Daily Kos

AIPAC...Israel...and the Joos

Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:40:13 PM PDT

Okay, there was a sudden influx today of diaries decrying the influence of "the Jewish Lobby," referring to AIPAC. There was a backlash by many calling these diaries anti-Smeitic followed by a wave of responses defending these diaries and decrying the tendency of people to call any attack on AIPAC anti-Semitic. Well, this is the kind of exchange that goes on ad nauseum. And really, there are some basic points that people ignore in the hysteria. So, here I want to discuss some problems with this whole exchange that really should be blatantly obvious.

Maybe, just maybe, this will raise the quality of discourse when it comes to certain issues (yeah right).

I think many people get very touchy around these issues. And for good reason. Here are the difficulties I see with these discussions, the red issues that make people touchy:

  1. Jews do indeed have a long history of being discriminated against, often quite violently, that rightly makes us touchy. Part of the long history of discrimination are the claims of a "Jewish conspiracy" and claims of Jewish split loyalties. These twin accusations have been used against Jews, almost always unfairly, since the time of ancient Rome and has led to many pogroms, murders and other atrocities. This long history makes Jews in general highly suspicious of anyone who talks about Jewish conspiracies, questions the loyalty of Jews in general or who is too quick to lump Jews together.

Let's take the example of calling AIPAC "the Jewish Lobby." Quite simply, this implies that AIPAC is representative of Jews in general, rather than representative of a small group of right wing Jews and a small group of right wing Christians, which is actually what it is representative of. Calling it "the Jewish Lobby" negates the diversity of Jewish opinion including the many of us who aren't too fond of AIPAC. This immediately sets off alarm bells in those who know history. It is precisely similar smearing of boundaries between a particular group who happened to be Jewish (say the Zealots or the Jewish Marxist organizations in Russia in the early 1900's) and Jews in general that led to considerable bloodshed. Russians slaughtered Jews indiscriminantly because some Jews supported Polish independence. The Poles also slaughtered Jews in general because some Jews supported Tsarist Russia. The Jews caught it from both sides precisely because of such a smearing. And there are hundreds of such incidents through modern history.

Anyone who wants to criticize any organization had best not blithely refer to that organization in too general terms. What if I referred to NAMBLA as "the gay lobby." Or al-Qaeda as "the Muslim lobby." I would be rightly attacked. It is no more legit to refer to AIPAC as "the Jewish lobby." This is not just a matter of semantics or quibbling. It is pretty critical in groups where the entire group has been accused of the sins of individual members. The assumption by some right wingers that gays are somehow child molesters is completely contrary to facts. Yet to refer to NAMBLA as "the gay lobby" would be to imply legitimacy of that assumption. Some people assume all Muslims are closet terrorists. THis is wrong and there is evidence that Muslim Americans are better integrated into our society than many other groups. Yet referring to al-Qaeda as "the Muslim Lobby" would give legitimacy to that assumption. Similarly, referring to AIPAC as "the Jewish Lobby" is factually incorrect and implies some kind of pernicious Jewish conspiracy. It resurrects ghosts of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the accusations of split loyalty.

This one example is repeated in many diaries. As soon as someone who is criticizing AIPAC or Israel starts referring to "Jews" instead of "AIPAC" or "Israel" or anytime someone questions the loyalty of an American Jew because he/she supports Israel, they are crossing a border into territory that history has taught us to be wary of. And it is unnecessary! There is no reason to smear the boundaries between AIPAC and Jews in general, Israel and Jews in general, or even Likud and Israelis in general. Jews, like any group, are a diverse, rather squabbling and fractous group. And anytime we feel lumped together too much raises our hackles. Given the history of what happens when the larger society starts talking about Jewish conspiracies and questioning Jewish loyalties, we have reason to be concerned.

And it isn't just paranoia. Anti-Semitism has been on the rise since 9/11. Up until 2004 it was at a post-WW II high in America and worldwide. It dipped slightly, then rose again in 2006. This is not isolated. It is part of a broad increase in intolerance nationally and worldwide. Interestingly, 9/11 triggered more of a rise in anti-Semitism than it did a rise in anti-Muslim incidents, thouhg both went way up. Hate rhetoric is on the rise and hate crimes are on the rise. Mostly the hatred comes from the right. Right wing talk show hosts and politicians advocating violence and denegrating Jews and Muslims...and then right wing thugs carrying out hate crimes. Hate crimes against blacks and gays are also on the rise, but the same kind of hate rhetoric is directed at them from the right. So the rise in hate crimes against Jews is not isolated. But it wasn't in Tsarist Russia either...or in Nazi Germany...or during the Spanish Inquisition. Intolerance often is a broad front, not directed against just one group.

So, with a history of such violence accompanied by a rise in both hate rhetoric and crimes, we ALL need to be worried about broad generalizations and condemnations that make reference to entire groups of people like Jews, Muslims, blacks, gays...or pretty much any large group.

You want to attack AIPAC? Fine. I am likely to agree since I am more of a NJDC kind of person than an AIPAC kind of person. But if you start using the term "Jew" when you are referring to AIPAC in particular, I am going to rapidly quesiton exactly what you mean by your attack.

