Daily Kos

Healthcare: To Mandate or Not To Mandate

Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:08:03 PM PDT

There's been quite a bit of buzz about mandated health insurance this week. Hillary Clinton and John Edwards have proposed healthcare plans that will make health insurance mandatory for all US citizens. Barack Obama has proposed a healthcare plan that will provide affordable health insurance for all, but Obama's plan doesn't require a mandate. Today John Edwards released some of the details on how he will enforce his mandate, but Hillary Clinton has refused to provide answers as to what will happen if people choose not to abide by her mandate. The state of Massachusetts last year made health care mandatory and while it has increased the number of those covered, there have been quite a few problems.

First of all, let me make it clear that I think the best possible thing would be for every American to be covered by health insurance. That means a few things:

  1. That every American is covered, but also that the insurance they're getting is affordable.
  1. That every American is covered, but that they have a choice about who provides that coverage.
  1. That every American is covered, but that insurance companies cannot hike up rates.
  1. That every American is covered, but is not forced into coverage that they either do not want, or cannot afford.
  1. That every American is covered, but also that every American has equal access to quality health care.

Barack Obama's plan covers all of my concerns and puts us on the path towards having every American covered by health insurance. Hillary Clinton and John Edwards's plans do not meet all the above criteria and that's a problem.

As I noted above, last year Massachusetts made health insurance mandatory. The Edwards plan was modeled on the MA plan, as was Hillary's plan (since it's basically Edwards' plan). MA residents have until December 31st of this year to be covered by an insurance plan, but what happens if they don't?

The state established a mild penalty for the first year: the loss of the $219 tax exemption. But in the second year, the fine can amount to half the cost of the least expensive policy available, probably at least $1,000.

There are some other pros and cons here, let's take a look:

How many have signed up?

More than 200,000 previously uninsured residents have enrolled, but state officials estimate that at least that number, and perhaps twice as many, have not.

Well, that certainly sounds like it's good news! Adding to the list of those insured is always good, but who's to say it wouldn't happen on its own, without force, as long as the cost of the coverage suddenly became affordable to everyone. Let's look at the entire picture in MA. There are folks who haven't signed up yet afterall. In addition to those who haven't signed up yet, and those who will end up paying fines as a result of their refusal to sign up,

Those managing the enrollment effort say it has exceeded expectations. In particular, state-subsidized insurance packages offered to low-income residents have been so popular that the program’s spending may exceed its budget by nearly $150 million.

But the reluctance of so many to enroll, along with the possible exemption of 60,000 residents who cannot afford premiums, has raised questions about whether even a mandate can guarantee truly universal coverage.

Additional concerns have been generated by projections that the state’s insurers plan to raise rates 10 percent to 12 percent next year, twice this year’s national average. That would undercut the plan’s secondary goal of slowing the increase in health costs.

So, mandatory health insurance is great - IF you can get everyone to sign up, and if you can fine those who refuse, and if you don't go over your budget (because if you go over budget, then either something is getting the axe, or you're increasing taxes or fees somewhere down the line), and if you don't see an increase in cost from insurance companies. There are an awful lot of "if's" there.

We know that the Clinton and Edwards plans will mandate coverage, what we didn't know until today was how Edwards would deal with enforcing this mandate. What we still don't know (because as usual she refuses to answer the question), is how Hillary will attempt to enforce her mandate.

John Edwards's plan for enforcing the mandate:

Under the Edwards plan, when Americans file their income taxes, they would be required to submit a letter from an insurance provider confirming coverage for themselves and their dependents.

If someone did not submit proof of coverage, the Internal Revenue Service would notify a newly established regional or state-based health-care agency [which] would enroll the individual into the lowest cost health-care plan available in that area....The newly covered individual would not only have access to health benefits but would also be responsible for making monthly payments with the help of a tax credit.

....If a person did not meet his or her monthly financial obligation for a set period of time (perhaps a year, perhaps longer) the Edwards plan would empower the federal government to garnish an individual's wages for purposes of collecting "back premiums with interest and collection costs."

Will Hillary's plan also involve submitting proof of insurance to the IRS and allowing them to garnish your wages if you refuse to pay for insurance? Well...the only thing we have to go on here is what she's said in the past - we know that she's said she can see in the future a day when...

"you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview - like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination.

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," she said. Link.

So, "at this point", no worries...do you need to worry about later? Who knows. We likely will never know unless she's elected - and then she might decide to reveal those details, or she might not.

If the goal is to get everyone health insurance - then you have to ask yourself WHY some people do not have health insurance...and once you determine the reasons, you have to do your best to address THOSE reasons. You can't have health care by fiat, and frankly, I'm not sure why you would WANT to have it that way.

What we need to do is make every person realize that it is in their own best interest to get health insurance. If others get health insurance, we benefit from them being healthy, but THEY benefit from being healthy too.  We cannot force them to pay for care when they can't afford it and they fall through whatever loopholes there are - because there WILL be loopholes and people WILL be screwed and it will most likely be the lower-middle middle class (as usual).

But, let's figure out how to make health care affordable to all and then let's figure out how to get people to realize it is in their self-interest to get that insurance - and they WILL. There's no need to force people.

