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Now don't be too shocked as the cowardly Democratic Senate caucus weighs caving on Iraq timeline -- a timeline, remember, that isn't even binding. Just a "goal".

A few days ago, we had this:

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday that Democrats won't approve more money for the Iraq war this year unless President Bush agrees to begin bringing troops home.

By the end of the week, the House and Senate planned to vote on a $50 billion measure for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill would require Bush to initiate troop withdrawals immediately with the goal of ending combat by December 2008.

If Bush vetoes the bill, "then the president won't get his $50 billion," Reid, D-Nev., told reporters at a Capitol Hill news conference.

Now we have this:

Senate Democrats appear ready to omit Iraq withdrawal timelines from a supplemental spending bill in hopes of clearing in December funds for the troops — but House leaders have no intentions of following suit.

The next partial-year war funding bill, although by no means finalized, would still include the Democrats’ call for a change of mission in Iraq, but without controversial withdrawal dates — a move that is intended to draw enough Republican votes to advance legislation in the Senate.

I wrote in Newsweek:

If Reid and Pelosi stand firm they will finally fulfill one of their key 2006 campaign promises, proving they have the courage to stand tough for what they believe, while giving the vast majority of the American people what they want.

If they yield they will reinforce perceptions of Democratic weakness. Worse, they will be siding with an unpopular president and an unpopular Republican Party over an unpopular war, and their own popularity will suffer as a result.

The options to those of us outside of the Beltway are so obvious it's truly unfathomable that we are still left wondering which path the Democrats will take.

I guess Reid and the Senate caucus have chosen weakness and unpopularity. They curiously want to own this war along with the Republicans.

Pelosi and the House are still standing firm on this, and they alone could put an end to this insanity. Reid and the Senate are hopeless on this issue. They really are too weak to stand for what's right and popular. So it's up to the House to make its stand.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:20 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •   I hope Pelosi (12+ / 0-)

    Stays Strong against this, enough is enough. I can understand they are trying to be sincere and not want to look like they are trying to act against men and women in uniform, but Bush needs to stop getting 100% of what he asks for. The surge has only just slightly worked, I'll admit, but Iraq is still just as bad as it has been.

  •  "As I wrote in Newsweek" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oibme, mcartri, mommyof3, HoosierDeb

    Sounds great, but I have a feeling that Reid and Pelosi read Newsweek as often as they do this site, which is to say, never anymore.

  •  Pelosi.. standing firm.. (9+ / 0-)

    I-I know those words individually but they don't make sense when put together.

    Just wait. They'll cave in somehow.

    •  Yeah - how about a deadline to withdraw the surge (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nightsweat, mffarrow, HoosierDeb

      since they're coming home anyway within 6 months. They'll look like they're going forward when they're not... congressional moonwalking. Guess they're just waiting for things to get bad enough again to pull out... which means when things are bad, we can't get out because Bush will blame them, and when they're good, we can't get out because Bush will look good.

    •  Dems are the sleight, Cheney is the hand ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade

      ... and the whole is just a magic show put on for the slack-jawed dweebs gathered under the hoax-me tent.

      (A hand in the Bush is worth giving the bird for.)

      Bush and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS. What part of "Aggressive War is a war crime" and "Torture is a crime against humanity" can you argue against?

      by Yellow Canary on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:37:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm baffled by all of this (18+ / 0-)

    Why is Harry Reid making these very strong and unmistakable initial statements, over and over and over again, if he has no intention of even pretending to pretend to stick to them?

    This is like putting a 'kick me' sign on your own back.

    There is no upside to behaving this way.

    Just like there was no upside to the MoveOn.org vote.

    None.

    It's as if they are assuming the Democratic gains will be so great in 2008 that they can get away with anything and benefit.

    •  To be clear (6+ / 0-)

      This is a repeat performance of behavior so stunningly inept it makes no sense politically. Even if Harry Reid is a lousy Senate leader, this is leaving yourself open to humiliation in ways that bush league aldermen in tiny towns don't do.


      I was once very comfortable with Harry Reid because I bought the myths hook, line, and sinker, and now I am a critic.

      But this is starting to go beyond 'maybe he's not as good as hyped' into 'maybe he's not just living up to the hype, but maybe he's a total and complete fraud' territory.

      He's unambiguously stating he's taking a black and white hardline position. And then, having given himself no room politically to back away from these positions without looking like a fool.... he's not just backing away from them, he's abandoning them.

      •  Is this sane behavior? (0+ / 0-)

        Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time."

        by Helpless on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:34:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think (I hope) that Harry Reid is (0+ / 0-)

        counting on this funding bill to never pass the House without limits on the chimp, thus gumming up the works indefinitely.

        The Lieberman-Feinstein-Nelson wing is simply too effed up to ever do the right thing; Reid therefore needs for the House to do the heavy lifting re opposing Bush on Iraq.

      •  I've thought that too (0+ / 0-)

        And then I wonder, if Reid is indeed a fraud, why at least some of his caucus (i.e. Feingold, Kennedy, Dodd) aren't raising holy hell over him and his moves?

        "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

        by gsbadj on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 11:58:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Why is putting controversial "votes" aside for (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RichM, vacantlook, mffarrow, HoosierDeb

      the foreseeable future and then rushing them to vote the following morning?  It is hard to figure out "who" he is working for.  It certainly isn't the American people or our "ruined" military.