  1. The Israel/Palestine issue is a very important one to many people and one with no easy solutions. Too often we get caught up with anger at one side or the other and in our anger against one side, wind up cutting the other side too much slack. Let's start with two statements: both sides are mostly just people who want to live their lives; and both sides have extremists who have committed atrocities.

Let me elaborate on the latter. Israel has indeed committed atrocities against Palestinians, and does deserve criticism for those atrocities. Such criticism per se is NOT anti-Semitic. Palestine has indeed committed atrocities against Israelis and does deserve criticism for those atrocities. Such criticism is NOT a justification of Israel's injustices against Palestinians. Arab nations have indeed committed atrocities against BOTH Israelis AND Palestinians and deserve criticism for those atrocities. Such criticism is NOT a justification of Israel's injustices against Palestinians.

All sides in this have done horrible things. And there are people on both sides who want the elimination of the other side. And therein lies something very important. The elimination of EITHER nation would require genocide. Israel AND Palestine were created by the UN from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire. This is the only reason either nation currently exists. Since the time of ancient Rome, neither nation had any independent existence and seldom any recognition as a group with nationalist aspirations. You hear more about Israeli nationalism far earlier than you hear about Palestinian nationalism, but the bottom line is there were Palestinians and Jews living there since the very earliest times (both are probably descended from native populations according to genetic analysis), there were nationalist aspirations from both groups at the time the Ottoman Empire crumbled, and the UN gave both nationalists movements a nation. From that momment the atrocities from all sides took over. Actually all sides were committing atrocities earlier, right down to terrorist acts. But things spiraled out of control when the Arab nations invaded, in effect successfully destroying Palestine before it began and trying unsuccessfully to destroy Israel. Had Israel and Palestine EACH had a chance to establish a genuine existence, modern history would be far different.

Both sides have grievences. But there is no viable solution except to negotiate a fulfillment of the UN's two state plan. Any other solution would lead to genocide, I am convinced. I get grief from fellow Jews sometimes because I support Palestine. And I get grief from anti-Israel people because I support Israel. But I do not see any option but to support both states and hope for a solution that gives both a viable economy and infrastructure, giving people a REASON to have peace.

Opposing Israeli actions makes sense. But to imply all Jews support Israel's atrocities does not. Nor does it even make sense to blame all Israelis for the atrocities that have been committed any more than it makes sense to blame the Daily Kos community for the actions of the Bush Administration. It is quite possible to support Israel and still be pro-peace. But I find it is often hard to take a position I define as "Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine, Pro-Peace" because sometimes anyone who claims to be pro-Israel is lumped in with Likud and AIPAC and anyone who supports Palestine is lumped in with Hamas.

The heated arguements that arise often is due to a.) the smearing of boundaries such that a large group (Jews...Muslims...) are implied to be part of the actions of a subgroup (AIPAC...Likud...al-Qaeda...) and b.) the tendancy of the general Israel/Palestine debate to be dominated by the extremists, those who deny the right of one nation or the other and is willing to accept genocide as part of the solution. In this kind of climate of debate, it is very difficult for moderate voices to be heard. The debates spirals out of control and it may well be some well-meaning people come off anti-Semitic (or anti-Muslim) without intending too. Then when confronted with that anti-Semitism (or anti-Muslim bias) they respond defensively, defending their bigotry rather than clarifying it properly.

I am not sure if I have this all precisely the way I want it to sound. My goal is to give credence to both sides while clarifying the need to be careful how things are phrased because of very real history of intolerance and current intolerance.

Comments? Agreement? Disagreement?

Tags: Israel, Palestine, Jews, anti-Semitism, AIPAC, third rail (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 105 comments

  •  You forget the big one (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sunbro
    Hidden by:
    Shane Hensinger

    Neocon tools are dragging every jews in their effort to instigate another war with Iran.

    After the NIE, things turns ugly. Specially when the usual neocon spinner start screming on TV trying to spin away the NIE.

    Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

    by fugue on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 02:42:04 PM PDT

    •  Except (15+ / 0-)

      I honestly don't know that many Jews who support an invasion of Iran. YES the same right wing Jews who support AIPAC do...but most of your average New York Jews do not. We're really a pretty leftist and pro-peace bunch!

      •  The problem is... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rusty Pipes, ShadowSD, Mr Stagger Lee

        Jews may not agree with AIPAC, but that doesn't stop AIPAC from speaking for Jews.

      •  Hell, even AIPAC wasn't (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MajorFlaw, Doodad, zemblan

        calling for an invasion of Iran.

