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Here's a fun story to start your morning.

The AP is reporting on Calls in Sudan for execution of Briton.  

If you are not following this story, Gillian Gibbons, a Brit who was hired to teach English to 6 and 7 year old children in Sudan, allowed the class mascot, a teddy bear, to be named Mohammud by the children.  Complaints by parents led to her arrest and imprisonment, with the potential penalty of 40 lashes, and 18 months in prison, being held out as "justice" for this act.

Oh, the outrage!

Oh the horror!

Six and seven year old children, who live in a population in which more than 1/2 of the males are named Mohammud, decided to name a beloved teddy bear after the Prophet.  The response?  Kill the teacher.

Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed. They did not try to stop the rally, which lasted about an hour.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The face of Islam which dominates the press is of the scholar, diplomat, and rational actor on the world stage.  We are constantly reassured of the "moderation" of Isalm.  Of it humane and gentle face.  But that is a sell job as outrageous as the selling of America to the Oil Sheiks.

We constantly assume that they really can't be that bad.  Can they?

In a culture the hates and abuses women, assigning them the single role of breeding machines for more Islamic males, trains, and celebrates it's children when they are blown up in the name of politics, riots over Danish cartoons, and continually trys to destroy the world in the name of returning the Caliphate, yes, they are that bad.

Are we pulling a Neville Chamberland here?  Trying to get along.  Trying to appease.  Trying to accept, in the name of tolerance and religious freedom, a destructive and cancerous growth on the face of civilization?  With one third of the world embracing Islam, and seeing the disruptive, dangerous, and violent face of that cultural phenomena somewhere in the world nearly every day, can we continue to pretend that Islam is, in this type of public manisfestation, just another quirky little disagreement among friends?

It's not enough to note that these are the people who were tolerant in Spain (before they drove the Jews out) invented many of the gadgets that furthered civilization 1,000 years ago, and represent much of the bedrock of modern civilization.  They have gotten seriously off track.  They have been led by their religious cranks, eager to establish their own personal power, to pursue a path that is the anthesis of modern progressive goals.  

It's time to stop pretending we can negotiate with a culture that is bent on uncivilized, self destructive and completely nonfunctional positions on the values we espouse.  We are watching millions of people, who are bat shit crazy, setting themselves up as the arbitor of life and death over teddy bears!!    

Originally posted to Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:08 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I am throughly tired of (29+ / 0-)

    a multi-cultural, politically correct world view that tries to make a place for the worst sociological instincts of ignorant and foolish people.

    There.  I feel better now...

    "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

    by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:09:49 AM PST

    •  I saw someone on Fark (8+ / 0-)

      suggest that they are forcing the bear to be renamed 'Cassius.'

      It's a news show, involving actual news, to about the same extent that Cheez Whiz involves actual cheese. - Bob Harris

      by lizpolaris on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:20:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i wonder if this is a troll diary (0+ / 0-)

        or somoeone has stole Granny Doc's username/password

        It's time to stop pretending we can negotiate with a culture that is bent on uncivilized, self destructive and completely nonfunctional positions on the values we espouse......  

        What the F is this? Blatant racism on DKOS?

    •  Granny? (7+ / 0-)

      The world is full of people who seem to be bat shit crazy. Just as every individual who behaves irrationally has their story, groups have their story as well.

      This diary indicates that you have neither looked for reasons behind the behavior, nor differentiated between the segment who behaved this way and the far larger group of Muslims who did not.

      Try to fight the desire to view a large and diverse foreign culture as, "they". It dehumanizes people and removes any common ground that could be a bridge to understanding and change.

      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

      by Mr X on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:35:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  In other words... (7+ / 0-)

      You're tired of a politically correct world-view that tries to make a place for people you don't like?

      I'm not defending the actions of these people and if they came knocking on my door, I'd show them my hand, but they certainly don't have the monopoly on this kind of behavior.  Christianity's history is written in the blood of the non-believer, as is Judaism's, as is Islam's.  Didn't Ann Coulter herself say that we should go over there, convert them to Christianity and kill the rest?  Where does she stand in your lexicon of 'ignorant and foolish people'?

      Sorry, but I think applying the reactions of these people to over a billion people is far too simplistic.  I don't think all Christians are insane just because some of them kill abortion doctors or believe that the influence of homosexuals and liberals caused 9-11.  You're making it too easy, and it's not

      "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

      by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:39:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't over interpret my words. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malthus, Dania Audax, Dimetrodon, papicek

        I am saying that anyone who uses death threats to enforce compliance with their narrow world view is bat shit crazy.  The general reaction of the uneducated Islamic masses to perceived affronts is scary as hell.

        I noted the rational face of Islam in the diary, but they represent a small and highly public group that provides cover for the horrid excesses of the mass of Islamists.

        "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

        by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:43:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Respectfully disagree (6+ / 0-)

          First off, your acknowledgement of the rational face of Islam is noted and appreciated.