      •  Or the Mukasey vote for example: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RichM, mjd in florida

        He held that vote as late as possible, like the AG was in a rush and had to be appointed, and I believe it was done so that the Democratic candidates for President couldn't get back to vote on it if they got word because there was a chance that many of them would vote 'no'.

        He cut a deal with the GOP on separating the Iraq war money from the Defense money in exchange for holding a vote on the AG ASAP.

        Now we all know why the GOP agreed to this, they never believed it would amount to a stoppage in the war funding, so they agreed to the separation and assumed it wouldn't work for the Democratic majority no matter what.

        The only way this deal made sense is if it was going to lead to a real fight on the war, because it pretty much paved the way with rose pedals for a winning AG vote for the GOP.

        Then, after behaving in a way that allowed "Hmmm... Waterboarding? Hmmmmm" to become AG, he wussed out on holding the line on the Iraq war money he supposedly fought to separate out to put up a fight on?

        That was the logic behind caving on the AG, to get a 'fight' going over the war funding.

        And then.... without a single Bushie firing a shot... it's already looking over? When every cable news anchor is going to hit us with "that's 41 failed attempts to...." frames studded with inaccuracies about the GOP's behavior in all of this?

        It's madness.

        I think we have discovered the "Domino Theory" of caving. Caves tip other caves and the country is run by the minority we just booted out.

        Heaven help us if the traditional media does 2000 us again and the GOP election rigging services help slick Rudy Guiliani up so much on top of it that he ends up in the White House after a controversial "election".

        We will have internment camps before we know it.

        •  This comment... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mjd in florida

          Made my blood run cold - because I believe this is exactly where we are heading.  You think things are bad now?  Wait until the whole 'neocon' philosophy is affirmed by the election of St. Rudy.  Either the Dems are too stupid to believe this can really happen or they are actively pushing for it.  There is no other explanation.  They control which legislation comes to the floor and which doesn't.  Yet they continuously choose to go with the most Administration Friendly legislation.  I think we are coming down to a real choice here.  Either we stop all this and choose to become 'Happy USA #1 Americans' or we look for a way out.  The rest is just pissing in the wind.

          "Frankly, you epitomize weak. Your every pore exudes feebleness. You *are* surrender monkeys." - Meteor Blades to Capitulation Dems

          by RichM on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:54:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  No Upside (0+ / 0-)

      A reed bending with every puff of air.

      Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time."

      by Helpless on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:30:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Major Danby had a diary on Friday (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mcartri

      that listed some of the points we should consider when trying to understand why the Congress persists in flouting the wishes of Americans.

      It's a good diary, and it really made me think.  But I'm unconvinced: all that's happening is that the Democrats are going to inherit a war, and no matter what we do or when we do it, the Right-Wing Wurlitzer is going to slam us for it.

      I say let's get out now and deal with the noise machine now.  The more we wait, the more young people die.

      Je suis inondé de déesses

      by Marc in KS on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:33:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yup... (0+ / 0-)

      And there is a WaPo article today talking about how the Bush Administration is 'regaining their footing' after Gonzales, 'the surge', etc.  The media is always going to play for the administration.  Always.  Why is that so goddamn hard to understand?  The only way to stay ahead is to keep them off-balance.  Dubya was drowning and Reid saw fit to hand him a life-line.  I'm beginning to believe it is on purpose.

      "Frankly, you epitomize weak. Your every pore exudes feebleness. You *are* surrender monkeys." - Meteor Blades to Capitulation Dems

      by RichM on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:44:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  why do they give him everything he wants? (14+ / 0-)

    Why or Why do Senate Democrats give Bush everything he wants? His poll numbers are horrid as are poll numbers for most Republicans? What part are they missing?
    What are they so afraid of? The majority of America wants the troops home or at the very least, a deadline or timeline.
    What is their problem?

    Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis. Impeachment is the Cure for a Constitutional Crisis.-John Nichols

    by wishingwell on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:21:20 AM PST

    •  The Inside-the-Beltway Bubble. (4+ / 0-)

      Mush like W's bubble of self-delusion at the White House, the Congress seems to suffer from believing that Bush is powerful and people still believe to GOP spin-meisters, since that's what they hear from all the other people inside thier bubble.

      This is why I see primary challenges to our less-dependable incumbents as a good thing. The more elected reps who are fresh from reality-land, the better. More Webbs and fewer Reids. More Dems willing to say what they really believe and fewer who will apologize for anyone who points out the facts about this administration.

      "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

      by aggressiveprogressive on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:29:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "They" Don't Give Him Everything He Wants (0+ / 0-)

      "They" is used continually on this site and the media in general as "The Democrats". The "They" are the Corporate Democrats, who are owned by the same lobbyists as the GOP. Can you imagine a Corporate Democrat, being Speaker of the House, and saying, "Impeachment is off the table"? Why yes, Nancy said it very well.

  •  Excellent points, Kos. (6+ / 0-)

    Pelosi is doing a lot better than Reid.  The Senate Democrats, with some exceptions, have been truly disappointing.

    "The truth is the system in Washington is corrupt." John Edwards

    by TomP on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:23:05 AM PST

  •  The days of a strong legislature (9+ / 0-)

    are long past.

    It seems we have accepted elected executives who run everything for now, and in a generation or so, will expect us to simply bow down before the non-elected executive.

    Our founding fathers would weep at what we have become.  The power of the purse is the most powerful power of all, and yet our Congress cannot seem to find the purse-strings.