        I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

        by arielle on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:15:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it depends on your definition of "calling:" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          With over 100 people on its staff, AIPAC uses a variety of means to lobby politicians to adopt its positions.  According to Mearsheimer and Walt:

          Some in the lobby have moved beyond vague calls for "regime change" and begun to make the case that a nuclear-armed Iran is intolerable and the United States must be prepared to use force to deal with the problem.
          ...
          AIPAC has also played a central role in publicizing the threat from Iran and pushing forward the military option.  Its annual conference for the past two years has put the Iran issue up in bright lights and emphasized the imperative of ending its nuclear program.  Indeed John Hagee, who heads Christians United for Israel, was invited to address the 2007 conference.  Hagee had told the Jerusalem Post in 2006 that "I would hope the United States would join Israel in a military pre-emptive strike to take out the nuclear capability of Iran for the salvation of Western civilization."  He did not disappoint the attendees at the Marach 2007 conference, telling them, "It is 1938; Iran is Germany, and Ahmadinejad is the new Hitler.  We must stop Iran's nuclear threat and stand boldly with Israel."  He received multiple standing ovations.  By contrast, the New York Post reports that Senator Hillary Clinton "drew grumbles" the previous month when she suggested to an AIPAC audience that it might make sense to engage with Iran before employing stronger measures.

          Perhaps the best evidence of AIPAC's influence on U.S. policy toward Iran was revealed in mid-March 2007, when Congress was attempting to attach a provision to a Pentagon spending bill that would have required President Bushto get its approval before attacking Iran.  In light of what has happened in the Iraq War, this was a popular measure on Capitol Hill and appeared likely to gain approval.  It was also consistent with Congress's constitutional authority.  But AIPAC was firmly opposed, because it saw the legislation as effectively taking the military option against Iran off the table.  It went to work in the halls of Congress, and with the help of a handful of pro-Israel representatives -- Gary Ackerman, Elliot Engel, and Shelley Berkley (D-NV) -- the provision was removed from the spending bill.  One month later, when Congressman Michael Capuano (D-MA) was asked why the language on Iran was stripped out of the bill, he answered with one word: "AIPAC."  Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) offered the same assessment. (pp. 300-01)

          Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

          by Rusty Pipes on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:06:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  you make some very good points. (4+ / 0-)

        the right wing in both countries is dangerous in my humble opinion. it isn't a matter of your faith or ethic background but political beliefs and ways of implementing them.

      •  There is another side to this (0+ / 0-)

        This is mainly in reply to your diary. A good diary, and I agree with most of the points you make. However, as usual, there is more than one side to it.

        More often than not, people face charges of antisemitism as soon as they criticize AIPAC, the Israeli Lobby or any Israeli policy. It is absurd, but anyone who have voiced public opposition to Israeli policies, who is not a Jew, can certainly attest to this. In fact, even Jews who take such positions are often called "self-hating Jews".

        So you are right, in that Israeli positions are often confused with Jewish positions and the line is blurred, the only question is, who started it and why? In loosely following the rationale of "follow the money", you can see how people that I talk about, gain by blurring these lines, whereas DKos diarist really work against their own arguments when making this mistake.

        Proud Sponsor of Hope '08
        My Political (and moral) Compass: -9.00, -8.72

        by bmozaffari on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:20:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did you mean to write that (7+ / 0-)

      neocon tools are dragging along every jew in their effort to instigate another war with Iran? If so, would you care to provide some links to support that statement?

      "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

      by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:12:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary... (6+ / 0-)

    Certainly more rational than most I've seen on the subject.

  •  Thanks - very balanced and good in this sea.... (4+ / 0-)

    of name calling.

    I have never been comfortable commenting in AIPAC diaries, 'cause I don't know enough and, not being Jewish, I am worried about being called an anti-semite.

    The only thing I would add is that I don't like ANY PAC dictating/swaying US foreign policy.  And I don't want ANY US troops fighting someone else's war or grievance.

    And, unfortunately for me since I can't stand his guts, Joe Lieberman is always out front for AIPAC.  They would do well to shove him into some deep dark closet (preferably with a few Blackwater nuts there, too!...oh, and lock the door and throw the key away!

    •  I second that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Terra Mystica, ShainZona

      This is so important:

      this implies that AIPAC is representative of Jews in general, rather than representative of a small group of right wing Jews and a small group of right wing Christians

      That's exactly right. But near as I can tell, AIPAC (and their supporters) are real big on flinging the epithet "anti-semite" around, any time someone starts asking questions about their policies.

      If people fear being called a name, then they don't contribute to discussion, as your post clearly demonstrates. If a lot of people fear this, then discussion gets shut down altogether.

      That's not good. It has to stop. We have to quit fearing being called names. Sticks and stones...

      On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

      by o the umanity on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:31:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent diary (6+ / 0-)

    Thank you for the clear and unbiased presentation of reality.

    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

    by kyril on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:04:09 PM PDT

  •  Here's the Thing (0+ / 0-)

    Jews do indeed have a long history of being discriminated against, often quite violently, that rightly makes us touchy.

  •  Good diary. (3+ / 0-)

    The NAMBLA parallel is particularly clever.  

    Toss up a tip jar.

    I will vote for whoever or whatever the Democrats nominate -- animal, vegetable or mineral.

    by Finck II on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:13:28 PM PDT

  •  One thing... (11+ / 0-)

    How about not labeling Israel's critics as anti-Israel? You criticize Israel, but you don't see yourself as anti-Israel do you?

