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It is written on Edwards website, "Over time, the system may evolve toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan."

Edwards provides no details regarding the public portion of his plan making this statement specious.  Edwards plan as well as the health care plans of Clinton and Obama are basically health INSURANCE plans.  All three candidates were asked at the AARP debate whether they supported a single payer solution.  All the candidates answered no.

The main premise of Sicko is that the single payer health systems like the ones in Canada, England, France and Cuba are better for the people than the private insurance health care system of the United States.  Today there will be a debate of the Democratic candidates and not one candidate will be advocating for single payer health care.

Where is the outrage?

penguinsong's diary :: Permalink  

Originally posted to penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:14 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  It is an excellent plan. (12+ / 0-)

    And it can lead to single payer.

    You attacks on progressives, however, lead nowhere at all.  

    "The truth is the system in Washington is corrupt." John Edwards

    by TomP on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:15:57 AM PST

    •  Elizabeth Edwards. (12+ / 0-)

      This weekend I had the opportunity to join a few fellow bloggers and interview Elizabeth Edwards.

      I opted to ask Elizabeth about the differences between single payer and John's plan and she immediately emphasized that they really were not that far apart.

      "They are not that different... And honestly single payer is not going to pass in this country. It is not going to happen. We may get to single payer, but we are not going to jump to single payer.

      "John is in favor of bold moves about a lot of things, but we have to be realistic and the point is to get people covered. So, John's program allows private insurers, if they bid and are willing to follow a pretty stringent set of rules to participate. But he also has a government option."

      After a bit of back and forth, Elizabeth explicitly presented the Edwards plan as a transitional piece of legislation between the current system and single payer.

      "It's got the specificity, got the capacity to pass and is actually is probably our most logical path for us to take, if we are ever going to get to single payer."

      The interview was the first time that I have seen a campaign argue along these lines. The country is not in a place to pass single payer right now. First people need to see that the government can provide affordable, more efficient health care, before there is support for a truly universal governmental program. It is fascinating to see this kind of progressive policy argument be made.

      Working Californians: Elizabeth Edwards: Plan is Path to Single Payer

      "The truth is the system in Washington is corrupt." John Edwards

      by TomP on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:20:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What is the government option? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        o the umanity

        How can they make claims about a government option without providing any details at all?

        Strength through Peace

        by penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:22:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The PDF of the plan is 7 pages (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jct, noweasels, MBNYC, Newzie, TomP, lenzy1000

          http://www.johnedwards.com/...

          It's just false to say there are no details.

          •  Cite details of the government option please (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            o the umanity

            Strength through Peace

            by penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:32:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  cite the pay out (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP, lenzy1000

              you are willing to make for buying up private insurance assets. how much?

              I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

              by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:34:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's not the question (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                penguinsong

                the question is "Where are the details of the government option".

                Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:36:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  There is a nasty underbelly... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ronlib

                  ...to this. And Kucinich is an overly bitter figurehead.

                  Compromise on this basis may of course prove advantageous - no one knew that better than Nye Bevan. The story of his negotiations with the doctors - his flexibility, his submission to some demands, his firm rejection of others - is a fascinating reflection of the story of 1911, and Lloyd George's similar battles when introducing the National Health Insurance Act. But the act of compromise must be recognised as such, and not be construed as a surrender of the principle.

                  Kucinich is inflexible and definitely not a man to bring to negotiations about healthcare. Nothing presented by yourself indicates you have an idea of the history surrounding such negotiations.

                  I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                  by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:00:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There is a nasty inability (0+ / 0-)

                    for you to directly answer the actual question put to you. Why is that?

                    The question was:

                    "Where are the details of the government option".

                    Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                    by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:06:20 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I did upthread. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ronlib

                      There will be a publically administed plan that will be cheaper than any commercially available plan. People will have the option to keep more expensive private care, or opt into the cheaper publically administered one.  

                      It's very simple. Most people would spend more money if they can spend less?

                      within a few years the private comapnies will be begging for a buy out at a fraction of their former value before the introduction of the publically administered plan.