  •  And I wrote at the time... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HoosierDeb
  •  A while ago I was (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SteamPunkX, HoosierDeb

    so feed up with this from being in the minority, I was hopeful.  Sometimes I wish the Green Party replaced the Democratic one, at least they have balls/backbone/courage and governed well when put in charge in Europe. Maybe disillusionment will fade tomorrow.

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by pleasedontbefake on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:23:17 AM PST

  •  Wow, they can't even stick with a symbolic show (6+ / 0-)

    of strength.  The last time the Senate did anything that resembled a showing of desire to end the war was approving the Biden-Gelb plan.  And that was a non-binding resolution that wasn't even passed as a stand-alone.

    Man, I'm pumped now.

  •  [Insert Spine Joke Here] (4+ / 0-)

    It's not even worth being creatively snarky about.

    Just have to wait until we can vote them out, spineless one by spineless one.

    Be humble and respectable, but above all just be flexible. -- Gumby

    by SteamPunkX on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:23:42 AM PST

    •  It starts at the state level (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SteamPunkX

      Art Torres, head of the CA Democratic Party yesterday on the defeat of the call to censure DiFi:

      "It is not worthy of a censure.  Send your letters to her, send your petitions to her.  Let her know how you feel about these issues."

      We need to replace the leadership of the CA Dem Party.

      Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time."

      by Helpless on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:42:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now, ironically (12+ / 0-)

    given the defeatism in that chamber, four members of the Senate on our side are currently running for the top job.

    How about some leadership now?

    "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

    by MBNYC on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:24:46 AM PST

    •  Excellent point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      Clinton, Obama, Biden & Dodd need to be out front on what is the number one issue facing America today. Watch them cower & hide in the corner, simply disgusting. Tell you what, I am supporting Edwards right now but I will contribute money to the next one of these four that takes the lead here.

      Without a timeline in their bill it needs to be filibustered by one of these four.

      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

        Because as I recall, Edwards wasn't exactly pounding the pavement in the Senate while he was running for President in '04.  Did he filibuster anything then?  Do we have to go over how many votes he missed?

        It's easy for Edwards supporters current Senators for "not doing their job."  Edwards doesn't have a day job.  Remember that 1) As Edwards knew in '04, you can't run for President from the Senate floor, and 2) 4 Senators can't carry a filibuster.

        I won't make mention of the other three for now, but I have a feeling that the Obama supporters will take exception to the notion that he should abandon Iowa for the next two weeks to provide one extra vote against Iraq funding.  If his vote will be decisive, I'm sure that he and the other Democrats will be there.  If not, you can't expect them to just cede the Presidential race to Edwards and Richardson.

        •  It's not just a filibuster (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          flatford39

          and I'm specifically not trying to slam Obama. What I'm looking for is leadership. These guys have the megaphone, they are in practical terms the leaders of our party. If they wanted the Senate to stop this, I think they could. That is my point.

          "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

          by MBNYC on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:44:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Obama trails Hillary in Iowa (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pondite, flatford39

          What he's done so far hasn't worked.

          Maybe he should try something different.  There comes a time when triangulating and compromise doesn't work.  Some things are binary.  Maybe he could win Iowa if he showed some leadership in his anti-war position.

          Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time."

          by Helpless on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:01:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HoosierDeb

    It does go to show that they need a larger majority in the Senate...and probably a new Senate Majority leader as well...

  •  Harry Reid Is a Disaster (8+ / 0-)

    What on earth could he be thinking? Why make empty threats just to reinforce the impression of weakness among Senate Democrats?! Is he single-handedly on a mission to destroy the party?!

    He should have just kept his mouth shut if he didn't have his ducks in a row on this one.

    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H.L. Mencken

    by SignalSuzie on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:25:20 AM PST

  •  corruption, not weakness (9+ / 0-)

    follow the money. At some level, that is what this is about.

    fouls, excesses and immoderate behaviors will not be ignored at Over the line, Smokey!.

    by seesdifferent on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:26:02 AM PST

  •  How are we going to get back our country? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HoosierDeb

    If Democrats win the Presidency and both houses of Congress, we must insist on election reform.   The money has to get out of the process.

    If we can't get election reform, it's over.

    Capitalism without limits will be the end of Democracy.

    by Pink Lady on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:26:19 AM PST

  •  If they were going to do this (5+ / 0-)

    they would have been better of saying up front they were not insisting on this. But they rattle their sabers, and charge out the fort and then cowardly march back  with their swords broken and the patches ripped off their uniform.

    They are embarrassing themselves and us. But that doesn't matter. They are prolonging an unnecessary war and keeping soldiers away from their families and in harms way. That does matter.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:26:22 AM PST

  •  I think that they've given up doing anything (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Spathiphyllum, Prof Dave, HoosierDeb

    to end the war until 2009.

    I don't agree, but I think the mentality amongst the Dem politicians in Washington seems to be that the President is fucking crazy, they have no idea what he'll do if they actually call his bluff, so they are going to act like they oppose him, but keep giving him mostly what he wants, at least until a large number of Republicans bail on him.

    "Fired Up!" "Ready To Go!" Obama '08

    by bawbie on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:27:09 AM PST

    •  We can't wait until 2009 - Iran looms (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dss

      Unless Bush's authority to wage war is challenged, checked, and/or cut off by more extreme measures (e.g. impeachment), he's going to waltz us straight into Iran and that is going to completely upset the balance in the 2008 elections as he plays the American electorate for xenophobic idiots again.

      Watch out.  These traitors will do anything to win.

      Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. - Ayn Rand

      by CA Libertarian on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:38:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I felt so good the day after election day 2006 (10+ / 0-)

    That made the letdown feel even worse.

    I now hate to read about what the Democratic Congress did, as much as I used to hate reading about the Republican Congress.

    The religious right stole homeschooling. We want it back.

    by red state liberal on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:28:19 AM PST

  •  Good luck with House...we've got 60 Democrats (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri, KenLeft, HoosierDeb

    or so who are Bush Bluedogs and will likely vote with Republicans as they did last time to send Bush a blank check.

    We need to hold them firmly in line by being outside their offices in the Districts saying no to a blank check.  Otherwise, it's deja vu all over again.

  •  Call Reid's office NOW (5+ / 0-)

    I just did that and was told they would "pass it on."

  •  Whatever happened to... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flatford39, vacantlook

    Give 'em Hell, Harry?

    His newsletter is titled that way but it seems "the buck" never gets anywhere near him before it stops. He's no Harry Truman, for sure!

    "Cave in, Harry" is more appropriate.

    "What a peaceful world it would be if Barbara had aborted!"

    by DevonTexas on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:30:05 AM PST

  •  What is the plan for the Iraqi Government? (0+ / 0-)

    THAT is what we should be pushing for since that is the point of all of this.

    Bush has no plan so that is what needs to be highlighted.

  •  Jeebus... (5+ / 0-)

    You'd think we were asking them to cure cancer.

    Just don't fall down the stairs is all we're asking.

    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday that Democrats won't approve more money for the Iraq war this year unless President Bush agrees to begin bringing troops home.

    This year. This year. This year.

    Congress is off for two weeks right now. They don't come back until Decmeber 3rd. They're probably gonna be outta here again two weeks after that.

    Just don't do anything stupid for two damned weeks.

    We hope you stay non-stupid after that, too, of course. But if you can't even back up your own words for two weeks, you should just let the rest of us have the oxygen.

  •  Note to Harry Reid: (7+ / 0-)

    Spine

    -6.88 -6.31

    "They're all crazy. They're all crazy except you and me. Sometimes I have me doubts about you." -- Garrett Fort

    by Spathiphyllum on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:32:34 AM PST

  •  70-80% of the American People want us out NOW! (0+ / 0-)

    Why is Senator Reid deaf to our cries? How long do the Senate Dems expect people powered progressives to wait to get out of Iraq and to give LGBT Americans their fundamental marital rights? This makes no sense! We need to storm the gates of the Senate with bug eyed enthusiasm and show them we're tired of being tender, like our leader Mr. Kos, now is the time to get tough!

  •  The branch of government that cried "wolf" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Spathiphyllum, phonegery

    Seriously, this is getting pretty tiring.

    Will somebody remind these cretins that playing this stupid game over and over again and then backing down is not particularly beneficial for their credibility (either with other branches of government or with their constituents)?

    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. - Ayn Rand

    by CA Libertarian on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:35:38 AM PST

  •  1 Party (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri, Bobjack23, phonegery, slowheels

    I would beg to differ. I dont think Pelosi and Reid caving into Cheney shows Democratic weakness, I think it shows colusion-or that there is 1 party.
    If Democrats cant impeach, cant end the war, cant investigate war profiteering, cant investigate torture, cant end torture, cant bring integrity to our governement I THINK it shows the need for a second party.
    Lets be honest, what have democrats done to bring justice? Have they had hearings about PRE 9-11 intelligence that was ignored? Have they asked WW2 vets if waterboarding is torture? Have they asked VietNam War vets if 'Extreme Tempeture' or position holding is torture? Have they asked or slightly inquired if pre Iraq intelligence was false?
    What have democrats done to show this country justice still exists? Have they held the White House accountable any more than Republicans would have?
    Have they even made an attempt to recind the oppresive bankruptcy law rammed through by Republicans? Have they even made it an issue,since if they did they may lose campaign contributions?

    I dont believe the questions is 'can Democrats be strong?', I do believe the question is "Can Democrats show there is more than 1 party?"
    Have they even debated Kucinnich's healthcare bill?
    F.NO! They wont even talk about it from fear of upsetting Wal Mart's candidate.

    Its time for a second party.

  •  If they vote on it tomorrow, I'll win (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri

    I bet they'd capitulate by Tuesday. I figured they would try to get this piece of legislation out of the way before Wednesday because there will not be too much business transpiring then. Most Senators will either be heading back home or at the bar by noon for happy hour pre-Thanksgiving partying. Well, no one took me up on my wager though.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:36:36 AM PST

  •  great subject, great timing for your great (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri

    (and first) Newsweek column. a belated congratulations.

  •  gutless wonders (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri

    it's really dispiriting...is there any chance of a senate insurgency to take out reid and get a majority leader with enough cajones (metaphorically, if the leader is a woman) to do what needs to be done?  i'd love for jim webb to be majority leader.

  •  Come on, Dems. Just say no (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcartri

    to endless war.

    I remember Bush's stupid smirk when he said, "This is going to be a long war."  He knew that no one would stop him.

