Daily Kos

Immigration: A Brief Conversation

Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:55:50 AM PDT

I'm a role-player.  That is, I play role-playing games... not the new-fangled kind that some people play on computers.  Every weekend or so, I gather with a group of other role-players, and we play role-playing games.  Usually, we play GURPS, but on Saturday, the other GM (he or I will GM on any given week) decided to start up a Spacemaster campaign.  As I was learning about how to build my character in this system, the GM's wife (also a player) spouted something off about Hillary Clinton giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.  It was sort of in context of Oklahoma's new anti-immigration bill going into effect on Thursday.  That's a whole other can of worms, though.

I figured that they were somewhat to the right, because his car has a "Support the Troops" sticker, and sometimes, the wife could be a bit racist.  I kind of let it slide, as I don't want to hijack a gaming session with a bitter argument about race with a woman in her 50's.  I wasn't going to go and defend the New York license decision, either, as I hadn't given it much thought.

What I did do, though, was point out that Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with it.  It was Eliot Spitzer, the governor of New York that had the power (and the guts, quite frankly) to make this decision.  I'm no Hillary fan and will be voting against her in the primary, but I figured that I'd at least just say that Hillary had nothing to do with the decision.  They retorted that she likely had influence.  I said maybe, but I also indicated that there wasn't any reason to believe so.  I did not point out that she spoke out of both sides of her mouth on the issue in the last debate, something that says to me that she really didn't have any say in the issue.

The husband then noted that he couldn't forgive Bill for what he did to his beloved US Navy.  I quickly noted that the Cold War was over, and the conversation mostly ended.  I don't think that any of us wanted to make a fight out of it.  We then continued character creation.  I ended up with a psychic female character with the ability to give herself special physical powers.  I don't often play females, and the group was amused that I would play one at all.

At any rate, I got to thinking about the issue later.  I mean, as far as immigration goes, I'm not particularly concerned.  In high school, I worked with illegal immigrants, and when we could communicate with each other, I enjoyed their company.  Since then, I've had little contact with them, being a scientist working on getting a Ph.D.  I hear the stories on the news.  I see the right going bonkers about them.  I see these things, but I've developed few opinions on the overarching issue.  I have developed the following, though:

  1.  People who choose to immigrate here illegally, especially from south of the border don't do so because they want to.  Rather, they have to leave their families, friends, communities, and culture in order to make enough money to have dignity.  They're not trying to invade or ruin our culture.
  1.  Because of number 1, I think that in the long term, the best way to reduce illegal immigration is to increase the standard of living south of the border, preferably through improving labor and environmental standards.  I think that this can be accomplished in a number of ways.
  1.  I find it offensive to suggest that illegal immigrants are working the jobs that they do, because only they have low enough standards to work them.  I think that they are working them, because they'll do it cheaply, and employers like that.  I'm sure that Americans would be willing to do the work, if they were compensated fairly.  There is dignity in any honest work.
  1.  Attempting to deport all immigrants is impractical and probably would be too much of a shock to our economy.  I'd like to see the economy change such that all working here were receiving wages such that Americans are working those jobs.  In such a case, it wouldn't be a shock, but right now, it would be.
  1.  Simply making undocumented workers legal residents seems somehow wrong, too.  Doing so seems like it would be more of a boon to unscrupulous employers than to anyone else.  Also, it sounds like a paperwork nightmare.
  1.  Building fences seems dumb.  Even the least bright role-playing game player can tell you that he could come up with a solution for his character, superhuman or not.  People are inventive, and primitive security like walls and fences will not stop them.  The Mexicans that I've worked with were industrious and creative, just like any other human on the planet.  Those obstacles will not work.
  1.  Going after the employers of illegal immigrants seems fine, so long as it's done consistently.  As long as any crack-down is humane, I have no problem with such action.
  1.  We cannot fix this problem in the short term.  It is a long term problem and may never go away, even with radical enforcement.  In fact, radical enforcement may make exploitation of illegal immigrants even worse.