                      I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                      by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:15:56 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Why don't YOU read the plan? (0+ / 0-)
              You clearly don't want a discussion, just to push your viewpoint and your attack.

              We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

              by anastasia p on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:11:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What's wrong with asking that someone (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                penguinsong

                point the relevant sections out, for the purpose of this discussion?

                Clearly, it is something that should be a part of the diary, but quoting 7 pages of PDF probably isn't permissible.

                That's what discussion is for.

                Does anyone here have the ability to point out the relevant text of this seven page document, that would answer the question "What are the details of the government option" in regard to the statement "Over time, the system may evolve toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan"?

                Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:18:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  you have to answer a question (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, lenzy1000

          How much do you estimate buying out the insurance industry will cost?

          I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

          by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:34:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You assume it needs to be bought out (0+ / 0-)

            and won't be able to adapt, like other businesses have to, when great changes come along.

            Your assumption seems to be based on the fact that they couldn't do that. How do you know?

            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:37:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  See what happened with the NHS. (0+ / 0-)

              Private insurance and the BMA had to be bought out. That's a legal reality.  There's no way around it.  A government can't muscle in on an industry and not compensate private owners.  I'm all for it. But you are dodging that reality.

              I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

              by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:41:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  links, please (0+ / 0-)

                for those who aren't up-to-speed on NHS and BMA.

                Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:43:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Why bother, you are not listening. (0+ / 0-)

                  and are not prepared to answer a basic question.  It's simple. How much do we pay these corporate owners to walk away from their businesses?

                  Nye Bevan, had to bribe the equivalent of the AMA (BMA) to get them on board with his nationalization plan.  It'll cost a fortune. I'm all for it but you are pretending it wouldn't have to happen.

                  Weaken them now with a little competition and heavy regulation, squeeze their assets til they squeek and then drown them. That's how it'll work best.

                  http://www.time.com/...

                  http://www.sochealth.co.uk/...

                  Kucinich does not measure up to someone like Nye.

                  I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                  by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:54:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Edwards does not explain how his plan will (0+ / 0-)

                    "squeeze" the private insurance companies.  He gives no details of the government portion.  In fact by providing universal coverage, and more government funding, his plan is giving more revenue to private insurance.

                    Strength through Peace

                    by penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:59:13 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Kucinich... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...would have to give trillions to the insurance industry to take their assets. You're being "polly anna" about the task ahead. I asked a simple question...how much are they going to be paid to walk away under HR 676?

                      Who negotitates that deal?  Kucinich? pah.

                      I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                      by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:03:41 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Edwards (0+ / 0-)

                        and his Health Care Plan--along with most of the other candidates--set a mandate that I must buy insurance from insurance companies.

                        What happens to you if you do not buy it?

                        Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                        by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:12:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't know how (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Salo
                        this devolved into a discussion of Kucinich (although I guess with this poster involved, that's the subtext) but I will say that if you want to make single-payer a political impossibility, elect Kucinich president. His rigidly dogmatic my-way-or-the-highway approach would anger so many of the powers that be and stiffe n their spines to the point where it's unlikely we'd see ANY health-care reform, just an acceleration of the currrent disaster, as Kucinich would resist attempts by more moderate Democrats to, for instance, rein in the abuses of insurance companies. It would be a debacle. Believe me, I live in Cleveland I saw it with my own eyes. Being "right" (in a way but not really) on Muny Light meant sacrificing the city entirely, and we are still paying the price. Worst. Mayor. Ever.

                        We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

                        by anastasia p on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:15:44 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  correct. (0+ / 0-)

                          Here is a description of a real socialist appraoching the nature of the founding of the NHS.

                          Compromise on this basis may of course prove advantageous - no one knew that better than Nye Bevan. The story of his negotiations with the doctors - his flexibility, his submission to some demands, his firm rejection of others - is a fascinating reflection of the story of 1911, and Lloyd George's similar battles when introducing the National Health Insurance Act. But the act of compromise must be recognised as such, and not be construed as a surrender of the principle.

                          Kucinich is inflexible.

                          I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                          by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:18:17 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  what happens if (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't buy insurance under Edwards' (or anyone else's) mandate that I must?

