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Hillary Clinton: Strength + Experience + 35 years = ???

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:41:23 AM PDT

When I listen to Senator Clinton, she always refers to her strength and experience and her 35 years of fighting for causes as the rationale to favor her over the other candidates.

I myself originally bought into that as a favorable plus for her till I started thinking about it and thought to myself, that shouldn't strength and experience and 35 years mean an impressive list of accomplishments?  Isn't that the point of speaking to your experience?  A record of achievement?  

So let's take a look...

Let's face it, the majority of the underpinnings of Senator Clinton's claim to have the right experience for the Presidency is from being First Lady in Bill Clinton's White House.  

I thought that Senator Obama in an off the cuff remark made an interesting observation in regards to Senator Clinton challenging him on his economic policy.  He said,

"My understanding is that she wasn't Treasury Secretary in the Clinton Administration".

 

That's an interesting and salient (if obvious) point because let's look at what else she wasn't:  She wasn't Secretary of State, she wasn't Secretary of Energy, She wasn't Secretary of Commerce et cetera...And she wasn't VP.  

So, what did she exactly do?  

It seems to me that the majority of her experience in the White House was as an adviser to Bill Clinton.  As an advisor you are not accountable for anything nor is there very much evidence on the actual advice since we have no complete set of records available for her.  Note that I am not knocking her role as adviser as she is clearly a smart person but because you are an adviser to a President is that enough public qualification to run for President?  How many others have run for president based on their years as Presidential adviser?

The one major policy that she was in charge of - health care - ended up as a debacle in that she could not pass it when there was a Democratic President, Senate and House.  In fact, that was a pretty clear failure.  

So, apparently Hillary was not in charge of anything major and cannot speak to actual accomplishments that she can take credit for during her years at the White House.

Well, she is a Senator now some say.  Fair enough, she has been in the Senate for just over 1 term.  I ask again, what has she accomplished and can point to as an achievement in the Senate?  Did she author and pass important legislation?  Did she lead the charge on any important legislative crusade?

The answer is NO and NO.

In fact, the most important vote that she cast was the war in Iraq and she got it wrong.  Did she show strength and speak out against the popular tide?  Did she show her experience in understanding the consequences of an Iraqi occupation?  

The answer once again is NO and NO.  With "35 years of experience" you think that she would not show such incredibly poor judgment.

Joe Biden and Chris Dodd have years of experience and can point to important legislation that they have passed.  Bill Richardson can point to experience being in charge of an important cabinet position and a state.  Barack Obama at least showed good judgment in speaking out against the war and was an effective state legislator and is running as a new/change candidate.  Mike Gravel can point to his record in the Senate and the legitimate strength that he showed in opposing the Vietnam War and the success he had in helping end it.  Even Dennis UFO Kucinich  shows the courage to challenge the system consistently - even if by himself.  John Edwards is not running on an experience platform but as a reformer and his private life showed the willingness to take on and beat larger opponents.

Hillary Clinton?  Strength + Experience + 35 years = Not so much.

I'm sorry to say, the Empress has no clothes...

If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear cogent arguments why.

Poll

Hillary's Strength + Experience + 35 years =

10%17 votes
89%142 votes

| 159 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Experience, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, Bill Richardson (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 123 comments

  •  I've been told (9+ / 0-)

    all of her numerous accomplishments are listed on her website, but none of her supporters can detail them here because the list is simply too exhaustive.

  •  without name recognition (10+ / 0-)

    there's no way an illinois native who lived mostly in arkansas and dc would be a senator from new york.

    -4.50, -4.92; Obama '08

    by RSA TX on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:50:10 AM PDT

  •  let me see if I have this correct ... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    daria g, Gabriele Droz

    you don't support Hillary. Am I right?

    "Turning the page..."

    by Rumarhazzit on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:54:38 AM PDT

  •  Hillary supporters, keep in mind (10+ / 0-)

    this wouldn't be an issue and people wouldn't be raising this criticism if Clinton hadn't come storming out of the gate months ago attacking Obama on 'experience.'

