Open Thread

Just a thought --

You know all those vetoes that Bush is threatening (60 or 70 at this point)? Well, make him veto. Every single time.

It'll make it much easier to create contrasts with Republicans.

"You want to end the war? Health care for the children of working families? A government that doesn't torture or spy on you? All that other good stuff that Bush keeps vetoing? Well you know what to do."

Instead, Democrats cave to the GOP at the mere threat of a veto, hence becoming complicit in all the warmed over crap Congress is dishing to the American people. People don't know that Republicans are obstructing the Democratic agenda. They just now that Congress has failed to deliver on the promises of the 2006 campaign season.

There's a reason Congress is as unpopular as it is, and it isn't because of all the wonderful things it has accomplished.

This is an open thread -- kos

Recommended diaries at  8 am, Friday, Dec 14, 2007
:

Sen. Reid is Setting Us Up on FISA        by BooMan23    Damn John Edwards, THAT was impressive!        by Universal    F Rating For Hannity/Ollie Scam Concerts        by davefromqueens    The Diary Cycle on D-Kos        by LithiumCola    Can John Edwards Win the General?        by leisure    UPDATE: The Senate Needs To Hear My Husband's Story        by Chacounne    Iowa Voters Declare John Edwards the Winner of the DMR Debate!        by NCDem Amy    Get It Straight: The Dems DO Know What They're Doing        by thereisnospoon

•  Hey, where is everybody?

  by funluvn1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:26:27 AM PDT

  •  I'm right here

    slow, but not too slow.

    by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:28:27 AM PDT

    •  I knew you would get here.

      It's about time   ;-)

      by funluvn1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:26 AM PDT

      •  A friend sent me this

        THE GEORGE W. BUSH LIBRARY:

        The Alberto Gonzales Room - Where you can't remember any of the exhibits.

        The Hurricane Katrina Room - It's still under construction.

        The Texas Air National Guard Room - Where you don't have to even show up.

        The Walter Reed Hospital Room - Where they don't let you in.

        The Guantanamo Bay Room - Where they don't let you out.

        The Weapons of Mass Destruction Room - Nobody has been able to find it.

        The K-Street Project Gift Shop - Where you can buy an election, or, if no one cares, steal one.

        Snack Bar - We're having problems with Diebold electronic ordering machine.  No matter what you order, it keeps coming up Bush BBQ.  

        The Men's Room - With special stalls for people with wide stances and mid-level dividers in case you needed to reach-around.

        The Loyalty Wing - Where you can smear your friends or former friends.  A tour favorite is the Character Assasination Room where you can eavesdrop on real people, start a whispering campaign, announce they are un-American, get them fired, and sic the IRS on them.

        The War in Iraq Room - After you complete your first tour of the room, you are forced on a second and third and fourth and fifth tours of the room.

        by DCDemocrat on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:42:37 AM PDT

        •  That is tragicly hilarious!

          Unfortunately, a few chuckles can't diguise the fact that under Pathetic Pelosi and the rest of the filures in the Democratic Congressional leadership, they still roll over and play dead at the whim of the Chump in Chief.

          by Randall Sherman on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:48:45 AM PDT

  •  I'm still in bed

    there's no exam today

    ...

    :(

    by danthrax on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:08 AM PDT

    •  Why is that a bad thing? n/t

      by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:44 AM PDT

      •  in my dream :( i'm in the library

        getting some last minute studying in.

        just thinking of where i'd rather be.

        by danthrax on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:54:56 AM PDT

    •  Isn't wireless a wonderful thing!

      Blogging in bed.

      by funluvn1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:30:02 AM PDT

      •  i shouldn't even be awake yet

        and i'm in the library :P

        i've been up for almost 3 hours. i should really be asleep for 2 more.

        by danthrax on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:55:47 AM PDT

    •  How very . . .

      . . . Proust.

      BenGoshi
      __________________________________________________

      by BenGoshi on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:49:48 AM PDT

  •  it is friday

    Slept in today.

    by baffled on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:42:27 AM PDT

  •  Sorry...