                            Can I no longer obtain employment? Drive a car? Send my stepkids to college? Vote?

                            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:20:15 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  do you have a job? (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you have insurance?

                            I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                            by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:23:42 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What happens if (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't buy insurance under Edwards' (or anyone else's) mandate that I must?

                            Answer the question please, with something besides more questions. Surely you know his plan inside out, and can share the details with us...

                            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:32:21 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  when you go to the clinic (0+ / 0-)

                            you are automatically enrolled in a plan.

                            I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                            by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 11:22:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that's not what (0+ / 0-)

                            Edwards own website says:

                            The Edwards Plan achieves universal coverage by:

                               * Requiring businesses and other employers to either cover their employees or help finance their health insurance.
                               * Making insurance affordable by creating new tax credits, expanding Medicaid and SCHIP, reforming insurance laws, and taking innovative steps to contain health care costs.
                               * Creating regional "Health Care Markets" to let every American share the bargaining power to purchase an affordable, high-quality health plan, increase choices among insurance plans, and cut costs for businesses offering insurance.
                               * Once these steps have been taken, requiring all American residents to get insurance.

                            You still haven't answered what I'll be excluded from if I don't follow this mandate. Obviously, already, I couldn't get care in a clinic--that's a no-brainer, it happens today!

                            What else will I be excluded from?

                            If I don't buy auto insurance, I can't register my car to make it legal to drive, even if the car is brand-new. So what will I be excluded from if I don't sign on that dotted line in the clinic for an "Edwards Health Insurance Plan"? The right to vote? The right to work?

                            If your guy's plan is so great, he should be able to answer such a simple question about it.

                            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 11:56:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the silence is deafening, innit? (0+ / 0-)

                            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:56:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well do you buy Private insurance right now? (0+ / 0-)

                            If you do are you satisfied with it?  If you are satisfied, would you want to have it arbirarily taken it away?

                            I favour complete nationalization of all medical assets in the US. Pure socialism.  I do howvere recognize that symultaneously proposing a bill that takes away coverage people already have, while talking about a tax bill that goes into the pockets of companies that get bought out by the government.

                            It might be too disorientating for the public to bear.

                            I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                            by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 11:21:52 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not pretending anything (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm asking you to explain yourself and your continued insistence that the mess we have now would have to somehow be "bought out".

                    But your continual spin brings up a very key point:

                    Nye Bevan, had to bribe the equivalent of the AMA (BMA) to get them on board with his nationalization plan.

                    In other words, there's not enough money to bribe the American Health Insurance industry to go with any plan that...what, takes back some of the enormous power that our Government has given them?

                    And oh, my stars and bars, aren't the vast majority of them in favor of Edwards' plan?

                    Very, very telling. Nice work, spin-boy...

                    Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                    by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:03:54 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not spin (0+ / 0-)

                      hahaha. It's a well known story. See the links.

                      My sig quotes the founder of the NHS.  He concluded he needed to pay off the medical industry to walk away so that nationalization could take place.

                      Indeed Lloyd George had to set up an interim plan  that blended public and priavte which is very similar to Edwards plan that Bevan later completed with complete nationalization.

                      where is the spin?  It's history. All recorded and agreed upon.

                      Compromise on this basis may of course prove advantageous - no one knew that better than Nye Bevan. The story of his negotiations with the doctors - his flexibility, his submission to some demands, his firm rejection of others - is a fascinating reflection of the story of 1911, and Lloyd George's similar battles when introducing the National Health Insurance Act. But the act of compromise must be recognised as such, and not be construed as a surrender of the principle.

                      This is a real socialist speaking about how things are really done.

                      I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                      by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:11:50 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, pity that Kucinich (0+ / 0-)

                        isn't the subject of this diary, isn't it?

                        All you have to offer so far is how Kucinich's plan won't work. You have nothing to show how Edwards' plan WILL.

                        Keep spinning away from the questions put to you, Salo. I'm sure it keeps your chops sharp...

                        Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                        by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:22:32 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, at least (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        philgoblue, noweasels, TomP

        this time around, penguinscream isn't posting any pictures of the house.