Unfortunately, the Clinton and Edwards healthcare programs will not provide every American with health insurance. There will be those who are left out, those who fall between the cracks of subsidized plans and unsubsidized plans, and those numbers could potentially see an increase each year if the cost of insurance plans rises too much for those who do follow the mandate. And what would the cost be of these mandated plans? How much will the subsidized programs cost?

Well, we can get an idea based on how much the MA plan costs:

The cost was put at $316 million in the first year, and more than $1 billion by the third year, with much of that money coming from federal reimbursements and existing state spending, officials said. Link.

Here's what I have NOT heard. I haven't heard whether or not each person will have access to quality healthcare. I haven't heard how the costs of the mandate will be covered. I haven't heard a promise that insurance companies won't be able to jack their rates up sky high once the mandate is in place.

The Governor of California has proposed a similar plan, here's a comment by former kossack, fabooj, with regard to that plan:

California

I can't say that I've paid that much attention to it and all the healthcare/legal jargon bores me, but it's my reading that that's pretty much what Schwarzenegger is offering up to Californians.  Mandatory health insurance coverage only sounds like it's benefitting health insurance companies.  Considering our idiot governor can't even compel anyone to enforce many of the laws on our books now, I wonder how this will be enforced.  

I don't even think my doctors would like this, as they got enough headaches from insurance companies before.  Several of my doctors who used to accept insurance from various health insurance companies, have reduced or completely stopped accepting insurance.  

My OB for my first kid at first stop accepting Medi-Cal and HealthNet.  Then it was BC.  He accepted my Cigna coverage, but I was the last patient he had with Cigna.  After that, he wouldn't take it (which is just as well, since I lost it 3 days after I had the baby).  Now, he only takes cash, credit cards and SAG/WGA/DGA-sort of insurance.  The cost to patients has severely dropped.  

Our pediatricians, chiropractor, my new OB/GYN and allergist have pretty much done the same, though my new OB/GYN still accepts Medi-Cal.  I haven't had medical insurance since '03 and with two babies and me driving the SoCal freeways all the time, I do get stressed about it.  However, instead of spending $650 a month + $30 co-pays and a $2500/$5500 deductible/, I'm only spending about $60 per month on medical necessities (birth control and vaccinations for the kids).  Now, if I pay cash, I usually get a discount and when we go in for shots, we're generally not charged for the visit.  For ho-hum stuff (sprains, severe colds, rashes, etc) we go to the general clinic which charges $50 for the visit.  It seems to me that this mandatory health insurance scam seeks to destroy those options.

Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

by fabooj on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:36:42 AM CST

So will mandated health insurance put an end to these alternatives that many are currently using? If someone is forced to pay for insurance (at whatever the cost is that they're asking), then do the clinics that charge $50 for the uninsured disappear? Why would they stick around? After all, "everyone" is apparently covered, right? Right... With no mandate or incentive for those providers to participate in programs offering visits for $50, those providers would stop offering those services at that cost.

Here are some further links on the MA plan:

Health insurance: mandatory in Massachusetts?

Health insurance may be mandatory in Mass.

Pros & Cons of Massachusetts' Mandatory Health Insurance Program

At this point I'm still looking at 5 criteria and I'm seeing one plan fulfill all those criteria. That plan was put forward by Barack Obama.

Some quick details from Obama's plan:

Link.

Barack Obama believes we live in the greatest country in the world and that when it comes to health care, America can and must do better. The Obama plan will save a typical American family up to $2,500 every year on premiums by:

  1. Providing affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage for every American;
  2. Modernizing the U.S. health care system to contain spiraling health care costs and improve the quality of patient care; and
  3. Promoting prevention and strengthening public health to prevent disease and protect against natural and man-made disasters.

In his editorial today, Krugman says there are a few problems with Barack Obama's plan:

First, Mr. Obama claims that his plan does much more to control costs than his rivals' plans. In fact, all three plans include impressive cost control measures.

Second, Mr. Obama claims that mandates won't work, pointing out that many people don't have car insurance despite state requirements that all drivers be insured. Um, is he saying that states shouldn't require that drivers have insurance? If not, what's his point?

Look, law enforcement is sometimes imperfect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws.

Third, and most troubling, Mr. Obama accuses his rivals of not explaining how they would enforce mandates, and suggests that the mandate would require some kind of nasty, punitive enforcement: "Their essential argument," he says, "is the only way to get everybody covered is if the government forces you to buy health insurance. If you don't buy it, then you'll be penalized in some way."

As to Krugman's arguments, I'll address them quickly and one at a time.

  1. Each plan may have cost controls, but Obama's plan goes further than the others. Saying that each plan HAS "impressive" cost controls doesn't prove that Obama's plan has less than the others. Krugman ought to know better.
  1. Let's look at MA's new mandate and see how well that's working so far. I think I've covered this extensively above. As for car insurance - we can mandate insurance because we require it as proof when someone gets a drivers license. We aren't withholding drivers licenses from people because they refuse to get health insurance. Well, maybe Hillary and Edwards would do that...I mean, afterall, Edwards will garnish your wages!
  1. Krugman argues that Edwards' penalties are a good idea. I can't agree. The goal here is to provide incentives for people to get health insurance. The goal is not to punish people by garnishing wages, or in any other way. Health insurance is a good thing. We should be convincing people to get it, not turning them off by forcing them to pay fines.

