Daily Kos

Doctors Explain the Flaws of Mandated Insurance

Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:36:20 AM PDT

Last week I leveled a series of criticisms of Paul Krugman's pro-mandates column. Despite the common liberal belief in open minds and in weighing evidence over personalities, some here at Daily Kos preferred to go with Krugman over some psuedonymous blogger.

So perhaps when two Harvard professors of medicine lay out the case against mandates, the reasons why individual mandates for health insurance are a bad idea will get more reception.

The "mandate model" for reform rests on impeccable political logic: avoid challenging insurance firms’ stranglehold on health care. But it is economic nonsense. The reliance on private insurers makes universal coverage unaffordable.

David U. Himmelstein and Steffie Woodhandler, the two authors of the article, are also members of Physicians for a National Health Program, a group of doctors and researchers who support single-payer. Their argument here is that individual mandates are a Nixonian effort to sandbag single-payer by providing a flawed health insurance reform that has failed in the six states that have attempted it.

IN 1971, President Nixon sought to forestall single-payer national health insurance by proposing an alternative. He wanted to combine a mandate, which would require that employers cover their workers, with a Medicaid-like program for poor families, which all Americans would be able to join by paying sliding-scale premiums based on their income.

Obviously Nixon never got to implement this approach, though it should cause us to ask why any Democrat would attempt the same. Even if they aren't proposing it to forestall single-payer, that IS the actual effect of the plan.

But it's not just that Nixon came up with the idea. The real problem with using individual mandates is that the six states that have tried to mandate insurance have all witnessed its failure.

In 1988, Massachusetts became the first state to pass a version of Nixon’s employer mandate — and it added an individual mandate for students and the self-employed, much as Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Edwards (but not Mr. Obama) would do today. Michael Dukakis, then the state’s governor, announced that "Massachusetts will be the first state in the country to enact universal health insurance." But the mandate was never fully put into effect.  In 1988, 494,000 people were uninsured in Massachusetts. The number had increased to 657,000 by 2006.

Oregon, in 1989, combined an employer mandate with an expansion of Medicaid and the rationing of expensive care. When the federal government granted the waivers needed to carry out the program, Gov. Barbara Roberts said, "Today our dreams of providing effective and affordable health care to all Oregonians have come true." The number of uninsured Oregonians did not budge.

The authors go on to describe how the same phenomenon took place in Minnesota, Vermont, Tennessee, and Washington State in the 1990s - a mandate plan was passed and failed to stop the increase in the number of uninsured Americans. They close by returning to MA, which apparently hasn't learned from its past mistakes:

As governor, Mitt Romney tweaked the Nixon formula in 2006 when he helped devise a second round of Massachusetts health care reform: employers in the state that do not offer health coverage face only paltry fines, but fines on uninsured individuals will escalate to about $2,000 in 2008. On signing the bill, Mr. Romney declared, "Every uninsured citizen in Massachusetts will soon have affordable health insurance." Yet even under threat of fines, only 7 percent of the 244,000 uninsured people in the state who are required to buy unsubsidized coverage had signed up by Dec. 1. Few can afford the sky-high premiums.

Only 7% of uninsured MA residents have actually been helped by this. Some defenders of mandate plans point to public subsidies as the answer. I have consistently argued that those plans will face a funding shortfall and I have not yet had anyone counter that criticism (usually they move the goalposts at that point and say "well why don't you want us to do something?"). MA shows that this is a very real issue:

Each of these reform efforts promised cost savings, but none included real cost controls. As the cost of health care soared, legislators backed off from enforcing the mandates or from financing new coverage for the poor. Just last month, Massachusetts projected that its costs for subsidized coverage may run $147 million over budget.

As government wastes money subsidizing private profits, there is less money available to properly fund public subsidies and public insurance coverage. And in MA, right now, the state is governed by Democrats, from the state house to Deval Patrick. Why is there a deficit?

Wouldn't it make sense for us to provide funding for expansion of public programs alone, without the poison pill of health insurance mandates? S-CHIP was a very popular reform, it got 2/3 in the Senate and nearly that in the House. We could greatly expand free care for Americans in need without repeating past mistakes, without shackling millions of Americans to insurance companies that commit murder by spreadsheet as a core business practice.

bonddad has explained why market-based health insurance does not work. Here in CA the state insurance commissioner is suing Blue Shield for "thousands of violations of state law" in their dropping of sick people from coverage. These are the people we want to force Americans to give their money to?