    ...was out taking care of that white stuff in the driveway..

    by Stymnus on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:54:27 AM PDT

    •  What? The CIA plane crashed in your yard? :) nt

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:34:19 AM PDT

      •  Sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! :) n/t

        by Stymnus on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:18:48 PM PDT

  •  I'm out,

    But I'll be back later.

    by manwithnoname on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:16:09 AM PDT

•  trying to find our sanity nt

  by ChicagoStudent on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:27:49 AM PDT

  •  Not surprising right now.

    Sanity is hard to keep with all the silliness going on in Congress.

    by funluvn1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:01 AM PDT

    •  Worse than silly

      You are being much too kind.

      by Heart of the Rockies on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:16:21 AM PDT

•  Last night's pictures

  More light drawings:

  

  | f/9.0 | exposure: 3m, 10s | ISO: 100 | 10mm |

  

  | f/9.0 | exposure: 4m, 40s | ISO: 100 | 10mm |

  

  | f/14.0 | exposure: 3m, 53s | ISO: 100 | 10mm |

  I don't like these quite as much as last night's but I still like them.

  by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:28:05 AM PDT

  •  Try a moving shot with a figure clear in the

    foreground.

    That one is fun to do.

    ;)

    :::::::

    by nowheredesign on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:32:57 AM PDT

    •  Done it, but...

      it's really hard to get anyone to stay still for 4 minutes for the camera, especially in a blizzard.

      by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:33:48 AM PDT

      •  lol!

        If they love you, they will. Or, at least that's a good way to frame it.

        :)

        ::::::

        by nowheredesign on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:36:49 AM PDT

        •  Oh yeah. That works

          "if you love me, you're willing to lose a toe for my art."

          That would get me smacked :)

          by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:39:14 AM PDT

          •  That's what..

            ...a good set of galoshes is for.

            My feet stayed toasty warm this morning as I shovelled out.

            by Stymnus on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:43:50 AM PDT

            •  Galoshes

              Haven't heard that word in years.  Love it.

              The word Galoshes might be used interchangeably with boot, especially a rubberized boot. Properly speaking, however, a galosh is an overshoe made of a weatherproof material to protect a more vulnerable shoe underneath and keep the foot warm and dry.

              The Free Dictionary

              by Heart of the Rockies on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:20:07 AM PDT

              •  Three or four buckle galosher? do you snap them

                by drmah on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:45:58 AM PDT

      •  a steel neckbrace

        worked for Daguerre.

        by Christopher Walker on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 12:12:12 PM PDT

  •  RRRRRrrrrrrraooo

    You gotta do a tongue trill to get what I mean with all those r's. Helps if you speak enough Spanish.

    Jewel-ly... What is your camera smoking? I mean, picture number 2, the being has a tail, not to mention the ever present aura.

    Oh, the snow...cool!!! And here I am stuck in Japan, not high enough (tee hee, unlike your camera) or north enough to ever have snow like that.

    Thanks for les images...

    by PoPEar on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:37:23 AM PDT

    •  The "aura," by the way...

      is made by light sabers.

      In that pic, I was moving around, so the part that looks like a tail is actually my leg, in a different position.

      It can be fairly unpredictable figuring out how these photos will work.

      by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:40:19 AM PDT

•  Perhaps I'm Dim

  But, I can't lend any understanding to myself on why they do it.

  I've been trying to figure it out all year.

  ::::::

  by nowheredesign on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:30 AM PDT

  •  'Cos they have this stupid idea....

    ...that they have to have to actually pass bills into law to bee seen as "effective", when they only really need to pass bills.  If the president vetoes them, the onus is on him, not congress...

    A congress that passes 50 vetoed bills would still be viewed as effective, especially when dealing with an unreasonable president...

    But our morons in congress can't see that....

    Thanks,

    Mike

    by LordMike on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:57:29 AM PDT

    •  They HAVE passed bills

      A bill with troop deadlines?  Vetoed.

      SCHIP?  Vetoed.  

      by The Truffle on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:19:40 AM PDT

      •  I know, but they could do much more...

        ...but, they don't want to be seen as "ineffective"...

        It's crazy...

