Parenting Other People's Children

While most of my diaries have been pure politics, I received such great ideas from this community when I was deciding on a car purchase last year (see "What Would Jesus Take a Loan Out On?"), that I'd like to reach out again on a prickley moral and logistical situation.

I'm a  good parent.  Not a great one but a very decent one.  I have good instincts and I also am up on the best findings and approaches....I see what works for others....I keep on top of research and trends...I try new things, try to respect my children....my kids are turning out okay. (they're 8 and 11 right now).

My brother - who I dearly love - is not doing an okay job. I wish I could think of a less blunt way to word that.  He's very educated and well-read. My sister-in-law is even better educated (a master's from Georgetown....speaks three languages....well-traveled) but they make, well, dreadful decisions.  Take their children's diet.  It appears to consist primariy of cheetos, candy, coca-cola and fast food (their children are 5 and 3).  I was visiting them yesterday (we live in different cities), and my sweet niece refused to eat anything for breakfast at the restaurant we were visiting....that's fine....sometimes kids don't want to eat...but then my brother brought her a large candy bar (at 11 a.m.) as we were leaving the restaurant and she had that for breakfast.   When she's thirsty, they offer her water but she says that she wants coke....so they give her a glass.

Don't get me started on medications.  The slightest cold brings out the benadryl....they changed pediatricians because their doc was against antibiotics for routine things (like ear infections) and they really wanted to give them so they found a more willing doctor (this mimics their own behavior....my sister-in-law takes medications at the first sign....my brother drinks Red Bulls all day).

I'm really flummoxed about this...I've tried sideways conversations with them but they have a sense of complete helplessness about the whole thing....as if somehow they can't tell the kids what to do.  Their discipline is the same way....completely over the top on little things (sending niece to a time-out because she wouldn't wear tights with her dress) and ignoring crazy behavior (running around church while other children were quiet).

And what really set this off (and triggered this diary) is that they announced yesterday that they have 3rd baby on the way! (even though they feel completely overwhelmed by the first two....have to bring their nanny with them even for family restaurant outings).

What do i do here?  My husband's advice: Forget about it. You can't change them.

but it's incredibly difficult to see this train wreck....and a week of Christmas visits looms ahead.

•  You can't

  Your husband is right.  

  The most you can do is send them articles on proper nutrition and medication, and pray that the nanny has some sense.

  by Miss Blue on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:16:47 AM PDT

  •  Miss Blue, so True

    I'm actually pinning my hopes on the various nannys.  Unfortunately, the nannies are a series of earnest young women from south america (so the kids will learn different languages) and I've barely mastered English (my only language :) and can't communicate with them.   As another poster said though, maybe the nannys are part of the problem...in that they can ignore some of these issues because they can shield themselves with their money.

    sigh.

    by Southern Hope on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:34:17 AM PDT

  •  It seems that the 'nanny' has allowed them to

    avoid the consequences of their 'parenting' skills.

    Caffeine and sugar and benadryl and being ignored. Kids don't even need "Baby Einstein" to figure that program out. Hearts.

    But you are not alone, so if misery loves company...

    by deMemedeMedia on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:52:47 AM PDT

  •  But with your house, you can

    Overall, Miss Blue is totally correct -- these kids are someone else's responsibility. (I have the sameproblem with my two sisters and their kids...)

    However, in your house, you can implement your rules for everything -- behavior, food, etc. The downside is your sister may stop coming by, as you won't indulge her kids as she believes they should be indulged. Then the more serious issue arises -- lack of respect for you.

    House rules works for us -- for our nieces/nephews as well as my daughter's high school friends.

    by dcrolg on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:24:00 AM PDT

•  Give gifts...

  ...Brazleton's 2-volume set of Touchpoints: Volume 1 - 1 to 3, Volume 3 - 6.

  Give your nieces a gift of having them over without their parents for visits...play dates? an annual special birthday visit?

  Give everyone a gift and relentlessly, visibly, publicly model good behavior.