And this brings me back to Eliot Spitzer and his driver's license decision.  I kind of understood why he did it, but I couldn't explain at the time of the brief argument without sounding daft.  After some thought, though, I think I have a way of explaining it to someone inclined toward an anti-immigrant mindset.  Say you were driving around in New York and an illegal immigrant hit you with his car.  Now, because the illegal immigrant has a driver's license, he can also have insurance.  Without that license, there was no chance of it.  Your damages are covered by his insurance, and you can thank Eliot Spitzer for it.  I like this setup, because if you're anti-illegal immigrant, the blame for the accident is on the illegal immigrant, so there's a little sympathetic element to it.  At the same time, that may be an appeal to racism, but at least the essential point has been made.

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading.

Tags: immigration, Hillary Clinton, Eliot Spitzer, Role-playing games (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 27 comments

  •  The pros and cons of giving DLs to non-citizens (5+ / 0-)

    has previously been debated in California for precisely the reasosn you mention in the final paragraph. Illegals are driving on our roads and, in some cases, getting in accidents. No DL means they are more likely to flee the scene of a crime... leaving the victim to suffer without recourse.

    It is not an easy choice... not for any governor.

    You make some good points here and dissect the issues calmly... what a pleasant change of pace.

    •  Thanks. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MikeTheLiberal

      Like I said, it's not an issue that I'm usually interested in, as the right seems to think that they own it.  They're definitely more passionate about the issue.

      I guess I just eventually reverse engineered the reasoning for the licenses.  I never heard first-hand why they were written.  That's probably a good slight against the media.

      •  That's the right for you (0+ / 0-)

        Like I said, it's not an issue that I'm usually interested in, as the right seems to think that they own it.

        They act like they own everything; why would this be any different?

        "People should not be afraid of their government; governments should be afraid of their people." --V

        by MikeTheLiberal on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:06:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In this case... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MikeTheLiberal

          In this case, I'm not sure they're wrong.  The left has no consistent rhetoric or developed position.  There are elements of the left that do, but different factions disagree.  There's disagreement on the right, too, but I think that the intrinsic racism has made one side more dominant in electoral politics.

  •  Recommended. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    libertyisliberal, MikeTheLiberal

    Not so much because of any specific point you make (although it's a fine diary).  

    But because you seem to be grappling in a thoughtful way with the issue of illegal immigration.  And exploring the issues.

    That needs to happen a whole lot more if we are ever going to find a solution.

    (And the solution, whatever it is, isn't going to be entirely satisfactory to everybody, either.)

    •  That and... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rick, SadTexan, bleeding blue

      ...liberals (like myself) don't seem to have one unifying stance on illegal immigration.  The labor sympathizer in me realizes the problem of reducing wages for Americans, but the civil rights sympathizer realizes the plight of the immigrants in the first place.  I think that the two perspectives can be wed, but so far, I don't think that they have been brought together within the Democratic Party.  (One way to bring them together is for more outreach of American labor unions into Mexico and other Latin American countries.  I think that would help everyone, especially if we can make the right to organize part of our conditions for a free trade agreement.)

      •  This comment just (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        nanoboy

        proves my point.

        You're looking at the issues and struggling with them.  Again, that needs to happen more.

        Neither side has a monopoly on truth here.

        My sympathy tends to be with the immigrants, because I am so repulsed by the xenophobia and racism of the Tancredo crowd.

        But I understand the unhappiness of low-skilled American workers who feel that they are being undermined.  And I sympathize with school and health systems with high concentrations of illegal immigrants who are feeling overwhelmed.

        But what decent person could really begrudge an illegal immigrant the opportunity to make a better life for himself and his family?

        On the other hand, a couple of Border Patrol agents of my acquaintance and who I believe to be decent, moral people, justify their work by saying that the percentage of people coming across the border for nefarious reasons (beyond just working illegally) is far higher than most people realize.

        Is this comment a bit rambling and self-contradictory?  I'm sure it is.  That's because I, like you, am trying to understand the issue without becoming a demagogue.

