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Do you really think this is about waterboarding?

You've taken the bait.

Do you really think they would destroy tapes that showed mere waterboarding?

They WANT you to hysterically scream "waterboarding is torture!" over and over again.  That's exactly what they want!

What they're really doing is genital mutilation and rape and torturing children in front of their parents.  And God-Only-Knows what other sadistic and medievel bullshit.  

Quit falling for their shit!  I've written two dairies in two nights about this, and still all anybody wants to hear about is the "waterboarding" lie.  

Enough!

I will now let YucatanMan finish this diary for me!  (this was his comment in response to mine above, and he did a better job than I could have):

* [new] Seriously, accurately, precisely correct. (1+ / 0-)

Since when have we ever seen a CIA agent (like a couple years ago at the longest) appear on fucking NIGHTLINE and discuss precisely what his assignment was, what activities he undertook in that assignment, who he tortured, how well it worked, and how it is necessary but "probably" wrong.

This is a fucking disinformation campaign from top to bottom. Theyrereal has it exactly right. "Waterboarding" is a simple little game in most people's minds.  It does not involve razor blades and penis tips.  It does not involve violent rape of 14 yo boys by prison guards. It does not involve the abuse of children in front of their father to get him to talk.

"Waterboarding" indeed. Bull-fucking-shit.

Here's what they are doing, Karl Rove's favorite tactic:  Holding up a pretty shining object, while they run out the back door with the really dirty shit.

These fucking bastards are brutal criminals of the worst kind. Waterboarding is their shiny object. Scream about it all you want, but the average American thinks, "Yeah, pour some water on his face and get him to talk. No more of this explosion business around here."

But tell the average American that you took razor blades to a man's penis and poured alcohol on it, and they'd cringe in personal pain. As long as the talk is about waterboarding, they skate home free.

Oh, and that CIA agent at the beginning of my comment?  Do you think he just "decided" to "present" himself to ABC News NightLine without official clearance and approval?  

IF he is a real CIA agent, he is still conducting the campaign he was assigned to do. He didn't say one word without official approval.  He'd be arrested and jailed otherwise. And no one would even know he was jailed. You don't think there is some kind of freaking non-disclosure clause?  Some kind of code of silence about past missions?

And, yet, check out every article written and the Nightline show itself:  

>> NO ONE says anything about how and why he came forward.

>> NO ONE says whether he got permission.  

>> NO ONE asks, "Isn't it a bit odd that a CIA agent discloses all this 'independently' immediately after an admission of criminal activity AT and BY the CIA has taken place????"

Yeah, he was jus a walkin down the street and said, "I'm gonna do me an interview."  What crap.

We hear what they want us to hear. They try to move our attention where they want it. The crimes are likely much more severe than we even know. And what we know is horrific. These people should be on trial.

by YucatanMan on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:25:01 PM PST

Thanks, YucatanMan.  Somebody who freaking gets it.  

The rest of you?  I dunno, I'm worried about the way you keep falling for these tricks ...

Sheeeeesh ....

Originally posted to theyrereal on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:09 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Are you kidding? (17+ / 0-)

      You know what people think when you talk about slicing terrorists' genitals?  Cruel and unusual punishment, not torture.

      Now mind you, when you talk about forcing someone to inhale water until their lungs fill up with water and they literally can't draw a breath and then you do it over and over again, then that is torture.

      Now men might cringe and cup their genitals when you talk about razors and blood, but women aren't going to be nearly so swayed.  We bleed monthly.  We get pregnant.  We give birth.  We have our breasts cut off to save our lives.  We get hysterectomies to save our health.  Our genitals aren't our Crown Jewels.  We don't give them pet names.  

      Want to know what makes people cringe?

      According to a videotaped confession and signed affidavit from Trenor, on July 24, 2007, she and Zeigler beat Riley with two leather belts and held her head under water in the bathtub. She also said Zeigler picked her daughter up by her hair, threw her across the room, and slammed her head into the tile floor

      That's baby Grace they are talking about, a little girl.  The beatings are horrible enough, but most people will point to holding her head under water as being the worst part.  

