument.  But this is not about me. :)

                    I'm thinking about doing the maximum good for the maximum number of people.  To put it in stark terms, if they kill 12 people but prevent the deaths of 13, that's a net gain, but nowhere near acceptable.  If they kill 12 people but prevent the deaths of a few hundred (a more likely estimate), that's still not acceptable, because not one person should be killed.  That's why we have to monitor police behavior.

                    But to conclude that because of these cases, therefore the very concept of law enforcement is bad (as some here conclude), that's the type of idiocy that a small but embarrassing segment of liberals believe in.

                •  I do not have to have (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  I

                  intuition to know that the incident reported here would never have seen the light of day if a bystander hadn't filmed it. Also, police departments control the generation and organization of data, as well as the statistics that are reported, so you are asking for evidence that is tainted. We don't know how many incidents like this occur, and we can't -- especially if the person doesn't die (even though they may be maimed, maiming doesn't make as big a hit with the MSM, especially the maiming of a "criminal"). Whenever such incredible power differential exists, evidence of the truth is very difficult to get to. There is little evidence available in police states. All the records are skewed in favor of the authority by default. This culture has been on a police/authority glorification binge for a long time, and there is little truth or evidence out there. The reason we are seeing more brutal treatment nowadays is that many police officers have become so comfortable with their unquestionable power that they no longer even try to hide abuse of it.

                  You are entirely correct to say that their are many good cops. I have met them and know them. What I am talking about is trends in behavior and attitudes, and those trends are becoming alarming. I had a police officer threaten to use a taser on me one time for no reason whatsoever. He just wanted to see the fear in my face.

                  The availability heuristic is surely at work here, and you are right that the public sees something as being more prevalent than it really is when the incidents are over-reported by media. But the abuse of authority emerging here is being sanctioned on many levels, and laws are being passed and court precedents set that allow unrestricted brutality. I just can't buy the argument that "all is well except for a few bad apples". If I must say, that is an intuition, but a well informed one.  

                  If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

                  by phaktor on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 06:03:23 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree with all of that. (0+ / 0-)

                    But to get back to my original question, what alternative do you propose?  Remember, please, that I was specifically responding to a comment that proposes getting rid of all cops.  I assume that you, by extension, agree with that; otherwise, I hope you can clarify what you meant when you called the question "100% bullshit."

    •  When they unlawfully made me open my door, (9+ / 0-)

      they did not Taser me.  They manhandled me and sat on the thick part of my back until two ribs came loose on the underside.  They are pigs.  I hate them.  Regards, Doc.

      Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

      by Translator on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:30:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tasers (12+ / 0-)

      In principle they are a good idea. The idea is to have an alternative to shooting a gun at someone. In practice however, they are often used far too casually, in circumstances that would not have merited using a gun.

      I would support banning them unless certain policies were enacted and enforced:

      As far as I know, when a police officer fires a gun, there is an investigation to see if this was proper. Have the same investigation whenever a Taser is used.

      If a given situation, the use of a gun would not be authorized, the use of a Taser is unauthorized.

      There must be real consequences and punishments for misuse of Tasers.

      Police officers must operate under the assumption that the Taser will cause cardiac arrest, and respond accordingly after the Taser is used. If they are unable to respond to a cardiac arrest, they cannot be armed with a Taser. If they are unwilling, they do not belong on the police force in the first place.

      It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

      by A Citizen on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:36:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Seeing them sit around wondering what to do, (13+ / 0-)

        instead of starting CPR, just crushes my heart. They might have saved him, maybe.

            Agreeing with you,
                Heather

        •  "Have you eh-ver had to knock on wood..." (0+ / 0-)

          /90's pop music reference

          No matter how much training you have, you really don't know how you'll handle it when you're looking down at a dead body. We'd all like to think we'd do something to save a life (like CPR), but most of us freeze.

          I have a few stories about that, but they're not appropriate here.