    •  Obama was a part time State Senator (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Gabriele Droz

      for goodness sake before he gave his rock star speech at the DNC- the press and David Axelrod (who discovered him 15 years ago- See "OBama's Narrator" http://www.nytimes.com/...

      There is a huge difference - you might want to believe in I'm a uniter not a divider again- go with your gut and not your head-but honestly- I've about had it with spin-Obama's communications director is Robert Gibbs-who had a major connection to: "Dean Tarred in Osama Ad" http://www.cbsnews.com/...
      Also: "On November 7, 2003, a strange new group no one had ever heard of called "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" was quietly formed and soon thereafter began running a million dollar operation including political ads against then-frontrunner Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. The commercials ripped Dean over his positions or past record on gun rights, trade and Medicare growth. But the most inflammatory ad used the visual image of Osama bin Laden as a way to raise questions about Dean's foreign policy credibility. While the spots ran, Americans for Jobs-through its then- spokesman, Robert Gibbs, a former Kerry campaign employee-refused to disclose its donors."
      Purity in politics is simply a fantasy and Obama supporters have bought the "authenticity" strategy- kudos to Axelrod et al-but folks, this is serious, we need cut beyond the spin to the truth-

      •  Obama is not running on Strength and Experience.. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vernonbc

        ...as far as I can tell, Obama is running on being the new guy who shows good judgment, is smart and can work with the other side (which many don't like)

        He is not running on the Strength and Experience + 35 years frame.

        Judge Obama on his platform, judge Clinton on hers.

      •  Obama was a very effective State Senator (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vernonbc

        He was tireless, efficient sponsored over 800 pieces of legislation. Got some very important things accomplished at the state level working in the face of strong opposition. He is not running on his experience but he has nothing to be ashamed of in this area. Unlike his opponent he isn't trying to have it both ways. She takes credit for the accomplishments of the Clinton Adminstration, which if that is true she must also take the blame for Bill's misteps, and she should release the papers that prove the role she had in his accomplishments. Or she must run on her own record, which apart from Bill seems pretty vapid.

    •  I wondered how a 2nd term senator (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      WV Democrat

      Her first elected office could have 35 years of experience.

      Oh, But I slept at Holiday Express, last night.

      No matter how cynical I get, it's impossible to keep up.

      by Flippant on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:11:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  She's accomplished about as much as (5+ / 0-)

    as a lot of other people who've spent their lives in and around government.

    The one exception is that she is the first woman to seriously, seriously challenge for the top of the ticket.  Whether that's as extraordinary as say, being the first African-American to be in that position-- I dunno.  We have many more female Senators and Governors than we do African-Americans so my vote for "trailblazer" goes to Obama.

    •  Jackson may have won (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chicago jeff

      if he'd decicisively knocked out Gore's support in the south and peeled away a little of Dukakis support in NY.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:10:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This post only shows lack of research (8+ / 0-)

    If you had bothered to do more than listen to other campaign spin you would learn all the many things that HIllary Clinton accomplished in her lifetime- Those of you, especially young woman, should remember that when Hillary graduated from college the only question a woman got during an interview was,  "how fast can you type."  I challenge those Hillary haters to check out her bio- I know Obama has 2 autobiographies before the age of 45 but while he was "exploring his fluid identity" Hillary was working on Walter MOndale's subcommittee on migrant farm workers, volunteering at the Yale New Haven Children's Center where she became interested in what abuse does to their brains leading her to follow up her law school years with a post graduate year studying early childhood brain development (writing scholarly papers that were used in legal briefs) , she was instrumental in the early years of the Children's Defense Fund and spent a lifetime commitment, volunteered at Legal Services, was a staff member on the Nixon impeachment subcommittee, worked on Eugene McCarthy's anti-war campaign, was first student at Wellesley to give the commencement address where she stood up and criticized Senator Brooke who spoke before her earning a 7 minute standing ovation and getting the attention of Life magazine followed by a story about her courage, there is much, much more and this is just all before she met Bill Clinton- Do the work before you spread dishonest information please this is just too important-
    ps- One of my favorite accomplishments is the co-founding of a group called Vital Voices (an outgrowth of her UN conference on Woman in Beijing) check it out: http://www.vitalvoices.org/

    So-so much more- even Wikipedia would be a start-

    •  She graduated from college? Big fucking deal. (13+ / 0-)

      And then she went to law school.  Huzzah!!!!