      Waterboarding IS torture.  Drowning someone repeatedly is torture.  Once you explain exactly what happens to someone during waterboarding, it is obvious that what you are doing is almost, but not quite, killing them.  

      No more lies - IMPEACH!

      by Fabian on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:29:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  waterboarding still carries the death penalty as (7+ / 0-)

      a warcrime.

      Dead is dead whether they get 'em for the waterboarding or the genital mutilation.  May as well hang them with the rope they brought and scare the shit out of the others to spill the beans on the really creepy shit.

      So this is not extreme enough for you, and you want to get them for the really nasty crap... water boarding IS nasty and it IS brutal so please stop giving them just an eensy bit of moral cover by implying that it is any less torture then the other stuff!

      And that is partially what you are doing whether you know it or not.

    •  This Makes Me Sick To My Very Soul (10+ / 0-)

      Got to say that there is something very fishy about this Kyriakou dude.  Very fishy!

      I would expect that if he was doing this AGAINST the wishes of the CIA and other torture-supporting agencies they would be all over it trying to discredit him.  But they are NOT which lends credence to this diary's main point.

      He is way too calm about admitting to war crimes. Also there is no REAL appearence of genuine shame for what he's done.  He has most certainly not received tough questioning from the media yet.  I can't figure out why he is doing this at all.

      Diary is RECOMMEMDED for further discussion.

      This about about saving souls.  Our own.

      You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

      by mattman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:51:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Last night on MSNBC (10+ / 0-)

        Dan Abrams asked the guy why he came forward and if he would get into trouble for it.  Kyriakou said that what he was doing was OK as long as he didn't reveal anything classified (that wasn't the exact word he used).  Abrams asked him if he knew of other torture tactics that American backed interrogators had used.  Kyriakou said he couldn't answer that.

        I think that theyrereal is correct that this is a disinformation campaign.  Everyone knows that the U.S. has waterboarded people, so they're more or less conceding that as fact.  They do want us to focus on waterboarding and get us to think  it's either not that bad or that it was necessary at in 2002 (that's what Kyriakou keeps saying).

        But we can't lose sight of the fact that waterboarding is torture.  Someone who does that is very much like a murderer who strangles their victim up to the point of death and then stops brings the victim back and then strangles again.  This is what many serial killer have done, because they like killing.  That is torture and so is bring someone to the point of death by drowning.

        Somehow we are going to have to get the Democrats to take action on this, even though they are complicit.  Because they are complicit they need to demand and get a special prosecutor.  The fact that torture has been and probably still is being done by the U.S. has to be confronted.

        "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

        by Boston Boomer on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:21:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just like Watergate was a "third-rate burglary" (7+ / 0-)

          A classic "modified limited hangout". Standard damage control procedure.  The mass media always plays along with it, initially, until the Congressional opposition pipes up.  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          Modified limited hang out is a phrase first spoken by John Ehrlichman and captured in the Watergate tapes. It incorporates the preexisting term limited hangout. Frequently cited as evoking the Nixon administration's strategy of admitting only what it was compelled to admit, the phrase has also become a political catchphrase used to describe any grudging partial release of information.[1]

          The phrase was coined in the following exchange, from a March 22, 1973 meeting between Richard Nixon, John Dean, John Ehrlichman, John Mitchell, and H.R. Haldeman:

          " PRESIDENT: You think, you think we want to, want to go
          this route now? And the--let it hang out, so to speak?

          DEAN: Well, it's, it isn't really that--

          HALDEMAN: It's a limited hang out.

          DEAN: It's a limited hang out.

          EHRLICHMAN: It's a modified limited hang out.

          PRESIDENT: Well, it's only the questions of the thing hanging out publicly or privately.
          "

          [2]

          Before this exchange, the discussion captures Nixon outlining to Dean the content of a report that Dean would create, laying out a misleading view of the role of the White House staff in events surrounding the Watergate burglary.

          The technique didn't save their asses in 1974, and it's our job to make sure it won't this time.

          Keep on screaming.

  •  You can only go (7+ / 0-)

    with what you know.  We know they waterboard people.  They've confessed to it.  Let's stick to working the problem rationally, methinks.

  •  Evidence? (12+ / 0-)

    It's not like I don't think you're right - you probably are.