The authors close their op-ed by explaining the flaws of mandates:

The "mandate model" for reform rests on impeccable political logic: avoid challenging insurance firms’ stranglehold on health care. But it is economic nonsense. The reliance on private insurers makes universal coverage unaffordable.

I would argue that in fact, the political logic is flawed as well. When Washington State passed its plan in 1993, public reaction was so negative that voters in that reliably blue state gave the GOP a massive victory in 1994, taking over the state legislature and reducing the number of Dems in Congress from WA from seven to two. It took Democrats nearly 10 years to recover.

Bad plans come with enormous political costs. Do we really want to jeopardize the 2010 and 2012 elections with a health care reform that has failed everywhere it's been tried? Or should we instead demand better leadership from our presidential candidates? If they're as good as we're told, wouldn't they be willing and able to find a way to make a better plan politically successful?

Tags: health care, health insurance (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 148 comments

  •  A California-specific version of this diary (25+ / 0-)

    Is over at Calitics, with stats and analysis of a CA health insurance mandate proposal.

    Come on, Daily Kos, prove to me that you don't totally lose your mind during an election season and can still discuss these issues fairly and rationally...

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:36:25 AM PDT

    •  31% goes to insurers. We can't afford them. (6+ / 0-)

      It is the most inefficient health care system in the world.

      The U.S. spends twice as much as other industrialized nations on health care, $7,129 per capita. Yet our system performs poorly in comparison and still leaves 47 million without health coverage and millions more inadequately covered.

      This is because private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consume one-third (31 percent) of every health care dollar. Streamlining payment through a single nonprofit payer would save more than $350 billion per year, enough to provide comprehensive, high-quality coverage for all Americans.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:04:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course, Edwards' plan addresses that (6+ / 0-)

        and opens the avenue for single-payer by forcing private insurers to compete against Medicare. Elizabeth Edwards explained the reasoning behind their plan here on dKos beack in May:

           America can choose single payer (56+ / 0-)

           The genius of John's plan is that it allows Americans to choose a single payer option.  We all know that there would be incredible opposition from those for-profit health care special interests if the plan required single payer.  Under John's plan, the for-profits get to play, but they have to compete with a government provider, and John (and Paul Krugman among others) think that the for-profits will not be able to oppose a plan like John's.

        If you are really interested in universal health care coverage, Obama's plan will never get us there, and Kucinich's plan is, for political reasons, a non-starter. I think that Edwards' plan at least has a shot at getting us there. And it is most definitely not the gave-away to private insurers that this diarist describes.

        •  But it IS a giveaway (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Aexia, vivacia, FishOutofWater

          Because Edwards has mandates and plans to use the IRS to garnish your wages if you don't comply. The mandate plans have failed everywhere they've been tried, and MA found that the cost of administering the public option and subsidies is higher than previously expected.

          PNHP is right to say that leaving that $350 billion in wasted money in the hands of insurers means we don't have the financial capacity to make robust, affordable public subsidies work.

          Your comment doesn't answer any of the criticisms raised in the diary - instead you act as if I and the PNHP folks never made them and simply restated Edwards' plan. The problem is his plan will fail.

          If he wants to get credit for offering a "single-payer option" then why not just do that without a mandate? Create a public insurance provider, throw it open to all Americans, adequately subsidize it, and see what happens? Why attach a mandate to it at all?

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 12:02:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course they failed in Massachussetts (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            laurak

            The plan was approved by Mitt Romney and truly was a sop to the private insurance industry. Here's a little more on the Edwards plan:

            In Edwards' conception, employers would be required to pay for health insurance for employees or instead pay into a fund to provide for coverage. The federal government would then set up "health care markets," where "you can choose from a private insurer -- there will be several -- or you can choose from the government; there will a government choice, be similar to Medicare, sort of a Medicare Plus choice."

            Edwards said the government would also give subsidies for paying the health care premiums on a sliding scale, with low-income Americans having much of the cost covered.

            ....

            He said the government-run system would have lower administrative costs than the private system where about one-third of costs are administrative.