      You could take ALL of her accomplishments and put 'em in  a thimble.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:03:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  ther are all commendable (7+ / 0-)

      i'm sure all of the candidates have impressive resumes

      but tell me about her white house experience
      she keeps touting "8 years in the white house" as a cornerstone of her candidacy

      A vote for Obama is a vote for the world : YES WE CAN!

      by oscarfrye on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:03:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It Really Depends (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        daria g, cpresley

        On how involved you think she was.

        My theory is it's somewhere in between Laura Bush and Dick Cheney.

        If you want to say she wasn't involved, OK, fine.  See how far that goes.

        If you want to say ok she was involved but the Clinton Admin was a failure, OK, fine.  See how far that goes.

        "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

        by Edgar08 on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:10:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  having it both ways (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          alba, bugscuffle, vernonbc

          she seems to want to take credit (or shared credit with Bill) for positives and then keeps her distance for negatives (e.g. "I'm not him..")...with records not being released all of this comes across as pretty thin

          A vote for Obama is a vote for the world : YES WE CAN!

          by oscarfrye on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:15:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well Sure (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cpresley

            But that only makes sense to distance oneself from the negatives.  Sure.

            But if someone says NAFTA didn't work out the way it should have, she'll own that.

            I don't think she's running away from that record.

            If the records could be issued strictly relevant to this issue, I'd be all for it.

            As it stands, the simple reality is those records will also be used by Republicans, so I'm not all for it.

            Sifting through Obama's letters to Michelle from 8 years ago doesn't interest me that much either.

            "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

            by Edgar08 on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:18:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "someone says.. (0+ / 0-)

              NAFTA didn't work out very well"????  That's an understatement if you care about workers rights or the environment.  BTW, there were many who spoke out before the NAFTA vote. Just like there were many who spoke out against the war in Iraq which with all of her wisdom she voted for and has never apologized for. Clinton, the Republicans and big corporations pushed NAFTA through.  Is she going to scrap it? You can bet she won't with all those fat donations she is pulling down from the big corps. Why won't she renounce taking lobbyists money?  Obama and Edwards have but she refueses to.  My guess is it is because of her experience. She knows how crooked the system is but is unwilling to change it.

              •  Obama has a K street Project, too! (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                poetas

                No one but Kucinich is going to scrap NAFTA.

                Even Edwards says "Keep, but reform."

                "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

                by Edgar08 on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:39:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Maybe (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  poetas

                  we should be giving Kucinich more consideration--Oh wait I forgot he isn't pulling in the corporate dollars therefore he isn't a viable candidate.

                  Kucinich also came to the School of the Americas protest--not only did none of the other candidates come--Bill Clinton kept this center for teaching torture open during his reign.

                  I'm not voting for the staus quo how about you?

      •  Listen to what Adm. Joe Sestak says and others (4+ / 0-)

        who worked in the White House- Talk to woman around the world-check out
        http://www.vitalvoices.org/  a group she co-founded Hillary Clinton has met with most of the world leaders-She's the only candidate that understands what the pressures of the President are, she has lived it. Her entire life history shows someone who is proactive-There is no way to describe in one posting the extent of her commitment and influence while in the White House- She was the first First Lady to entire with graduate degrees and a full time job- She got neutralized immediately as an uppity woman-this was new territory for woman- Anyone in that administration will tell you how much Hillary Clinton contributed to policy, it was enormous- Obama was a part time state senator-he lived in Indonesia as a young kid-his father was Kenyan-that's his international experience-we are living through the hell of a President with no experience-Please, please get beyond the hatred and spin, do the work on your own, don't trust me or the other campaigns- (including Clintons) they are all pumping out disinformation-along with the press who wants a food fight- We must be smarter this time, vote with both your heart and your mind-this is just too important, I beg you.