  •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

    I'm a role-player.  That is, I play role-playing games... As I was learning about how to build my character in this system, the GM's wife (also a player) spouted something off about Hillary Clinton giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.  It was sort of in context of Oklahoma's new anti-immigration bill going into effect on Thursday.  That's a whole other can of worms, though.

    I figured that they were somewhat to the right, because his car has a "Support the Troops" sticker, and sometimes, the wife could be a bit racist.

    And you RPG with these folks?

    What I did do, though, was point out that Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with it.  It was Eliot Spitzer, the governor of New York that had the power (and the guts, quite frankly) to make this decision.  I'm no Hillary fan and will be voting against her in the primary, but I figured that I'd at least just say that Hillary had nothing to do with the decision.  They retorted that she likely had influence.

    IOW, they believe what they want to believe (or were told to believe by the talking heads).

    My advice: a level 20 fireball.  ;)

    "People should not be afraid of their government; governments should be afraid of their people." --V

    by MikeTheLiberal on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:05:26 AM PDT

    •  It's Oklahoma. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      libertyisliberal, MikeTheLiberal

      First, there aren't many Okies who role-play, especially Okies who don't play D20 games, like DnD.  Second, they're fun to role-play with.  Honestly, despite their imperfections, they're basically good people.  They've both had real difficulties in their lives but have managed to mostly overcome them.  It's no excuse for their occasional bigotry, but in the context of the people I know in Oklahoma, I can't hate them for it.  Besides, age-wise and sex-wise, this is an incredibly diverse group.  We have the 40-something year-old husband and his 50-something year-old wife.  I'm 28.  There's a college student of 21 years (I think.)  Then there's another 40-year-old guy who comes with his 15 year-old daughter.  There's this blue-collar feel to the group, which kind of makes me the academic know-it-all, but they seem okay with it, and I'm okay with it.

  •  My parents are Democrats (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SadTexan, libertyisliberal

    And yet, they think like Tancredo on the issue of illegal immigration. I already tried to explain to them that until we go after the companies that hire the illegals and not the illegals themselves, the problem will continue to persist.

    Conservatives are close-minded, shallow, superficial people that live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white and there are NO shades of gray.

    by Brad007 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:11:02 AM PDT

    •  Question. (0+ / 0-)

      Don't reveal any personal details, but what part of the country do your parents live in?  Is it an area where there has traditionally been immigration?  Is it an area where there isn't immigration and they're just getting stirred up from what they hear from the news?  Or is it an area where there's a lot of immigration, but hadn't been in the past?

      My experience has been that people who actually live in areas where immigration has been going on forever are more rational on the issue.  (That's not to say at all that they are all pro-immigrant: just that they stay calmer about things.)

      •  They're just being stirred up (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SadTexan

        The illegal immigration problem is not bad at all where my parents live, in New England that is.

        Conservatives are close-minded, shallow, superficial people that live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white and there are NO shades of gray.

        by Brad007 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 03:57:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Your friends sound great /*sarcasm*/ (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bleeding blue, libertyisliberal

    I think that the plan to provide Driver's Licenses to undocumented workers is really just another plan to exploit workers.  

    While I agree with all of the viewpoints regarding immigrants' rights as human beings and the need for ID when in an accident or getting insurance, I believe that this is just a way for companies to start hiring undocumented workers as taxi drivers, truck drivers, package and takeout deliverers, etc., for a much lower wage than American citizens could afford to live on.

    Honestly, it reminds me of NAFTA and my own naivete that it was a way to include Mexico in a trade agreement, and not, as it really was, an underhanded way to exploit undocumented and foreign workers at the expense of American workers.

    •  I can see that. (0+ / 0-)

      First off, despite their imperfections, I genuinely do like my fellow role-players.  They're not the sort that I typically associate myself with, but I think that we all need to branch out in who we know on occasion.