          --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

          by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:09:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Im sorry. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mattman, FrankFrink, fiddlingnero

            I cannot beleive that. And its always ok to disagree, so please just take it in the spirit in which it is written. :)
            You are saying that 4 police  officers, who have been given a potentially deadly weapon, should be (you haven't stated they should be given a pass so I shan't cast an aspersion......but you seem very much on that side of the fence as it were...) would all freeze? Despite their training, (I hope it is in their training) to always get aid to an injured person immediately?

            My first thought when I see an injured person is to help, or get help. I have no training.

            The police have training to give help, and get help.

            Airport security gets some responsibility here too. They were there, and they didn't call the airport medical people. YVR is a massive airport, international. They have them. The news is asking that here....

            •  Yes and No. (0+ / 0-)

              When watching the video I heard the calls for medical help. It obviously didn't get there in time. My experience is that airport paramedics take about 15 min for some reason. Sucks, but true.

              Police officers don't get regular life-saving training. They get it once in a while, maybe. More likely they get CPR training once at the academy, and that's it. Their role in the emergency response tree is generally to get there, call for help, and make the scene safe for paramedics.

              Moving on: which officer took responsibility for the medical emergency? My call: the one at the head taking the pulse. If you're in that position, you either act or get out of the way for someone who will. People freeze for all kinds of reasons: flashbacks to other traumas, fear, confusion, uncertainty, etc. If the person in that position is the boss, and the boss freezes, it takes one self righteous bastard of a rookie to kick him out of the way.

              Is it possible that 4 officers would all freeze up when faced with the possibility that they'd just killed someone? Yeah, I think that's possible.

              Do I believe that any 12 regular civilians would have actually helped? No way. Two or three might have called 911, but I don't think one of them would have started CPR. Evidence of that is right there in the video, IMHO.

              It's a virtual law of psychology (which offers a disgustingly large array of proof) that people in crowds are cowards and will always wait for someone else to help first.

              --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

              by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:03:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  RE "But the people using them are more dangerous" (0+ / 0-)

      There's only one solution.

      --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

      by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:14:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        FrankFrink

        Not gonna fall for that one. I have no interest in any form of law enforcement.

        In the same tone, I am positive that many of them aren't interested in my particular talents in life.

        Add to that I'm now old, and my particular health would never have allowed it even when I was younger. So. There ya go eh?

        It came to me as much the same as a chickenhawk comment. But Im not sending people to die.

        :)

        •  So basically (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rockhound

          You are not able to physically defend yourself or another now, nor were you ever able to. You have not knowledge of the force required to subdue an irate 250-300 lbs man, or familiarity with the tools which might be used to do so with less risk to the man and the officers.

          But your contribution to public safety is to encourage an environment where law enforcement officers are so reviled that no moral, self-respecting young person would seek it as a career.

          Can you explain how your approach will ultimately improve the quality of policing?

          --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

          by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:45:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My approach (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            opendna, fiddlingnero

            is to spotlight injustices that are so severe they are reviled.
            If the police are supposed to enforce the law, they also have to abide by them.

            You, are off in left field. And on that. goodnight. There would be absolutely no point in continuing.

            :)

          •  Did you watch the video? (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            opendna, mattman, fiddlingnero, pale cold

            Mr. Dzeikanski pose NO threat. He did not weigh 250-300 lbs and he was imbolized by a taser. And it takes 4 of then to dogpile hime AFTER being tasered?

            Sorry, that post of yours is utter BS.

            Sorry, opendna, you should do a bit more research on the massive problems that have been occuring with teh RCMP for over the past two decades.

            I believe pale cold knows me well enough that I can speak for her as well as myself. The RCMP WAS a national police force that we Canadians all believed to be credible, fair, and effective. Recent actions have raised serious questions. Sounds as if you don't seem to think there are? Why or why not?

            Let me phrase it this way. I want my RCMP back.

            I find your smear of pale cold offensive.

            Which smear? This one.

            But your contribution to public safety is to encourage an environment where law enforcement officers are so reviled that no moral, self-respecting young person would seek it as a career.

            Horse Apples!

            The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

            by FrankFrink on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:54:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dudley Do-Right vs Sargent Pepper (0+ / 0-)

              You seem to be implying a policy change that has totally changed the character of the RCMP. If so, I'm ignorant of what that policy change was.