    -6.88, -6.72. The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

    by Lucky Ducky on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:39:26 AM PST

  •  To House and Senate Democrats: (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joon, jre2k8, Spathiphyllum, mcartri, phonegery

    How HOW HOW do you STILL not understand that the public will back you if you stand up to the Executive?  Over 70% of Americans want our engagement in Iraq to be over, done, ended.  Honestly, how hard is it to stand up to a President THIS unpopular?  Of COURSE some ignoramus' will go on the news channels and whine and complain about how this is "hurting the troops" and how the Democrats are "weak on national security" and all of that.  Ignore them.  Do your job.  Do what is right.  It will pay off for both you politically (which is unfortunately the most important thing for some of you) AND for our nation as a whole.

  •  Pelosi... (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MadEye, jre2k8, Pym, oibme, Spathiphyllum, mcartri

    Will cave the Friday before the Christmas break.  Take it to the bank.

    "Frankly, you epitomize weak. Your every pore exudes feebleness. You *are* surrender monkeys." - Meteor Blades to Capitulation Dems

    by RichM on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:39:42 AM PST

  •  This could be their strategy (0+ / 0-)

    And I am making all this up, but this could be their goal:

    They may want to hold off ending the war until close to the 2008 elections. That way they can reap the benefits of ending this war closer to election time.

    Also, maybe they want to keep the war going just so that they can use it as a campaign slogan in 2008. 'Vote for me and I'll end the war'.

    Its kindof like abortion or gay rights for republicans. They campaign on ending them, but on some level they have to realize that once they do end them, millions of people will lose motivation to vote for them. If politicians deliver on too many promises, people lose motivation to vote for them in the future.

    So they campaign and say 'vote for me and I'll end abortion and gay rights' and when they get in office nothing is done.

    Perhaps that is their strategy on the war. If so, and again I am making this all up, they suck.

    Or perhaps they seriously believe if they acquiesce to the GOP that FoxNews and talk radio will be nice to them.

    Tell it to Harold Ford. He is a republican-lite as you can get and still got ripped to shreds by FoxNews.

    Clinton stood up to the GOP in the 90s. The government eventually got shutdown. But the public sided with CLinton. It is time for the dems to show some balls. if it means shutting down the war for a few weeks, so be it. I doubt it'll make people change their mind on this war that most of us realize was thought up by chickenhaws and promoted on lies, politics & fearmongering.

    We won't think you don't "support the troops" (I hate that phrase, so orwellian) just because you want to end a war that is driving rates of suicide, mental illness and desertion among soldiers to record high levels.

    We will think you don't support them if you keep this war alive because you are cowardly or trying to score political points.

    •  Possibly true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Juche

      You might think that they might be afraid to end the war ASAP for fear of a worse civil war breaking out in Iraq once the withdrawal starts.

      But I really don't think they have a clue about how to successfully legislate a withdrawal.

      "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

      by gsbadj on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:05:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gsbadj

        When we pulled out of vietnam Cambodia, South Vietnam and Laos all went communist real fast. As a result millions were murdered and had their rights violated.

        Are there other examples in modern military history where a tricky withdrawal was organized that we can learn from? Our method in Vietnam never worked.

        The withdrawal of the USSR from afghanistan was again, a bad example.

        I'm sure there are examples in contemporary world military history about a similiar situation:

        External army invades a country with large amounts of religious and ethnic strife. Strife blows up and becomes a powder keg. Invading army wants to withdrawal so it eventually finds a way to do so that keeps the lid on the domestic situation while still leaving in one piece.

        I'm sure it has happened. No idea where though.

        Maybe Yugoslavia has some tips we can learn about ethnic/religious strife and what not to do.

        •  It's a huge problem (0+ / 0-)

          The fear is that we'll be called on to send troops BACK to quell potential religious cleansings.

          It goes without saying that any idiot should have foreseen that getting rid of Saddam would lead to this.

          But the only possible way that I can see for it to go fairly smoothly would be for the UN to get involved.  And I don't see that happening under our idiot President.  It would take a lot of work to get them invovled and would involve letting the UN take control of situations there.  W ain't letting THAT happen.

          "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

          by gsbadj on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:54:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Harry Reid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maddie05, phonegery

    is anything but a leader.  Remember his lame excuse for the rush vote to confirm Mukasey?

    According to sources inside and outside the Democratic leadership, Harry Reid allowed a vote on Mukasey because in exchange the Republican leadership agreed to allow a vote on the big Defense Appropriations Bill, which contains $459 billion in military spending but doesn't fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    ...
    One key reason Dem leaders wanted this defense approps bill passed, sources tell me, is that they wanted to be able to argue that they had sent a bill to the President funding the military, if not the war itself. The idea was that doing this would allow them to protect themselves in the days ahead when the battle over Iraq funding heats up and Republicans inevitably charge that Dems are refusing to fund the troops.
    ...
    According to sources, Reid went into this week with a few primary goals in mind: Get a massive $286 billion farm bill through the Senate, and get action on the Defense Appropriations Bill.

    And how did that work for the Farm Bill?  

    The 55-42 filibuster vote Friday capped 10 days of inaction, during which time the farm bill remained inert on the Senate floor. Although 260-plus amendments have been drafted, many unrelated to farm policy, senators remain split over substance, process and politics.
    ...
    Many Republicans like the underlying farm bill, which won unanimous approval from the 21-member Senate agriculture committee. Nonetheless, they kept it bottled up Friday out of solidarity with other GOP colleagues who want to offer amendments on hot-button political issues. One potential amendment, for instance, would bar illegal immigrants from obtaining driver's licenses.

    Another potential amendment would bar crop subsidies to residents of San Francisco; New Haven, Conn.; and other self-designated "sanctuary" cities that harbor illegal immigrants. Other proposals range from cutting estate taxes to granting firefighters collective bargaining rights.