      I can see your point on the ID cards.  I hadn't thought of it in that way.  Still, it seems to me that governors who take the approach of giving them to illegal immigrants are probably just trying to cope.  That others would take advantage of the situation is to be expected.  I think that the next step is to see how Spitzer reacts to the inevitable exploitation.

      •  Trying to cope... (0+ / 0-)

        I'm sure your friends have good qualities...

        Anyway, my first thought about the DL issue was that it was racist or xenophobic to be against it.  But, the more I thought about it, the more I started to think about how it could be used in a negative way.  If I'm not mistaken, it's Michael Chertoff's baby, and that can't be a good thing.  My other fear, besides the worker's exploitation, is that it's a first step towards some fascist "USA ID" card that reminds me of an SS officer asking me for mein papers!  Scary.

        I think that Spitzer and other good Dems need to take a long hard look before they sign this into law, not after.  By then, it will be too late.  I don't think it's good for him politically, as it is, and if it results in lost American jobs, NY will go back to being Republican. **shudder**

        •  The original ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... drivers' license proposal was not something that would lead to the "USA ID" card (which I don't like at all).  Unfortunately, there was so much pressure from the RW groups against Spitzer's plans that he "compromised" with some kind of three-tier system which is really crappy and solves nothing.

          Problem is the anti-migrant groups have been shaping the national discussion on this issue for far too long.  We need a progressive voice to counter their bad ideas.

          Duke1676 here at Daily Kos has done some of the best writing I've seen on this issue from a Progressive viewpoint.  He also has his own blog, migra matters.

          There's a lot of meme-killing to do on this issue.

  •  thanks for a sane look (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nanoboy

    very good and thoughtful diary.

    the probelm is that all the anti-immigration leaders, from Dobbs to Tancredo to the Minutemen, KNOW that their "solutions" won't work, that things like Driver's Liscenses will make people safer, etc, but they don't care.

    they know hate and demagogery work to enflame their voters, so they don't care whether the situation they claim to be addressing is actually made worse by their rhetoric and actions. they are bigots, or people willing to use to bigotry to make themselves famous (like Dobbs) or get votes from racists. no arguement will ever sway them, they can only be fought with all our will.

    unfortunately, i don't see nearly enough Democrats standing up to fight them (see Hillary's inability to stand up for this worthwhile idea as just one example). like on so many other issues, the Dems have decided that being honest and progessive is politically unpopular, so they try to hide. that won't work.

    we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

    by catchaz on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:27:36 AM PDT

  •  Analogy: Private Property Boundary Law (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SadTexan

    Here's why it is proper to grant the existing population legal alien status.

    The house I just sold had a legal easement on one side where our neighbor is allowed to keep part of an outbuilding and garden walkway.

    True, he was trespassing when he built them there, but the previous owner did not check the boundary and defend his property rights, for some 20 years.

    Under the law, when you are negligent about defending your border and allow such an offense to continue in plain sight for years, you lose some of your legal rights over the offense. I believe there is a similar principle for defending your copyrights and patents as well.

    For immigration, it's a fact that We the United States neglected our border for years, and we neglected employer enforcement as well, allowing this population to become illegally established here.

    My argument is that, OK, we now want to defend our border, and we can begin doing that. But we have surrendered some of our right to punish the population that came here while we were not minding our border properly.

    We're already paying the costs of having this population here; they're already in the job market; but being illegal, they're in the underground economy, costing our people jobs and opportunity by working underpaid.

    The minute we legalize these aliens, we can begin employer enforcement, because then everyone caught will be new incomers. And the aliens can demand full wages and rights of employers, ending the downward pressure on citizen wages.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:33:00 AM PDT

    •  How? (0+ / 0-)

      The minute we legalize these aliens, we can begin employer enforcement

      In other words, the government cannot 'begin employer enforcement' with the law written the way it is currently.

      I am curious as to how you would suggest changing the law such that employer enforcement can actually occur.

      As you know I have considered this issue a great deal, the only way I can envision real employer enforcement is thru a National ID card.