          I disagree, though, with your claim that that rational face is in the minority.  I live in a section of Brooklyn where I can hear both the imam's call to worship and a siren every Friday evening calling the Orthodox Jews to get inside for the Sabbath.  And as far as I can tell, while they may not be inviting each other over for tea and cookies, there's a respectful, albeit distant, relationship between Jews and Muslims.  After the fall of the World Trade Center, every Muslim I talked to, without exception, expressed shock and outrage that their religion was used in this manner, as well as a desire to show the rest of the world that real Islam is not so awful.

          I also respectfully disagree with your claim that you're using this diary as a general diatribe against any radical 'who uses death threats to enforce compliance'.  I can't find any statement in your diary that makes mention of or alludes to any other people than Muslims or lumps the whole in to the category of crazed lunatic.  I honestly don't think I'm over-interreting you words, but I do think you're under-interpreting them.

          "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

          by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:02:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Some numbers and proportions: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      malthus, Mr X, LynneK, mayim

      The average 20-year-old adult has 100,000 hairs on his scalp. Take 13,000 (unshaved) 20-year-old adults and line them up. Among these 13,000 people standing before you, there are 1,300,000,000 individual strands of hair. The number of individual hairs on the scalps is the same as the number of Muslims there are in the world today.

      If you count all- and I mean EVERY SINGLE one of the Muslims who have carried out terrorist actions in the last 30 years, how many hairs from those 13,000 scalps do you think they represent? How about the grossly inflated figure of 5 million (50 scalps)? That exaggerated number is .38% of the total. I guarantee that whatever the actual number of Islamic terrorists is, it ain't enough to make an accurate judgement on the peacefulness of Islam. 1 billion, three hundred million Muslims. Any idea of what proportion of those thirteen times a thousand times a thousand times a thousand people have never killed anybody?

      Or, you can ignore the numbers and believe the majority are dangerous, because of what you hear on the news.

      Somebody told me that I was being "politically correct"!  Gasp!  They didn't tell me that I was factually incorrect, however.

    •  Fanatics (6+ / 0-)

      of ANY stripe are dangerous to humans and other living things.

  •  In fairness, (6+ / 0-)

    I don't think Islam is to blame here -- or at least, not the local Muslims, anyhow.

    The news coverage I've read makes it pretty apparent that it's the Sudanese government that is to blame for this injustice.

    They are merely using Islam as an excuse to crack down on a British private school, IMO.

    •  My take is different. (4+ / 0-)

      Every government which is supposed to be governing an Islamic country is under constant threat of huge masses of rabid lunitics overthrowing their rule.  They cope with this by giving tacit support to the most outrageous claims and pronouncements of the Imams who promote fear, anger and threat to us.

      Our responsce is to ensure Free Trade.

      "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

      by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:19:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can understand that. (5+ / 0-)

        When I heard about this story in American news outlets, I went to the Guardian UK because I trust their reporting more. They actually bothered to talk to local Muslims, and they were very reasonable about the situation.

        Indeed, they were as alarmed about it as the British were.

        But here in the states, the story is being used to bludgeon Muslims.

        •  I first got the story (3+ / 0-)

          from the BBC.  I rarely watch US media, any more.

          "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

          by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:26:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  come on (6+ / 0-)

          so you don't think there are extremists out there who are calling for this woman's death? You seriously don't think this kind of thing happens?

          Somali culture began to demand that Ayaan too become a submissive woman who scrubbed away her own personality and sexuality. When she was five years old, she was made “pure” by having her genitals hacked out with a knife. It was a simple process. Her grandmother and two of her friends pinned her down, pulled her legs apart, and knifed away her clitoris and labia. She remembers the sound even now – “like a butcher, snipping the fat off a piece of meat.” The bleeding wound was sewn up, leaving a thick tissue of scarred flesh to form as her fleshy chastity belt. She could not walk for two weeks

          Islamic extremists who torture and commit extreme violence against women on a DAILY BASIS should be condemned and never apologized for or explained away because we're afraid of appearing hawkish. Ridiculous.

          How is it we consider ourselves feminists or friends of feminists around here yet we can't have a conversation about those parts of Islamic cultures that regularly commit extreme violence against women?

          My candidate was virgin-born out of an apple pie left to cool in the shade of an American flag. - Hunter

          by Buffalo Girl on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:32:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say that. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mr X, Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second

            Of course there are crazies, and they should be resisted and reformed.

            I'm just tired of people assuming that all there are is extremists.

            •  there are entire governments (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dania Audax, Granny Doc

              and cultures that are set up to deprive women of their human rights and to regularly commit violence against them. I find that extremely offensive.

              My candidate was virgin-born out of an apple pie left to cool in the shade of an American flag. - Hunter

              by Buffalo Girl on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:43:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  How often do you voice complaints about (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LynneK

                the cultures of sub-Saharan Africa which are as sexist and homophobic as any on the planet.

                Somehow, the non-Muslim populations which do it never get the blanket condemnation which Muslim countries do.

                •  so because there is some group of people (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dania Audax, Granny Doc, pelagicray

                  that I've apparently managed to neglect being sufficiently outraged about, I am racist or not liberal enough? What's your point?

