Daily Kos

A tree, 375 dollars and a tank of gas

Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:52:42 PM PDT

That's what I'm saving every year by making one simple change in my lifestyle.

Earlier this year my family made a pledge, cut our carbon emissions by 50% in 5 years. We are going to shoot for 80%. This year we made a lot of progress. All light bulbs in the house now are CFs, we insulated our home ala Mem in Somerville, our double-paned laminated windows are going in this week, we now carpool (there is no bus to her school) our daughter to school 3 days a week (working towards 5), I bought a grocery cartand walk to  do most grocery shopping.

We still have that hybrid to buy (I really really want the aptera), solar panels to install, etc. Those will have to wait.

But this month I made a simple change that is actually going to have a large impact in comparison to other changes I could have made.

I use a reusable mug for my daily coffee.

I drink about two cups of coffee a day. One in the morning and one after lunch. Because my partner doesn't like coffee or the smell, I go to the local cafe (1 1/2 blocks away) to get my coffee.

It's always been served to me in one of those throwaway paper cups with a sleeve to keep from burning my hands and a plastic lid.

I was aware that these paper cups were not great for the environment, but under the principle of "one step at a time," (where we change our habits one focused step at a time and we've been focusing on keeping the heat off, getting insulation, etc), I hadn't given it much thought.

Till I emptied my trash a couple weeks ago.

I noticed how many cups where in it. In fact, it was the largest, by volume, amount of trash in my trash can. ANd I started doing some calculations.

I work about 250 days a year. On work days I drink at least 2 cups of cafe coffee. That makes for 500 cups I throw away a year, along with cup sleeves and plastic tops.

I weighed a few cups w/ sleeves (without the plastic lids). They weigh about 1.75oz each (I get a large coffee). That's about 50lbs of paper a year. According to this site (link added! sorry...), that's about .72 trees.  Ok, so it's not a perfect calculation and doesn't save exactly a tree, but close enough.

The next calculation is simpler. My neighborhood cafe charges 1.75 for a large cup of coffee. If you bring your own cup, it's 1.00. That's 75cents a cup savings! I had no idea. I brought my cup into the cafe and they said "that'll be 1 dollar." I had to ask to make sure. Yep, the price of coffee without the cup is 75 cents cheaper. Now, I did a little bit of looking around, most places like Starbucks and Peets, only offer a dime discount. We'll, so for those of you going there, that's still 50 dollar saving a year if you drink as much as I do. Still, 50 dollars isn't something to sneeze at. I'm lucky though, for me it's a 375 dollar annual savings!

So starting last week, every time I buy a cup of coffee I put 75 cents into a piggy bank. Every few months or so I'm going to break it and invest the money or donate it.

The tank of gas I think is an huge underestimate. Based on the fuel used to manufacture, transport and dispose/recycle  the paper cup and plastic lid, I'm sure I'm saving more than a tank's worth of fossil fuel and the pollution and greenhouse gas that is producing.

This isn't rocket science or anything that earthshatteringly new, just do a google search for 'bring your own cup' or visit site like "bring your own", a million people have made that change.

And now so have I. We are well on our way to >50% reduction in our carbon footprint.

Make it your habit starting this week. Bring your own cup and save a tree, some money and some greenhouse gases.

Tags: global warming, recycling, lifestyle, environment, Rescued, sustainable energy action (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 65 comments

  •  I hope this gets more than a few comments (29+ / 0-)

    of course, it's not controversial
    but so few actually take these steps

    well done, nice diary

    we all need to take personal steps, in order to be able to go to big companies & investors & governments and demand similar necessary action

  •  I own... 3 or 4 of those. (18+ / 0-)

    large coffee cups that have lids.  They're here at home....

    I'll start carrying one with me.  So I can do without the paper cups.

    I've almost weaned myself of bags at the grocery store--as long as I remember to carry in the reusable bags I have stored in the car, it's good.  And I've made a point of inconveniencing myself several times to go back out and GET the DAMNED bags that I'm pretty good about remembering.  Most of the time.

    Insulation.  Yeah.  We need to do that.

    If Bill Clinton was the first black president... why can't Obama be the first female president? -- wry twinger, DKos, 5 May '08

    by ogre on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:06:15 PM PDT

  •  good on ya =) (11+ / 0-)

    little changes like this can make a big impact in the long run.  plus, you are teaching your children GOOD habits that they can carry into the future.

    one more suggestion: keep a cloth bag in your vehicle at all times.  that way, if you need to pop into a store, you can save the plastic or paper bags, thus saving even more resources.