        If I was part of the Democratic leadership, I'd be sending as many bills as I could to Bush's desk...  and I wouldn't care what he did with them, I'd send them again and again.

        Thanks,

        Mike

        by LordMike on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:31:43 AM PDT

        •  This is sooo right. Make the rethugs

          defend their leader's vetoes and see how far it gets them in the general...

          by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:40:44 AM PDT

•  Completely agree -- make them veto

  By caving the way they do, the Dems are showing they have no principles and are weak -- thus validating everything the Republicans say about them.  Pathetic really.

  Get a spine!

  by Wintermute on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:33 AM PDT

  •  and make them actually filibuster

    We need to educate America about who is throwing sand in the gears.  Everyday we should invite more evidence of Republican obstruction.

    by crystal eyes on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:44:36 AM PDT

  •  What matters is 2008. Patience, kiddos...

    The gentleman's agreement to let things slide on the 60-vote courtesy standard will disappear in the spring of 2008.

    Then the GOP incumbents will have to filibuster.

    Now, it wouldn't matter. Few are paying attention. Blockage would fall on both parties.

    Come 2008, though, attention will be focused on the individual corgressmen and senators.

    GOP filibusters will cost them a dozen or more seats in the House and half that many in the Senate.

    by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:51:47 AM PDT

    •  We'll have given everthing away by then.

      So what will 2008 change?

      by manwithnoname on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:18:57 AM PDT

      •  If you think BUSH won't ramp it up before electio

        n you're dreaming.

        by drmah on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:51:56 AM PDT

        •  Bush doesn't have a ramp. Or much of anything.

          And the mainstream GOP guys retiring will want to inflict revenge on the BushCo faithful.

          First, get through the important items that Bush has vetoed: stem cells, SCHIP, etc.

          Second, get the idiots to filibuster. They end up losing re-election....

          Never underestimate Reid and Pelosi.

          That is Bush and Rove's big mistake.

          by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:32:35 PM PDT

•  Exactly - Make him veto

  Then show the vote count on every political campaign ad in 2008.

  This is what we have brought forward - this is what they stopped....  Link Bush's hissy fits to each and everyone of the Republicans vote.

  PS - Kos you should have remained "neutral" in your primary decision (at least in public).  Whether you like it or not - you are now a political pundit and at least within the Democratic field should remain neutral until the general.

  by totallynext on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:29:37 AM PDT

  •  Kos isn't allowed an opinion?

    Are you kidding me?

    by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:31:46 AM PDT

    •  Of course he can

      but everything he says or writes will now be considered to be biased.  Remaining neutral has its advantages.  But it's his choice whether to go public with his choices or not.

      by joanneleon on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:12:24 AM PDT

  •  Didn't Kos just say who he'd vote for *now*?

    ... leaving open that he might decide otherwise when the time comes?

    It's not like he joined the Obama campaign, or anything like that. And it wasn't exactly an enthusiastic endorsement, either.

    Besides, if I'm not mistaken, Kos votes in California, and the primaries are already decided anyway by the time they get there, so it doesn't matter who he votes for. Same goes for me as a voter in Ohio.

    That's the beauty of our "democratic" primary systems -- the major-party nominees are chosen in such critical regions as Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. If people elsewhere don't like the choice, well tough.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:39:53 AM PDT

    •  At least he doesn't live in Vermont

      Not only is everything decided by the time of the convention, our delegates are very small in number.

      by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:41:26 AM PDT

    •  Get over it

      Or move to Iowa. What do you want 52 states playing musical chairs. I believe Cub fans should be allowed to throw HR balls back on to the field. Why should they be punished because everybody else copies them. Holding all primaries on the same day would at least be an arguement.

      by ghett on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:45:05 AM PDT

•  Instead of...

  ..."crate contrasts", can't we just "crate the President and ship him off to Gitmo for the rest of his natual life"?

  by Ken in MN on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:30:08 AM PDT

  •  Let him go to Paraguay.

    One day we may all want to visit Cuba. Besides, it wouldn't be fair to the Cubans!

    by Harper on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:48:27 AM PDT

    •  He's actually needed in Paraguay

      Because Dictator-for-Life Stroessner died.

