Daily Kos

Obama, what you really need to ask.

Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:03:30 PM PDT

Disclosure:  I am an eclectic Independent supporting Edwards.

Although race, religion, and age are a part of this diary, they are extraneous to  the topic.  The focus of this diary is unity and trust.  If you run as a uniter, shouldn't you have to act like one?  

I'm a uniter.  Where have we heard this one before?

I know the South Carolina Oprah/Obama event is old news, but I recently ran into this CNN article, Fans criticize Oprah for Obama support, and it made me curious.    

In a nut shell, the article is about her fans using her message board to ask that she (and Obama) please not turn his run for the Presidency into a race based campaign. Oprah reduces the allegations to "They are claiming that she is supporting Obama because he is black, and it isn't true."  However, there is no response to the allegation that Oprah and Obama are subtly telling black people to support Obama because they are black.    Oprah’s message board has been scrubbed, but here is the link to what remains.

Are We Unified Yet?
This story alone is lots of smoke and no fire so let's see what else there is.  He used Social Security scare tactics to appeal to his youth base, and he used the homophobic black preacher to appeal to black religious homophobes. And now there is this article lending credence to the claim that Obama (and Oprah)are using race based politics to divide and conquer the Clinton southern black vote.  

The article starts with a description of the Oprah and Obama South Carolina rally. It talks about the huge turn out, the enthusiasm of the crowd, and the record setting attendance and phone banking attempt. It also supplies quotes from Oprah and Obama that sound like pandering to me.  (Any emphasis below is mine.)

*Media mogul Oprah Winfrey rallied the crowd of supporters — a primarily female and African-American audience — to get behind her friend, Obama, a new kind of leader who possesses "a tongue dipped in the unvarnished truth," Winfrey said.

Oprah uses each of the following words and phrases listed below.

*"stepping out of my pew"
*"Dr. King dreamed the dream, but we don’t have to dream the dream anymore," Oprah told the crowd. "We get to vote that dream into office."
*Winfrey mentioning her Southern roots in Mississippi and Tennessee and growing up as a regular churchgoer.

Also included in this short article are observations on and quotes from Obama.

*Chicagoan’s liberal use of the word "y’all," .
*Obama even seemed to use a bit of a Southern accent. .
*Obama brushed through. his platform,

Didn’t Hillary get nailed for using a Southern accent?   And if Obama brushed through his platform at a political rally, what does that mean?  Is the hype, Oprah, and who they are more important that what he will or will not bring to the WH.  Here is one attendees quoted effect of the revival rally on her.

Attendee Tressie McMillan of Columbia thought she heard soft Rs and other hints of Southern inflections from both Winfrey and Obama.. "It was like they were speaking to us like family," McMillan said. "It felt natural."

If Obama is preaching unity and dividing by race, religion, and age, shame on him.  At the very least, this explodes his claim to fame as the unity candidate or does it?  

So if I'm not a uniter, what am I?

When I look at Obama, I am struck by how slick, charming, and "preachy" he is.  I see mega church like events full of devoted followers, which leads me to Elmer Gantry.

Elmer Gantry is a novel written by Sinclair Lewis in 1926and published by Harcourt in March 1927. It tells the story of a young, narcissistic, womanizing college athlete who, upon realizing the power, prestige, and easy money that being an evangelical preacher can bring, pursues his "religious" ambitions with relish, contributing to the downfall, even death, of key people around him as the years pass. Although he continues to womanize, is often exposed as a fraud, and frequently faces a complete downfall, Gantry is never fully discredited and always manages to emerge triumphant and to reach ever greater heights of social status. The novel ends as the Rev. Gantry prays for the USA to be a "moral nation" and simultaneously admires the legs of a new choir singer.

When I look at Obama, all I can see is Elmer Gantry.

....  young, narcissistic, who, upon realizing the power, prestige, and easy money that being a politician can bring, pursues his "political" ambitions with relish, contributing to the downfall, even death (war), of key people (us) around him as the years pass.  Although he continues to gratify his –lust- desire for power, is often exposed as a phony/fraud, he is never fully discredited and always manages to emerge triumphant and to reach ever great heights of social and political status (Obama tied with Hillary in Iowa, NH, SC).  The campaign ends as Obama prays for the USA to be a "moral" and "unified" nation while he simultaneously panders, y’all.

Can Oprah turn a hug into votes?    I feel as if I've fallen through the looking glass and wandered into the High Church of Bling.  While I wait for the collection plate, I am greatly concerned that we are flirting with another fool me twice moment in our political history.  We have all heard the phrase "I’m a uniter", which should immediately be followed by the thought that "The lady doth protest too much...".

Tags: Barach Obama, Oprah Winfrey, South Carolina, 2007 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 204 comments

    •  You must have (1+ / 1-)

      Recommended by:
      Boston Boomer, seabos84
      Hidden by:
      Statusquomustgo

      really read fast or not past the intro.  

      ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

      by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:05:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sounds to me like you don't want (22+ / 0-)

        Oprah for President.  Well, you're in luck---she's not running!
         And you couldn't be further off the mark on Obama if you tried.  This is the complete opposite description of the man and his character as you would get from those who have known him for decades.
         This is a pitiful attempt at smear.

        •  Not a smear. It is a legitimate question. (1+ / 0-)

          I learn more about candidates from their supporters in diaries or comments like this than all of the why my guy is so great diairies put together.  

          Can he unite and divide up the electorate at the same time?  I didn't ask him to lay claim to being a uniter.  Tell me what you think he is uniting?

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:00:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Lets stick (5+ / 0-)

            to concrete evidence of each candidate's character

            edwards; co-sponsored iraq war resolution without bothering to read NIE..

            voted for bush's tax cuts for wealthy-3 times
            voted against public financing of elections -twice
            voted against the estate tax on wealthy
            voted against the wellstone amendment to boost VA funding
            voted for harsher bankruptcy law to aid credit card companies
            voted against limiting govt authority in the Patriot Act
            voted against restricting consolidation of big packing..

            Oh yes,, John Edwards.. a man of conviction. A man who says what you like to hear but votes for the bush agenda when in office.

            I think edwards is probably an ok guy but diaries like this just make me want to talk about his voting record to every Iowan I see.

            •  Wait a minute. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dkmich

              You didn't list Obama's concrete achievements in the Senate.  You said you were going to look at both candidates in a concrete way.  This diary is about Obama, isn't it?  

              There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

              by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:20:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  No (0+ / 0-)

            I learn more about candidates from their supporters in diaries or comments like this than all of the why my guy is so great diairies put together.  

            Obviously not.

            The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

            by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:26:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  can I get a link for the "uniter" quote? n/t (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sagittarius

        Grandpa is mean and he smells funny.

        by MadAsHellMaddie on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:45:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Am I wrong? God, that would be one huge road (0+ / 0-)

          block gone.  I could swear he was promoting himself as a unity candidate.  Not the same thing?  I'll look around. Maybe I read it and just took it at face value.  

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:02:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Googled Obama and unity. (0+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Boston Boomer

          http://www.google.com/...

          If someone is doing unity doesn't that make them a uniter?

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:06:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  but your line - "I'm a uniter - where have we (0+ / 0-)

            heard this before" was an obvious reference to Dear Leader as if Obama is like Bush.  Which, is steaming pile bullshit but was used by you as the centerpiece of your badly written diary.

            I can't seem to find a quote by Obama stating "I'm a uniter".  

            Grandpa is mean and he smells funny.

            by MadAsHellMaddie on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:13:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I don't have any recollection or (0+ / 0-)

              knowledge of Obama having ever used those exact words.  If that was inferred in anyway, it shouldn't have been.  The connection here between Obama and Bush would only be accurate if Obama were as insincere about it as Bush obviously is.

              ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

              by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:00:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  what a bunch of bull crap.... (0+ / 0-)

        It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment. Ansel Adams -6.5 -6.75

        by Statusquomustgo on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:44:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Delete, please. You have embarrassed yourself. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nick Blas, red 83, Robinswing

        This is the most ill informed, paranoid, verging on racist diary I have seen in awhile.

        1. Tongue dipped in the unvarnished truth is a phrase Oprah also used in IA with a crowd of almost entirely white voters. (Paranoid much). Similarly, she used the phrase "outside of her pew" in front of the same crowd. The failure of logic here is beyond ignorance and moves toward a sad atempt race-baiting.
        1. As for Oprah, as she pointed out, she has voted for as many Rebuplicans as Democrats. Given how few elected black Republicans there are in this country and the invitation she extended to George Bush to appear on her show, the argument that she is supporting Obama because he is black is beyond specious.
        1. This does not help your candidate. I would guess that a number of Edwards fans are embarrassed by this garbage. If you want to debate issues, please do. Otherwise, spare us the redstate.com arguments.
      •  I made the same connection (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dkmich

        between Obama and Elmer Gantry.   But I didn't have the nerve to put it out there.  You've got guts.  My reaction is based more on Obama's supporters here at DKos than on Obama's speeches or debate performances.  I can't really see the magic myself, although he seems quite likeable.  But some (not all) of his supporters act like they've been hypnotized.  

        There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

        by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:23:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I live, I'll have to put my guts back inside. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Boston Boomer

          I expected the usual Obama crowd, and I always try to learn from them because he maybe our candidate.  In any event, I'm a firm believer in open minded and honest discussion.  I don't know any other way to build team.  No trust, no team.  I never said anything racist, and nothing I said was based on the color of anybody's skin.  In fact, the point of this whole diary was did Oprah and Obama play the race card?  

          You better leave while you are still able.  I'll cover you.

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:22:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the offer. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dkmich

            I don't take any of this stuff personally.  I honestly want to find a leader who can somehow pull this country back from the brink of fascism.  I don't care who it it is.  