        "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

        by MBNYC on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:25:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I wouldn't call it an *excellent* plan... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anna, TracieLynn, jct, MBNYC, ronlib

      ...although I do think it's a much better plan than Clinton's or Obama's. I do think that it will inevitably lead to single payer if implemented properly, which could make the plan a nice little stalking horse for a better solution. Nonetheless, it irks me that it's seen as necessary to go through this convoluted interim step to end up where we should be starting in the first place.

      May God help me resist the temptation to hold Barack Obama's supporters against him.

      by phenry on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:22:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  what happens if (0+ / 0-)

      I don't buy insurance under this plan?

      Does that mean I can no longer work in this country?

      A legitimate question--I can't register my car unless I have auto-insurance.  

      Don't get me wrong--I like Edwards plan except for that last little detail: "All Americans will be required to buy insurance".

      No. Sorry. Requiring that I give more money to heartless murderers-by-spreadsheet is not going to win my vote. Lose that requirement, though, and I might consider voting for Edwards.

      Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

      by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:53:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's no "outrage" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LaEscapee
      because there's nothing to be outraged about. It's clear from the length and shallowness of this diary and its unsupported statements, that you need to do a lot more research before slamming Edwards -- or anyone's -- health-care plan. Absolutely single-payer is preferable, but to institute it takes strategy. You just cannot wave a wand and go "Oh look, now we have universal single-payer," no matter how deluded Dennis Kucinich may be. A lot of people hear have analyzed the variuos plans in depth, but this adds nothing to the discussion, a very important discussion.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:09:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Read it for Yourself Folks (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jct, noweasels, Newzie, TomP, 123Mary123, lenzy1000

    http://www.johnedwards.com/...

    Choice between Public and Private Insurers: Health Care Markets will offer a choice between private insurers and a public insurance plan modeled after Medicare, but separate and apart from it. Families and individuals will choose the plan that works best for them. This American solution
    will reward the sector that offers the best care at the best price. Over time, the system may evolve
    toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan
    .

    •  modeled after medicare? (0+ / 0-)

      What the hell does that mean?

      Strength through Peace

      by penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:24:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you are a troll. (0+ / 0-)

        Prolly a sockpuppet. Obama and Clinton are the Front runners not Edwards. There is no other explaination for the Edwards stalking you have exhibited.

        You don't even appear to understand the financial and legal implications of buying out the insurance industry. It's just an opportunistic hit on you r part. You have to explain how Single Payer goes forward.

        I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

        by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:32:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again, why assume (0+ / 0-)

          that the industry would need to be "bought out"?

          The whole problem I have with Edwards'--and just about everyone else's--plan is that it requires you to buy insurance.

          Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

          by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:39:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Because that's not the idea. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    philgoblue, Salo

    It's entirely sensible to leave the development of single-payer to actual public experience of and support for it in practice, as long as in the interim, everyone has guaranteed access to healthcare.

    Your candidate, Dennis Kucinich, sees it otherwise. Fine. Let him demonstrate how exactly, with which political support, which legal authority, he will turn the entire U.S. healthcare sector from a public/private, mainly profit-oriented, decentralized and self-regulated system into a centrally directed and financed not-for-profit public service.

    "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

    by MBNYC on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:24:16 AM PST

    •  It would require trillions in bribes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      years of court battles and a final eminent domain purchase that would break the bank.

      Better to squeeze the insurance industry first, then straggling it in a more wizzened future form.

      I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

      by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:29:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Salo

        because if I read the Kucinich "plan" right, it logically requires expropriation of the entire healthcare industry. And since that couldn't be done without compensation, yeah, that might prove expensive.

        Just another example of why I refuse to support Dennis Kucinich.

        "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

        by MBNYC on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:33:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Penguinsong is a troll. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MBNYC, Newzie

          I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

          by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:35:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Salo is a concern troll (0+ / 0-)

            Woo, let's just call each other names.

            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:42:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I had a simple question that (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MBNYC, lenzy1000

              you were not prepared to answer. How much is the buy out?  Believe me, i'm all for the buy out. Shit ---buy the fucking hospitals as well. Completely nationalize the entire sector. But please tell me how much are you willing to pay these owners to go away?  if you pay enough they will go away...but how much?