    But you cannot make claims like this and expect to have anyone believe them, without evidence.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 3880+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

    by Miss Blue on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:19:38 PM PST

    •  and this (15+ / 0-)

      There's what Dumbo posted already, above this, which is what my last two diaries were about.  Then there's this:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      which contains this:

      But the new report, according to Pentagon sources, will show that MPs were using their animals (attack dogs) to make juveniles -- as young as 15 years old -- urinate on themselves as part of a competition.

      and this:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      which contains this:

      "Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."

      And there's this:

      Republican Senator Lindsay Graham: "The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."

      and there's this:

      In recent weeks, the officials said, guards have begun strapping recalcitrant detainees into "restraint chairs," sometimes for hours a day, to feed them through tubes and prevent them from deliberately vomiting afterward. Detainees who refuse to eat have also been placed in isolation for extended periods in what the officials said was an effort to keep them from being encouraged by other hunger strikers.
      (snip)
      "It is clear that the government has ended the hunger strike through the use of force and through the most brutal and inhumane types of treatment," said Thomas B. Wilner, a lawyer at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, who last week visited the six Kuwaiti detainees he represents. "It is a disgrace."

      But that's not "interrogation" so I guess it doesn't count.

      And this is just the shit we know about.

      Why do you think they destroyed the tapes?  Hundreds of hours of tape, mind you.  It doesn't take "hundreds of hours" to just waterboard a few people.

    •  Terry Gross had an interview (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theyrereal, kurt

      a couple months back with the lawyer of a former detainee.  He mentioned genital mutilations and such in the context of it not being nearly as distressing to his client as the psychological techniques used such as sleep deprivation and harcore metal at top volume for weeks.

      He also mentioned that there was evidence of rage against the machine being used for this, which I find perversely funny.

      The gist of the comment was "they cut up his penis, but that wasn't the worst part."

  •  And I Also Feel That the Actual Data Obtained (14+ / 0-)

    is part of the mix too.

    Look, empire is forcefully demonstrating independence from Constitutional government. The Pentagon declaring it can order troops not to testify before Congress is another demonstration.

    Empire is not quite ready to state its independence (or is it supremacy?) publicly --but that day's coming soon enough.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:20:12 PM PST

  •  I have to ask this.... (4+ / 0-)

    ....because I care.

    Are you "RealityBias"?

    I am one of the first to say I kind of miss him, he added a certain je ne ce qui (or however it's spelled) to the site.  

    Either way, you have got to give some space between your diaries.  They're all about this one topic.  People don't care much for repitition.  And if you're not him, you'll end up LIKE him.

    (and if you are him, welcome back, but tone it down k?)

    This comment has been "Dawn-approved" for your protection.

    by DawnG on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:21:19 PM PST

  •  Torture is torture, period (13+ / 0-)

    the outrage is that any form of torture (activities that are agreed upon by the Geneva Conventions and every civilized nation as torture) is being carried out in our names.

    Who knows exactly what has been done. Does the horrific type of torture really matter? Waterboarding is more "palatable" than some of the things you describe (in your unsourced account)?

    I don't think so.

    Waterboarding is something that the administration and CIA is basically admitting they have committed. Waterboarding is considered to be torture, period.

    The point is that our government is admitting they have repeatedly committed a known and recognized form of torture on prisoners. It's a point worth making over and over again.

    Our government has tortured people in our names. And they're not afraid to admit it.

    Terrifying, indeed.

    I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

    by land of the free on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:28:05 PM PST

    •  Yes and no. (6+ / 0-)

      Yes, torture is torture.  But I think "waterboarding" sounds a whole lot more palatable to the average American than "having your penis sliced with a razor."  It's sort of like the difference between being mugged and being beaten to within an inch of your life by robbers.  More people would be inclined to shrug their shoulders at a mugging than the latter crime, even though neither one is acceptable.

      •  however (14+ / 0-)

        waterboarding is drowning a person, and perhaps they live, perhaps they die. It's actualy more like being beaten to within an inch of your life, probably.

        But these semantics don't really matter.

        The mere fact that people might consider waterboarding as possibly acceptable shows what a successful job the Republicans have done to sell their terror to the American people via the media.