Obama's plan is universal, and it was clearly conceived to be the most comprehensive plan. Is there a chance some people will opt not to pay for health insurance even after Obama's plan has worked to make it more affordable? Sure. That's their choice. I think it's best left to individual adults to make those choices when it concerns their own care. The real benefit to Obama's plan is that he has attempted to solve the problems of our health care system not just by tackling one of them at a time, but by tackling them all at once - and from multiple angles. This is how Obama works. It's how he worked in the State Senate in Illinois where he worked to expand health care coverage, and it's how he's worked in the Senate to pass bi-partisan bills that require transparency in government spending, and it's how he'll work as President to ensure that every American has access to affordable health care.

For more specifics on the plan - and a response to some of the questions we've seen raised in recent days - here's Obama himself:

Tags: Health Care, Health Insurance, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Recommended, 2008 elections, president, primaries, Democrats (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 318 comments

    •  Oh...and thanks to psericks (12+ / 0-)

      for the link to the youtube video which is great.

      •  Fantastic diary, Elise. (13+ / 0-)

        Thanks for putting together such a comprehensive and thoughtful analysis.

        There are differences among the candidates' plans, but I am comforted that all of them take the issue seriously and want to ensure that all Americans get healthcare. I hate to even think about what happens if a Dem doesn't win the Whitehouse :(

        I trust Barack Obama.

        by casperr on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:17:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, and the video is definitely worth watching (10+ / 0-)

          That guy asks some really good questions. It's great to see Obama explaining what he hopes to do and why. He's wonderful on the stump, but this is the kind of setting where he really shines.

          I trust Barack Obama.

          by casperr on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:31:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah... (15+ / 0-)

            as always I think the video shows that HE has thought through all these policy ideas. He knows what he thinks and he knows why he thinks it. And I think he's willing to admit where there could be potential flaws.

            •  If You Don't Cover Everyone... (5+ / 0-)

              Obama's plan is universal

              Obama's plan will definitely reduce the number of the uninsured.  It'll definitely be better than what we have today.

              But it's not universal.

              If you don't cover everyone, you don't have a universal plan.

              My advice to Obama boosters is to emphasize what's good about Obama's plan, rather than claiming it is something that it is not.

              Edwards/Obama '08!

              •  None of the plans cover everyone (5+ / 0-)

                That's a myth. If you can't enforce mandates (and you can't reasonably expect to be able to), then not everyone will participate and not everyone will be covered.

                I trust Barack Obama.

                by casperr on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:17:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Automatic Enrollment Gets You There (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  bettync
                  None of the plans cover everyone

                  The automatic enrollment provisions of the Edwards plan can be expected to get more than 99% of the public covered within a year or two.

                  More than 99% is obviously exactly not the same as 100%, but unless you live your life in the Montana woods avoiding the black helicopters, you're going to get automatically enrolled at some point with the Edwards plan.

                  -----

                  Again, the Obama plan is better than what America has at the moment.  It's just not universal healthcare.

                  •  Automatic enrollment also punishes you (8+ / 0-)

                    financially. If you haven't signed up because you can't afford it - how does punishing people with fines help them to afford it?!

                    It's totally insulting.

                    •  health insurance isn't punishment (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      jd in nyc, Inky, bettync
                      Automatic enrollment also punishes you financially. If you haven't signed up because you can't afford it

                      Edwards has shown were he is going to find the money ($120 billion per year) to subsidize insurance for people making $100,000 per year and less.  If you're low income, you'll get health insurance for free.  If you're middle income, you'll get a big chunk of help in reducing the amount it costs.

                      Everyone gets signed up, no matter what their income.  That's why it's a universal plan.  And it's made affordable to everyone, no matter what their income.

                      •  That $120 billion (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Geekesque

                        split between 250 million Americans will be about $500 each.

                        I think John can be relied on to take good care of the poor and lower-class, so much of that $120 billion will be provided to them.

                        The average American middle-class person will see a subsidy of around $200 per person.

                        When Mr. Failure leaves office, the average family of four health insurance cost will be around $13,000 a year. The subsidy will reduce that to around $12,200.

                    •  People who cannot afford it will have it provided (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      mvr, flubber, Junior Bug

                      under the Edwards plan. Everyone will enjoy lowered costs, but those who cannot easily afford coverage will not have to pay for it.

                      People are hearing the word "mandate" and forming some wrong impressions. I think it is a good thing to make sure that everyone has healthcare insurance. Today everyone has to have car insurance. It is "mandated", but nobody fears that idea because we are used to it. Social security deductions from our pay is mandatory, but nobody fears that because we are used to it. After a few years of the Edwards system, we will look back and wonder why we didn't try it sooner.

                      It is also true that hospital costs cannot truly be controlled as long as uninsured people continue to come in for care. When some are uninsured, everyone else ends up paying for their medical care through higher costs. Edwards plan is the only one that has looked at every detail of cost and coverage and come up with a structure that helps everyone and will actually work.

                      •  And again - what about those who fall (8+ / 0-)

                        through the cracks?