                  My candidate was virgin-born out of an apple pie left to cool in the shade of an American flag. - Hunter

                  by Buffalo Girl on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:04:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why do Muslims always get special treatment? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LynneK

                    The crazy stuff done by some Muslims (suicide bombs, beheadings, angry mobs, hostage taking) gets done every day by non-Muslims, but only Muslims get associated with it.  How come?

                    •  Snark? (3+ / 0-)

                      When you start talking about resistance fighters, or terrorism designed to end an occupation, you're into a whole new argument. Whenever you violently occupy a country against the will of its citizens, you're going to get violent resistance. That's not about Islam. That's about native citizens saying "get the fuck out of my country."

                      How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

                      by rhetoricus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:25:28 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Darn right. But although a Muslim may be as (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        malthus, rhetoricus

                        sexist, authoritarian, uneducated, fundamentalist and just plain brutal as a non-Muslim from anywhere else in the world, for some reason when a Muslim does it, it's "typical".  When a Tamil blows himself up, it's not indicative of Tamil culture.  When a Colombian kidnaps someone, it doesn't stem from Latin American culture. If a Latvian man beats his wife, we don't say "Oh, those sexist Latvians."

                        Muslims, though, they're different.  If a Muslim does something bad, it's because he's a Muslim.  As such, we are free to generalize about them.

                        •  Roger that. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second

                          ..and you are so right. Why is it not ok to say "Those sexist Latinos," or "those psycho Irish" or "those violent Israelis" or "those ignorant Catholics" for the actions (or policies) of a few, but it is always ok to blame Islam?

                          And on that note, if we are blaming Islam, why are we so cozy with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates? Why doesn't FOX complain about that?

                          How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

                          by rhetoricus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:04:57 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Good point and a precise one. (3+ / 0-)

                        However, excluding Iraq and areas occupied by Israel after 1967 there is enough of this going on that is not in that specific category. At the same time all of that has a great deal to do with old tribal cultures telling the modern world to "Get out of my world" with a vengence.

                        I extend this to what we are seeing in the U.S. with some of the "Christian right" as well. It is strongest and has its roots in the south. That area was a fairly homogeneous cultural entity with a myth of the conquered nation largely left to its own until the population  upheavals of WW II. That ebbed, then came back and began intruding with civil rights. A part of the reaction was a radicalization of religion in that region. Then it fell neatly into the Republican "Southern Strategy" and began intruding upon the larger culture with demands it conform to narrow religious views on social issues.

                        There was religious violence there too, just much moderated by taking place in a strong nation with much less tolerance for violence and much better able to crush those involved.

                        Expecting pure free enterprise to serve a population is like expecting a garden to feed a family by simply throwing out bags of seed on the ground. (Me)

                        by pelagicray on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:03:54 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Are you serious? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Anna M, Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second

                      Care to back this up? Where are there significant "suicide bombs, beheadings, angry mobs, hostage taking" going on where the perps claim some other religion?

                      Sure it is a minority of Muslims. Sure other groups do some of these things currently, but a significant number? I scan the world press and the reason "Muslims get associated with it" is that the guilty proudly claim that association.

                      It is past time that moderate Christians and Muslims (and Jews, Hindus and all the others) stand up to their own claimants of religion who do these things as infidels. I believe that is a precise technical term: infidelity to the real teachings of the religion.

                      Expecting pure free enterprise to serve a population is like expecting a garden to feed a family by simply throwing out bags of seed on the ground. (Me)

                      by pelagicray on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:48:49 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Tamils blow themselves up (0+ / 0-)

                        Beheadings happen in animist parts of Africa.

                        Have enough Muslims, out of a billion, beheaded enough people to make rational to associate it with them as a group?  How many before we can call it a significant proportion.

                        •  Yes? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Granny Doc

                          Locally noteworthy in the scope of a civil war. On a similar global scale? Not by a long shot.

                          Expecting pure free enterprise to serve a population is like expecting a garden to feed a family by simply throwing out bags of seed on the ground. (Me)

                          by pelagicray on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:08:23 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  How many have to do it before it's a significant (0+ / 0-)

                            part of the total population?  0.001%?  1% -which I guarantee is not the percentage of Muslims blowing themselves up.  

                            To be honest, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, I don't quite "get" you, yet.

                          •  What do you not get? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Granny Doc

                            Tamil terror is pretty much confined to one area and one issue. Even that issue is in the context of what might be called a "liberation" campaign. I am also discounting the violence in Iraq and fringes of Israel that can be considered insurgent or "liberation" as well.

                            What I am not about to discount are the threats and actual conduct resulting from European culture's exercise of their religious liberties. Their freedom of speech as with the cartoons. Or even the violent reactions within Muslim countries and society to non Muslims cultural "mistakes" as with this teddy bear incident.

                            From Indonesia into the cities of Western Europe and the Americas we see a pattern of violence and threat of violence based on a religious claim of "insult to the prophet" and in an effort to force others to comply in religious practice they reject.