    We need a new majority leader.

  •  Harry, you are from Nevada (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phonegery

    so let me put this in terms you'll understand.

    Right now here are how things stand:
    you = Nathan Detroit
    Republicans = Big Jules
    the leader we want = Sky Masterson

    I got nuthin (-6.88, -6.15)

    by guyermo on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:41:34 AM PST

  •  At what point do the Dems own this illegal, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gsbadj

    immoral occupation of another country?

    Can anyone else envision a future where we control the WH and both houses of Congress, and yet the war still continues?

    Our side owns more of this war with each passing day.  People on here want to believe that 2008 will be like 1932 - that we are on the verge of establishing a permanent progressive majority.

    But it will never happen if we keep writing blank checks for a mistake.

    -6.88, -6.72. The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

    by Lucky Ducky on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:43:09 AM PST

  •  WHY? why are they doing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, RickMassimo

    this? I just don't get it. WOuldn't it be smarter to actually try and stop the war? What do people see as their rationale for not sticking tough to it? If someone could help me understand I'd appreciate, 'cause i sure dont...

  •  The meme in the media is the surge is working (0+ / 0-)

    I've heard it from several different sources over the past week - violence is down, the surge is working, etc, etc.

    I haven't heard much to counteract that message.  Nobody that I saw picked up the story about violence in Basra being down 90% since the Brits left... and, come to think of it, how much of a role has that played in any decrease in violence stats?

    I'm not a member of an organized political party, I'm a Democrat - Will Rogers

    by newjeffct on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 08:55:12 AM PST

  •  Reid was promoted to the leader position (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melvynny

    During a time when the Dems were in the minority.  He has this mindset that he has to build consensus and that he has to enlist Republicans (ha ha, what a concept) to any legislation passing through the chamber.  And for some reason, Democrats in the Senate seem to fear the filibuster more than the plague.  Are they afraid the Republicans have some information on Iraq they are waiting to spring upon the country and they'll do it during a filibuster?  What is going on?

    At any rate, as our Democratic majority in the Senate grows (and I think now it's only a question of by how much it will grow) we should think long and hard about having a more progressive Senate leader elected.  Nevada's a great state but it doesn't exactly have a progressive record in comparison to, say, New York or California or one of the New England states.  We need someone in there who understands that Republicans can be desirable to have as co-sponsors or supporters of legislation, but they are not absolutely necessary.  Let them complain and filibuster each and every bit a legislation coming out of the Senate and stall everything in Congress.  I can't see any difference between that option and what is happening now.

    I guess being in the majority in the House means much more than being in the majority in the Senate.  Strange, that.

    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind -- Albert Einstein

    by BasharH on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:15:43 AM PST

    •  The Senate "majority" (0+ / 0-)

      Don't be so sure the Democrats will increase their majority in 2008.  The way things are going, with the betrayals by the Democratic leadership, the Democratic base is demoralized and will largely sit home.

      The public is turning on the Democratic Congress.  Although that does not mean they like Republicans, it does mean that they will not get out and vote for "Democrats" who act more like Republicans than a Democrat.  

      •  Hmm, I don't think this is the case (0+ / 0-)

        The only endangered seat in the Senate for Democrats is Landrieu's seat in Louisiana, and even that is looking like a hold or close to it right now.  With open seats in Virginia and Colorado and New Mexico and a good pickup chance in New Hampshire, we will at least gain two seats just from those (and hopefully retain or take all of them).

        The Democratic base may be upset with recent poor decisions in the House and Senate, but they are anything but demoralized, especially considering they'll have a good chance to electing someone to the White House to start undoing some of this Bush-derived damage.  So cheer up.

        If you'd like to sit at home and not vote, by all means, exercise your right not to vote.  Hopefully you're in a heavily Democratic district that can survive without your vote.  But to say the whole Democratic base is demoralized and will stay at home is a little too simple.

        I'm not sure whether or not the public is turning against the Democratic Congress or not.  I'm pretty sure after surviving 12 years of Republican rule in Congress, they know what horrible governance looks like and won't blame the Dems too much.  I hope you're wrong about the lack of a GOTV effort on the part of the Democratic base.  Let's wait another few months and see how each party's base is feeing.  Perhaps your fears will prove to be misplaced and we'll celebrate a stronger Democratic Congress and the White House win with everyone else in the country.

        Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind -- Albert Einstein

        by BasharH on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 11:22:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Levin is Part of This, As Usual.. No Surprise n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    North Country Dem

    "When you enter the ocean, you enter the food chain, and not necessarily at the top." - Cousteau

    by Thucydides Junior on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:17:45 AM PST

  •  Pelosi/Reid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, phonegery

    Nancy has been getting much more flack for her capitulation because funding starts in the House and because she has a true majority w/o filibuster threats.  If she holds out, we have succeeded with our anger, if she caves, we need a new tool.

  •  Kill Kill Kill.....why is Harry afraid... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phonegery

    of using the word KILL?  

    I watched him discuss the failure of the FARM BILL on the floor of the senate last week and he accidently said 'the Republicans prefer to KILL the farm bill rather then let it come up for a vote"  when I heard that I thought FINALLY Harry Reid gets it that words matter and the words 'kill the farm bill' says all one needs to say about the republicans in the senate but THEN I watched as Harry tried to retract his own words and instead tried to soften the attack on the Republicans by removing the words KILL THE FARM BILL from the rest of his speech and I wondered WHY?