  Give yourself a gift - you can't change your bro/sil so be thankful for your access and ability to model good behavior and understand the limits in the relationships.  

  by kck on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:28:04 AM PDT

•  We must be related

  My Sister/brother-in-law are the same way, sadly I am with your husband, they won't change and you will only ostracize yourself. Of course I find myself wanting to be around them less and less anyways...

  by TexasTim64 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:28:54 AM PDT

  •  Texas, this is what I"m scared of

    I more or less ignored my brother over the weekend (we have a big family) becauase I was so scared that I would blurt out with something.  So I find myself editing myself out of his life story....and that's nuts....but its also less hard, so to speak.

    by Southern Hope on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:47:09 AM PDT

•  you can

  set an example. It does sound like you do.

  Pray and don't be afraid to ask questions of him. But ask them in leading ways: "How do you discipline your kids? does it work? Why do you discipline them?" then after hearing his answers give him an example of some discipline you did and why and how well it worked.

  I wonder how much of this is due to the fact they can afford a nanny.

  by DrillSgtK on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:28:58 AM PDT

•  Miss Blue is probably right -

  but I'd hate to see my brother's family go down the tubes.  Diet is incredibly important and these habits will affect the children's health - both mental and physical thruout their adult life.  If you can get your brother alone, you might approach it.  If he is intelligent, surely he knows that.  

  As well, the possibility exists that if you don't approach him you may blurt something hurtful out.

  Let me say that I am the most nonconfrontational bunch of cells on the planet.  I can hardly confront my dogs.  But if I were more gutsy, I'd not let it go.

   

  by xanthe on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:32:03 AM PDT

•  If you cut them off they lose opportunity for

  different role models.  Since the new baby is on the way, invite the kids to stay with your family for a month in the summer.  It'll drive you crazy because their behavior will be, well, bad.  BUT they'll eat differently, play differently, have different expectations.  It'll be hard for you, good for them.

  by St Louis Woman on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:34:19 AM PDT

  •  The World is Full Of Role Models

    Your family is the place you go where they have to take you in.  That's the difference.  There is nothing to be gained by poisoning the atmosphere.  

    There is always objective medical fact one way or another on childraising, and every one of us 50 and up has seen it go one step up and two steps back.  There are always people whose opinions are different than those of the parents.  

    They get to raise their kids the way they want, and we get to raise ours the way we want.  Absent abuse or neglect - which is not a candy bar for breakfast - that's how it goes.  

    by Fungible Chattel on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:43:42 AM PDT

  •  Different role models

    I agree. Kids are very flexible and understand quickly that appropriate behavior in one situation may not be appropriate in another. If they can learn some better habits from you maybe there will be some carry over. If nothing else maybe they'll be more tolerable for you to be around.

    Although your brother and sil may not have a clue about providing good nutrition, in my experience those who hang out with the nanny set have a horror of obesity. Can you drop pointed hints about the epidemic of childhood obesity in this country and connect it with the imminent future in store for their children?

    by bluebrain on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:52:32 AM PDT

•  You Sound Like My Sister...

  She never liked the way I was raising my kids either.  

  We haven't spoken in 7 years.

  Think seriously about whether you want to rupture the relationship permanently.  If you're willing to take that risk, go ahead and let your feelings be known.  Otherwise shut up about it.  Only they have the whole picture and only they can raise their own kids.  

  The only moments I really regret as a parent are the ones where I took someone else's advice and went against my instincts.   When I listened to my own heart and did what I knew was right, we were fine, even when I had effed up in a cosmic way.  

  by Fungible Chattel on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:35:47 AM PDT

  •  I was typing as you were.....

    funny same results......

    by JammerML on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:38:36 AM PDT

•  I hate to be cantankerous....

  I drank cokes when I was a kid...I threw tantrums, I played video games, I ate a lot of candy....I turned out just fine....and happy.....

  I have three children, with one on the way....They don't eat poorly, nor do they have a lot of fits....but my sister and her boyfriend (who have no children, nor plan to) see it fit to lecture me about my parenting skills.

  They also attempt to discipline my children in my home occasionally. Every time they do I immediately tell my children to continue with whatever it is they were disciplined for, because it is not their job to discipline my children.