            I found your diary quite interesting and thoughtful.  I think we're having somewhat the same struggle trying to understand Obama's appeal.  I don't plan to give up or run away just because some people can't contain their anger.

            Sometimes I look around this place and it's like hundreds of 2 year olds are having tantrums all at the same time.  I guess I'm just too old to get that worked up about it.  I'm just a political junkie.

            There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

            by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:28:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not emotionally invested in this race either (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Boston Boomer

              All I honestly want is to find a leader who can somehow pull this country back from the brink of fascism, and I don't care who it is either.

              God, I'm glad to meet you.  I feel like you pulled me out of a tank full of pirannahs.  I can't believe how identical our positions are.  The only one thing I saw different is that you don't mind getting beat up as much I do.  Other than that, we're soul mates.

              I keep hoping to find an Obama supporter here who isn't nuts so they can help me understand what they see.  I need more than two premises on which to vote in support of our stated goal.   His platform appears to be "trust me and hope that I can put trust back into the government like I said; and I love mother and apple pie - so help me jesus".  What does that mean?  Who is he?  I know his credentials, his work experience, his childhood and his youth.  OK, so he isn't an ex-felon with a GED -like big surprise.  Of course he's qualified, but who is he and what does he want?

              I found what I wrote to be a bit of an Obama dichotomy, and I hoped somebody would either explain it to me or wonder too.   If he and Oprah played the race card in his southern strategy, then that makes his unity rhetoric empty.  If its empty, he's conning us; and if he's conning us, he's Elmer Gantry.  I don't want Elmer Gantry as my President.

              That's for getting my the point of my diary.  
              Make me a promise.  If you find out anything, you'll let me know.  

              ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

              by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 05:09:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If I find out something, I'll (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dkmich

                definitely let you know.  I don't think it's going to happen, though; because I'm looking for something rational and logical and most of the Obama supporters I've dealt with so far seem to be going on emotion.  That's why Elmer Gantry popped into my mind too.  I actually almost posted it in a comment yesterday.

                The thing is I really don't care who the president is.  I just want him or her to get our Constitution back for us.  And I'm trying to figure out which of the candidate so far is most likely to do that.  So far, of the top three, Edwards has given more of an indication to me that he sees what the problem is.  I think Obama might be brought to see it too.

                But the Obama supporters here seem to be taking more of the "my way or the highway" approach.  They don't want to convince you to support their candidate.  They want you to just take it on faith or they'll hit you over the head with a hammer.

                There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 06:14:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I read the entire diary ... (0+ / 0-)

        and although I am a confirmed Edwards supporter from WA State, the further into the diary I read, the more I got an 'icky' kind of feeling about the virtual image the diary was giving me about Barack Obama - as opposed to the vibe I've been getting from his appearances on debates and other televised appearances (after all, what the hell else am I supposed to base my opinion of the man on?).

        Meaning that he appears to be a man of many words, most of them sound well-intentioned (parsed though they might be), abeit some of them more than a bit vague on details.

        He does seem to be the man whom Hillary hopes you decide is a "dreamer" full of "hope" and not "electable".

        While I cannot choose him as my candidate, I do not agree with the auther that Obama is a religiousity-spouting divider bent on subverting his true nature from the rural and naive voters of Iowa.  (not my view of Iowans, but apparently that of dkmich)

        Couldn't you make your case by pointing out Obama's lack of leadership on the issues at hand (FISA review legislation; Impeachment Bill on Cheney; Motion of Presidential Censure (by Russ Feingolf); Funding bills for Iraq - and there are more)?

        •  This had nothing to do with Iowans. (0+ / 0-)

          My point is simple.  If he is playing the race, gay, age card, then he isn't the unity candidate he claims to be.  This would make him a manipulator, or shall we say con man.   A charming and charismatic con man, just like Elmer Gantry.  Throw it the strong "vibes" he stirs in his supporters, and viola, we have rallys that parody's the old revivalist tent meetings.  

          Is this picture literally correct? No, Obama is not Jerry Fallwell.  But this diary, based on two different news stories, does paint a visual of who the man just might be.  Maybe this explains this.

          I got an 'icky' kind of feeling about the virtual image the diary was giving me about Barack Obama - as opposed to the vibe.

          The rally the paper describes was in SC, not Iowa. I never said this, you did.

          ....is a religiousity-spouting divider bent on subverting his true nature from the rural and naive voters of Iowa.  (not my view of Iowans, but apparently that of dkmich)

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:49:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  What exactly do you want to be united with? n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    seabos84

    ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

    by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:04:26 PM PDT

  •  Obama = Elmer Gantry? (14+ / 0-)

    Right.

    That's the goofiest thing I've read all day.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:09:50 PM PDT

  •  this is a classic case (6+ / 0-)

    of a diary I really want to agree with, but because of the offensive presentation I really cannot.