        •  Heart & Mind (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          theark, vernonbc

          I am using my heart and mind.  I listen to all of the candidates and I can tell you that I support Barack Obama with both my heart and mind.

          I want a President this time around who doesn't just tell me what I want to hear but what I need to hear.  I want a President that tells me what they really believe and have a history of acting on those beliefs.  I want a President that can make me believe in this country again.

          For the life of me I don't know what Hillary's beliefs are other than she believes she should be President.  Everytime I hear Obama speak I think - wow that makes sense.  And he doesn't change his position depending on who he is talking to.

          You want to talk about the heart.  When I hear Hillary speak I turn cold.  When I hear Obama speak I am ready to march.  And march I will right to Iowa for the week of caucaus to do whatever I can to help his campaign.  Thats right, I'm volunteering one full week for Obama in Iowa (I have gone there several times to canvass as I only live an hour away).  I am a stay at home mom and have managed to convince my husband to take a week off of work to stay home and take care of our 3 year old so I can go and support Obama.

          This is how many of Obama's supporters feel.  I posted in Obama's website that I was doing it and within 5 min. I heard from 4 others who were also going to Iowa that week.

          We are not soft supporters because we not only have a candidate we believe in but a candidate that believes in us.

          •  you are going by "Obama can speak well" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Gabriele Droz

            you use the words "heart" "feels" "believes in us"

            Jessica -- you are going by your heart....simply using your gut, you may not select the best president.

            You need to really really read up and stop listing to Obama's speeches. Speeches have convinced a great number of good people to do very wrong things.

            i'm not an HRC supporter -- infact between those two, I would select Obama....

            You are  a powerful woman willing to use so much of your time...please consider carefully what you are doing.

            Obama lied. The 4th amendment died.

            by daddy4mak on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:55:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I use listen but (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              theark, vernonbc

              I have read - a lot.  And I'm not talking about their speaking styles I am talking about the content of theirs speeches, their policies, their records.

              This country needs a President with good policies, who can work with the Republicans and who has some actual chance of working with/reaching an accord with the international community.  

              Look the Clintons had a democratic congress and they failed to make any really good significant change for this country.  We are in a position to once again have a democratic congress and president and I don't think I want to let the same people who couldn't get healthcare through last time have another go at it.

              I have an incredibly hard time believing that Hillary will be able to work with the Repbulicans - there is just too much negative history there.

              She voted for the war and she voted for Kyl-Lieberman.  These two votes will cause her a lot of problems and be an impediment when dealing with the international community.

              I have used my mind to study all of the candidates.  But another thing this country needs right now is HOPE.  We need to believe.  We need a President that brings us into the process, that asks something of us (and not just to ask a staged question).

              We need to move forward not backward and I don't think that Hillary is the person to take us into the future.  She's running on the past and Obama is running on the future.  Please don't accuse me of not thinking all of this through with my mind just because I also speak with my heart.

              I want to vote for something, and so I am.

              •  Jessie-you are repeating talking points (0+ / 0-)

                the Clintons for most of the two terms did not have a Democratic Congress-only briefly- where did you get that info?  Hillary works every day with the Republicans and has been criticized for doing it- She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.   She didn't vote for the war-did you read her floor speech?  Please do and get back to me on it.  Dick Durbin, the friend of Obama's and major anti-war Senator from Illinois who voted against the Iraq amendment voted with Clinton- explain that to me please?  