                            As for "cultural mistakes" and insults? How about this? Large masses of Muslims in a a city insult a western belief, any belief, ones such as freedom of speech and religion that are so often "insulted" in Muslim lands. We have the power, one megaton air burst in violent retaliation. A Muslim man and his wife refuse to dress as is European practice-her head to toe covering is offensive to many westerners. Take them both an throw them in jail with some beatings thrown in. Maybe threaten death.

                            That way is idiocy and does lead to cultural war, yet on a large scale we are seeing Islamic regimes allow and even foster that kind of thing--even with this teddy bear thing. In effect they are pushing a cultural/religious war that will not be tolerated forever by non Muslims--and that includes major non European populations.

                            Moderate Muslims had damn well wake up to that fact and begin speaking out clearly. They do not need India, China, Japan, non Muslim Africa and all European based societies deciding, with good reason, Muslims are inherently dangerous and beginning to quarantine and expell. Nobody needs that kind of result, but such idiocy as the cartoon and teddy bear incidents are building pressures for that in otherwise fairly tolerant people in Europe and those other societies.

                            Expecting pure free enterprise to serve a population is like expecting a garden to feed a family by simply throwing out bags of seed on the ground. (Me)

                            by pelagicray on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 12:06:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't get how the diarist can comfortably demon (0+ / 0-)

                            ize a whole group of people based on what she sees on the news, when we are not comfortable doing that with other groups. The news media will tell you who'se nuts, who's dangerous and who's stupid, but they don't tell you enough to base a value judgement of the whole darn culture on.  From reading the Czech newspapers, I could easily have the impression that Czechs are some of the most nefarious people on earth. And yet, I don't have that impression. And I don't require a native Czech to reassure me that, despite what's in the paper, they're really ok.  Don't need an African American male to tell me that what I see on the local news isn't a whole representation of the local African American society.

                            Not that I'm not concerned about militant oversensitive brands of Islam, but I'm not going to go around trying to make dramatic statements which make me feel better but which lowers the level of intercultural dialogue to 19the century levels.

                            As for the "not getting" of my last statement, it stemmed from the fact that it was 7:00 pm Czech time on a Friday and I'd been up since 5:00 am.

                          •  Wasn't really a direct reply to your comment (0+ / 0-)

                            now that I look at it but, it addressed some of it, sort of.  I'm still tired. In short, I don't see much of the problems Muslim societies and governments have as stemming from a religion which makes them crazy.  The craziness is there, from ignorance and poverty and inferiority, but, as with thugs of all religions (or heck, non religious doctrines like Neoconism), I don't judge the essence of the religon by those who practice thuggery on its behalf. Provoking, as the Danish cartoons were 100 percent intended to do, will always bring out the worst.  
                             Eh, this message isn't any better.

      •  GD, could you explain (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        how free trade has any impact whatsoever on the internal policies of Islamic Countries? I assume that was a throw away line, but I wonder if you've thought it through. Should we blockade the middle east?

        •  Free Trade (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rhetoricus

          encourages economic exchange by multinational corporations with any, and all, entities, regardless of their human rights record, over all sanity, or effects of their governanace on the populations they control.  As long as the almighty dollar (or Euro) is being moved around, Free Trade doesn't care what evils in social systems are tolerated, encouraged, or bred.

          It really wasn't a throw away line.  Most of the problems we are having can be traced to the unfettered pursuit of money, irrespective of honor, or the common good.

          "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

          by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:38:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I fundamentally disagree with you (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lying eyes, Granny Doc, Chuckie

            We have the opposite of free trade with Cuba, and its government is just as oppressive as ever.

            Frankly, I've come to the conclusion that trade policy is not useful in directing social policy around the world, and I agree with most economists--including the liberal ones--who think that free trade is an intrinsic good.

            •  Wait.. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              The Termite, Granny Doc

              Granny doc didn't say that an embargo would magically get rid of any county's oppression. She said that exploitative trade policies can create a lot of suffering. Do you really need more documentation about that? Because I have quite a lot of it. Shall we start with outsourcing to and massively trading with countries with very cruel labor policies and no environmental regulations?

              How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

              by rhetoricus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:29:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  How do you propose to correct these problems (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Granny Doc

                in a trade agreement? My premise is that you can not. So either you have an embargo or you trade.

                •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Granny Doc

                  It's a moral question, as well as a pragmatic one. Violent and unjust practices always come back to harm the perpetrator (or the funders of them), in the form of overthrown governments, terrorism, black market crime, environmental problems, etc. I'd rather pay up front for fair trade practices, thank you.

                  How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

                  by rhetoricus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:59:49 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You haven't answered my question (0+ / 0-)

                    should we halt trade with all countries that have policies we don't like? If so, who gets to decide which countries we should trade with? Do you think that the Cuban people are better off because we don't trade with Cuba?

                    •  'Morality' doesn't drive trade (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second

                      ...at least, not in this country.  Look how many repressive regimes we trade with!  Companies will divest their businesses from regimes such as these  only when the Boys On The Board determine that it's in their financial interest to do so.