    •  What is offensive? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jim J, Boston Boomer

      Do you think Obama is a uniter?  If yes, what is he uniting?  If he isn't uniting, does it matter and why does he lay claim to it?  Do you see him as preachy?   If yes, is he pope-ish or falwell-ian?

      ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

      by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:18:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't care for Obama (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        daria g, dkmich, denise b

        nor truthfully do I care for many of his supporters here who are blatantly ageist and sexist, and also too callow and stupid to own up to their prejudices.

        I'm just not sure entering race into this conversation at all is healthy. I realize it's a dynamic at some level, but you gotta be real, real careful how you introduce it. It must be done with sufficient gravity or it will backfire on the person who brings it up. I say this from experience.

        •  Race? Did anybody say they were (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Jim J, Boston Boomer

          genetically stupid or born to go to jail?  Conversations about race are not bad, racism is bad.  This isn't about racism overt or reverse.  It is about honesty.  This is why I was care to use SS and homosexuality in the diary as well.  It isn't about race.  That is what I said.  

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:32:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not trying to pull a 'gotcha' on you (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            daria g, Boston Boomer, dkmich

            I'm not accusing you of anything. I've just learned the hard way that bringing up race in any conversation about Obama, even to say it's not about race, usually backfires on you.

            Just sayin', that's all. Nothing personal against you, believe me.

            •  No wonder this country can't make any real (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Jim J, Boston Boomer

              progress on race.  Sort of like the immigration diaries.  So much to discuss, learn and change; but too many people running on emotions to listen.  

              ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

              by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:38:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The reason the country (3+ / 0-)

                is not making progress on race can be found in your nearest mirror, and in this diary.

                My choices: 1. Obama. 1. Edwards. ... 9,999,999. Hillary.

                by blue vertigo on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:42:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I don't disagree, but (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dkmich

                it is what it is and there's no use causing yourself any harm.

              •  One thing you don't get.. (8+ / 0-)

                Black people have NO interest in engaging in disingenuous discussions about race, and because 90% of the race based concern we see on the liberal blogs is in fact garbage, the bar for access has been raised.

                Until liberals can handle a black person voting for another black person based solely on the color of his/her skin, you will never get an honest discussion from us.

                Ask me if America is ready to elect a qualified black man and I'll tell you no.

                Ask me if I care, the answer will be the same.

                Why do you never ask me the second question?

                I can understand and accept that a black woman would vote for Hillary simply because she was a qualified woman.

                Having been subject to discrimination and oppression  our vote has more meaning to us, and always will.

                There is a logic many white liberals men fall to recognize.

                If you read red state you'll see white conservative men working race into the conversation about Obama by discussing the economic impact of reparations if he were to grant them after taking office.

                In the liberal blogs it's are Americans ready to elect a black man.

                Same sh$t.

                "Stop the drama. Vote Obama!"

                by Number5 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:16:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As a voter, you can vote for someone (0+ / 0-)

                  because you both wear the same shoe size.  Someone running for President, however, should run on merit - not their gender, race, age, or sexuality.  Bush sees himself as the President of "his kind" whatever that is.  He doesn't see himself as belonging to all the people.  I think Hillary and Obama hurt themselves when they reduce themselves to vote for me, I'm a woman, man, gay, black, or white.  I just want the best person for the job.  Beyond that, none of it matters.

                  I saw a good post about candidate litmus tests.  It basically said the litmus test should be willing to defend and adhere to the constitution.  I thought that was a pretty good answer.  

                  ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

                  by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:15:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I don't see any problem with (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  dkmich

                  anyone voting for Obama because he's black.  I'm tempted to do that myself because I'd like to see the first black president.  I think the diarist is saying that Obama and Oprah are pandering to black people in the South in the hopes that they will see the value of voting for Obama because he's black.  I really have no problem with that either.  All politicians pander and they have to get votes somehow.  I also have no problem with any woman who votes for Hillary because she's a woman.

                  The problem I have with Obama is that I can't tell what he really believes in besides "bringing people together" and solving problems.  I'd like more specifics on which problems and how they will be solved.  Obama focuses on process, while I'm more interested in issues.  

                  Finally, the biggest problem I have with Obama is the divisiveness I see from his supporters here.  That may not be his fault, but DKos where I get a lot of my information about him.  

                  There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                  by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:45:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  If Obama is going to be our candidate, (0+ / 0-)

              we are going to have to talk about race and how to counter the race-based Republican attacks.  Denying that reality isn't going to help at all.

              There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

              by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:38:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  First we have to talk about (0+ / 0-)

                the race based attacks on this site.

                The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:40:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I thought our goal was to elect (0+ / 0-)

                  a Democratic president.  I certainly haven't made any race-based attacks.  Would you like to be more specific?  I can't control everything other commenters say at DKos and neither can you.  But we could work together to support the nominee of our party and counter the inevitable attacks on him or her from Republicans.  Don't you want us all to work together on that?