                The international community will be quite happy to have the Clintons back- From day one they will know we are back to reality-no lag time and rookie mistakes.   Hope is just a word  (used as a strategy-we got it in MA from Axelrod for our governor as well) unless you have something to back it up- Everyone believes in hope-

                Again, running on the past is an Obama talking point- he is running because of the past- because of the hard work people like Hillary Clinton did on human rights and civil rights.  She knew Martin Luther King- She marched in Selma.
                I'm sorry if I have implied/accused you of going only with your heart-what I am saying is that these political operatives a really, really good.  For them it is a game.  Axelrod has a child with epilepsy.  His wife started a national foundation and they asked Hillary Clinton to speak at the annual convention.  Because of her degree in early childhood brain development, she spent the day of the dinner in the hospital talking to doctors and kids-This happened to be during the impeachment process so the whole day she was peppered with questions about Monica.  Despite this she put together an amazing speech and then went back to Washington got a ton of grant money for epilepsy.  When Axelrod's wife was interviewed she said that HIllary Clinton was one of the most amazing woman she had ever met.   Now my son had cancer- anyone who did anything for him during the year of his illness his my hero forever.  David Axelrod has spent the last few years trying to derail her career- these are political animals not like you and me.  This is a slimy business-that's why you need to look past the talking points and seems like you are trying to do that- this is for real- it's not about them it's about us.

                •  Look (0+ / 0-)

                  They are both in politics and you somehow seem to imply that Hillary is not political.  Sorry, I can't buy that.  I guess we will need to agree to disagree.  You seem like a really nice person and I am sorry to hear about your son.  I lost my mother to breast cancer (she was 47 and my youngest sibling was 7 at the time) and I know how incredibly difficult that can be.  I can respect how dedicated you are to your candidate but I ask that respect my dedication to my candidate.  Your not going to win me over by putting down Barack or by insinuating that Barack is nothing but a political operative.  Senator Obama has done a lot of really good stuff in his life - whether you support him or not.  I guess it just depends on whose story you buy into.  I bought into the Clinton story once but I think I'm ready for a new novel.

                  •  not at all (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm saying they are ALL political, Hillary just gets the bum rap from the so-called authentic Obama campaign and MSM- Just so you know it's scripted and planned- all of it. they may have started with beliefs and they will all agree that their beliefs are basically the same-especially compared to the Republicans.  That's the problem Obama and Edwards et al have.  They have very little disagreement on issues. What they are trying to do is imply that Hillary is dishonest and you can't trust her.  That is pure bull with no proof.  Hillary is ahead by double digits in all the major states and national polls, they will do and  say anything to knock her off, that's politics.  Believe me, any one of them would trade their right arm to be in her position.   I am sick of the primary and can't wait until February when our party can start to mend.  We are all on the same team but we are hurting our chances to take back the country. That is the ultimate goal.  All Democrats want healthcare reform, getting out of Iraq, human rights, habeas corpus returned etc. etc. I'm exhausted by this but it's so worthy a struggle.  Please Jessica, I'm not trying to put you down in any way just suggest you continue to keep yourself open to possibilities.

          •  Here Here (0+ / 0-)

            I salute your passion. I will be there also.

          •  Please open your mind (0+ / 0-)

            Sure it's great to listen to a wonderful speaker- mega churches have discovered that- the ministers there are rock stars just like Obama. I totally get your enthusiasm for change who doesn't want peace and love and uniting?  That's not the point, so many of you have knowledge of Hillary Clinton through the negative reporting of the media, the right wing and now, unfortunately, her Democratic opponents.  Obama has been turned into the "authentic" candidate by David Axelrod. I don't want to burst your bubble but it's just too important.  Please read: "Obama's Narrator"  http://www.nytimes.com/...
            He discovered Obama 15 years ago- Axelrod specializes in African American candidates-he successfully elected several black mayors and recently ran Deval Patrick's campaign (same MO as Obama, AA ivy educated) for governor of Massachusetts- same campaign of "authenticity" and "outsider" It worked big time but since Patrick has taken office he has made one rookie mistake after another- this is a fact that you can check out.  Trust but verify.  These are politicians, they say what you want them to say so they can win.  Many have core beliefs but in order to get elected they must play the game well and we must get the best to beat the Republicans.   So what do we do to know how they really feel?  It is our obligation to look at their past and what they have done in their lifetime, not what their opponents say they have done but what the facts prove. I think you will be quite proud to be a woman when you see what  a lifetime of service during a time when woman wore white gloves and were valued more for their typing skills than their knowledge. Please, please don't dismiss the experience of Hillary Clinton, look at this realistically because it is the most important election in my lifetime and I'm 60.  This is your future and that of my children. Don't cut off your options by the spinning, this purely politics and it is  getting dirty. Shame on us. We need to win this one and we need someone who can hit the ground running on day one -the whole world will be watching.  