      Empty palaces just go to wrack ruin untenanted.

      by Christopher Walker on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 12:14:01 PM PDT

  •  yeah and, well...

    I sorta thought "crating contrasts" was something you might do for your senior project at art school.

    but thanks Kos, for the art!

    by PoPEar on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:58:11 AM PDT

  •  art school project circa 1985

    crate contrasts: polar life in 35mm boxes

    by PoPEar on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:02:35 AM PDT

    •  Or maybe it is a subliminal plug...

      ...for our new sponsor, Crate & Barrel...

      by Ken in MN on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:53:05 AM PDT

•  Democratic fear

  What I don't get is, why?  Surely, the democrats can understand this logic; they have nothing to gain.  Why are they so bloody afraid?

  by ronnyg on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:32:28 AM PDT

  •  Fear has nothing to do with it!

    The Democratic "Leadership" is complicit in this!

    by Ken in MN on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:33:33 AM PDT

    •  It's "nice guy" syndrome...

      ...Please like me!  If I do your laundry, will you like me then?  If I buy you nice gifts, will you like me then?

      I'll do whatever you want... will you like me, then?

      Thanks,

      Mike

      by LordMike on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:58:38 AM PDT

      •  I think it is much more...

        ...insideous than that.  Call it "I gots ta get paid too!" Syndrome...

        by Ken in MN on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:03:13 AM PDT

    •  There's really no fear

      The truth is the Democratic leadership, elected officials and their political industrial complex are beholding to many of the same financial interests that run Washington and the US govermnent.  The grassroots has very little power... The corporations are laughing at this new netroots thing and figuring ways to take it over...We got a long ways to go if you want to truly take over the Democratic Party...hey didn't Newsweek just bring on KOS...And didn't he just spend weeks on his blog attacking their competion, Time Magazine. It's funny how everyone is so willing to compromise when it comes to money and influence.

      by john from vermont on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:09:52 AM PDT

  •  Not fear: they are cogs in the machine

    Same way employees will goof off if they don't have to work, our elected reps figure there is no oversight and no real boss so why work?
    Cocktails and schmoozing beats working any day.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:16:57 AM PDT

•  My day w/ DHS: Department of Hopeless Simpletons

  So as a part of my job I ended up attending a conference to discuss a new set of security regulations with DHS (yes, I'm leaving out what, where and when).  What I learned from this conference is:

  1. DHS is a standard Bush operation; they tell you what they're doing in boilerplate langue and respond to any "facts" you may ask them about with confusion, followed by a repeat of the boilerplate language, even if that doesn't respond to the comment.

  2. They are hopelessly unprofessional, and rather rude.

  3. DHS, despite the mandate to actually reduce overlapping regulations between departments, is really just making more regulations that overlap.

  4. They are morons.

  by SteamPunkX on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:32:30 AM PDT

  •  Why we call meeting-goers "Human Sacrifice."

    The Pentagon ain't always wrong....

    by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:55:47 AM PDT

    •  Actually, I couldn't verify their humanity

      using a turing test, because they kept repeating the same thing.  Didn't check their dna.

      by SteamPunkX on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:59:28 AM PDT

      •  Had in mind that YOU were the sacrifice.

        The bozos running the meeting.... ugh.

        by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:28:08 PM PDT

  •  What else is new?

    Any bureaucrat who is in over his head reverts to garbage speak immediately. It only varies in vocabulary from profession to profession.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:18:45 AM PDT

    •  I have to disagree

      I deal with regulators all the time; this was abominable.

      by SteamPunkX on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:13:13 AM PDT

      •  Yep so do I

        and I am finding that many know less and less and push their weight more and more, so that the last go round, we had people denying what the reg people claimed they had said. Nothing like paranoia in the workplace.  

        by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 09:03:23 AM PDT

  •  why does this not surprise me?

    and who was the moron that named it 'homeland'?

    by binkaroni on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:34:58 AM PDT

    •  Someone who read, but didn't understand

      1984

      by SteamPunkX on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:12:41 AM PDT

•  Can't say it better than that

  and it's not much different than what I said to the DCCC fundraiser who called me and got nothing for his efforts.

  by ksh01 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:32:38 AM PDT

•  Clinton & Obama - and MB for President

  It's been said before: As active Senators and presidential candidates, they could show us some leadership and head up the pushback against Bush/Cheney in Congress, as Chris Dodd has been doing. The fact that the two front-runners are too "cautious" for that makes truly despair for the party and the country.