                        We supposedly made college affordable to all too - with financial aid and loans - and yet every time I applied for financial aid I was told that my parents made too much money for me to get grants - and yet they didn't make enough to pay a penny for my college - with 5 kids and 2 in college at a time there was just NO way. There was no exception. There was no way around that. Period. I had to take out HUGE amounts of loans and I will repay them for the rest of my life as a result. In fact, at the moment - if I was given the choice between paying for health care vs paying off my student loans, I'd be FORCED to choose paying off my loans - because if I default on those I'd be absolutely 100% fucked on ever getting a loan ever again in my life. But I'd be willing to bet that I make too much to qualify for help under Edwards' plan.

                        So once again I'm stuck in the middle. Once again I can't afford the thing that is being DEMANDED of me - and I'll be PUNISHED as a result.

                        Should I thank you for that?

                        •  Actually, Edwards understands (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Inky

                          exactly the situation you have just described. He believes that the requirements for assistance are set too low. The middle class is being punished, and is unable to save money and grow their wealth. Edwards is especially concerned with the plight of many older Americans who receive no help because they own their homes. This, and the situation you just described, are an outrage to Edwards.

                          This candidate believes that the working class must be given the opportunity to save money, to own their homes, and to keep what they have saved.

                          Edwards believes that our economy and our country would be much stronger if our middle class is strengthened, instead of being left out of all the benefits.

                          Most of the reporting on Edwards focuses on his ideas to help the poor. But he has a ton of ideas to strengthen the middle class. Most of his union support has come from his plans to reward work and give the middle class a way to build wealth. Edwards has an amazing plan to restore the American dream for all of us.

                        •  I don't know all the details of the Edwards vs. (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Partially Impartial

                          Obama plans and in a way I don't think that's the real issue.  Neither of them will actually write the plan that gets through the Congress for whomever to sign.

                          The issue is about mandatory insurance or not, coupled with some way of paying for coverage for those who can't afford it. In principle some sort of mandate is better, whether we get the effective equivalent by taxing people on their income and just providing insurance for everybody (my favorite idea, but not perhaps politically doable) or whether we require people to pay if their taxable income is above a certain amount (perhaps with adjustments for dependents or whatever).

                          Suppose we don't mandate coverage.  Then we have two options when these people get sick, as some will. Pay for their coverage or let them suffer.  We can pay for their coverage by letting them immediately buy insurance so that now they are covered, or we can let them show up at the ER and get treated and then raise the rates of service for everyone else to cover the costs, thereby increasing the rates for the non-mandated coverage.  Either of these options raise the costs of insurance for those who get it.

                          Suppose instead we let them suffer. We refuse to treat them when they show up at the ER.  We make them wait to be insurable for enough time that we no longer have the cost-raising effect of their opting in only when they are ill or injured.  Do we really want to do that? It seems heartless and callous and not especially attractive to me.

                          I'd rather be arguing over how poor you have to be before taxes start subsidizing your premiums than arguing about mandates.  Making the subsidies substantial and having the not kick out until the incomes are genuinely such that the insurance is affordable seems to me to do much more for the less well off than arguing against mandatory buy in for those who can afford it.

                          •  Obama's plan covers those (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            mvr, Fonsia

                            who show up in an emergency room with no insurance. He doesn't force people to pay for something they've determined they can't afford.

                            •  That's the way it is now, too. (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              mvr

                              And people with insurance foot the bill.

                            •  That in a way is the point. Someone has to pay (0+ / 0-)

                              for that. I think it is fair that everyone pays in a little rather than that only those who have opted in for insurance pay for it.  Or that everyone pays in a little but only those who have opted in for insurance have to pay a larger share for that.

                              I'd prefer to do it with a general tax for single payer insurance while leaving people to choose their providers and also free to pay for extra care beyond what the single payer insurance would provide. But the next best thing is some other sort of mandate.

                              I'm not for sending people away who need treatment.  But at least a few who show up will be people who had the money to buy insurance and just did not do it.

                      •  You will never, ever...... (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        vernonbc

                        Get Rethugs and Blue Dogs to vote to force everybody to pay for Abortion.
                        That will be it. Game Over.
                        I can hear the Ads now.......

                        The Demoncrats want to MANDATE ABORTION. Do You want to be taxed to pay for murdering children?

                        Like it or not, that is exactly as far as a Mandate for Coverage will go.
                        The Rethugs are sandabagging right now. That is why none of them are talking about healthcare in the Primaries.
                        If anything can rally their base, it is the prospect of being FORCED to pay for every dirty hippie's abortion on demand.
                        I really don't see how Krugman could miss this obvious political impossibility.

                        Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. ..John F. Kennedy

                        by irishamerican on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:46:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The thing about Edwards, (0+ / 0-)

                          is his ability to explain the truth to people in a way that they can understand. Right now he is not getting enough media coverage to tell everyone how the mandate will work. When he explains it, people will understand. He is also good at explaining away Republican bull!

                        •  We fight it now, or we fight it later. (0+ / 0-)

                          But we'll have to fight it if we want UHC.  Nothing will change with time except more people will be dead from lack of care.

                          •  it would help if candidates would give us (0+ / 0-)

                            something worth fighting for.