        One way to fight back this ignorance is to remind people that for decades, waterboarding has been recognized by the US and other countries as torture.

        Bush has directly authorized the torture of prisoners. Period.

        That's the only point that matters.

        I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

        by land of the free on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:37:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That kind of argument goes nowhere (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman

          with the "press" or the American people.  Once you start defending that waterboarding is indeed torture, you've lost!  

          They WANT us to run around screaming "waterboarding is torture!"  

          •  I don't understand this arguement at all (0+ / 0-)

            doesn't it make a little more sense that they'd rather us not know about nor be talking about torture at all?

            How have we "lost" by arguing that a recognized form of torture is, indeed, torture and unacceptable?

            You "lose" if you just give up, ignore it, and let people believe that waterboarding is justified and acceptable.

            I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

            by land of the free on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 06:51:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's the "I don't beat my wife" psychology (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kurt

              This isn't about truth, or face, or anything else, this is strictly about perception.  

              Remember how well "I am not a crook" went over wiith Nixon?

              They control the terms of the debate, like they always do.  They have decided to sell the American people this notion that waterboarding is merely an unpleasant suppository, i.e. that it works and causes no permanent damage.  

              For us to scream back "You're wrong!" doesn't get us ANYWHERE.  

              We can respond two ways to this:

              a.  Point out the techniques they HAVE used that are undeniably sadistic, that no "journalist" would EVER undergo as part of an "investigation" (remember there are some who have volunteered to be waterboarded to report on what it's like)

              b.  Demand that Alberto Gonzales be waterboarded to improve his memory and get HIM to talk.  

              •  try this analogy (0+ / 0-)

                Nixon: "I am not a crook"
                is equal to Bush: "We do not torture"

                The way Nixon was exposed as a crook was that the public complained about it, didn't buy the Republican talking point that it wasn't an important crime (just a third-rate burglary), and they demanded investigations.

                The way Bush is exposed as a torturer is the public complain about it, they don't buy the Republican talking point that waterboarding isn't that big of a deal, and they demand investigations.

                I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

                by land of the free on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:00:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well ... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dumbo, land of the free

                  I think times have changed since then and now that the neo-cons have such a lock on the "media" and spoon-feed the public whatever they want, that none of this will be forthcoming unless we use other tactics.

                  I mean, I hope you're right, but I'm pretty pessimistic.  Bush should have already gone down just for his role in the Enron scandal, then for his (how to put this) "incompetence" as far as 9/11, then for lying us into the Wrong War, then for Katrina ......

                  It seems there's nothing they'll cover his ass over.  Somebody posted a comment in one of these diaries, saying something like "Bush could club puppies on the White House Lawn and the "press" would say he was protecting us".

                  I'm pretty pessimistic.

    •  Partial Drowning Interrogation Technique. (7+ / 0-)

      That's the new name for it.

      And if you really get into an argument with somebody who says it's not torture, have them read this article by Malcolm Nance, author of the SERE training manual.

      There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

      1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.
      1. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

      Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

      Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

      Call it "Chinese Water Torture," "the Barrel," or "the Waterfall," it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.

      1. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture.
    •  They're pushing the Overton Window (6+ / 0-)

      and while you and I know damn well that waterboarding is torture, that is NOT the point -- the POINT is that they are convincing the American public, through the complicit media, that waterboarding is the nastiest technique they use (which is a lie) and also that it's really not that bad and saves lives.  Sure it's torture, but so's going to the dentist and getting a root canal, right?  

      Do a search here on Dailykos for the Overton Window if you don't know what THAT'S about.  Please, it should be required reading for everybody.  

      •  I don't care which is "less nasty" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        it's all bad.

        Arguing about which torture techniques are more tolerable is ridiculous.

        I reject the notion that discussing how waterboarding is a recognized form of torture and our government is acknowledging and trying to justify it's use is a bad idea. It's not falling for the propaganda. Just the fact that people realize that Bush lied when he said "we do not torture", that a majority of people are disgusted with the notion of our government actively participating in (and our President authorizing) recognized forms of torture - that makes the discussion valid and important.