    The only thing I could think of was that Harry Reid is way to weak when it comes to weilding the Leaders powers in the senate....he brings a paper knife to the republican gun fight every time he gets up to speak on an issue.  

    IMPEACH THE CHEERLEADER... SAVE THE WORLD! © ®

    by KnotIookin on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:18:10 AM PST

  •  The Weimer Republic Democrats (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joon

    Just as the Social Democrats of the pre-war Weimer Republic in Germany willingly voted in Hitler as Chancellor, and then accomodated his "Enabling Act", the Democrats are consistently and willingly enabling the Bush Administration and its shredding of our Constitution and traditional American values.

    There is no rational excuse for Reid's behavior other than he has cut a deal to make the Democratic party looks like total assholes to the public, thus ensuring a Republican victory in 2008.  The man has gone beyond being pathetic to being an outright embarassment and an outright mole in the Democratic party.

    What is up with the Democratic leadership?  Why do they consistently fold to the Republicans, even after vowing not to do so?  This is political smoke and mirrors.  Reid and Pelosi have cut some sort of deal.
    They are active enablers of the war now.  

    We are talking here about a symbolic timeline, not a real one.  And Reid is too pathetically a coward to even stand firm on a symbolic withdrawal timeline.

    A 50 billion dollar 2 or 3 month "bridge fund."?  This country is being bled to death by this war.  Our own people are suffering all across this country with lack of health care, unemployment, foreclosures, and we have Bush apologists calling us unpatriotic because we want to bring our troops home.  What about those poor Iraqis, they say?  They say we have to bring democracy to Iraq.  I say we have to bring democracy to America first, and what about those poor Americans?

    I rarely use profanity, but Harry Reid, you are ong God damn piece of cowardly shit.  The sooner the party is rid of you the better.

    •  Historical correction (0+ / 0-)

      The German Social Democrats were the only part in the Reichstag to oppose Hitler and his Enabling Act (the Communists would have as well, but the Nazis had banned them at that point). To this day, the German Social Democrats take still pride in that dignified last stand - comparing them with the cowardly Democratic Senate leadership is inaccurate and unfair.

  •  Let's not forget that Levin (like Clinton) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, phonegery

    ... was also one of the few Dem senators to jump onto the administration's "We-must-get-rid-of-Maliki" bandwagon a couple of months back, a move even Bush quickly disavowed.

    And Levin (like Clinton) is also one of the major Dem saber-rattlers on Iran.

    The real question, then, becomes, do these Democratic senators really want us to be out of Iraq?

  •  OK, show of hands, who didn't... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hey BB

    see this coming?

    Anybody?

    Bueller?

    "...the basest of all things is to be afraid." William Faulkner

    by flem snopes on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:48:35 AM PST

  •  How many times? (0+ / 0-)

    Please folks can we stop this fantasy of hoping that the Democrats will actually stand up to Bush?
    How many times exactly do they have to stab you in the back before you catch on?
    The facts are very simple. They fear Bush's media more than they fear us. That is going to continue until we give them a reason to fear and respect us.
    That reason can be delivered in the form of strong and succesful primary challenges to as many of the weak kneed capitulatirs as possible.
    If and when we unseat a few of the more prominent ones we will be listened to, until then we won't.
    Does anyone out there really doubt what's going to happen on this Iraq funding? Do you? Bush will get his money and we will get the usual song and dance about hands being tied, supporting the troops, and "nothing we can do". There is one way to stop that in the future, take some of them out.

  •  They doing what? no. stop. don't. help us. (0+ / 0-)

    The banality of our senate Democratic un-leadership has me in its grip.

    Next stop- apathy.

  •  folks... folks (0+ / 0-)

    you just don't see the big picture! ;-)

    (runs for cover!)

  •  KOS's own MSM framing; such as "right & popular" (0+ / 0-)

    A PRINCIPLE doesn't need anyone "proving they have the courage to stand tough for what they believe, while giving the vast majority of the American people what they want." (KOS)

    PRINCIPLED persons PRACTICE and don't prove to others, don't engage the EGO, don't bow to or engage with the images and opinions others carry around in their heads. (Even stating this feels like a "proving", dammit all. Guilty as charged. But let's go.)

    PRINCIPLES exist and display their power and congruency to those who earnestly inquire on all interactive levels. PRINCIPLES don't vary, don't subject themselves to popularity contests or "right vs. wrong" tail-chasing debates. AND DON'T NEED ANYONE TO BELIEVE IN THEM. (AND THEY DON'T MORPH!)

    GRAVITY, Laws of PHYSICS, Laws of SPACE and TIME...don't need VALIDATION from Senators, Bloggers, or yours truly, whoever that might be, will be, or won't be.

    YES, the MSM supports a parallel REALITY that comes to life in people's MINDS, not unlike a "matrix". (No wonder those in the shadows funnel millions and receive payback and more from advertisers, etc.) But that parallel reality gets installed in all of us from birth, unknowingly thru language and image-creating.

    But to suck up and spit back the very same FRAMES of "duality" that the MSM operates from, is simply bowing in worship of the very same FALSE IDOL dynamics.

    FALSE IDOL: popularity = here today, gone tomorrow.

    FALSE IDOL: rightness = chases tail with "wrongness", and eventually becomes it's opposite via the path of arrogance

    Furthermore, FALSE IDOL: strong/powerful (ie. aggressive/angry) = snaps like a twig when defensive armoring is caught off-guard by a certain rare moment of emotional honesty, parallel empathy, and a wise and sensitive discerning eye. "mr. strong" uncorks and cries like a baby from a deeply wounded RAW place within, realizing the suffering inflicted on others and self.