                            "Mandated" means that I'll give my vote to the Democratic nominee. And otherwise, sit out the election.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 01:58:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  how about (0+ / 0-)

                          "{insert candidate name) will force you to buy health insurance with your hard-earned money!!!

                          And we won't be able to spin it because it will be true.

                          Now that I've had a better look at "mandated", my doubts as to whether we're going to get a Democrat in the White House

                          We've got too many consultants whose idea of "lower-middle class" is $100K a year and who honestly believe that the issue about mandating is lack of personal responsibility.

                          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                          by alizard on Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 01:57:43 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Social Security Is Not a Voluntary Program (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        mvr, Junior Bug, bettync
                        Social security deductions from our pay is mandatory

                        This is the perfect analogy.

                        Back in the 1930's when FDR pushed through Social Security, there were those who wanted to make it a voluntary system.

                        FDR had the good sense to make it a universal program with mandatory participation.  

                        Making Social Security a universal, mandatory program was the correct choice on grounds of policy - putting everyone in the system kept costs down - and the correct choice on grounds of politics - making it universal helped maintain support among the electorate.

                        Universal healthcare has been a goal of the left for many years now for precisely these reasons.

                        •  This isn't the 1930s. (0+ / 0-)

                          There was NO system in place in that case. You're talking about replacing several BILLION dollar industries. That's simply NOT going to happen. Ever.

                          •  Social Security is NOT a program (0+ / 0-)

                            that was intended to make billions of dollars for PRIVATE insurance companies.

                            If you want an accurate analogy based on old age pensions, try Thatcher's privatizing of their equivalent of Social Security. Which was an abject failure.

                            If America is going to survive the 21st Century as anything other than a failed state ravaged by global warming, we have no choice about bringing corporations into line and making sure that some multibillion dollar industries (Big Coal comes to mind) go out of business.

                            If this is totally off the table, there isn't much point in playing the political game. America's had it as a nation and the sole recourses for progressives is to figure out how to survive individually in a failed state or find a place to live where the people didn't give up on building a prosperous nation not under total corporate control.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 02:04:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  You can't prove that everyone would be (5+ / 0-)

                covered - even with a mandate.

                What makes a mandate even worse is that people would go uncovered - which is bad enough, but politicians could still CLAIM that everyone is covered because it's mandated. Add the penalties to that and I seriously can't comprehend how anyone can support it. It is a failure before it's even begun.

                •  Everyone Gets Enrolled (0+ / 0-)

                  Edwards has been laying out the automatic enrollment provisions of his plan over the past couple of days.  He's been showing exactly how everyone gets covered in practice in the real world.
                  •  And everyone pays. (0+ / 0-)

                    And apparently everyone's wages get garnished if they refuse to sign up and get automatically enrolled. Whether everyone can afford it or not!

                    •  You've Made My Point (0+ / 0-)

                      Folks can't "refuse to sign up" in a universal healthcare program.

                      The fact that folks can "refuse to sign up" for Obama's program is proof that it isn't universal healthcare.

                      -----

                      And again, John Edwards is blocking off $120 billion per year to pay for subsidies to make sure that everyone can afford to pay for healthcare, no matter how little they make.

                      •  The truth. (4+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        mvr, Elise, elwior, vernonbc

                        Only single payer is universal.  None of the plans put forth are that.  The fact remains, you have to put your underwear on before you put on your pants.  First you have to prove that the public option is a good option.  Once that is established, mandating will be simple.  Thinking we can mandate a program that hasn't been tried yet is political disaster and will never sell beyond these hallowed screens.  I like Edwards plan the most, but realistically, a foundation needs to be laid to reassure people who are nothing like us that the public option will be worthwhile.  Once we do that, heck, we can move on to single payer.
                        Harry and Louise will not stand in our way this time.
                        By the way, mark my words, it doesn't matter who we elect, there will be a legislative process and mandates will be the first thing compromised away.

                        Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

                        by Mannabass on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:13:23 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You're talking about FINING people. (4+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Geekesque, elwior, vernonbc, Fonsia

                        That's not acceptable.

                      •  if you believe that (0+ / 0-)

                        the purpose of government is to eliminate barriers between corporations and our money, than your support of Edwards ExtortionCare makes perfect sense.

                        Don't pretend that either he, you, or your program are progressive.

                        For progressives, 2008 is already over and we lost.

                        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                        by alizard on Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 02:11:21 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I liked it (11+ / 0-)

            I've been losing faith in Obama for a while, and he did a great job redeeming himself in my eyes in that exchange.

            I thought he was thinking about the issue, and he answered the freerider problem satisfactorily.

            And the reality is that yeah, none of these health care plans are going to make it in their current form through Congress, but they're all really good frameworks for an attempt to solve it without single payer.

            John McCain goes to bed every night after servicing by Joe Lieberman.

            by bhagamu on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:37:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everybody's missing the point here. (0+ / 0-)

              Look, I'm an Obama fan, but I'm not a fan of any of these healthcare plans.

              Folks, they're all still relying on the existing scam insurance companies. Edwards will garnish wages and send the money to the insurance companies. Hillary will think of some way to force us to do the same thing.