    Thing is, if it's fair to label Israel's critics as anti-Israel, then it follows that one can label PA's critics as anti-Palestinian or "anti-Palestine". Doesn't this come across as a bit offensive?

    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

    by callmecassandra on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:16:38 PM PDT

  •  Good diary (5+ / 0-)

    as for me....well, one of my highest rated diaries ever was
    I love Israel, I hate AIPAC

    689 comments, 234 recs, and very little flaming at all

  •  AIPAC Is Just One More (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SteppingRazor

    powerful special interest group which has too much power in regard to U.S. policy.

    Note that there's zero discussion/mention by ALL of the POTUS candidates of the upcoming new ten year "aid" package for Israel which is guaranteed to include MORE money and weapons than the last ten year deal.

    why? and why a ten year package instead of 4-5? because this helps keep the whole stinking mess off the radar of we the sappy taxpayers.

    spare me the "Israel is surrounded by enemies" empty rhetoric which is aped by even John Edwards who seems willing to take everyone else on-- but not Israel.

    Israel has demonstrated again and again it is quite capable of taking care of/protecting itself. the notion they need more and more money and weapons "to survive" is a farce and the continued practice is a guarantee of NO peace in the middle east.

    "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

    by Superpole on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:33:00 PM PDT

    •  I disagree... (0+ / 0-)

      But it is a legit viewpoint and phrased in a reasonable way. I take it you feel the same about our aid to Egypt...and South Korea...etc?

      I have a different view. But I understand where you are coming from and it isn't really my point in this diary to advocate for support of Israel. Personally I'd like to see support for Israel and Palestine to build a viable economy and ecology for the whole area. But a more isolationist view was traditionally the standard American foreign policy for a long time.

      •  VERY Weak Response (0+ / 0-)

        where are the Egyptian or S Korean lobbys which funnel money to the opponents of U.S. congressional members or candidates who happen to challenge or criticize the current policy toward Israel? who are they?

        show me the link proving the U.S. gives as much money and weapons/military aid to Egypt or S. Korea as is given to Israel.

        cut the crap, mole333.

        Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. From 1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, having recently been supplanted by Iraq. Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel.

        Over the years, Israel has developed an advanced industrial economy, which, according to the World Bank, places it among the top 40 richest nations in terms of per capita income (between Greece and Cyprus respectively). With Israel becoming more economically self-sufficient, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a joint session of Congress in 1996 that Israel's need for economic aid would be reduced over time.

        http://www.cfr.org/...

        "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

        by Superpole on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:54:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i do think that every aspect of our foreign (0+ / 0-)

        policy should be open to debate and that includes our relationship with israel. yes, they probably do need help from us, but we do need to discuss this issue. the right wing in both countries seriously worries me. thanks

  •  Off Topic (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Terra Mystica

    Is the server screwy tonight?

    It seems uncommonly difficult to stay signed in....

  •  Israel deserves legit criticism (0+ / 0-)

    But when the diarist deflects the attack upon "Jooos", then it is an obvious hit piece by a troll.

    Burn this dishonest diary.

    I want a Democratic Party I can be proud of, not one that is just a bit better than the Republicans. Replace Reid and Pelosi, say NO to Hillary!

    by Opinionated Ed on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 03:49:18 PM PDT

    •  Dishonest diary? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueness, JedReport

      Well...sorry, not dishonest. Curious, did you really read what I wrote?

      •  Trolling since UID 22,798? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        blueness

        And you've only posted 30 diaries in the past 3 months?

        Obvious troll.

        The Jed Report | Barack Obama for President

        by JedReport on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:45:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I found the title inflammatory (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Terra Mystica

        when I first saw it.  It has become fairly common among some defenders of Israel on this site to derail diaries critical of Israel by using "the/da Joos" as an insinuation that the diarist is an anti-Semite.  Honestly, I was expecting this to be another of those diaries where we are told that anti-Semitism is running rampant on the site -- supplemented by examples of said comments drawn from HC by trolls banned 18 months ago -- which is only proof that I/P discussions are dangerous for this site and should be banned.  I was surprised to see your name with the title, when that was my assumption of the content.  I was surprised in part because, when I first started participating in I/P here in 2005, you were one of the few commenters who claimed to be both pro-Israel and anti-AIPAC (anyone who claims that it has always been easy to criticize AIPAC here has a poor memory).

        After reading two other AIPAC diaries posted yesterday (especially your comments posted therein) I have a better sense of why you chose the title.  Still, after reading your diary, I think your title does not do it justice.

        You have written an interesting diary.  As is often the case, I agree with you on some points, but not on others (mostly involving historical interpretation).

        Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

        by Rusty Pipes on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:13:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for commenting (0+ / 0-)

          Yeah...the title was meant to be a bit inflammatory...and very tongue in cheek. Sometimes that's the best way to draw readers...get them expecting to be angry at you. Recently tried something of that sort and it was a complete failure. But usually I find it gets more readers than if you have a tame title.

          Ultimately I would like to see discussions of I/P become more constructive. That can't happen unless both sides understand eachother with somewhat more empathy. That is one thing I have developed largely by interacting with both Israelis and Muslims. Being pretty well able to get along with people, I can get along with both. And being pretty well opinionated, I tend not to avoid te difficult discussions. And when people who respect eachother have a discussion where they disagree on some pretty touchy things, as long as the respect stays paramount, they can come away with a better understanding.