  I see your concern is great for these children, but perhaps you should relax, chances are they'll turn out fine.

  by JammerML on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:37:32 AM PDT

  •  Point well-taken JammerML

    and I sometimes think your way -- I drank cokes too....ate salty canned vegetables until I was in college....had dinners of Wonder Break....but two things: 1) what I wouldn't give to be able to not have that nutritional background (I have thinning bones, for example, and my doc thinks its because I didn't touch a dairy or calicum product until I was in my late teens) and I don't want to subject a new generation to it.....also, 2) there is, of course, more to this story.  

    My brother suffers from terrible migraines....and sugar, it turns out, is the trigger.  So he's cut all of that out and the migraines have decreased.  But I literally can't handle seeing him set up his offspring in the same fashion (since migraines over have a genetic component).  He could give his kids a great gift by not having them have the same health problems....but its almost like he has a fatalistic view of destiny.

    by Southern Hope on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:44:56 AM PDT

  •  Chances Are

    They'll turn out obese.

    by pletzs on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:04:01 AM PDT

    •  hmmm, ok....let's run with that

      They are obese.....I dare say that the reason we have such a problem in America is that we are wealthy, and overindulge....as a culture.....

      That's not necessarily parenting.

      by JammerML on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 01:34:27 PM PDT

      •  Many European Nations Are Wealthier

        With higher per capita income and a higher standard of living and far lower rates of obesity.

        And if parents aren't teaching their kids how to eat, who is? And why are the parents letting them?

        by pletzs on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 02:07:45 PM PDT

      •  And

        Poor people have higher rates of obesity than rich people.

        by pletzs on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 02:08:37 PM PDT

•  My experience with

  this kind of situation is that if you offer unsolicited advice you will be tuned out.  If your family is visiting your home for the holidays try offering healthy alternatives to the 11AM candy bar and Coke.  Your brother and his wife might notice the improved behavior of their daughter sans Coke and decide on their own to reconsider her "diet".  As for the behavior, I have told my nieces and nephews to sit down when we are in public places and if their parents don't like it TOUGH!

  by Patricia Bruner on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:38:20 AM PDT

  •  not a bad approach....

    Although I would tell the kids to continue about their business....just to make a point that they need a strong individuality, and to question authority.

    I expect them to challenge me regularly...as they should.

    by JammerML on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:40:50 AM PDT

    •  Yeah I agree about the challenging

      of authority and individuality, and I have tried to encourage that.  BUT I am also old fashioned enough to believe that certain behaviors in public are not acceptable.  I was strict about that with my children and while they are not perfect adults, they do know how to behave courteously in public and that has served them well.

      by Patricia Bruner on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:49:29 AM PDT

    •  If your children...

      should fall and hurt themselves I'm sure you want everyone to leave them right there until you, the official provider of all that is parental, come to dispense the first aid.  I understand about not wanting to be undermined, but I think you can take it beyond reasonable.

      by Tonedevil on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:02:42 AM PDT

    •  Remind Me

      To move to a different table if your family ever sits down next to mine at a restaurant. Sorry, but parenting asks for a little more than t-shirt philosophy. Kids under the age of 12 who "question authority" are, generally speaking, pains in the asses that also make parenting for everyone else that much more challenging.

      by pletzs on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:08:31 AM PDT

      •  A restaurant is exactly the place

        where I told my sibling's children to SIT DOWN.  Not only is it rude to allow your children to wander around it is also dangerous for those serving the food.  I love kids but tire of the little tyrants I see in public on a daily basis whose parents have no idea how to make them behave!

        by Patricia Bruner on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:46:01 AM PDT

        •  My sister-in-law was angry ...

          when I asked my then 4-year-old nephew to stop hitting the glass repeatedly while we were eating in a restaurant.

          My kids are generally good little restaurant eaters, and I don't understand the parents who just let their kids wander around or make a scene. My kids aren't perfect, and they've been known to cry or fuss if they're hungry and things, but really, even my 2-year-old knows restaurants aren't places to roam free. She looks immediately for her chair and crayons.

          by Magenta on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:28:27 AM PDT

•  What do you do?