        Sure, there are a minority of loud mouthed O'Reilly regurgitators who will try and justify torture. As humans, we need to reject such justifications and remind them that all forms of torture - no matter how heinous nor how "less egregious" on the surface these techniques may be described - is absolutely unacceptable.

        I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

        by land of the free on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 06:50:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The fact that we're debating what tactics (11+ / 0-)

    are the most egregious of torture tactics employed by the CIA really makes me sick.

    I want to move to Canada. Enough.

    •  exactly my point. (9+ / 0-)

      It is difficult to comprehend how the parsing of torture tactics has become commonplace in the American dialogue.

      I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

      by land of the free on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:39:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's not the point (0+ / 0-)

      The point is, they want us to use the "I don't beat my wife" psychology.

      This isn't about truth, or facts, or anything else, this is strictly about perception.  

      Remember how well "I am not a crook" went over wiith Nixon?

      They control the terms of the debate, like they always do.  They have decided to sell the American people this notion that waterboarding is merely an unpleasant suppository, i.e. that it works and causes no permanent damage.  

      For us to scream back "You're wrong!" doesn't get us ANYWHERE.  

      We can respond two ways to this:

      a.  Point out the techniques they HAVE used that are undeniably sadistic, that no "journalist" would EVER undergo as part of an "investigation" (remember there are some who have volunteered to be waterboarded to report on what it's like)

      b.  Demand that Alberto Gonzales be waterboarded to improve his memory and get HIM to talk.  

      This isn't about torture, this is about political warfare now.  

  •  Whatever happened to the Guantanamo videotapes? (4+ / 0-)

    They existed at one time and were seen by some in Congress (?) around two years ago.
    I recall that they were to be shown edited (?) but then nothing.

    Why have GHWB, GWB and the Unification Church bought 1.729 Million Acres in Paraguay since 2000?

    by cosette on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:41:25 PM PST

  •  "Waterboarding is just like swimming."... (10+ / 0-)

    According to Kit Bond, Senator (R) from Missouri, waterboarding is just like swimming: freestyle, backstroke etc., as there are different styles available, hence it cannot really be classified as torture.

    That is what he said this evening while interviewed by Jim Lehrer of the PBS NewsHour Lehrer report. Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) was on too and she said it was absolutely torture and unacceptable. Bond, who is Vice Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, says we are totally compliant with the Geneva Conventions and therefore don't need to have the CIA subscribe to the Army Code/Handbook on Interrogation. He says that is only for grunts who pick other grunts on the battlefield.

    (Thanks to cosmic debris for the above, "verbatim.")

    So, an SAT question for ya:

    Waterboarding is to swimming, as:

    a) the rack is to chiropractic medicine,

    b) auto da fe is to Ask.com,

    c) George Bush is to a human lifeform

    d) all of the above

    "If I don't see you no more in this world, I'll see you in the next world...and don't be late!" (Jimi Hendrix)

    by Faheyman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:49:56 PM PST

  •  Gotta agree with theyrereal (11+ / 0-)

    If you watch the now-famous ABC interview it is just the creepiest thing you ever saw.  

    I don't believe a word that dude says.

    Romney: Heaven, bitches!

    by LithiumCola on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:58:36 PM PST

  •  I find it plausible (10+ / 0-)

    that they are attempting to move the overton window and make torture acceptable. That said, we still need to be screaming that it is wrong and why it is wrong when we stop screaming then they win.

  •  Look, a bunny (10+ / 0-)

    The whole thing about CIA tapes, as has been pointed out here on DKos when it first surfaced a few days ago, is a pure distraction campaign in the first place, designed (even beyond any misdirection on torture) to make us stop talking and thinking about Bush's flat-out lies about Iran!!!! They shouted, "Look, a (waterboard) bunny!" and the media as a whole and the nation in general turned to look and thereby dropped all thoughts about Bush's bald-faced lies and took up with contemplating the navel of waterboarding tapes.

    The obvious lies, had they had a day or so more of media attention, should have started impeachment hearings. The tapes, even by being endlessly flogged over and over, won't.

    If the CIA was told to torture, it did. If it was told to throw out tapes, it did. If it was told to leak that news, it did.