          Hence a diary like this. And I hope it helps the overall dialogue...even with an inflammatory title.

          Thanks for reading and thanks for commenting.

          •  There's a fine line (0+ / 0-)

            between provocative and inflammatory.  Clearly, with hundreds of diaries a day, an attention grabbing title can make a difference in whether one's diary gets read or not.  Even so, inflammatory titles are discouraged in the FAQ.

            Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

            by Rusty Pipes on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 07:45:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Been thinking about this (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes

              Been thinking about your comment for two reasons. One is because I think I have at times FAILED to make the distinction between provocative and inflamatory. My "Happy Birthday Hitler" (attached to a diary on the Wearsaw Ghetto uprising which litterally spoiled what was intended as a birthday present to Hitler) and "I am SO Disappointed in ALL of you" (attached to a diary intended to give some publicity to Pretty Bird Woman House and related issues, and re-introducing a broader agenda to empower Native Americans that unfortunately came off strident and nagging) are two examples where most people felt I crossed the line. I will say that I do not regret the "Happy Birthday Hilter" one because it carried a precise meaning: THIS (the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising) is what I wish upon losers like Hitler for their birthday...but I eventually changed it due to popular dislike. But once again, the inflammatory nature probably DID bring more readers to the diary than if I had done a more sedate title. In the case of the Pretty Bird Woman diary I think my mistake may not have been the title, but was to continue to the tone (meant half jokingly given the effort that HAD been made) into the diary. The snark wound up undetectable and it is one of my worst diaries, ultimately.

              So I have a history of misjudging tone, sometimes for  better, sometimes for worst.

              (For the record, some of my best AND most read blogging diaries had less inflammatory titles: e.g. "The Wonk and the Preacher" and "My Wife Faces Homeland Security.")

              The second reason I was thinking about your comment is that in some ways I think I got THIS title right. I think the sticking point for you and some others is the "Joos" part. I used it specifically because the times I use that is when someone uses an inflammatory way of approaching the I/P issue from the Palestinian side. I come from my own pro-Israel bias, so I am one of the ones who responds to inflammatory pro-Palestinian posts using the term "Joos." And what I am addressing in this diary is WHY, though I can be critical of AIPAC and Israel, and though I am fully in favor of a viable, strong Palestinian state, I respond that way. I am highlighting precisely why I personally use the term "Joos" when I respond to some people's diaries and why I think some diaries intending to advocate for Palestine or oppose AIPAC come off inflammatory in a specifically anti-semetic way for me.

              The title may well be a problem, as you and others think. But I think it emphasizes PRECISELY what I am trying to address in the diary, which involves issues that DO become inflamatory. The issue I am addressing is how an issue that is difficult but with reasonable people on all sides can so easily devolve into crap. I think the title captures that.

              In the case of "Happy Birthday Hitler" I still want to stand by the title but the response was so overwhelmingly for changing it that I did. In this case, the title is again what I want but the response has mostly been positive (from both people I usually agree with and those I don't usually agree with on the issue) that I think it is worth keeping.

              Now, when I WROTE the title, I did not think as carefully about it. I did think carefully about the content of the diary and how to phrase things, but the title was immediately what I wanted. THat means I was working on a purely emotional level and thus inviting a purely emotional response. With such an emotional issue, that is very dangerous and, as you and others point out, can subsume the real meaning of the diary in the emotional response to the title. But because it is precisely the emotional response to the way people phrase things that I am talking about in this diary, I think it is an appropriate way to title the diary.

              On the issue of I/P let me just say that I really do want two viable states. I once was solidly in favor of a one-state, purely secular, solution. I have come to believe that is impossible and asking for a Balkans-style genocide on all sides. But I still support several sides of the issue. One of my main causes this past year has been tree planting to counter global warming (I have donated to plant about one tree per day for the year in many parts of the world). One place I focused on was the Levant. I highlighted tree planting in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon as being critically linked ecologically. The three nations cannot be ecologically separated, and their economies are so closely tied to their ecology, that I think tree planting in all three is a major solution for all three nations. THAT is the kind of thing I favor. I also favor other economic cooperation (e.g. a group that tries to link Palestinian and Israeli companies and encourage moderate voices on both sides, like Peaceworks). But how do you get people paying attention to the middle ground?

              It seems to me that you first get their attention THEN you present the middle ground. That is the approach I took to the title. You think, I gather, I miscalculated. I think I calculated correctly. I don't care who is right. I just want a lot of people in an ecologically and politically difficult area to have good lives and my own children have a place of refuge if anti-semitism keeps growing.

    •  Maybe you should read past the title n/t (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueness, JedReport

      Anyone who is wavering on whether to support our nominee in November should be tied to a chair and forced to watch the last Republican debate.

      by cardinal on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:22:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yup, i would agree. the use of that term (0+ / 0-)

      seriously turns me off. a fair and resonable discussion of all foreign policy issues should be undertaken.