  I say we start up a blogosphere third-party and run Meteor Blades for President. He'll win; you read it here first.

  by Buckeye Hamburger on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:33:03 AM PDT

•  Damn Right, Markos

  Make him veto.

  Force him to show his ideology and bankrupt morality to the world instead of hiding behind the news media who protects him at all costs.

  Come on, Democrats, will you grow a pair? You owe that to the millions who sent you there and are counting on you to show your ideology and morality. You also owe it to your grandkids, and mine.

  So far, all you have done is pose for the cameras, send strongly worded letters, and kiss the ass of the administration and news media.

  It's a toss up whether I'm more disgusted by Bush or his enablers.

  by Toes on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:33:36 AM PDT

  •  Here here (eom)

    by PoPEar on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:39:30 AM PDT

•  Preachin' to the choir ...

  ... but I love what you wrote.

  Many of us have been urging our congresscritters to do exactly that: make the little fascist use up all the ink in his little veto pen.

  Every time the Dems cave to the threats of appearing to look like troop-starving obstructionists, the terrorists win, and by "terrorists" I mean the Rovian neo-cons and their allies.

  I second your emotion!

  by JBL55 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:34:54 AM PDT

•  what's it going to take to make them work?

  i saw pelosi on the lehrer news hour last night, spinning the majority's inaction on all of the important issues for all she was worth. she would not countenance the idea that the dems have any power worth mentioning.

  the congressional dems keep caving in to those folks that they find scary. perhaps we need to be scarier.

  by joe shikspack on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:36:25 AM PDT

  •  That's it exactly.

    We need to make them more scared of us than they are of the right wing. Primary challenges (serious ones, not protest ones) would be a damned fine start.  I'm willing to bet that a real progressive would have a chance at Pelosi's seat and could force her to the left.

    by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:03 AM PDT

    •  Calling for resignations

      I think it's at least worth a try to organize a call for Reid's and Pelosi's resignations.

      Leaders are elected at the beginning of every year, right?  

      What if there was a huge cry for their resignations, from many corners?

      by joanneleon on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:52:09 AM PDT

      •  i'm in!

        i think that if this site and others in the progressive blogosphere paid as much attention and made as much noise about the the election of congressional leaders as it does about the primaries and general elections - we could make a dent.

        i think it would blindside 'em.

        by joe shikspack on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:02:09 AM PDT

  •  Simon Legree as Congressional Whip?

    and a much tougher job description?

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:20:54 AM PDT

  •  Can only counter with more money.

    And since we don't actually HAVE more money; we get screwed.

    by manwithnoname on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:21:16 AM PDT

•  Greenwald on Congress's unpopularity

  From the Update(scroll down) on Harry Reid and the FISA bill:

  This isn't a case where they are trying to oppose Bush's demands on telecom amnesty and warrantless surveillance powers but are sadly thwarted by a lack of votes. Rather, Harry Reid is doing everything he can to thwart those who are attempting to impede Bush's demands and thus doing everything he can to ensure that the White House is liberated from the prospect of accountability for past lawbreaking and vested with vast, new eavesdropping powers with as little oversight as possible -- just as Mitch McConnell would be doing if he were Majority Leader (though even McConnell might lack the audacity to simply run roughshod over Dodd's hold, as Reid is apparently doing -- while treating Tom Coburn's holds as sacred)

  But go read the whole thing. Greenwald is very convincing.

  by coral on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:37:54 AM PDT

  •  Change in leadership

    I know that there is no silver bullet that will fix all the problems, but a change in leadership would be the closest thing to it right now.

    by joanneleon on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:49:30 AM PDT

  •  wonder what dirt they have on Reid

    And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one wondering.

    by mollyd on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:59:31 AM PDT

    •  One caller this morning to a local show

      recalled the quip by Tom Bodette that Rove had pics of all the Democrats naked in a room with a goat and asked "Exactly how many goats were in that room with Reid?"

      by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:22:29 AM PDT

•  In other words, one doesn't show they're "tough"-

  . . . by caving to blowhards like Mitch McConnell or fools like Bush.