  Mind your own business. You cannot lead other people's lives for them, and while their children are minors, if you are not prepared to argue (in the courts) that the parents are unfit (and volunteer to take custody), then you must acquiesce to the freedom they have to raise their children as they see fit.

  After all, while you may THINK and BELIEVE that your methods/philosophies etc., are superior, you can't PROVE it, other than anecdotally, and even if you could, it's an absurd precedent -- there are an infinite number of inferior parents, what do we do, take ALL their children away?

  MYOB. Glass houses. Splinter in thy brother's eye. Let him cast the first stone. Yadda yadda.

  A positive step you can take? Be a good example, and a good Aunt -- that is, after all, your ACTUAL role here.

  by PBJ Diddy on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:55:21 AM PDT

  •  P.S.,

    unless they are being grossly abused, the children of disastrous parents will probably grow up to be adults, just the same.  

    Once they are of an age to make decisions themselves, you can have a profound effect on them if you have a good rapport with them, and they may actually choose to live quit differently than they were raised -- perhaps due to your advice/example...think about all the progressive children of conservative parents.

    by PBJ Diddy on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:59:34 AM PDT

    •  I think I've turned out reasonably well.

      And I did not win big in the parent lottery. But, as you say, no one was out and out physically abusive (emotionally, well, definitely at least sometimes -- I still remember my mom's comment on my solo in high school -- "Oh, this one must be tone deaf.")

      When I was in college, she said I was spending too much money eating out (scheduling issues with my last class/newspaper work/dining hall), and if I could buy a bag of potato chips on the meal plan, then that's what I should eat. And she was quite serious in thinking that a valid dinner choice.

      I had an entirely ridiculous, schizophrenic childhood mostly overseen by someone who I think could legitimately be diagnosed a narcissist. And, you know, that sucks, but all parents do the best they can.

      It sounds at least like these kids are going to have some fantastic opportunities later in life to compensate a bit for the lack of discipline.

      by Magenta on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:08:08 AM PDT

•  If you love your brother and his kids ...

  stay out of it.

  They almost certainly won't listen. You'll definitely piss them off, and they may or may not talk to you depending on how sensitive the wife is.

  I have the opposite sort of problem with my mom. I don't make great dietary choices for the kids every time, but I try to keep things reasonable. But when mom visits, it will be 10 in the morning and she'll think I'm mean for not letting them have chocolate. She's always convinced that my perfectly middle-of-the-road-sized kids are starving to death because they're not overweight like my brother's kids. And she's always offering unsolicited advice on how to parent them, when to keep them home from school, how to handle their educational needs in general, how to discipline, etc.

  But, you know, it's my mom. I get pissed and tell her off, but it's mom, so we both back off. Not true for siblings.

  by Magenta on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:57:45 AM PDT

•  a tough nut no doubt

  ah this sounds like one of those family issues that could very well end up in a disaster. good luck ... and i would caution you to tread lightly at first.

  that being said, can i add a couple suggestions ... if you are able to get your brother and sister in law to listen; start with very small incremental remedial steps ... the children will respond better hopefully. additionally, stress consistency ... in my experience children most often become nuts over inconsistent responses. i might also add i firmly believe most children respond to limits and structure ... it reinforces they are valued. the secret of good parenting is knowing when to change the limits as they age and become more responsible.

  good luck!

  by bamabarrron on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:02:16 AM PDT

•  Thank them for the valuable service they provide:

  If you're like me, you screw up this parenting thing in about equal proportion to getting it right.  The screw-ups seem to be a lot more public and the guilt of parenting poorly sticks around longer than the glow of getting it right.  But, thanks to your brother and sister-in-law it's easier to realize that, even when you snap at Southern Jr. for repeatedly ramming his shopping cart into the back of your legs, you know you're at least making the effort to get it right, that the cart used as a ramming weapon is filled with decent food, some of which your child even picked out on their own, 'cause they know bananas, and carrots, and yogurt, and lettuce, and even the expensive box of satsumas, are all tasty, healthful food, and that maybe, after all you're a pretty damn good parent.  