  •  Fundamental Issue (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SteppingRazor

    Both sides have grievences. But there is no viable solution except to negotiate a fulfillment of the UN's two state plan. Any other solution would lead to genocide, I am convinced.

    My problem starts right here. I don't agree with that assumption. Why not try a one-state solution? I know, nobody agrees with me on this, from the left to the right, from Isreali to Palestinian, from Jewish to Arab. Yet, everybody seems accept without question a paradigm that has failed continuously for over sixty years.

    I'm firmly believe that the governments of the United States and Israel are more than capable of negotiating an arrangement that would absolutely ensure the safety and security of Jews in any new joint bi-national state and allow for continued unlimited aliya.

    In any event, the practical viability of the two-state solution was probably ended years ago with the spread of Jewish settlements in the West Bank: I don't see the Israeli government ever forcibly remove a half of a million devoutly religious Jews from the heartland of the Holy Land -- the Biblical "Judea," from which we derive our name.

    It's obviously not settled fact that the two-state solution is the best, given that no one has ever successfully make it happen. Even if everyone believes something, if it's not working, you gotta at least take a look at the alternatives.

    •  Well... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Eric S, zemblan

      I once thought a single state solution was worth considering. Problem is, no one really seems to want that UNLESS it means the elimination of the other. The basis of all negotiation from way before 1948 has been a two state solution.

      I will say that the Israeli government HAS moved settlers forcibly from Sinai and then Gaza. They will do it if they decide it is worth it. Problem is when they start settling MORE settlers right when they start negotiating, as they just did, that is a big problem. And yes, where you draw the boundary is a problem with a two state solution. But neither side wants a one-state solution and the parallel would essentially be Yugoslavia. Forcing groups that don't really like eachother to share a nation doesn't tend to work. I guess when Israelis and Palestinians can interact about the level of the different groups in Switzerland or Belgium, then a one state solution would be possible. But they view eachother more like the Serbs and Croats and a one state solution turned out disasterous there.

      •  Good Points, but (0+ / 0-)

        I will say that the Israeli government HAS moved settlers forcibly from Sinai and then Gaza. They will do it if they decide it is worth it.

        The Sinai and Gaza are nothing similar to the West Bank. Those were small and peripheral, and even so it wasn't easy.

        The West Bank settlements are far more populous and far more central to the Holy Land. For religious Jews who are caught up in the Zionist spirit, they would not recognize the validity of the State of Israel in attempting to remove them. There's already enough of that kind of conflict in Jerusalem that secular Jews are moving out. If the Israeli government is not capable even of stopping the construction of new settlements every day, why do you think they'll be capable of dismantling them any time soon?

        •  I think... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zemblan

          I think you underestimate the political balls it took and the scale of moving the Gaza and Sinai settlements. That said, I know there are definitely parts of the West Bank that are far more dear to far more Israelis. But...if they decided it would bring lasting peace, I am convinced they would do it. Splitting Jerusalem is probably the biggest sticking point which a one-state solution would solve. But I don't think the benefits of a one-state soluton would outweigh the resistance and the basic fear and loathing both sides have for one another.

          •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

            I think you underestimate the political balls it took and the scale of moving the Gaza and Sinai settlements.

            I don't at all underestimate that. It seems like it literally killed Ariel Sharon. That's why I think it's just an impossibility that they will dismantle the West Bank settlements. And ALL neutral observers consider that to be an essential pre-condition for a Palestinian state.

      •  Analogies (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SteppingRazor

        I guess when Israelis and Palestinians can interact about the level of the different groups in Switzerland or Belgium, then a one state solution would be possible. But they view eachother more like the Serbs and Croats and a one state solution turned out disasterous there.

        How about South Africa? In 1985, nobody would've ever believed that Afrikaners and blacks in South Africa would be able to live in the same nation together and Nelson Mandela was in prison, convicted of terrorism.

        Belgium, meanwhile, is moving towards a split right now.

        But there are no analogies, really. It's a radically unique situation. I think a unique bi-national arrangement could be established that would allow for the settlers to stay in the West Bank and the refugees to return to Israel proper, with a special status for the Jews maintained by an international security agreement between the U.N., the U.S. and the current government of Israel.

        I think it's very do-able, but only the U.S. is capable of making it happen, because it would only happen through a third-party intervention. The leadership on both sides have too much to lose, most immediately national/international power. The U.S. will never change its position before we Jews change our position, and thus the discussion about AIPAC.

        •  Croats and Serbs (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eric S

          I will agree that each situation is unique. But, Croats and Serbs are a good analogy because they really are about as similar as you get...about like the Palestinians and Israelis. But they are split by religion and their ethnic identity and are similarly ready to slaughter eachother JUST because of those two things. They would have been FAR better off as a united Slavic nation like Yugoslavia. But they could not hold together despite having very similar needs, interests and even histories.

          As to the US achieving it, MAYBE with someone like Theordore Roosevelet or Jimmy Carter in the White House...MAYBE. But there would be a time I am convinced an equivalent of the Balkan Wars would break out. Both sides can be just as bloodthirsty as the Croats and Serbs were. I can't see it working long term.