              Everything I need to know about how law enforcement has changed in Canada over the last 20 years can be learned from a single night in downtown Chilliwack.

              The taser incident at YVR raises questions, hell yes. So does the gang war, three break-ins in a week (two in 24 hours), East Hastings, Hells Angels in Hope, and Surrey's decline from the car theft capital of North America to just #2. When someone sent two RCMP officers to the hospital with a chain to the head, and the police apologized for shooting him, that too raised questions.

              If you want your old RCMP back you'd better start recruiting people you'd want to be officers, a lot of them. One way to start might be to treat them like they deserve a little respect and appreciation.

              --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

              by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:49:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hows this? (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                opendna, FrankFrink

                Another way would be to make damned sure the ones who did this don't get away with it, and that the ones in charge who have been trying so hard to hide it, are sought out and fired.
                In the real world that's the best thing to do.

                Between all the insults....(the one where you attempted to label me as a chickenhawk was glaringly stupid) You have really said nothing except that we should all just hush, the poor men are just doing their jobs?

                Im very vexed at your whole shtick here, you are saying that this should be ignored and excuses made cause it'll hurt recruitment?
                Now that's such a blue dog thing to say.....

                As for the anger here at police actions, other people have other experiences than you obviously. It does not make their options less valid, and it does not negate the need to clean up the police force.

                Im done. If you want to play la la and just allow stuff like this to slide, (collateral damage?) thats your problem.

                •  No, you're right. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  fiddlingnero, pale cold

                  Sorry I laid into you. It was way out of line.

                  When I watched that video, I saw a train wreck in slow motion. I looks to me like those officers were over-trained and under-experienced, given ineffective and dangerous equipment (tasers), trained to use it when we know it's dangerous (with extremely emotionally excited people), and poorly led by the senior officers. Medical help was non-existent, airline/airport customer service failed (interpreter PLEASE), bystanders were useless, airport security probably made things worse by giving the RCMP an image of wanton violence which was not present, and the PR machines have definitely created the impression of a cover-up.

                  Seeing systemic failures blamed on individuals just flips my lid. I guess I've seen too much of the Bush-style sacrificing of the front line keep cool. I just need to stay out of "police diaries". They're almost as bad for me as immigration diaries.

                  We wasted several lives that day in YVR. Good on you for trying to make some good come of it. I wish you the best in that uphill battle.

                  --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

                  by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 05:25:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Indulge me for a moment. Let's play a game (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mattman, tommymet

            It's a game I can play all night.

            Critique not a politician unless you have ever actually held political office yourself.

            Critique not a film unless you have evr created a film yourself.

            Critique not a piece of music unless you have actually ever composed one yourself.

            Critque not the professional athlete unless you have been a professional athlete yourself.

            Critique not a book unless you have ever written one yourself.

            Critique not a journalist or pundit unless you have been one yourself.

            Anyone can play...

            The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

            by FrankFrink on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:34:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Round two... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              rockhound

              If all politicians are crooks, only crooks will want to be politicians.

              If all films are pornographic, only pornographers will make films.

              If all professional athletes are thugs, only thugs will be professional athletes.

              Good luck finding good people to join the RCMP.

              --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

              by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:52:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm..... those WERE the people using them (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mattman, fiddlingnero, pale cold

        And as I posted lower downthread, the RCMP in BC have had 267 people die either in their custody or in 'pursuit', most of thsoe not taser related.

        The problem actually IS the RCMP. 267 since 1992 is more than a pattern. It's institutionalized. And there is no other process of review in BC except by?.... you got it, the RCMP themselves.

        Sorry, but I really don't understand why you would post that link.

        If you're attempting to say 'walk a mile in their shoes'... well, you missed by that same mile.

        The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

        by FrankFrink on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:48:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If the only reason to be a cop (0+ / 0-)

          is you get to carry a gun for a living, then only people who want to carry the gun will want to be a cop.

          If you think a civilian oversight board will help, mitzvahs. The American experience shows that it'll be another way to get the CYA/cover-up everyone is convinced is inevitable.

          'walk a mile'? Hell yes. Four years mandatory civil service for everyone: pick your agency.