  Why are the things that are so obvious to sentient beings so uncannily difficult to grasp for Capitol Hill Democrats?

  BenGoshi
  __________________________________________________

  by BenGoshi on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:15 AM PDT

  •  Patience, patience, Spring, 2008.

    by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:02:51 AM PDT

    •  What about Spring 2008? nt

      by The Truffle on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:20:43 AM PDT

      •  The tactics change on Cap Hill.

        The GOP gets to carry out real, ugly filibusters.

        Any bush veto gets turned into mud.

        Reid and Pelosi understand timing. And they want to win.

        So getting votes from GOP retirees and other who want to get re-elected is the key.

        Spring 2008 is the right time for overturning just about everything Bush hath wrought.

        by vets74 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:26:50 PM PDT

        •  Where did you hear about this? nt

          by The Truffle on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 08:39:57 AM PDT

•  Balance of Powers

  It bothers me that we haven't been more confrontational.

  I can't see how balance of powers is going to be restored absent confrontation.   Sure confrontation is ugly, and we might lose . . . but if we don't challenge the bully there's no gain for us, no gain for the schoolyard (country).

  by prodigal on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:39:47 AM PDT

•  Right!

  You are exactly right.  As I said before - make the bastard veto!  Keep sending the same bills to him, over and over.  No changes!  

  by BDA in VA on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:41:00 AM PDT

•  nancy is caving on IRaq, Reid is

  caving on FISA. and major League beisbol is caving in on 'roids.

  Mammoth Cave in Kentucky is a fascinating place.
  http://www.nps.gov/...
  Was there last time just a year ago. Still a fascinating place. But nothing like my trip as a kid. My first several visits were early in my yute, which means that we got to go places that have long since been closed off to visitors (protection of rare species, danger of flooding, damage to stalag- tites and mites, and of course, if they allowed Democratic congressional leaders in, the horrific danger of cave-ins.)

  When I look at Nancy and Harry, I think of cave ins of mammoth proportions.

  by agnostic on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:41:02 AM PDT

•  You know what I'd love?

  I'd love one more button between "expand" and "shrink" which says "expand new" which only expands the posts with the "NEW" marker next to them.

  I'm just sayin' :)

  by juliewolf on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:42:33 AM PDT

•  Why is it...

  ..that the same people that decry Iowa's and NH's positions in 'deciding the candidate for everyone' have no problem declaring the winner BEFORE THE FREAKING PRIMARY because of polls taken weeks before?

  Is it because the system is currently seeming to favor your candidate?

  I seriously don't get it.  Wait til people vote/canvass, people.  And you wonder why the media puts so much importance on these two events.  Sheesh.

  by Stymnus on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:42:56 AM PDT

  •  habit?

    convenience?

    not enough caffeine?

    by agnostic on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:49:06 AM PDT

•  "Democratic-controlled Congress"

  Yeah, right!

  by kitebro on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:43:11 AM PDT

  •  GWB has a little model airplane control joystick

    and implants in the heads of every Democrat; brain control has to be the explanation or Pod People.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:23:41 AM PDT

•  Agreed

  Make Bush veto.  Make it a big news item everytime he does.

  Make the Republicans filibuster.  Make it a big news item everytime they do.

  Stop doing the back room deals.  Make people vote, particularly Senators, so that we can see who stands for or against what.  Make it clear which Senators are blocking things.

  Everytime a Republican stands up and objects, obstructing legislation, make it a big news item.

  by joanneleon on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:45:21 AM PDT

•  First they came for the "Illegals". . .

  In this diary yesterday by "Nulwee" (which, unfortunately, went no where), this observation was made regarding The Camps that we'll need to build
  when we round up the "Illegals".
  Wonder if the xenophobes will be standing in line to support the tax that'll be needed to build the American Gulags.  