              And we all know how good the insurance companies are at denying care. It's how they make their money: by denying claims.

              Forcing you to buy health INSURANCE does NOT mean that you're going to get health CARE. I'm betting that the cheapest plans will have huge deductables, which means you have to pay the corporations but still can't afford to see a doctor. And with the Massachusetts companies jacking up the premiums, you can see what a scam this really is.

              I got a glimmer of hope back seeing Obama in that video posted above. Sounds like he's going to keep things open. Also, I know he's said before that you can choose to buy into a government plan if you want. I'd trust that to provide actual health CARE far more than keeping things privatized.

              But the only way to have truly universal health care is with a single payer plan--passed in California and vetoed by Schwartzenegger who intends to force us to send money to the verdammten insurance companies.

              Yeah. Republicans will love this stuff. Another major handout to the corporations. How any Democrat can support it is beyond me.

              May your entire existence be one sensuous, frolic-filled experience lived in defiance of care.

              by Fonsia on Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 01:48:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  One of the most focused diaries (10+ / 0-)

      I've seen in a long time, good job.

      I think the conclusion here is that mandates can end up being a vital part of the process, but they're only the gummy bear topping to the ice cream sunday of health care reform.

      John McCain goes to bed every night after servicing by Joe Lieberman.

      by bhagamu on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:32:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Elise (31+ / 0-)

      You and I often disagree, but I have always respected you and your thoughts anyway. And so it's good to actually find common ground on you with this.

      Of course, I think the best solution is universal single-payer care, getting insurance out of the process entirely, and I fault Obama for not backing it.

      However, you are absolutely dead on in your criticism of the individual mandate. It is a terrible, disastrous plan, no matter who is offering it - and I find it utterly damning that the so-called progressive champion of the middle class, John Edwards, would have the fucking IRS garnish people's wages for not being a part of this system.

      We can, and should, say more about Massachusetts. 200,000 uninsured is a large number for that state and suggests that their plan is a failure on its face. But it gets worse. What coverage people can afford, the minimum, comes with so little of health care actually covered that it is barely a step above junk insurance. For health insurance that actually would help someone the costs are quoted at around $4,000-$5,000, which is totally unacceptable.

      Many throw around "subsidy" and "tax credit" and "public option" but these are fundamentally flawed lipstick on a pig. The public option has massive problems - it will not be able to compete on an open market with private insurance. Insurers will find ways to dump the sick onto the public option. That will drive up the costs of the public option, and that causes a fiscal crisis. Either premiums have to go up - making the public option uncompetitive - or a tax bailout has to happen, causing a serious political problem.

      And a mandate does NOTHING to address the problems of insurers screwing over their policyholders by denying care and payment. Both Markos and his wife Elisa have had problems with this with Blue Cross. In September I wrote a diary that hit the top of the rec list about Blue Cross classifying a miscarriage as an "elective abortion" so as to get out of paying for it. Edwards' and Hillary's plan would not only do nothing to curb these horrific abuses, but would force people into this system.

      There are many more problems with a mandate but I'll leave it there for now. Mandates are bad, bad, bad, bad public policy. It is a shame that good Kossacks feel the need to take leave of their senses and defend them just because their chosen candidate has offered mandates. Obama's plans are insufficient, but hey, at least he respects the basic dictum of medical care: first, do no harm.

      Great job, Elise.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:38:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm less fussy over who COVERS me (6+ / 0-)

      if we could just do a "Medicare for all" type thing, then I'm cool with that... I'd think the bigger thing most people care about is who CARES for them. I want to pick my doctors. As do (I'm guessing) most other Americans.

      In fact, if I were covered by a Medicare-like system, I'd be freed from a lot of the BS I go through now. I need a headache specialist but the one who used to work at the place where I go to the doctor sucked... then she left there and moved to another large healthcare organization in my town. Now my healthcare organization has no one and doesn't know who to refer me to either. It's bad. If everyone could just pick their doctors, I could just go out and find a good headache doc.

    •  I don't agree with the premise (5+ / 0-)

        1.  That every American is covered, but also that the insurance they're getting is affordable.

        2. That every American is covered, but that they have a choice about who provides that coverage.

        3. That every American is covered, but that insurance companies cannot hike up rates.

        4. That every American is covered, but is not forced into coverage that they either do not want, or cannot afford.

        5. That every American is covered, but also that every American has equal access to quality health care.

      One, three, and five are rock solid for me.  

      As for two, what's wrong with single payer.

      I think (4) is oxymoronic.  Every American will not be covered unless some people are forced into coverage they do not want.  When healthy people refuse to enter the system, everyone loses out.

      This is the crux of the problem:

      Obama's plan is universal, and it was clearly conceived to be the most comprehensive plan. Is there a chance some people will opt not to pay for health insurance even after Obama's plan has worked to make it more affordable? Sure. That's their choice. I think it's best left to individual adults to make those choices when it concerns their own care.

      One of the longer struggles for the left in health care has been for mandated benefits.  The left wants things like diabetes care and cervical cancer screening included in every health plan, while the right argues that people who don't want that coverage shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

      But if only the people who have a benefit included in their plans are the ones who need it, they'll have to pay much more than others.  In other words, the people who need health care the most will find the care they need to be unaffordable.