      I think that Crystal Patterson's diary is indicative of what a lot of Democrats believe i.e. that employer enforcement is feasible within the confines of the current law, or that with a few marginal changes to the current law, employer enforcement could be effective.

      Niether of which is in fact true.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:53:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good argument, but there's a practical problem. (0+ / 0-)

    OK, we now want to defend our border, and we can begin doing that.

    I think that's just about physically impossible.  Heavier patrolling of the border makes immigrants seek out more remote (and more dangerous) crossing points.  

    I suppose a wall from California to the tip of Texas is a possibility, but I really hate to see us go there.  And, of course, where there's a wall N feet hign, there's a ladder N+1 feet high.

    Enforcement through employers is a good plan.  But even that's problematic.  How many employers would stop hiring anybody who looks Latino or has an accent?  And how many yuppies would just pay their maids cash?

    I guess the best general solution is to somehow get Mexico's living standards high enough to reduce the need for immigration.  How to do that?  I have no idea.

    (Although BushCo seems to be hard at work solving the problem by reducing living standards in the country.)

    I'm being rather contrarian in my posts to this (excellent) diary.  

    It's because I want to point out just how very tough this issue is.

    •  Sorry, (0+ / 0-)

      this was meant as a reply to Gooserock's comment above.

    •  It goes deeper than this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SadTexan

      How many employers would stop hiring anybody who looks Latino or has an accent?

      The law states that employers cannot 'knowingly' hire illegal immigrants, then mandates a Social Security Card as an acceptable form of identification, a document which has nothing on it which identifies the owner of the document.

      So in essence the government has made the employer an agent of ICE, and then stated "you cannot turn down a document even if it looks fraudulent under pain of an EEOC or ACLU law suit".

      I guess the best general solution is to somehow get Mexico's living standards high enough to reduce the need for immigration.  How to do that?  I have no idea.

      Stop swamping Mexico with subsidized US agriculture would be a start.

      I'm being rather contrarian in my posts  

      Welcome to my world.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 12:00:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Spitzer's right,Feds Abdicated Responsibility (0+ / 0-)

    Interestng diary. From an intellectual standpoint, I am sympathetic to Clinton here. When Hillary Clinton said her goal would be to pass comprehensive immigration reform that would make this kind of law unnecessary, I understood what she meant although I realized that this wold never be a winning political soundbite for her. That is not to say that her "goal" would translate to a Congress that would FINALLY work together to pass the kind of immigration reform that she's (and we've) hoped for.

    A 2000 report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found that 20% of fatal accidents have involved at least one driver who's lacked a valid drivers' license.

    Federal immigration officials are typically hands-off when it comes to an undocumented person being charged with driving without a license.

    Rather than second-guess Eliot Spitzer, who is my state's governor, I fully support what he's doing because he refuses to be willfully blind like so many of our federal leaders to the disaster that the conseqiences of unenforced immgration laws have become.

    At some point, someone's got to take responsible action. Spitzer basically is saying "the buck stops here." He's working with the real-life (indesirable) situation he sees he has been left to work with....for the safety and economic protection of those who reside in the state he swore to govern responsibly.

    The Federal government has abdicated its responsibility to the people of this country by failing, time and rime again, to enforce immigration rules on the books and agreeing upon necessary immigration reform. For the sake of public safety, New York state must rule firmly to see that the law is consistently applied by state license administrators. Laws should be crystal-clear, there must be consistent application by the NY state courts, and there must be methods of enforcement that work to identify offenders and keep them from getting behind the wheel...even if it means deporting illegal immigrants if they don't play by the rules of the state.

    In the meantime, your insurance rates in New York won't go sky high because of so many uninsured motorists and the amount of fatal accident rates should go down because people were required to prove they could drive safely before getting behind the wheel of an automobile (that will hopefully be insured).

    I, too, see this law as imperfect...but someone has to start taking responsibiity SOMEWHERE while partisan federal leaders spew to hear themselves spew all the cheap vote-attracting rhetoric that never brings about a solution.  

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