                  There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                  by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:48:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I was responding to you not accusing you. (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Boston Boomer

                    As far as I'm concerned this diary and many of the can America vote for a black man diarie are thinly veiled racist attacks under the guise of concern.
                    As for the other,I've been working for Democrats since 1968. As a Boomer you know this means Humphrey /Nixon.
                    I'm all for getting along.  But I'm getting fed up with some of the stuff that happens here.  Other blacks have already left because of it.  I keep trying to hang on.  But to quote Fanny Lou Hamer "I'm getting sick and tired of being sick and tired."

                    The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                    by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:30:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think this is a "can America (0+ / 0-)

                      vote for a black man" diary.  The diarist was arguing that Oprah and Obama are trying to give black people the message that they should vote for Obama because he's black--they they are somehow pandering.  Even if that's true, I don't have a problem with it.

                      From what I've seen of dmich's comments elsewhere, I think he is sincerely asking why Obama has done and said things that tend to divide people on the basis of, particularly age and sexual preference, if he really wants to bring all Americans together.  That is one of the messages of his campaign, isn't it?  That's what I've gotten from him--that he is good at working across the aisle and hammering out agreements between people who disagree.

                      What I don't get is what does Obama really believe in?  Does he have a specific point of view on life and politics or is it just all about compromising?  I want to know if he has a core set of beliefs such that there is a point where he wouldn't give any more in the effort to compromise with Republicans and corporations.

                      There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                      by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:39:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Okay (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Boston Boomer, dkmich

                        The premise of this diary and your statement that Obama does and said things that tend to divide people is not obvious to me.  When? Who?

                        Please don't start with the McClurkin incident.  For one thing McClurkin is one of my favorite gospel singers as well.  He's not my minister.  Nor do I agree with his views which is what Obama said publicly.  I know that it's hard for some people on this site to understand that many blacks listen to his music, understand the pain that he often sings about without relating to his politics.

                        But while we're at it.  It was a common cry around here about McClurkin and how Obama should not have had him perform.  When some blacks tried to explain the relationship between gospel music and many of us who love listening to it we were told that this was purely homophobic pandering.

                        When someone black says this is racist we are told , no I don't think so.  It does come down to perspective.  I get that.

                        Allowing your beliefs about him to be shaped by what others say he said is problematic.  For instance, I've read other comments who use the word compromise.  You tell me what he gave up to get the ethics legislation passed.  Tell me what he gave up in the State Senate in Illinois to get what he went after.

                        This diarist used conjecture and projection instead of the truth.  I have a serious problem with that.  The opening "I am a uniter" is an example.  He speaks of unity and that gets translated into Bushspeak.

                        I say Dennis is spiritual and that gets translated into spiritualism. Two very different things.

                        Someone accuses racism and the reply was something like I didn't say they were born to go to jail.  Where the hell does that come from?  He was trying to sound black?  He says that all blacks should vote for him?  I asked twice for them to post this quote knowing that no such quote exists.

                        The saddest thing about all the anger is that it makes people irrational. It twists the idea of negotiation into compromise.  Unity into uniter.  

                        So here is the short version.  He believes in the Constitution.  He believes that Americans don't have to be divided.  He believes that intelligence and a willingness to listen can build bridges that flame throwing and name calling can't.  Neither can this country survive much more of the hyper-partisanship of the last couple of decades.

                        He's not against all wars, just dumb ones.  He had the courage to say that if he had actionable intelligence that Bin Laden was in Pakistan he would go in and get him with or without Musharraf.  One of his opponents objected only to take the same stance latter when it became apparent that Pakistan and Musharraf are in deep doo-doo.

                        He has vision, courage and intelligence.  He is also forthright and inspiring. Don't take my word for it.  Check out some of the truly heavy weight people who are solidly behind him.  

                        If you really want to know what he believes in , go to his website, read some of the positive diaries about what he's doing, has done. I am a supporter, not a spokesperson.

                        The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                        by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 05:52:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I really appreciate your being willing (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          dkmich

                          to talk to me about this.  

                          I think the problem the diarist is pointing out and that I see is that while Obama sold himself as someone who can bring people together and get things done, he has said and done things that have turned people against each other.

                          The McClurkin incident is one of those things, because it set up a conflict between evangelicals and gays.  But, as you say there's no need to talk about all that again.  

                          I can understand how you can like someone's music and not care about their politics.  I love following sports, and most of the athletes are probably Republicans.  Besides, I like gospel music too.  The kind I like is mostly bluegrass, but it's still gospel.

                          As for deciding what's racist, I really don't think white people get to decide.  But gays also ought to have some say in what's homophobic.  McClurkin's support of "curing" homosexuality is what is offensive to gays.  But I think Obama could have defused the issue if he hadn't dismissed what gays were saying and argued that gays don't understand religious people.  Many gays are religious and even stay with the Catholic Church, despite it's homophobia.