    Who knows, the leak of the CIA tape info could be payback for the leak of the NIE info that revealed Bush's lying.

    It's such a typical Rovian maneuver, throwing out a juicy new bone of distraction to be chewed at when the heat is on, a maneuver that has been endlessly repeated in this administration, quick, change the subject, that I'm amazed anyone at all fell for it. What a bunch of gutless and unthinking wonders on the Hill and in the press.

    •  I had that thought when the tapes story came out. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah

      Who knows, the leak of the CIA tape info could be payback for the leak of the NIE info that revealed Bush's lying.

      If that's true, then maybe this guy saying that Bush personally approved the torture is the CIA getting back at Bush while trying to defend the CIA interrogators who tortured under orders.

      "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

      by Boston Boomer on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:43:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This stuff will come out. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jeffersonian Democrat

    Federal emplorees tried to assinate Hitler. As soon as Bush loses his retal capabilities there will be a flood of whistle blowers. They put a crony at the top whose goal is destroy function(lead in toys).Does anybody know morale for career federal enployees.
    I've heard it in comments before and its something we can achiece. We need to find out which canidates will pardon these bastards.

    The pen is mightier than the sword

    by ghett on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:31:35 AM PST

  •  How about bombing the fuck out of a nation of (11+ / 0-)

    innocents?

    Torture is the smallest of the many war crimes committed by this administration.

    Iraq represented NO threat to the US whatsoever.

    The US President and his government, not some nefarious bunch of non-entities, decided to invade a country on the other side of the world, causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

    The US Congress supported this illegal invasion and continue to support the occupation of this nation.

    Your fundamental premise is spot-on. Every time we focus on a detail, we lose sight of the big picture.

    That's the plan. And Dems get to walk away from their own culpability in the process.

    That's why the narrative won't change until 2009.

    Recc'd.

  •  I posted on this yesterday (7+ / 0-)

    but I think it is appropriate to post this again:

    any information an operative has is obsolete in 24-48 hours.  They are not stupid, the compartmentalize information, too.

    So why do they torture?  Only for indoctrination and exploitation - that's it!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with information.  When interrogators in WWII sought information on war crimes (different, no time restraints), they played chess and ping-pong with them.  They didn't pull out fingernails, chop off fingers, or waterboard.  Because they wanted information, and reliable information.

    I am so sick of the Jack Bauer crap and I've never seen 24!

    I also think this CIA officer is full of shit!

    This opinion is formed by a US Army SERE school grad.

    And that's all I have to say about that.

    And I have diaried on my own SERE experience, two years ago, here:
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    I feel Yuc-Man is absolutely correct in his assessment.

    "Jedoch ich wollte, dass ihr nicht schon triumphiert: Der SchoƟ ist fruchtbar noch, aus dem das kroch." -Bertolt Brecht

    by Jeffersonian Democrat on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:44:11 AM PST

  •  Waterboarding doesn't leave visible scars (8+ / 0-)

    that would be one reason to use it instead of the more nefarious horrible techniques. The torturers can literally walk away with no blood on their hands.

    For the rest:
    "We do not discuss enhanced interrogation [aka torture] techniques."

    You know, I was beginning to wonder about the focus on this waterboarding.

    CNN even has clips of people who volunteered to undergo it so that they could video-tape/write/talk about the experience.

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:45:52 AM PST

  •  So glad you brought this up! (6+ / 0-)

    And I had the same question as Yucatanman did here:

    Since when have we ever seen a CIA agent (like a couple years ago at the longest) appear on fucking NIGHTLINE and discuss precisely what his assignment was, what activities he undertook in that assignment, who he tortured, how well it worked, and how it is necessary but "probably" wrong.

    It struck me as odd, questionable and suspicious too.

    Go to your window [and http://youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew]

    by coffeeinamrica on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:57:20 AM PST

  •  Keep reminding us,theyrereal, (5+ / 0-)

    these horrific things are not America's way. We must do everything we can to stop this insanity and erase this stain from our country. Though I don't see this happening as America's reputation will always be stained with the Bush doctrines.

    I pray for America's future generations.