    John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

    by anna on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:21:27 PM PDT

  •  A tip for the Trekroller link alone (8+ / 0-)

    That thing is great! I'm seriously considering one now.

    Politicook is Food for the Progressive Soul

    by Anne Hawley on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:26:58 PM PDT

  •  Small things do add up (9+ / 0-)

    Good for you and your family for making that commitment.  Your goal is more than most folks would undertake, but I hope more people start making at least small steps.

    I have a coworker who donates $$ to many environmental groups & is an avid outdoorsperson, but who uses a minimum of 4 paper cups a day and never shuts off her office lights when leaving for several hours.

    I'm getting her a coffee mug and a water glass for Christmas.

    •  Good for you, on the gift (0+ / 0-)

      But really --  is this more than the average person would undertake?

      Can't we change that, and say that we believe that at least most people here will want to imitate this type of goal?

      Surely we believe in the need to act. Surely we want to be out front.

      Be good to each other. It matters.

      by AllisonInSeattle on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:37:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a monster 34oz coffee mug (6+ / 0-)

    I fill it up at home before I leave for work.  Lasts all day.

    Sure, it gets room temperature by lunchtime...but the coffee here at work is runny and hardly worth drinking...cold coffee is better than that.

    Buy Mojo Friday gear and support our troops! Much better than a damn magnet.

    by MKinTN on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:29:10 PM PDT

  •  Great diary (8+ / 0-)

    when I clicked on it I was thinking maybe it was about a $375 Christmas tree or something.  :)

    It really bothers me that the coffee chains dole out their coffee not only in a paper cup but also with a paper pot-holder around it.  

    Especially considering that there's NOTHING like a really great cup of coffee, or capuccino, in a ceramic cup!  It really makes a huge difference in how it tastes IMHO.

    Now if we can only get rid of all those plastic bottles, too.  Gotta wonder how much water it takes to manufacture one plastic water bottle.  

    •  Couple things to think about (6+ / 0-)

      I'd much prefer people bring their own cups (and reuse bags including those they get their coffee beans in) or sip at the shop in a real cup. But those paper pot-holders are better than using a second cup which is what so many did before to keep it from being so hot on the hands.

      Also, I don't support buying case after case of bottled water (I support good tap water and bottled water can be a cop-out for the municipality as well) but I'd rather have water than a sweetened drink especially with HFCS and I'd prefer my child had that choice as well (and she does use it). We do reuse and recycle the bottles but if the choice is a bottle with water in it and one with crap in it that has its own environmental nightmares then I'll take the water.

      Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

      by CSI Bentonville on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 05:32:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I stopped using the styrofoam (6+ / 0-)

    At work I started using my own coffee cup for coffee or tea, and a quart-sized jug for water.

  •  Nice work. (5+ / 0-)

    If only my family could be as disciplined.

    Don't Legitimize Fox News.
    "Democrats have the heart to care."

    by jeepdad on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:41:04 PM PDT

  •  Favorite diary of the day (12+ / 0-)

    It's positive, and it's something we can all actually do.

    I also like the philosophy of it.  

    I'm an "environmentalist" since I was a child.  My parents were both Repubs, but my Mom had a lot of common sense and a great heart.  

    When I was little, maybe four or five, we'd be walking in the woods, or in a park, and I'd want to take home flowers, or whatever, and my Mom would say "no, you can't pick that".

    I'd say (like my own five year old son says now):  Why not?

    And she'd say "because if everybody did it, there wouldn't be any flowers left for anyone to enjoy".  

    That always stuck with me.  

  •  I'm curious about which site (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sj, sobermom, AllisonInSeattle, jlms qkw

    says 50 pounds = .72 trees. It seems a bit light.

  •  Been using the same travel mug for 15 years. (13+ / 0-)

    I use the odd plastic soda bottle that comes our way for travel water, refilling it from the tap.

    The odd, inevitable paper cup becomes a seed-starter pot, or gets recycled.

    Been recycling continuously since 1970 (everything I can't reasonably compost).  I avoid as much as possible anything that comes in a non-recyclable container.  I've stopped buying favored brands because they shifted to non-recyclable packaging (and written angry letters to the product manufacturers).

    Most of what I recycle get used multiple times for other things before its recycled.  On average, it takes us (a family of four now) two weeks or more to generate one kitchen can's worth of stuff to go to the landfill and I'm working on reducing that even more.

    It's really not very difficult.

    Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

    by sxwarren on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:00:55 PM PDT

  •  I do exactly the same thing . . . (8+ / 0-)

    have a coffee mug I constantly reuse.