                      "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

                      by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:10:11 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  meh (0+ / 0-)

                        You know what this sounds like to me? The left wing version of nativism. You still haven't proposed an alternative.

                        •  Alternative? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Granny Doc

                          You're right, I haven't posed an alternative because I don't have one.  I'm not sure there is one, now will there be until decisions are made by companies for reasons other than profit.  Want to take a bet on when exactly that's going to happen?  Sure, you can point out examples of good works performed by companies (I'm cynical of that, unfortunately, especially when they advertise how you should buy from them because of those good works).  A corporation will act in its own interest, period.  Any thing else positive that happens out of that attitude is secondary to profit and responsibility to the shareholder.

                          As for nativism, can you explain?  You threw that out without any sort of context and I'd like to be able to respond to it

                          "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

                          by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:21:34 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Fundamentally (0+ / 0-)

                            I agree with Paul Krugman on the issue:

                            The point is that all that matters for the gains from trade are the prices at which you trade - it makes absolutely no difference what forces lie behind those prices. Suppose your country has been cheerfully exporting airplanes and importing clothing in return, believing that the comparative advantage of your trading partners in clothing is "fairly" earned through exceptional productive efficiency. Then one day an investigative journalist, hot in pursuit of Kathie Lee Gifford, reveals that the clothing is actually produced in 60-cent-an-hour sweatshops that foul the local air and water. (If they hurt the global environment, say by damaging the ozone layer, that is another matter - but that is not the issue).You may be outraged; but the beneficial trade you thought you had yesterday has not become any less economically beneficial to your country now that you know that it is based on these objectionable practices. Perhaps you want to impose your standards on these matters, but this has nothing to do with trade per se - and there are worse things in the world than low wages and local pollution to excite our moral indignation.

                            Your "point" about corporations is a non sequitur, it seems to me. Are we supposed to abolish them too?

                          •  Explain (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Granny Doc

                            Well, first of all, I think we agree on the point you made earlier that free trade is intrinsically good.  I'm not suggesting that we abolish corporations, and I'm not sure what I said that made you say that.  I'm only stating that a corporation will act primarily in its own interest and that all other interests are secondary.  Like it or lump it, that's just the way it is

                            As for the Krugman quote, I agree with some of that, too, but ...I choose not to wear Nike shoes or go to WalMart because I don't care for their business practices.  So I guess that's an embargo, but I don't expect little old me to force Michael Jordan to not sell their shoes.  I also buy Fair Trade Coffee and not Starbucks, in part because I like what the Fair Trade concept represents, but also in part because I think Starbucks makes shitty coffee.  If I find out that Fair Trade is bunk, well then, maybe I'll just start growing the damn beans on my roof.

                            I'm not imposing my standards on anyone but myself, and while that may not have a big effect on Nike or Burger King, it has a huge and satisfactory effect for me. So yeah, you're right, trade policy is not enough to drive social policy of other countries, I've never stated otherwise.  But it's enough to drive the Social Policy of Me, and dammit, isn't that a start?

                            And...I'd really like to know what you meant about my being a nativist, so please respond.

                            "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

                            by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:56:15 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That the opposition to trade (0+ / 0-)

                            comes from a fear and misunderstanding of what trade does and what regulation of trade can do. All too often, trade is treated as a scapegoat for the real issue (jn your case, a dislike of corporations, and for others a  dislike of foreigners).

                            I note your handle just now with some amusement. It strikes me that Malthus got it completely wrong with regard to overpopulation.

                          •  Glad you're amused (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Granny Doc

                            Don't read too much into the handle, though, I picked it because that was a nickname my parents gave me as a play on my real name.  I'm not fully conversant on Malthusian philosophy, so if I say that he strikes me as somewhat Darwinian, don't crucify me.

                            I don't really have a dislike of corporations, but I think I have a very clear idea as to what their motives and purposes are and I make my own consumer choices based on that.  To me, the gremlin is that people far too often take no responsibility for their purchasing power.  I can't control them, but having greater control over where my dollar goes works pretty well for me!

                            "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain--

                            by malthus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 10:17:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Huge masses of rabid lunatics in Indonesia? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dimetrodon

        In Bosnia Hercogovina?  In Senegal?

  •  Christianity is no better!! (12+ / 0-)

    If you think about it, Christianity has 600 years of civilization head start on Islam.  Think of what "Christians" have believed, called for and done in the last 600 years.  Many still believe homosexuals and [female] adulterers should be put to death.  Before we denounce the backwards Muslim Barbarians, we should examine our own recent history and barbaric beliefs.

  •  I think (13+ / 0-)

    someone in Denmark needs to do some editorial cartoons about this.

  •  "They" and "We" need to be better defined. (5+ / 0-)

    It really does no good to say: "They are batshit crazy".  Argue against the behavior, and those who engage in it.  Be specific:  death for naming a Teddy Bear anything is nuts.  Mob rule -- which has not prevailed -- is nuts.

    And note this well:  when "It's time to stop pretending we can negotiate with a culture" comes from someone's lips, it is a call for violence, because violence is what lies outside the wiggle line that defines the border of negotiation.  Are you calling for the use of force?  For violent destruction?