          As for Belgium splittiing, don't bet on it. I have been wrong about such things before, but I suspect they prefer talking about it than actually doing it.

          •  Not saying it would be easy (0+ / 0-)

            I would 100% agree with you if it was 1947. But it's 2007, and we've tried this thing for 60 years. How long do we keep banging our head against the brick wall before we decide to try another route?

            As we've said, there are both analogies all over the map, and the truth that there is no analogy. There's only the experience of failure and an untried new paradigm.

        •  It has to be their mutual decision (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zemblan

          Otherwise it can't work. I don't know why we even waste our time debating 1 or 2 states. It's not up to us.

          "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

          by denise b on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 06:39:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  AIPAC (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ronlib

    Nothing but a bunch of Neo-Con Jews and Neo-Con Evangelicals united to send us into their fairy-tale idea of Armageddon. They are probably the most dangerous lobbying group in America, First of all I find it ridiculous that North Americans cannot criticize Israel because most of their people got killed in holocaust. That does not mean they are immune from Criticism, Israel is guilty or equally guilty of the crimes that the Palestinians committed. BTW, I want to note I am not Anti-Semitic or Anti-Jew, nor do I deny the holocauset. I just don't like people claiming Israel is immune from Blame, because they aren't.

  •  Thoughtful diary. I guess my major question is (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes

    why is there no substantial, or even loud Jewish counterpoint to AIPAC in this country?  It seems to me that the broad brush gets incorrectly applied because all we hear is AIPAC seeks this and AIPAC wants that.

    I don't think it's a matter of just funding because there must be plenty of wealthy American Jews that heartily disagree with AIPAC's methods and narrow goals.  It has to be something else like "hold your nose" solidarity or maybe that any broad-based Jewish criticism of Israel is a stab to the heart of Judaism itself, however subconscious, or because haters will use any excuse to pile on criticism, or maybe just a simple fear that any significant criticism will end subsidies.

    There is much criticism of Israel in Israel.  Why is here different?

    It's full of stars... T. Roosevelt: Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind.

    by Terra Mystica on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 04:59:07 PM PDT

    •  There are such groups (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TiaRachel

      It depends on what you mean. I consider NJDC a counter because they are pro-Peace process and oppose interventionist American policies in Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. They are the more progressive Jewish lobby I am familiar with. But there are far more leftist groups, though probably smaller.

      You mainly hear about AIPAC for the same reason in the mainstream media you mostly hear the voice of Bush and Fox News. The media is dominated by a particular viewpoint and it matches AIPAC's.

      But I think there is more criticism of Israel in Israel than here. I know very, very few Israelis who would agree with AIPAC.

      •  I guess that I was trying to understand why there (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        wonmug, Rusty Pipes

        isn't as loud a clamor for a resolution of the I/P problem from the US Jewish Peace front as there is from AIPAC to perpetuate it.

        If I understand you correctly, you say that the megaphone is in the hands of interests like GE that would profit from continuing conflict in the ME, and would also gain from increased "war" ratings.  I don't believe that explains the splintered and underfunded peace effort as a whole (neither of which are bad things, nor reduce the sincerity of the effort).

        I was trying to ask if the Peace side is not self-muting to a great degree because of Israel being part of Jewish identity  (as seen here in Q38, or the hopelessness/skepticism in the whole Israel section).  For some reason Congress does not get to hear the alternative view to AIPAC as forcefully as it does the AIPAC view, despite the what seems to be a much broader belief in the alternative.  Another way to look at it is Pelosi does not make an annual speech to the Israel Policy Forum.

        This AIPAC thing keeps coming up.  Every time it does I keep asking myself the same question, "Why is there not a equal and opposite Jewish voice in the US?"  I've never gotten a good answer, so I figured I ask it here.

        It's full of stars... T. Roosevelt: Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind.

        by Terra Mystica on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 06:18:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interestingly (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eric S, Terra Mystica

          As others have obeserved in this diary, you are more likely to see a loud counter to the AIPAC/Likud view in Israel than you will in the US.

          I do think that there is a media bias that is a big part of it. And there is also the fact that the Jewish peace movement pretty much is a Jewish peace movement, while AIPAC has major support from evangelical Christians, bringing in the whole moral majority lobby.

          Another factor is that the opposition to the AIPAC side is a more subtle thing. As someone else pointed out, it isn't pro-Israel AIPAC vs. anti-Israel peace movement. It is Israel, Right or Wrong AIPAC vs. the pro-Israel but critical of some of their practices and sympathetic to the Palestinians peace movement. It is harder to spin. Now I don't think it HAS to be harder to spin, but let's face facts...the left has always been worse at spinning things than the right in America. So I think AIPAC has had the easier time or is just better at simplifying its message to sound good. The rest of us probably will spend too much time quibbling about the details to come up with any good sound bytes.

          But if you look at voting patterns (as yet someone else pointed out elsewhere in the diary) Jews are overwhelmingly voting against the Bush agenda...if AIPAC really represented Jews in general, wouldn't you see more Jews voting Republican?