  And then parent publicly.  Let your brother and sister-in-law see that parenting can be a joy, that taking time to feed your kids nutritious food is no more difficult than feeding them crap. That kids will pretty much eat what you make available to them.  Your own kids will do the subversive work of making it seem easy and attractive, and if your brother doesn't get it, his kids might.

  And do what you can to make their parenting burden an easier one.  Try to overlook their public mistakes and support their less visible parenting successes.  If they're like we are, they just want to get it right, and maybe are just too damned overwhelmed to figure out how to best do that.

  by DaveHD on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:05:11 AM PDT

•  It's not the diet, it's the demands.

  I have a special needs son who goes to preschool.  One of my jobs every morning is to make sure he eats something for breakfast.  It isn't easy.  I could feed him his favorite junk food every morning and be sure he didn't show up at school with an empty stomach, but I don't.  He gets offered something that he ordinarily eats and if he eats it - hurrah, if he doesn't then the teacher gets a note.

  So my issue wouldn't be with candy bars and soda, as much as it makes me cringe.  It would be that they cave to her demands.  It's not fun setting limits.  There is screaming and crying and my son pulled off his pants and diaper in protest once.  But my kid doesn't hate me, he's just expressing his frustration.  So I tell him "I understand that you are upset.  I understand that you are angry.  But you still can't have __.".  And so long as you are consistent, the hissy fits and tantrums will be scarce.

  So maybe you could suggest that they keep something that she likes on hand.  They make real juice boxes without loads of sweeteners.  They make reasonable snacks - gold fish crackers aren't too bad nutritionally.  Just something to feed a kid when they are hungry.  

  by Fabian on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:07:02 AM PDT

  •  exactly!!!!!!

    You nailed it......

    by JammerML on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 01:37:49 PM PDT

•  Two separate issues here: the diet, while

  abysmal, is really something that I wouldn't comment about. I have sisters in-law that feed their kids worse than what you descibe, and with no table manners to boot.

  The uncontrolled behavior is the other. Do you know what undisciplined 3 and 5 year olds turn into? Undisciplined 13 and 15 year olds that NO ONE wants to invite to their house. I never have understood this about parents: sure, it's hard to monitor and discipline your children when they are young, but my goodness - imagine what it's going to be like when they're older. Mix in 8 hours plus of day care, and well, it's not a good mix.

  Fungible makes a good point - how much do you value your relationship? It might be that 10 years from now it's a mute point; letting it play itself out may be the best course.

  by Spud1 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:15:52 AM PDT

  •  The diet AND behavior have correlations

    A junky diet filled with sugar or HF corn syrup will cause irritability or high strung behavior in children as well as predispose them to obesity or diabetes.  As will caffeine in soft drinks.

    They need to be made aware of this, wean the kids and themselves off of this type of diet and a lot of the problems will diminish or go away.

    However, the dad needs to start with getting off the Red Bull.

    by Ammo Hauler on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:38:23 AM PDT

  •  The Real Trouble

    Is mixing in alcohol and automobiles when they are 15. The kids described in the diary are the kinds of kids memorialized by homemade roadside shrines.

    by pletzs on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:13:38 AM PDT

•  Just for fun....

  Observe the children's nonverbal language.  I have two language delayed boys(4 & 6) and spend/spend much time figuring out what they want by their behavior.  Some things are easy.  When the four year old grabs a pillow and tries  to crawl into my lap, he is tired.  Sometimes when kids are obnoxious or demanding they just want some attention.  Sometimes they provoke conflicts that they know they can win.  You can give them attention.  If they are provoking conflicts(ie arguing over food/drink choices) frequently, they may be asserting control over their parents.  That's not a good sign.

  I've seen kids do that and it is amazing how young they start.  I've seen three year olds who who blatantly ignore their parents - repeatedly.  

  by Fabian on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:13:38 AM PDT

•  too many parents today

  are afraid to say "no" to their kids.  The kids get the upper hand over the parents and nothing good will come of it.

  Just wait until they hear the word "no" for the first time. Perhaps in school. Perhaps in the workplace. Perhaps when they are President of the United States, and Congress says "no".

  by libertyisliberal on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:38:18 AM PDT