Daily Kos

Inevitability? Heh. Let's talk non-electability.

Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 07:41:14 AM PDT

Hillary Clinton's campaign has made a great deal of headway in the run up to the primaries with their 'inevitability' meme.

And for months, the polls seemed to swing her way, at least with a broadly uninformed and largely disinteresed public.

But come late October, early November as folks start absorbing the candidate, moving beyond simple name recognition to actual positions and principles, those polls are tightening, and not in a way that's necessarily good for the Clinton camp.

In point of fact, they pretty much make a joke of the whole notion of 'inevitability' and cast a glaring light on the question that I've always had:

Is Hillary Clinton even electable in the General?

My answer has always been a 'no', or more generously, 'barely'. Now we've got some data that hints at why.

Here's Isaac Chotiner quoting Time:

While recent national polls show Clinton matching up well against every potential Republican competitor, the picture looks very different in Republican and swing states. Says a purple-state Congressman who is nervous about holding onto his seat if Clinton is the nominee: "She certainly will get Republicans riled up. They will not only go out and vote against her--they'll stop off at their neighbors' house along the way and drag them to the polls."

A late-October Quinnipiac University survey underscored this point. Nationally, it showed Clinton being edged out by former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, 45% to 43%, within the margin of error. In red states, however, she ran behind him, 49% to 40%, and she trailed, 47% to 41%, in the purple ones. By comparison, Illinois Senator Barack Obama beat Giuliani by a single percentage point (43% to 42%) nationally but held that same margin in the purple states and came within 6 points (45% to 39%) in the red ones.

Now all polls at this point are fluid, so I don't want to over emphasize this, and many Clinton campaigners will argue the Quinnipac poll is simply an outlier, but I think it's actually an important indicator of where Clinton naturally trends. I'm sure her campaign is hoping the East Coasters will be energized and the Repugs will be chastened and down beat. Many of the Clintonites are convinced that Hillary Clinton will be better both at taking punches from the right and at punching back. Certainly, they're impressed (as, actually, am I) with the quality of the campaign she's run thus far. But what they miss --and what's going to be very difficult to decipher from Washington-- is the effect the candidate herself will have on the electorate. My contention has always been that the likely result is this: she'll depress Coastal votes (certainly among the progressives) and energize the Republican base in the red states. The data above merely outlines the trends that will become dramatically starker should she get the primary nod.

One thing for sure, it ought to put a nail in the 'inevitable meme'--Clinton's not inevitable. Quite frankly, as many here know, I think she's the most unelectable candidate we have this season. As opinions begin to form around the major candidates, watch for how poorly Clinton does in the red states compared to a Republican front runner. Watch how that begins to trend into the Purple states. Those are the numbers that might well spell her defeat in the general, and, potentially, a Democratic defeat should we make the mistake of allowing her to win the primary.

Tags: Clinton, Primary, Inevitability (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 69 comments

  •  Tips (11+ / 0-)

    You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

    by DelicateMonster on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 07:39:14 AM PDT

  •  Again and again the polls show Obama losing (6+ / 0-)

    Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and usually Conneticut as well). The latest ones have him within the margin of error in California and New York. Despite his promise to win in Mississippi and other deep red states, Giuliani still beats him there by 20 + points. How is Obama the most electable if he can't win swing states, blue leaning swing states, or even a couple of blue states?

    The polls have Clinton winning in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and New Jersey. That's a big difference.

    Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

    by tigercourse on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 07:43:41 AM PDT

  •  Prepare (5+ / 0-)

    for the inevitable chorus of "you're wrong, you sexist swiftboating jerk" or something to that effect.

    I've said this before: the only number that counts with regard to Hillary are her unfavorables. They're already at 45% or so, and with $200 million in ad spend on one hatchet job after another, they will go higher.

    For Hsure.

    "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

    by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 07:46:41 AM PDT

    •  i disagree (9+ / 0-)

      i think her negatives are as high as they'll ever go. there's nothing the repugs can throw at her that hasn't already been thrown, over and over and over. that she's doing well in the debates also suggests that she may be capable of changing some of those negatives to positives.

      the unelectable argument is one of the worst. all our candidates can win.