            Link

            The reason that Edwards won't try to go for a single-payer system directly is that such an approach wouldn't stand a prayer of making it through Congress. Have you ever witnessed a money cow being gored in Washington DC, and I mean ever?? But as Elizabeth Edwards pointed out in the comment I posted above, private insurers may not have the power to kill Edwards' plan--and once they are forced to compete with a Medicare-like system, the writing will at last be on the wall.

            I don't know what else can succeed in this country. The idea of simply expanding free coverage just makes no sense to me--it will never happen. We have to be adults and accept that as adults, we have a responsibility to pay into the system (and it would be done very progressively under the Edwards plan).

            •  As long as you tell yourself (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              vivacia

              It's not possible, then I guess you'll never see the ways in which it IS possible.

              You really mean to tell me that if a President Edwards were to submit a single-payer plan to a Democratic Congress, they wouldn't pass it? If he can't exert that kind of leadership, why exactly should we support him again?

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 01:50:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And I think you are being naive (0+ / 0-)

                if you think that any one leader, no matter how persuasive and popular (and I think Edwards is about as good an advocate for reforming the system as we could ever hope for) could overcome a corporate-dominated media and convince a corporate-dominated media to kill off an industry as hugely profitable as our for-profit health care industry. I just don't see it happening--not through a direct frontal assault--do you?

                But I'm not a cynic. I actually hold out hope for the Edwards plan to accomplish what you and I both want. A cynic would never hold out such hope.

                •  Ouch! (0+ / 0-)

                  I meant to write:

                  ... and convince a corporate-dominated congress ...

                  for whatever that's worth.

                  •  You were right both times about corps (0+ / 0-)

                    But I think that the entire point of our movement, the netroots movement we've been spending the entire decade building, is to do exactly that - get around the corporate dominated media. To provide the leadership to do the difficult things.

                    When you tell me Edwards can't overcome them, that suggests to me he's not going to be the kind of leader we need. If one of his supporters is down on his leadership abilities, then why should I, an undecided voter, waste my vote on him?

                    Fuck the Congress. The combination of a strong grassroots movement and presidential leadership will make a Democratic Congress fold. If President Edwards couldn't convince Congress to pass single-payer he's not worth having in office.

                    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
                    Neither is California High Speed Rail

                    by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 06:37:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Can I ask (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      MasonMcD

                      who you support?

                      Right now 83 out of 435 members of the house are on record supporting Conyers' single-payer bill. I love Kucinich, but he's not going to be able to turn around another 135 of his former colleagues, even in the alternate universe where he could be elected. Not to mention that the majority of Americans are brainwashed at this point about the perils of [gasp!] socialized medicine! They need to be brought along, and Edwards plan is capable of doing that.

        •  somebody wrote this on another current diary (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene

          Uninsurable Uninsurables in my state, CA, must be given an option to buy into a federally subsidized pool. This expensive policy comes with high copays and ghastly deductibles. (Ex: my new individual policy for 2 is $1000/mon).

          The federally "subsidized" public plan already exists. All it lacks is funding from Congress.

  •  I agree, It was a good article. (4+ / 0-)

    I really think PNHP has figured this whole problem out and it's time to start collecting and concentrating power (i.e., money) behind them or an umbrella group.

    The next 12 - 18 months should see a building momentum and visibility behind the articulation of public demands regarding goals for health care reform - requirements (e.g., universal coverage, no denials/delays/cancellations, decoupled from employment, rates decoupled from clinical utilization, and I could go on and on).

    Smart money says "mandate" will not show up the list.

    HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

    by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:46:43 AM PDT

    •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      taylormattd

      Perhaps aim at 2010 as the big year, to influence that year's elections and set up 2011 as a year of legislative action, and setting up 2012 as a year of ballot box action if legislatures fail.

      An umbrella organization would be useful.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:49:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Umbrella would Still Be in Need of a Strategy (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, FishOutofWater

        And the problem is that the leading Dems are all actively opposed to single payer.  As Himmelstein and Woolhandler point out, the plan that they endorse was designed by Nixon to forestall single payer.

        We've been down this path before.  In 1993, Jim McDermott and the small number of actual progressives in Congress dutifully lined up behind single payer and got entirely ignored by Hillary Clinton and Ira Magaziner, who wanted nothing whatsoever to do with them.

        Frankly, the most direct path to single payer is to elect Dennis Kucinich president.

        Long shot? You bet. But it's an opportunity that you have next year that you won't have in 2010.