              I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

              by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:46:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You had a simple question by the diarist (0+ / 0-)

                that you have yet to answer, as well as a couple from me. You're hardly in any position to demand that anyone answer your questions.

                Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:55:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  setting up a cheaper (0+ / 0-)

                  public plan that a worker can buy into will squeeze the profit margin of private companies. Stringent regulation of insurance company responsibilities will further reduce profit margins.

                  At that point those companies will ask to be bailed out on a voluntary basis at a fraction of their former value. Gradually the private market goes out of business.

                  jumping to nationalization will require a massive multi trillion dollar buy out.

                  I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

                  by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:07:15 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The word CAN is not the same as the word MUST (0+ / 0-)

                    public plan that a worker can buy into will squeeze the profit margin of private companies. Stringent regulation of insurance company responsibilities will further reduce profit margins

                    Edwards' plan says I MUST buy into...something.

                    How and what will he do to "regulate the insurance companies?"

                    Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                    by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:14:29 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Why is he a troll? (0+ / 0-)
            I assumed he was merely a Kucinich Kool-Aid drinker which is hard to justify but is not quite the same as being a troll.

            We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

            by anastasia p on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:19:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Oh Good G-d. Now we're demanding outrage? (5+ / 0-)

    I'm sick and tired of all the outrage. This site has been turned into one big outrage megaphone. It seems nothing is worth mentioning, unless it is accompanied by outrage.

    I've written extensively about this. The outrage is deafening. It's time to hit the mute button on outrage, so we can hear and discuss issues in a reasonable manner. It's really gone way too far when posters now insist on and seek out outrage. How about an actual discussion of the issue, instead?

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:24:18 AM PST

    •  I am outraged (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rolfyboy6, TracieLynn, Salo, o the umanity

      by your comment :-D

      /snark

      "People who speak in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." ~- Jack Nicholson

      by MBNYC on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:26:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Can we be outraged that there is no discussion of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      o the umanity

      the issues illustrated in Sicko in this presidential primary?

      Strength through Peace

      by penguinsong on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:26:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Outrage gets tuned out (0+ / 0-)

        It blends into the great noise of all the other outrage out there. It just looks ridiculous, and most people tune it out. Approach people with real questions and real arguments. Just stop insiting you're outraged. No one has time for all the outrages, from Bill Shaheen to health care...how can you tell which ones are serious?

        I agree that health insurance is the problem, not the solution. I think we need to make that case, as often as possible. But, if we want to be heard by the serious people, we need to be serious, not outraged.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:33:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I guess... (0+ / 0-)

        It's just that a lot of us know that trumpeting it now is counter-productive.  This is a fight for after we win the significant Congressional and Senate majorities required to actually do the real fight for universal health care.  We haven't even had the policy debate over forms of universal care.  Sadly, this is one fight to have not too far out in front of the general electorate's understanding.  This is a strategic call.  And yeah, if I had a magic wand we'd have Universal Health Care right now.  I've got the outrage, I've also got the directedness to want to win.

      •  Marry a British girl/boy... (0+ / 0-)

        ...and settle down there. They have the NHS. The NHS required a massive buy out of the private insurance industry and BMA to be implimented.

        I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

        by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:44:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You said it, brother (0+ / 0-)
      I'm really tired of being castigated for not being "outraged" by someone else's pet issue. I have my priority concerns and I work on them, but I don't jump up and down attacking others for not being sufficiently "outraged" by them. It's offensive to me when people do this because I'm not even sure exactly what I am supposed to do to demonstrate I am "outraged" enough for the complainant, nor am I clear why I should want to demonstrate this. As you suggest, FischFry, "outrage"  is an ineffective mechanism for change, no matter how self-righteous it may make someone feel.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:23:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Single Payer would require... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolfyboy6

    ...trillions in public buy outs of Private Health Insurance assets.

    talk about a giveaway to thw insurance industry!

    Better to squeeze them into bankruptcy first then hold a fire sale.