      •  I disagree with you. (4+ / 0-)

        All the Rs need to do, strategically, is activate the latent or overt anti-Clinton sentiment with some targeted messaging. To do that, all they need to do is tie in to the earlier concerns people had about the Clintons - "sleazy" fundraising, stone-walling on records, etc. - and presto, 45% becomes 51%, and the election's over. All they need to do is shift a few baseline points, because dislike of her is already so strong.

        I can see scenarios where she can pull off a win, especially if the Rs continue their wholesale collapse, but I see Hillary creating a uniquely difficult messaging environment for us. We saw this in 2004, which I'm convinced Bush won not because people voted for him, but against Kerry.

        "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

        by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:06:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  again, i disagree (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Trix, Superribbie, Gabriele Droz, cpresley

          the anti-clinton vote is already locked in. i will admit to being surprised by the polls that show her doing so well against rudy and the other repugs, but they are what they are- and it's a consistent pattern. i also think rudy's positives are hyperinflated by the media fluffing, so he has nowhere to go but down. she can beat him, and badly.

          •  Exactly right (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            coigue, Turkana, cpresley

            She has universal name rec and a lot of both pro- and ant- votes locked in.  It would almost be like running an incumbent-type campaign.

            Incidentally, how come it's taken as basically a given that Bill Clinton would have trounced Bush in 2004 and would walk away with it in 2008, but Hillary Clinton is supposedly "unelectable" because "people hate the Clintons"?

            The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51

            by Superribbie on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:24:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I heard Bill on the radio (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DelicateMonster

              the other night, talking about including everyone in community works globally. The man explains liberal values on this issue better than anyone I've ever heard, He argued that it was impossible to fight everyone who was against us, but that when we build healthy gcommunities globally where everyone helped make the community work, then people are less likely to terrorize their own people or others because they have too much to lose-too much to risk.

              He is truely awesome.

              Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

              by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:38:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Because Bill and Hillary are (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              MBNYC

              far from synonymous--though the Hillary campaign probably wishes that weren't so...

              Billy is articulate and affable--wordy to a fault...

              HRC is not especially affable, her charm--if we can call it that-- is rather subtle-- and although she's wordy she rarely hammers a message with the same precision and nuance that Bill does...HRC comes off as evasive, Bill expansive...subtle, perhaps, but it's all the difference in the world when it comes to politics.

              Half the time, Bill can't lose even though he maybe should because people just like him at a personal level-he exudes warmth.

              Hillary, sorry to say, not so much. She has to work against her own natural personality, Bill has his personality naturally working for him.

              All the difference in the world.

              You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

              by DelicateMonster on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:46:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Again... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DelicateMonster

            ...there is no rational reason whatsoever to make a prediction that she's topped out in terms of negatives.  I can't think of a single precedent for that.

            One thing I see that's persistent in polls is that she underperforms Kerry and the generic Democrat, Case in point, the Oct. 31st Quinnipiac poll.

            Former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, the Republican front-runner, leads New York Sen. Hillary Clinton by a razor-thin 45 - 43 percent, but voters say 58 - 37 percent that President George W. Bush's low approval ratings will make it difficult for any Republican to be elected President, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

            Giuliani's lead reverses a 46 - 43 percent Sen. Clinton lead in an August 15 poll by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University, but Giuliani was up 49 - 40 percent May 3.

            Illinois Sen. Barack Obama gets 43 percent to Giuliani's 42 percent. And Arizona Sen. John McCain ties Clinton 44 - 44 percent, wiping out a 47 - 41 percent Clinton lead August 15.

            Clinton also has seen her favorability among American voters drop from 48 - 43 percent August 15 to 46 - 46 percent today.

            So there's definitely room for movement in her unfavorables, because that's precisely what we're seeing.

            "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

            by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:25:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  won? (0+ / 0-)

          I never thought bush won, and if this next election is close, they will adjust it again (think Ohio). We got the house and senate back because the margins were not as amenable to fixing. this election needs to be a blow out so it can't easily be adjusted

    •  so far (0+ / 0-)

      only substance.

      care to issue an apology for your defensive jab?

      Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

      by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:12:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I beg your pardon? (0+ / 0-)

        I don't intend to apologize for accuracy, my friend.

        "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

        by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:28:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  how about for inaccuracy? (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Trix, Gabriele Droz, cpresley

          No one in this diary has been so nasty as you suggest...other than your own preemptive  strike that now seems mean spirited and unnecesary. (I have not been here for over two weeks, mind you...but it looks to me like you are bringing a fight from "yesterday's diary" into a pretty clean commenting diary. Do you think that might be how fights get perpetuated? Is it useful to do so?

          Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

          by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:33:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DelicateMonster

            More likely, my initial comment dissuaded the usual suspects from going down that route. If you haven't been here for two weeks, maybe you've missed some sterling examples of precisely that. It's practically a punch line these days.

            As it is, here we have a solid, data-based diary, and much, not all, of the response is squawking about how the data presented is meaningless.

            "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

            by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:54:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  so your experience is that incivility breeds (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Trix

              civility?

              Is that how you can take credit for the good tone of this diary?

              That is certainly not my experience.

              Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

              by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:06:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you regard my comment (0+ / 0-)

                as an example of lack of civility, really, I suggest you grow a thicker skin. In especially as this series of soft ad hominems actually makes my point.

                "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

                by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:09:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ironic comment. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Trix

                  Firstly because my comments to youwould not exist if your initial one did not.

                  Second because you ask me to have a thicker skin, while calling my comments ad hominems (which they aren't- look it up)

                  You know I know how nasty it gets around here. I have no doubt it was nasty yesterday. I think it is unproductive to bring yesterday's fight into today's diary.That isn't an ad hominem attack of any kind. It's merely my opinion. And it looks like you were looking for a fight. Now you are saying that your behavior kept a fight from happening. That does not jibe with my personal liberal view of how the world works.

                  Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

                  by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:18:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

                    you're assuming I'm only talking about yesterday. I'm not.

                    Not that this has anything to do with the diary, of course, which I suppose is the objective of it all.

                    "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

                    by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:39:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yesterday was in quotes. (0+ / 0-)

                      It was meant as a metaphor for any other diary.

                      Don't assume my intentions, they are as I have stated nothing more. Your cynicism perhaps is an indication that you should step back. It did me a world of good. (Now I am taking a break from my real life to post on dkos)

                      P.S. I have an action diary up: apparently congress took tax breaks for renewable energy out of the energy bill.Please check it out and call your reps!

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

                      by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:48:15 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Sadly, The DNC (0+ / 0-)

    will not pay any attention to any of this information, nor will they listen to "us".  They will do what they want to do, damn the consequences.

  •  Clinton does best against GOP in Tennessee... (6+ / 0-)

    according to a new poll out today. Much better than Obama.

    But feel free to disregard this info if it conflicts with what you know in your gut.

  •  Why do I think that you will soon (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster, MBNYC

    have a bad case of Hillarrhoids? :-)

  •  Here we go again (4+ / 0-)

    Not only is Hillary electable, she is the most electable of all the Democrats, and she will bring along a lot of down ticket candidates with her.  People are ready for change, they will vote for Hillary Clinton.  Plus, she will run a masterful campaign.  Look at what people said when she ran for senate in New York? All the same things that are being said about her now, except they also called her a carpetbagger. By the time that race was over, Lazio, an incumbent NY congressman, didn't know what hit him.  And in this last race, Pirro was toast before they took her out of the bread basket, and no one even remembers the name of the guy who they finally got to run against her.  This unelectable stuff is nonsense!

    •  My read, as you might imagine (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MBNYC, philimus, cybrestrike

      is slightly different. I think--if she's lucky-- she'll only depress the down ticket and NOT lose the general.

      The last thing people would do if they wanted change is vote for Hillary Clinton. She's been in the national spotlight for nearly 20 years? How the hell is that change?

      You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

      by DelicateMonster on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:04:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Come On Lazio and Pirro (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DelicateMonster, MBNYC

      Were pathetic candidates - political cannon fodder put up by the rethugs because they knew they didn't stand a chance in the NY Senate race.  I hardly think those two races are a reflection of either what the general electorate will do, or what the rethugs will throw up against HRC in the presidential race.

    •  NY is not a red or purple state (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      It's deep blue.

      What happens in the broad swath of Jesusland stretching from the Carolina's to Nevada to the Gulf of Mexico? Especially downticket.

      I'll use my in-laws as an example: they hate Bill, and they really, really, really hate Hillary. They don't particularly like Bush and the Repugs these days, either, and might even stay home if someone other than Hillary was nominated...

      "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." MLK, from jail in Birmingham, AL.

      by bewert on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:15:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Upstate New York is not deep blue. And the (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, cpresley

        state was much redder in 2000 then it is now.