            •  Stop! (0+ / 0-)

              I am thinking.  I have thought.  I will continue to think.  But I don't agree with you.  You say look at what they have done.  I have.  Let's see Barack Obama grew up in Hawaii, spent some time in Indonisia, went to college in LA and then NY.  Then he went to Chicago to work as a community organizer.  Not a big money job, but a job that worked to help people who didn't have anyone else fighting for them.  Then he went to law school and did pretty well there ( I do have all the details).  Then he went back to Chicago and worked as a civil rights attorney.  Lets see, he taught constitional law.  He was a pretty sucessful state sentator and has done some good things as a us sentaor.

              I think he has just the right kind of experience.  Works for the people who need it most, has a very good understanding of our constitution, isn't afraid or to polorizing to work with those across the isle, etc.

              Please don't try to convert me anymore.  Won't work!

              •  What do you know about his opponents? (0+ / 0-)

                But of course you want the best qualified candidate right?  They all have stories-and until you know them you don't have all the information.  I will leave you alone because I hear you don't want to go any further-

                •  I know many of their stories (0+ / 0-)

                  Do I know all of the candidates personally?  Of course not.  You seem to have some personal ties to Hillary.  I do not and I just don't believe her.  That's not your fault, it's hers.  I don't believe her and I don't trust her therefore I cannot vote for her.  I guess I'm going to follow neither my mind nor my heart, just my gut.

                  •  Gut is too dangerously close to Bush (0+ / 0-)

                    don't you think?  Is it not possible that all of that negative, right wing money helped form your opinion?  My connection is that Chelsea and my daughter have been friends for years.  I get far more upset than Hillary does about the lies.  I hate to admit the connection again because I get jumped on in these blogs (I've only been on since yesterday but tried to give a first hand and got made fun of) My experience is that Hillary is funny, compassionate, sincere in her desire for change (since early childhood she's worked for those less fortunate) and a terrific mom.  She has raised an incredible daughter-and she has her own mom living with her.  She is not the cold and calculating bitch that the media and her opponents like us to believe.  I've got to get out of my pajamas-this blogging is addictive-but now you know where my passion originates.  Sorry if I sounded know it all-just pained by the anger out there.

        •  You seem (0+ / 0-)

          like a very caring articulate person.  Please find someone other than Hillary to support.  She has the highest negatives of any candidate and the Repubs will destroy her with negative ads.  She is splitting the party by her constant moves to the middle.  There are six other good candidates please find a good alternative before she takes all down the drain.

      •  Planning those White House receptions are (0+ / 0-)

        Really, Really Hard Work.

        No matter how cynical I get, it's impossible to keep up.

        by Flippant on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:14:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did her work for Sen. mcCarthy coincide (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Donna Z, alba, vernonbc, oscarfrye

      with her internship for the House Republican Caucus?

      Laird, like many, thinks Hillary Rodham Clinton is the most likely Democratic nominee.

      The two go way back: In 1968, she was one of 30 college interns for the House Republican Caucus and assigned to lawmakers including Laird.

      "She was very ambitious and very smart - but there's nothing wrong with being ambitious," he said.

      A criticism: "She likes to jump to conclusions sometimes."

      Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
      Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

      by ben masel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:09:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What a surprise (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        daria g, Gabriele Droz, cpresley

        She was a kid who jumped to conclusions like some of you younger members of Kos-that's something that comes with experience- Laird is talking about 1968 when she was still a young Republican- It was through her Methodist minister and his introduction to Martin Luther King and human rights issues that changed her into the progressive she is today (check out her 95% progressive voting rating in the Senate)   A lifetime of public service- Do you think that Obama, Edwards et al are not and have not been ambitious?  Where I come from it's a positive- oh, perhaps not so for some of you if you are a woman.

    •  Being smart or being around government is not ... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Flippant, bugscuffle

      ...enough to run for President.

      I am asking about judgment, achievements, accomplishments as a public figure that Hillary can take credit for and where there is proof of this.

      By the way I tipped your response because I am glad that you made the effort to inform us.

      Remember she is running on strength + experience + 35 years.

      In 35 years there should be many accomplishments.

      In terms of strength, give me examples.

      In terms of experience, show me the good judgment that comes from that.

      •  Exactly there are tens of thousands (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Donna Z

        who held staff jobs on the Hill or worked for groups like Children's Welfare. The fact that HRC held those positions (briefly in most cases) does not translate into any distinctive or extraordinary accomplishments.

      •  She switched from being a young Repubulican (4+ / 0-)

        to being a major anti-war, civil rights activist-that's certainly a sign of both strength and good judgment- If you ask any member of the Senate about HIllary Clinton they will all tell you that she is a hard worker, perhaps one of the hardest,that is the cornerstone of her life.  Informed through her faith (she has had the same minister since she was 13) to reach out to those less fortunate. I'm not at all religious but my dad is a Methodist and all the good of religion is embodied in her lifework.   There are so many stories which show her passion and "authenticity" in this regard- it didn't just materialize when running for office.  When the right wing threw millions of dollars against her for 8 years (15 if you count to present and now MSM and her opponents are doing the same) she doesn't fold- to me that shows major strength- She has mostly the same staff for the last 15 years-these people represent the diversity of America-they are fused by deep commitment to issues-they are loyal and they have a deep and abiding trust and faith in Hillary Clinton.  Just listen to her speak, she has grasp of all major issues, she will not let us down in the general.  I'm exhausted by this blogging.  I just discovered the addictive nature of it yesterday and I can't seem to get myself off the damn thing. I am passionate as you can tell. I have personal knowledge of Hillary Clinton and it's painful to see the distortions, it is unfair and not balanced.  Many say that it helps "season" our candidate for the general, I'm much more of the mind that it only helps the Republicans when we try to destroy our own.  Sounds like you truly care to learn, thank you for restoring some faith in this internet stuff.   I'm older than most of you and I have a learning curve on cyber things but one thing I have a leg up on is that historically this is the most dangerous time in my life and I've lived through the Cuban missile crisis and had sleepless nights as a kid thinking about how duck and cover would not help against nuclear war.

        •  I appreciate your strong defense.... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vernonbc

          I am not trying to slime Hillary and in fact I am sure that I have not written anything that is untruthful - I am asking for facts.  Most people running for President have "ownership" of specific accomplishments that are clearly theirs.

          Senator Clinton is unique in that she is running so much on her husband's record which is unique as a candidate but she was not legally charged with any task or responsibilities and had no formal authority.  So what is her public record?  

          I am not denigrating Senator Clinton as a person - I am not saying that she is mean or spiteful et cetera that a lot of people do....I think that she is likely a very good person who cares...

          ...but caring is not enough.  All those things that you speak of Menemsha, shows that when she was a young person that she cared a lot about people - I don't doubt that in the least.  I am challenging her on other grounds and yes I am angry at her about the war because she is smarter and stronger and had more political capital than most.

          If your platform is Strength and Experience - then there needs to be proof of that in the political arena that is her  strength and experience and not Bill's.  This is not a monarchy

          I'm exhausted by this blogging.  I just discovered the addictive nature of it yesterday and I can't seem to get myself off the damn thing.

          LOL true...