    Why?

    If you are, there is a no small amount of bat shit in your cereal, too.

    Bush and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS. What part of "Aggressive War is a war crime" and "Torture is a crime against humanity" can you argue against?

    by Yellow Canary on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:21:43 AM PST

    •  Lovely with the right granola and a bit of yogurt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      Um.... just saying.

    •  Actually, my call is for (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, kayfromsouth, Dimetrodon

      a tried and true social lever.  Ignore them. Shun them.

      Stop trying to negotiate by coming home.  Stop trying to pretend we can "democratize" them by leaving them, and their oil, to their own devises.  Withdraw and let their leaders and rules stew in the mess they have created.  Stop bailing them out.

      "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

      by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:24:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I still think you tar with too wide a brush ... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr X, Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second, JeffW

        ... who is "them"?  Who is "their"?

        Ignore them.
        Shun them.
        we can "democratize" them
        their oil
        their own devises
        let their leaders
        they have created
        bailing them out

        As for "we" in "we can 'democratize' them" -- that was always a lie hiding the theft of oil -- "we" clearly don't give a whole cave of bat shit about democracy.  One of "our" best friends, over there in "their" part of the world, is a military dictator (military dictatorship is anathema to democracy).  "We" give him billions of "our" dollars, and in return he has provided safe haven for Osama bin Laden.

        Bush and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS. What part of "Aggressive War is a war crime" and "Torture is a crime against humanity" can you argue against?

        by Yellow Canary on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:38:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not all of them are bat-shit crazy. (8+ / 0-)

    We need to deal with them the same way I would prefer to deal with Christians and Republicans...

    That is, have the ones that aren't guano-maniacal get rid of the ones who are.
    Preferably by convincing them of the error of their ways, rather than more extreme solutions, but hey, it's their problem, right?

    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly."

    by Niniane on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:23:26 AM PST

  •  I'm with Granny on this one (5+ / 0-)

    I was just watching this on the news and had exactly the same thoughts. I had always held out hope that somehow we could come to some kind of understanding with the Islamists and end this war. Watching the video of a mob demanding the execution of a teacher for naming a Teddy Bear Muhammed made me realize that is not possible. We're going to have to fight these people to the bitter end.

    When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.---Sinclair Lewis

    by rmonroe on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:24:25 AM PST

  •  I almost posted a similar sentiment as a comment (4+ / 0-)

    in an open thread.  

    Are there any Muslims here who can explain this kind of behavior?  Is this religion so fragile that any slight must be met with a death penalty?  Why is that?  Doesn't that strike you as strange and ultimately self-defeating?

  •  You realize that there are Muslims who DON"T (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mr X, droogie6655321, Granny Doc

    want to see this teacher executed.  I mean, like, a lot of them.  

    •  The rational face of Islam (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buffalo Girl, droogie6655321

      that I acknowledge.  But they are too small a minority among the 2.2 BILLION muslims to have any effect, as yet.

      "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

      by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:30:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's the noisy ones that get heard (5+ / 0-)

        dr zombie mentions Fred Phelps. He doesn't represent even 1 percent of Christians, and yet he's always on the news. He's always given a forum.

        •  In other words... (4+ / 0-)

          It's not newsworthy when a Christian or a Muslim anywhere on the planet, goes quietly to a mosque or church every week, reads from the Bible or Koran for guidance, says a short prayer to Allah or God, and then goes home and treats his or her family with kindness.

          •  no shit, I'm enormously offended by this (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second

            diary, the "they," the "them," and especially:

            "But they are too small a minority among the 2.2 BILLION muslims to have any effect, as yet."

            And how does this diarist "know" that almost ALL the 2 billion muslims on the planet are "bat shit crazy" and "huge masses of hepped up lunitics (sic)"?

            FROM WATCHING U.S. TV. Just like all her other previous (in theory) more "progressive" rants that have made the rec list.

            •  I apologize (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CD in TX, Buffalo Girl

              for any offense I have inflicted on you, personally.

              I do have a question though.  If my diaries are always so offensive, why do you continue to read and comment?

              I will observe a strong tendency, by you and some others, to over determine my use of language.  Reading skills are an important component of this medium.

              Once again:

              They, as used in this title, refers to the Sudanese who demanded the execution of a school teacher for allowing her primary school class to name a teddy bear Mohammud.

              They represent a significant aspect of Islam, and must not be given absolution for their craziness.

              "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

              by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:55:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  some muslims (7+ / 0-)

        like Irshad Manji agree with you.

        The White House isn’t protesting. The Muslim world isn’t protesting. Those polite Christian theologians who wrote a letter of peace to Muslims last weekend — nope, they aren’t protesting.

        Thank God CNN is making a federal case out of the absurd treatment of a young Saudi woman who’s been imprisoned and sentenced to 200 lashes. Her crime? Consorting with man not related to her, then being abducted, then getting gang-banged, then speaking to the media.  All neatly packaged as “illegal mingling.”