        But all of that aside, the polls show her doing better then the other candidates. In national polls, in state polls she's outperforming Obama and Edwards.

        Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

        by tigercourse on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:20:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bill Cinton has high popularity (0+ / 0-)

        Bill Clinton is very popular across the country, and because of that, if Hillary is the nominee, we have an excellent chance at taking Arkansas as well as the southwest.  

        Governor Strickland of Ohio would not have endorsed Hillary today if he thought she was going to hurt down ticket. Not in Ohio.

    •  You forgot one (0+ / 0-)

      before the Lazio candidacy, a certain megalomaniacal NYC mayor got hit so hard he dropped out.

      The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51

      by Superribbie on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:29:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He got hit hard (0+ / 0-)

        by cancer. I realize this is a convenient myth, but there's no evidence whatsoever that Rudolini dropped out because he was worried about his chances.

        "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

        by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:48:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it is speculation, but speculation based on (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Gabriele Droz

          a decline in the polls.  From wiki:

          An early, January 1999 poll showed Giuliani trailing Clinton by 10 points.[26] By January 2000, Giuliani had reversed the situation, pulling 9 points ahead after taking advantage of Clinton's abovementioned campaign stumbles.[26] Nevertheless, the Giuliani campaign was showing some structural weaknesses. So closely identified with New York City, he had somewhat limited appeal to naturally Republican voters in Upstate New York.[27] The Farmersville Garbage Scandal was indicative of his reduced support upstate.[28][27]

          ...

          The New York Police Department's fatal shooting of Patrick Dorismond on March 15, 2000 inflamed Giuliani's already strained relations with the city's minority communities,[25] and Clinton seized on it as a major campaign issue.[25] By April, reports showed Clinton gaining upstate and generally outworking Giuliani, who stated that his duties as mayor prevented him from campaigning more.[32].

          By May 2000, Clinton was 8 to 10 points ahead of Giuliani in the polls.

          ...

          On May 19, 2000, before the Republican primary which he was expected to win, Giuliani withdrew his candidacy, with the stated (and primary) reason that he had been diagnosed as having prostate cancer and needed treatment. Additional contributing factors may have been the fallout from his publicized affair with Judith Nathan and his messy marriage, separation, and soon-to-come divorce from his wife Donna Hanover,[34] and his struggles in the polls.

          The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51

          by Superribbie on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:19:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're right. (0+ / 0-)

            It is speculation that he withdrew for reasons other than those stated by him before a primary he was going to win and after having led Clinton by ten points rather recently.

            But I've seen this particular talking point before, so I'm sure it'll turn up again.

            "There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

            by MBNYC on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 09:50:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  the "unelectable" meme (5+ / 0-)

    is a lot older--and staler--than the inevitability meme.

    I appreciate the info about the Quinnipiac poll, and it surely ought to worry Clinton and her supporters. But the idea that a poll shows her behind isn't the same thing as her being unelectable.

    By that logic, Obama must be "unelectable" in the Dem primaries, since he's so far behind.

  •  finally, somebody gets it!! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DelicateMonster, MBNYC

    Look, we shouldn't give any quarter to Condi because she's Black and female.  People can be horrific no matter their race or gender.  Equally Hillary.
    "Forget" she's female.  She's a disaster for the Democratic Party because NON political people HATE her.  Therefore, as I've been saying, she is selfish beyond belief in doing this to the Party.

  •  I'm really tired (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Superribbie, Gabriele Droz, aggieric

    of hearing about how unelectable HRC is. I just don't believe it. She's been bashed and bashed for 16 years, and her unfavorables are still below 50%? My money is on them going down, not up, when the general election comes around.

    And let's not forget: some of those unfavorables come from people in the democratic party, many of who would likely still hold their noses and vote for her come election day.

    Disclaimer: she's probably my second choice (was my third before McClurkinGate).

    "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

    by dedmonds on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:02:29 AM PDT

    •  Why would you put money on the unfavorables going (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      down?

      The Republicans have been playing rope a dope with her throughout the primary season--for some fairly obvious reasons...

      Once she get's the primary nod, they'll wipe up the floor with her.

      She's never stood for national election, dude--she won ultra blue New York, with the backing of Wall Street and Rupert Murdoch's blessing.

      That's an absolute walk in the park compared to what's going to happen come the general if she wins the primary.