        This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

        by GreenSooner on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 12:14:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary, and good article (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    taylormattd, laurak, kck

    but I wish you would acknowledge that Krugman is in favor of Medicare for All.

    Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

    by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:51:39 AM PDT

    •  He says he is, yes (5+ / 0-)

      But then he went and wrote a column saying that single-payer isn't politically possible (which is not correct) and that mandates are an acceptable alternative (which they're not) and that to criticize them is to engage in right-wing smears (which is absurd).

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:53:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then the line of attack I would suggest (0+ / 0-)

        is to hold him to what he's proposed in the past.

        Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

        by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:54:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Indeed (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          meg, andgarden

          And that is what I am attempting to do, by explaining how mandates are not an acceptable alternative, that what he proposed in the path is not just the right answer, but the only one that will work politically and economically.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:56:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well it seems to me (0+ / 0-)

            a stronger position of advocacy to say "here you are two years ago being right on this issue, where are you now?" than "you're wrong [right now]."

            It's a stylistic point, but one that has some significance for me--I care about this issue.

            Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

            by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:59:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Medicare for All, as is today won't work either. (0+ / 0-)

            You're right, eugene, only the whole enchilada contains enough funding to do the job. Halfway measures (e.g., expanding Medicare, mandates) result in halfway funds.

            (Can you please post a link to where Krugman paned single-payer?)

            HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

            by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:00:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  but Medicare for All IS single-payer (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              GreenSooner

              If funded correctly, it's everything we want. And it's not some scary Socialist program--voters LOVE medicare.

              Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

              by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:02:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Conceptually, yes. (0+ / 0-)

                In practicality, that is not true. Further, the changes needed to address the differences are some of the most controversial...physician payments, claims, physician choice - there's lots of gristle there to chew on.

                Even HR 676 is not perfect. It is a great starting point for dialog ad hearings.

                HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

                by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:12:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Expanding an existing program (0+ / 0-)

                  is much easier than starting a new one. Yes, I know questions of payment, choice, and claims are difficult. But those are mostly a question of funding. Once we authorize the program and everyone is covered, we will find the political will to pay for it.

                  Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

                  by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:13:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

                    But we need to be careful and acknowledge these issues up front or people will not take us seriously.

                    Americans want to choose their doctors and today most of their doctors will refuse Medicare.

                    The public needs to hear the most common pushbacks covered up front. So we start with Medicare and build it up, reusing it's infrastructure, but not keeping its current limits and constraints.

                    HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

                    by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:20:52 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  He didn't pan the single-payer plan (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              GreenSooner, dus7, kck

              He instead said in his NYT column on Dec 7 that it's not politically viable. I think that's flat out wrong. It's not politically easy, but it's like JFK said about the moon shot: "we choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hahd."

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
              Neither is California High Speed Rail

              by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:13:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, well political viability will not and can not (0+ / 0-)

                be in the critical path because it will never happen. The public and a public-private partnership will have to force the issue and push on the system to make the pain of not doing it worse than the pain of doing it.

                HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

                by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:15:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I refuse to subsidize (8+ / 0-)

    some private company's profit margin with my tax dollars.  Health care is too expensive and too necessary to make room for profits.

    I'm all for people making money, but it has no place in a public health system.

    We need single payer.  Period.

    "Fascism should rather be called corporatism, as it is the merging of government and corporate power." --Benito Mussolini

    by revelwoodie on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:55:42 AM PDT

    •  Absolutely (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Aexia, GreenSooner, revelwoodie

      And we will only get single-payer by holding the line firmly against these flawed insurance giveaways masquerading as "reform."

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:57:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But we also need (0+ / 0-)

      to move the Overton window.

      I wholeheartedly support universal, single payer coverage. In arguing for that, I make Edwards' plan publicly acceptable. Let the insurance companies argue against me, while Edwards' plan passes.

      Edwards' plan is a transition plan, and includes the mechanism to move to single payer. The private insurance companies are required to hew to the same mandates as a public policy - can't refuse for pre-existing, 85% on health care, same or better benefits as the public plan, etc.

      When private plans are forced to compete on a level playing field, they will lose

      If we don't offer a way to transition from our current fractured system, to an integrated system that reconciles all of these power relationships and payment schemes that have developed in the absence of single payer, and try to go straight to single payer, there will be too many oxen gored and it will lose, and set us back another decade.