        Her real offense is that, in being raped and speaking up about it, she has tarnished the “honor” of her entire family. Honor trumps justice in much of the Muslim world, and we’d better understand how that works if we’re going advance human rights.

        My candidate was virgin-born out of an apple pie left to cool in the shade of an American flag. - Hunter

        by Buffalo Girl on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:35:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's the same with Chrisitanity (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc, JeffW

        It is only the stupid portion of the religious  that political and religious leaders take advantage of by riling them up with fundamentalist fervor.

      •  Where'd you get the 2.2 billion number from (0+ / 0-)

        If 1 out of 6 people on this planet is nuts, why are any of the rest of us still here?  They've got the numbers, yet, for some reason, Europe, the Americas, and the rest of Asia and Africa are not engaged in mortal combat.  

        •  That was the number (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timbuk the Second

          given by the Muslim intellectual interviewed on BBCAmerica, last night.  Sorry.  I don't rmemeber his name.  He was, by the way, as horrified as I am about this whole thing.

          "I know that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" Tom Lehrer

          by Granny Doc on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:02:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  There are a few Christians (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc, Timbuk the Second, JeffW

      who don't want to see abortion clinics being blown up.  Doesn't seem to matter.

  •  Every Cultutre has their Pat Robertsons (8+ / 0-)

    and Phred Phelps.

    And at this point in time they are in power.

    Bush is fucking nuts.

    Iran's president is fucking nuts.

    Certainly bin Laden is nuts. Holy text-thumping manipulators.

    Who hate science for the way it enables people to think for themselves versus living in fear of what they are expected to believe.

    Granny... I am upset you have elected to smear them in this way. This story is awful, but no more awful that he horrible things we do to brown-skinned people here.

    it's getting selective media attention that, for example, our Immigration Detention centers have killed a lot of people yet it slides under the radar.

    They ALL have to go.

    I do think that genuine Muslims and genuine Christians need to be a hell of lot more outspoken about the evil shit being perpetrated in their names.

    GreenState Project: Democratic Talking Points for Cannabis Reform.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:29:12 AM PST

  •  It's about as bad as the story of (6+ / 0-)

    Saudi Arabia  punishing a female victim of gang rape with 200 lashes and six months in jail.  And then there's the story of the village girl in Pakistan who was raped and forced to parade naked through her village, because her cousin had eloped with another woman.

    I agree Granny Doc, they are bat-shit crazy, among other things.

    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mr X, Anna M, Timbuk the Second

      People living in barbaric situations do barbaric things.

      Were there more Christians living in such desolate, violent corners of the world, or more athiests, or more Buddhists, then there would be more extremists with those beliefs.

      •  There are a lot of barbarous regions of the world (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buffalo Girl, Anna M, Granny Doc

        that are Buddhist, where these kind of atrocities don't seem to happen.  It's not the physical or economic circumstances, it's their religion and culture— and the happy multicultural jelly roll hug of the left deliberately obscures or ignores this unfortunate truth: some cultures are ugly and need to be resisted.

        •  where's the frigging pictures from Abu Ghraib (4+ / 0-)

          when you need them? The pictures of children maimed by U.S. cluster bombs? The pictures of waste devastating Indonesian tribes around Baechtel's copper/gold mine? The pictures of the Pomo Indians (maybe one of the few cultures in history that really was peaceful) hunted down, killed and displayed like animals by "Christians"?

          Where's the pictures of the Southern families, men women and children, happily picnicking at summer lynchings not all that long ago in the U.S.?

          Where's the pictures of the frigging Catholic priests going GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT to their altar boys? (on 2nd thought, I'll pass on that one).

          And how about the pictures of rape of non-violent offenders in U.S. men's prisons, while the U.S. prison guards not only stand by, but encourage the rapists keeping the prisonors in line? We all know it happens.

          The pictures of the babies abandoned in the trash cans by their teenage mothers who can't get birth control or abortions in the U.S. in the 21st century due to Christian prejudice; the pictures of dead women in their kitchens who tried to give themselves abortions?

          The pictures of the (according to accepted statistics) the 1 in 4 U.S. women who are victims of domestic violence in their lifetimes? Two of these women were shot in my own small town in the last month.

          Where's the pictures of the homeless vets? The millions of U.S. children going to bed hungry every night? The pictures of the teenage boys killing people at their schools for fun?

          All human cultures and almost all religions have their ugly elements. And human history ("his story") is full of atrocities. especially atrocities against women and children. No culture is exempt -- certainly not Buddhism (look at the history of the Buddhist rulers of Tibet).

          •  Not enough Americans or Christians explicitly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Anna M

            condemned what Abu Ghraib, so therefore that means that Americans and Christians think that what happened at Abu Ghraib is ok.

            I mean, if you don't disavow the crazy actions of people who have something in common with you, what else can it mean except you are complicit?

            Jeez.

          •  Point well taken. I decry all of those (0+ / 0-)

            injustices and horrors too.  But that doesn't mean that I can't say that Sharia is barbarous and that apologies by people on the Left for Sharia are misplaced.