      The same basic principle works with healthy people opting out of coverage altogether.  Insurance is supposed to pool risk, but if the low risk people opt out the pool becomes riskier overall--increasing the price of coverage.  If the healthy people can simply opt in once they get sick, they'll be passing off the higher costs until then.  

      One can make the argument that we shouldn't force people to pay for things they don't want for all kinds of spending programs.  I don't want to pay a school bond because I don't have kids, or I don't want to pay taxes for transportation systems I don't use.  It's one of the fundamental divides between liberalism and conservatism.

      •  The point is Unversal is Universal (0+ / 0-)

        Like other civilized countries

        Not

      •  To address your issues with 2 and 4 - (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bigpappa10834

        2 - As I said, I think single payer would be great - but I don't think it's feasible with the system we have now. It would literally harm our economy irreparably to institute single payer right now.

        4 - Obama's plan provides options. If someone doesn't want to be covered, as an adult, that's their choice. Again - we need to make the case FOR health care. Making the system better will make the system appealing to those healthy people.

        If I could pay for a decent health care plan right now - I would. I'm healthy. I'd do it anyway. I want to be insured. Period.

        And no - sorry, saying that I don't want mandated health insurance DOES NOT make me a conservative or an enemy or a REpublican, or any other right wing name you'd like to call me.

        Mandates do not work - if you read the diary, you'd know that.

        •  Being an adult does not recuse one (3+ / 0-)

          from societal obligations.  Do you think adults should be able to opt out of paying Medicare and Social Security taxes?

          And no - sorry, saying that I don't want mandated health insurance DOES NOT make me a conservative or an enemy or a REpublican, or any other right wing name you'd like to call me.

          I didn't call you any names, and nothing in my post is about you as a person.  I'm disputing your argument on a policy and philosophical level.

          If I could pay for a decent health care plan right now - I would. I'm healthy. I'd do it anyway. I want to be insured. Period.

          That's great, but it also means you're not one of the people we're talking about that will choose to opt out of the system.  

          Mandates do not work - if you read the diary, you'd know that.

          As someone who has worked in health policy and read a good deal of material in this area, I'll just say your diary is well written but unconvincing.  Given the amount of research and analysis that's gone into this question over the past decade, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume you've proven anything here.

    •  I disagree (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vernonbc, Fonsia

      You state:

      "First of all, let me make it clear that I think the best possible thing would be for every American to be covered by health insurance."

      My view is that the best possible thing would be for everyone to have access to health care.  In my view, health insurance is the problem, not the solution.  So, respectfully, I disagree with your basic premise.

      John McCain; more of the same Bush on Social Security

      by davehouck on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:58:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  great diary! thanks Elise! go Obama! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Elise
  •  Both Hillary and Edwards plan provide for (10+ / 0-)

    a public insurer open to everyone regardless of age, health or wealth. Massachusett's plan has no such option. They have a plan for low income residents that subsidizes their purchase of private insurance but that's it. It's a totally different plan.

    The problem with his Obama's plan - and the reason it won't get through congress - is that it does not introduce any competition into the system. Part of the genius of the public insurer, is that it introduced competition into a system where the corporation are all now working in lockstep together.

    To paraphrase Adam Smith - whenever a couple of businessmen get together, it results in a conspiracy against the people.

    Obama's plan does nothing to tackle the central drivers of the highcost of health insurance.

    The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

    by lorelynn on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:13:06 PM PDT

    •  Go to the link. Read it. And then come back (7+ / 0-)

      and PROVE this to me:

      Obama's plan does nothing to tackle the central drivers of the highcost of health insurance.

      Because it's a lie.

      •  The central drivers are the lack of (6+ / 0-)

        competition and profit motive. Now, there are other things that drive the cost up as well - decentralized and outdated storage systems, lots of stuff. All of the plans tackles those - and no, Obama's is no better than Edwards or Clinton on that front.

        But what he does not do is introduce competition into the system. And those 15 million people who get left out will be the least healthy, no doubt. The point to a public insurer that is mandated to provide the same level of care that private insurers are mandated to provide (preventive care, no canceling of policies, no preexisting conditions clauses) is that it provides the first competition the private insureres have encountered. If they raise their rates too high, people will quickly switch to the public insurer and get the same level of care. Again, anyone can join the public insurer and get first rate health care. Whether you're rich, or poor, healthy or fit - you can join. That's the key to making this thing work.

        The big problem with non-mandatory insurance is that young adults, in particular, are frequently not interested in spending any money whatsoever on health care they may not use for years. And with no way to mandate their participation in the system, the system becomes top heavy with less healthy participants - and drives up costs.

        The only real way of getting universal health care passed is if EVERYONE must partipate, and if people can keep what they have. Without those two things, we have no reason to make a change.

        The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

        by lorelynn on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:24:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Show me how Clinton or Edwards (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          casperr, Geekesque, bigpappa10834

          introduces competition into the system.

          •  With the public insurer. (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mvr, Nestor Makhnow, Junior Bug, Mannabass

            The public insurer provides the same level of care that the private insurers are mandated to provide, but because it's public, it will be less expensive and it will drive insurance costs down. It will be less expensive because there is no profit built in to the consumer's costs. For-profit companies would be competing with a non-profit structure. Because their healthiest clients would be more inclined to jump to the non-profit system, they have incentive to drive their costs downward - no such incentive exists now.