                          Here is what Obama said about my generation:

                          "I think there is no doubt that we represent the kind of change that Senator Clinton can't deliver on, and part of it is generational," Mr. Obama told Fox News yesterday about the difference between himself and Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York. "I mean, Senator Clinton and others, they've been fighting some of the same fights since the '60s, and it makes it very difficult for them to bring the country together to get things done."

                          A lot of people took offense to that statement.  Maybe you think we shouldn't have, but Obama could have defused that one too.  He chose not to.  

                          The social security issue is another one that has incited generational infighting.  Social Security is not in danger (Medicare is, so why not fix that first?)  But Obama said it was in danger and lots of young people started attacking baby boomers and saying they are going to be paying for our social security and aren't going to get anything for themselves. Never mind that the baby boomers' social security is already provided for, and there won't be a shortfall until about 2075.  The Social Security thing got a lot of Democrats nervous, because we had just recently beaten back Bush's attempts to privatize social security.  Why bring it up now and give the Republicans a chance to make it an issue in the election?

                          So those are the three things that are troubling me.  And mostly it is Obama's reaction to the criticisms that has bothered me.  His attitude seems to be just trust me, I know best and never mind the details or any apologies when your feeling are hurt.

                          I like the things that Obama has said about Pakistan.  I wish he would say more things like that.  Which leads to the other problem I have with Obama.  I find him a little to cautious, too unwilling to stand up and tell us what he believes in.  I honestly don't know what he believes other than that we shouldn't criticise the Republicans too harshly because we want them to compromise with us.  Why doesn't he recognize that compromise means both sides have to give up something.  These Republicans haven't been willing to do that for a very long time.

                          There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                          by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 06:38:30 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  He never said gays don't understand religious (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Boston Boomer

                            people.  He said that he didn't not endorse or agree with McClurkins views.  He has a solid record of supporting GL issues including being the only candidate calling for a federal civil union legislation.

                            To credit him with setting up a conflict between evangelicals and gays is beyond my ability to comprehend.  Are we talking about the same evangelicals who used gay marriage as a wedge issue in the last election?  He had a gospel tour.  I'm betting that most if not all the singers on that tour share McClurkin's attitudes.  The audience for this tour were black people who love gospel music.  That is why they were there. The GLBT community took issue.  But he didn't set up a conflict between evangelicals and gays.  For the evangelicals in this country, the Bible did that.

                            That McClurkin spoke up during the concert was most likely because of the firestorm created by the netroots.  This is not what usually happens at these events.

                            Dismissing a man's record on this issue in a fit of anger is illogical.  He is not nor has he ever been homophobic.  And if this standard of who appears for you was uniformly applied to all candidates then not one of them would pass the smell test.

                            And as a fellow boomer, he's right. We are still fighting about who was right about Nam.  It was a major campaign issue  in 2004, it came up when Bill ran the first time (remember the draft dodger charges?) Hell, they used Kerry's service in Nam and his protest afterwards against him.  He wasn't attacking he was stating facts.  I don't have a problem with the truth. We are in too many ways still fighting the '60's.

                            And I've seen different numbers than you about when SS becomes problematic. What I do know is that raising the cap is not something I'm opposed to.  I also know that the tendency to think ahead means we don't have to have a SS crisis at any point.

                            If you're not hearing enough about the things he would do it may well be a result of the dumb assed questions at debates.  It might be because you haven't been there in the town hall meeting and gotten a chance to hear what he thinks, what his plans are.  He is not a 30 second sound bite kinda guy.

                            The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                            by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:18:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  I'm not opposed to raising the SS cap either. (0+ / 0-)

                              I don't know of any Democrat who would oppose doing that when the time comes.  I hope Obama will propose a bill to do it next time he is in the Senate if he wants it to happen so badly.  Why hasn't he proposed such a bill already?  

                              That's not the point.  The point is that, in my opinion, it would be better to have that conversation after a Democratic president is elected.  There is only enough time for so many issues.  I think we should focus on ending the war and heading off fascism in this country first and not give the Republicans another issue to use as a distraction.

                              As for the gay/evangelical issue, Obama did imply that gays didn't understand the point of view of evangelicals.  I'll try to find the quote for you if I can.  The issue is that some of Obama statements have in fact caused a lot of bickering between various groups.  It has been clearly reflected here at DKos.  Just yesterday there were two diaries by Obama supporters that excoriated baby boomers as the root of all evil in the world (slight exaggeration).

                              Anyway, I get that you think he's a great candidate and you've told me why.  That is exactly what I have been hoping Obama supporters would be willing to share.  You're obviously intelligent and thoughtful, and I'll take your opinions to heart.  Thanks for talking about it with me.

                              There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                              by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 08:07:23 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                            •  I haven't dismissed Obama's career. (0+ / 0-)

                              And I'm not having a fit of anger, nor did I have a fit of anger in the past.  I don't see a problem with discussing issues that come up in the campaign.  It's one of the things I like to do.  I've been a political junkie since I was about eleven years old.  I'm not about to stop now.