    •  The Children's Defense Fund is probably a sore (5+ / 0-)

      subject on the campaign trail as its founder, Marian Wright Edelman and her husband Peter became famously disillusioned with the Clintons when his "welfare reform" act cast so many children into poverty. Peter even quit his White House post in protest.  The streets are littered with idealists who believed in these people only to find that they are really only about their own advancement.

      Republicans play only rigged games.

      by output on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:19:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She was TOP COOKIE SELLER in her (0+ / 0-)

      Girl Scout Troop.

      No matter how cynical I get, it's impossible to keep up.

      by Flippant on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:13:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ooooooh my God!!! :D (0+ / 0-)

      So you are saying:

      Hillary graduated!

      She was interested in stuff when she was young!

      On some occasions during the past decades, she spoke out against things!

      And... she is a woman!!!!!!

      Now, you have convinced me - one has to be a rabid Hillary-hater not to be impressed by such an amazing list of land mark achievements.

  •  Strength?? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Donna Z, alba, bigpappa10834, oscarfrye

    Well, that AUMF vote certainly STRENGTHENED George Bush's hand.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:01:26 AM PDT

    •  Dick Durbin, BFF of Obama voted with Clinton (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Gabriele Droz, cpresley

      Explain that?  Durbin was one of the few Senators that didn't vote for the Iraq amendment- He has said that if he thought the Iran amendment opened the door even a fraction of an inch he wouldn't have voted for it-Pretty self serving for all the candidates to throw this a Clinton- especially since Obama didn't make it back to vote and Wes Clark a major drum beater against Bush's rush to war with Iran also supports Hillary vote for diplomacy.

  •  = (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theark

    what have you done for me lately and how does where you want to lead match up with where I see the needs for our direction?

    Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

    by lgrooney on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:07:32 AM PDT

  •  plus, she wrote a book! (4+ / 0-)

    Well, she paid someone to write a book for her!

    •  Doesn't that make her a master of economics?? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      planetclaire4

      The sun is setting on Saxby Chambliss. It's Knight-time!! - Rand Knight, Georgia's U.S. Senate candidate

      by pkbarbiedoll on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:19:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, it makes her kinda phoney. (0+ / 0-)

      •  Great Axelrod talking point for Obama (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, cpresley

        This is a game they are playing- Obama was a part time state senator-how ridiculous to compare experience- He was deciding on road closings and she was meeting with international leaders and trying to develop a universal healthcare plan- Let him earn some gravitas and try when he's got it. We need more than fancy rhetoric-that's swell but all talk no walk doesn't cut it.

        •  Neither does (0+ / 0-)

          being unable to take a stand on any issue or more accurately being able to take many stands on every issue.

          Obama actually accomplished some pretty good stuff while he was a state senator and bet the people in Illinios whose lives where made better by his legistlation would be pretty upset with you saying that he didn't accomplish anything.

          Key word from your post was TRYING.  Lets talk about some stuff that she tried to do that ended in success.

        •  I'm talking about clear successes and proof (0+ / 0-)

          Menemsha I see your point regarding Obama but Obama is not running on "experience" or "strength" or "35 years".  He is running as a new, change guy with good judgment as far as I can tell of his platform and campaign theme.

          I am asking for successes and evidence that clearly links Hillary to accomplishments.

          I am asking Hillary supporters to defend her platform with evidence.

          That's all...

  •  Her signal accomplishment is engendering (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    alba, mikemcnary

    (fairly or unfairly) a large and growing cohort of people who dislike her intensely. Even if her voting record and corporatist tendancies were representative of the Democratic base, which, of course, they're not, she carries way too much baggage. After all these years it's very unlikely that the left or the far right will grow to love her by next November.

    Republicans play only rigged games.

    by output on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:13:44 AM PDT

  •  I guess experience is always subjective.... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    planetclaire4, mikemcnary

    What is the 'correct' experience needed to be President?

    Being a long serving bought-and paid-for politician?
    Being a lawyer?
    Being wealthy?
    Being able to take every stand on every position to please everybody?

    It seems like if you don't fit all of the above you just don't 'have what it takes'.