          --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

          by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:00:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This just breaks my heart. (14+ / 0-)

    I've got an appointment with Peter Julian on Friday, and this will be one of the things I discuss with him.

           Heartbroken Hugs,
               Heather

  •  Cops are inflicting "Punishment" (15+ / 1-)

    Which is not their fucking job. That's why we have courts and judges.

    They're not morally capable of deciding or dispensing anyone's punishment. Look at how many incidents we're seeing since this device hit the mainstream - it's a cop's dream, non-lethal punishments dispensed without booking, arraignment, or adjudication!

    Perfect for the sadists that primarily occupy this "profession."

    You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty.
    - Jessica Mitford

    by Swampfoot on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:12:08 PM PDT

    •  Idiocy like this comment (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rockhound, Noisy Democrat, phaktor

      obscures the real abuses perpetrated by the minority of sadistic cops by giving them the excuse that the only people who complain about police abuse are those who just hate all police.

      If you're going to claim that most cops are sadists, you should back it up with some sort of factual explanation.  Air quotes around the word "profession" do not make an argument.

      I really hope you are never in a position to need help from the cops, because you're going to feel like an asshole if you do.

      •  Well I hope I never get the kind of help (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        peace voter, marina, phaktor

        that this guy got from the cops. Boy, I'd sure feel like an asshole, being threatened with fabricated charges.

        You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty.
        - Jessica Mitford

        by Swampfoot on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:30:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As someone... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          peace voter, phaktor

          ...who has had their car broken into while it was parked in a commuter parking lot I have to say that I actually like that the cop came in and asked they guy what he was doing there.

        •  Well, if you ever get stabbed (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, rockhound, phaktor

          by an anonymous mugger and the cops catch and jail the guy two days later, maybe you'll appreciate the good that most of them do.

          But yes, if you're one of the relatively small number of people who fall victim to bad cops, you'll have good reason to complain.

          •  Sad to say, even now, experience (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            I

            with the cops and how we see them is colored by race.

            I've seen my brother and father stopped for the crime of "driving while brown" a few too many times to see this cops abusing power as the exception.

            Do most cops abuse?  No.  Do they cover for the abusers?  In my experience, yes.

            the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

            by mijita on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:41:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The cops covering for each other ... yes. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              FrankFrink

              That, in my experience, is a much more widespread problem than the abuse itself.  Whether that rises to the level of damning the entire profession, I'm not sure -- but it certainly does go against the concept of justice.

      •  Until the thugs are weeded out... (6+ / 0-)

        ...from real, honest to goodness law enforcement officers...I think it's fair to put "profession" in quotes.

        Long time ago anyone could hang out a shingle and call themselves a doctor. There were some good doctors back then but there were a lot of quacks too so the "profession" of doctor was looked down on.

        •  That's a good point, (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          opendna, rockhound, phaktor, Rex Manning

          but the bad apples that exist shouldn't give us reason to denigrate the entire profession.

          •  Don't bother. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            rockhound, I

            Some people hate cops and will never accept that there is such a thing as a good cop. They feel that cops do bad things, but cannot think about what they would do if charged with the same responsibilities.

            They will never step up and do service in law enforcement, but they will always welcome the opportunity to slander anyone who does.

            --- "opendna is high and just makin' shit up outta nowhere." - greenskeeper

            by opendna on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:01:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, I engage in pointless behavior like this (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              opendna, rockhound

              from time to time.  I think it's just to keep myself honest.  I have noticed that this is one of those issues where all of a sudden the black-and-white perspective of George Bush becomes acceptable to a lot of commenters here.

          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

            Why don't you ask an attorney, be it prosecutor (who see their cases demolished by idiotic thugs) or a defense attorney (who see their clients' rights violated and innocents abused) about that?  Sure there are good cops, but the bad ones are not a "few bad apples" and it's PC bullshit to insist so.

            Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

            by bythesea on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:08:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I could do that. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              rockhound

              And if I asked 10 attorneys, I might be told about 1 bad cop, or 2, or 20.  In no way would that demonstrate that the majority of cops are bad.  As they say, data is not the plural of anecdote.