    *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

    by bonesy on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:14:19 AM PST

  •  Pay no attention to the man (6+ / 0-)

    behind the curtain. Excellent diary which I believe is right on the money.

    The really sad thing is that I (unfortunately) believe these bastards will get away with it. Somehow.

    Nixon went down for lying about a 2-bit breakin at the Watergate.

    Clinton went down 'cause he lied about somebody going down on him.

    Every single word out of Dubya's mouth is a lie and yet he could seemingly club puppies on the Whitehouse lawn in front of God and everybody and the MSM would smile and tell us he's making us safe. Pelosi and Reid would agree and we'd move on to Paris Hilton's next drunken rampage. I just don't understand how or why.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:36:37 AM PST

  •  I remember Dilawar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theyrereal

    http://www.cbc.ca/...

    The other was a 21 or 22-year-old taxi driver named Diliwar who really happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And he was a young man who had just begun to drive a taxi. He'd been a farmer most of his life in a tiny village in central Afghanistan and he picked up some passengers at the market and was driving them past an American military outpost when they were stopped by Afghan militia men.

    The same was said about Diliwar, but Diliwar was a guy who weighed 125 pounds. He was a tiny, frail-looking man whose family described him as an extremely peaceful man. I think he was very frightened to be suddenly held in an American prison surrounded by people who didn't speak his language and often with a hood over his head and chained to the ceiling. He was described by other prisoners as having been very frightened by this treatment of having a hood over his head and being chained to the ceiling. So, it may be that some of his resistance had to do with fear.

    BUT the story all of this is covering up is the NIE. Our intelligence services and a military leadership  refuse to let lies about Iran go forward. It, and Cheney's role in War Fraud part2, is being buried.

    America does not need two Republican parties.

    by Carbide Bit on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:16:57 AM PST

  •  Late Weighing In (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theyrereal, netguyct

    I'm glad somebody is pointing out this Rovian distraction.

    This is an awful case of framing the discussion to prevent the truth from coming out.

    We need to post the truth (wherever we can find it) until our fingers fall off.

    When it rains it rains the same Upon the just and unjust fella But more upon the just, because The unjust steals the just's umbrella.

    by JG in MD on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:18:18 AM PST

  •  Stupid, stupid, stupid (0+ / 0-)

    Here's what they are doing, Karl Rove's favorite tactic:  Holding up a pretty shining object, while they run out the back door with the really dirty shit.

    Look, you can say this about anything -- and you probably do: that any evil thing that is revealed about the Bush Administration is a "distraction" from the real (but unknown, and unproved) evil which we should all be haring after instead.

    But who's really doing the distracting?

    Do you believe that provable instances of corruption, malfeasance, gross incompetence -- and torture -- are "distractions"?  Do murderers try to "distract" the police by pointing out that they've also committed rape, arson, and armed robbery?

    Of course not.  But a not-too-clever person might just try to distract us from the rape, arson, and armed robbery by falsely claiming that they are "distractions".

    Yeah, there's distraction going on.  But it's being engaged in by the people who want us to think that provable crimes by the Bush administration are "distractions".

    •  Hm, well here's an analogy (0+ / 0-)

      I see your point but I think you're completely wrong.  

      See, these guys are in damage control mode.  They're basically like a gang of criminals trying to run off with the loot so as to not get caught.  As the cops close in, they throw one of their team "under a bus" so as to disract the cops so they can get away.  It works.  The cops all converge on the one betrayed guy and the rest of them get away.  

  •  I hesitate posting this, but (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cosette, theyrereal, kurt

    I know two guys that were interrogators in Viet Nam.

    They won't talk about their experience.

    period.

    They're both brilliant linguists.  One is kinda screwed up mentally and emotionally, and admits as much.  I never had that kind of conversation with the second guy.

    I intend to pry, but I respect their boundaries.

    This all fuels my extreme suspicion that there is a huge bait-n-switch, a huge distraction scheme going on.

    As I mused upthread, it could be to soften the next president or the populace into guaranteeing the current administration won't be handed over for war crimes trials, as might be required by law.

    What about NO F!#%ING TORTURE do you NOT UNDERSTAND?

    by netguyct on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:52:15 AM PST

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