          •  good point (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Terra Mystica

            Aipac gives people the impression that Israel is all about right-wing heavy-handedness.

            Getting the other side out is critical for public opinion to change, as well as world opinion.

            I hope some of you will bring this out, because it can reduce anti-Semitism in some kind of domino effect, I believe.

            A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." - Martin Luther King

            by thinkbridge on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:11:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  There are (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueness

      thoughtful counterpoints to AIPAC. Check out this, this, this, and this for starters. And there's also always this.

      •  Agree. Many thoughtful and dedicated counters. (0+ / 0-)

        They just don't achieve the collective voice that AIPAC does.

        It's full of stars... T. Roosevelt: Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind.

        by Terra Mystica on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 06:20:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Unfortunately . . . it's all about $$$. n/t (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica
        •  I hear very little FROM AIPAC. What do you (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          brittain33, blueness

          hear FROM them?

          I think we all tend to hear much more about them, and it is nearly a unanimous chorus of criticism.  I think they have become a lightning rod for both legitimate criticism and anti-Semitism pretending to be legitimate... sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.  

          They may have risen to this position not simply because of their politics, but for some of the very injudicious comments made in their behalf by certain of their leadership, and because it has become the big, faceless (how many AIPAC leaders can you name from memory?), self sustaining bogeyman - and we need bogeymen, don't we?

          Try our famous burgers and dogs.
          -Munson Diner

          by Eric S on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 07:20:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  bingo (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            brittain33, Eric S

            The "loud clamor" is not from AIPAC, but about AIPAC, always coming from people with their hair on fire, on the left or the right, shrieking that AIPAC "owns," "controls," "directs" American lawmakers. Pre-Holocaust it was pretty much socially acceptable to just straight-out accuse Jews of "owning" and "controlling" and "directing" governments. That's a no-no, now. Which is why "AIPAC" is so convenient.

            What I wonder is why there is so rarely any "loud clamor"--particularly from those whose hair is perpetually on fire about AIPAC--about those groups that exercise far more influence over the US government than does AIPAC: the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the arms industry, the oil and gas industry, the firearms lobbyists, the evangelical Christians.

            Though, of course, in truth, I don't wonder at all.

    •  There is some (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Terra Mystica

      most of the Jewish Israeli groups that are critical of Israel have analogues here.

      The problem is that criticism from without is different from criticism from within

      •  Thanks plf515. I asked a difficult question and (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rusty Pipes, plf515

        it probably wasn't the forum to do so.

        What I was trying to get at was how to engage in constructive conversation without invoking the inside/outside response.  I suppose I could have asked this first, but it seemed to me to assume things I didn't know, or even know how to discuss honestly.

        Again, I appreciate your insight.

        It's full of stars... T. Roosevelt: Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind.

        by Terra Mystica on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 06:18:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I welcoome I/P diaries by sensitive people (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          on all sides of the issues.

          Notice I say all sides of the issue*s*.

          One of the problems with many I/P diaries is that people tend to lump the 'enemy' into one group:

          The hegemonic, imperialist Israeli bastards
          vs.
          The fanatic, terrorist-supporting Palestinian slimeballs.

          Well.

          If you start off that way (and many on both sides do) then you are certainly not going to get anywhere useful

          Israeli opinion ranges from Shalom Achshav to Kach, and from Naturei Karta to Shinui - which gets, already, to two issues: The relation between Palestine and Israel and the religious nature of Israel. Intertwined, but separate.

  •  The truth about Joos and War in Iraq and Iran (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mole333, blueness, zemblan

    Politically speaking, Jews are actually one of the most homogeneous ethnic/religious/racial groups in America, on part with African Americans for their level of support for Democrats.

    I'm sure some people won't be able to handle this reality, but in case you happen to be into reality-based views of the world, I'll break down the stats for you.

    (And for every dipshit like Paul Wolfowitz you want to throw up in my face, I'll offer up Paul Wellstone, Russ Feingold, Jon Stewart, and Noam Chomsky. Suck on THAT, schmuckface.)

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    2000:
    79% of Jews voted for Gore
    50% of Catholics voted for Gore
    56% of Protestants voted for Bush

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    2004:
    74% of Jews voted for Kerry
    52% of Catholics voted for Bush
    59% of Protestants voted for Bush.

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    2006:
    87% of Jews voted Democratic
    55% of Catholics voted Democratic
    54% of Protestants voted Republican

    The Jed Report | Barack Obama for President

    by JedReport on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 05:00:33 PM PDT

  •  Why crticize a WHOLE freaking nation (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mole333, arielle, blueness, JedReport

    when it should be be specific policies of governments or groups? Broadbrushing the WHOLE nation of Israel is blatant stereotyping and de facto anti-semitism.

    Please say what you mean or don't say anything.

    A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

    by Doodad on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 05:01:35 PM PDT

  •  great diary and worth reading (0+ / 0-)

    these are contentious points which you've dealt with in a balanced and admirably rational way.

    Advice: Go into international diplomacy - we need you there.

    A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." - Martin Luther King

    by thinkbridge on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:06:50 AM PDT