              •  I never meant to say (0+ / 0-)

                that the majority were, but a "few bad apples" implies it's a rare exception.  It's not that rare, but I don't think it's the majority.  

                Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

                by bythesea on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:09:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you're gonna jump into a thread, (0+ / 0-)

                  you should trouble yourself to learn what's going on in the thread.

                  Swampfoot said: Perfect for the sadists that primarily occupy this "profession."  That's what I was responding to.

                  •  Okay, perhaps so (0+ / 0-)

                    I apologize for implying you are a jerk (I have no way of knowing that of course), but I do think your attitude about this issue seems pretty authoritarian.  I may have overreacted, but understand that my roommate and some friends were beaten and pepper-sprayed during a peaceful protest only a few days ago.  I do think these weapons (tasers and pepperspray) are meant to be a non-lethal substitute for actually shooting or beating someone, not as punishment for someone who is passively resisting or won't shut up, for example.  That is an abuse, whether police officers look at it that way or not.  

                    Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

                    by bythesea on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:30:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  I haven't met a cop (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        RabidNation, debedb, pale cold

        willing to help anybody in long time. In fact, they get mad and act insulted if you ask for help. They see themselves as having only one job -- violently subduing "criminals" and controlling peoples' behavior with threat. They no longer see themselves as public servants, and resent the more human duties that have always been associated with police.

        If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

        by phaktor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:19:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Can I ask where you live? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, phaktor

          Seems like the cops in your town are pretty far outside the norm, in my experience.

          By the way, you're painting with a really, really broad brush.  Whenever I see someone using non-specific words like "they" or "everybody" I get suspicious, because it usually indicates a vague feeling rather than any specific evidence.

          •  A long way away. (0+ / 0-)

            But this is a universal problem. It seems the police don't have any problems with generalizing about others, by the way.

            If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

            by phaktor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:31:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This seems like a universal (0+ / 0-)

            police startegy. When confronted with someone who disagrees with you, ask for their ID. That'll shut'm up!

            If McCain makes the next Supreme Court appointment, we will think the Bush days were the good old days!

            by phaktor on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 06:15:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wait .... what? (0+ / 0-)

              1. Are you suggesting I'm a cop?
              1. Are you calling me a bully?
              1. Are you getting your panties in a twist because I called you on a bullshit statement?
              1. Most importantly, are you really equating a request for more information on a blog with police intimidation, which is real and nothing to trivialize in the way you're doing?
  •  Did anyone do CPR? I'm pretty overwhelmed (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    opendna, mattman, FrankFrink, pale cold

    right now after watching even the third video after the first two.

    Did anyone do CPR and I missed it? Small comfort that would
    be, but I didn't even see that.

    It is never too late to be what you might have been [especially now] George Eliot

    by begone on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:43:05 PM PDT

  •  Worse incident; taser, shoot car wreck victim (7+ / 0-)

    DKos comment here:
    http://www.dailykos.com/...
    Leads to 5 videos, of police being interviewed about teh incident.

    They came upon a naked accident victim, young man, who was bloody from head to toe, had burned skin hanging off him, glass shards in his body, sitting at side of road... In shock, "catatonic" like state...

    and start ordering him to lie down...

    then start tasering him when he doesn't.

    And eventually kill him.

    And say they can't think of a thing they did wrong.

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:17:44 AM PDT

  •  Ah yes, the VPD in action once again... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    opendna

    Vancouver's police force is getting quite the reputation for their shoot/beat/taser first and ask questions later approach.  As far as the video, I can't bring myself to watch it, I heard the screams on tv and that was enough for me.  The real damning thing in this was not administering CPR and not calling in Medical help from the airport.  This man's life could have been saved.  
    This could be an interesting weekend.  The Lions play Saskatchewan in the CFL's Western Conference Final at 1:30 at BC Place Stadium, and then the Canucks play next door at GM Place at 5 (which I have tickets for).  Let's hope the whole thing goes well...

    Oh yeah, GO LIONS!  

    http://www.myspace.com/mass_hypnosis new podcasts weekly http://mhmetalradio.blogspot.com

    by mhradio on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 06:10:26 AM PDT

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