      The kingdom of heaven is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.

      by MasonMcD on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:40:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We can't afford anything BUT single payer. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, GreenSooner, MakeChessNotWar, dus7

    None of the top 3 candidate plans are affordable, much less on a sustainable level. We don't need ideas - we need to look at working models and show Americans a real working long term business case that meets objectives and stands on its own. Every investigation has shown that only national single payer can do that - and likely without raising taxes!

    PNHP on costs.

    Bonddad on Single Payer Health: Cheaper and Better

    DrSteveB - Paying For Single Payer - Here's How!

    HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

    by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:56:50 AM PDT

    •  It's not (0+ / 0-)

      that single payer might be better it's just not politically viable right now. Maybe it should be a long term goal.

      I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

      by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:00:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It will never be politically viable. (0+ / 0-)

        HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

        by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:01:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You may be right. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

          by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:06:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You need to define "politically viable" (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene, dus7, FishOutofWater
          because there is a staggering duality between what is "viable" to the American people and what the "official" politician and pundit class have pronounced "viable." When polls show even a majority of REPUBLICANS support universal single-payer it IS "politically viable," IF you have the right people shepherding the political process.

          Many people are saying that smashing the consolidated media back into smaller pieces isn't "politically viable" as we approach a massive catastrophe on Tuesday of the FCC passing new regulations to allow MORE consolidation Yet 99.9% of Americans favour such deconsolidation. It's time we stopped defining "politically viable" as what those in power and their corporate masters want and redefine it as what the public wants, effectively pursued.

          Of COURSE single-payer is "politically viable," if politicians have the will.

          We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

          by anastasia p on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:35:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Things don't just become politically viable. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene

        You MAKE them politically viable.

        The right has understood this for a half century now, moving all sorts of things--from a regressive tax code to the destruction of our welfare safety net, federal funding for religious institution to torture--from the political fringe to bipartisan approval.

        Meanwhile, progressives refuse to vote their values and then explain their inactivity by insisting that what they'd really want is just "not politically viable."  Well, I wonder why it is isn't?

        Of course, making things like single payer politically viable will involve standing up to those who oppose things like single payer. And a lot of the opposition comes from within the Democratic Party.  This, too, is something that movement conservatives understood long ago, effectively purging the GOP of its liberal wing between 1960 and 1984.

        This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

        by GreenSooner on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 12:21:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

          pretty much with what you are saying. You have to make them viable. I'm saying that we haven't accomplished that yet.

          I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

          by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 12:39:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Half the country opposes it (0+ / 0-)

          This is still a democracy. More people have to be persuaded. We've got the momentum but we're not there yet.

          "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

          by denise b on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 01:12:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's the point (0+ / 0-)

            We need to start working on persuading people. Instead people are saying "well we have half the country, but that's not enough so let's quit."

            I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
            Neither is California High Speed Rail

            by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 01:53:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who said anything about quitting? (0+ / 0-)

              My comment was a response to one saying we have to stand up to those who oppose it. We do have to stand up to them, but we have a lot of persuading to do also, as we don't yet have a majority on this issue. The powers that be are not our only obstacle.

              "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

              by denise b on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 02:41:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Okay (0+ / 0-)

    so they support single payer. The problem is that single payer isn't going to happen anytime soon. That's the political reality of the situation.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:59:52 AM PDT

  •  Insurers cost a fortune & get in the way (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, dus7

    We are paying 30% of our health care dollars to intermediaries whose sole role is to deny coverage and deny care. It is absolute insanity.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:00:49 AM PDT

  •  ya get sick, ya get a mountain of forms & rules, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, Catte Nappe, dus7

    oh, by the way... where the hell is the health care?

    From 2002 until today, I've been on 5 different plans.

    In 2002 I had some gold plated microsoft employee thing.
    In 2003 I was on cobra, paying my own 6 or 7 or 800 month premiums.
    In aug 2004 I was on Cross-Your-Fingers and hope like hell nothing goes wrong.
    In Sept 2005 I was on federal way school district.
    In sept 2006 I was on seattle school district.

    I've had a few things fall apart in this 5 year span - appendix in april 2006 - and some feet things and some colds / flus and ... just the kind of normal 40+ year old stuff that happens with stressful jobs for people who doen't exercise enough and who are falling apart after 20+ years of stressful jobs ...