  Well, first we'd have to put 'em in "camps" for processing and to await transportation.  Could be held from 3 months to a couple of years I suppose.  And if, say, we had 5 million in the camps at any one time, then we'd be talking about, say, 100 camps spread across the U.S., with 50,000 Illegals in each.  With such numbers we'd certainly have to guard against mass (or any) escapes, so the camps would have to be secure, with high fences, topped with razor wire, and guard towers along the perimeters.

  Sort of like this, perhaps.

  Here in These United States.

  Oh, yes, that's right - it was your own BenGoshi
  who made that observation.  Papers, please.

  BenGoshi
  ________________________________________________

  by BenGoshi on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:46:07 AM PDT

  •  Been watching some of these cop reality shows

    and it is instructive to observe the reaction of good citizens asked to produce identification. Many simply refuse to provide any at all. Would be fun if the old "Candid Camera" could set up Lou Dobbs at a traffic stop where they told him his license was a fake and he had to prove his citizenship.

    Now that would be a reality show.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:33:34 AM PDT

    •  You know, he DOES have a funny accent. . .

      . . .  like, perhaps, he's from that tiny, impoverished and relatively unknown Western European country of Asshatria.

      Ever since the market collapsed for buggy whips and weasel fur sex toys, the Asshatrian economy's been in a free-fall (that is, for the past 89 years).  During WWII both the Germans and the Allies used it's major city, Toejamnovosk, as a dumping place for their respective army's latrines (Ike once said, "Who'd know the difference?", referring to the perpetual stench still emanating from the 20 or so weasel hide tanneries which continued to operate in Toejamnovosk throughout the war).  During the 50s-70s, many Asshatrians illegally emigrated to the U.S. by making their way to Antwerp, then clinging to the the barnacles on the hulls of ships bound for America.

      Lou Dobbs is the spittin' image of the last of a long line of famously inbred Asshatrian monarchs, King Nosehair du Blech.  Lou Dobbs himself could, indeed, just be another "Illegal". . .

      The worm turns.

      BenGoshi
      ________________________________________________

      Hmmm . . .

      by BenGoshi on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:44:07 AM PDT

  •  Ponder this: In case of Mad Cow Disease, we can

    trace the source back to a specific cow in a particular stall in the exact barn who carried the infection.  We can track the cow when it was moved to another farm and identify any calf born to the identified cow.

    In the case of illegals, we've lost track of "million and million" of them and can't identify who's legal and who's not.

    Simple solution"  as each illegal comes across the border, give 'em a cow.  Then we can keep track of where they are.  

    by drmah on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:01:22 AM PDT

    •  We can trace the cows because

      they are ground into hamburger; I think the immigrants would object to this sort of tracking.

      by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 10:32:46 AM PDT

•  I've been screaming this...

  ...at the top of my lungs everytime I read about another capitulation:

  Well, make him veto. Every single time.

  Why oh why is it so hard for them to comprehend such a basic strategy?

  by Spathiphyllum on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:46:14 AM PDT

  •  Ask them... n/t

    by JeffW on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:24:35 AM PDT

•  one thing I noted about yesterday;s debate

  let me to offer a kudo to Hillary Clinton in this diary from last night.

  Peace.

  by teacherken on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:50:39 AM PDT

  •  The only things the talking heads this morning

    noticed is that Hilary is speaking through her nose while Obama continues to speak through his diaphram and neither of them appears to be on steroids or likely to bat over .200.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:34:54 AM PDT

•  Didn't veto a single bill when GOP controlled

  It's not about pork - Bush loves pork.

  Bush is offended that Democrats are trying to take back the corporate welfare pork that the GOP gave out.

  by CA Libertarian on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:51:13 AM PDT

  •  Wrong characterization

    Most Democrats are just as guilty as Republicans for dipping into the coffers of corporate America.  Some, including one of the primary Dem candidates, brazenly defend taking corporate bribe money from lobbyists.

    Yet we stand by and cheer them all on, oblivious.

    by pkbarbiedoll on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:07:37 AM PDT

    •  Oh I agree the Democrats are no saints...

      ...when it comes to pork.