    Of course, washing it out with soap and hot water totally negates any environmental benefits of the paper-related savings.

    Hence, I haven't washed the damn thing for the better part of a decade - on the plus side, there's no chance of anyone stealing it . . .

  •  Two things... (6+ / 0-)

    Check and see if you can switch your power with your utility company. Many utilities will allow you to pay for green energy. Which means that you could cut your carbon footprint in half overnight by paying a little more for electricity.

    Before you install solar panels, look into a solar hot water heater. A solar hot water heaters are dramatically more efficient than photo voltaics. If money is an issue, do a search for "trickle down mat".    

  •  Well, you could make your own coffee... (9+ / 0-)

    with the cold-brew method which is fabulous and the coffee is there when you want it and doesn't get bitter as it does when hot-brewed. You can heat it up (in the microwave) or drink cold and it tastes great (in fact much better I would say) and it lasts well in the fridge until you are ready for it.

    That would allow you to go with beans you know are certified Organic, Free-Trade, and Bird Friendly shade-grown (rather than artificial shade) and then you could also compost the coffee grounds.

    Heh, just something to consider for the next step. The food we consume is another huge area that many people don't think about and yet not only does food production impact our world in huge ways, it is also deeply political and the industrial corporate food companies are a huge reason BushCo is in DC.

    Good for you and even better that you put it in a diary to inspire others. :)

    Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 05:25:37 PM PDT

    •  I could except... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sj, AllisonInSeattle, CSI Bentonville

      my partner HATES the smell of coffee and it makes him just a bit sick. It's banned from the house.

      So my next step will be just to wean myself off coffee entirely :D.

      I agree with you though, I think tomorrow I'll go over to the cafe and ask them what they do with the grounds. I'll take some off their hands and compost them if need be (either with my own composter or in our city compost recycle bin).

      Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

      by wclathe on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:45:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, must be one heck of a partner... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle

        to get you to give up coffee. That might be a deal-breaker for me. :)

        But, you may be in luck. Cold-brewed coffee doesn't have much of an aroma which was something I missed. It does smell faintly chocolate and I suppose coffee-like when I put my nose right up to it. Mind you, I can smell the cigarette of someone in a car next to me when I have my windows up so my nose isn't broken (though it has been -- couple times even). So anyway, what smell there is, is actually better. Mellower yet richer.

        Might give it a try. Don't really need any special equipment. Just a jar, a sieve and maybe a filter along with some fresh grounds. Here's another NY Times article and alternative recipe. The way I do mine is probably a cross between the two. I grind the beans and probably twice as much as I would for a hot pot (but not really more than a French press I think -- my press is rather small). I also use at least half decaf so I can have twice as much coffee than I would be able to handle otherwise. Put it in a jar (about the size that a pot of coffee would be, maybe a bit bigger) then wait about 18 hours and strain first through the sieve and then through a regular paper filter (the basket-style works better than the cone-style I discovered) which I rest in my small sieve that rests on the lip of the jars (okay a second jar isn't a bad idea -- though I make two jars worth at a time and get a week's worth of coffee). I also end up washing the filter out a couple times because the silt seems to clog it and I don't know if that's the cold effect or what (me?). Also, at the start, I wet the grounds, stir with a fork, then add the rest of the water and put up on a shelf. The grounds float to the top and stay there. So about an hour or so before straining I give it a shake and that settles the grounds on the bottom which makes the straining easier (the last usually stay in the jar until cleaned out for composting).

        The other thing is the recipes tout it as a concentrate and I suppose it is. I don't drink it that way though. I drink it straight up and black. It's good at any temp and I'm flat spoiled now. In a fit of lazy a week or so ago I didn't bother to make my weekly batch and pulled down the press (because the drip machine is never coming back) and it was fine for those two days it took me to get back to reality but that first cup from the next cold-brew batch was heavenly and all the more appreciated.

        Heh, my daughter even wanted some of the chocolate mint flavored coffee beans which I would normally shun but wanted to try cold-brewed. It was amazing. Almost like a liquid truffle.

        ~~~~

        Another way to save energy (and your clothes) is to get a fold-up drying rack or two (there are several styles as well as sources) then dry clothes on them year-round. Even in the winter they dry pretty quickly and the clothes (especially the under garments which will become more of an issue sooner than you can imagine) last much longer. I do still tend to dry towels in the dryer (though for a year I didn't even do that) but everything else gets hung so four out of five loads saved.

        Whatever you end up doing I applaud that you are willing to compost and to go so far as to inquire as to what your shop does with its grounds is admirable. Plus I gather your shop is an independent which is another plus. I'd very much be interested in a follow-up to this diary. :)

        Congrats on getting rescued! Great and positive diary.

        Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

        by CSI Bentonville on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:14:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oh he is quite amazing (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AllisonInSeattle

          one of the sweetest, kindest people I know.

          and when we got together neither of drank coffee (former Mormons that we are), but I started to, so, I was the accommodating one ...

          I'll have to try cold brewed in my home office. Thanks :D

          Drying clothes on a rack will definitely be a step in the future.

          Thanks, didn't expect to get 'rescued' :D

          Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

          by wclathe on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:11:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't let me badger you :) (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            AllisonInSeattle

            I've just been so happy with the coffee method so I'm eager to share. Plus I wanted you to have the instructions if you did choose to pursue it. I didn't even think until just now how it doesn't require any electricity to prepare (if consumed at room temp and it is good enough for that).

            My brother converted to Morman after he married his wife. His experiences convinced me it was a religion I didn't want to pursue. I remember his wife being terrified at the idea of anyone in her church a thousand miles away finding out she was living with him pre-marriage as she'd be kicked out of the church. He did give up coffee but it didn't take and now he has his wife drinking it as well. Not sure how that works. :]

            Glad you were able to find each other and your happiness. All three of you sound as though you have a good thing going on. :)

            Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

            by CSI Bentonville on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:35:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  When you get ready to pour that coffee, add (7+ / 0-)

    any cream and/or sweeteners before pouring.

    The swirling action of the pour will mix the additives without the need for a disposable spoon or swizzle stick.

  •  I'm sorry to say.. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wclathe, AllisonInSeattle

    .. That things are never as simple as they seem.
    That ceramic coffee cup, for example: you have to keep
    it for 3 years before you even break even with the
    paper cups you were using, energy-wise. At least trees
    are renewable. Energy is a one-shot thing.

    At least use a glass coffee cup. They generally last
    longer than ceramic cups, and the break-even time is
    rather less than ceramic.

    http://blog.makezine.com/...

    Those compact fluorescents are a good deal, all the
    way around. Make sure you recycle them, to prevent the
    mercury from reaching the environment. It turns out
    that the mercury emissions from CFL bulbs (when they
    burn out) are about equivalent to the mercury
    released by the burning of the coal that would have
    generated the electricity that you would have used
    if you had tungsten lamps instead of CFLs.

    Of course, you
    can recycle the CFLs when they are dead (as is the
    law in CA), and then you're ahead of the game.

  •  Saving energy also means saving money (4+ / 0-)

    Almost every time. Saving the environment means being more efficient, which translates to saving money, so you don't have to earn as much or have more for other things.

    I wish more businesses would get that!

    Well done! We can all do those little things that add up. Reminds me of doing rock work, or brick work. You just keep on keeping on, one little piece at a time, and before you know it you have an impressive wall built. By the time you get into it really well, you have lost weight (saved energy), feel better, and have something to show for it.

    "A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

    by splashy on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:18:29 PM PDT

  •  Good for you! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wclathe, leolabeth

    Great to see this diary, on this so-important topic.

    Hat's off to you both for your committment and follow through.

    Here, have solar hot water system. Just bought high-spin, low water washer. Frig is next.

    Bought a wood stove that pollutes just a tiny bit -- more of a self-sufficient thing, push comes to shove could make one room warm, but the idiot I bought it from is a terrible businessman, don't have it installed yet.

    Need to do some of those windows.

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:09:02 AM PDT

  •  Are you using cloth napkins yet? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wclathe, leolabeth

    And cloth to clean counters, etc.?

    I use washable, reusable cotton in all those cases.

    I'll bet the impact is huge

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:09:57 AM PDT

  •  Love this diary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wclathe, AllisonInSeattle

    It's an important story, well told.

    Thanks.

    Mama, could we buy stuff made in China if we moved there? -- My six year-old son.

    by leolabeth on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:10:23 AM PDT

  •  Baby steps, simple things...great ideas. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle

    Thank you for this -- it's "the little things" that count (or, perhaps a better way to phrase it: "it's the little things that go uncounted that truly make the biggest difference").

    Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
      Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
    Tempest even in reason's seat.

    by GreyHawk on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:18:44 AM PDT

  •  Good, but... (0+ / 0-)

    Coffee is one of those luxuries that brings as much pain to people as you show it brings to the environment.
    The mythical 'Fair Trade' Coffee is an abomination. Its often lower in price than most other specialty coffees . Often, the workers live in squaller as the land owner lives like a king. I remember hearing a plantation owner who imported coffee from his farm in Costa Rica along with coffees from Colombia and Guatemala. I was intrigued . He made an excellent defense for cultivating quality as opposed to the American money making scheme of Fair Trade.
    His own farm sounded like an oasis in Central America. It was not.
    His house in Maine ,his house in Texas and his house in California are tremendous. The mansion on his plantation was stunning, but we are not at the point yet. His glorious speeches about how his workers and himself were equals was all b.s. Their homes he bragged so much about may have been better than a cardboard house, but not by much.
    The same disparity between land owner and worker existed on his supposed utopia like farm as any other, he just purchased some cement.
    Now this is not mentioning the run off to local rivers from the farms waste.
    I am just looking at the human side.

    Coffee may not be as exploitive as diamonds, but it is awful exploitive. Organic and Fair Trade brand names are money makers for Americans, not farmers-who often have to mortgage out years worth of profit just to be certified. In developing countries where coffee is grown, the American profit labeling societies like Fair Trade and Organic often bankrupt farmers, or put them in a cycle of poverty to remain certified. The 'Cause Oriented' American company still maintains their cut and the workers generally suffer, not the land owner-but there are many instances where the land owner does suffer.

    Coffee and Tea are the source of much of the misery in this world, forget the cup. To pick 100 pounds of coffee a farm hand gets about $1.50.
    How much is a pound of certified Organic or Fair Trade coffee?
    Well, the land owner gets their cut, the certifying agency gets their cut and the worker gets their $1.50 for picking 100 pounds of coffee.
    Think about that.
    Your mug is a great idea, but the drink inside it will send many to bed hungry tonight and a few will sleep well and over fed.

  •  Not Very Sound Analysis (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wclathe

    Like many well-meaning articles on taking personal responsibility for reducing global warming, this model is based on opinion, not facts.

    First of all, separate out the life-cycle costs of paper cups (with shields and lids) from the 75-cent benefit from the local coffee shop.  That latter incentive is not based on anything but the business owner's own opinion or knowledge about his own costs.  Clearly, other coffee vendors do not offer the same incentives.  So, it's a "spot" situation.

    Secondly, when you consider the total life-cycle energy costs from acquisition of materials, manufacuturing, transportation, warehousing, dispensing, reclaiming and recycling, it's not clear that the total energy budget of a ceramic or metal cup is any different from the paper cups used over the same period.

    This diary does not attempt to address the costs of obtaining materials, manufacturing, transportation, warehousing, use, washing (with downstream energy consequences of the detergent used, etc.), reuse and disposal of the non-paper cup over it's lifetime, compared with the costs over the same period and same number of uses for paper cups.

    Let's not all rush off and change trivial habits like these without more fully understanding the actual impact.

    That your local coffee shop offers you an incentive to use your own container is nice, and I'm glad you can benefit.  But claiming you're making a small personal change to help the Earth is an opinion and preference not yet supported by any science I can find.

    Just a soul on a roll...

    by CAOgdin on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:28:41 AM PDT

    •  analysis (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle

      This environmental analysis (linked by someone above) does show that using glass and plastic will break even and surpass disposable paper cups pretty quickly (and foam not as quickly)... 39 uses of a paper cup quickly is the break even.. 2 weeks of coffee drinking, closer to three years with foam, but my cafe doesn't use foam.

      But even then, there are two HUGE caveats to this analysis.

      **This analysis only looked at manufacturing energy costs. They didn't look at the cost of land, pollution, transportation, landfill disposal and other such costs which are most likely much higher for disposable cups. A 1000 foam cups (or about 2 years of coffee drinking) takes more energy to dispose of than 1 ceramic cup.

      **Doesn't take into account that most people have reusable cups they've bought already. It's usually not a choice of buying a new reusable cup vs. buying disposable cups,

      it's a choice between using a cup you already have vs. expending even MORE energy by continually creating the need to manufacture new disposable cups.

      Lastly, the point of the diary is to show that making environmentally safe choices (which is definitely true in this case) ALSO is financially or personally rewarding, so I won't be separating those two issues, they are linked.

      Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

      by wclathe on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:32:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you always this much fun? (0+ / 0-)

      And do you suppose that we can all continue to use all this throw-away crap till the end of time -- and have an environment that will support us?

      Your argument, taken to extreme, is completely absurd.

      Let's all DO rush to change trivial habits -- then the total changes won't be remotely trivial.

      PS
      You might not have read the whole diary, but this couple is doing FAR more to lessen their impact on the environment.

      Be good to each other. It matters.

      by AllisonInSeattle on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:57:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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