    (ummm... ya know, the kind of jobs that get you health insurance ... ?? the NONE 8-5 clock punching jobs? the ever shrinking pool of jobs like that where they whip you cuz ... if you lose the job YOU WON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE!!)

    and the freaking mountains of paperwork is beyond ridiculous...you're wadding through these rules and paper while your sick !! hobbling around sick wishing you were just back at work instead of dealing with all these nitwits!

    I was on the same floor of 1 local center and went in 4 different doors for various things and had 4 different bills from 4 different legal medical entities!

    WHAT THE FUCK DID THAT ACCOMPLISH?

    health insurance makes sense if you want to spend more money on 'health' than any nation on earth AND make sure consultants and bureaucrats are living large.

    the savings from eliminating health 'insurance' could certainly pay for retraining? maybe those people could be nurses, or teachers?

    (and for those who don't want retraining? fuck em! my family made money 200 years ago... making barrels? times change, tough.)

    rmm.  

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:01:15 AM PDT

    •  Not me, I get no papers, no claims, - (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, dus7, seabos84

      I'm in a cradle-to-grave prepaid HMO. Just like the client side of Medicare.

      Freedom from claims is another BIG benefit from single payer along with the billions spent on claims processing every year.

      HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.

      by kck on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:04:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  as long as hmo doesn't hire a michael milken & (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene

        figure out a way to change all the rules, steal all the money, and screw everyone ...

        like that fascist fuck RayGun let happen in the 80's to pensioners!

        good luck.

        rmm.

        Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

        by seabos84 on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:06:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Vote Kuchinich (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dus7

    Second best on health care is Edwards.

    If Obama's plan is implemented I personally will "game" the system. It would be my obligation to my family to make the best legal financial decisions possible.

  •  Here's a question to ask yourself (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, zett, dus7, Remembering Jello

    ...if you support this mandate nonsense: When you lose your job because of the economy, are you prepared to be forced to pay COBRA? Right now it's an option that you may choose, assuming it doesn't interfere with your ability to feed your family. Right now, you can choose daily sustenance. If this bullshit passes, it will not be a choice. A lot of people will lose their jobs because of the economic fallout of this admin, and they'll be feeding their kids pancakes for dinner while they pay their $1000+ monthly mandated insurance premium.

    It's utter bullshit and I can't believe anyone on the left except privileged progressives would fall for it. Unfortunately, I'm a working class girl, have been my whole life, despite years of trying, and I can't afford the ideals of those who have a higher standard of living than I do, those who can't imagine what it's like to have to eat pancakes for dinner.

  •  The problem (0+ / 0-)

    with no mandates is that you really don't change the system from the way it is now. I understand the problem with the insurance companies but if you don't have some sort of mandate then medical costs are going to continue to be shifted onto the government and people with insurance hence making things like medicare insolvent and insurance premiums more expensive.

    I think the best thing right now is the way Clinton and Edwards are proposing to do: have the private insurers compete with the government plans. The government plans will never be as expensive as the private plans because there isn't the profit incentive.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:06:03 AM PDT

    •  You want to shift the costs onto the government (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Aexia, eugene, laurak, belly

      the costs will be borne by everyone through a progressive income tax--ideally.

      I know the Republicans have spent 50 years scaring us away from this, but it's the right way to go.

      Daily Kos used to be worthwhile.

      by andgarden on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:07:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You have to read the op-ed (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Aexia

      Under mandates that phenomenon will still occur - they fail to reduce the number of uninsured.

      The competition factor is flawed - the public plans aren't properly funded. Without large subsidies the public plans won't be able to offer competitive premiums AND the "cadillac plans" that the candidates claim to be able to provide.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:08:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point (0+ / 0-)

        is that mandates will increase the number of insured.

        The public plans would be much cheaper. There's no way my in laws could get private insurance for the price they pay for medicare. The operating costs are so much cheaper in medicare.

        I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

        by Ga6thDem on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:12:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  when is somebody just going to say it (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    zett, dus7

    We get rid of the parasitic un-insurance companies and finance health care for all through a sensible mechanism like extracting money from the veins of the corporate whores who have devastated this country ?

    Let's get some Democracy for America

    by murphy on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:19:55 AM PDT

  •  Why does mandated insurance work for (0+ / 0-)

    auto insurance, but not health insurance?