    DEMOCRATS will continually morph into REPUBLICANS, and back again. It's the nature of the BEAST here in the MATRIX. Unless some rare individual masters untold DISCIPLINE (thereby aligning with PRINCIPLES, like a NELSON MANDELA)...most will forever make and break promises with EXCUSES, fall prey to inner demons of greed, lust for power, position, and fame. OR just get caught with one's pants down, Howdy BILL!

    It's not their fault and it is their fault. Well-intentioned (not their fault). A lack of proper understanding and underestimation of their own inner weaknesses/programming (their fault).

    THIS WEBSITE FLORISHES IN CONTROVERSY. But for what PRACTICE? PASSIONATE DEBATE to take our minds into a deeper understanding of PRINCIPLE? NOPE, essentially it functions to find/support the next DEMO/REPUB MORPH candidate of the SYSTEM to maintain the SYSTEM. Forever MAINTAINING the dynamic SYSTEM of opposites, DEMO and REPUB, forever morphing into the other, forever tail-chasing. Until this site MORPHS into a different outer form that operates the same essential function...MAYA! MAYA! MAYA! (Much misdirected and depleting EMOTIONAL energy here!)

    If one gracefully and painstakingly aligns with the CENTER POINT of any (yin-yang) dynamic, AKA rooting into a chosen PRINCIPLE (be it Clarity, Centerness, Honesty)...then, layer by layer, one will begin to see and literally feel past the exciting highs and fearful lows, bow out of popularity contests, walk away from the urge to shout back in ridicule/disgust/anger/bitterness in those "right vs. wrong" contests, disconnect from the emotional urgency to save the country, the world, and perhaps---just perhaps---see clearly enough the players simpy running and being run by their "scripted parts". Futhermore, not fall prey to "grand self-illusions" which yields inflated "promises and goals" not supported by reality, only later to be broken (followed by the trail of excuses, blame-shifting, shame, and other EGO manuvers).

    THE CHOICE IS YOURS...becoming the plodding TORTOISE (inching true progress in practice) or becoming the excitable HARE (forever tail-chasing and exhausting itself before the finishline). CAUGHT YA! Becoming ONE or the OTHER??? Ha, ha, ha. We actually do both, sometimes simultaneously, but DISCIPINE can shift us more often than not out of the "illusion" and into REALITY. Out of "separateness/specialness/aloneness" and into...hmmmm...NON-ILLUSION, CONGRUENCE.

    Aligning as such, one engenders a more CONGRUENT understanding and practice. In fact...Dogen said,

    Because it is the practice of enlightenment, a beginner's wholehearted practice of the Way is exactly the totality of original enlightenment. For this reason, in conveying the essential attitude for practice, it is taught not to wait for enlightenment outside practice.

    The tail-chasing of morphing forms ENDS NOW!

    Masters of such DISCIPLINE exist but you'd never find them in the "seek but not find" trap, the tail-chasing domain of the social ego, the empire-building "climb to the heap of the pile" competition legacy-game. You won't find them pointing at the MOON and claiming "finger"! OR pointing at the SYSTEM and so so so emotionally well-intentioned and meaningfully claiming "right", "popular", "DEMOCRAT", using essentially meaningLESS languaging because such terms are so so so "non-abiding" and "morphable".

    HELLO IN THERE!!! DID I MENTION PRINCIPLES DON'T MORPH???

    Such languaging is essentially DECEPTIVE (illusion- enhancing) in the long run of TIME while being perfectly HONEST in it's form as DECEPTION to a trained MIND. Such masters are forever undertaking the dismantling of this foreign "matrix conditioning", installed in all of us (via language and image-creating, etc.) by the collective ego since birth, forever breaking down illusions/temptations of specialness/separateness so to truly be a blessing to others in the ONE CONGRUENT REALITY (Wholeness). THIS IS THE PRACTICE AND IT DOESN'T END---BUT PROGRESS IS EXPEREINCED.

    Did i mention SUFFERING? Oh yes, the ancient symbol for EARTH is the CROSS imposed upon the CIRCLE (which represents SPIRIT). Welcome HOME! Remember, gracefully and painstakingly.

  •  What's New? (0+ / 0-)

    It's the reason why I almost vomit when people talk about electing democrats, no matter what.  As if that "proves" something.  As if the tired old mantra "we're the lesser of two evils" means anything when the non-progressive democrats continue to roll over in the face of continuing attacks on the constitution, bill of rights, human rights issues and the funding of the Iraqi occupation.  

    Newsflash: when you enable the bush misadministration you are as culpable as the bush misadministration.

    That's why the primaries are so important.  These corrupt, cowardly and hide-bound incumbents must go in order for any real change to take place.

  •  Oh puhleeeze! (0+ / 0-)

    Pelosi will be caving any time now.  I think 08 would be a great year for third party candidates to run for Congress.  Everyone hates the rethugs and the Dems have no cojones or ovaries.  Third party candidates could run away with the election.  Just sayin'.

    The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all - JFK- 5/18/63-Vanderbilt Univ.

    by oibme on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:59:29 PM PST

  •  I'm amazed anyone even contemplated the idea (0+ / 0-)

    that the Democratic Senate would stand firm on this. Fool me once and all that stuff.

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