    I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

    by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:28:06 AM PST

    •  ease up on the kool-aid, please (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      neroden, o the umanity

      Single payer would require public buyout of trillions of dollars of private health insurance assets?

      Where do you get that idea from? (show me a link to a candidates website that says this) Did Medicare or Medicaid buy similar insurance company assets when they came into being?  You're from the UK, is that what was done there?  

      And even if I allow your laughable premise about required buyouts, where do you get the notion that health insurance companies have trillions of dollars in assets?  Hell, their total stock valuation is less than "trillions" - certainly not their hard assets.  All healthcare spending for the entire US is only about $2T per year out of $16T. http://www.nchc.org/... Like to exaggerate much?

      You and MBNYC should know that single payer does not mean that the US government would buy everything related to healthcare and make it owned by Uncle Sam. The model you should be arguing is Medicare, not the old Soviet Union.  GE would still have a medical division making equipment under a single payer system, no one is saying the government would be required to purchase them.  The German government doesn't own the medical equipment division of Siemens, yet they have single payer.  Nor does single payer mean that the US government would buy every single hospital (and equipment) in the US, along with making every doctor/nurse/administrator a federal employee.

      What you're really arguing for is the old Republican concept that anything the US government does that hurts private industry must be reimbursed. That's your prerogative, if you chose to think that way.

      Making the claim that single payer would require trillions in payments to private insurers is - technically speaking - pulling "facts" out of your ass.

  •  Yes, but why stop with Edwards? (0+ / 0-)

    Neither Hillary nor Obama have plans that will lead to single-payer either.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:29:24 AM PST

  •  public is better than private on this issue (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TracieLynn

    According to John Conyers if we used the bulk purchasing power of a single payer system we could save $100 billion a year on drugs and medical supplies. If we had single payer we'd also save $300 billion in overhead.

    So if we can use all public systems (SCHIP, medicare, medicaid, John's program) and use them for bulk purchases, combined with the lower overhead and public may be 20%+ cheaper than private insurance. So people will switch to private insurance and hopefully we will have single payer.

    But again, right now, you are not going to get congress to agree to the trillion dollar tax hike necessary to implement single payer. Its just not going to happen. Do you think the GOP will allow a 3.3% payroll tax w/o a fight or without them using it as ammunition to take back congress in 2010?

    http://www.house.gov/...

    New Sources of Revenue Under H.R. 676 = $1,259 billion

    Payroll Tax (3.3% additional on employer/employee)
    $538 billion 9

    Stock Transfer Tax (0.25% on seller and buyer)
    $150 billion 10

    Reduce Corporate Welfare
    $100 billion 11

    Reverse 2001 and 2002 Tax Cuts
    $251 billion 12

    Tax Surcharge: 5% on Richest 5% of Taxpayers; 10% on Richest 1%
    $200 billion 13

    Total New Revenue
    $1,259 billion 14

    •  Why won't we get Congress to agree? (0+ / 0-)

      Are you expecting we'll lose the Congress in 2008? Or that a Democratic president wouldn't be able to persuade a Democratic Congress in 2009 to pass single-payer?

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:30:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm saying a trillion tax hike will backfire (0+ / 0-)

        The public have been indoctrinated with years of 'taxes r bad, taxes r bad, taxes r bad' propaganda. Naturally there are consequences to this attitude

        1. The middle class are paying more for services like education, daycare, retirement pensions or healthcare (since taxes are progressive but private payments are not the middle class pay for more education, daycare, retirement funding & healthcare under private systems).

        For example, for about 7% of income a family of 4 has K-12 and heavily subsidized college for their kids. No private system would offer that for 7% of income. For 1.45% of income you get healthcare in retirement.

        1. Collapse of infrastructure. Bridges collapse. FEMA is incompetent. Levees fail. The American Society of Civil Engineers gives our infrastructure a "D"

        http://www.asce.org/...

        I don't like it, but it is reality. Asking the dems to pass HR 676 and the trillion dollar tax hike it requires in 2009 and we might as well just hand congress back to the GOP in 2010 on a silver platter.