      You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

      by DelicateMonster on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:07:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She won red upstate New York. And she didn't use (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, dedmonds, cpresley

        Wall Street or Murdoch to do it.

        Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

        by tigercourse on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:10:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What could they possibly say (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, cpresley

        that hasn't been said about her in the past 15 years? What could they possibly add now?

        She's got to be one of the best known political figures in America. She's been talked about endlessly since 1992. You really think there's new shit people haven't heard before?

        "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

        by dedmonds on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:11:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not new stuff that's going to matter (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lanikai, MBNYC

          it's all the old stuff reiterated and amplified--and then there's the idea that purple state independents or red state independents are all going to look past that to cast their vote for someone who they probably already deeply suspect?

          Nonsense, she's at record high disapproval numbers, she only needs a point or two higher and she's done for the general. Stick a fork in her.

          As to her 'red upstate New York win' how much of that win is due thanks to federal grants and constituent service, tools she cannot rely on in a presidential campaign? Her reelection last year, when she won 61 percent of the Upstate vote, came against a weak candidate. And the region is by some measures more moderate than parts of key swing states such as Ohio and Florida -- Republicans barely outnumber Democrats (who are clustered in Upstate's cities), and there are few religious conservatives--and even fewer rabid rightwingers--most tend toward the moneyed, rational red, not the deeply wingnut variety (though I'm sure you could find examples of either if you hunted hard enough).

          You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

          by DelicateMonster on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:37:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Primary poll some cred general not much even .. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Gabriele Droz, cpresley

    though just about all show her beating everyone. The primaries are two months away so polling there is somewhat credible general rather silly in reality and I say that although she leads. In most. This Obama fan has not idea about the obstacles to his electability. Numerous polls show him gettng wiped out in several blue and purple states and across the south. They are at least as valid as some of the hypothisising going on here.      

  •  I find it increasingly tiresome (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hprof, cpresley

    that Obama and Edwards supporters always argue that it's too far out - polls are meaningless.  But then promote a poll that favors their candidate.

    I also find the anecdotal evidence:

    Says a purple-state Congressman who is nervous about holding onto his seat if Clinton is the nominee: "She certainly will get Republicans riled up. They will not only go out and vote against her--they'll stop off at their neighbors' house along the way and drag them to the polls."

    just that - anecdotal.  Was it just last week that Kos reported talking to a dem office holder in a red state, who said (I paraphrase) "I'm not so sure she'd have a negative impact". ?

  •  The logic of this fails me. (4+ / 0-)

    If she is unelectable, what does that say about the other candidates that are trailing her by so much and so consistently.

    In other words...you'd better be wrong.

    Besides....we can hate Rudy as much as they hate Hil.

    Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

    by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:17:31 AM PDT

  •  They can't win on substance (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cpresley

    So they are trying to win on process. I don't fault  Edwards and Obama for trying another strategy; they are running because they are very ambitious, and want to be president (like all the rest of the candidates on either side of the party divide).  Hillary's supporters just have to keep pointing out that they are wrong!

  •  All indicators about electability aside ... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lanikai, coigue, DelicateMonster, MBNYC

    ... which, after all, can't really be known with certainty anyway (as we learned with Kerry), I think the bigger question is what kind of president would Hillary be if she does win the general election next year?

    From what I've seen of her so far, Clinton promises to run a very cautious, centrist campaign that reflects her corporate background and would probably govern to advance the causes of Big Business over those of the American people. I believe we can do better.

    That said, if Hillary does get the nomination, I plan to vote for her simply because even the worst Democrat we could have would still be light years above the best Rethuglican. But I really hope we choose our candidate more wisely. IMHO, the country is ready for more of a change than just switching back and forth from Bush to Clinton to Bush to Clinton again.

    "... But you know that I predicted it,
    I knew he had to fall.
    How did it happen?
    I hope his suffering was small.
    Tell me every detail for I've got to know it all.
    And do you have a picture of the pain?" - Phil Ochs, "Crucifixion," 1967

  •  Electability is relative (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Gabriele Droz

    how "electible" is Rudy Giuliani?

    Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

    by coigue on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:42:59 AM PDT

  •  sorry, but i continue to reject the electibility (0+ / 0-)

    meme.

    if GWB was electible, anybody is electible. period.

    I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

    by UntimelyRippd on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 10:43:40 AM PDT

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