    •  Hopefully the Brits (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes, Anna M, Granny Doc, JeffW
      will make it clear to Sudan government that this woman must be protected.Get her out of there.After she is safe then we can resume our discussion of good vs bad muslims.(Or good vs bad christians.)
  •  This has taught me a lesson (7+ / 0-)

    Next time I go to Sudan, I'm leaving my fuzzy stuffed python -- a.k.a. the Throbbing Phallus of Allah -- at home.

    Touchy, touchy.

    Resist all the urges that make you wanna go out and kill.

    by The Termite on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:38:19 AM PST

  •  Payback for Omdurman? nt (0+ / 0-)

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:40:39 AM PST

  •  Hey- let's count the number of people who WEREN'T (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jennifer poole, Mr X, LynneK

    threatened or killed by Muslims today.

    Naw, pointing out that wackos make up a tiny part of a population is politically correct.  And we can't have that.

  •  But most of the wars thoughout history were (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jre2k8, Granny Doc, LynneK, Pris from LA

    started by a handful of batshit crazy nuts.

    When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.---Sinclair Lewis

    by rmonroe on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:50:11 AM PST

  •  at a deep level (6+ / 0-)
    whether Christian fundies, Mulsim fundies, Soviet fundies, or your just garden-variety nonreligious powermad humans, the essence of a conversation with the world that insists "Everyone Shut UP! while I tell you how things are!" is toxic at best and commonly lethal.

    A move to conversations that extend the conversation is what will change this kind of batshit crazy stuff.  

    Plant corn, get corn.

  •  Fundamentalism is the issue (4+ / 0-)

    Just about any true fundamentalist you find is a few cups of coffee away from a lynchin.'

    Not all Muslims are fundamentalists. I had to train myself to stop bashing all Christians for the "batshit" actions of one faction.

    Also, I think many things are nutso in the Sudan these days.

    How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

    by rhetoricus on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:21:14 AM PST

  •  Any radical of any sect or ideology (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rhetoricus, Granny Doc, Pris from LA

    who oppresses and harms other human beings and denies freedom of thought and association is subject to my scorn and punishment.

    I don't give a shit about the "why."  I only care about the "what."

    So, whether you're Muslim or Christian or Atheist or whatever, if you think YOU have the right to oppress and abuse and deny freedom, I consider it my moral obligation to punish your sorry ass.

    Deal?  

    "I'm voting for John Edwards" - CNN/YouTube GOP Debate Focus Group Republican Voter

    by jre2k8 on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:21:24 AM PST

  •  Small correction. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, mayim, Pris from LA

    It's not enough to note that these are the people who were tolerant in Spain (before they drove the Jews out)

    I think you will find the "they" here were the Catholic monarchs after the reconquest.

    As for the rest? Yeah, I see PC dripping from lots of the comments here. Lots of these people are "bat shit crazy" and Islam at the moment seems to be fostering that more so than the other two of the three religions some author (can't remember which) decades ago described as emerging from the burning hot eyed deserts of the middle east.

    The reason? I suspect it has much more to do with tribal societies being faced with the much larger world and wrapping their own prejudices in the larger religion. That is about what the Catholic monarchs were doing with the Spanish Inquisition too.

    I guess we in Western culture can paraphrase and say something like "There, but for the grace of time, go I."

    As for the "bat shit crazies" as individuals if they begin to get out of their cultural space and demand we change? I have zero tolerance and make zero apologies.

    Expecting pure free enterprise to serve a population is like expecting a garden to feed a family by simply throwing out bags of seed on the ground. (Me)

    by pelagicray on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:29:36 AM PST

  •  Not to be overly pedantic.....factual bit here... (4+ / 0-)

    It was not the Muslims (Moors) who kicked the Jews out of Spain.

    The forced conversions, the Edict of Expulsion, the Inquisition and all that? Christians.

    If I had to choose between being a Jew in Moorish Al-Andalus or in 1450-1500 Spain, I'd choose Al-Andalus without any debate. Still not perfect or easy life, but a whole lot better than the later Christian era in most ways. In fact, with the Edict of Expulsion in 1492, most (70% or more) of the Jews of Spain who left went to Muslim-controlled areas (Morocco, Algeria, and the Ottoman Empire).

  •  shouldn't it be the children who are punished? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Based on the story as I understand it, the teacher, being culturally sensitive, allowed the children to come up with a number of suggested names for the bear, Muhammad being one of them.  Being culturally sensitive, the teacher then allowed the children to vote on which name they liked the best, and it turned out to be the most common name in Islam, Muhammad.  

    Shouldn't the Sudanese punish the children for their slight toward Islam?  After all, it seems to me that the teacher did everything she could to allow the children to work within their own culture in naming the bear.  Perhaps the parents of the children should also be punished for not properly training their children in the ways of their beliefs.

    Based on the news reports I've read, the logic of the Sudanese would result in almost everyone but the teacher being punished for insulting Islam.

    Go figure...

    People do not need religion. They need effective coping mechanisms to deal with existential anxieties. Patricia Guzikowsk

    by a lien on everything on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 11:26:09 PM PST

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