      But we should be clear that Bush signed off plenty of Democratic pork when the Republicans were running things.  It was one big happy happy spend party.

      Bush's concern isn't Democratic pork, it's the Democrats taking aim at Republican sacred cows like the oil company tax cuts or the endless war in Iraq.

      And it gets even more hypocritical when Bush says oh you have to approve the AMT tax breaks for the middle class but then the GOP interferes with any attempts to fund those tax breaks.

      by CA Libertarian on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 12:42:01 PM PDT

•  Devils Advocate

  I agree on domestic law, but for the war, the veto approach won't work. What the Congress needs to be doing is articulating a way forward, not just generating veto after veto. The media machine is stacked against us, and that will get played over and over again as the Congress dithering, or worse yet, as it being our side that is the obstruction.

  Everyone needs to get a grip and understand the Dems can NOT defund the war while Bush is in there. Bush is just evil enough to not properly equip/fund them (hasn't he already done it?)and then have generals trot up there and tell us the Dem veto approach is costing American lives. With a Republican friendly media how well do you think that would play?

  My opinion is that we need to force another big showdown - have him veto it, and then articulate to the public a rational plan for the future: we can't defund the troops, but we are going to stop this when you elect enough of us to override his veto. That is quite different from what they are now doing - essentially talking tough for 15 seconds and then unilaterally surrendering.

  by cstallwo on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:51:19 AM PDT

  •  The Rethugs say the Media Machine is

    against them too.  I suggest that the media is not against C or L, but interested in its own benefit.

    by angrytoyrobot on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:00:04 AM PDT

    •  Hmmmm - you watching the same media as I?

      No insult intended, but you aren't looking closely enough. It is patently obvious the media is skewed very much to the right.

      The Republicans assert the media is against them as a strategic way of keeping the media off balance and afraid to say or do anything that would set off the echo chamber. Besides their natural inclination - as corporate entities - is to swing right. I won't list it all here, but really, name an outfit that consistently has any left leaning bias? I can rattle off four or five major outlets without thinking very hard that swing the other way though. Wake up!

      by cstallwo on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:08:25 AM PDT

  •  This has already happened

    The day after the first threatened timeline for GWB and his minions were on the MSM whining about how the troops were going to have to go without bullets if they didn't get money to Iraq by the end of the week. I kind of got the impression financing the war is a day to day thing, another example of subprime financing.

    by entlord1 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:25:35 AM PDT

•  If, or should I say "when"

  Reid ignores the candidates and other Senators by bringing the "Intelligence" committee's version of the FISA amendment to the floor, I hope to God they all have long memories and boot his ass out of the leadership position.  He is weak and an embarassment.

  by gchaucer2 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:51:20 AM PDT

•  You know...

  ..if Dems were to suddenly get 60 votes in the Senate, they would hesitate to push things through because it would make people think they were railroading legislation through, unfairly using their majority.

  The 'veto-proof' number, oft quoted, is a convenient dodge.  It allows them to roll over, they think, and not burn any bridges.  Of course, people are noticing, and see the lack of backbone (or cojones, or whatever) for themselves.

  Grow a pair, Senators, please.  (whether that be cojones or ovarios is up to the individual Senator)

  by Stymnus on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:54:00 AM PDT

•  The Dems

  Don't listen to these posts.  They seem to think a "showdown" with the prznit is a bad thing.  I mean, they haven't folded on SCHIP, which is good, but they've folded on every thing else.  So...

  I'm just so disappointed.  I mean.  I'm heartbroken.  2006 was supposed to be a watershed year and it's been nothing but empty promises and bad leadership.

  by Jeremiah on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:55:56 AM PDT

•  NM-01

  This from Joe Monahan's New Mexicothis morning:

  The failure of the Democratic controlled Congress to deliver on key issues--ending the Iraq war being the most pressing--is taking a toll on their popularity and, says NM political operative Heather Brewer, impacting Dem chances of winning the ABQ congressional seat next year.

  "The base is turned off. They elected Democrats to end the war, and they haven't. That is why there is no excitement over the congressional race. If it continues, (Republican) Darren White will have a better chance of keepin