        Look at the outrage vetoing SCHIP causes progressives. Imagine that outrage x3 and that is how outraged the GOP will be if HR 676 is passed. They'll get motivated to take congress back and cancel it.

        •  I completely disagree (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Juche

          Polls show that Americans WILL support taxes to provide affordable, comprehensive health care. From an October Bloomberg Poll:

          A majority of Americans also say they would tolerate higher taxes to help pay for universal health care, an idea that all the leading Democratic hopefuls have championed. And about two in three say they haven't benefited from the tax cuts President George W. Bush pushed through Congress during his first term.

          ``A lot of the air has gone out of the tax-cut movement balloon,'' said Stuart Rothenberg, publisher of the nonpartisan Rothenberg Political Report in Washington. ``Republican candidates who think that tax cuts are the way to swing this election may be engaging in some wishful thinking.''

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:41:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eugene

            I'd love to be wrong on this issue. HR 676 will save $400 billion, save small businesses, cover everyone and save middle class families about $5000+ each on healthcare (because costs will be spread in payroll taxes and progressive taxes).

            Keep pointing that out to overcome the anti-tax propaganda of the last 20 years and HR 676 could be reality.

      •  get congress to agree. (0+ / 0-)

        And that's good. Kucinich is such a great parliamentarian  should have that billl sitting there ready for Senate ratification.

        But he ain't passed it. Edwards is not holding it up in Committee.  Pelosi is holding it up.

        Now How much is the insurance buy out going to cost?  

        I will make them have it. I will stuff their mouths with Gold!--Aneurin Bevan (on the NHS)

        by Salo on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:39:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What do you mean, buyout? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          o the umanity

          What exactly do we have to buy out?

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:41:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eugene

            still waiting for the actual details on that myself.

            What I want to know is, how is requiring me to buy insurance going to affect me in other ways? I am old enough to remember "no fault auto insurance". Once we had that in place, if I didn't buy insurance, I couldn't register my car.

            So--if I don't buy health insurance under the Edwards plan, what else will I not be able to do anymore: Work? Send my stepkids to college? Vote?

            We need change to this mess we have in place now, but demanding that I go to the very people who screwed things up in the first place, and mandate that I give them even more money isn't quite the way to go, IMO.

            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:49:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              o the umanity

              This summer I found that insurance on the second car we had was costing too much money, and that a cheaper rate couldn't be found.

              So what did I do?

              I sold the car.

              What do I do if I can't afford the health insurance mandate? Break the law? Declare myself legally dead?

              ("That's a start," one of the Hillary shills told me a few days back when I made the "legally dead" point. Nice bunch of people they are.)

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

              by eugene on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:55:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Neither does Hillary or Obamas (0+ / 0-)

    the only one who says single payer health care is Kucinich....but some of you think he "looks funny" or that he sees "little green men" just because he saw an unidentified flying object...BFD...I'll bet a lot of you have seen something you couldn't identify...I know I have..

  •  Why (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaEscapee

    Attack the one candidate who will fight insurance companies? It is self defeating!!

    Our country is in danger, not just from foreign enemies, but from our own misguided policies- RFK

    by RDemocrat on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:21:51 AM PST

    •  Because the other candidates (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      penguinsong

      want to keep getting those campaign endorsements/$$ from the Insurance/Pharma Industry?

      You heard Salo. What he quotes upthread about "buyouts" is another word for bribery. It says, essentially, that in order for our government to get out of the mess we're in, in regard to health care, they'd have to bribe their way out of it. I'll bet there isn't enough money in our Treasury to do that.

      So in order to keep the "death by spreadsheet" crowd happy, to have an 'acceptable' plan means We The People HAVE TO buy insurance. Looks like it's the only way these heartless bastards will accept playing ball with Congress.

      Let's say Edwards decided to back down from the "mandate" that you and I must buy insurance from the insurance companies. Do you really think he'd still get their endorsements? Same with the other candidates.

      Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

      by o the umanity on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:30:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What, Kucinich isn't in the debate? (0+ / 0-)

    "Today there will be a debate of the Democratic candidates and not one candidate will be advocating for single payer health care."

    Sad.

    -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

    by neroden on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:49:31 AM PST

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