                              Here is the statement from Obama that I referred to earlier (emphasis added):

                              Part of the reason that we have had a faith outreach in our campaigns is precisely because I don’t think the LGBT community or the Democratic Party is served by being hermetically sealed from the faith community and not in dialogue with a substantial portion of the electorate, even though we may disagree with them.

                              To me, and to others, this implies that Obama thinks that gays (and Democrats!) are somehow separated from "the faith community."  

                              He made this statement in an interview with The Advocate:

                              http://www.advocate.com/...

                              None of this means I won't support Obama as the nominee--of course I will.  But I have every right to take these things into consideration when I exercise my primary vote.  I haven't yet decided who I'll vote for, but I'll continue to research and think about it.  I don't even know for sure which candidates will still be available to vote for on Feb. 5.

                              There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                              by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 08:29:36 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh.. (0+ / 0-)

                            I honestly don't know what he believes other than that we shouldn't criticise the Republicans too harshly because we want them to compromise with us.  

                            You know he believes this because???  Where do you get this stuff???

                            The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                            by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:46:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  I got it from the diary he posted (0+ / 0-)

                              here at Daily Kos.

                              http://www.dailykos.com/...

                              There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

                              by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 08:15:49 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  I read it twice (1+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                Boston Boomer

                                and still didn't get what you got.  In fact, what you were trying to say on this thread about being civil in order to have a conversation is what I read.  How does that translate into we shouldn't criticize Republicans too harshly because we want them to compromise with us?

                                I guess it comes down to perspectives again.

                                The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                                by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 08:32:57 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                        •  If this diary hurt you, I am sorry for that. (0+ / 0-)

                          My expression can be vivid and Boston Boomer has represented what I was trying to say better than I did.  When I say and do things that touch on issues like sexuality or race, the question I ask myself is -  would I do it or say if they were heterosexual or white/pink/blue?   If the answer is yes, then it would be condescending and rude to do otherwise.  It presumes that "it" is weak and wants or needs to be protected.  I got this from working around people with handicaps.  I really didn't mean to hurt you if I did.

                          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

                          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:16:54 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You didn't hurt me (0+ / 0-)

                            You made yourself look petty and racist.  If you did not intend this, then perhaps it would behoove you to spend some time reading the comment thread and learn.
                            FWIW...when you got the comment about the differences in income your response

                            Have to ask.  Do you think he is (will be) unduly impressed by power and wealth since he has so little

                            was condescending at best. He's been in public office for a while now.  Betting he's met plenty of rich people.  He went to Harvard Law.  Rich folks there too.

                            Can you see how determined you are to find fault?  Can you draw a line from the misleading way you started this diary and the false conclusions you seemed determined to make? When challenged you simply came up with another off the wall question.

                            He won a primary against the Daley machine in Chicago and got downstate illinois which is predominately white to vote for him as US Senator.  He has endorsements from former opponents. In his US Senate campaign one of his commercials was done by a prominent state republican.

                            He doesn't walk on water unless you count those icy southside streets.  He doesn't hide or pander.  He never had to before and he doesn't now.  

                            Finally, if you didn't mean to inject race into the discussion why did you?  If you dislike celebrity endorsements why not write a diary about that.  Of course then you would have to write that Barbara Streisand endorsed Hillary because they are both white women.  I don't believe that do you?  That however is the logical extension of your argument about Obama and Oprah.

                            The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

                            by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:43:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Look, you have your pov; and I am trying to (0+ / 0-)

                              acknowledge it.  I didn't bring race into this.  Her fans and the local newspaper thought that Obama and Oprah did.  If he did, it was divisive as were the other incidents I brought in.  If he is divisive what does that do to his unity campaign, which was the point of the... You know what.  Just never mind. You intend to remain defensive, and I can't change that.  Even though Barack Obama is half white, all put downs must be meant for his black half which obviously makes them racist.  

                              I am rapidly concluding that this is about personality.  You like someone's style or you don't. You obviously see something in Barack's style that you like that I don't.  In 04, I felt very strongly about Dean.  In 08, I am not emotionally invested in any of them.  So be it and good luck to you and your candidate. If he is elected, I hope he meets everyone of your expectations for everyone's sake.  

                              ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

                              by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 08:34:38 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

        •  . (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MadAsHellMaddie

          Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

          My choices: 1. Obama. 1. Edwards. ... 9,999,999. Hillary.

          by blue vertigo on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:39:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see Obama as preachy (0+ / 0-)

        so much.  I experience him more as lecturing.  He comes across to me more as intellectual and academic--which I find attractive.  I just want to know what he is actually going to do and I can't get answers.

        There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

        by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:34:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Call (0+ / 0-)

          !-800-GOD.  
          Nobody knows what anybody is goingto do.  You can evaluate the probability based on what they've done, what they said and whether or not you believe what you hear.  That's true for anybody running.