            Think about what would happen if you and I could join Medicare tomorrow. Would you pay for a private insurance policy if you get Medicare at a fraction of the cost? Those of us who have insurance through our employer and only pay a reasonable portion of the premium would likely keep what we have. But those of us who must buy individual policies or who have a private insurer than doesn't work well would quickly bail to the Medicare.

            Mandating that everyone participate floods the system with more healthy adults - that's a very big deal. That changes the entire nature of the debate. Providing a public insurer that everyone can join is the other key to making universal healthcare, in this early manifestation, cost effective.

            The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

            by lorelynn on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:18:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Elise

              If the Edwards plan passed as is, it would do the most to foster competition. And I am an open supporter of Obama.  However, Edwards makes many, many promises, and this isn't the first time.  Here is a choice quote:

              "Insurance companies have plenty of lobbyists fighting for them. I don't want to be their senator. I want to be yours."

              Sound familiar?  Is the quote from yesterday?  Last week?  Nope.  1998 when Edwards became a Senator.  As a Senator, he voted for the Bankruptcy bill, voted for NAFTA and worked his ass off selling us a bogus war:

              "Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

              Kind of sounds like a certain disgraced president, don't you think?  Hardly what I call "taking on the special interests".  I don't need to remind you what Obama was saying at that time, do I?

              Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...

              by Mannabass on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:24:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  No, You show US! (0+ / 0-)

            How....

            England

            France

            Germany

            Italy

            Sweden

            Norway

            Spain

            Portugal

            Denmark

            Canada

            Australia

            and all the rest, that would be everybody BUT the U.S., run their plans. Then you will see whose plan is best.

            And it ain't yours.

            'I'm writing as Nestor since scoop in it's awesome wisdom won't let me use my real screen name: A.Citizen'

            by Nestor Makhnow on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:33:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We are not any of those countries... (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              casperr, bigpappa10834, Akonitum

              and the comparisons do not stand. They make ZERO sense. None of those countries has our population, nor do they have the infrastructure we have. If you think you can just wave a wand and have single payer then have fun waving...while you're doing that the rest of us will be attempting to fix the system we have.

              •  And that matters why? (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                mvr, elwior, vernonbc

                France and Britain had a quarter of your population or so each, last I read, and Germany nearly a third. That's on the same scale.
                But I don't believe it matters at all. The US have xx% people who can not affort insurance from for-profit companies. What gives you the idea that any of those countries have less, by percentage?

                Infrastructure? Well, compare to Canada, then. Their country is even larger, more thinly populated, has way less taxpayers / insurance participants overall, and yet they apparently manage to get everyone insured.

                Freedom is not just a word. 'Freedom' is a noun.

                by intruder from Old Europe on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:57:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm talking about the economy... (0+ / 0-)

                  the health care system that we have in place already.

                  What you're talking about doing would mean literally ending at least 3 different BILLION dollar industries in this country. That would destroy what is left of our economy and put millions out of work. No joke.

                  The comparisons are not apt.

        •  Competition is BAD (9+ / 0-)

          It is not the answer to health care.

          Our goal should not be competition. Our goals should be to achieve affordable and comprehensive universal coverage.

          I know you mean well. But we need to not adopt right-wing frames in order to reform health care. Competition is a right-wing answer to our problems, and we should be better than that.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 05:44:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactamundo. (8+ / 0-)

            The problem is, the health care companies are publicly-traded entities more worried about their stock prices than the health of their customers.

            So-called "competition" is what is forcing coverage down and premiums up. This is the inevitable result of trying to please the institutional investors.

            There is no reason to think that health insurance would turn into a "price war" with different companies trying to charge less. We have "competition" right now, and it has only resulted in each company trying to pay for less and charge more.

            "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

            by kath25 on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:06:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If you don't want to use a competitive (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jd in nyc

            system for your healthcare, then you opt for the public insurer. Very simple.

            The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

            by lorelynn on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 06:19:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The problem is (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Elise, vernonbc

              The public insurer won't work under a competitive system. The ONLY way that public insurer will be able to provide comprehensive and affordable care to everyone who wants it is if it is paid for by taxes. Not premiums - taxes, that every American pays.

              That's why I said competition won't work. You're assuming that a market mechanism will produce what we want, and I'm trying to point out the underlying reasons why it will do no such thing.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:26:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I literally have no idea why you think that. (0+ / 0-)

                Why wouldn't premiums work?

                The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

                by lorelynn on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:52:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you pay a premium (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Elise, blue vertigo, vernonbc

                  To send your kids to school?

                  For fire protection?

                  Of course not.

                  A premium will ALWAYS be more costly to you than a tax. Whereas you have to pay the full cost of your premium, with a tax, you don't pay the full cost of your health care - it is instead subsidized through progressive taxation.

                  My point is that a public option cannot succeed unless every American is paying into it and there is no money going anywhere else. Competition won't work, and premiums won't work, because both fail to provide affordable AND comprehensive coverage - one of those must be s