          The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay

          by Robinswing on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:37:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So what do you base your vote on? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dkmich

            What the person looks like or sounds like?  What they say?

            There are some things that Obama has said and done that I don't like.  There are others that I like very much.  I'm practically looking for reasons to vote for him, because I like the guy and if he were president, just that alone would represent positive change.

            But I need to know more than that to vote for someone. And when I try to get specifics from his supporters, I get mostly hostility back.  I've had a couple of Obama supporters respond politely to my questions but with vague answers and the rest have mostly been hostile when I simply asked what they think Obama will do to change things and how he will do it.  I'm not looking for a written guarantee, that would be silly.  I'd just like someone to articulate what he has convinced them of.

            There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

            by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:57:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I'll try that lens and see if it helps. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Boston Boomer

          I also have an aversion to authority figures, however.

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:18:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I haven't seen this much stretching (11+ / 0-)

    since I gave someone an Atomic Wedgie in 5th grade.

    McCain's 3AM ad is really a Flomax commercial.

    by jhecht on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:14:27 PM PDT

  •  Wow. This is pretty weak. (23+ / 0-)

    If the most you have to go on is that Barack Obama appeals to different parts of his personality when speaking to different audiences (a strategy espoused by virtually every teacher of rhetoric since the Greeks), and making accusations about his character with absolutely no basis for doing so, then you really need to reconsider some things.

    One of the things you might want to consider is "why can't I sell the candidate I support on his merits rather than writing a personal hit diary against his opponent, who might well be our nominee?"

    This diary isn't a deep primary analysis, questioning candidates' positions and records.  It isn't a discussion of where your candidate stacks up against Obama with regards to their abilities to see their positions through into law.  Hell, it isn't even good rhetorical analysis; if one of my 100-level students wrote this about anyone, it would be virtually covered in red ink.  It's just a weak-ass hit diary.

    Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

    by mistersite on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:17:03 PM PDT

    •  Doesn't matter.... (0+ / 0-)

      Positive or negative, the opposition loads in and hijacks...

      ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

      by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:21:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hijacks? (5+ / 0-)

        Please point out to me exactly how I didn't engage your "argument" (such as it is).

        Further, I ask you again: Why can't you sell your candidate on his merits without bashing fellow Democrats?  Are you having a hard time coming up with reasons to vote for him?  If not, may I suggest you start writing about those rather than writing lame hit pieces on other candidates and then accusing their supporters of "hijacking" when they call out crap for what it is?

        Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

        by mistersite on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:26:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See, you don't listen. (0+ / 0-)

          I didn't say YOU hijacked.  Are you feeling guilty?

          ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

          by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:39:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Has it ever occurred to you (0+ / 0-)

          that some of us might be actually trying to understand where Obama is coming from because it is starting to look like he might be our nominee.  We all want to support the nominee, don't we?  I know I do.

          There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

          by Boston Boomer on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:59:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I have to disagree with you. (0+ / 0-)

      a strategy espoused by virtually every teacher of rhetoric since the Greeks

      The Greeks just had good PR.  It was espoused well before the Greeks, rhetorically speaking that is.

      A person's character is measured by how they treat everyone. Not just your pet group.

      by Tempus Figits on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:38:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Knowing your audience (0+ / 0-)

      and adapting your content, structure, and delivery to best suit the audience and the occasion is a fundamental communication strategy, taught in any 100-level public speaking course.

      It's an impressive skill, actually. Instead of delivering the same material by rote time after time, a good speaker will consider in advance with whom he's speaking, what's important to them, and how best to deliver his message. By engaging the audience's sympathies and interest, he's in a better position to communicate his message effectively and persuasively.

      This diary shows where reading without comprehension can lead.

      "The world's a mess and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible

      by BobzCat on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 01:25:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So be sure to only say what is acceptable (0+ / 0-)

        in the moment.  While we are discussing reading comprehension, the point is that Obama appears to be using race to gain black votes.  He also appears to have developed a southern drawl to gain southern votes.  Oooh, now I've done it.  I must be a drawlist.

        ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

        by dkmich on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:19:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You certainly are eclectic, (7+ / 0-)

    As seen in the straws you pull from one place or another...  And yet never put them into place.

    One failure after another and the final result is anarchy. -edscan

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:18:13 PM PDT

  •  If you really want to help out your candidate (9+ / 0-)

    Try writing a diary along the lines of what I've been doing lately.

    I know, I know, it's much harder to write a positive diary emphasizing your candidates strengths without feeling the primal urge to bash the rest of our field, but what the heck, give it a try.

    Also, I don't have any respect for anyone who questions the character of any of our fine candidates.  They have made mistakes, some of them have made some really big mistakes, but I don't doubt any of their commitment to the cause.

    This is a question of who is the best candidate to lead America right now.  If all you've got is "don't trust Obama" then I think we're doing pretty well.